7/7 Bombings

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0:00:03 > 0:00:07I'm Andrew Maxwell, a comedian, but in this new series,

0:00:07 > 0:00:08I'm on a serious mission

0:00:08 > 0:00:11to explore the world of the conspiracy theorist.

0:00:11 > 0:00:14Tonight, 7/7.

0:00:14 > 0:00:16'The top of a bus has exploded.'

0:00:18 > 0:00:21The bombings in London in 2005 was the most shocking event

0:00:21 > 0:00:24in recent British history.

0:00:24 > 0:00:28Four suicide bombers killed 52 innocent people

0:00:28 > 0:00:29and injured over 700 others.

0:00:31 > 0:00:35Unbelievably, there are a number of conspiracists

0:00:35 > 0:00:36who doubt the official version of events.

0:00:36 > 0:00:38And some of them believe

0:00:38 > 0:00:41the British establishment was behind this tragic day.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44It's just to continue the wars in the Middle East.

0:00:44 > 0:00:48It's to get the resources we need to continue into the 21st century.

0:00:48 > 0:00:51I think that's nonsense.

0:00:51 > 0:00:54So I'm taking four of them on an extraordinary journey

0:00:54 > 0:00:55to see if I can change their minds.

0:00:55 > 0:00:58It's not going to be easy.

0:00:58 > 0:01:01There's no evidence to suggest they boarded the carriages.

0:01:01 > 0:01:04It just seems incredibly, incredibly coincidental.

0:01:05 > 0:01:09It's me versus them as we go down the M1 from Leeds to London

0:01:09 > 0:01:11to see where the attacks happened.

0:01:11 > 0:01:12We're going to try and do this.

0:01:12 > 0:01:15You have your instructions and your flip cams.

0:01:15 > 0:01:17We'll meet eyewitnesses.

0:01:17 > 0:01:20We know what happened that day because we were there.

0:01:20 > 0:01:22And relatives of victims.

0:01:22 > 0:01:25There's a huge space here where David should be.

0:01:25 > 0:01:28They'll be confronted by experts.

0:01:28 > 0:01:31To suggest that the Government would carry out an attack

0:01:31 > 0:01:34against its own people is quite frankly ridiculous.

0:01:36 > 0:01:39There'll be arguments...

0:01:39 > 0:01:42- I'm not saying who did it. - Tell me who you think did it.

0:01:42 > 0:01:44I don't know who did it.

0:01:44 > 0:01:45..fallouts...

0:01:45 > 0:01:48Don't personally attack me, off camera, no more of it.

0:01:48 > 0:01:49It's bollocks. I made it up.

0:01:49 > 0:01:51..and tears...

0:01:51 > 0:01:53It's not something that should happen to people.

0:01:53 > 0:01:57..as we travel through the day that changed London for ever.

0:01:57 > 0:02:02Welcome to Conspiracy Road Trip 7/7.

0:02:06 > 0:02:13This programme contains some strong language

0:02:13 > 0:02:15- How are you? I'm Jon. - Hey, Jon, how are you?

0:02:15 > 0:02:16Good to meet you.

0:02:16 > 0:02:19Welcome on board. Welcome on board, Andrew.

0:02:19 > 0:02:22- Hi, I'm Davina.- Hello, Davina. - Tony's the name.- Hello, Tony.

0:02:22 > 0:02:24- Hi, I'm Layla.- Hey, Layla, come on board.- Thanks.

0:02:24 > 0:02:26Bing bong, good morning.

0:02:26 > 0:02:27ALL: Good morning.

0:02:27 > 0:02:31Good morning, and welcome to Conspiracy Road Trip 7/7.

0:02:31 > 0:02:32THEY CLAP

0:02:32 > 0:02:35OK. Obviously you're all on the bus

0:02:35 > 0:02:38because you have various doubts and suspicions

0:02:38 > 0:02:41about the official version of events around 7/7, is that correct?

0:02:41 > 0:02:43ALL: Yes.

0:02:43 > 0:02:44Let's see what we can find out.

0:02:47 > 0:02:51Tony, an ex-security worker and CCTV expert,

0:02:51 > 0:02:53believes 7/7 was carried out by the Government.

0:02:55 > 0:02:57Tony Blair was a neo-conservative,

0:02:57 > 0:03:01and I strongly believe that under the Blair government

0:03:01 > 0:03:04it was a purely political motivated false flag operation.

0:03:04 > 0:03:07Layla, journalist and part-time model,

0:03:07 > 0:03:10thinks the official story doesn't add up.

0:03:10 > 0:03:11Our government covers things up

0:03:11 > 0:03:15and doesn't deal with things properly and lies to us about it

0:03:15 > 0:03:17and does things in secret, that's pretty terrifying.

0:03:17 > 0:03:20Or even though they're incredibly scary thoughts

0:03:20 > 0:03:23that our own government could blow us up.

0:03:23 > 0:03:25Jon, a political activist,

0:03:25 > 0:03:28believes 7/7 was to help the Blair government

0:03:28 > 0:03:30continue its war on terror.

0:03:30 > 0:03:33No members of the public ever want war because, usually,

0:03:33 > 0:03:36it's a son or a daughter that is being lost in that war.

0:03:36 > 0:03:40So we needed that excuse to continue this war.

0:03:40 > 0:03:427/7 was our excuse.

0:03:42 > 0:03:45Davina, a law student and recent convert to Islam,

0:03:45 > 0:03:48doubts whether the four Muslim boys were to blame.

0:03:48 > 0:03:50We don't know enough about them.

0:03:50 > 0:03:52You know, whether or not this was something

0:03:52 > 0:03:55that they were capable of, especially.

0:03:55 > 0:03:58I mean, it is a very big deal that their personalities weren't explored.

0:03:58 > 0:04:00That's a bit of a shame. I mean there's...

0:04:00 > 0:04:02Back in the '70s, the cops in Britain

0:04:02 > 0:04:06did fit up innocent Irish people for terrorist bombings.

0:04:06 > 0:04:10I mean, to have a giant suspicion of the British establishment

0:04:10 > 0:04:12I can understand,

0:04:12 > 0:04:16but does that all add up to Blair and presumably Brown...

0:04:16 > 0:04:20A dozen of them would have had to have been in on it.

0:04:20 > 0:04:22Did they all conspire?

0:04:22 > 0:04:26Did they blow up loads of other Brits in the city centre?

0:04:26 > 0:04:27It doesn't add up for me.

0:04:30 > 0:04:34Over the next week, each of my fellow travellers is going to

0:04:34 > 0:04:37challenge me on a conspiracy theory they believe proves

0:04:37 > 0:04:40the official version wrong, and that the four men who were

0:04:40 > 0:04:45blamed for the attack were set up and weren't responsible.

0:04:46 > 0:04:50Our first stop on our road trip is here in Beeston,

0:04:50 > 0:04:53a poor area of Leeds and home to three of the bombers.

0:04:54 > 0:04:56Mohammad Siddique Khan,

0:04:56 > 0:04:59Shehzad Tanweer

0:04:59 > 0:05:02and Hasib Hussain.

0:05:04 > 0:05:06The first conspiracy theory comes from Davina.

0:05:06 > 0:05:08Davina.

0:05:08 > 0:05:10THEY APPLAUD

0:05:10 > 0:05:15So one of my main concerns in terms of the bombers is, erm,

0:05:15 > 0:05:17where they've come from, so their backgrounds.

0:05:19 > 0:05:23She can't believe these young men could have been terrorists.

0:05:23 > 0:05:26Have they done it because they've been forced to do it?

0:05:26 > 0:05:28I don't understand enough about these four people

0:05:28 > 0:05:31to conclude that they were capable of doing such a thing.

0:05:34 > 0:05:3720-year-old Davina spent her childhood in America

0:05:37 > 0:05:40and converted to Islam just after 7/7.

0:05:40 > 0:05:44Now that I am Muslim I guess sometimes I feel like,

0:05:44 > 0:05:46you know, people find me suspicious.

0:05:46 > 0:05:48I sometimes feel people stare at me a little bit more.

0:05:52 > 0:05:55I want to find somebody in Beeston who can get us in the mindset

0:05:55 > 0:05:57of these supposed terrorist bombers.

0:06:00 > 0:06:03'Detectives from West Yorkshire are moving door to door

0:06:03 > 0:06:05'in the Beeston area tonight.

0:06:05 > 0:06:09'Shame has overwhelmed these families.'

0:06:09 > 0:06:11Oi, turn the camera off!

0:06:11 > 0:06:13They don't want to be seen on camera.

0:06:13 > 0:06:17Ah, because enough times when, when the 7/7 all kicked off,

0:06:17 > 0:06:20half of them were saying stuff, you know when they were talking

0:06:20 > 0:06:22and it were getting all twisted

0:06:22 > 0:06:24and the opposite were getting written in the papers.

0:06:24 > 0:06:29Since 7/7, it's difficult to find anyone who's willing to talk,

0:06:29 > 0:06:34but I've persuaded Sasha, a single mother of four.

