0:00:05 > 0:00:07There's a problem with our trains.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10They're not working.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13Trains are late, overcharged, overcrowded.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17Complaints of cancellations, delays.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19- TANNOY:- Southeastern apologises
0:00:19 > 0:00:23for this late running and the inconvenience caused.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27And ticket price increases have become a thorn in the side of train
0:00:27 > 0:00:30companies who transported more than a billion passengers
0:00:30 > 0:00:32in the UK last year.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35They take not a blind bit of notice.
0:00:35 > 0:00:36I think they're very contemptuous.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Crap service. Lower fares.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Protests over train company plans to cut back on guards
0:00:42 > 0:00:44have also left commuters hot...
0:00:46 > 0:00:48..bothered...
0:00:48 > 0:00:49Crap service. Lower fares.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51..and at breaking point.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55Write to MPs, I've tried to contact the Transport Select Committee.
0:00:55 > 0:00:56- No-one cares.- Yeah.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Five very different passengers on one busy commuter train
0:01:03 > 0:01:07have had enough and have agreed to take on the seemingly impossible.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Why don't YOU take over your own train
0:01:13 > 0:01:15and run it yourselves?
0:01:17 > 0:01:19They're going to attempt to bid for a franchise
0:01:19 > 0:01:21to run their own train line.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25- You as commuters are going to run Southeastern?- Yeah.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31Can they persuade the Department for Transport
0:01:31 > 0:01:34that they could do a better job than the industry bigwigs?
0:01:34 > 0:01:36I don't think anybody's attempted this before.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38It's not normal. It's never been done before.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40It is literally ground-breaking.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Will the voice of the commuter count for anything...
0:01:43 > 0:01:45I could run it better than that bunch of monkeys.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47As they embark on this mammoth journey,
0:01:47 > 0:01:51they'll find out just how complex the train industry is.
0:01:52 > 0:01:53Most people would say,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56"What on Earth do you want to be at that business for?"
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Who really owns our train companies?
0:01:58 > 0:02:02British commuters are essentially subsidising German, French
0:02:02 > 0:02:04- and Dutch commuters. - They are, indeed.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Why some services are so shambolic...
0:02:06 > 0:02:09It's like all the crap is dumped on us.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13..and whether THEY can ever be improved.
0:02:13 > 0:02:14When someone says,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17"Do you want the opportunity to find out what's possible?",
0:02:17 > 0:02:19you have to say yes. You have to go for it.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23This is the David and Goliath struggle...
0:02:26 > 0:02:29..of the passengers that took on the train line.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40A packed commuter train heading into Central London.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46If I can't find a handful of disgruntled passengers
0:02:46 > 0:02:49willing to take on the behemoths of the train industry here,
0:02:49 > 0:02:53then quite frankly, I'm not going to find them anywhere.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58It's very frustrating in my day.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00Especially in the mornings, when they're delayed,
0:03:00 > 0:03:01the trains are delayed
0:03:01 > 0:03:04and I feel that we're never going to get to work.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Every night, you just want to get home and, of course,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10you're waiting for a train that sometimes never comes.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12It's like all the crap is dumped on us.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16And we're still paying the same premium that everybody else pays.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21I miss putting my kids to bed, I miss seeing my wife.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24She's tired, you know, she's only up for another hour or so from when I
0:03:24 > 0:03:27get home, so if I'm delayed by half an hour then, you know,
0:03:27 > 0:03:29I don't get to see her.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31You kind of do the washing, put the dishwasher on,
0:03:31 > 0:03:33eat some dinner and go to bed and do it all again.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41For those relying on some of the UK's
0:03:41 > 0:03:43busy urban commuter train networks,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47these complaints have become a depressingly familiar story.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52And as this protest over the poor service provided by one particular
0:03:52 > 0:03:54London rail company shows,
0:03:54 > 0:03:58passengers are no longer prepared to put up with it.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00Beyond bad. It's beyond farce.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03- It's immoral if not fraudulent and illegal.- Yeah.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08It seems quite clear where the core problems in the system are.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11Delays, overcrowding, ticket pricing,
0:04:11 > 0:04:13customer information, or lack of,
0:04:13 > 0:04:16and dirty, out-of-date trains.
0:04:18 > 0:04:23Since when did 21st-century train travel mean cattle-class conditions?
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Commuters often say that they're treated like livestock,
0:04:29 > 0:04:31but are they?
0:04:31 > 0:04:32Come on, sheep.
0:04:34 > 0:04:35Go on.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37There are 44 pages of regulations
0:04:37 > 0:04:40governing the transportation of sheep like these.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44Strict rules about overheating and overcrowding.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48There are no such rules on a commuter train.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Train operators can pack them in as much as they want.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Southeastern Rail, which covers London,
0:04:57 > 0:04:58Kent and parts of East Sussex
0:04:58 > 0:05:01earned the lowest customer satisfaction rate
0:05:01 > 0:05:02in the country last year.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08So when the franchise to run this line came up for sale,
0:05:08 > 0:05:09it got me thinking.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13Could I persuade any of its disgruntled passengers to buy it?
0:05:20 > 0:05:22It's not an original idea.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25The 1950s Ealing comedy, The Titfield Thunderbolt,
0:05:25 > 0:05:28saw villagers take over their train line.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30A railway of your very own.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Just a pipe dream. A castle in the air.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37For you, perhaps but not for them.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39They ran a railway of their own.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41But that was then.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44And this is now.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46That was fictional.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48Oh, adieu.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50How very delightful.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54And we're proposing to do it for real.
0:05:56 > 0:05:57'I'm meeting Phil Marsh,
0:05:57 > 0:06:01'one of the rail industry's most respected experts who has experience
0:06:01 > 0:06:05'of winning contracts for multi-million pound franchises.'
0:06:08 > 0:06:11'Is our proposed passenger takeover even possible?'
0:06:12 > 0:06:15So, Phil, what would you say if I put to you
0:06:15 > 0:06:18a proposition, which is that
0:06:18 > 0:06:21the commuters take over the train line?
0:06:21 > 0:06:25That they bid, that they put together a credible plan,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28put it to the Department for Transport
0:06:28 > 0:06:31and see whether they can run the line instead.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33In theory, you can do it.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35All you've got to do is get a bunch of commuters together.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38They need to have certain skills, seriously good management, finance,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40safety, organisational skills.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42They need to understand the railways,
0:06:42 > 0:06:43but a lot of commuters can do that.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47The amount of people that commute into the city on Southeastern,
0:06:47 > 0:06:51there's got to be probably 1,000 people that are qualified.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53If you're going to do it, now's the time to start
0:06:53 > 0:06:55because you've got two years to do it, probably.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58So you need three months, as they say, to mobilise,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01ie, you get in touch with everybody,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04you set up a website saying, "Who wants to run a franchise?
0:07:04 > 0:07:06"It's you, running your trains, for you."
0:07:07 > 0:07:10- Then...- See, look, you got excited there.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13- Well, it's...- When you thought about that, you got excited.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17Let's hope Phil's optimism is infectious.
0:07:18 > 0:07:20Because just getting your head around
0:07:20 > 0:07:24the complex ownership structure of the train operating companies
0:07:24 > 0:07:26is enough to make anyone head for the hills.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Imagine this is the 12.15 Virgin train from Manchester to London.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34It's partly owned by Virgin, which is a private company,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38but it's partly owned by Stagecoach, which is publicly listed.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Which means you or I could buy shares.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45Quite a few franchises are run by the most unlikely companies.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48If you take the Caledonian sleeper, that is run by Serco,
0:07:48 > 0:07:50who also run prisons.
0:07:51 > 0:07:53But then it gets complicated.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57I mean, take the 12.33 Southeastern from Maidstone.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00That has a number of parent companies but ultimately
0:08:00 > 0:08:03a quarter of it is owned by the French government.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06These people here on platform four
0:08:06 > 0:08:09are waiting to board the Greater Anglia service.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12That is solely owned by the Dutch government.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15And the driver of the Chiltern train into Birmingham,
0:08:15 > 0:08:19he works for Arriva and who ultimately owns them?
