0:00:03 > 0:00:06I'm Andrew Maxwell, a comedian,
0:00:06 > 0:00:08but in this series, I'm on a serious mission -
0:00:08 > 0:00:11to explore the world of the conspiracy theorist.
0:00:14 > 0:00:18Tonight, it's religious fundamentalists,
0:00:18 > 0:00:22people who believe every detail of their holy books is fact,
0:00:22 > 0:00:25and science is out to destroy God.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35I'm going to travel with these diehard creationists to the West Coast of America...
0:00:35 > 0:00:37- Andrew.- I'm Phil.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39..where nearly 50% of people are on their side...
0:00:39 > 0:00:41- Hi!- Good morning.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Hi, I'm Sam. Nice to meet you.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47..to try and understand where they're coming from.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50For them, humans and dinosaurs lived happily, side by side.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Noah squeezed every living creature onto his Ark...
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Noah's Ark was specifically designed by God.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59..and evolution is a pack of lies told to rid the world of God.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09They'll be challenged by experts who think that's all nonsense.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11That's not conjecture, it's evidence.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13But the coach trippers won't take it lying down.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15Literally, I don't want it.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18There's going to be tears...
0:01:18 > 0:01:20None of that up there is what Jesus is about.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22..fall-outs...
0:01:22 > 0:01:26- That's not why we're here.- When you have nothing to say, put your hand up when you're out of ideas.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29..and downright rebellion.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31You're a bully and a pathetic director,
0:01:31 > 0:01:33a complete and utter bully.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37Fasten your seatbelts and welcome to Conspiracy Road Trip.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the road trip!
0:01:49 > 0:01:51CHEERING
0:01:51 > 0:01:53So here it is, over the space of 150 years,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56evolution has become to be known as,
0:01:56 > 0:01:58in the scientific community, certainly,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01a certainty, an absolute fact.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Boo to you, sir, boo to you.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Now, I know somewhere along the way, you all believe that is nonsense, right?
0:02:07 > 0:02:10I'm going to introduce you to the scientists,
0:02:10 > 0:02:14you can meet them first-hand, and you can have it back and forward with them.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16I'm not here to rattle your faith.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18I doubt very much if I could, right, Phil?
0:02:18 > 0:02:22This Dublin midget is not going to convince you that there isn't a God,
0:02:22 > 0:02:26nor do I intend to, brother, all right?
0:02:27 > 0:02:32My fellow trippers are Phil, a fire and brimstone Christian.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35He can't wait for atheists to meet their maker...
0:02:35 > 0:02:39I think evolutionists will feel the full weight of their choice
0:02:39 > 0:02:41whenever they get to Judgment Day.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44..south London Muslim Abdul,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47who's up for a fight with evolutionary scientists...
0:02:47 > 0:02:51There's no empirical proof for evolution.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54They lie. Scientists are liars.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56There's Paris, France, everyone!
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Yay, Eiffel Tower!
0:02:59 > 0:03:02..19-year-old call centre worker Bronwyn -
0:03:02 > 0:03:05she believes humans used to have to run away from T-rex.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08No doubt, there were probably some fatalities
0:03:08 > 0:03:11with humans and dinosaurs co-existing,
0:03:11 > 0:03:17but, you know, hasn't there been some fatalities with lions and humans co-existing as well?
0:03:17 > 0:03:22There's single mum JoJo who sees God's beauty in love and everything...
0:03:22 > 0:03:25We're intricately designed, you know.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27There is so much to us, that there had to be a creator,
0:03:27 > 0:03:29to create what is just so perfect.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32..and, finally, design student Sam,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36who's here to stand up for his faith.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38There's this view put out that the church is dead,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Christianity means nothing and it has no cultural relevance.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43And, actually, that's just not the case.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Over the next week, we're going to travel 2,000 miles
0:03:55 > 0:03:58from Las Vegas, through California, to San Francisco.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04Each of my five fundamentalists is going to put forward something
0:04:04 > 0:04:08they believe in, and I'm going to try and meet them head on.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10I do not want to be offending to
0:04:10 > 0:04:14the core people who are hard-core Christians or hard-core Muslims...
0:04:14 > 0:04:17You know what I mean? ..because I've got a life to lead.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21'This will be quite the challenge.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25'If these people believe they only answer to an all-powerful being,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28'then God only knows where we'll all end up.'
0:04:40 > 0:04:43We've hit the road.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45One of my fellow travellers is Phil.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48He's first to be put to the test.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54The Bible teaches that there will be a judgment at the end of this world.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59People don't want that. They don't want the baggage.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03They don't want God because God comes with consequences.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Phil is going to be the toughest nut to crack.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11It's his personal crusade to convince people that the events in the Bible are literally true.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14I am a Christian and I firmly believe that the Bible
0:05:14 > 0:05:17is the authority that everyone should stand on.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21It is the word of God and I believe that it's true from start to finish.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26Phil believes the world is only 6,000 years old,
0:05:26 > 0:05:32and that the Grand Canyon was formed by a giant biblical flood just 4,000 years ago.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38In a biblical creationist's point of view, the Grand Canyon was formed as part of a post-flood event,
0:05:38 > 0:05:42at the time of Noah, and it carved the Canyon out very rapidly.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46Sounds like a nice story, but how could you believe it's fact?
0:05:46 > 0:05:50I want everyone to take a closer look at this natural wonder of the world,
0:05:51 > 0:05:53from 10,000 feet.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55- There you go.- Thank you.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57You're welcome, you'll need those.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02This is an air travel crucifix.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06The pilot's got his own supply of crucifixes,
0:06:06 > 0:06:09so it's up, up and away on a wing and a prayer.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22Phil is convinced each of these giant cliffs and valleys
0:06:22 > 0:06:25was carved out by a single flood just 4,000 years ago,
0:06:25 > 0:06:29and the others think the evidence really adds up.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31- SAM:- Incredible, isn't it?
0:06:31 > 0:06:34ABDUL: They make you just in awe of God.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Even the pilot's on their side.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42For me, flying out here really is just a great spiritual thing.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46I really get an increase into my faith when I fly out here.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48Another one of us!
0:06:48 > 0:06:50# La-la la, la-la, la
0:06:50 > 0:06:53# La-la la, la-la, la
0:06:53 > 0:06:56# La-la la, la-la, lay. #
0:06:56 > 0:07:02# I'm on the top of the world lookin' down on creation
0:07:02 > 0:07:05# And the only explanation I can find... #
0:07:05 > 0:07:09I'm looking down on God's wonderful creation from our science machine.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12# ..is the love that I've found Ever since you've been around
0:07:12 > 0:07:17# Your love's put me at the top of the world. #
0:07:21 > 0:07:24Wow! This is incredible.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28- SAM:- It's almost like a painting.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31Andrew, here's how we're going to test the theory of evolution -
0:07:31 > 0:07:32we're going to push you over,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35and we'll see if you can evolve into a bird by the time you fall down.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38- Is that OK?- Evolve quicker!
0:07:38 > 0:07:42Evolve quicker? That's quite a nice heckle put-down.
0:07:42 > 0:07:47- I have to say, Phil, it does put my mind to great periods of time.- OK.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50I see millions of years.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57But what do I know? So we're meeting an expert, Professor Don Prothero,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01a geologist who's been working at the Canyon for 35 years.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05One of the first things I want to make clear is that I am a scientist.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07We deal only with natural forces
0:08:07 > 0:08:10and things that we can observe and test in nature.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12You can see the layers of the earth pile up,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16one on top of another, in a place like this better than just about anywhere else.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Immense amounts of times are required to deposit that,
0:08:19 > 0:08:23cement it into hard sandstone and shale, tilt it, erode it.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Your minimum estimate is hundreds of millions of years.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27Don, thank you for your talk so far.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31Your first assumption was naturalism and your second, uniformitarianism.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33As all scientists around the world are.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Not all scientists. That would be a false statement.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Well, all scientists I'm aware of.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40Really? So you've never read any creationist literature?