0:06:34 > 0:06:36She lived opposite Shehzad Tanweer

0:06:36 > 0:06:39and knew all three of the Beeston bombers.

0:06:39 > 0:06:42OK, everyone, this is Sasha, say hello.

0:06:42 > 0:06:44ALL: Hello. Hi, Sasha.

0:06:44 > 0:06:46Can you take us around some of the spots where they hung out?

0:06:46 > 0:06:48Definitely. Yeah, absolutely.

0:06:50 > 0:06:51What's it like around here?

0:06:51 > 0:06:54It was better before, I must admit.

0:06:54 > 0:06:56Now everybody's scared to talk, no-one's...

0:06:56 > 0:07:00You know, it's just changed everything.

0:07:00 > 0:07:03We feel that they're suspicious of us being suspicious of them,

0:07:03 > 0:07:06- you know, the Muslim community. - Yeah, it's a cycle.

0:07:08 > 0:07:11So this is the house here, you've got the third one,

0:07:11 > 0:07:13the third block, you've got...

0:07:13 > 0:07:17- This was Shezhad's house? - This was his house, yeah.

0:07:17 > 0:07:2022-year-old Shehzad was a sports science graduate

0:07:20 > 0:07:23and lived most of his life in Beeston.

0:07:23 > 0:07:25He worked in the chip shop at the top of the street.

0:07:25 > 0:07:27I was in there on the Tuesday before 7/7,

0:07:27 > 0:07:31so that would have been the 5th, and he was saying that he was

0:07:31 > 0:07:33going to London, and he said, one of his mates asked

0:07:33 > 0:07:36if he was going on the train and he went, "We're hiring a car."

0:07:36 > 0:07:39You know, and he was just all bouncy and like, just like,

0:07:39 > 0:07:42just telling his mates it's, you know, a day out, I think.

0:07:42 > 0:07:4718-year-old Hasib Hussein, the youngest of the bombers,

0:07:47 > 0:07:50was still living at home with his parents.

0:07:50 > 0:07:5330-year-old Siddique Khan was the oldest

0:07:53 > 0:07:55and well known in the community.

0:07:55 > 0:07:57Siddique was a teaching assistant.

0:07:57 > 0:08:01He's got a little girl, a little baby, you know.

0:08:01 > 0:08:03And the police used to ring him up and say,

0:08:03 > 0:08:05"Can you come and help us out with this?"

0:08:05 > 0:08:10Like I say, he was taken on a tour of parliament by our Leeds MP,

0:08:10 > 0:08:13and why would you do that with a terrorist?

0:08:16 > 0:08:20If you look out the window, we're coming up to the Hamara Centre,

0:08:20 > 0:08:23which was reported as being a terrorist recruitment building,

0:08:23 > 0:08:26- you know, it's ridiculous. - Really?

0:08:26 > 0:08:28Anything to do with being healthy and happy

0:08:28 > 0:08:30is what goes on in that building.

0:08:30 > 0:08:35It's all good people doing good work and they were all sullied by this.

0:08:35 > 0:08:38To my surprise, our local resident Sasha

0:08:38 > 0:08:41seems to be supporting Davina's view.

0:08:41 > 0:08:43Those were good Muslim boys.

0:08:43 > 0:08:46They went to mosque, weren't terrorists, worked in the community.

0:08:46 > 0:08:51I really don't believe that they were going to London to kill people.

0:08:51 > 0:08:54- So there you go, that's my stance. - Thank you.

0:08:55 > 0:08:59What I could gather is Sasha was saying that these men were innocent.

0:08:59 > 0:09:02There was nothing unusual about them.

0:09:02 > 0:09:06If you were about to carry out something, you know,

0:09:06 > 0:09:09that horrific, you would keep it on the down-low.

0:09:09 > 0:09:14I don't think that anything she said is persuasive either way,

0:09:14 > 0:09:16it just gives it a little bit of context.

0:09:20 > 0:09:24To counter Sasha and Davina, I've contacted a Muslim academic

0:09:24 > 0:09:27who specialises in the psychology of terrorism.

0:09:30 > 0:09:33- OK. Hello, everyone, you all right? - ALL: Hello.

0:09:33 > 0:09:34This is Dr Russell Razzaque.

0:09:34 > 0:09:38He is a psychiatrist who specialises in the mindset of terrorists.

0:09:38 > 0:09:41I thought it might be quite illuminating,

0:09:41 > 0:09:42particularly for you, Davina.

0:09:42 > 0:09:45Yeah. I've studied a number of terrorists over time,

0:09:45 > 0:09:48the 7/7 bombers, the 9/11 guys,

0:09:48 > 0:09:50and a common theme for everybody who's,

0:09:50 > 0:09:53almost pretty much everybody who's known them and met them,

0:09:53 > 0:09:56that's family, people in the area, neighbours,

0:09:56 > 0:09:58is usually one of enormous surprise.

0:09:58 > 0:10:01Hasib Hussein's mum called the emergency services

0:10:01 > 0:10:05when she heard about the bomb because she thought he was a victim,

0:10:05 > 0:10:07she had no idea. And that really is how it works.

0:10:07 > 0:10:09So with these guys,

0:10:09 > 0:10:13they were sequestering themselves in the Hamara Community Centre

0:10:13 > 0:10:17in Beeston where they would spend, you know, hours and hours

0:10:17 > 0:10:21for kind of weeks and weeks on end up to 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning.

0:10:21 > 0:10:23The place was closed, but they were the only ones there.

0:10:23 > 0:10:25It's almost like they enter a parallel universe

0:10:25 > 0:10:27where just them and a few other people know about what

0:10:27 > 0:10:30they're talking about, and they don't include anybody else in that.

0:10:30 > 0:10:33The grievance can start from a legitimate concern. I mean...

0:10:33 > 0:10:36Was it, it was the invasion of Iraq?

0:10:36 > 0:10:38Yeah, without doubt. Yeah, without doubt.

0:10:38 > 0:10:41That was one of the biggest, one of the single biggest

0:10:41 > 0:10:45recruitment causes for the 7/7 bombers as far as I'm concerned.

0:10:45 > 0:10:47I mean, the stuff that I researched,

0:10:47 > 0:10:50in terms of the actual recruitment process,

0:10:50 > 0:10:51videos of the Iraq war

0:10:51 > 0:10:54where people, innocent women and civilians were being killed,

0:10:54 > 0:10:57were used as part of the recruitment and they were shown to people.

0:10:57 > 0:10:59And that was really going on.

0:10:59 > 0:11:03Now if you add that to somebody who also has experienced some,

0:11:03 > 0:11:06potentially some racism or difficulty within their personal life,

0:11:06 > 0:11:08you can conflate those two things.

0:11:08 > 0:11:11That's when that grievance can really quickly become toxic.

0:11:11 > 0:11:14The doctor was very insightful,

0:11:14 > 0:11:17I think he gave me quite a bit of a psychological analysis

0:11:17 > 0:11:20on what he thought the bombers were like in particular.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23There are, you know, some gaps in the evidence,

0:11:23 > 0:11:25there are some bits and pieces that, you know,

0:11:25 > 0:11:27haven't really been explained a lot.

0:11:27 > 0:11:29Davina's impressed by the psychiatrist,

0:11:29 > 0:11:32but those other questions

0:11:32 > 0:11:35mean she's not giving up on her conspiracy yet.

0:11:39 > 0:11:41Next morning, we're leaving.

0:11:41 > 0:11:45Our four coach trippers are going to recreate the exact journey

0:11:45 > 0:11:48the four bombers took on the morning of 7/7

0:11:48 > 0:11:51as they left Leeds in the early hours for London.

0:11:52 > 0:11:56At 3.59 on 7th of July 2005,

0:11:56 > 0:12:00the bombers are caught on CCTV leaving Leeds.

0:12:02 > 0:12:05Their first stop is the Woodall petrol station

0:12:05 > 0:12:06just outside Sheffield.

0:12:08 > 0:12:10So this is the service station where they stopped

0:12:10 > 0:12:15and he was noted on CCTV going into the service station

0:12:15 > 0:12:19here on the M1, Shehzad Tanweer.

0:12:26 > 0:12:29It's 160 miles down the M1 to Luton

0:12:29 > 0:12:33where the bombers caught the train to London Kings Cross.

0:12:36 > 0:12:41The next conspiracist to put forward their claim is 28-year-old Jon.

0:12:41 > 0:12:45He works for a political group known as We Are Change.

0:12:45 > 0:12:47Can I just give you one of these each please?

0:12:47 > 0:12:48It's very important information.

0:12:48 > 0:12:51We Are Change holds people accountable in positions of power,

0:12:51 > 0:12:53whether that be in politics,

0:12:53 > 0:12:58whether that be in finance or in business or in the corporate world.

0:12:58 > 0:13:00There is a lot of stuff going on under the radar

0:13:00 > 0:13:03that the people don't know about.

0:13:06 > 0:13:10Jon believes that the train times were falsified by the Government.