0:08:19 > 0:08:20The German government.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25It turns out that about 3/4 of Britain's train companies,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Britain's privatised railways, have in fact been renationalised.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31They're just owned by other countries.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41So can a small but perfectly formed group of commuters
0:08:41 > 0:08:45at the end of their tether even compete on that playing field?
0:08:45 > 0:08:48I have bought a fine selection of peanuts and crisps
0:08:48 > 0:08:52that I hope will bribe these people into giving up six months
0:08:52 > 0:08:55of their life to buy a train line, run a train line.
0:08:58 > 0:08:59- Thank you.- Hi.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Hello. Come in, come and sit over here. That's it.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04Just over there.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Until today, these passengers have never met.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10How was everyone's journey?
0:09:10 > 0:09:12Surprisingly all right.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Was it? Brilliant.
0:09:14 > 0:09:15Thank you so much for coming.
0:09:15 > 0:09:16I appreciate you putting,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18you know, taking time out to come this evening.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21I've got an idea and I want to put it to you.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24Why don't YOU take over your own train
0:09:24 > 0:09:27and run it yourselves? You can do it.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29We've all asked ourselves, "Could we do better than they can?"
0:09:29 > 0:09:31- Oh, definitely. - Yeah, every time.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33- Yeah.- You know, "How can they be so bad?
0:09:33 > 0:09:35"Surely it can't be that hard."
0:09:35 > 0:09:36It's not actually that far-fetched.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39You know, considering all the whingeing we've been doing,
0:09:39 > 0:09:42considering everything we throw at Southeastern when they give us...
0:09:42 > 0:09:43- We can't be worse. - Yeah, quite.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46What better bunch of people to run a train franchise,
0:09:46 > 0:09:48a rail franchise, than passengers?
0:09:48 > 0:09:52This is Phil. He's our ace in the pack.
0:09:52 > 0:09:57Phil has worked for British Rail, Railtrack, franchise,
0:09:57 > 0:09:59franchises that have been successful.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Phil, what do we need?
0:10:01 > 0:10:04What do we need to make this happen?
0:10:04 > 0:10:05Patience and hard work.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09And structure.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13And the first thing of the structure is to form a company which is meant,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15if you know, is quite as simple as even buying one off the shelf.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17It's not a big deal
0:10:17 > 0:10:21but it's not a company like you might run for yourself.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26You need to have a serious company with lots of financial backing,
0:10:26 > 0:10:28lots of expertise.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30It's all out there as you're travelling on the trains
0:10:30 > 0:10:31with your fellow commuters,
0:10:31 > 0:10:35because there must be a selection like you times 10,000.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37It's completely mad but I like it.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41It's the voice of the customer so it's the most powerful thing.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45So if you've got people who do it everyday instead of execs
0:10:45 > 0:10:48and people who probably don't do it,
0:10:48 > 0:10:52then you've got a great insight as to where the problems lie.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56We buy and sell and create and form companies every single day and
0:10:56 > 0:11:00there's probably less skilled people in the room doing it than us.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04In fact, I can tell you there is less skilled people in the room.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06How could we do this? Where do you start?
0:11:06 > 0:11:08It's such a big commitment.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11Yeah, and just getting the right people to do it at the right time
0:11:11 > 0:11:15and kind of ploughing on.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Maybe I've had one too many beers.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18Of you five now sitting there,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I'm going to ask you a very simple question. In or out? In or out?
0:11:21 > 0:11:23- In.- In.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25- In.- In.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26Definitely in.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30We've got our core team
0:11:30 > 0:11:33so now we need to figure out what sets us apart.
0:11:40 > 0:11:44This newly formed group have just six weeks to launch a franchise
0:11:44 > 0:11:45application from scratch.
0:11:46 > 0:11:51And as commuters, they think they have a trump card up their sleeve -
0:11:51 > 0:11:54putting commuter concerns at the top of their agenda.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57If we are trying to set up a people's franchise,
0:11:57 > 0:12:00it's important that we've spoken to the people.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02Excuse me, are you a Southeastern commuter?
0:12:02 > 0:12:04What sort of things would you like to see?
0:12:04 > 0:12:06I think there could be longer trains.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09- We always hear about signalling problems.- OK.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12I could run it better than that bunch of monkeys.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15So here I am, trying to prove that I can. We'll see!
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Better customer service. More trains, punctuality, longer trains.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21Cheaper tickets. Anything that...
0:12:21 > 0:12:23- All of the above.- All of the above.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26If there were particular things that have driven you mad about
0:12:26 > 0:12:28Southeastern that you'd want us to be changing first?
0:12:28 > 0:12:29Being on time.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31In terms of the train you'll get home tonight,
0:12:31 > 0:12:34- do you expect to get a seat? - Probably not.- Probably not?
0:12:34 > 0:12:37- You genuinely think it's overpriced? - Yeah, it is overpriced.
0:12:37 > 0:12:38I agree with you, as well.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Is your train on time tonight?
0:12:40 > 0:12:42No, I think it's just been cancelled.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44- OK.- Do you know why?- No.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47It seems like there's a little bit of rain.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49It stops. A little bit of sunshine, it stops.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51A little bit of snow, it stops.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54- Yeah.- You think the service is good?- Yeah.
0:12:54 > 0:12:55He thinks the service is good!
0:12:55 > 0:12:57He'll learn.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00The passengers have come up with a three-point pledge.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02Seats for everyone.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06Better communication and a timetable that works.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Our unique selling point is that we don't lie to our customers
0:13:11 > 0:13:14and we've got the improvements
0:13:14 > 0:13:17that have to be made on the lines to make sure...
0:13:17 > 0:13:20to ensure that the trains we're running, A,
0:13:20 > 0:13:24that they are big enough to carry everybody...
0:13:24 > 0:13:27We're putting this proposal together and we're going to be
0:13:27 > 0:13:30raising this money to do the pitch for the franchise,
0:13:30 > 0:13:32then it seems to be screaming
0:13:32 > 0:13:35that we need to have money for investment.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42And as the others canvass opinion on the platform,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46fellow campaigner James is finding it a tougher sell at home.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50The plan is to put together a company
0:13:50 > 0:13:55that can put a viable bid in for the franchise.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00- OK.- Yeah.- So you as commuters are going to put a bid together
0:14:00 > 0:14:03to run Southeastern?
0:14:03 > 0:14:04Yeah.
0:14:04 > 0:14:05Right.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10- OK.- You know, I moan about it, so why don't I do something about it?
0:14:10 > 0:14:12Yeah, and then you'd actually have to run it.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15Yeah. With the help of the commuters.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17You'd have to run one of the biggest companies...
0:14:19 > 0:14:21- ..in the South East.- Mm.
0:14:23 > 0:14:24Like, you could...
0:14:24 > 0:14:27The bid could actually be successful.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30What an opportunity, though.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32I would be inclined to say...
0:14:33 > 0:14:35..go for it, but don't mess up.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Cheers.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46The commuters now have a name for their franchise bid.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49LSE Rail - The People's Railway.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53But behind the slick looking website things aren't quite so professional.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56We don't have an office or anything yet.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00We've been surviving in various pub back rooms and cafe terraces,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03so this is the brains of the operation.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06I'm just checking the website's live, which it is.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08One of the most important things we needed
0:15:08 > 0:15:10was a central place to direct people.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12So we threw together a nice website.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16It's put together in a few days by all of us.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Communication with passengers is a key concern for the group,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23so Ollie wants to ensure that the lines are always open.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25We've got our height of technology phone.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27Hopefully it'll ring at some point.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29I'll just set up the voicemail.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Ooh!