0:08:40 > 0:08:44- Oh, I've read them. I don't count them as scientists.- Ah, right. OK.
0:08:45 > 0:08:50The point is that, as far as I understand creationism,
0:08:50 > 0:08:55is a belief that this is to do with the biblical flood, correct?
0:08:55 > 0:08:56- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Could this be a giant flood?
0:08:59 > 0:09:00Let me address that.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04If the biblical flood really did create the Grand Canyon,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08it would need to have carved out curved valleys,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10like here at Horseshoe Bend.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12Don thinks this is impossible
0:09:12 > 0:09:15because flood water cuts along straight lines.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17My understanding of creationist literature,
0:09:17 > 0:09:20and I don't claim to have read as much of it as you, obviously,
0:09:20 > 0:09:22is that the post-flood waters drained off.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26- Is that your understanding?- Yeah, one of two. The post-flood waters...
0:09:26 > 0:09:28If your post-flood waters drain off,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31they're going to drain off and form a sharp, straight canyon.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33That's simple physics.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Just release the water gently onto the surface and,
0:09:35 > 0:09:37as we let it go, we see what it does.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43There you go. So far, it drains in there pretty fast.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Well, there was hardly enough to even get much.
0:09:48 > 0:09:49ABDUL: Amazing. Gee!
0:09:49 > 0:09:50But it's also very straight.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54That's typical flood situations all around the world.
0:09:54 > 0:09:55This is simple geomorphology.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58This is the way we look at how the land forms the earth
0:09:58 > 0:10:00and watch them evolve in real time.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04- From our perspective, obviously, we see things kind of differently. - Well, obviously.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06As for the Horseshoe Bend and stuff here,
0:10:06 > 0:10:08I'm not a trained geologist,
0:10:08 > 0:10:12- so I think to try and answer a question in regards to that would be very silly.- OK.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15Phil might not have much to say,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18but he's definitely making an impression on Abdul.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22Phil said the Grand Canyon was made by the flood.
0:10:22 > 0:10:23He just dropped that one in.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27I don't know where it says in the Bible the Grand Canyon was made by a flood,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30but he's kind of just adopted it as a cornerstone of his belief.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34Is anybody here in any way less convinced?
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Not really. I'm not... I'm not less convinced,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40just because this is just one thing.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43But it's his water. It's his gravity, right?
0:10:43 > 0:10:45You know, it's his stuff.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48- Yeah, so he can do what he wants with it, right?- Yeah, of course.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51So he doesn't have to abide by any other laws, cos it's his after all?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54- That's right, but as a scientist, I can't do that.- Yeah, that's fine.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58It would seem odd that he would just, once off, do something different with water,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00than what he does everywhere else on his creation.
0:11:00 > 0:11:06'I don't really know where we can take this with people who,'
0:11:06 > 0:11:09when shown the most basic nature of water, go,
0:11:09 > 0:11:12"Well, maybe he changed his mind once.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15"Maybe God decided to do something different with water."
0:11:15 > 0:11:20You know? Under those sort of circumstances, it's hard to know.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33We might disagree about the fundamentals of science,
0:11:33 > 0:11:35but on a 2,000-mile road trip,
0:11:35 > 0:11:39you've got to have fun, country-style!
0:11:39 > 0:11:41COUNTRY MUSIC PLAYS
0:11:43 > 0:11:45Yeah! Woo!
0:11:52 > 0:11:55WOMEN SCREAM
0:11:55 > 0:11:57Go, Sammy! Go, Sammy! Go, Sammy!
0:12:01 > 0:12:04ANDREW DROWNED OUT BY LAUGHTER
0:12:04 > 0:12:06- I don't know, JoJo. - Are we the judges?
0:12:14 > 0:12:18It's day two of the road trip and we're heading to Lake Powell, Utah.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27Creationists are certain that the story of Noah's Ark
0:12:27 > 0:12:31is a matter of historical fact, but the devil's in the detail.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38JoJo fills us in on the blueprints for the biblical boat.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42Apparently, Noah made it roomy enough for both his family
0:12:42 > 0:12:45and 16,000 animals,
0:12:45 > 0:12:47including the dinosaurs.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53Noah's Ark was specifically designed by God. He was the architect.
0:12:53 > 0:12:59The dimensions of the Ark was 140 metres long,
0:12:59 > 0:13:0123 metres wide,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03and 40 metres high.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07So, in layman's terms, that is longer than a football field
0:13:07 > 0:13:09and taller than a four-storey building.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12So, in the space of 4,500 years,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16we've gone from eight people
0:13:16 > 0:13:20and a certain number of animals,
0:13:20 > 0:13:22to all the animals.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25- That is creation theology?- Yeah.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29OK, so the story may sound incredible,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32but it's a mainstay of JoJo's belief.
0:13:33 > 0:13:38Her faith in God was renewed after a successful battle with cancer.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41There was one occasion when, um,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44I was, like, so, so weak,
0:13:44 > 0:13:48I could hardly breathe and I absolutely, categorically,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50heard a voice say, "Not yet, not yet,"
0:13:50 > 0:13:53and I was too weak to even fight it, and I just thought,
0:13:53 > 0:13:54"What do you mean "not yet"?"
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Now, I know that some people will say, you know, if people,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00you know, talk to God, it's called prayer.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02If people hear God, then it's called insanity.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04Well, you know, at the end of the day,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08I heard something, and from that day, I have not looked back.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11I have put weight on, I have become healthier and healthier,
0:14:11 > 0:14:13and things changed,
0:14:13 > 0:14:16and it was just a specific, still, quiet, peaceful voice,
0:14:16 > 0:14:18that just said, "Not yet."
0:14:18 > 0:14:21I can get the spiritual side of JoJo's beliefs,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23but I cannot get my head around the idea
0:14:23 > 0:14:27that all those animals could live in one wooden boat.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31Professor Jerry Coyne has been studying biology for 40 years,
0:14:31 > 0:14:35and he also knows a little thing or two about boats.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39A boat has never been built longer than 300 feet, made entirely out of wood,
0:14:39 > 0:14:43so there's just simply no way that a boat 450-feet long could have survived.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46You hear of turbulent flooding and I'm wondering how...
0:14:46 > 0:14:48I mean, that's a scientific objection.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52But the fact that man has never built a boat longer than a certain distance is no way conclusive.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55- That's based on evidence. - Can I finish, please?
0:14:55 > 0:14:59- It doesn't mean a creator couldn't figure something out.- I'm sorry, but there is evidence for this.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02It's not just something... Let me finish now, OK.
0:15:02 > 0:15:07They tried to build these long boats but they were unstable, as that's what they built in the 19th century.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10PHIL: So your first assumption there is totally incorrect.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12No, it's not. I take issue with you.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15You're saying ship-building has not evolved. That's not true.
0:15:15 > 0:15:20Things are getting heated. The boys won't accept a word Jerry says,
0:15:20 > 0:15:22and they're hijacking JoJo's point.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24Let me go slow, let me go slow.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26A supposition in the dictionary
0:15:26 > 0:15:30is translated as meaning an uncertain belief.
0:15:30 > 0:15:35You said your supposition is that boat-building has evolved.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39- (TEARFULLY)- I just can't stand the arguments. It's just stupid.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41I just find it really rude.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48If somebody is coming with his opinion, fair enough, OK? That's what he believes.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52But then when people are bombarding him and not letting him speak, that's just rude.