0:13:10 > 0:13:15They actually made reference to the bombers getting the 7.40am train

0:13:15 > 0:13:18from Luton to Kings Cross.

0:13:18 > 0:13:2112 months later it came out through various sources,

0:13:21 > 0:13:23through the Freedom Of Information Act request

0:13:23 > 0:13:25that that train didn't actually run.

0:13:25 > 0:13:27The Home Office then had to back pedal,

0:13:27 > 0:13:30the police back pedalled and said that the bombers got the 7.25.

0:13:34 > 0:13:36The issue here is that

0:13:36 > 0:13:38if there is one piece of major glaring information that is

0:13:38 > 0:13:42wrong in that account, what else in the account is also,

0:13:42 > 0:13:46you know, fabricated or not true or potentially, you know, wrong?

0:13:47 > 0:13:51Our conspiracists think that even if they had caught an earlier train

0:13:51 > 0:13:54it would have still been difficult for the bombers

0:13:54 > 0:13:56to have reached their destination on time.

0:13:56 > 0:14:00They feel the official account just doesn't add up.

0:14:00 > 0:14:02We're going to try and do this.

0:14:02 > 0:14:05We're going to try and take the 7.24 train.

0:14:05 > 0:14:09Each one of you is going to take the identity/journey of each one

0:14:09 > 0:14:13of the bombers and just see whether time-wise it is actually feasible.

0:14:13 > 0:14:15I have your instructions and your flip cams.

0:14:15 > 0:14:19Jon, you'll be Mohammad Siddique Khan. There's your instructions.

0:14:19 > 0:14:22Davina, you're Jermaine Lindsay.

0:14:22 > 0:14:24Tony, you're Shehzad Tanweer

0:14:24 > 0:14:28and finally, Layla, you're Hasib Hussain.

0:14:28 > 0:14:32I wouldn't suggest you out loud say anything about a bombing

0:14:32 > 0:14:34on...on the film.

0:14:34 > 0:14:35But just try and match it,

0:14:35 > 0:14:39and let's see whether, how close we can get to the official account.

0:14:41 > 0:14:42Here in the car park,

0:14:42 > 0:14:47the three Beeston boys were joined by Jermaine Lindsay from Aylesbury.

0:14:47 > 0:14:51According to the official report and the CCTV footage,

0:14:51 > 0:14:54they set off from their cars at 7.20.

0:14:55 > 0:14:56Everybody all right?

0:14:56 > 0:14:59Even doing it as something like this it's nerve-racking,

0:14:59 > 0:15:01I find it just nerve-racking.

0:15:01 > 0:15:04We've got three minutes to get our tickets and get on the train,

0:15:04 > 0:15:06get on the platform and the train.

0:15:06 > 0:15:08- OK, let's do it.- We'll see you at the other end.- OK.

0:15:10 > 0:15:13Actually, it's not that long a walk at all, is it?

0:15:13 > 0:15:14Yeah, it's not a long walk.

0:15:14 > 0:15:18And we're heading now to the station entrance.

0:15:18 > 0:15:20Just take a shot of that CCTV camera up there,

0:15:20 > 0:15:22it's quite important, that's the shot that took them.

0:15:24 > 0:15:26They're seen entering the station at 7.22,

0:15:26 > 0:15:30which gave them only three minutes to buy their tickets

0:15:30 > 0:15:31and catch the 7.25.

0:15:33 > 0:15:36There's a man at the ticket machine.

0:15:36 > 0:15:39It's 7.22.

0:15:39 > 0:15:41I'm starting to fret that they're not going to make it.

0:15:41 > 0:15:43I mean, we told them not to run

0:15:43 > 0:15:47but also not to sort of stroll along either.

0:15:52 > 0:15:56OK, so we've missed the 7.25.

0:15:56 > 0:15:59So we're going to have to get the 7.32.

0:15:59 > 0:16:02Now Jon's made fact that we're going to be pushing it

0:16:02 > 0:16:06and I've said, "Yeah, we are, I need to detonate mine at 8.50,"

0:16:06 > 0:16:08which is an interesting statement in front of everyone.

0:16:08 > 0:16:10I suddenly realised what I'd said.

0:16:11 > 0:16:15Now on the train, I want my team to find out

0:16:15 > 0:16:18if it's possible to reach their central London destinations by 8.50

0:16:18 > 0:16:20when the Underground bombs exploded.

0:16:22 > 0:16:25Do you think that we would have caught the train, you know,

0:16:25 > 0:16:27if we hadn't fiddled around at the ticket barriers?

0:16:27 > 0:16:30I just don't know how they've done it in time.

0:16:30 > 0:16:31I just don't understand.

0:16:31 > 0:16:34There's loads of city boys, there's loads of people in suits,

0:16:34 > 0:16:38there's loads of people, men and women just on their way to work.

0:16:44 > 0:16:47It would be quite easy to get through with a rucksack bomb

0:16:47 > 0:16:50on your back, very easily indeed.

0:16:50 > 0:16:53So I think at the rate we're going, I will be on time.

0:17:01 > 0:17:07So I'm catching the Piccadilly line service to Russell Square.

0:17:07 > 0:17:10I'm going down the escalators.

0:17:10 > 0:17:12It's quite a long time to think about things.

0:17:12 > 0:17:14They would have to have had a lot of guts.

0:17:14 > 0:17:17They would have had to have true belief and true confidence

0:17:17 > 0:17:19that they're doing it for the right reasons.

0:17:19 > 0:17:22They would have had to just keep repeating it to themselves.

0:17:22 > 0:17:25So I've arrived here at 8.39.

0:17:32 > 0:17:35It's just taken three minutes to walk down St Pancras concourse

0:17:35 > 0:17:37to get to the Underground.

0:17:44 > 0:17:47It's 8.35, I'm now boarding the train to Aldgate.

0:17:47 > 0:17:50It's 8.51 and we're now pulling into Aldgate Station.

0:17:50 > 0:17:53They would have definitely been on schedule to do what they did,

0:17:53 > 0:17:56well within the time, with approximately...

0:17:56 > 0:17:59In fact, on time, which is very spine chilling.

0:18:04 > 0:18:08Tony, Jon and Davina all make their destinations by 8.50,

0:18:08 > 0:18:11the time the bombs simultaneously exploded.

0:18:17 > 0:18:21The Aldgate blast killed eight people, including Tanweer,

0:18:21 > 0:18:23and injured 171.

0:18:25 > 0:18:27I'm very shocked by all that.

0:18:27 > 0:18:31I timed it, I don't know if something went in my head

0:18:31 > 0:18:33as if to say, good God, you know,

0:18:33 > 0:18:36this is something that could have actually been carried out.

0:18:36 > 0:18:39And I think at some point later in the day I'm going to have

0:18:39 > 0:18:42a bit of an emotional moment with myself.

0:18:42 > 0:18:46The Russell Square explosion killed 27 people, including Lindsay,

0:18:46 > 0:18:48and injured over 340.

0:18:52 > 0:18:55Things had to be timed quite precisely for everything

0:18:55 > 0:18:59to have happened at 8.50, 8.50, 8.50 consecutively.

0:18:59 > 0:19:01It has made me doubt the official narrative

0:19:01 > 0:19:03in terms of time speculation like a lot.

0:19:04 > 0:19:08At Edgware Road, the bomb killed seven, including Khan,

0:19:08 > 0:19:11and injured 163 people.

0:19:12 > 0:19:14I've got no discrepancies with the timings.

0:19:14 > 0:19:17I think that, you know, it's more than likely that they could

0:19:17 > 0:19:21have got to those locations in the times that we are given at 8.50.

0:19:21 > 0:19:23I'm still not totally convinced that, that they

0:19:23 > 0:19:25knew what they were up to.

0:19:25 > 0:19:28Or if they did know what they were up to,

0:19:28 > 0:19:31that they weren't somehow coerced into doing those deeds.

0:19:33 > 0:19:35Meanwhile, the youngest of the group,

0:19:35 > 0:19:3918-year-old Hussain, was pacing the streets outside Kings Cross.

0:19:41 > 0:19:45One theory is that Hasib Hussein just freaked out

0:19:45 > 0:19:48and had started to do very, very irrational things.

0:19:48 > 0:19:54And he walked in pretty much a straight line into this McDonald's.

0:19:55 > 0:19:59Mobile phone records show that he tried unsuccessfully

0:19:59 > 0:20:01to contact his three fellow bombers.

0:20:02 > 0:20:06He was here for ten minutes, ten whole minutes by himself,

0:20:06 > 0:20:08and in that time he called his friends.

0:20:08 > 0:20:13The other school of thought is that he was innocent,

0:20:13 > 0:20:16that he was some kind of patsy, and that he was just

0:20:16 > 0:20:20worried about his friends and wanted to check if they were OK.

0:20:20 > 0:20:24Now Hasib Hussein boarded the number 30 bus.

0:20:25 > 0:20:28The number 30 bus was re-routed to Tavistock Square

0:20:28 > 0:20:30due to the Tube bombings.