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Calls to this number are barred, so our phone line doesn't work.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39Thank you for calling. I'm afraid there is no-one available
0:15:39 > 0:15:40to take your call currently.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43There's currently no-one available to answer your call.
0:15:43 > 0:15:44Your call is important to us,
0:15:44 > 0:15:47but there is currently no agent available to take your call.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55Go-Ahead, the company that owns Southeastern,
0:15:55 > 0:15:59made well over £100 million in profit across the whole
0:15:59 > 0:16:01of its transport portfolio last year.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06And the Southeastern franchise, the one we're bidding for,
0:16:06 > 0:16:09was given to them without any competition.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12But this time they do have competition.
0:16:12 > 0:16:13Us.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18But running a train company is a huge task
0:16:18 > 0:16:21and we need to know what the Government expects from our bid.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25This is a passport and it's the first stage of the process
0:16:25 > 0:16:27of buying a train line
0:16:27 > 0:16:30and what you have to demonstrate is that you know what you're doing.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33That you have technical expertise, you know how to run a train,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36and here's a key thing. Commuter satisfaction.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Collaboration with stakeholders and with the community.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42So surely that means us?
0:16:42 > 0:16:46They want new blood, they want fresh ideas and that's what we've got.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50And, secondly, you need experts on board, people who've done it before.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53They don't want any schmuck. Everything hinges on this.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Basically, you don't do this properly and you're out of the game.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04So the hunt for those all-important rail experts is on.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16As the only commuter in the group with contacts in the city,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20it's fallen on finance manager Ross to make the first move.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23I'm here by myself, the first meeting by myself.
0:17:23 > 0:17:28I'm flung into situations that are quite ad hoc in work,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31but never something of this scale, or size.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35So the pressure's on. The pressure's definitely, definitely on.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Today he'll try to secure the support of Mark Winter,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42a former banker turned rail freight entrepreneur.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Probably the best place to start is to explain me and who I am
0:17:45 > 0:17:47and who I'm representing.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51So there's a group of commuters that have kind of gotten together.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Our aim is put together a bid for the franchise.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Yeah. It's a laudable ambition,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01but you face enormous challenges to, you know, get it across the line.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04And I guess it's, you know, a question of whether you can gather
0:18:04 > 0:18:07the right kind of momentum by drawing into your project
0:18:07 > 0:18:11the right kind of experts that you're going to need.
0:18:11 > 0:18:12None of us that are involved in this
0:18:12 > 0:18:15know that we're anywhere close to being experts.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17We're just commuters,
0:18:17 > 0:18:21so everyone feels they've got a real stake in it and it's run
0:18:21 > 0:18:22by the people for the people.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24You've got to understand, fundamentally,
0:18:24 > 0:18:26you're going to be running a train company,
0:18:26 > 0:18:29and all these other things are add-ons.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32They're all laudable and good things to try and achieve,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35but you're fundamentally running a train company.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38I'll probably just cut straight to the chase.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41We would like you to be involved in it.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43Some of the stuff you've been involved in,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I think you've got first-hand experience of how challenging
0:18:46 > 0:18:48it's been and you can give us a lot of guidance to steer from it.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51I don't know how you imagine this is going to work.
0:18:51 > 0:18:53My world is slightly different.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57I have no particular aspiration to operate trains at the moment.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02Yeah, that's quite disappointing.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07Probably need to regroup and actually just talk through with folk
0:19:07 > 0:19:09what we've seen today, what we've talked about
0:19:09 > 0:19:11and kind of what our options are.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15It's a knock-back so early in the campaign.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17- After you.- Oh, thank you.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21But not to be derailed, the team have hatched a new recruiting plan.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23- Good morning.- Good morning.
0:19:26 > 0:19:27Good morning, you're listening
0:19:27 > 0:19:29to BBC Radio Kent Breakfast with John and Maggie.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31Thank you very much for joining us this Thursday morning.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34Chrissy and Ollie are going all out to attract rail experts
0:19:34 > 0:19:36that actually use Southeastern
0:19:36 > 0:19:39and have a vested interest in fixing the problems.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45So, Christine and Oliver, you actually want to...
0:19:45 > 0:19:47- We want... - You want to be a rail company?
0:19:47 > 0:19:49We want to be a rail company. Yeah, definitely.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51I mean, it's very exciting for us.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54From a serious point of view, how far do you expect to get with this?
0:19:54 > 0:19:58When someone says, "Do you want the opportunity to at least, you know,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01"find out what's possible?" You have to say yes, you have to go for it.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04At the moment we're asking people if they can lend their time,
0:20:04 > 0:20:06if they can lend their resources to us.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08We're looking for people who've got the expertise.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10So who are looking for?
0:20:10 > 0:20:12You can give them a bit of a shout out now if you want.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15We need a company secretary, we need an HR director,
0:20:15 > 0:20:17negotiation specialists.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21We need regulatory experts, we need safety and standards specialists.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23Our focus now is the next four weeks.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27If we don't find these people, if we don't get the required resources,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30then this could be all over before we've begun.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43It's been almost a week since the radio call-out
0:20:43 > 0:20:47and we still haven't got any industry experts signed up.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51I'm off to see the one expert who has been with us since the start,
0:20:51 > 0:20:53rail franchise specialist, Phil Marsh.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57I'm hoping he's had better luck boosting the numbers.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59I have made I don't know how many phone calls,
0:20:59 > 0:21:02but it's in the dozens and dozens.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05Most of them do not want to get involved
0:21:05 > 0:21:07because they're involved in other franchise bids,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10or they're working for a franchise.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12OK. I'm pretty worried, you know?
0:21:12 > 0:21:16Because they've got nobody on board, they've got no experts.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18Not one, not a single person,
0:21:18 > 0:21:22and we've got less than four weeks to get this thing in.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24All this has demonstrated to me
0:21:24 > 0:21:26is what I've suspected over the last 20 years.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29The barriers to entry with franchising are so high.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32I think scepticism is another barrier to entry.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36They don't want to join a group that they don't know
0:21:36 > 0:21:39because it may rock the boat for future franchise bids.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41- It's a closed shop. - I was just going to say.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44- It is a closed shop. - Is it the case, Phil,
0:21:44 > 0:21:46that if we get one big name on board that there'll be a kind of domino
0:21:46 > 0:21:49- effect of people?- I think so.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52You get them on board and it gathers a bit of momentum and that's what we
0:21:52 > 0:21:56need, and I think the more of a basis of a team on the top tier of
0:21:56 > 0:22:00management we can show people, they will be more inclined to sign up.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05No-one said it would be easy,
0:22:05 > 0:22:07but we believe there has to be a better way
0:22:07 > 0:22:09to successfully run a train network.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14And there is.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16Switzerland.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22Like us, they have a competitive franchise system, and like us,
0:22:22 > 0:22:24huge passenger pressure.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30But unlike us, they have a rail system that works.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34Clean, efficient, on time and the passengers love it.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40Chrissy and I have come to Zurich, one of Europe's busier stations,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43to see what our bid can gain from some Swiss thinking.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Look at that. It looks like a blooming Concorde, doesn't it?
0:22:46 > 0:22:48Yeah, yeah! Do you notice something about the board?
0:22:48 > 0:22:50Yeah, everything is working, everything's going.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53- There's no cancellations. - There's not one delay.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56- No.- Not one delay. - Not one delay. Wonderful.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58I think we should live here.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04You know, if you were to say things that you want from a station,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07you know, when you go in as a commuter, what are the things...?
0:23:07 > 0:23:10Well, I think you need to have clear communication
0:23:10 > 0:23:12- of what's going and if not why?- Yeah.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15- Clean. Cleanliness, definitely. - Yeah.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18But it looks very nice. It's very nice. It looks lovely, doesn't it?
0:23:18 > 0:23:21Really clean, well kept.
0:23:21 > 0:23:25It just feels like the 21st century as opposed to the 19th century...