0:15:52 > 0:15:55We're not happy standing here saying nothing. That's not why we're here.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59When you have nothing to say, put your hand up when you're out of ideas,
0:15:59 > 0:16:00and this is the only moment I'll speak.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Otherwise, I'll be silent.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06Love, harmony, peace, none of that up there is what Jesus is about.
0:16:06 > 0:16:08I'm not in it for this.
0:16:08 > 0:16:14Well, no, but I'm not standing here like some kind of cretin ignoring, you know, ignoring the evidence.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16But I've already given you so much evidence.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20I think any reasonable person who's not perverse would have to say, "Well, this is a fairy story."
0:16:20 > 0:16:24Where did the whales go, where did the whales go in the Ark? Answer me.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Well, the thing is though is if there was someone here who was also,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30you know, well read, and understood, and had looked into this,
0:16:30 > 0:16:32then they might be able to give you a better answer.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35but I just can't, and I'm not going to stand here and try and pretend.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38To be honest, Sam, I think that is a little bit of a cop-out.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41It's a pretty straightforward question he's asking you -
0:16:41 > 0:16:42where would a whale go on a boat?
0:16:42 > 0:16:45If we're going to write off the whole thing as a miracle,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48why not say God shrunk the animals down to the size of chickpeas,
0:16:48 > 0:16:50and made them stop excreting?
0:16:50 > 0:16:55Why do you insist on comporting a completely uncomportable scenario
0:16:55 > 0:16:57of 16,000 animals on an ark,
0:16:57 > 0:17:03and trying to make that fit with a story that you are sworn to accept?
0:17:03 > 0:17:06That's the difference between you and me,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09because if there is something that would make me believe in the Ark,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12some evidence that it's possible, I haven't seen it.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15But there's no evidence I could give you that would make you give in to this,
0:17:15 > 0:17:18because you're committed to the biblical story,
0:17:18 > 0:17:21and so if any evidence goes against it, you have to say,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23"Well, God brought in a miracle there."
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Before the trip, I was expecting the gang
0:17:25 > 0:17:28to have an answer for everything I threw at them,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31but instead I'm feeling God-blocked at every turn.
0:17:31 > 0:17:37The thing we're sort of going up against is that creationism is...
0:17:37 > 0:17:39is simple. I don't mean in an offensive way,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42like it's simpleton, you know what I mean?
0:17:42 > 0:17:45But it's pretty damn straightforward and easy to understand.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47"God made it."
0:17:47 > 0:17:49Evolution is unique among scientists,
0:17:49 > 0:17:53because it strikes people in the solar plexus of their faith directly.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56It strikes them in the idea that they're especially created by God,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59because evolution says you're not.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02It says that there's no special purpose for your life,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05because it's a naturalistic philosophy.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08We have no more extrinsic purpose than a squirrel or an armadillo,
0:18:08 > 0:18:12and it says that morality does not come from God.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14It is an evolved phenomenon.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18And those are three things that are really hard for humans to accept,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21particularly if you're from a religious tradition.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25I'm worried this whole trip is turning into a fool's errand.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34Do you think that there is something in us that is so adamant,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36that, actually, we don't want to hear?
0:18:36 > 0:18:40Do you think, he was saying, "Well, yeah, I've given you this evidence,
0:18:40 > 0:18:42"I'm telling you the Ark could have not floated,
0:18:42 > 0:18:45"I'm telling you the whales would have died,"
0:18:45 > 0:18:48and he was giving us, you know, fact after fact within the science remit.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51How do you think that we are in response to that?
0:18:51 > 0:18:55It's extremely easy, if you're in a position of, I don't know,
0:18:55 > 0:18:57intellectual authority, to sort of...
0:18:59 > 0:19:00..lord it over someone.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03For example, if we were going to, I don't know,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06have a conversation about German techno,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10and I was the one that knew all about German techno and you don't,
0:19:10 > 0:19:13then I could make you look like a total fool,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16cos I can walk you all over the place.
0:19:16 > 0:19:17That didn't bother me that much.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20It was just the phrases he was using, like,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23"That's what you people would believe in - these fairy tales."
0:19:23 > 0:19:24What was that word he used?
0:19:24 > 0:19:26- Perverse.- Perverse, yeah.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30"You people are so perverse that you believe in these fairy tales."
0:19:30 > 0:19:31I was like, "What?"
0:19:31 > 0:19:36My trippers may be finding it easy to wave away the evidence, but they're not alone.
0:19:36 > 0:19:41Apparently almost half of Americans believe in some form of creationism,
0:19:41 > 0:19:44so we're off to California to meet some of them.
0:19:47 > 0:19:51These guys are on a local rally for the Tea Party,
0:19:51 > 0:19:55a growing right-wing political force in America.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57CAR HORNS BEEP
0:19:59 > 0:20:01- How you doing? - I'm fine. How are you?
0:20:01 > 0:20:05- Good. Peter.- Abdul. - Pleased to meet you, Abdul.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09- Rob.- Abdul. - You're not from here, are you?
0:20:11 > 0:20:14I was just wondering - obviously, you're a Christian,
0:20:14 > 0:20:16so you believe in creationism.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Absolutely. I believe in the literal transition of the Bible,
0:20:19 > 0:20:21I believe we were created in six days.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23And do you believe in Noah's flood and the Ark?
0:20:23 > 0:20:26Absolutely. And there's evidence of that. There's evidence of...
0:20:26 > 0:20:29So far, so good, but for the American creationists,
0:20:29 > 0:20:35their faith is also emotionally tied to some of the most controversial issues of the day.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37So what's your sort of view on abortion?
0:20:37 > 0:20:39It's murder.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42So you would actually look at a woman and say,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45"You're a murderer for killing your baby"?
0:20:45 > 0:20:47I am a murderer. I am a murderer.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52OK, so you've had an abortion? Two.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54I will remember it for the rest of my life,
0:20:54 > 0:20:57and I will regret it forever, but God has forgiven me.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02- Would you vote for somebody who was openly a Darwinist?- No.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06They could be Muslim, they could be Jewish, they could be Mormon,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09they could be Christian, as long as they believed in God.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12If they have some moral, they have some moral underpinnings,
0:21:12 > 0:21:14- but a Darwinist does not. - No?- I don't think so.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16Would you vote for an atheist?
0:21:16 > 0:21:20I'm not so sure. That's a very difficult question. I think...
0:21:20 > 0:21:24You know, it might also depend on what the situation was.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27- Who was the opponent, you know? - Yeah, exactly.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29If you had the devil as the opponent,
0:21:29 > 0:21:31you'd vote for the Darwinist!
0:21:31 > 0:21:34I wouldn't vote for him at all. I mean, really...
0:21:34 > 0:21:36You would abstain from voting if it was...?
0:21:36 > 0:21:40Yeah, because if you vote for somebody who you know eventually does things that are immoral,
0:21:40 > 0:21:42then you put that person in position,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45so you have to be willing to hold yourself accountable.
0:21:45 > 0:21:46That's why your vote must matter.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50I'm loving it here!
0:21:50 > 0:21:53Like, I know that I'm going to look like some crazy Christian,
0:21:53 > 0:21:55but I literally love these people.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58I want to move here. I want to live with them forever.
0:21:58 > 0:22:10# Oh, say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
0:22:10 > 0:22:19# O'er the land of the free... #
0:22:19 > 0:22:20Boom!