0:20:32 > 0:20:35This is the BMA, the British Medical Association

0:20:35 > 0:20:36on the corner of Tavistock Square,

0:20:36 > 0:20:38this is where the fourth bomb went off.

0:20:41 > 0:20:46At 9.47, the bus bomb killed 14 people, including Hussein,

0:20:46 > 0:20:48and injured over 110.

0:20:50 > 0:20:52- Hello.- Hello, well?

0:20:52 > 0:20:54Oh, my goodness, what a journey.

0:20:54 > 0:20:57I feel like this guy was really, really lost

0:20:57 > 0:20:59and did not know what to do.

0:20:59 > 0:21:02- Yeah, and aborted his mission perhaps.- Changed his mind.

0:21:02 > 0:21:05And then went back to it in the best way that he could.

0:21:05 > 0:21:07Still, from your experience of the four,

0:21:07 > 0:21:09it could have all happened within that timeframe?

0:21:09 > 0:21:11Oh, totally.

0:21:11 > 0:21:14The coincidence that the bus was diverted to

0:21:14 > 0:21:18the British Medical Association, a building full of doctors,

0:21:18 > 0:21:21makes my conspiracists very suspicious.

0:21:22 > 0:21:24It's just good fortune.

0:21:24 > 0:21:28It's central London, there's doctors everywhere.

0:21:28 > 0:21:31I find it unusual that that was the only bus that was taken

0:21:31 > 0:21:34control of by the Met, trying to make it look like

0:21:34 > 0:21:38the authorities had everything under control.

0:21:38 > 0:21:40And you know, if I was pushed to it I think I would say that.

0:21:40 > 0:21:42- Really?- Yeah.

0:21:42 > 0:21:45You think there's elements in the government that would murder civilians?

0:21:45 > 0:21:48- Oh, absolutely.- For a PR stunt? - Oh, absolutely.

0:21:48 > 0:21:49Well it's not a PR stunt,

0:21:49 > 0:21:51this is to continue the wars in the Middle East, this is to get

0:21:51 > 0:21:54the resources that we need to continue into the 21st century.

0:21:55 > 0:21:58Really? Do you think so?

0:21:58 > 0:21:59It's how the world works, mate.

0:21:59 > 0:22:02It's not quite oil, it's on the issue of the geopolitical landscape

0:22:02 > 0:22:06being re-sculptured for the, for big private enterprise.

0:22:06 > 0:22:09- Yeah.- For example, let's say you're going to bomb Iraq.

0:22:09 > 0:22:11So you're saying it's big business did this?

0:22:11 > 0:22:14- It's big business, absolutely. - You think big business?

0:22:14 > 0:22:16There could be a big business element to it, absolutely.

0:22:27 > 0:22:30The next morning it's Tony's chance to introduce one of his claims

0:22:30 > 0:22:36and it centres around one of his favourite subjects, CCTV.

0:22:36 > 0:22:39What we're going to look at next is the, er,

0:22:39 > 0:22:41is the CCTV issues surrounding 7/7.

0:22:43 > 0:22:4742-year-old Tony is from Selby, North Yorkshire.

0:22:47 > 0:22:52I'm Tony Topping and my...I'm actually a lecturer and researcher.

0:22:52 > 0:22:56Before that I was involved in security, although I can't go into

0:22:56 > 0:22:59too many details about what that was all about.

0:23:01 > 0:23:04So far we've proved the bombers could have got there in time,

0:23:04 > 0:23:09but there's no CCTV evidence after this image in Kings Cross train station

0:23:09 > 0:23:13actually showing them on the Tube or the Underground platforms.

0:23:15 > 0:23:20The police service received no warning about these attacks.

0:23:20 > 0:23:23I'm introducing Tony to Brian Paddick

0:23:23 > 0:23:26who was the Deputy Assistant Commissioner

0:23:26 > 0:23:28of the Metropolitan Police on the day.

0:23:28 > 0:23:33One of the sort of key parts about the 7/7 conspiracy theories

0:23:33 > 0:23:36is the CCTV footage or lack thereof. Tony, do you want to...?

0:23:36 > 0:23:39Yeah, my background is security as well

0:23:39 > 0:23:41and I used to liaise with the police on CCTV issues.

0:23:41 > 0:23:44But on the actual day of the incident,

0:23:44 > 0:23:47we find nothing on the Underground to place the bombers at the scene

0:23:47 > 0:23:51of the crime, and I wondered if you could shed any light on it.

0:23:51 > 0:23:54- Er, I don't know, to be honest with you.- Right.

0:23:54 > 0:23:56Er, there could be a whole host of reasons why that,

0:23:56 > 0:24:01that footage is missing other than it wasn't those guys who did it.

0:24:01 > 0:24:05The system isn't recording properly, one of the cameras is out,

0:24:05 > 0:24:09er, the recording medium was full and a whole series of systems

0:24:09 > 0:24:13that operate that could fail that result in an incomplete picture.

0:24:13 > 0:24:16The difficulty with it is of course

0:24:16 > 0:24:18- it raises suspicions in people's minds.- Yes.

0:24:18 > 0:24:21But the fact is that there is other evidence

0:24:21 > 0:24:24to place the bombers at the scene in terms of DNA and so forth,

0:24:24 > 0:24:28and identity documents and that sort of thing.

0:24:28 > 0:24:33So unfortunately CCTV is not always complete.

0:24:33 > 0:24:34Thanks, mate.

0:24:34 > 0:24:36How is it possible,

0:24:36 > 0:24:39how is it feasible that the most surveyed city in the world,

0:24:39 > 0:24:43all the CCTV footage has either disappeared or didn't work?

0:24:43 > 0:24:45On the bus it didn't work, OK, I'll let that go.

0:24:45 > 0:24:48But on the Tube apparently there was 20 minutes

0:24:48 > 0:24:51where all the CCTV footage was down that morning.

0:24:51 > 0:24:53I'm sorry...

0:24:55 > 0:24:57It reeks of an inside job.

0:24:57 > 0:25:03I would like to see some CCTV evidence of them boarding the train.

0:25:03 > 0:25:06For me personally, as a personal choice, I would like to see that.

0:25:06 > 0:25:08And then I can say, "Yeah."

0:25:10 > 0:25:13Brian hasn't persuaded Tony or Jon at all.

0:25:13 > 0:25:17I wonder if meeting somebody who experienced the bombings first hand

0:25:17 > 0:25:19may help convince them.

0:25:19 > 0:25:23Jacqui Putnam witnessed the Edgware Road Tube explosion.

0:25:23 > 0:25:25Thank you for meeting us, Jacqui.

0:25:25 > 0:25:30So you, on the day of 7/7, you were on the Edgware Road Tube?

0:25:30 > 0:25:35Yes, I was. I walked past Siddique Khan.

0:25:35 > 0:25:40I walked further on and got on the train in the next carriage.

0:25:40 > 0:25:45I know a lot of survivors of this act have had different conclusions

0:25:45 > 0:25:47about what happened that day.

0:25:47 > 0:25:51Well, we know what happened that day because we were there. We saw it.

0:25:51 > 0:25:55Yeah, more importantly who caused it, how it was caused.

0:25:55 > 0:25:59Well, we know who caused it. On my train, it was Siddique Khan.

0:25:59 > 0:26:04They made sure they left enough evidence that it was them,

0:26:04 > 0:26:06erm, and plus they were seen.

0:26:07 > 0:26:14I've spoken to Danny Biddle, who's the worst injured survivor.

0:26:14 > 0:26:18I mean, there are people who say there's no way of proving

0:26:18 > 0:26:21that even these four men blew themselves up.

0:26:21 > 0:26:26Well, Danny saw Siddique Khan reach down and detonate the bomb,

0:26:26 > 0:26:31so I don't understand why people would say that, you know,

0:26:31 > 0:26:33that doesn't make any sense.

0:26:33 > 0:26:35He stood on that platform when I walked past him

0:26:35 > 0:26:38and looked at me and thought, "You might die today."

0:26:38 > 0:26:43He didn't care what kind of person I was. He was going to do that.

0:26:43 > 0:26:48When that happens, when people are blown apart in front of you,

0:26:48 > 0:26:52when you've just got on the train on your way to work,

0:26:52 > 0:26:57you don't see the world in the same way any more after that.

0:26:57 > 0:27:01You live in a different place and you have to spend

0:27:01 > 0:27:05the rest of your life in that place and come to terms with it.

0:27:09 > 0:27:11You know, I mean, Jacqui, I can relate to Jacqui

0:27:11 > 0:27:14because she reminds me of someone that I really care about.

0:27:14 > 0:27:16And I'm sure a lot people on that train as well that went

0:27:16 > 0:27:19through something similar, you know, you could sympathise with them,

0:27:19 > 0:27:21you can empathise with how they felt that day.

0:27:21 > 0:27:23It does, it does get to you, you know.

0:27:23 > 0:27:26I'm beginning to make a bit of progress.

0:27:26 > 0:27:30Jacqui has convinced Davina that the bombers were definitely on the Tube

0:27:30 > 0:27:34and capable of committing the murders.