0:23:25 > 0:23:27That we're living in. Yeah, exactly.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32We're meeting with Daniel Ackermann who works for Switzerland's
0:23:32 > 0:23:33largest train company, SBB.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38It's owned by the government, but operates like a private company.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42It just seems to be going so well, you know?
0:23:42 > 0:23:44Everything seems to be very smooth.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46What are we doing wrong?
0:23:46 > 0:23:50It's a repeated timetable from the morning at six until at least ten at
0:23:50 > 0:23:54night. So every train leaves at the same minute to the same destinations
0:23:54 > 0:23:58every half an hour. So you actually don't need a timetable,
0:23:58 > 0:24:00you just know it by heart.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03Of course, we do have cancellations from time to time.
0:24:03 > 0:24:04You can have an engine failure,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07you can have a tree on a power line or something like that,
0:24:07 > 0:24:10but it's sort of rather a rare occasion, basically.
0:24:13 > 0:24:14On the train to Basel,
0:24:14 > 0:24:17Chrissy wants to know how the Swiss deal with problems that bring
0:24:17 > 0:24:21Southeastern to a grinding halt, like faulty trains.
0:24:21 > 0:24:26So in all your time driving one of these high-speed trains,
0:24:26 > 0:24:28do they break down very often, or...?
0:24:28 > 0:24:32Absolutely not. It's very rare that the train can really not run.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35If you have some small problems,
0:24:35 > 0:24:38but the small problems may be things that the passenger
0:24:38 > 0:24:41will not recognise.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43If the train can maybe not run,
0:24:43 > 0:24:47there are some trains in reserve we call,
0:24:47 > 0:24:48then we take another one.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51And what happens if, say, you're not well?
0:24:51 > 0:24:53Do they have another stand-by driver?
0:24:53 > 0:24:55Absolutely, yes.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59So, Adrian, will we on time getting into Basel?
0:24:59 > 0:25:02Yes, we will arrive in about four minutes in Basel.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04- Fantastic.- On time.- Fantastic.
0:25:05 > 0:25:10It's just a given in Switzerland that poor service is not an option.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14It must be very easy access, it must be personal,
0:25:14 > 0:25:18it must be linked and connected and it must be very easy to use.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20You do not even need to think one second how to use it.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23Like a toothbrush. You don't think, you just use it.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25Go to the bathroom, use the toothbrush.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27We just use the public transport system like that.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31Rather than waiting for things to go wrong,
0:25:31 > 0:25:35maintenance staff walk the track nightly to locate tiny cracks in the
0:25:35 > 0:25:38track and fix them way in advance.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45OK, he's now cutting out a section of the track so we can change
0:25:45 > 0:25:49the two slightly damaged sections
0:25:49 > 0:25:51that we've got here in front.
0:25:53 > 0:25:56And because they're all given longer franchises,
0:25:56 > 0:26:00the train operators here have an incentive to invest long-term.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02They WILL get their money back.
0:26:02 > 0:26:03In a way, they were laughing.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06It was almost embarrassed laughter because it was like,
0:26:06 > 0:26:09"we can't imagine that we'd run a train system where the timetable,
0:26:09 > 0:26:10"all the trains would say cancelled."
0:26:10 > 0:26:13- No.- Or you wouldn't be even told why a train was cancelled.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15- No.- To them, that's inconceivable.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19There's communication, which I think clearly is the key, isn't it?
0:26:19 > 0:26:21Yeah. Even though they're excellent,
0:26:21 > 0:26:24even though it's the number one train service on Earth,
0:26:24 > 0:26:27they're still saying, well, there's real room for improvement.
0:26:27 > 0:26:28I was like, what(?)
0:26:28 > 0:26:30For us, it's as though it's an afterthought, you know?
0:26:30 > 0:26:35It's just inconceivable how they would even think of us, really.
0:26:35 > 0:26:39One of the key things that we could take back for our bid is basically,
0:26:39 > 0:26:41all the profits that they make, and they do make a profit...
0:26:41 > 0:26:44- Yeah, of course.- Is ploughed back into the transport system.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46So it's always reinvested,
0:26:46 > 0:26:51and that's why they're able to keep the infrastructure up-to-date.
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Since privatisation the UK rail network has a much more fractured
0:26:59 > 0:27:02ownership structure than the Swiss system.
0:27:03 > 0:27:04We already know that the French,
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Dutch and German governments have huge financial stakes
0:27:07 > 0:27:10in some of OUR train companies here.
0:27:11 > 0:27:15But who is benefiting from the return on THEIR hefty investments?
0:27:18 > 0:27:22Academic John Stittle spent 20 years following the rail privatisation
0:27:22 > 0:27:26scheme and has a personal view on where the profits are going.
0:27:27 > 0:27:3170% of our railways are basically owned by foreign owners.
0:27:31 > 0:27:37How many of those are government owned, so owned by the state railway
0:27:37 > 0:27:42of Germany or Holland or France as opposed to private companies?
0:27:42 > 0:27:44Ultimately, a lot of the profits
0:27:44 > 0:27:46are distributed in the form of dividends and it's
0:27:46 > 0:27:48going to support their railways.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51Going back in the last 14, 15-year period,
0:27:51 > 0:27:54there's probably been about £3.5 billion
0:27:54 > 0:27:57that have left the franchise,
0:27:57 > 0:28:01which had they not have been a privatised company,
0:28:01 > 0:28:06- those funds could've been reinvested in the railway industry.- Wow!
0:28:06 > 0:28:07It's amazing, really.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11The UK Government can't run them, but overseas companies,
0:28:11 > 0:28:13state companies can, and they do.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17And we heard a couple of years ago the German Ministry of Transport was
0:28:17 > 0:28:21actually saying, "We're skimming off the profits on our investments
0:28:21 > 0:28:24"in the UK to reinvest in Deutsche Bahn."
0:28:24 > 0:28:28So basically, British commuters are essentially subsidising German,
0:28:28 > 0:28:32- French and Dutch commuters. - They are indeed, yes.- Wow.- Yes.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40We've got just two weeks to get the first stage of our application in,
0:28:40 > 0:28:43but we're still struggling to sign up those all-important experts.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47If anybody's interested, we are trying to set up a people's railway,
0:28:47 > 0:28:49run by the people for the people.
0:28:49 > 0:28:53If we can get just one on board, we're hoping others will follow.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56We're a group of commuters that have come in together
0:28:56 > 0:28:59to look at replacing Southeastern as the rail franchise
0:28:59 > 0:29:00at the end of 2018.
0:29:03 > 0:29:07So city high-flyer Ross is giving it one final push,
0:29:07 > 0:29:10and this time he's not taking any chances.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14I do that thing where, it's in a film musical,
0:29:14 > 0:29:17that if you're nervous, you just think, "What would Madonna do?"
0:29:19 > 0:29:22And, er, in Desperately Seeking Susan.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24He's managed to get a meeting with Colin Greenslade,
0:29:24 > 0:29:29a strategic planner, who's held very senior positions at Network Rail,
0:29:29 > 0:29:32British Rail and the rail regulator.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35- Pleased to meet you.- And you. - Are you well?- Yes, sir. Yourself?
0:29:35 > 0:29:37Yeah, good, thanks.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40If Ross can get Colin to join our bid,
0:29:40 > 0:29:43we'll have a top expert on board and the leverage
0:29:43 > 0:29:45to get others interested.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48We've called ourselves London and South East's Railway,
0:29:48 > 0:29:50it's the people's railway.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52At the minute, we've got some asset management accountants,
0:29:52 > 0:29:54economists, marketing.
0:29:54 > 0:29:55So that's where you come in.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57Yes.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00So we are looking for you to join us,
0:30:00 > 0:30:04and to support us in any way that you can to get us
0:30:04 > 0:30:05through this process.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09Anything that you do do would probably send quite big ripples
0:30:09 > 0:30:12across industry to say that this is something that's new,
0:30:12 > 0:30:15it's never been tried before and these people are willing to...