0:22:20 > 0:22:27# ..and the home of the brave? #
0:22:27 > 0:22:30WHOOPING AND CHEERING
0:22:30 > 0:22:34I'm starting to get a handle on my creationists.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37and just how wary they are around non-believers.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42So if I'm to stand any chance of getting through to them,
0:22:42 > 0:22:44my next expert has to be a man of faith, too.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50MUSLIM PRAYER CALL
0:22:57 > 0:23:01It's Friday, the most important prayer day of the week for Muslims,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04so Abdul is choosing to spend the day at the mosque,
0:23:04 > 0:23:06here in Bakersville, California.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11Being a Muslim, you know, speaks about everything,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14how you use a toilet, which foot you enter your house with,
0:23:14 > 0:23:17how you eat, what you eat, how you eat it.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20And there's an Islamic way to do things,
0:23:20 > 0:23:22and an un-Islamic way to do things.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26Abdul's dedication means that he's going to miss today's activities,
0:23:26 > 0:23:29but for him, his faith comes first.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33This takes priority over everything. It takes priority over work,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35it takes priority over meeting a scientist
0:23:35 > 0:23:38and having a discussion about evolution,
0:23:38 > 0:23:40so I need to... I need to go to the mosque.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51The rest of us are heading into big oil country,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54where people not only drill for black gold,
0:23:54 > 0:23:55but also dig for fossils.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10Now it's Bronwyn's turn to step up.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14At just 19, she's also the most recent convert to creationism.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17She found her faith while her mum was in rehab.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21My parents broke up when I was about six months old.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25My mum had a drinking problem through most part of my childhood.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28She had it really rough and while she was at rehab,
0:24:28 > 0:24:30I lived with my grandparents, who were great,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33so it was just me and them.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36Bronwyn believes the world was created in six days,
0:24:36 > 0:24:38and that humans lived alongside dinosaurs.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44I believe that dinosaurs first existed 6,000 years ago, around,
0:24:44 > 0:24:47and they were created on day six of creation week,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50with the rest of the land animals, and with Adam and Eve.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52That's what I believe.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59'So, we lived side by side with T-Rex?
0:24:59 > 0:25:01'All sounds a bit Jurassic Park to me.'
0:25:01 > 0:25:04But if humans and dinosaurs did live together,
0:25:04 > 0:25:07then surely there would be some evidence of that.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10I want my creationists to get their hands dirty,
0:25:10 > 0:25:12by joining a marine fossil dig.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Let's see if we can unearth the truth.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22I got a tooth!
0:25:22 > 0:25:24That's a baby tooth.
0:25:24 > 0:25:25I got a tooth!
0:25:25 > 0:25:27That is really tiny.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29# The band was jumpin'
0:25:29 > 0:25:30# The people, too
0:25:30 > 0:25:33# Ah, mess around
0:25:33 > 0:25:36# They doin' the mess around
0:25:36 > 0:25:38# They doin' the mess around
0:25:38 > 0:25:40# Everybody doin' the mess around... #
0:25:40 > 0:25:44So far, my fellow travellers have been dismissive
0:25:44 > 0:25:46of every scientist they've met,
0:25:46 > 0:25:50but Greg Wilkerson is not just a distinguished palaeontologist,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52but also a devout Christian.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56So maybe they'll take his science more seriously,
0:25:56 > 0:25:58- So what's that? - Another part of the vertebrae?
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Very good. I got more rib bones here.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04I guess you guys must have kept all the shark's teeth.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Yeah, there were a couple!
0:26:08 > 0:26:14One of the key points of creationism is that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17Here's the problem I have with that scenario.
0:26:17 > 0:26:22For all the fossil sandwiches that we find around the world with dinosaur fossils,
0:26:22 > 0:26:25we just don't find human fossils there.
0:26:25 > 0:26:29It's trying to take a square peg into a round hole.
0:26:29 > 0:26:36That whole world is incompatible with the world for humans.
0:26:36 > 0:26:42I mean, can you imagine pterodactyls trying to share the same sky with condors?
0:26:42 > 0:26:44I mean, they couldn't compete.
0:26:44 > 0:26:49I have to tell you that I once shared your view, OK?
0:26:49 > 0:26:57To me, to squish all of his creative power into a 4,000/6,000,
0:26:57 > 0:27:04whatever, framework is to...tarnish his glory.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08And so I just would say I...
0:27:10 > 0:27:14..am, I'm sorry for the involvement I had,
0:27:14 > 0:27:19insofar as it made people less likely to come to church.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21The points you made are really good, actually,
0:27:21 > 0:27:25and I think as well it's important to test these things out,
0:27:25 > 0:27:27because it's all very well saying something,
0:27:27 > 0:27:30but actually looking at the evidence is really important.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34I feel like uni student Sam is starting to listen
0:27:34 > 0:27:35to some of the evidence.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40But the others are more interested in judging Greg's faith,
0:27:40 > 0:27:42rather than looking at the science.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44I don't think I'll ever be half and half.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48Like, even talking, after talking to Greg, it just convinced me more
0:27:48 > 0:27:51that being half and half is just... It just doesn't make sense to me.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53It doesn't make sense to think,
0:27:53 > 0:27:56"OK, yeah, evolution happened. Oh, but then Jesus came to save us."
0:27:56 > 0:27:58No, that's not what happened.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01I think that whenever Greg looks at the Bible,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03he comes from a very dangerous position,
0:28:03 > 0:28:06in that he can interpret it whatever way he feels fit,
0:28:06 > 0:28:08and he can change that over time.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12But I would say to you that you interpret science whichever way feels fit.
0:28:12 > 0:28:17Well, the outworking of how we view the world about us starts always from the Bible, yes.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19Right. Well, I got to say this, man.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22I do wonder why the hell you're here at all.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26You take the literal word of the Bible and done, full stop.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29So again, it comes down to my point -
0:28:29 > 0:28:31why do you creationists bother at all?
0:28:31 > 0:28:37Why do you bother trying to interpret it, or go back and forth with extremely sincere scientists,
0:28:37 > 0:28:40whether they're atheists or Christian? Why bother?
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Because what they do is they put it upon everyone and they teach it as fact when it's not.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48How many creationist geologists have you invited on this trip? None.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50Yeah, but the point is...
0:28:50 > 0:28:53No, no, no. Let's break it right down. Let's be honest, Andrew,
0:28:53 > 0:28:56We have invited zero creationists in their field.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59The point isn't to reinforce your views. It's to have a debate.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02But it would have been nice to have seen a real creationist geologist.
0:29:02 > 0:29:04Oh, dude, what would be the point in that?
0:29:04 > 0:29:07- Sit with somebody who totally agrees with you? You can do that at home. - Not me. Them two.
0:29:07 > 0:29:12The point of the show is for you to discuss things and that's it.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19I thought a Christian might have been able to open them up to the science.
0:29:19 > 0:29:24Unfortunately, I seem to have only reinforced Phil's view that science is underhanded,
0:29:24 > 0:29:29and, worse, somehow he's now convinced the whole road trip is a stitch-up.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34Things are getting pretty heated.
0:29:34 > 0:29:39It's now day four of the road trip. We've made it to central California.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41Abdul's now back on board,
0:29:41 > 0:29:46so I think it's time to do something surely we can all enjoy together.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50Bing bong! Hi-de-hi, campers!
0:29:50 > 0:29:53- Hello.- WOMEN:- Hello!- Guten morgen.
0:29:53 > 0:29:57Today, I want you to meet a guy
0:29:57 > 0:30:01who shares almost 99% the same DNA as us,
0:30:02 > 0:30:05our closest living cousin...
0:30:05 > 0:30:07- Oh, you mean a monkey. - ..George Bush!
0:30:10 > 0:30:15Today, we are going to have a close, personal encounter...with a chimp.
0:30:15 > 0:30:16Yeah!
0:30:16 > 0:30:19- Abdul, have you ever met a chimp before?- A couple.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21You've met a couple?