0:27:34 > 0:27:36My conclusion is that the boys were definitely there,

0:27:36 > 0:27:38atrocities did occur.

0:27:38 > 0:27:41It is something they could have been capable of.

0:27:41 > 0:27:43So that's where I stand at the moment.

0:27:45 > 0:27:47But Jon is more difficult to sway.

0:27:48 > 0:27:50You know, in all due respect to Jacqui,

0:27:50 > 0:27:53there are other eye witnesses that have said that they saw

0:27:53 > 0:27:56where the bomb went off and there was nobody standing there.

0:27:56 > 0:27:59There wasn't a bag there, there wasn't an Asian man on their train.

0:27:59 > 0:28:02So at the moment I'm totally, you know, in two minds.

0:28:12 > 0:28:14Tony's fighting back.

0:28:14 > 0:28:17He's going to present what he thinks is the ultimate conspiracy,

0:28:17 > 0:28:20that even if the bombers were on the Tubes,

0:28:20 > 0:28:23they were just innocent bystanders.

0:28:26 > 0:28:29These four men were hired as patsies. Patsies meaning fall guys,

0:28:29 > 0:28:32patsies meaning people who were set up to do something.

0:28:34 > 0:28:39So I think that these men were hired as part of a training drill.

0:28:39 > 0:28:40They'd been hired as actors.

0:28:40 > 0:28:43These four guys are actually setting out to do what they do.

0:28:43 > 0:28:46Unbeknownst to them there's a secondary operation running

0:28:46 > 0:28:49- of more precision which is intent on inflicting...- Parallel.

0:28:49 > 0:28:50Yeah, parallel, it's parallel.

0:28:51 > 0:28:55Jon agrees with Tony and has more to add to his theory.

0:28:57 > 0:29:00It's been established there was a mock terrorist exercise

0:29:00 > 0:29:05going on in London on 7/7 using the same Tube stations as the bombers.

0:29:07 > 0:29:11Jon thinks this was a Government cover-up for the real attack.

0:29:13 > 0:29:18One of the major smoking guns for 7/7 for me has got to be

0:29:18 > 0:29:23Peter Power's drills that he was running on the morning of 7/7.

0:29:23 > 0:29:26'At 9.30 this morning we were actually running an exercise

0:29:26 > 0:29:30'with over 1,000 people in London based on simultaneous bombs

0:29:30 > 0:29:33'going off precisely at the railway stations it happened this morning.'

0:29:33 > 0:29:36Peter Power went on to BBC and ITV,

0:29:36 > 0:29:42and of the afternoon went on to Norwegian television and said this.

0:29:42 > 0:29:45'Just to get this right, you were actually working

0:29:45 > 0:29:49'today on an exercise that envisioned virtually this scenario?'

0:29:49 > 0:29:51'Er, almost precisely.'

0:29:51 > 0:29:54Peter Power is an ex-Scotland Yard policeman.

0:29:54 > 0:29:58Jon thinks that the four men who were blamed for 7/7

0:29:58 > 0:30:01were duped into playing the part of mock terrorists in Peter's exercise.

0:30:01 > 0:30:04I'm sure if people were just to look at the facts,

0:30:04 > 0:30:06you would be able to actually see it for what it is.

0:30:07 > 0:30:11Peter Powers declined to be interviewed but made a statement.

0:30:11 > 0:30:15"The actual exercise was planned to take place in a single room

0:30:15 > 0:30:20"in central London with six people sitting around a table.

0:30:20 > 0:30:23"Everything was simulated in that room.

0:30:23 > 0:30:27"Although I have been happy in the past to clarify with anyone,

0:30:27 > 0:30:32"all too often, it has done nothing to assuage the rather weird beliefs

0:30:32 > 0:30:36"of some who, exploiting their views on the internet,

0:30:36 > 0:30:41"seem convinced my company was involved in a conspiracy that day."

0:30:41 > 0:30:43I'm not saying that the people who are running the drills

0:30:43 > 0:30:46are actually involved in the actual terrorist events,

0:30:46 > 0:30:49that is a parallel part of the operation.

0:30:49 > 0:30:54The drill is there to cover the real event.

0:30:54 > 0:30:56What are we saying, Jon?

0:30:56 > 0:31:00We are saying that the same day the Government bombed themselves,

0:31:00 > 0:31:03they were running drills to cover it over at the same time.

0:31:03 > 0:31:06You're accusing your country of killing its own people.

0:31:06 > 0:31:09- A very serious accusation, right? - I'm not saying who did it, I'm not.

0:31:09 > 0:31:12- Tell me who you think did it. - I don't know who did it.

0:31:12 > 0:31:13If I knew who did it, you know,

0:31:13 > 0:31:16maybe I'd be in court trying to prosecute them, as opposed

0:31:16 > 0:31:20to on a programme with you trying to disprove what I'm trying to say.

0:31:24 > 0:31:28Jon is struggling to prove his point.

0:31:28 > 0:31:32To support his case, he wants me to meet somebody on his side.

0:31:33 > 0:31:37He takes us 200 miles north to his home town.

0:31:40 > 0:31:42We're on our way to meet Dr Naseem.

0:31:42 > 0:31:48He thinks that one in four Muslims doubt the official story,

0:31:48 > 0:31:51the official government narrative, Home Office narrative to 7/7

0:31:51 > 0:31:54and that there is some type of conspiracy behind that.

0:31:56 > 0:32:00After the 7/7 bombs, the Imam of this mosque, Dr Naseem,

0:32:00 > 0:32:04has distributed thousands of copies of a conspiracy film.

0:32:04 > 0:32:07It argued that the British government planned

0:32:07 > 0:32:10the suicide bombings to incite hatred against Muslim.

0:32:10 > 0:32:13- This is Andrew.- Hello, Andrew.

0:32:13 > 0:32:16This is Layla, Tony and Davina.

0:32:16 > 0:32:19I had massive questions a few years ago.

0:32:19 > 0:32:22I came to see you and spoke to you about those doubts,

0:32:22 > 0:32:27and these guys share partly some of my beliefs.

0:32:27 > 0:32:29There's a lot of mistrust about the Government.

0:32:29 > 0:32:33The political leadership is considered to be a bunch of liars.

0:32:33 > 0:32:34Oh, yeah, absolutely.

0:32:34 > 0:32:39If you agree with that, then anything they say is a lie as well, isn't it?

0:32:39 > 0:32:42People can be liars, but they would not be necessarily murderers.

0:32:42 > 0:32:45- Is that not true, Doctor? - Oh, they can lie about murder.

0:32:45 > 0:32:49What role do you believe these four men played in it?

0:32:49 > 0:32:52I don't know. I don't have the evidence.

0:32:52 > 0:32:55I mean, because obviously their bodies were found there.

0:32:55 > 0:33:01Yes. 56 people died, it was a horrific action that was taken.

0:33:01 > 0:33:05But who did it? That is the question that is not being answered.

0:33:05 > 0:33:07We had a meeting with the MI5 here in the mosque.

0:33:07 > 0:33:09OK.

0:33:09 > 0:33:10And I put it to them,

0:33:10 > 0:33:15surely when you have reasonable evidence that this man is

0:33:15 > 0:33:20going off the rail, we will go and collect the whole family.

0:33:20 > 0:33:23We can stop it before anything happens. OK, God bless.

0:33:23 > 0:33:27All that he would accept was that amongst the dead on the day

0:33:27 > 0:33:30were four British Muslim men.

0:33:30 > 0:33:32That was it.

0:33:33 > 0:33:36None of the other evidence to suggest otherwise,

0:33:36 > 0:33:40he either didn't know about or he completely dismissed.

0:33:42 > 0:33:44Now Andrew's questions were probing

0:33:44 > 0:33:50but Dr Naseem's answers were minimal but was giving good retorts.

0:33:50 > 0:33:53Erm, he was able to sort of answer the question with another question,

0:33:53 > 0:33:55"Well, you show me the proof."

0:33:55 > 0:33:58The saddest of all was the bit where he said that his,

0:33:58 > 0:34:03that his mosque could have spiritually steered

0:34:03 > 0:34:06those four men away from what they were doing.

0:34:06 > 0:34:08No, you've not done, you've obviously, it's not logic.

0:34:08 > 0:34:10Tony seems to be tying himself in knots.

0:34:10 > 0:34:13How can the man in the mosque have prevented the men from doing

0:34:13 > 0:34:16the bombings if they were meant to be patsies?

0:34:16 > 0:34:17I'll explain again.

0:34:17 > 0:34:23A group of four Muslim men, they have outside influences.

0:34:23 > 0:34:26We're going to approach them to commit an act of violence.

0:34:26 > 0:34:27Mm-hm, right.

0:34:27 > 0:34:31There is a spiritual ministry within the mosque

0:34:31 > 0:34:34that would have steered them away from committing that act of violence

0:34:34 > 0:34:35had they told somebody.

0:34:35 > 0:34:39I'll stop you there because that makes perfect sense and that's right.