0:30:15 > 0:30:17And I think that's, that's the positive.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19It's novel and it's a strength, really.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22The commuters are showing an interest in their own service.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25Any help you can give us at all would be greatly appreciated.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28No commuter group has ever stepped forward to run a train franchise
0:30:28 > 0:30:31before and I think, you know,
0:30:31 > 0:30:34that difference of perspective fetches something new to this
0:30:34 > 0:30:35and something fresh.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39I'm happy to impart my information and knowledge
0:30:39 > 0:30:40and see where that takes us.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43- That'd be amazing. Thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50So Madonna would now take her clothes off
0:30:50 > 0:30:52and pour beer over herself.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56Yeah, that was... That was awesome. That was really good.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59Hi, Ollie, it's Ross.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01'How did it go?'
0:31:03 > 0:31:07Well, what would you want me to say to you?
0:31:07 > 0:31:09CHUCKLES
0:31:09 > 0:31:12'What would be good news this point?
0:31:12 > 0:31:16'OK, whoever you've met is amazing and wants to jump on board
0:31:16 > 0:31:18'and is going to put their name to half the passport.'
0:31:18 > 0:31:20All of that.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22'Amazing!
0:31:22 > 0:31:27'Oh, good, well, I'm glad someone's had a good day.'
0:31:27 > 0:31:28It's a major result.
0:31:28 > 0:31:30With Colin Greenslade now on board,
0:31:30 > 0:31:34other experts have since come rolling in.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36And as far as the franchise bid is concerned,
0:31:36 > 0:31:40the passengers are one step closer to taking on the train line.
0:31:44 > 0:31:45But if we're going to win it,
0:31:45 > 0:31:49we've got to prove that we have an idea that makes us stand out.
0:31:54 > 0:31:58Phil Marsh has brought me and Ross to Hampshire
0:31:58 > 0:32:01to visit a heritage railway line that he thinks could provide us
0:32:01 > 0:32:04with some innovative ideas for our business model.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11It is really exciting.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14Such a romantic way to get to work.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16You'd have to dress up, though.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20You'd need to wear... You could do, like, an old-school city gent.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23I mean, this looks incredible but what's the relevance to us?
0:32:23 > 0:32:25It's a medium-sized business.
0:32:25 > 0:32:29It employs a lot of people but crucially does not pay a dividend,
0:32:29 > 0:32:32so all profits are reinvested back into the company.
0:32:35 > 0:32:39If we're to model our franchise on this small but perfectly formed
0:32:39 > 0:32:40Mid Hants line,
0:32:40 > 0:32:44the £25 million profit Southeastern's owners Go-Ahead made
0:32:44 > 0:32:46from its trains in the last financial year
0:32:46 > 0:32:49could go towards improving the service.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54The fact that this line is run not-for-profit is crucial
0:32:54 > 0:32:56to its success as a line.
0:32:56 > 0:33:00The railway has made a profit for the last 15 years and all that
0:33:00 > 0:33:02profit has been reinvested back into the railway,
0:33:02 > 0:33:05- which is why it all looks so magnificent.- Right. Wow.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08So you think the fact it looks like Harry Potter isn't putting you off?
0:33:08 > 0:33:11We're on our way to Hogwarts, aren't we?
0:33:13 > 0:33:16I didn't really know what the benefit was coming here
0:33:16 > 0:33:19because it's... You think it's a bit geeky and it's a bit,
0:33:19 > 0:33:20"Oh, it's steam engines,"
0:33:20 > 0:33:23but actually they turn a profit, they're really smart,
0:33:23 > 0:33:25and a really, really smart enterprise.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30If we were to run Southeastern Rail like this,
0:33:30 > 0:33:33we'd be Britain's first train operating company to plough all our
0:33:33 > 0:33:35profits back into the service.
0:33:41 > 0:33:45That would be £25 million in profits not going to shareholders
0:33:45 > 0:33:47but back into the trains.
0:33:47 > 0:33:52Now, 25 million, that's a lot of money to you or me.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55But how much would that actually buy us on the railway?
0:33:57 > 0:34:01I've come with Chrissy and a new recruit to our franchise committee,
0:34:01 > 0:34:04Summer Dean, to a train manufacturing company.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09Adrian Shooter's been in the business for nearly 50 years
0:34:09 > 0:34:14and, until 2015, was chairman of Chiltern Rail and London Overground.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18When it comes to how far your money can stretch in this game,
0:34:18 > 0:34:20he's the man to talk to.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24I don't know how much a train costs.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28We're thinking at the moment, like, we've got about 25 mil to play with.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31What, does that, will that buy a carriage?
0:34:31 > 0:34:32Will that buy a seat?
0:34:32 > 0:34:35Your, your 25 million
0:34:35 > 0:34:38would certainly buy a ten-carriage train.
0:34:38 > 0:34:40You'd have a certain amount of change left over.
0:34:40 > 0:34:44You wouldn't have enough for two 10-carriage trains for 25 million.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46- One train.- You can essentially buy one train.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49You can buy one and a bit trains, I suspect.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52We're going to have to look at another option other than buying,
0:34:52 > 0:34:54actually physically buying a train.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58And something else we've learned today is that most rail franchise
0:34:58 > 0:35:00owners don't bother buying their trains.
0:35:00 > 0:35:04A typical train operator's franchise lasts for only seven years.
0:35:04 > 0:35:08So is there any incentive to invest in trains that they don't own?
0:35:09 > 0:35:12Ooh! Really lovely, isn't it?
0:35:12 > 0:35:14- It is just like a Tube train.- Yeah.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18It's got 44 seats but it's also got lots of standing space,
0:35:18 > 0:35:24and this train is ideal for moving a lot of people not a huge distance
0:35:24 > 0:35:26but doing it quickly.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29And with the four doors, so we can get people on and off quickly,
0:35:29 > 0:35:33so we can keep that dwell time down so that you can run a more frequent
0:35:33 > 0:35:35service of trains.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38How far would our 25 million take us in terms of refurbishment?
0:35:38 > 0:35:44If you spent between £100,000 and £200,000 per coach,
0:35:44 > 0:35:47you would see a noticeable difference.
0:35:47 > 0:35:51It's clear to us how we would spend that 25 million.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55But all this talk of rail companies making huge profits isn't a view
0:35:55 > 0:35:57shared by everyone.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Other train operating companies, often seen as the bad guys,
0:36:00 > 0:36:02just misunderstood.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08I'd really like to dispel this myth
0:36:08 > 0:36:12that train companies are making a huge amount of money.
0:36:12 > 0:36:13They're most certainly not.
0:36:13 > 0:36:18If you were looking from outside the industry as a business proposition,
0:36:18 > 0:36:21where safety is so important,
0:36:21 > 0:36:24customer service is absolutely vital,
0:36:24 > 0:36:27and then you're getting the sort of returns,
0:36:27 > 0:36:31maybe only 2% or 3% profit on turnover,
0:36:31 > 0:36:34most people would say, "Well, what on Earth do you want to be
0:36:34 > 0:36:35"in that business for?"
0:36:38 > 0:36:41So if there's not as much in it for train operators as we think,
0:36:41 > 0:36:43then why do they do it?
0:36:46 > 0:36:49Someone who has scrutinised the railway industry
0:36:49 > 0:36:52is Manchester Business School professor, Karel Williams.
0:36:52 > 0:36:56In 2013, he conducted a study, commissioned by the TUC,
0:36:56 > 0:36:59into the franchise system.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02His findings showed a privatised rail structure that relies upon
0:37:02 > 0:37:07billions of pounds of hidden subsidies and government incentives.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13Well, let's think about it in terms of the cafe analogy.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16You and I are going to open a cafe.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20First of all, we lease all the kit,
0:37:20 > 0:37:23the tables, the chairs, the coffee machine.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26We're not going to invest in any of that.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28We're going to lease it.