0:30:21 > 0:30:23- On this trip.- Fair enough.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25- WOMEN:- Ohhh!
0:30:25 > 0:30:26ANDREW IMITATES A CHIMP
0:30:28 > 0:30:33We've come to meet Chris, who trains a host of wild animals.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35- SAM:- He's incredible. He's so powerful.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39A fully grown chimp can rip a human's face off,
0:30:39 > 0:30:42so we've decided to stick with Billy,
0:30:42 > 0:30:46who's still a little fella at seven years old.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48CHRIS: It's exciting, isn't it?
0:30:48 > 0:30:50THEY COO
0:30:54 > 0:30:56LAUGHTER
0:30:56 > 0:30:58- This is Billy. BRONWYN:- Hi, Billy.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01Like I said before, if he comes up to you, just, you know...
0:31:01 > 0:31:05If you don't want him to come up to you, just say so and I won't let him jump on you.
0:31:05 > 0:31:06INAUDIBLE
0:31:06 > 0:31:09..more than anything else I've ever wanted!
0:31:09 > 0:31:10Good boy, have a seat.
0:31:12 > 0:31:16Dear Jim'll Fix It, no need to fix it for me. I've just met the...
0:31:16 > 0:31:19Hey, hey, hey! No, no! He doesn't need you to pick his nose.
0:31:19 > 0:31:20Thank you, though!
0:31:20 > 0:31:21LAUGHTER
0:31:23 > 0:31:29'Creationists are appalled by the idea we are related to chimps through evolution.
0:31:29 > 0:31:34'After all, the holy Bible says that we were created separately in God's image.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36'But are we really that unique?'
0:31:36 > 0:31:39The chimpanzee has a full range of emotions?
0:31:39 > 0:31:42Yes. Yeah, they... I've seen chimps cry.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45They don't have tears like us, but they cry.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48I mean, their biological functions are very similar to us.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50BILLY SHRIEKS
0:31:53 > 0:31:57- ABDUL:- Can you see the connection between him and a human being?
0:31:57 > 0:32:00- Or do you believe...?- Oh, yeah. I see there are similarities,
0:32:00 > 0:32:04but I see a lot of similarities across the board.
0:32:04 > 0:32:08- Are you OK with him messing with your shoes?- Yeah, honestly, it's fine.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12Hey, hey! Watch your mouth, young man.
0:32:17 > 0:32:22- PHIL:- In regards to the differences, the differences are so extreme,
0:32:22 > 0:32:26in regards to, you know, what human beings can do and accomplish,
0:32:26 > 0:32:30and how they think and how they process things, and their awareness,
0:32:30 > 0:32:33or the vastness of the universe and the God who created them.
0:32:33 > 0:32:34Do you believe in God?
0:32:34 > 0:32:36Oh, yeah. Most definitely.
0:32:36 > 0:32:42And working with chimps and as a scientist hasn't really got rid of your belief in God?
0:32:42 > 0:32:45No, I've always been very pragmatic.
0:32:45 > 0:32:51For me personally, I think it's important for us as humans to come up with our own personal philosophy.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54Has working with these fabulous, fabulous people,
0:32:54 > 0:32:56these fabulous little creatures...
0:32:56 > 0:32:58I call them people, too. It's funny.
0:32:58 > 0:33:03How does it make you feel to think that you might share
0:33:03 > 0:33:08some ancestry with this, this fella, that you might be related to him?
0:33:08 > 0:33:11Because it makes me feel really happy.
0:33:11 > 0:33:16I don't get offended by it because there's a bunch of generations removed, you know.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19I have some cousins that are less desirable.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21Oh, I got to meet the chimp!
0:33:21 > 0:33:23Billy the chimp, Billy the chimp, Billy the chimp.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27Listen, you know, on this road trip, it's going to be fraught at times,
0:33:27 > 0:33:31but it's really great to have a moment like that,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34where it's something we can all share. We all enjoyed Billy.
0:33:34 > 0:33:37For me, the great little moment was when Chris was like,
0:33:37 > 0:33:40"Yeah, I call him people, too."
0:33:40 > 0:33:42Bob's your uncle there! That's it.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44That doesn't lessen God.
0:33:44 > 0:33:49I think Andrew made, you know, quite an important distinction at the end,
0:33:49 > 0:33:52you know, that Billy is an animal, and that we are humans.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56And, you know, if Andrew wants to think that he came from an animal,
0:33:56 > 0:33:59erm, you know, he has serious problems there,
0:33:59 > 0:34:01if he wants to be treated like one, too.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08Phil's become the most vocal person in the group.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12I always feared he'd be the toughest nut to crack,
0:34:12 > 0:34:15and he's definitely proving to be.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32It's Sunday, the fifth day of the trip.
0:34:32 > 0:34:37The Christians are heading to a local church in northern California.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40JoJo doesn't often go to church,
0:34:40 > 0:34:42as she prefers to follow Jesus in her way.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46If you look at his story, his life, he was about,
0:34:46 > 0:34:50you know, hanging out with the prostitutes, he was about hanging out with the misfits.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52And I believe that I'm a bit of a misfit,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55and even in the church, I'm a misfit, and that's cool.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59I don't mind that because I know that I am at one with Jesus and that Jesus loves me.
0:34:59 > 0:35:00So the church, you know...
0:35:00 > 0:35:03Sometimes I don't believe the church delivers what it needs to.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05I don't believe that the church has got it right.
0:35:05 > 0:35:10So in relation to abortion, in relation to...gay,
0:35:10 > 0:35:12you know, the gay community...
0:35:12 > 0:35:15Like, my son is actually gay, and I love him, I adore him,
0:35:15 > 0:35:18and I would never, ever change him for the world.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23JoJo's take is controversial in the church right now.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27Phil, for one, sees things very differently
0:35:27 > 0:35:29and has jumped to an odd conclusion
0:35:29 > 0:35:32about the sort of church I'm taking them to.
0:35:32 > 0:35:34- Good morning, how you doing? - How are you?
0:35:34 > 0:35:35- My name's Phil.- I'm Melvin.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38- I just have a very quick question for you before I go in here.- Sure.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41- What type of church is this? - It's a non-denominational.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44OK, that's grand. Just a normal, straightforward church?
0:35:44 > 0:35:45- A normal church?- Yeah.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48This might sound really strange, but is it a gay church?
0:35:48 > 0:35:50- HE LAUGHS - No!
0:35:50 > 0:35:55That's OK. I'm here with a BBC film crew and they're trying to set us up at every opportunity,
0:35:55 > 0:35:57so I want to know what it's about.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01- JOJO:- Hi, good morning.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05Phil has given the church a clean bill of health,
0:36:05 > 0:36:09but still has a problem with JoJo being asked about her gay-friendly views.
0:36:09 > 0:36:10He is NOT happy.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13Phil, Phil, Phil! Phil!
0:36:13 > 0:36:15Oh, my God.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17I don't want him saying anything.
0:36:17 > 0:36:21Let me just say to your face, you are a disgusting human being.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24- Excuse me?- Trying to force someone to say something on TV about nothing
0:36:24 > 0:36:27that has nothing to do with creation and evolution.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30You are a bully and a pathetic director, a complete and utter bully.
0:36:36 > 0:36:38What did you say?
0:36:38 > 0:36:40I told him he's a pathetic bully.
0:36:40 > 0:36:42Why are you doing that?
0:37:09 > 0:37:11I don't think the director's a bully.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14I also don't think Phil can pick and choose
0:37:14 > 0:37:17what parts of their faith the others can talk about.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21# God almighty... #
0:37:21 > 0:37:26I would say that the film crew are bullying us into a position that we don't want to be in,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29so if you can pray for us to be wise with our tongues,
0:37:29 > 0:37:33speak forthrightly with the truth and proclaim Jesus in every opportunity.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41The church service has turned into an unholy mess,
0:37:41 > 0:37:46so afterwards I decide to speak to Phil about what the hell just happened.
0:37:46 > 0:37:52When we got off this bus, you were...angry this morning.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54- Not angry, no.- Not angry?- No!
0:37:54 > 0:37:57What emotion were you exerting?
0:37:57 > 0:37:58- Despair.- Despair.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01You see the others as being bullied?
0:38:01 > 0:38:03Well, I think that everyone's attempting to be bullied, yes.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07- Do you feel you're being bullied? - Absolutely. Well, trying to be, yes.
0:38:07 > 0:38:08I don't bully so easily.
0:38:08 > 0:38:13Yeah! I mean, there's, for me, the startling thing straightaway, Phil -
0:38:13 > 0:38:17I can't exactly see how you would be bullied.
0:38:19 > 0:38:21I don't know if you know this, Phil,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23but you exert a lot of sort of subtle menace.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29- That's an opinion you have, Andrew. - It is my opinion I have.- OK.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31I've travelled with you for a week now.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33That's exactly my opinion.
0:38:33 > 0:38:38Give me the opportunity to speak to these other people on the bus,
0:38:38 > 0:38:42because at the moment I'm feeling like you are steering the others in the group.
0:38:43 > 0:38:46- That's your opinion, Andrew. I can't...- You don't feel that?
0:38:46 > 0:38:49- No, I don't.- Genuinely? - No, I think they have their own opinions and views,
0:38:49 > 0:38:52and have expressed them as much or as little as they choose to.
0:38:52 > 0:38:56You haven't in any way directed the others at any time during this week?
0:38:56 > 0:38:57No, definitely not. No.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02I think we've come to the end of this conversation, Andrew,
0:39:02 > 0:39:04because it's not about creation or evolution.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08ANDREW SIGHS
0:39:10 > 0:39:15Nobody else in the group has in any way expressed to me that they're being bullied.
0:39:19 > 0:39:25There's a level of disingenuous there with Phil that it's just incredible, you know.
0:39:25 > 0:39:30It's so self-evident that he is taking leadership over the group,
0:39:30 > 0:39:32but he maintains he hasn't, anyway.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37I've been trying to get each tripper to engage with the science,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40and I've come up against a united front of faith.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46But since the church, I see a split forming in the group.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49I think Phil has a big task on his hands.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53I mean, JoJo's very liberal, at the same time,
0:39:53 > 0:39:58Bronwyn's very liberal in terms of the homosexuality question,
0:39:58 > 0:40:03and he's trying to have all of them share his kind of opinion of,
0:40:03 > 0:40:06you know, hard line, boom, no.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09Not in Christianity, not...not kosher.
0:40:10 > 0:40:16I think he sees himself as the, you know, the father figure of the group and, in turn,
0:40:16 > 0:40:20in doing that is, you know, is kind of watching our steps, really.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23But I have my own life, my own children
0:40:23 > 0:40:28and I'm capable of putting down, or laying down, my boundaries,
0:40:28 > 0:40:31of what I feel is acceptable or not.
0:40:37 > 0:40:43It's day six. We've arrived in Berkeley, California, on the outskirts of San Francisco.
0:40:47 > 0:40:5220-year-old Sam, the son of a vicar, is moving firmly into Phil's camp.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58Phil is an extremely nice guy. I think he's very honest,
0:40:58 > 0:41:03he's very clear about his intentions and he is very knowledgeable,
0:41:03 > 0:41:05but he's also a lot older than me.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08You know, he's had more time to think about it.
0:41:08 > 0:41:09I really respect him
0:41:09 > 0:41:14and I think he is extremely honest about his positions.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17After hitting the books each evening,
0:41:17 > 0:41:21he's come to a revelation, and it's not quite the one I was looking for.
0:41:21 > 0:41:22As far as I can tell,
0:41:22 > 0:41:26from looking at a lot of the evidence that we were looking at,
0:41:26 > 0:41:28and looking at what the Bible says,
0:41:28 > 0:41:31I think a young Earth is totally, totally possible.
0:41:31 > 0:41:36I have no issue with that anymore and if that's what I've taken out of the trip, then great,
0:41:36 > 0:41:38cos that's what I came here for, was answers, you know,
0:41:38 > 0:41:40answers that I could come to draw to myself.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45Sam's particular claim has been tested today,
0:41:45 > 0:41:49which is why we're at Berkeley, the University of California.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53As a bastion of science, this is like a lion's den for creationists.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55- BRONWYN:- Those guys are cute!
0:41:55 > 0:41:58ABDUL: What are you doing? Can we just chill out?
0:41:58 > 0:42:00THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:42:00 > 0:42:05# You're too sexy for this bus Too sexy for this bus
0:42:05 > 0:42:08# Too sexy it hurts! #
0:42:08 > 0:42:11Can we focus on what we're doing in about 30 seconds?
0:42:11 > 0:42:14Which is meeting, probably, a professor from Berkeley University
0:42:14 > 0:42:18who's going to eat you alive due to the fact that, you know,
0:42:18 > 0:42:21you spend the majority of the time thinking about how hot guys are.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23Can I just say something?
0:42:23 > 0:42:26I stand assured that YOU have got this under control.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31Sam would never believe that he and Billy the chimp are distant relatives.
0:42:31 > 0:42:35He's certain that human life began with Adam and a spare-rib Eve.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42So all the biblical position is on all this,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45is that there was a man and a woman at the very beginning -
0:42:45 > 0:42:46Adam and Eve, if you will.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49They're our common ancestors that, if we were in the Garden of Eden,
0:42:49 > 0:42:51we could have gone and shook hands with.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54We're all part of that same genealogy.
0:42:54 > 0:42:58I always thought Adam and Eve weren't meant to be taken literally,
0:42:58 > 0:43:02so we're going to meet professor of evolutionary biology Tim White,
0:43:02 > 0:43:05for a shake of our family tree.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08THEY GREET EACH OTHER IN ARABIC
0:43:09 > 0:43:11What are your ideas on human evolution?
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Well, we have Adam and Eve initially, OK?
0:43:14 > 0:43:17And, then, so pick me up if I'm wrong, but this is,
0:43:17 > 0:43:21you know, cos it'd be a lot easier with the Bible in front of me,
0:43:21 > 0:43:25but we then have, so their children were Cain and Abel, is that correct?
0:43:25 > 0:43:26Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
0:43:26 > 0:43:31Yeah, sorry. I'm just checking with everyone, just to make sure I'm not making any errors here, OK?
0:43:31 > 0:43:36From there, um, they then had, er, children from there.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39- So Cain and Abel had a child?- Mm-hm.
0:43:39 > 0:43:40- BRONWYN:- No.
0:43:40 > 0:43:44ABDUL: Cain and Abel are two dudes. They can't have a kid.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:43:46 > 0:43:50The point is, you're saying DNA's changed that much in 6,500 years,
0:43:50 > 0:43:52that 6,500 years ago,
0:43:52 > 0:43:56it was genetically viable to have it off with your sister?
0:43:56 > 0:43:59The Bible says right here, when it comes to the time of Moses,
0:43:59 > 0:44:02that it then forbids brothers and sisters to marry.
0:44:02 > 0:44:04The Bible's very specific about the reason for that -
0:44:04 > 0:44:06it says they're now too close.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09TIM: Is that true for all of you?
0:44:09 > 0:44:12Can I...? Phil, I'm not trying to challenge you at all.
0:44:12 > 0:44:16I just would like to ask a question inasmuch as, um, obviously,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18I believe the Bible as well,
0:44:18 > 0:44:21but you're saying that in the beginning God made mankind,
0:44:21 > 0:44:27so why are they getting close and then he'd just kind of stop it further on down the line.
0:44:27 > 0:44:28I don't get that.
0:44:28 > 0:44:33As we're heading downhill genetically, it comes to a point in time where God says,
0:44:33 > 0:44:34"Your genetics are too close.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37"You should no longer marry your brother or your sister".
0:44:37 > 0:44:41There are some hair-raising ideas about DNA and incest being bandied about.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46Tim, however, is just interested in the evidence.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50He's dug up hundreds of human-like skulls
0:44:50 > 0:44:52from the same valley in Ethiopia.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55Carbon-dating has put them at different ages,
0:44:55 > 0:44:59but can Sam put them in chronological order by sight alone?
0:44:59 > 0:45:03- Let's go, let's take that one. That one is right from...- What is that?
0:45:03 > 0:45:06That's from a million years old.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08Oh, it's like this, so these are the eyes.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10That's right.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13So I suppose it would probably go over here cos the...
0:45:13 > 0:45:15- Where the brow comes up...- Perfect!
0:45:15 > 0:45:17- ..it's quite similar to this one. - You got it!- Oop!
0:45:17 > 0:45:18- Careful now!- Sorry!
0:45:18 > 0:45:24They may not be the real fossils but there's only one copy in the United States so we don't want to break it.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27I'm probably going to put this one here, I think.
0:45:27 > 0:45:32Now, you got the order exactly correct because what we find -
0:45:32 > 0:45:35that's the closest to the top...
0:45:35 > 0:45:37You got one out of order, the canyon one.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39- Is that right, there?- That's good.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42Then we get back to four and a half million years ago.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45Now, remember I talked about one valley in Africa,
0:45:45 > 0:45:48one stack of rocks.
0:45:48 > 0:45:54Now, according to the idea that humans haven't changed
0:45:54 > 0:45:57and that we should find humans all the way back,
0:45:57 > 0:46:00now we got a problem in terms of the evidence,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03because we don't find any of those guys
0:46:03 > 0:46:05down in the early records.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09And we don't find any of these in the later records.
0:46:09 > 0:46:11So it looks like that model,
0:46:11 > 0:46:15where it should be all humans, all the way back, fails.
0:46:15 > 0:46:18It says a lot. I mean, I understand what your logic is.
0:46:18 > 0:46:20I understand how you got here.
0:46:20 > 0:46:25I haven't seen a case of natural selection making an organism change from one species to another species.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28Neither have I, because we don't live long enough, bro!
0:46:28 > 0:46:31- One second. I think... - We don't live long enough!
0:46:31 > 0:46:35- The neat thing we've got in this fossil record is nearly... - It's conjecture.
0:46:35 > 0:46:38It's not conjecture. It's evidence and reason.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41We have almost a kilometre of rocks, over a kilometre,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45and we can actually ask the question, what do we see?
0:46:45 > 0:46:47We go back through time and this is what we see.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53- BRONWYN:- You're on the wrong end.
0:46:53 > 0:46:54LAUGHTER
0:46:54 > 0:46:56I was waiting for somebody to do it.
0:46:56 > 0:47:00I'd thought it'd be blabbermouth, but you got in there first.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04Hearing all of this is, you know,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07eye-opening, and it's just, like, taking it in.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10If everybody's coming up with the same conclusion,
0:47:10 > 0:47:12I don't want to be blinkered.
0:47:12 > 0:47:14Then don't be, don't be blinkered.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Oh, it stresses my head.
0:47:18 > 0:47:19Same.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22I mean, what would change your mind, honestly?
0:47:22 > 0:47:24Nothing. And that sounds so narrow-minded. I really...
0:47:24 > 0:47:26No, it doesn't sound narrow-minded.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29It does, cos I don't want to be the person that's like,
0:47:29 > 0:47:34"OK, so I've just come on this trip for ten days and nothing you show me is going to change my mind."
0:47:34 > 0:47:35That is like "whoo".
0:47:35 > 0:47:39But then, at the same time, I'm like, "It can't. It can't."
0:47:39 > 0:47:40Like, I can't even tell you,
0:47:40 > 0:47:43but it really, it can't, because of the faith that I have.
0:47:43 > 0:47:45If I started accepting all of this,
0:47:45 > 0:47:49then I've got to accept that everything else is a pile of crap,
0:47:49 > 0:47:51and I don't accept that.
0:47:52 > 0:47:56I think the signs are starting to make sense for JoJo at least,
0:47:56 > 0:47:58but if it puts her faith at stake,
0:47:58 > 0:48:01I wonder if she'd ever find a way to accept it.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12There's only two more days of the trip left.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15Everyone's had a morning off sightseeing.
0:48:15 > 0:48:17but now we're waiting for Sam and Phil.
0:48:17 > 0:48:22They're already an hour late and we've got a six-hour drive ahead of us.
0:48:22 > 0:48:25We said to Phil, like JoJo said, "We need to be back by one,"
0:48:25 > 0:48:29and he's like, "Well, if we're back, we're back. If we're not back, we're not back,"
0:48:29 > 0:48:30- and we were like...- He's mocking it.
0:48:30 > 0:48:34I think Phil had in mind where Phil wanted to go today.
0:48:36 > 0:48:38I can't see them at all.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42Eventually, Phil and Sam turn up.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47- Yeah, but you were stood right behind us.- I know.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50- Then I stopped for two minutes to try and look for a jumper.- I know.
0:48:51 > 0:48:53PHIL WHISTLES JAUNTILY
0:48:55 > 0:48:58What a joke. Seriously, a joke.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04Now the group have split, our mission have taken a back seat.
0:49:04 > 0:49:06Phil doesn't want to talk to anyone,
0:49:06 > 0:49:09but Abdul wants to make one point clear.
0:49:09 > 0:49:14He's evasive and rude, mocking the situation for an hour and a bit,
0:49:14 > 0:49:18came back with an attitude of "What? I'm sorry. What? I'm sorry.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21"I'm sorry. What else do you want me to say? Sorry, that's it."
0:49:21 > 0:49:25What that shows is a lack of respect which, literally, if that's the case,
0:49:25 > 0:49:29if that's how he's playing it, this is how I'm playing it.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32Literally, I don't want it, and if other people don't do the same,
0:49:32 > 0:49:36I'm distancing myself from those people as well, you understand?
0:49:44 > 0:49:46- BRONWYN:- 'I think Phil is isolating himself
0:49:46 > 0:49:48'and then also isolating Sam now,
0:49:48 > 0:49:50'and it's just the two of them.'
0:49:53 > 0:49:54After we came back,
0:49:54 > 0:49:57Abdul made it clear he didn't want to talk to Phil anymore.
0:49:57 > 0:50:00Then Phil made it clear he wasn't talking to me or JoJo,
0:50:00 > 0:50:02and it was just ridiculous.
0:50:10 > 0:50:11The group is at loggerheads,
0:50:11 > 0:50:14but at least we've all made it to rural Nevada intact.
0:50:14 > 0:50:19We're here to ask the final, mind-boggling creation question -
0:50:19 > 0:50:21how life began.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24With creationism, it's simple - God did it.
0:50:24 > 0:50:28But are scientists trying to remove him from the picture?
0:50:31 > 0:50:34It's Abdul's turn to present to the group.
0:50:34 > 0:50:40He thinks that scientists are simply wrong when they say God wasn't needed for life to begin.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43They've created entire worlds of fiction with no evidence,
0:50:43 > 0:50:47and they say, generally, things just popped into existence from the surroundings.
0:50:47 > 0:50:52The idea of a creator seems more intelligible as a concept,
0:50:52 > 0:50:54more reasonable and less of a jump.
0:50:54 > 0:50:58But if God didn't create life, what on earth did?
0:50:58 > 0:51:00We've come to Gerlach, Nevada,
0:51:00 > 0:51:04to meet professor of astrophysics, Michael Russell,
0:51:04 > 0:51:07in a place that looks totally out of this world.
0:51:07 > 0:51:10- BRONWYN:- Oh, that is amazing! - PHIL: Yeah, that's very good.
0:51:10 > 0:51:12That is amazing!
0:51:12 > 0:51:14I feel like a kid at Christmas!
0:51:14 > 0:51:16This is like... Oh, my gosh! This is amazing.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19It's kind of complicated,
0:51:19 > 0:51:23but Michael thinks life started out of this sort of thing.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26What we're looking at is bacteria. It's just coated with bacteria.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28Some of them are photosynthesizers.
0:51:28 > 0:51:32They're the green ones or the so-called cyanobacteria,
0:51:32 > 0:51:36and they've actually been purloined by other bacteria to make, actually,
0:51:36 > 0:51:38what we now think of as the plant life,
0:51:38 > 0:51:41whereas the red bacteria have been purloined by
0:51:41 > 0:51:44what we now think of as animal life.
0:51:44 > 0:51:49And because of this, we consider that maybe life started at a place like this, but underneath the sea.
0:51:49 > 0:51:54So Michael thinks underwater versions of these giant geysers
0:51:54 > 0:51:58were the perfect place for the first living cells to develop.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01We have a wee rhyme. It's, "One, two, skip a few, 99, 100."
0:52:01 > 0:52:03That was a really good example of it.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06That's a great idea(!) You should say it again.
0:52:06 > 0:52:08Maybe you should write it up in a paper.
0:52:08 > 0:52:13- ABDUL: I like science. I don't want to be painted out to be someone who's against science.- No, no, no.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15What I like about science is things that we know.
0:52:15 > 0:52:18I don't think science should present things they don't know
0:52:18 > 0:52:20the same way they present things they do know.
0:52:20 > 0:52:22I think there's a sleight of hand,
0:52:22 > 0:52:25and it disheartens someone who loves science like me a great deal.
0:52:25 > 0:52:27I think science should be undisputable,
0:52:27 > 0:52:29but it's not that way when you start...
0:52:29 > 0:52:30Are you using sleight of hand?
0:52:30 > 0:52:35Well, it's no use to me. The whole point is you have to feel your own integrity.
0:52:35 > 0:52:37I mean, I've got to be an instrument of science.
0:52:37 > 0:52:42The best instruments of science, you've got to rely on, they've got to be precise and accurate.
0:52:42 > 0:52:47What do you think men like Michael are actually doing?
0:52:47 > 0:52:51They are giving you an alternative estimation which has no need or involvement for God.
0:52:51 > 0:52:54- So, it's...- In direct opposition.
0:52:54 > 0:52:59It is a deliberately God-less explanation of life.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02- Yes.- Why? Why would he do that?
0:53:02 > 0:53:05You know, I've explained this many times over the course of the...
0:53:05 > 0:53:08Well, there's somebody who's right in front of us,
0:53:08 > 0:53:10It's not a they. It's Michael. We can actually..
0:53:10 > 0:53:13I want to see what you think Michael is actually up to.
0:53:13 > 0:53:17I would say that the people who want to explain life without God
0:53:17 > 0:53:21want a God-less universe because they don't want the baggage of Jesus Christ.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24They don't want the sin, they don't want the judgement,
0:53:24 > 0:53:27they don't want the other aspects of God involved in their life,
0:53:27 > 0:53:29so they can live whatever way they choose,
0:53:29 > 0:53:31and they can die whatever way they choose,
0:53:31 > 0:53:35and they can go wherever they choose whenever they die, if anywhere.
0:53:35 > 0:53:39To me, it seems extraordinary that, for hundreds of years,
0:53:39 > 0:53:43scientists have concocted absolute nonsense just so we can do as we please.
0:53:44 > 0:53:46There IS no conspiracy.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00We've reached the end of a very long road,
0:54:00 > 0:54:04and I'd like to know exactly where everyone stands now.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09Is there anything that has specifically changed in your mind?
0:54:09 > 0:54:12You know, I know now that there's a lot of research that I need to do.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15I just want to know more and I think when I get home,
0:54:15 > 0:54:18that's definitely something I'm going to look into.
0:54:18 > 0:54:20I do think that, you know,
0:54:20 > 0:54:22I believe in a young earth,
0:54:22 > 0:54:24which is a bit nuts, but I'm down with that.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28- That's fine as far as I'm concerned. - Really?!- Yeah, definitely.
0:54:28 > 0:54:29ANDREW LAUGHS
0:54:29 > 0:54:32You're a man of a thousand surprises.
0:54:32 > 0:54:36Has there been anything that any of the scientists have said to you
0:54:36 > 0:54:40that has changed your mind, opinions, beliefs in any way?
0:54:40 > 0:54:43No. I mean, the Bible says you should always be ready to give answers,
0:54:43 > 0:54:48and I thank God that he's raised up men who are capable of giving answers in their own specific fields.
0:54:48 > 0:54:52There's nothing that has really been raised that I won't be able to get an answer to,
0:54:52 > 0:54:54or didn't have an answer for at the time.
0:54:54 > 0:54:58I think I've been the voice of reason throughout.
0:54:58 > 0:55:01I think, um, it might sound a little bit conceited,
0:55:01 > 0:55:05but I don't think...Christianity really did too well.
0:55:05 > 0:55:09Erm, I don't think evolutionary theory did too well.
0:55:09 > 0:55:14I think Islam made it out absolutely unscathed, I think.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18So has anyone been moved by the experience?
0:55:18 > 0:55:23Evolution - are you completely certain it didn't happen?
0:55:23 > 0:55:27You know, my faith hasn't been moved, inasmuch as I believe in God,
0:55:27 > 0:55:32but it doesn't mean to say that God could not have created or caused evolution.
0:55:32 > 0:55:34- He used evolution as...? - Yeah, absolutely.
0:55:34 > 0:55:37Again, I'm not wanting to be closed off.
0:55:37 > 0:55:39I mean, there's too much evidence.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42I mean, you're looking at all the stuff and you're just like,
0:55:42 > 0:55:44"Hang on a minute - how are people being so blinkered?"
0:55:44 > 0:55:47I just... I don't want to be blinkered, I want to be open.
0:55:48 > 0:55:52I'm really pleased JoJo has taken a step closer to my position -
0:55:53 > 0:55:56that to have an open-hearted faith,
0:55:56 > 0:55:58you've got to have an open mind as well.
0:56:03 > 0:56:07I understand people have faith and I understand how people have faith,
0:56:07 > 0:56:11because...if it is given its due regard,
0:56:11 > 0:56:16it can bring an enormous amount of joy to people's lives.
0:56:16 > 0:56:17But...
0:56:18 > 0:56:23..my idea of God, you know, is a giant eternally loving being.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26Like, he's either in all the texts, you know,
0:56:26 > 0:56:28or he's in none of the texts.
0:56:28 > 0:56:32He's either in the good faith that these scientists go about their work,
0:56:32 > 0:56:35or he doesn't exist at all, you know what I mean?
0:56:35 > 0:56:39There's either a God for all of us or there's a God for none of us, you know?
0:56:39 > 0:56:48# How many roads must a man walk down before you call him a man?
0:56:50 > 0:56:58# How many seas must the white dove sail before she sleeps in the sand?
0:57:00 > 0:57:05# Yes, an' how many times must the cannonballs fly
0:57:05 > 0:57:10# Before they're forever banned? #