0:34:39 > 0:34:41- Yeah.- But your theory all the way along has been

0:34:41 > 0:34:43they were patsies, they didn't do it,

0:34:43 > 0:34:45they didn't know what they were doing, all that kind of stuff.

0:34:45 > 0:34:48- No, no, that's not what, no. - You're just exploring avenues.

0:34:48 > 0:34:51I'm exploring avenues. Let's do some research and come back to it.

0:34:51 > 0:34:53No, I'm just asking you what your theories are,

0:34:53 > 0:34:55you've got all defensive and weird about it.

0:34:55 > 0:34:58I'm not defensive and I'm not weird, I'm trying to explain to you.

0:34:58 > 0:35:00Perhaps I shouldn't get so angry.

0:35:00 > 0:35:03I get very worked up and then I lose my focus and get angry

0:35:03 > 0:35:05and people think I'm directing my anger at them,

0:35:05 > 0:35:08when really I get upset about what I've seen.

0:35:08 > 0:35:10I don't quite understand why he was so upset,

0:35:10 > 0:35:13but you know, all I said was that sounds contradictory

0:35:13 > 0:35:16can you explain it to me so it isn't contradictory any more.

0:35:16 > 0:35:18Tony is obviously the die-hard conspiracist.

0:35:18 > 0:35:21And you know, he's a self-described die-hard conspiracist.

0:35:21 > 0:35:23He's somebody that, you know,

0:35:23 > 0:35:27I've started just for my own amusement making up bull crap stories

0:35:27 > 0:35:29and saying, "Hey, Tony, how's this for a scenario?"

0:35:29 > 0:35:31Can I put a scenario to you and see what you think?

0:35:31 > 0:35:34I mean, if somebody was warned about this, you know,

0:35:34 > 0:35:36this is going to happen in the next few days,

0:35:36 > 0:35:40maybe the training exercise was to not make people panic.

0:35:40 > 0:35:43I've just got some completely unconnected dots,

0:35:43 > 0:35:45connected them together and gone, "How about this, Tony?"

0:35:45 > 0:35:47He's like, "Yes, very astute."

0:35:47 > 0:35:48That's a very...

0:35:48 > 0:35:51To me that's more likely than the Government orchestrating everything.

0:35:51 > 0:35:53That's very astute is that.

0:35:53 > 0:35:54He's not interested in the truth,

0:35:54 > 0:35:56he's interested in his version of events.

0:36:01 > 0:36:06Now it's time for Layla herself to have her claim examined

0:36:06 > 0:36:08as we head back down south.

0:36:17 > 0:36:2032-year-old Layla is from Staffordshire

0:36:20 > 0:36:24and her journalistic background forces her to question everything.

0:36:24 > 0:36:26I proof read articles for magazines,

0:36:26 > 0:36:30and I did this for a magazine that was about alternative subjects.

0:36:30 > 0:36:34And I had to proof read a load of conspiracy theories.

0:36:34 > 0:36:37I started to think, "Oh, my God, that's weird, that doesn't add up.

0:36:37 > 0:36:40"Very strange that there's lots of different versions of events here,

0:36:40 > 0:36:43"it's very strange that things are so secretive."

0:36:44 > 0:36:48Her big question surrounds who actually detonated the bombs.

0:36:50 > 0:36:55What I heard was that the bombs were already in the train,

0:36:55 > 0:36:57that the bombs were set off remotely

0:36:57 > 0:37:00and they were underneath at the bottom of the train,

0:37:00 > 0:37:03as opposed to, you know, the official version of events

0:37:03 > 0:37:06which was that they were carried in a backpack.

0:37:06 > 0:37:10I want them to meet Chris Hunter, a former Army bomb disposal expert

0:37:10 > 0:37:14and intelligence officer who is now a counter-terrorism consultant.

0:37:14 > 0:37:17Basically, the first thing you look at is

0:37:17 > 0:37:20where the majority of the damage is inside the structure.

0:37:20 > 0:37:24So obviously, when you look at, for example, the Aldgate device,

0:37:24 > 0:37:26you can see there's very clearly a hole in the bottom of

0:37:26 > 0:37:30the carriage floor and significant damage directly above that too.

0:37:30 > 0:37:33I heard that everybody that was sat down on the Tube

0:37:33 > 0:37:36was more badly injured than everybody that was standing up

0:37:36 > 0:37:39because the bombs were underneath the carriages.

0:37:39 > 0:37:41Could that happen? Is that the way these things...?

0:37:41 > 0:37:44Erm... It wouldn't really be consistent with it.

0:37:44 > 0:37:46If you had a bomb underneath a train,

0:37:46 > 0:37:49the chances are it would actually cause it to derail.

0:37:49 > 0:37:51And you didn't see anything like that at all.

0:37:51 > 0:37:55What you saw was, you know, very, very typical of a blast going down,

0:37:55 > 0:37:58going up and then travelling through a carriage that was full of people.

0:37:58 > 0:38:00It's just like when you've got a small pond,

0:38:00 > 0:38:02you drop a stone in there and see the waves going outwards,

0:38:02 > 0:38:04and then as they hit the edge of the pond

0:38:04 > 0:38:07they start to come back inwards again as well.

0:38:07 > 0:38:09So you could suck some floor back up?

0:38:09 > 0:38:12- Basically, blow it down... - Is it that powerful?

0:38:12 > 0:38:14Yeah, we knew that from also the fact that

0:38:14 > 0:38:17there was fragmentation in these devices as well.

0:38:17 > 0:38:21Basically, you know, bits of metal sellotaped to the,

0:38:21 > 0:38:23or taped to the actual bombs themselves.

0:38:23 > 0:38:27And those were used to effectively enhance the damage

0:38:27 > 0:38:29to the individuals on the carriage itself.

0:38:29 > 0:38:32That is absolutely shocking and I'm shocked. I'm shocked to hear that.

0:38:32 > 0:38:35I... I didn't know that,

0:38:35 > 0:38:38and this is nowhere on any of the conspiracy theories that I've read.

0:38:38 > 0:38:41What they do is effectively if you've just got explosive

0:38:41 > 0:38:44you get blast damage where, as if the blast isn't damaging enough

0:38:44 > 0:38:47as it is, they actually add nuts and bolts and things.

0:38:47 > 0:38:49So you get these sort of, you know,

0:38:49 > 0:38:52critical puncture wounds, effectively.

0:38:52 > 0:38:55I've never met anybody who's in the, has any connection to

0:38:55 > 0:38:57the intelligence service, you're the first person.

0:38:57 > 0:39:02So it's just, from your own personal experience of working in that field,

0:39:02 > 0:39:05what is the feasibility of even an element

0:39:05 > 0:39:08of the British security services doing this?

0:39:08 > 0:39:11To suggest that the Government would carry out an attack

0:39:11 > 0:39:16against its own people, I just think is quite frankly ridiculous.

0:39:18 > 0:39:22It was a very clear explanation of how a blast affects people.

0:39:22 > 0:39:26Seeing and speaking to a proper qualified expert or somebody

0:39:26 > 0:39:28that's, you know, actually been through the experience

0:39:28 > 0:39:31is completely different to sitting there on the internet

0:39:31 > 0:39:35reading some self-proclaimed expert who could be absolutely anybody.

0:39:37 > 0:39:41Layla is finally turned away from the conspiracies,

0:39:41 > 0:39:44but what about the rest of them?

0:39:44 > 0:39:46I'm quite frank, I don't know what's going on now,

0:39:46 > 0:39:48I don't know what side of the fence I'm on.

0:39:48 > 0:39:50I see this, that and the other on the internet.

0:39:50 > 0:39:52To be frank, at this moment in time

0:39:52 > 0:39:54I don't know what side I'm on with everything at the moment.

0:39:54 > 0:39:56I don't know whether I'm coming or going.

0:39:56 > 0:39:59But what's happening, Layla, is we're being challenged

0:39:59 > 0:40:00from another dimension.

0:40:00 > 0:40:04We're being challenged by, by a public narrative, a proper narrative

0:40:04 > 0:40:07that everybody considers to be the logical explanation.

0:40:07 > 0:40:09That's the thing, it's the logical explanation.

0:40:09 > 0:40:12- No, it's not logical.- Why is it not the logical explanation?

0:40:12 > 0:40:15- Because it could be a possible lie. - Because it could be a possible lie?

0:40:15 > 0:40:16Yes, it could be a possible lie.

0:40:16 > 0:40:18Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

0:40:18 > 0:40:19No, I don't realise that at all.

0:40:19 > 0:40:25The thing that pisses me off is neither of you understand logic.

0:40:25 > 0:40:27Oh, give over. No, no, no, no, no.

0:40:27 > 0:40:29You have a problem with logical thinking.

0:40:29 > 0:40:31No, no, not at all. I don't agree with you, I'm sorry.

0:40:31 > 0:40:32Yeah, well you do.

0:40:32 > 0:40:35I don't agree with you, I'm sorry. I don't agree with that at all.

0:40:35 > 0:40:38Do you know what, I've got a confession to make, right?