0:37:28 > 0:37:33And we're renting the premises from a very friendly landlord who spent a
0:37:33 > 0:37:36lot of money improving it and has now lowered the rent
0:37:36 > 0:37:39specially for us.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Which is basically Network Rail,
0:37:42 > 0:37:44which owns the track
0:37:44 > 0:37:48and should be charging track access charges.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53It does, but it charges super low track access charges
0:37:53 > 0:37:57which don't reflect the cost.
0:37:57 > 0:38:01So those super low track access fees that Network Rail charges train
0:38:01 > 0:38:05operating companies are subsidised by guess who?
0:38:05 > 0:38:10The taxpayer is directly subsidising the train operating companies.
0:38:10 > 0:38:12So as it turns out,
0:38:12 > 0:38:16we kind of have a nationalised rail service
0:38:16 > 0:38:18but we pretend that we don't?
0:38:18 > 0:38:21Public expenditure on the railway system has more than doubled
0:38:21 > 0:38:23since privatisation began.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27It's currently costing taxpayers £4 billion a year.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30And then at the end,
0:38:30 > 0:38:34suppose we've misjudged the suburb in which we've opened this cafe.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36Despite the low rent,
0:38:36 > 0:38:40despite the fact that we didn't have to invest in the fittings,
0:38:40 > 0:38:44we've leased it all, we're still making a loss week by week.
0:38:44 > 0:38:47We have an arrangement with the government that we can walk away
0:38:47 > 0:38:50with very little penalty whatsoever.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53There's no essential downside, pretty much.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56If the profit doesn't materialise,
0:38:56 > 0:39:00you can walk away without any serious consequences.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09After weeks investigating what their core pledges should be,
0:39:09 > 0:39:11the group have come up with a clear way
0:39:11 > 0:39:14of creating a better rail system.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17Reinvest in the system,
0:39:17 > 0:39:20refurbish trains to deal with overcrowding,
0:39:20 > 0:39:25and greater transparency and communication with the customer.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29They've got their core pledges in place,
0:39:29 > 0:39:32but so far the passengers behind the LSE rail bid
0:39:32 > 0:39:36have been operating from the back of pubs and spare rooms.
0:39:36 > 0:39:40Finally, thanks to a supporter of the campaign pulling a few strings,
0:39:40 > 0:39:42they have an office.
0:39:43 > 0:39:45The whole place is just empty.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48It is just a giant new block which they've built.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50No-one's using any of the offices.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54James, through his connections, has basically sorted it out for us.
0:39:54 > 0:39:55- OK.- Fantastic.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58215's where we can have meetings.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02And kind of, just basically, try and impress people.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10We've reached the deadline for the first stage of the bid application,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13with a full board of rail specialists signed up.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21Ollie, you already look like you're running things.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25We've got 130 years' worth of railway experience now,
0:40:25 > 0:40:26or something. It's incredible.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28I honestly didn't think we'd get to this point.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31It's been a long journey to get here,
0:40:31 > 0:40:34yet all that we've really done is fill out the pre-qualification
0:40:34 > 0:40:37questionnaire, which is the process that determines whether we can be
0:40:37 > 0:40:40shortlisted to tender for the franchise.
0:40:43 > 0:40:45So this is it, guys. This is the moment.
0:40:45 > 0:40:46Yeah.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49That's it. Attach.
0:40:50 > 0:40:51Upload confirmation.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55- Yikes. - Yikes, exactly!
0:40:55 > 0:40:58Well done, guys. You've done it, you've done it.
0:40:58 > 0:40:59- You've done it.- We're in.
0:41:01 > 0:41:03What's it like, having a railway company?
0:41:08 > 0:41:11The passengers have done something that's never been done before.
0:41:11 > 0:41:15They've submitted a bid to run their own train line.
0:41:15 > 0:41:20And they have got serious rail people believing in the idea.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23And their fate as a rail company
0:41:23 > 0:41:26is now in hands of the Department for Transport.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Rail industry expert Phil Marsh,
0:41:31 > 0:41:33who has been with us from the outset,
0:41:33 > 0:41:37believes that what the passengers have done today is unprecedented.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40I mean, do you think what we've done is different?
0:41:40 > 0:41:43I don't think anybody's attempted this before.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46You can hire consultants to fill out an application
0:41:46 > 0:41:48but it might cost you £200,000.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50So therefore, what we've done for nothing,
0:41:50 > 0:41:54absolutely zilch, it's not normal, it's never been done before.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56It is literally ground-breaking.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58We've signed up a top lawyer,
0:41:58 > 0:42:01top safety expert, top marketing manager,
0:42:01 > 0:42:03a permanent way engineer,
0:42:03 > 0:42:06we have got a top team that is credible.
0:42:06 > 0:42:07Let's see what they do.
0:42:07 > 0:42:09I genuinely cannot wait.
0:42:12 > 0:42:15It's been an amazing few weeks, actually.
0:42:15 > 0:42:16And it's real now.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19If we could pull this off, it would be fantastic.
0:42:19 > 0:42:21Absolutely...
0:42:22 > 0:42:25Why not? We're trying our best, aren't we?
0:42:35 > 0:42:38It's been three weeks since the passport application went in
0:42:38 > 0:42:41and I've been called to an urgent meeting by Phil.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44So, Phil, you tell me that we've got some news?
0:42:45 > 0:42:49Yes. The Department for Transport has said that we need to know,
0:42:49 > 0:42:53before we start really assessing your passport application,
0:42:53 > 0:42:56and spending taxpayers money on it,
0:42:56 > 0:43:00have you got £50,000,000 in assurity?
0:43:00 > 0:43:05So... My initial response, because I have a slightly mischievous side,
0:43:05 > 0:43:08was to say did you want it cash or a cheque?
0:43:08 > 0:43:12There was nothing about this in the passport application form,
0:43:12 > 0:43:16absolutely nothing in it in the process, the policy documents,
0:43:16 > 0:43:19the confidentiality agreement, there was nothing in it.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21So you think...
0:43:21 > 0:43:25- They're changing the rules. - Without telling you.
0:43:25 > 0:43:28'This is a major hitch in our bid.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31'So we're calling a group meeting, to work out our next move.'
0:43:31 > 0:43:33- 'Hello, Chrissy.'- Hello, Phil.
0:43:33 > 0:43:34- 'Are you all right?' - Very well, thank you.
0:43:34 > 0:43:36Waiting with bated breath.
0:43:36 > 0:43:38Hello, Phil, how are you?
0:43:38 > 0:43:39ALL: Hi!
0:43:39 > 0:43:42Where are you? Where are you?
0:43:42 > 0:43:44'I am currently on a beach in Amsterdam.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47Are you sitting down, because we have some news,
0:43:47 > 0:43:49Phil's got some news.
0:43:49 > 0:43:51I am. Oh, dear.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54I have heard back from the Department for Transport,
0:43:54 > 0:43:57about the passport application.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00- Right.- They wondered whether I could
0:44:00 > 0:44:04show them that I've got 50 million quid before they market.
0:44:04 > 0:44:0650 million?
0:44:06 > 0:44:08LAUGHTER
0:44:08 > 0:44:10'We better start checking behind the sofa, then.'
0:44:10 > 0:44:12I've got two, three, four, five...
0:44:12 > 0:44:14£8, £7, is that enough?
0:44:18 > 0:44:21So they're just trying to frighten us into backing out,
0:44:21 > 0:44:24- with the threat of money? - 'Into submission, yes.'- Yeah.
0:44:24 > 0:44:26That's what they were doing, scaremongering, weren't they?
0:44:26 > 0:44:28I think they're just trying to raise the bar, you know,
0:44:28 > 0:44:31too high for us, basically, you know, I think.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33Oh, my God.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37I've never done fundraising in my life...
0:44:37 > 0:44:39apart from a cake sale.
0:44:40 > 0:44:45I don't think any of my cakes are going to make us anywhere near that.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47I think they're trying to scare us.
0:44:47 > 0:44:48Definitely.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53We've come so far in our bid to take over Southeastern Rail,
0:44:53 > 0:44:57but this is a reminder of the multi-million pound companies
0:44:57 > 0:44:59we're up against.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01Are we fighting a losing battle here?
0:45:04 > 0:45:06I've got a meeting with Louise Ellman,
0:45:06 > 0:45:10who's the chair of the Parliamentary Committee for Transport to find out
0:45:10 > 0:45:13what the passengers should do next about the passport.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18So, Louise, I don't know if you know about our project,
0:45:18 > 0:45:21but it's essentially we're getting the commuters
0:45:21 > 0:45:22to bid for the franchise.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25Southeastern commuters to run their own line,
0:45:25 > 0:45:28which sounds like an insane idea until, actually,
0:45:28 > 0:45:30you look at what we've done.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33We've put together an incredibly credible plan.
0:45:33 > 0:45:37The department should definitely be looking at a variety of bidders.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41They have to look at a financially sound and viable plan.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43That is absolutely essential.
0:45:43 > 0:45:44But once that is established,
0:45:44 > 0:45:47they should welcome a variety of bidders who will put passengers at
0:45:47 > 0:45:51the centre of things. That's what public service should be all about.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55It's really good to hear you say that because all we've met with
0:45:55 > 0:45:57so far have just been obstacles,
0:45:57 > 0:46:01or the appearance of openness and accountability but then, actually,
0:46:01 > 0:46:04when push comes to shove, then suddenly the walls are put up.
0:46:04 > 0:46:09So we were asked to raise £50 million up front that could prove
0:46:09 > 0:46:12that we had financial viability.
0:46:12 > 0:46:17Well, financial viability is very important and that has to be there,
0:46:17 > 0:46:18but once that's established,
0:46:18 > 0:46:22I think it's very important that people are committed to running that
0:46:22 > 0:46:24- service.- You are the person,
0:46:24 > 0:46:27the one person in that building over there in Parliament who's actually
0:46:27 > 0:46:31been questioning what's going on and so what have you concluded?
0:46:31 > 0:46:35Well, use of the railway has expanded and that is very welcome,
0:46:35 > 0:46:39but often there's not really focus on the needs of the passenger.
0:46:39 > 0:46:43In the conventional franchising process, we're told that
0:46:43 > 0:46:46the passenger view is part of the consideration,
0:46:46 > 0:46:50but it's not really very open about how that's done and indeed whether
0:46:50 > 0:46:54it's done, and all the information that we're increasingly getting
0:46:54 > 0:46:58shows us it's the passengers who are losing out and whether its
0:46:58 > 0:47:01passengers in overcrowded carriages,
0:47:01 > 0:47:03never able to get a seat,
0:47:03 > 0:47:07whether its passengers on lines that simply aren't working and it seems
0:47:07 > 0:47:10that the passengers' interest is really left behind.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13So I'd have thought the Department should welcome something with the
0:47:13 > 0:47:14passenger right at the centre.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Brilliant. You think we shouldn't give up?
0:47:16 > 0:47:20Don't think you should give up. Keep going.
0:47:20 > 0:47:23So now all we've got to do is find £50 million.
0:47:25 > 0:47:30If there's one person in our team who can do it, it's Ross.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33It's a bit annoying that they're asking us to do that when there's
0:47:33 > 0:47:36other people I doubt have been asked to do the same.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39I think it's a question of how do we play this?
0:47:39 > 0:47:43So I sort of feel, and the other guys feel,
0:47:43 > 0:47:46that you know about money.
0:47:46 > 0:47:51There would need to be some serious business cases put in play before we
0:47:51 > 0:47:54could even entertain it, and even then it'd be difficult.
0:47:54 > 0:47:56Have you done deals with 50 million quid?
0:47:56 > 0:47:58Much, much, much more.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02So Ross and Phil are off to a City fundraising evening
0:48:02 > 0:48:04to pitch to potential investors.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08I have never asked for £50 million.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11I've sometimes misplaced £50 million,
0:48:11 > 0:48:13but I've had to find it quickly.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15As you do!
0:48:15 > 0:48:18So you become quite desensitised when you work in the industry,
0:48:18 > 0:48:21but it's still a lot, a lot, a lot of money.
0:48:21 > 0:48:24So there's a lot of pressure riding on this.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31This exclusive event is being hosted
0:48:31 > 0:48:34by the biggest social investment bank in the UK.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40This is a group of passengers, from what I understand.
0:48:40 > 0:48:41How many passengers are involved?
0:48:41 > 0:48:44- There is... The core group are six of us.- OK.
0:48:44 > 0:48:48The common theme is everyone's quite passionate about it, you know?
0:48:48 > 0:48:51We pay you lots of money every year, we don't get much back.
0:48:51 > 0:48:53- You're paying an incredible amount of money.- Yeah.
0:48:53 > 0:48:56'Because we want to reinvest all profit back into improving the
0:48:56 > 0:49:00'service, Ross and Phil are focusing on a particular group of investors
0:49:00 > 0:49:03'who are looking for projects with social benefit.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08'They need the offer of a pledge to the tune of £50 million to fulfil
0:49:08 > 0:49:11'the Department for Transport's requirements.'
0:49:11 > 0:49:13What we're trying to marry
0:49:13 > 0:49:17is disenfranchised commuters with rail industry experts and actually
0:49:17 > 0:49:21- running the franchise.- Just like a community interest group, I suppose.
0:49:21 > 0:49:23Yeah, along those lines.
0:49:23 > 0:49:27If you can quantify the value you're bringing to the local area,
0:49:27 > 0:49:29then that's very attractive.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31Yeah. So we want to kind of make it a partnership,
0:49:31 > 0:49:35more akin to what John Lewis does where people get skin in the game.
0:49:35 > 0:49:38They feel really kind of passionate about what they do.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40So operate on a partnership basis.
0:49:40 > 0:49:44So, they're looking for the wow factor, so it's...
0:49:44 > 0:49:48balancing the social impact and the return.
0:49:49 > 0:49:53We need people to understand that it's run by normal people for normal
0:49:53 > 0:49:56people to reinvest back into that community.
0:49:56 > 0:50:01The money I'm using to invest, I'd rather it be invested in a company
0:50:01 > 0:50:06that's actually utilising my money for greater good
0:50:06 > 0:50:08rather than for just pure return.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11Having piqued the interest of investors,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13Ross and Phil make their move.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16So you're still interested in it?
0:50:16 > 0:50:18Absolutely. So it'd be great to have you guys in.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20We'll work with you guys to arrange a time to come in.
0:50:20 > 0:50:25We'll bring a larger group of the other passengers who are involved in
0:50:25 > 0:50:29this along with yourself and we can talk over what you're looking to do.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37The commuters followed up with a meeting and convinced investors
0:50:37 > 0:50:41their franchise bid is worth a £50 million financial pledge -
0:50:41 > 0:50:43on condition they go through to the next stage.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49Despite the bar being raised,
0:50:49 > 0:50:53the commuters have managed to jump right over it, and just in time.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57So now all they've got to do is convince the Department
0:50:57 > 0:51:01for Transport that they're ready to take on the train line.
0:51:01 > 0:51:03Two o'clock, Department for Transport.
0:51:03 > 0:51:04That's where I'm going now.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06We've done everything that's been asked of us
0:51:06 > 0:51:09and it's just a question of, can the Department for Transport,
0:51:09 > 0:51:13do they have the imagination and the guts to actually do what they say
0:51:13 > 0:51:17they want to do, which is to bring in other people to run this thing?
0:51:17 > 0:51:21We've done everything and now it's just a question of, do they see it?
0:51:24 > 0:51:27- Hello.- Hello.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30- Good afternoon. How are you? - All right.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36I've got your back, but I don't want to have to step in.
0:51:36 > 0:51:39- I'm going to stay outside, guys, OK? Good luck.- See you soon.
0:51:39 > 0:51:43- See you later.- All right, my love. - Good luck. All right. Good luck.
0:51:47 > 0:51:51The Department have vetoed filming during the meeting,
0:51:51 > 0:51:54so now I'm playing the waiting game until they're done.
0:52:09 > 0:52:10Well, that was fun.
0:52:11 > 0:52:14I think we all feel like dressed-down schoolchildren.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16What did they say? What did they say?
0:52:16 > 0:52:20- What did they say?- Obviously when they saw that we were a group of
0:52:20 > 0:52:22commuters, they were quite shocked,
0:52:22 > 0:52:24- but they went with it.- Shocked?
0:52:24 > 0:52:28Sadly they're saying that we didn't have enough evidence
0:52:28 > 0:52:31and we didn't answer the questions fully enough.
0:52:31 > 0:52:35The level of detail that they wanted was like War And Peace.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38We challenged them a lot because they kind of started off by saying
0:52:38 > 0:52:42they'd tested this process to make sure the likes of us could go
0:52:42 > 0:52:45through this at the same level as the likes of Govia.
0:52:45 > 0:52:49I don't believe that that's remotely honest or fair.
0:52:49 > 0:52:53They even said that they expect this to be filled out by a bid team over
0:52:53 > 0:52:56three or four months where one person is responsible for one
0:52:56 > 0:53:00question and then they have a team and they have lawyers.
0:53:00 > 0:53:03- For each section?- How on Earth do they think that anyone other than
0:53:03 > 0:53:06the likes of Govia or someone that's turning over a billion every three
0:53:06 > 0:53:08- months is going to do it? - We did pass two sections.
0:53:08 > 0:53:09- Yeah.- Right, OK. Go on.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12The mandatory rejection ones cos we're not drug runners or money
0:53:12 > 0:53:14- launderers. We passed that one. That was cool.- OK.
0:53:14 > 0:53:16Did you get a sense that any of this was about improving
0:53:16 > 0:53:19the railway, about making things better for commuters?
0:53:19 > 0:53:22Not in the slightest. This was a government procurement process.
0:53:22 > 0:53:25There's nothing about the railways, nothing about improvement,
0:53:25 > 0:53:28nothing about customer service, about failings.
0:53:28 > 0:53:29The whole system is futile.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32What is the point? We've done our best.
0:53:32 > 0:53:36We're not a multi-billion euro or pound or dollar organisation,
0:53:36 > 0:53:38transport industry.
0:53:38 > 0:53:41You'll never succeed. You will not succeed.
0:53:41 > 0:53:42It's as simple as that.
0:53:42 > 0:53:46'The Department for Transport argues that it does award franchises
0:53:46 > 0:53:48'through open competition,
0:53:48 > 0:53:52'but it's vital that anyone bidding passes rigorous financial capability
0:53:52 > 0:53:54'and health and safety tests.
0:53:54 > 0:53:57'It was their view that we didn't meet that criteria.'
0:53:57 > 0:54:00I'm pissed off, you know. I've taken a lot of time...
0:54:00 > 0:54:04We've all taken a lot of time out of our days, our life to try and put
0:54:04 > 0:54:07this together and it feels like when you look at it now,
0:54:07 > 0:54:11two months ago there was someone setting up a tripwire which we
0:54:11 > 0:54:13fell over, but we didn't realise it.
0:54:13 > 0:54:17Today has been quite upsetting, hasn't it?
0:54:17 > 0:54:20- It's been devastating. - Well, devastating.
0:54:27 > 0:54:30Since we were turned down by the Department for Transport,
0:54:30 > 0:54:34Louise Ellman's Transport Select Committee have declared the entire
0:54:34 > 0:54:37rail franchising system not fit for purpose.
0:54:39 > 0:54:43Our big idea, to upgrade the overcrowded Southeastern Trains
0:54:43 > 0:54:45so they have wider doors and more space
0:54:45 > 0:54:47has been echoed by the Mayor of London.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52And some MPs have called for longer term franchises,
0:54:52 > 0:54:55rather like the system we saw in Switzerland,
0:54:55 > 0:54:59to encourage operating companies to invest in their lines,
0:54:59 > 0:55:00just as we proposed.
0:55:02 > 0:55:06Despite the Department for Transport admitting to me that services on the
0:55:06 > 0:55:10Southeastern Rail network have been unacceptably poor for too long,
0:55:10 > 0:55:14neither the Rail Minister or Southeastern itself wanted to be
0:55:14 > 0:55:18interviewed about future commuter involvement in the franchise system.
0:55:25 > 0:55:29It's been a long journey of discovery for the commuters and I
0:55:29 > 0:55:31want to know if it's been worth it.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35- What do you think?- For us, I think it's definitely the end of the road.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39I think the government and the DFT and everyone involved in it
0:55:39 > 0:55:41has sent very clear signals.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44But we were doing what the government have asked for.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46We came up with the solutions
0:55:46 > 0:55:48for what is the problem with the Southeast.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50Our solution was bang on.
0:55:50 > 0:55:52- I know.- It was bang on!
0:55:52 > 0:55:54But they didn't... They just didn't want us.
0:55:54 > 0:55:56It was us!
0:55:56 > 0:55:58Our solution was right, they didn't want us.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01That guy said to us, when we went in there,
0:56:01 > 0:56:05"We had to see you. We consulted our legal experts, we had to see you."
0:56:05 > 0:56:07- That's a very good point. "We had to see you." Yeah.- Didn't he?
0:56:07 > 0:56:11- Not, "Wanted to see you." - They shot us down very quickly,
0:56:11 > 0:56:15but it seems that they're using a lot of our ideas.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18Talking here about putting customer representation.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20That's exactly the wording.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23You know, this is exactly what we were saying to the DFT
0:56:23 > 0:56:25that we wanted to provide.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28This was what was on our leaflets, on our website.
0:56:28 > 0:56:31This is all the stuff that we sat in the DFT meeting going,
0:56:31 > 0:56:33"This is the stuff that people care about."
0:56:33 > 0:56:38It seems that they're taking a lot of what we've asked for on board,
0:56:38 > 0:56:41so for that, I think it's wonderful because I'm still commuting,
0:56:41 > 0:56:44- we're all commuting.- So we achieved something?- So we've achieved.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47If we have sort of knocked some sense into it
0:56:47 > 0:56:49and that they can realise,
0:56:49 > 0:56:52actually, this is what normal people who commute every day,
0:56:52 > 0:56:56- this is what they want.- It's one thing to sign a change.org petition,
0:56:56 > 0:56:58but to follow that up and then say,
0:56:58 > 0:57:01- "I'm happy to give out leaflets, I'm happy to do this."- Yeah.
0:57:01 > 0:57:04This is how we found each other and look where we got to.
0:57:04 > 0:57:06Do you think in this day and age that this is the way that people get
0:57:06 > 0:57:10- heard?- We didn't achieve exactly what we wanted because we're not
0:57:10 > 0:57:13running a train, you know, our own train service.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16LSE Rail isn't to be,
0:57:16 > 0:57:21but we have achieved something in the fact that if things change and
0:57:21 > 0:57:23the franchise bids have changed,
0:57:23 > 0:57:26then that will impact on all our lives.
0:57:26 > 0:57:27Because of the way it's gone,
0:57:27 > 0:57:29we have exposed the system for what it is,
0:57:29 > 0:57:33and I think that's probably the best catalyst for change you can get.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36Cheers. I'm going to drink to that.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38To the people's railway.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41Long may it live. Long may it live!
0:57:41 > 0:57:44- Cheers.- Cheers.- To be continued!