0:40:38 > 0:40:40I've been, just to see what you would say, coming up with

0:40:40 > 0:40:43wild speculations and theories and throwing them at you just for fun.

0:40:43 > 0:40:46- Wild speculations, no it's not. - And you've said, "Hmm, very astute."

0:40:46 > 0:40:49And I've been doing that on purpose and making up some bollocks.

0:40:49 > 0:40:51- No, you haven't.- Yes, I have, I've got it on camera.

0:40:51 > 0:40:53No you haven't, no you haven't.

0:40:53 > 0:40:55I fed you some bollocks as a possible scenario

0:40:55 > 0:40:56and you've gone, "Hmm."

0:40:56 > 0:40:59- No, because it's a valid scenario. - No, no, it's not. I made it up.

0:40:59 > 0:41:02- Don't personally attack me. - It's bollocks.

0:41:02 > 0:41:04Right, off camera, no more of it, no more of it from you now

0:41:04 > 0:41:07because you're personally attacking me and I'm not having it.

0:41:07 > 0:41:09I don't want to comment any more on it.

0:41:09 > 0:41:11- I'm not personally attacking you. - Yes, you are.

0:41:11 > 0:41:13- Well done, you. - Well, done you, Layla.

0:41:13 > 0:41:16I'm kind of pissed off with the whole thing to be honest.

0:41:16 > 0:41:18Of course you will be, OK. That's fine then.

0:41:18 > 0:41:20I tell you what, for the rest of the three days don't bother.

0:41:20 > 0:41:23Don't come anywhere near me. If it's that bad for you.

0:41:23 > 0:41:24I think that's enough.

0:41:24 > 0:41:29That is enough, it certainly is. Shocking, absolutely shocking.

0:41:32 > 0:41:35He was just getting on my tit end basically,

0:41:35 > 0:41:38he was just getting on my nerves because he would just not be logical.

0:41:38 > 0:41:41And he expected me to believe everything he said

0:41:41 > 0:41:43just because he said it, and that's irritating.

0:41:43 > 0:41:46I'm very upset about what has happened today.

0:41:46 > 0:41:48There is no other way to describe it.

0:41:48 > 0:41:49I'm keeping my emotions in check,

0:41:49 > 0:41:52but frankly I could just burst into tears with it all.

0:41:52 > 0:41:54It's upset me greatly.

0:41:54 > 0:41:58I sense that he feels shaken by how horrible the world is sometimes,

0:41:58 > 0:42:00that's my sense, and it upsets him.

0:42:00 > 0:42:02And I think he feels better having somebody to blame

0:42:02 > 0:42:05and having a mission and feeling like he's doing something about it.

0:42:11 > 0:42:15It's the last day and there's one more conspiracy claim left,

0:42:15 > 0:42:16and it's another of Tony's.

0:42:19 > 0:42:21You've been led to believe that it was home made bombs

0:42:21 > 0:42:23that blew up the number 30 bus.

0:42:25 > 0:42:27But there is reports in the press

0:42:27 > 0:42:30that military-grade explosive material was found at the scene.

0:42:30 > 0:42:33I don't think that homemade bombs would be able to

0:42:33 > 0:42:37cause the damage at the level and weight that were in the rucksacks.

0:42:37 > 0:42:40Take a look.

0:42:40 > 0:42:4318 Alexandra Grove.

0:42:43 > 0:42:47This is the Leeds ex-council flat turned bomb factory

0:42:47 > 0:42:49that the bombers used as their base.

0:42:49 > 0:42:53The police found buckets of sand-coloured sludge,

0:42:53 > 0:42:58boxes of hair dye and pans full of hydrogen peroxide.

0:42:58 > 0:43:02But could it have really caused this?

0:43:02 > 0:43:04We're going to find out.

0:43:08 > 0:43:11We're at a quarry in Wiltshire

0:43:11 > 0:43:14to carry out our own controlled explosion using homemade bombs.

0:43:16 > 0:43:18Sidney.

0:43:18 > 0:43:20Sidney Alford is an explosives expert

0:43:20 > 0:43:23and has been tinkering with bombs since he was 11.

0:43:23 > 0:43:28He specialises in IEDs and has helped the Army in Afghanistan.

0:43:28 > 0:43:32Right, well, Sidney, my friend here Tony

0:43:32 > 0:43:35believes part of the conspiracy theory is that

0:43:35 > 0:43:37a homemade explosive of that size

0:43:37 > 0:43:40wouldn't have the capacity to cause that damage.

0:43:40 > 0:43:43I see. So you'd like me to settle that simple question?

0:43:43 > 0:43:47- Yes, absolutely.- Just don't fiddle with anything, all right?

0:43:47 > 0:43:50Because if something... There's not much nasty stuff there,

0:43:50 > 0:43:53but if there is something which is labelled something naughty,

0:43:53 > 0:43:55it probably is something naughty.

0:43:55 > 0:43:57So no fiddling please.

0:43:57 > 0:44:00So let's go and have a look at the thingamabob.

0:44:00 > 0:44:02- Are we OK to...?- Yes, yes, Sidney.

0:44:10 > 0:44:12Using all of the available information from the inquest,

0:44:12 > 0:44:15Sidney is going to replicate the terrible events

0:44:15 > 0:44:18of the bus bombing in Tavistock Square.

0:44:21 > 0:44:24This is my last chance to convince Jon or Tony they're wrong

0:44:24 > 0:44:28so I'm hoping this experiment goes my way.

0:44:41 > 0:44:46The bomber or the bomb was either on this seat or this seat.

0:44:46 > 0:44:50- M-hm.- Would you think it's likely that we're going to see

0:44:50 > 0:44:53the roof sort of being ripped off halfway

0:44:53 > 0:44:55and the back end being blown away?

0:44:55 > 0:44:58I'll show you, we'll break the windows.

0:44:58 > 0:45:01I expect this will have to give.

0:45:01 > 0:45:03I expect that seat will be pushed down.

0:45:03 > 0:45:06Er I would expect the bus to be a write off.

0:45:06 > 0:45:08I'll commit myself no further at this stage.

0:45:14 > 0:45:17In this container I have black pepper,

0:45:17 > 0:45:21and in these two containers I have a hydrogen peroxide solution.

0:45:21 > 0:45:24I'm not telling you what concentration the peroxide is.

0:45:27 > 0:45:33I have to depend upon what is reported in various sources and

0:45:33 > 0:45:36such things as the policeman reporting

0:45:36 > 0:45:40that he smelt pepper after the bang.

0:45:40 > 0:45:44That is a very strong clue, because if something smells like pepper,

0:45:44 > 0:45:46guess what it's likely to be?

0:45:49 > 0:45:54I'm just cutting a cross in the plastic

0:45:54 > 0:45:57to facilitate pushing a detonator in.

0:46:08 > 0:46:10It looks so tiny down there.

0:46:10 > 0:46:12It is really small.

0:46:12 > 0:46:15On the other end of this is our bomb.

0:46:19 > 0:46:22BOMB SIREN

0:46:23 > 0:46:25Here we go, people.

0:46:25 > 0:46:28Could a homemade explosive blow up a bus?

0:46:31 > 0:46:33BOMB EXPLODES

0:46:45 > 0:46:47Does everybody now believe that homemade bombs can blow up a bus?

0:46:47 > 0:46:49- Yeah.- Everybody convinced? - Yeah.- Yeah?

0:46:49 > 0:46:52- Wow, look at it, look.- Look. Can it blow the roof off a bus?

0:46:52 > 0:46:55- Looks like it.- Homemade explosive? Everybody convinced? Tony?

0:46:55 > 0:46:57Yeah, absolutely convinced, totally.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02Stuff that anybody can get their hands on.

0:47:02 > 0:47:06And we got it on camera and the other camera down there.

0:47:06 > 0:47:08BOMB EXPLODES

0:47:17 > 0:47:20I want to whisper, you know?

0:47:20 > 0:47:21You want to whisper.

0:47:21 > 0:47:24You want to whisper, yeah.

0:47:24 > 0:47:26- Part of the bus. - It's a bit of the bus.

0:47:36 > 0:47:38Watch that wire there.

0:47:38 > 0:47:44Mums, babies, commuters, tourists, everybody gets on a London bus.

0:47:44 > 0:47:47Surely they'll now accept the facts of what happened

0:47:47 > 0:47:49on that terrible day.

0:47:49 > 0:47:52The next time you're speaking to anybody on the internet who says

0:47:52 > 0:47:57that a homemade explosive can't do this, right?

0:47:57 > 0:48:01I can't disprove everything to you, OK?

0:48:01 > 0:48:04Jon, does this make any difference to you?

0:48:04 > 0:48:07Well, I mean, it certainly makes a difference.

0:48:07 > 0:48:09I had heard those things, I don't subscribe to them.

0:48:09 > 0:48:12I'm not a chemist, I'm not a bomb expert, erm you know,

0:48:12 > 0:48:16I'm just a bloke, and, yes, you have proven to me

0:48:16 > 0:48:20that a professional can make a hydrogen peroxide bomb

0:48:20 > 0:48:25with black pepper and rip the roof off a, off a London bus.

0:48:25 > 0:48:27Proved it to me, mate, proved it to me.

0:48:27 > 0:48:28You've proved it, that's it, end of.

0:48:48 > 0:48:50I think you've got to be sensible with it, Andrew.

0:48:50 > 0:48:54You've certainly made me wake up and smell the coffee on the issue,

0:48:54 > 0:48:55definitely so.

0:48:55 > 0:48:58I just, it does my head in, I don't need it any more.

0:48:58 > 0:49:00It does my head in.

0:49:00 > 0:49:05I'm certainly going to put to bed, I think, the CCTV one

0:49:05 > 0:49:07and the bus one.

0:49:07 > 0:49:10So I think we can, we're heading down the road now of it being

0:49:10 > 0:49:14a complete and almighty cock up rather than a conspiracy,

0:49:14 > 0:49:15failings in security, failings in surveillance.

0:49:15 > 0:49:19I have to say, I didn't see you taking this route at all with it.

0:49:19 > 0:49:22- No.- At the start, because I mean there's,

0:49:22 > 0:49:24there's all sorts of carry on.

0:49:24 > 0:49:28There is a portion of my mind, there are some unanswered questions,

0:49:28 > 0:49:32but I've certainly woken up to be more sensible

0:49:32 > 0:49:35about the information that I'm looking at. I certainly have.

0:49:52 > 0:49:54It's almost the end of our journey

0:49:54 > 0:49:57and we're visiting the 7/7 memorial in Hyde Park.

0:49:58 > 0:50:02I want the group to meet Graham Foulkes who lost his son David

0:50:02 > 0:50:04in the bombing.

0:50:10 > 0:50:13Graham, thank you for coming. Andrew.

0:50:13 > 0:50:15- Hi.- We got here a couple of minutes before you

0:50:15 > 0:50:19and we saw your son's name on the memorial.

0:50:19 > 0:50:24David was 22 and this was his first trip to London

0:50:24 > 0:50:28on the Underground on his own, and he stood next to Siddique Khan.

0:50:28 > 0:50:31Somebody said to me that the first Christmas,

0:50:31 > 0:50:33the first birthday, the first anniversary are difficult,

0:50:33 > 0:50:37and you get through those and after that everything gets easier.

0:50:37 > 0:50:38It's simply not true.

0:50:38 > 0:50:40I mean, standing here now by the memorial

0:50:40 > 0:50:44and these columns here are for the Edgware Road people,

0:50:44 > 0:50:47the six people that were killed in Edgware Road,

0:50:47 > 0:50:50and I feel uncomfortable.

0:50:51 > 0:50:57There's a visceral feeling that overwhelms you.

0:50:59 > 0:51:03There's a huge space here where David should be.

0:51:04 > 0:51:07And I don't know, people talk about black holes in space,

0:51:07 > 0:51:11and I've got my own black hole and it comes with me everywhere.

0:51:11 > 0:51:13Do you still feel angry about this

0:51:13 > 0:51:18or do you feel less angry or more angry as time has gone on?

0:51:18 > 0:51:22I'll never ever stop feeling angry about the death of my son.

0:51:22 > 0:51:23Mm-hm

0:51:23 > 0:51:26And when you know, when you read into it

0:51:26 > 0:51:29and you get to see as much as I and many others have,

0:51:29 > 0:51:32- there is an anger at being let down. - Yeah.

0:51:32 > 0:51:39In the build up to the attacks, we'd heard that the security services

0:51:39 > 0:51:43had been noting Siddique Khan for a number of years.

0:51:43 > 0:51:46But at the inquest we found out they'd actually been trailing him

0:51:46 > 0:51:48since the year 2000.

0:51:48 > 0:51:49OK.

0:51:49 > 0:51:53They knew he'd been to Pakistan to terrorist training camps twice,

0:51:53 > 0:51:56so they knew that he was an active bomber, they knew he was actively

0:51:56 > 0:52:00involved in terrorism and yet they still allowed him to get through.

0:52:00 > 0:52:01By letting him get through,

0:52:01 > 0:52:04you're not saying they deliberately let him get through?

0:52:04 > 0:52:08I'm saying that their systems that they had in place were inadequate

0:52:08 > 0:52:10and they allowed him to get through.

0:52:10 > 0:52:12There's nothing in the conspiracy theories,

0:52:12 > 0:52:15there's nothing of substance, absolutely nothing.

0:52:15 > 0:52:17The main areas that concerned me

0:52:17 > 0:52:22are how could MI5 follow Siddique Khan for ten years?

0:52:22 > 0:52:24That is an area for concern.

0:52:24 > 0:52:27Because obviously I think, well, if they'd done their job properly

0:52:27 > 0:52:30my son would still be alive and so would 51 other people.

0:52:51 > 0:52:53We're at the end of our trip and I want to know

0:52:53 > 0:52:56whether I've succeeded in changing any of their minds.

0:52:59 > 0:53:03I don't think there's a conspiracy, I just don't.

0:53:03 > 0:53:06Some of the coincidences are so startling that you can't help

0:53:06 > 0:53:10but think, "Oh, my God, that must, you know, it must mean something."

0:53:10 > 0:53:13But then again, some of the coincidences are equally amazing,

0:53:13 > 0:53:14but meaningless.

0:53:14 > 0:53:16Davina, you know,

0:53:16 > 0:53:20this whole thing could have been extremely awkward for her.

0:53:20 > 0:53:24Her key thing was a good point, you know, this seems so out of place.

0:53:24 > 0:53:27I think that definitely they were there and, you know,

0:53:27 > 0:53:29they do have the capacity to commit these atrocities.

0:53:29 > 0:53:32At the end of the day for me, like there is still

0:53:32 > 0:53:35a lack of information in terms of what happened after the incident

0:53:35 > 0:53:38and reasons behind why these men did what they did.

0:53:38 > 0:53:41But I do believe that what happened and what was done,

0:53:41 > 0:53:42was done by these men.

0:53:42 > 0:53:44At the start of this trip I was like,

0:53:44 > 0:53:47"There's no moving on this guy at all."

0:53:47 > 0:53:50I'll be honest with you, I'd almost written Tony off.

0:53:50 > 0:53:52Mr Topping.

0:53:52 > 0:53:54Mr Maxwell, sir.

0:53:54 > 0:53:57Oh, what have you started here with me, matey? Goodness gracious me.

0:53:57 > 0:53:58- Really?- Yeah.

0:53:58 > 0:54:01It's been quite an experience, I'd like to thank you for it.

0:54:01 > 0:54:04Erm, it's been amazing. It's certainly matured me.

0:54:04 > 0:54:07I couldn't explain what that maybe meant to you, but it's

0:54:07 > 0:54:10just the research I've been looking at and all that kind of thing.

0:54:10 > 0:54:12You have to be very careful what you look at,

0:54:12 > 0:54:14you have to be very sensible with it.

0:54:14 > 0:54:18And I've clearly seen now that a conspiracy can be blown out

0:54:18 > 0:54:22of all proportion and it just grows like a virus, erm,

0:54:22 > 0:54:27and it can affect incidents, it can affect lives, it can affect people.

0:54:27 > 0:54:31That's probably an equation that is missing from the conspiracy theory.

0:54:31 > 0:54:33The victims with conspiracy theorists have no say.

0:54:33 > 0:54:37So a surprising turnaround for those three.

0:54:38 > 0:54:41But there remains one more coach tripper.

0:54:41 > 0:54:43You know, Jon took bits and pieces on board.

0:54:43 > 0:54:47He accepted when something we could kind of irrefutably prove,

0:54:47 > 0:54:53AKA yes, homemade explosive can do extraordinary damage to a bus.

0:54:53 > 0:54:57But ultimately he's coming from a different world view to me.

0:54:57 > 0:55:00Mr Jon, Mr Scobie.

0:55:00 > 0:55:05Of course it does not mean, Andrew, that those guys did do it,

0:55:05 > 0:55:08that does not prosecute those four men.

0:55:08 > 0:55:13So I do maintain that 7/7 is a justification to continue

0:55:13 > 0:55:18these wars in the Middle East and, erm, continue empire building

0:55:18 > 0:55:23and to continue British Imperialism spreading across the world.

0:55:26 > 0:55:30For me, this film is a love letter to the city I love.

0:55:30 > 0:55:32I love London.

0:55:32 > 0:55:35The idea of somebody attacking it like they did,

0:55:35 > 0:55:38it's like killing a loved one.

0:55:38 > 0:55:43But these conspiracy theories, you know, they feed off suspicion.

0:55:43 > 0:55:46Who am I to tell you not to be suspicious of the media,

0:55:46 > 0:55:48the political class or the cops?

0:55:48 > 0:55:50I don't blame you, I am too.

0:55:50 > 0:55:54But does that add up to a giant murderous conspiracy?

0:55:54 > 0:55:56I don't see that.

0:56:23 > 0:56:26Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd