0:00:03 > 0:00:09This is Hilary Devey's empire - an international haulage network.
0:00:09 > 0:00:14I built this business in the most male-dominated sector
0:00:14 > 0:00:15you could ever imagine.
0:00:15 > 0:00:19I didn't let being a woman stand in my way.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22If I can do it, why can't every woman do it?
0:00:22 > 0:00:26More than half of Britain's graduates are women.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Nearly half of Britain's workers are women.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33But the vast majority of top jobs are held by men.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36You are talking to potential investors into your business.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40It was your job to make us aware. You would make my foot itch, mate.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43As one of the nation's most prominent entrepreneurs,
0:00:43 > 0:00:45Hilary Devey thinks she knows
0:00:45 > 0:00:48what's stopping more women from climbing the career ladder.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52There is no glass ceiling, I'm living proof of that.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54If you want it, go out and fight for it.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Hilary's on a mission to test
0:00:56 > 0:00:59whether her beliefs about women in business are correct.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02She'll learn there's a growing body of evidence
0:01:02 > 0:01:05to show that business performs better with women.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Women now are a very large part of the workforce.
0:01:08 > 0:01:09Women actually have earned the right
0:01:09 > 0:01:12to do what they want to do when they want to do it.
0:01:12 > 0:01:13Jobs used to be about brawn
0:01:13 > 0:01:16and now they're really in this country about brain,
0:01:16 > 0:01:19and women's brains are under-utilised in the business world.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Employers who don't realise the power of women in the workforce,
0:01:23 > 0:01:25I don't think they're going to survive.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Along the way, Hilary will be finding out
0:01:28 > 0:01:33about the obstacles women face. Is recruitment biased in favour of men?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35You're finding words like "engage," "execute."
0:01:35 > 0:01:38To my mind, they might as well say they're looking for a bloke!
0:01:38 > 0:01:42How much is the system stacked against women with families?
0:01:42 > 0:01:47It's the whole childcare versus your wages, it just doesn't add up.
0:01:47 > 0:01:53Or is it, as Hilary suspects, that very few aspire to a life like hers?
0:01:53 > 0:01:57There are self-sacrifices to be made and I've little time for women
0:01:57 > 0:02:01who won't make those self-sacrifices and then moan about it.
0:02:01 > 0:02:02Hearing some home truths
0:02:02 > 0:02:06about the prospects for women inside her own business
0:02:06 > 0:02:09could make her see things in a new light.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12Is Hilary Devey a fantastic, authentic, role model
0:02:12 > 0:02:15leader for other women, or is she a queen bee,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18who loves to keep power in a male-dominated environment?
0:02:18 > 0:02:21Hilary's determined to find solutions
0:02:21 > 0:02:25that will transform the lives of working women.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29But first, she's going to have to find out
0:02:29 > 0:02:33why there are still so few women at the top.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43As a woman who built her own £100 million a year business empire,
0:02:43 > 0:02:46Hilary Devey believes success comes down
0:02:46 > 0:02:49to tough choices and hard graft.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54It might be a little bit more difficult for a woman
0:02:54 > 0:02:58than it is for a man, so she's got to work harder - fact.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02I truly believe it's not up to the employers
0:03:02 > 0:03:07to make it happen for women, it's down to the individual.
0:03:07 > 0:03:12Are they the right person in the right job at the right time?
0:03:12 > 0:03:15Hilary's going to be looking for solutions,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18but first she needs to find out why so few women
0:03:18 > 0:03:21are making it into key roles, and to investigate
0:03:21 > 0:03:24the multitude of factors that stop them from rising through the ranks.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27I am not interested in going on this journey
0:03:27 > 0:03:30for the sake of political correctness.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35What I want to ascertain is, are women good for business,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37and can we prove that?
0:03:37 > 0:03:39If I find anything that will make my own business
0:03:39 > 0:03:43a better and more profitable working environment,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47then I will most certainly be implementing it immediately.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51PHONE RINGS
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Good morning, Pall-Ex, Claire speaking.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Hilary's attempt to get to grips
0:03:55 > 0:03:58with the problems women face in business will begin
0:03:58 > 0:04:02at the company she founded 16 years ago.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04Pall-Ex is an international logistics network
0:04:04 > 0:04:08with its headquarters right in the middle of Britain
0:04:08 > 0:04:09in Ellistown, Leicestershire.
0:04:09 > 0:04:14Oh, there's all sorts in here - baths, logs, trees,
0:04:14 > 0:04:18pallets of food, pallets of dog food, stone, brick.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Anything that's on a pallet, we will move it.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Hilary's going to start by taking soundings
0:04:31 > 0:04:35from some of the rising stars from her management team.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37Hello, Holly. Hello, Rohini.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41She wants to present them with a stark dilemma which she suspects
0:04:41 > 0:04:45is at the heart of women's failure to succeed in business.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47I want you to join a debate with me.
0:04:47 > 0:04:48If I was to say to you,
0:04:48 > 0:04:52you could have either a place on a board at a business,
0:04:52 > 0:04:57would you choose that against your balance of having a child
0:04:57 > 0:05:00and bringing your child up till they went to school?
0:05:00 > 0:05:02- No, I wouldn't.- You would choose...
0:05:02 > 0:05:04I would, well, I think it depends on your situation,
0:05:04 > 0:05:07but me, personally, I would have a family.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10I think if the salaries for women were equal to that of men,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13so if I knew like my wife, Deb, is she went out to work
0:05:13 > 0:05:16and was earning an equivalent salary, or had the opportunity
0:05:16 > 0:05:18to do that in a fairly short space of time,
0:05:18 > 0:05:21me staying at home, yeah, great. I'd do that.
0:05:21 > 0:05:26So you'd resign from your board position and become a house husband?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28Yeah, yeah, cos I spend a lot of time working.
0:05:28 > 0:05:29I don't spend much time with bringing Kera up.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33If you have the choice of saying work, carry on in your career,
0:05:33 > 0:05:39and your husband then stays at home, looks after the children,
0:05:39 > 0:05:41- would that happen? - If I earned more money,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43then I wouldn't mind my husband staying at home.
0:05:43 > 0:05:50What would be more important to you, then? Your career or your home life?
0:05:50 > 0:05:52- I would say career.- Your career?
0:05:52 > 0:05:54I would balance it out where I would still try
0:05:54 > 0:05:58and fit my children in, but definitely career.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03But there are very few women like you. There are very few.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05I think you said that you'd choose...
0:06:05 > 0:06:08I couldn't give up a family for a career.
0:06:10 > 0:06:14Of all the three there, the one that surprised me the most was Holly.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21I think what I'd really like to see is for both employers and females
0:06:21 > 0:06:23to have the best of both worlds.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26I'm not going to keep females out of my workplace
0:06:26 > 0:06:31simply because they want to develop the next generation of children.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33That's wrong!
0:06:41 > 0:06:43In fact, record numbers of women are working mothers.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46More than two thirds of mums work nowadays,
0:06:46 > 0:06:50compared to less than a quarter 40 years ago.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54But women haven't swept into senior roles at the same rate.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57Hilary's heard conflicting opinions from her own team,
0:06:57 > 0:07:01now it's time for her to see the scale of the problem.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Everything starts so promisingly for young women in education,
0:07:04 > 0:07:07where they outshine boys at school
0:07:07 > 0:07:10and outnumber young men at university.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12- Hi, Ceri.- Hi, Hilary, how are you?
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Ceri Goddard is a leading campaigner for equality.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Here at University College London, she's going to show Hilary
0:07:19 > 0:07:24what happens to promising graduates once they're out in the workplace.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26She's assembled a group of young men and women
0:07:26 > 0:07:29to represent the male and female managers
0:07:29 > 0:07:32who work in Britain's biggest businesses.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34At the base of the management pyramid
0:07:34 > 0:07:37are two rows of middle managers.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39Above them are senior managers.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Up at the top of the pyramid are the highfliers
0:07:43 > 0:07:47who make it into jobs as executives and boardroom bosses.
0:07:47 > 0:07:52With men in blue and women in red, this is how the pyramid would look
0:07:52 > 0:07:57if men and women were rising through the ranks at equal rates at every level.
0:07:59 > 0:08:05This pyramid shows if we had full equality in our business leaders.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08You can see 50% men, 50% women,
0:08:08 > 0:08:10but of course the reality is very different.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Middle managers, can you go!
0:08:13 > 0:08:19The reality is that men hold 70% of middle management jobs
0:08:19 > 0:08:22in Britain's top companies. Even at this level,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24women are failing to be promoted
0:08:24 > 0:08:27into these roles at the same rate as men.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29Why do you think so many females are leaving
0:08:29 > 0:08:32when they get into middle management positions?
0:08:32 > 0:08:35There's a number of factors contributing to that.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38Women still do the vast majority of child care in this country.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41Also, often, looking after older relatives and others.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44We have a culture of long working hours
0:08:44 > 0:08:47and even though we've had this big move of women into the workforce,
0:08:47 > 0:08:50it hasn't really changed to reflect that fact.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53But when you get to senior management level
0:08:53 > 0:08:56and board and executive, the picture is far, far worse.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00OK, can senior managers please leave!
0:09:00 > 0:09:05The proportion of women dwindles still further at senior management,
0:09:05 > 0:09:07executive and board level.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11Here, in the roles that wield real power,
0:09:11 > 0:09:1383% of jobs are filled by men.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17You've got particular issues with boards and senior executives.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Here you have a very small pool of mostly men,
0:09:20 > 0:09:23who then appoint what they know,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26which is other men and the old boys' network is alive and kicking.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Well, there's not too many females left in this pyramid, is there?
0:09:31 > 0:09:32No, it's really quite shocking.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35Do you think it's anything to do with women
0:09:35 > 0:09:38not being as vociferous as they could be?
0:09:38 > 0:09:42Are we just standing back as females and letting it happen?
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Why should women have to fight harder than men?
0:09:45 > 0:09:47You should have to fight to get to the top but you shouldn't have
0:09:47 > 0:09:51- additional barriers because you're a woman.- No, you shouldn't,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54but the fact is, you're not going to change genetics overnight, are you?
0:09:54 > 0:09:59And women are modelled to give birth are modelled to be nurturers.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02You're not going to change the biological clock, are you?
0:10:02 > 0:10:04- So what we've got to do... - I don't think you need
0:10:04 > 0:10:07to change women's biology to make our workplaces fair.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09Why don't we change the workplace to reflect the fact
0:10:09 > 0:10:12that half of the people now working in them are women.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16From your perspective, campaigning for women, I think it's better
0:10:16 > 0:10:19to acknowledge that women need to stand up, need to be counted,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22need to fight. No, you shouldn't have to,
0:10:22 > 0:10:24but unfortunately you're going to have to.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27I think despite business taking strides and addressing this,
0:10:27 > 0:10:30- we're just not moving fast enough in this country.- No we're not.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33- Waste of talent. - It's a shocking waste of talent.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35It's bad for the women and bad for our economy.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37It's bad for business.
0:10:37 > 0:10:43The loss of so much talent from the workplace has got Hilary fired up.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45She wants to know what the students think,
0:10:45 > 0:10:49now they've got the measure of women's career prospects.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52How do you feel about what you've just seen?
0:10:52 > 0:10:56Um, yeah, I suppose it's a bit of a shock and a bit demoralising.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00So, you was kind of merrily going on, taking your degree
0:11:00 > 0:11:03in the hope that one day, you'll end up on top in a boardroom.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07Absolutely. I think that's what most girls our age think now.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09What about you, Isabelle?
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Yeah, I just thought it was a real shock.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15I thought they would have been problems from years and years ago,
0:11:15 > 0:11:16when it was more the traditional role
0:11:16 > 0:11:20of the man as a breadwinner and the woman bringing up the children.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23I'm hoping that one of you girls is going to say,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26"I don't care, I'm still going to get there,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29"and I'm prepared to fight for it."
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Definitely, I will remember this moment.
0:11:32 > 0:11:37Well done. Shake my hand, well done. What about you?
0:11:39 > 0:11:43Ever mindful of the bottom line, Hilary is struck by the inefficiency
0:11:43 > 0:11:47of a system that largely promotes from within one half of its intake.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52We're losing a shocking amount of sheer talent
0:11:52 > 0:11:53from the business sector.
0:11:53 > 0:11:58With Britain spending £21 billion a year on recruitment,
0:11:58 > 0:12:01it's also a serious drain on resources.
0:12:01 > 0:12:07The costs of recruitment and training to any business is phenomenal,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10so the more we can retain our skill set,
0:12:10 > 0:12:13the more a business can retain its talent,
0:12:13 > 0:12:18the more that business will prosper and flourish.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26Now Hilary wants to learn how business would benefit
0:12:26 > 0:12:28if the female brain drain could be stopped.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Sir Roger Carr heads the Confederation of British Industry.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40- Sir Roger, what a pleasure. - Yeah, I'm delighted to meet you.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44Now, I've seen firsthand just how much talent is being lost
0:12:44 > 0:12:47as women disappear from the workplace.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51What does this mean to UK PLC?
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I think that the loss of that talent pool
0:12:54 > 0:12:56is financially damaging for business
0:12:56 > 0:12:59and it's also damaging for the health of an organisation.
0:12:59 > 0:13:04The common sense facts are that businesses comprise customers
0:13:04 > 0:13:07who are male and female, employees who are male and female,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10and normally shareholders, male and female.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13And therefore to have a company that is run
0:13:13 > 0:13:15exclusively by one gender or the other,
0:13:15 > 0:13:20you're simply not running the business in an appropriate manner.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24What do you think women bring to the table?
0:13:24 > 0:13:27They bring a different life experience
0:13:27 > 0:13:30and therefore they change the nature of the debate.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34It becomes more positive, more constructive
0:13:34 > 0:13:37and ultimately leads to better decision making.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39And for the United Kingdom,
0:13:39 > 0:13:41better business with a better competitive edge
0:13:41 > 0:13:45is utterly critical to our growth and that's important to all of us.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58In the past, arguments in favour of improving women's working lives
0:13:58 > 0:14:01were based on equal opportunities.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08Campaigners in the 1970s fought for equal pay
0:14:08 > 0:14:12and against sex discrimination in recruitment and promotions.
0:14:15 > 0:14:19But now the case for women is backed up by evidence which shows
0:14:19 > 0:14:22that companies with a mix of men and women in leadership positions
0:14:22 > 0:14:26make better decisions and are better run.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Research comparing the financial results of American companies
0:14:29 > 0:14:33with the most women on their boards to those with the fewest
0:14:33 > 0:14:37indicates that more mixed leadership tends to deliver higher sales,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41and higher returns on equity and invested capital.
0:14:41 > 0:14:46Businesses at all levels work better with a gender mix
0:14:46 > 0:14:49and most businesses see that.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53They've already understood that this is not something to aspire to.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56It is something they need to grip very quickly
0:14:56 > 0:14:58because in today's world,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01- you want all the competitive edge you can get.- Absolutely. - And women bring that.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07Now Hilary's seen how few women are rising through the ranks
0:15:07 > 0:15:09and she's heard how urgently
0:15:09 > 0:15:12business needs more women at the top.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16Next, she's going to visit a company where bosses have transformed
0:15:16 > 0:15:19the prospects of their employees.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21They decided to be very proactive
0:15:21 > 0:15:24in a way of retaining their female talent
0:15:24 > 0:15:26and helping them up the corporate ladder,
0:15:26 > 0:15:31so I'm on my way to see how they went about achieving this.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34The company was Procter & Gamble,
0:15:34 > 0:15:39the world's biggest consumer goods business, with 135,000 employees
0:15:39 > 0:15:44and a roster of some of the world's best-selling brands.
0:15:44 > 0:15:4812 years ago, none of the company's most senior managers or directors was female.
0:15:48 > 0:15:53Geraldine Huse was a solitary woman in a sea of grey suits.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59This is Geraldine's team today. With an even mix of men and women,
0:15:59 > 0:16:03it's a 50/50 balance replicated at every level.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Your story began when you noticed a mass exodus
0:16:09 > 0:16:14of female highly-skilled talent leaving the business.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16People in the business tended to think
0:16:16 > 0:16:19they were leaving for family reasons, to have a baby
0:16:19 > 0:16:21or to stay at home with the children.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23Or, it's a pretty stressful environment here,
0:16:23 > 0:16:28and there was a thought that maybe it's more suited to a male style than a female style.
0:16:29 > 0:16:33P&G contacted women who had left to find out why they'd gone.
0:16:33 > 0:16:38It turned out that they weren't at home with children after all.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41And even I was surprised that 95% of them
0:16:41 > 0:16:43had gone on to do another job.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46So they hadn't left because of family circumstances,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48they'd gone to do another job.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52- So they actually, physically went and sought other employment.- Yes.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55They'd just resigned because they felt...
0:16:55 > 0:16:59When we asked them why, they said they felt that their style
0:16:59 > 0:17:04and their work-life balance would not work at Procter & Gamble.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06The problem looked even more serious
0:17:06 > 0:17:10when P&G analyzed the business results of its teams.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Teams that were all-male, like the laundry team,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16or all-female like the cosmetics team
0:17:16 > 0:17:19didn't perform as well as teams with a gender balance.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Mixed teams performed 5% better,
0:17:22 > 0:17:25an advantage worth millions of pounds in sales.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Company bosses realised they had to take action.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33In a business that thrives on consumer understanding,
0:17:33 > 0:17:36in a business that thrives in really getting to know
0:17:36 > 0:17:40habits and attitudes, usage patterns,
0:17:40 > 0:17:44I think it just makes absolute sense that
0:17:44 > 0:17:51leadership in the company represents the consumers that we are serving.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57P&G made some fundamental changes in a bid
0:17:57 > 0:17:59to halt the exodus of its women.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01All staff were trained in how to appreciate
0:18:01 > 0:18:07the difference between masculine and feminine styles of behaviour,
0:18:07 > 0:18:11and it was made clear that staff could opt to work flexibly
0:18:11 > 0:18:13and still climb the corporate ladder.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17What interests me is from the commercial perspective,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20how does the company cover that?
0:18:20 > 0:18:23If we have reduced work schedules, sometimes we'll need,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26instead of eight people in a team, we might need ten people
0:18:26 > 0:18:29if there's lots of people on reduced work schedules.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32And is that a cost to the business?
0:18:32 > 0:18:35We don't believe it is a cost overall
0:18:35 > 0:18:38because of the benefit of retaining the top talent that we have.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Is that you saying you don't believe there's a cost overall
0:18:41 > 0:18:43or is that the accountants of the business
0:18:43 > 0:18:45- saying there is a cost to this? - It's a good question.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49- Cos that's what interests me. - Yes, it really is the total company,
0:18:49 > 0:18:51right from the top, our CEO in the States.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54And also, if you think about the ten years of training it takes
0:18:54 > 0:18:56to get somebody to senior management level,
0:18:56 > 0:18:58- that costs an awful lot of money. - Oh, God, yeah.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00So it actually costs us a lot more
0:19:00 > 0:19:03if we're losing this fantastic talent than if we're retaining it.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09Hilary's seen how much P&G benefited by retaining its women,
0:19:09 > 0:19:13saving on recruitment costs and boosting sales.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15Now she wants to find out
0:19:15 > 0:19:18if the advantages of mixed teams can be replicated in other businesses.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21She's called on Dr Judith Baxter,
0:19:21 > 0:19:27one of the country's foremost experts in gender and linguistics in the workplace.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30Today, Dr Baxter's conducting a new experiment
0:19:30 > 0:19:33to investigate why mixed teams perform better,
0:19:33 > 0:19:37and she's hoping to show why many women find it difficult
0:19:37 > 0:19:40to succeed in a male-dominated environment.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43The aim of the experiment today is to look at language,
0:19:43 > 0:19:46the way that people speak and interact
0:19:46 > 0:19:49and to ask whether it is perhaps one very important reason
0:19:49 > 0:19:54why women are still failing to make it to the top.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58Three teams - the first all men, the second all women,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01and the third with an even gender mix,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04have been told they're taking part in a competitive task.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07They will be asked to do the same task,
0:20:07 > 0:20:10to build a paper tower.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14The teams have been told their towers will be judged on height and appearance,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17and they need to be strong enough to support a glass.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22Your time for planning this exercise begins now.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28Strongest is probably like a tripod, but we haven't got very big paper.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31Strongest way to do it is generally to roll it.
0:20:31 > 0:20:32There was a clear leader
0:20:32 > 0:20:35and that leader took the initiative from the start,
0:20:35 > 0:20:39and actually came up with the right design.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41If we put three pieces around, which would save us a bit of time.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45We're seeing a fairly hierarchical organisation, typical of male teams.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49Notice all four on the right-hand side of the table
0:20:49 > 0:20:52are actually looking to Andrew for his approval.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55It's like a house of cards, you can work up a triangle like a pyramid.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59You can add these where there's just paper there, other cylinders...
0:20:59 > 0:21:03There's an element of competitiveness now
0:21:03 > 0:21:07- between Nigel and Andrew.- What's going to happen with that though
0:21:07 > 0:21:10is the pressure is in the centre, so they'll collapse in on each other.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Typical of male interaction here is the fact that they're now
0:21:13 > 0:21:17competing over who has the best design.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20It doesn't actually necessarily have to be progressively stable.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Rather than debate alternative ideas,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25the men fall in behind Nigel as their new leader
0:21:25 > 0:21:27and adopt his unstable design.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29- Please start.- Over to the women.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32- Has anybody done this task before? - I've got an idea, I've got an idea.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36If you've got a better idea, I'm happy for you to contribute.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40Interestingly in the girls' team, a leader does emerge straight away,
0:21:40 > 0:21:43but what Agata does is she says,
0:21:43 > 0:21:44"If you're happy to go along with this,"
0:21:44 > 0:21:49which suggests that she's trying to invite other members of the team to share her idea.
0:21:49 > 0:21:54Women very often use a rather more cautious type of language.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58I call it double voice discourse. What it conveys to their colleagues
0:21:58 > 0:22:02is that they are less confident about their viewpoints
0:22:02 > 0:22:05and possibly less decisive.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10Right now, Nicola chips in,
0:22:10 > 0:22:13who's actually had to cut across what Agata was saying.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16That was the only way that she could get her voice heard.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I've seen this done as well before, where you make it up like a pylon.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22Nicola puts forward the best solution
0:22:22 > 0:22:24but her team mates carry on brainstorming.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27You've got a square base...
0:22:27 > 0:22:29Agata and Sharena are talking over her
0:22:29 > 0:22:33so in order for Nicola to be heard she has to continue talking.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35So she has to make a judgement call -
0:22:35 > 0:22:39is it more important that I get the right idea across
0:22:39 > 0:22:43or is it more important that I feel involved, one of the team?
0:22:43 > 0:22:47Women tend to be much more egalitarian in the way they communicate -
0:22:47 > 0:22:51all of them want an equal say, all of them want to be included.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53Right, OK.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56Finally, it's the mixed team.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02Immediately in this group there's a different atmosphere
0:23:02 > 0:23:04from the men's group and the women's group.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07There's a lot of laughter, jokes, almost flirtatious.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11You can sense the opposite gender dynamic is kicking in here.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13In terms of the platform, how are we building...
0:23:13 > 0:23:16So we have the cylinders...
0:23:16 > 0:23:19What you're seeing is a lack of competition.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21It seems as if the best is being brought out
0:23:21 > 0:23:25of both men and women in this exercise.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29- Time for the build. - You have 15 minutes.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32Go, go, go, guys!
0:23:39 > 0:23:41The mixed group keeps smiling.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46The women's team continue to all pitch in with ideas.
0:23:46 > 0:23:51The men keep issuing instructions.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55The women's tower is structurally sound but rather short.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58The men have gone for size
0:23:58 > 0:24:03at the expense of stability.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07The mixed team are clear winners.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11It's just exactly what a team should do. Beautiful.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15As well as showing the advantages of the gender-balanced team,
0:24:15 > 0:24:17the experiment reveals why a woman may struggle
0:24:17 > 0:24:20to make her mark in a male-dominated workplace.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25By learning how men operate in a male team,
0:24:25 > 0:24:27women operate in a female team,
0:24:27 > 0:24:31we learn about what the norms of interaction are.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35And that might help us to explain why women find it difficult
0:24:35 > 0:24:38to go into a men's team when the norms of interaction,
0:24:38 > 0:24:42the way that people engage with each other, is so very different.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45Back at her London flat, Hilary is reflecting
0:24:45 > 0:24:50on what she's learned about the business benefits of mixed teams,
0:24:50 > 0:24:54and she's convinced that Procter & Gamble was right
0:24:54 > 0:24:59to transform its male-dominated corporate culture.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02I felt that they did recognise a problem.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07They did find a solution and they actually made that solution stick
0:25:07 > 0:25:11and I've no doubt that will go from strength to strength
0:25:11 > 0:25:15because it's now engendered within their company's ethos and culture.
0:25:15 > 0:25:20Having said that, they have 6,000 employees in the UK to play with.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22They've also a lot of money.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Hilary is yet to be persuaded that the same kind of solution
0:25:28 > 0:25:32could be made to work in Britain's small to medium-sized enterprises.
0:25:32 > 0:25:37In SMEs, cost matters, human resource matters,
0:25:37 > 0:25:40because you have to sweat your assets
0:25:40 > 0:25:43and your assets isn't just your operating equipment,
0:25:43 > 0:25:46it's your human resource.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55Hilary suspects that for many SMEs,
0:25:55 > 0:25:59the costs of boosting the number of female employees in key roles might
0:25:59 > 0:26:05outweigh the benefits. This could be damaging women's career prospects.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07She's going to talk to someone who runs
0:26:07 > 0:26:11one of Britain's 4.5 million smaller companies to find out more.
0:26:15 > 0:26:20Kathy Tilbury is MD of a Bournemouth-based coach company with 75 employees.
0:26:22 > 0:26:24- Hi, Kathy.- Hi, Hilary. Nice to meet you.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26Nice to meet you as well.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29Would you like to come get on board the coach with us?
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Most of Kathy's coach drivers are men,
0:26:34 > 0:26:37but back at the office, her team is 30% women.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41Do you think to small businesses, say, like your own business,
0:26:41 > 0:26:46it's detrimental to employ females of childbearing age
0:26:46 > 0:26:51who possibly will want children very soon?
0:26:51 > 0:26:54I think you have to be very careful how you answer that.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58I've just completed two years as President of the Chamber of Commerce in Dorset,
0:26:58 > 0:27:01and I'm well aware of businesses that have to think twice
0:27:01 > 0:27:03about recruiting women of childbearing age.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06You don't have a choice because we could find ourselves
0:27:06 > 0:27:09in employment tribunal just through refusing an interview
0:27:09 > 0:27:13of someone who tells us that they're pregnant. So we have to.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17We have a policy within our business of right person, right job.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21but you have to think about the impact on the business,
0:27:21 > 0:27:24not just financially but in the day-to-day operation
0:27:24 > 0:27:26when you recruit people.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32Kathy's right-hand woman, sales and marketing manager Louise,
0:27:32 > 0:27:36is one of the 400,000 women taking maternity leave this year.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41Kathy will be able to claim back 92% of Louise's maternity pay
0:27:41 > 0:27:44but she's been totting up the other costs.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46We've had to look at recruiting somebody,
0:27:46 > 0:27:50so there's about a cost of about £1,000 in terms of the advert,
0:27:50 > 0:27:53the interview processes.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57There's then a week's induction and training,
0:27:57 > 0:27:58so that's another £650.
0:27:58 > 0:28:02There's obviously some additional office equipment
0:28:02 > 0:28:06that we need to provide, that's in the region of another £1,000.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08When the maternity leave finishes,
0:28:08 > 0:28:11there's potentially 21 days holiday to take
0:28:11 > 0:28:15so that all comes at a cost to the business.
0:28:15 > 0:28:19I reckon our sales and marketing manager going off pregnant,
0:28:19 > 0:28:23although we get 92% back, it's still going to have a hit
0:28:23 > 0:28:26- of about eight to ten grand on my bottom line.- Yeah.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32Kathy's looking forward to her manager returning to work part-time
0:28:32 > 0:28:36after her maternity leave, but she's not the only employer
0:28:36 > 0:28:39who's frank about the impact of maternity rights.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42As the former boss of Marks & Spencer,
0:28:42 > 0:28:46Sir Stuart Rose used to be in charge of 76,000 employees,
0:28:46 > 0:28:48more than half of them women.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51It was just as much of a problem for me
0:28:51 > 0:28:52when I was running a big business
0:28:52 > 0:28:55for somebody in a key role to go off on maternity leave
0:28:55 > 0:28:58as it is for somebody in a smaller business although I accept
0:28:58 > 0:29:01that it could be quite mission critical in a small business,
0:29:01 > 0:29:03where in a big business it's just a damned nuisance.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06Let's not shilly shally about, I know small businesses
0:29:06 > 0:29:09who therefore in their recruitment process would shy away
0:29:09 > 0:29:12from employing somebody who might get pregnant.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17The issue of maternity leave is impacting greatly
0:29:17 > 0:29:19on our female talent,
0:29:19 > 0:29:23but it's also impacting greatly on our commercial world.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27You can't get away from the fact that a couple of pregnancies
0:29:27 > 0:29:30in a small business could bring about its demise.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34Hilary knows that illegal discrimination is an issue,
0:29:34 > 0:29:37but in her experience, there's another important factor
0:29:37 > 0:29:40contributing to the lack of women in jobs at top level.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44Not enough are coming forward to apply for those roles in the first place.
0:29:44 > 0:29:48Throughout her own career, Hilary has never found ads
0:29:48 > 0:29:51for high-flying jobs a daunting prospect.
0:29:51 > 0:29:55"A critical and high-profile role," I think I'm perfect for that.
0:29:55 > 0:29:58"A key member of the global finance team."
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Well, really, I'd want to run the finance team anyway.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05"With experience of reporting to external shareholders."
0:30:05 > 0:30:07I could do that. "The role will lead the business
0:30:07 > 0:30:11"through a period of expansion and transformation
0:30:11 > 0:30:14"while ensuring operational excellence." I could do that.
0:30:14 > 0:30:20"The role also includes building a highly capable and motivated team."
0:30:20 > 0:30:24Fine. There's nothing in there that would prevent me, as a woman,
0:30:24 > 0:30:26applying for that role.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31But Hilary's confidence is far from typical.
0:30:31 > 0:30:35Psychologist Binna Kandola has analysed the ways
0:30:35 > 0:30:38in which job ads may be putting a lot of women off
0:30:38 > 0:30:41before they've even got a foot in the door.
0:30:41 > 0:30:45There's an advertisement here, looking for non-executive members
0:30:45 > 0:30:48of the board. They're looking for exceptional individuals.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52Now, language like that is more likely to attract a man
0:30:52 > 0:30:54and is more likely to put off a woman.
0:30:54 > 0:30:57A woman is likely to be thinking, "Am I genuinely exceptional?
0:30:57 > 0:31:01"I know I'm good, I might even be very good, but exceptional?
0:31:01 > 0:31:02"Oh, I'm not so sure."
0:31:02 > 0:31:05So that's more likely to put a female off.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07It talks about somebody who has gravitas
0:31:07 > 0:31:09to influence board members.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12Now, if you ask people if gravitas is a male word,
0:31:12 > 0:31:16a female word or a neutral word, a lot of people will say neutral
0:31:16 > 0:31:20and a lot of people also will say male. It conjures up a man.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23But nobody will ever say it only conjures up a woman.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26So a word like that is not only communicating to the candidates,
0:31:26 > 0:31:28unfortunately it's also communicating something
0:31:28 > 0:31:31to the people who are going to be doing the selection.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35It's going to be biasing them towards a male candidate.
0:31:35 > 0:31:40I can't for the life of me comprehend why women
0:31:40 > 0:31:45will be deterred from applying
0:31:45 > 0:31:49for employment positions, top senior roles,
0:31:49 > 0:31:52because of a word in an advertisement.
0:31:52 > 0:31:56That just goes beyond my comprehension.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01Binna's invited a recruitment agency head, Sue Rees,
0:32:01 > 0:32:05and three of the professional women on her books,
0:32:05 > 0:32:08to look at a pair of ads for a chief financial officer role
0:32:08 > 0:32:13and decide which one they think they'd be most likely to succeed in.
0:32:13 > 0:32:18The experiment here is presenting the same job in two different ways.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21One using very stereotypically male language,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24the other one avoiding
0:32:24 > 0:32:27some of the particularly male biased language.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Orange Star Corporation's role is a demanding one,
0:32:30 > 0:32:33requiring relentless focus.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36It's looking for an outstanding leader.
0:32:37 > 0:32:42Purple Star wants someone who can make a significant contribution
0:32:42 > 0:32:44and engage with people at all levels.
0:32:44 > 0:32:49The Purple Star was much about more creating culture,
0:32:49 > 0:32:53and about you being able to make a significant contribution.
0:32:53 > 0:32:57That is what I would look for when going for a job.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02I think I prefer the Purple Star Corporation.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04It just seems to me as though
0:33:04 > 0:33:08it would fit into my life more than the Orange Star.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10Well, I think they're both interesting roles.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13They're both in a fast-moving, growing business,
0:33:13 > 0:33:15which is something I'm really keen to work in.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18But I am very career focused, so I would be looking at the role
0:33:18 > 0:33:20that would be the most demanding
0:33:20 > 0:33:24and that will further my career the most.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29The ad with softer language appeals to all three candidates.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33Only the youngest thinks she'd be suitable
0:33:33 > 0:33:35for the more masculine sounding job.
0:33:36 > 0:33:39And as well as limiting the pool of candidates,
0:33:39 > 0:33:42the wording could affect recruiters too.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46The language starts to orient us towards what we're looking for.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48This type of language
0:33:48 > 0:33:52is stereotypically more associated with a man,
0:33:52 > 0:33:55and selectors will be therefore more inclined to select a man
0:33:55 > 0:34:00and less likely to see those qualities in any female candidates.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07And it's not just unconscious bias in the choice of words
0:34:07 > 0:34:09that can reduce the pool of applicants.
0:34:09 > 0:34:13Kate Grussing is a professional head-hunter
0:34:13 > 0:34:17who specialises in identifying female candidates for senior jobs.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21She's worked with companies including John Lewis,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23Lloyds TSB and IBM.
0:34:23 > 0:34:26Kate frequently sees women eliminating themselves
0:34:26 > 0:34:28from the recruitment process.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31When we approach a woman about a job,
0:34:31 > 0:34:34she will often tell me why she thinks
0:34:34 > 0:34:37she's not suitable for job.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40what the two out of 25 bullet points are
0:34:40 > 0:34:44that she hasn't been able to demonstrate in her background.
0:34:44 > 0:34:49Men will never point out the reasons why they're not suitable for a job.
0:34:49 > 0:34:53They will say why they are a perfect fit
0:34:53 > 0:34:56on the 15 of the 25 bullet points in that job description.
0:34:56 > 0:35:01I think women are often every bit as ambitious, they just don't wear it
0:35:01 > 0:35:04on their sleeve the way their male peers will.
0:35:04 > 0:35:09Addressing the issue of confidence will be one of Hilary's priorities
0:35:09 > 0:35:12when she sets out to find a range of solutions
0:35:12 > 0:35:15that can help more women prosper in business.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23For now, having looked at what prevents women
0:35:23 > 0:35:26from getting into key roles, Hilary wants to get to grips
0:35:26 > 0:35:29with what's stopping them from staying in their jobs
0:35:29 > 0:35:30and rising through the ranks.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34OK, all right. You take care. Bye-bye.
0:35:34 > 0:35:36From her own experience,
0:35:36 > 0:35:39she has no doubt that the biggest challenge of all is motherhood.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44Mevlit.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47Tiny, tiny baby.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50He was probably about two weeks there
0:35:50 > 0:35:52It was probably a week after that
0:35:52 > 0:35:56when I had to return to work.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58It was kind of spelled out to me
0:35:58 > 0:36:01that if I didn't get back out into work quickly,
0:36:01 > 0:36:03there wouldn't be a job there for me.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05Every morning, Hilary drove 70 miles
0:36:05 > 0:36:09to take Mevlit to be looked after by his grandparents,
0:36:09 > 0:36:12before heading in to London for a full day's work.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15The sacrifice is not seeing your child's first step,
0:36:15 > 0:36:19not hearing his first word,
0:36:19 > 0:36:21not being there when he's poorly,
0:36:21 > 0:36:26because you've got to be at work or at the other end of the country.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28After I'd split with Mev's father,
0:36:28 > 0:36:32I didn't even go out with another man for 12 years.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36All I did was work, take care of him and keep a home.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43In Britain today, two thirds of mothers work at least part-time.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47But many find the challenge of juggling work and family commitments
0:36:47 > 0:36:50affects their confidence and their career progression.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Paula Leach has several hours of planning and organizing to do
0:36:54 > 0:36:57each morning, before she's even left the house.
0:36:57 > 0:37:02Husband Martin is nearly always first to set off.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06When you're both working in professional jobs...
0:37:06 > 0:37:08He works five days a week,
0:37:08 > 0:37:10and actually has an hour and a quarter commute.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13So it makes it tough.
0:37:13 > 0:37:15Do you want to have a look at this, Natasha?
0:37:15 > 0:37:17I saw it in your school bag.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21On the side here, this time capsule. Can you tell me about it?
0:37:21 > 0:37:25- We need to write some things that we all draw.- Things you'd put in it?
0:37:25 > 0:37:27What have you been told about it?
0:37:27 > 0:37:30We talked about ideas.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32It's all the practicalities of the washing
0:37:32 > 0:37:36and sorting all that out, but it's also all the organizing
0:37:36 > 0:37:39of the children's lives and what's happening.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43Like this time capsule thing, or what's happening at school.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46Have they got a dress-up day or a party?
0:37:46 > 0:37:47All of that I do.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50You're taking Natasha's bag? That's kind of you.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55Paula works part-time managing Learning and Development
0:37:55 > 0:37:57at Ford in Essex.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59We're doing OK for time.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03Normally I would try and leave the house by eight.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07Before I had children, I was never late for anything.
0:38:07 > 0:38:11Since I've had children, sometimes I really feel I'm up against it
0:38:11 > 0:38:14in terms of trying to fit everything in and then make it
0:38:14 > 0:38:17to meetings and not let people down.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23After her first daughter Natasha was born,
0:38:23 > 0:38:26Paula returned to work four days a week
0:38:26 > 0:38:28in a demanding operational role.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31It was a tough time for her.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33I remember leaving the office
0:38:33 > 0:38:36and going to do the pick-up from nursery
0:38:36 > 0:38:39and I'd be the first one to leave the office.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41I think as the manager of the department,
0:38:41 > 0:38:44you feel that you shouldn't be
0:38:44 > 0:38:46the first one leaving the office.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50It didn't matter that then maybe I might work
0:38:50 > 0:38:52three hours later on that evening
0:38:52 > 0:38:56to kind of catch up on everything that was going on.
0:38:56 > 0:38:57I still felt that.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03Paula's worked at Ford since she graduated.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06She hadn't expected it to be so difficult for her
0:39:06 > 0:39:09to reconcile her responsibilities at work and at home.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12I would never have believed that
0:39:12 > 0:39:14I would have a dip in confidence.
0:39:14 > 0:39:19There's that whole other job that you're learning to do,
0:39:19 > 0:39:24being mum, and sometimes you sit in a meeting
0:39:24 > 0:39:27and you sit there thinking, "Gosh, should I be here?"
0:39:27 > 0:39:29I don't think that now, but I have felt like that.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32After having her second daughter,
0:39:32 > 0:39:35Paula decided something would have to give.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37I just thought I've got a choice point here
0:39:37 > 0:39:40about what I do with my life.
0:39:42 > 0:39:45But work's important to me and I've worked so hard
0:39:45 > 0:39:48to get to where I am, it would be a shame
0:39:48 > 0:39:52to get all of that experience behind you and then to kind of step out.
0:39:52 > 0:39:56Paula decided to cut down to three and a half days a week
0:39:56 > 0:39:57and she moved into a role
0:39:57 > 0:40:01in which she would be in control of her own schedule.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04She's much happier with her work-life balance,
0:40:04 > 0:40:08but the rapid progression she was making up the career ladder
0:40:08 > 0:40:10before having children, has slowed down, at least for now.
0:40:10 > 0:40:15You never know what the situation would be if you hadn't had children.
0:40:15 > 0:40:19Having said that, I haven't particularly progressed,
0:40:19 > 0:40:22I would say, through the organization.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25You know, I'm a mum
0:40:25 > 0:40:28and I want to be around.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32Paula's found an arrangement which suits her
0:40:32 > 0:40:33and her long-term employer.
0:40:33 > 0:40:37But for many, achieving a satisfying work-life balance
0:40:37 > 0:40:41means they compromise on seniority and pay.
0:40:41 > 0:40:43More than four in ten mothers with degrees
0:40:43 > 0:40:47say they have taken a job for which they're overqualified in order
0:40:47 > 0:40:50to secure a part-time working arrangement.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56When Hilary starts to look for solutions,
0:40:56 > 0:41:00the thorny issues faced by working parents will be crucial.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03But she'll also be thinking about the 2.2 million women
0:41:03 > 0:41:05who are full time mums.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09I would like to go out
0:41:09 > 0:41:12and meet a woman who has made that choice to stay at home
0:41:12 > 0:41:16and care for those children instead of returning to work.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Clare Hill certainly never planned
0:41:23 > 0:41:25on being a stay at home parent.
0:41:25 > 0:41:29She gave up the job she loved after having her first son.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Six years later, she's still at home
0:41:31 > 0:41:33in Derby with her two boys.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36Show me your poorly hand?
0:41:36 > 0:41:40Clare used to be a trainer and assessor of nursery managers
0:41:40 > 0:41:43before she choose to step away from her flourishing career.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46Look, he's loving it! You little monkey.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49Was it kind of a financial decision
0:41:49 > 0:41:54or was it a work-life balance or a family-life balance decision?
0:41:54 > 0:41:56It was a good mix, actually.
0:41:56 > 0:41:59Initially, it was an emotional one,
0:41:59 > 0:42:03I just kind of decided it wasn't a good time for me to go back.
0:42:03 > 0:42:06I wanted to spend more time with my son.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08Another part of it was the financial side,
0:42:08 > 0:42:10just due to the fact I had to pay
0:42:10 > 0:42:13a good £185 a week on childcare fees.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15£185 a week?
0:42:15 > 0:42:17Yes, which meant a big chunk of my wages would go
0:42:17 > 0:42:21straight out on the childcare fees,
0:42:21 > 0:42:23so I had to weigh up
0:42:23 > 0:42:26what I was going to do and the career had to go.
0:42:28 > 0:42:29The UK's childcare costs
0:42:29 > 0:42:31are among the highest in the world,
0:42:31 > 0:42:34with fees for a two-year-old in daycare
0:42:34 > 0:42:36costing a third of the average net
0:42:36 > 0:42:38income of two working parents.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42I do love my life, but I do also miss going to work
0:42:42 > 0:42:45and having my own income to support the family.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48I'm looking at possibly setting up my own little business
0:42:48 > 0:42:50where I can fit into time around the children.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52Do you see yourself in the future
0:42:52 > 0:42:54getting back on the corporate ladder?
0:42:54 > 0:42:56I'm itching to go back.
0:42:56 > 0:43:01It's just the whole childcare fee thing versus your wages.
0:43:01 > 0:43:03It just doesn't add up.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06You're going to say bye-bye to me? Can I have a kiss?
0:43:06 > 0:43:09Hilary is surer than ever that motherhood is the biggest challenge
0:43:09 > 0:43:12preventing many women from progressing in business.
0:43:12 > 0:43:17She's seen how the dilemmas posed by maternity leave, childcare,
0:43:17 > 0:43:21and part-time work create a clash of emotional, financial
0:43:21 > 0:43:25and practical factors for women and for business.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29This is a really big contributor to women leaving the workplace
0:43:29 > 0:43:32and disappearing from the pyramid
0:43:32 > 0:43:35that we saw at the University College of London.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38Females go into the commercial world
0:43:38 > 0:43:42and it takes them several years to be recognized as a shining star.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45They get to 28 and all of a sudden, they've got somebody saying
0:43:45 > 0:43:49"Ooh, board material here. Real senior management.
0:43:49 > 0:43:51"She can really do this."
0:43:51 > 0:43:56What then happens, is the biological clock starts to tick
0:43:56 > 0:44:00and it's a sad fact of life that she then leaves to have a child
0:44:00 > 0:44:05and all too often that female talent, that female skill set,
0:44:05 > 0:44:08that shining star is just written off.
0:44:10 > 0:44:13Convinced that balancing motherhood and work
0:44:13 > 0:44:16is critical for women and their employers,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18Hilary's off to see the boss of a large company
0:44:18 > 0:44:22with plenty of women in management and on the factory floor,
0:44:22 > 0:44:26but only one woman on the board of six directors.
0:44:26 > 0:44:31McBride is Europe's biggest manufacturer of retailers' own-brand
0:44:31 > 0:44:35household and personal care products.
0:44:35 > 0:44:392.5 billion dishwasher tablets and 100 million bottles of bleach
0:44:39 > 0:44:42pour out of its factories each year,
0:44:42 > 0:44:44to be purchased mostly by women.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49CEO Chris Bull is confident it's merely a matter of time
0:44:49 > 0:44:53until he has more women in his top team.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Hilary believes things are more complicated.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01In your opinion, are there enough women
0:45:01 > 0:45:04with the right skill sets and experience
0:45:04 > 0:45:06- to fulfil these top roles? - Not today, no.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09I think that's a real issue
0:45:09 > 0:45:12in terms of the availability today.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15I think the pipeline is filling up, and therefore I think, over time,
0:45:15 > 0:45:17the situation's going to get much better.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19But today, there's certainly a scarcity.
0:45:19 > 0:45:22Is it not a case of you can take a horse to water,
0:45:22 > 0:45:24but you can't make it drink?
0:45:24 > 0:45:27Could it not be a case of, you know, we need to women
0:45:27 > 0:45:31to have children anyway to safeguard our future generation,
0:45:31 > 0:45:35therefore a company's got to find
0:45:35 > 0:45:37a way around managing that?
0:45:37 > 0:45:39I think companies certainly need
0:45:39 > 0:45:43to find their way around managing career breaks. Yes, absolutely.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46But equally, somebody still has to care for the home
0:45:46 > 0:45:48and care for the child.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51Yes, or share the caring as well.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54That can be a better route, I think.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57How can the role be shared, Chris?
0:45:57 > 0:45:59How would it appear when you're burning the midnight oil,
0:45:59 > 0:46:01as we've all done round the board table,
0:46:01 > 0:46:04trying to find a solution to a problem,
0:46:04 > 0:46:05discuss a new product strategy,
0:46:05 > 0:46:08what's the profitability of that,
0:46:08 > 0:46:11and all of a sudden Chris jumps up
0:46:11 > 0:46:15"I've got to go, lads. It's parents' evening."
0:46:17 > 0:46:20You're right. That's a real challenge.
0:46:20 > 0:46:22But it's not about being completely black and white.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26If you create a more kind of rounded approach
0:46:26 > 0:46:27that both males and females
0:46:27 > 0:46:31have a responsibility for the family, just as I have...
0:46:31 > 0:46:34But you would not leave your board room meeting
0:46:34 > 0:46:37to go to a parents' evening,
0:46:37 > 0:46:40because you would expect your wife to do that.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43I would plan my boardroom meeting round the parents' meeting.
0:46:43 > 0:46:45I still go to parents' meetings, I just plan ahead.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48There's not a crisis every day in business.
0:46:48 > 0:46:50No, no. That is agreed, there isn't.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53But I still think that you've got probably 99%
0:46:53 > 0:46:56of what you need at home
0:46:56 > 0:46:59to enable you to do your job.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04The encounter has spurred Hilary on to dig deeper into the issues.
0:47:04 > 0:47:08I was pretty robust with Chris Bull,
0:47:08 > 0:47:11but actually I've got a similar problem to face
0:47:11 > 0:47:12with my own business.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Now Hilary's seen some of the obstacles
0:47:16 > 0:47:19holding women back in large and small companies,
0:47:19 > 0:47:21she's decided it's time to find out
0:47:21 > 0:47:26whether her own business is making the most of female talent.
0:47:29 > 0:47:31Hilary's called in a management consultant
0:47:31 > 0:47:33who specialises in gender diversity.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36Avivah Wittenberg-Cox spends most of her time
0:47:36 > 0:47:41advising global companies like Nestle, Nissan and Shell
0:47:41 > 0:47:44on the business benefits of increasing diversity.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48Hilary's asked us to do a gender audit of her company,
0:47:48 > 0:47:51so we'll take a look at qualitatively and quantitavely
0:47:51 > 0:47:54what kind of culture and company she's created,
0:47:54 > 0:47:57how gender balanced it is at every level.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01Does she have a gender balanced team around her
0:48:01 > 0:48:02or is she a queen bee?
0:48:02 > 0:48:06Is she ruling the roost in a male dominated industry
0:48:06 > 0:48:10using her erotic capital to make a difference?
0:48:11 > 0:48:14It's safe to say this is the first time
0:48:14 > 0:48:16anyone's come to the Pall-Ex transhipment hub
0:48:16 > 0:48:19to discuss erotic capital.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22- Hello.- Hi, Avivah. it's Hilary Devey.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24Have you just arrived at Pall-Ex?
0:48:24 > 0:48:28I have indeed and I've just been admiring your lovely entrance.
0:48:28 > 0:48:29Gorgeous red walls.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31You've got the run of the place,
0:48:31 > 0:48:34so please talk to as many people as you wish.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37I'm looking forward to hearing what they all have to say
0:48:37 > 0:48:38and what female leadership does.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40I can't wait. Talk to you later, bye-bye.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47The gender audit starts in the warehouse,
0:48:47 > 0:48:51where Operations Director Fraser McNeill
0:48:51 > 0:48:54oversees 9,000 pallets of freight on the move each day.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57Transport's something that's in your blood.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00You either like it or you don't and you find out very quickly.
0:49:00 > 0:49:02It's a tough industry. You've got to be prepared
0:49:02 > 0:49:04to put some self sacrifice in there.
0:49:04 > 0:49:09Most of the staff here are driving around and moving pallets all day.
0:49:09 > 0:49:12what's the gender balance on all these drivers?
0:49:12 > 0:49:16The gender balance in the company is I think three to one.
0:49:16 > 0:49:20- The gender balance out here is very, very low.- Yeah?
0:49:20 > 0:49:23- No ladies driving these things?- Very blue collar.
0:49:23 > 0:49:28There's no ladies driving forklifts. We do have some lady truck drivers.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30So you don't see any need or advantage
0:49:30 > 0:49:34to having more gender balance in a work environment like this?
0:49:34 > 0:49:37Would that be something you would ever think of as useful?
0:49:37 > 0:49:40I think in terms of forklift drivers, I don't suppose it matters
0:49:40 > 0:49:43which gender, which race, which colour.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46A good forklift driver's a good forklift driver.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48They're like gold dust. We need them here.
0:49:48 > 0:49:53Turning to the upper echelons of the company,
0:49:53 > 0:49:58next to be grilled is Hilary's managing director, Adrian Russell.
0:49:58 > 0:50:02Did you see any advantage to her being a woman in this sector?
0:50:02 > 0:50:03- Absolutely.- Yeah.- Absolutely.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06She can get away with things
0:50:06 > 0:50:10- because she's a woman...- Yeah. - ..that a man couldn't.
0:50:10 > 0:50:16Adrian reports that the warehouse staff is 98% male,
0:50:16 > 0:50:20management is almost 50/50 male-to-female.
0:50:20 > 0:50:26At top level, Hilary is the sole woman on the board of ten directors.
0:50:26 > 0:50:30- A pretty male-dominated leadership team.- Yeah.- Why, do you think?
0:50:30 > 0:50:36I think it's about presentation, in as much as...
0:50:36 > 0:50:39people who present themselves for interview.
0:50:39 > 0:50:45Do you see any business reason to want to know the gender balance
0:50:45 > 0:50:47of these teams?
0:50:47 > 0:50:52I'm interested in anything that could improve the performance of this business,
0:50:52 > 0:50:54- it's as simple as that.- OK.
0:50:54 > 0:50:58Very interesting. Obviously somebody who's never thought about this topic
0:50:58 > 0:51:03for a day in his entire career. That's pretty typical of what we find of many male leaders
0:51:03 > 0:51:05when you first introduce the topic.
0:51:05 > 0:51:10Unusual in that he also admits that Hilary's sex was a huge competitive advantage
0:51:10 > 0:51:11in this business.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16Next, Avivah is going to get the low-down on gender
0:51:16 > 0:51:20in the marketing department, which is run by a woman,
0:51:20 > 0:51:22Hilary's protegee, Holly.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24Everything's quite new and exciting for this year,
0:51:24 > 0:51:28so everything's in development stage. This is our latest retail campaign.
0:51:28 > 0:51:31We specifically decided to target the retail industry.
0:51:31 > 0:51:35Do you have any images of what your competition looks like in their advertising?
0:51:35 > 0:51:38- These are two of our competitors. - Everybody's pictured trucks!
0:51:38 > 0:51:42Yeah, that is something, as you can see from our campaign, that we're starting
0:51:42 > 0:51:45- to move away from. - Absolutely. It's a whole new look.
0:51:45 > 0:51:47Retail's a whole different industry.
0:51:47 > 0:51:49They're not interested to see a picture of a truck.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53- So has gender ever entered the conversation?- It hasn't, no.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56- No.- Cos it's not something we actually have considered.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00The marketing team may not have designed their new campaign
0:52:00 > 0:52:04with women in mind, but Avivah's impressed by how it could appeal
0:52:04 > 0:52:07to women as well as men.
0:52:07 > 0:52:11It's always interesting to see how gender bilingual marketing can be,
0:52:11 > 0:52:16what kind of vocabulary and imagery does it bring in, does it speak to both men and women?
0:52:16 > 0:52:20Is Pall-Ex doing that because it's run by a woman? Well, one can ask the question.
0:52:22 > 0:52:26Next to be audited is Helen, in Human Resources.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29Any desire or attempt to attract more women,
0:52:29 > 0:52:35- any thinking on that?- We did recruit a female, a forklift truck driver.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38- But she left. - What did she say when she left?
0:52:38 > 0:52:40- It was too crazy for her?- Yeah, it was. She just couldn't handle
0:52:40 > 0:52:43the pace of moving the pallets and everything like that.
0:52:43 > 0:52:45So it's not for want of trying.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48but they're just not out there. Even when you go to agencies
0:52:48 > 0:52:50and you ask them to look at their books,
0:52:50 > 0:52:54it's all male on their books, so, you know, it's very difficult.
0:52:54 > 0:52:55Do you feel any...
0:52:57 > 0:53:00..particular push from the CEO to gender balance
0:53:00 > 0:53:04- or not gender balance? - Um, no. No.- No? OK.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07- So no particular focus on the issue?- No.- Yeah.
0:53:08 > 0:53:13The audit process has started to move the issue up the agenda.
0:53:13 > 0:53:17It's has brought it home, I think, to do a bit of navel gazing.
0:53:17 > 0:53:21You know, in terms of, what do we do? What are our attitudes?
0:53:21 > 0:53:24We think we've got a good positive approach to it,
0:53:24 > 0:53:28but it's more unconscious than conscious here.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31I don't think we think, "Oh, we'll get a woman or get a man."
0:53:31 > 0:53:33It's the best person for the job.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36Having completed the gender audit,
0:53:36 > 0:53:40Avivah is wondering how Hilary will respond to her findings.
0:53:41 > 0:53:43Really the options today were,
0:53:43 > 0:53:48is Hilary Devey a fantastic authentic role model leader
0:53:48 > 0:53:49for other women?
0:53:49 > 0:53:52Or is she what we know as a queen bee,
0:53:52 > 0:53:55kind of the sole woman who loves to keep power
0:53:55 > 0:53:57in a male-dominated environment?
0:53:59 > 0:54:04For Hilary, hearing the results of the audit and taking a new look
0:54:04 > 0:54:07at the prospects of women inside her own company
0:54:07 > 0:54:12will conclude her investigation of the problems holding women back in business.
0:54:12 > 0:54:17If I look at your, you know, your pyramid of recruitment,
0:54:17 > 0:54:21the leadership team is male-dominated, you're at the top.
0:54:21 > 0:54:25And then a much more gender-balanced middle management group.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29And then you go down to the warehouse, and that's 98% men.
0:54:29 > 0:54:33And that's what a lot of companies look like today.
0:54:33 > 0:54:36I think because there, particularly in my own business,
0:54:36 > 0:54:38is a threat for women,
0:54:38 > 0:54:42in we have probably 700 articulated vehicles in and out
0:54:42 > 0:54:47in a 24-hour period from all over the continent, and they're all male.
0:54:47 > 0:54:52And I think to put a female manager or director on that work floor
0:54:52 > 0:54:55- is a risk.- In a lot of blue-collar environments,
0:54:55 > 0:54:59they do find that gender balance on shop floors
0:54:59 > 0:55:02reduces absenteeism, alcoholism.
0:55:02 > 0:55:07Listen, I would love to have a 50-50 gender balance there, there,
0:55:07 > 0:55:11there and there. I would love it.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13But you cannot find them.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16Then it's a question of how much do you want it
0:55:16 > 0:55:19and how consistently do you try? We were looking, for example,
0:55:19 > 0:55:23at some of the recruitment advertising in your company and for some of the jobs
0:55:23 > 0:55:26that we saw, one of the great competitive advantages
0:55:26 > 0:55:28- you would have in recruiting women...- Is that I'm a female.
0:55:28 > 0:55:31..is that you're a company led by a woman,
0:55:31 > 0:55:35and that wasn't mentioned in the ads, so that was my last point,
0:55:35 > 0:55:38that you as a leader, you have this very feminine side,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41you use it, you play it up, it's been a huge advantage.
0:55:41 > 0:55:45And then you have this very masculine side that you use
0:55:45 > 0:55:48whenever you feel like it, to slug them in the face
0:55:48 > 0:55:51and take them aback, which is, as we heard, you know,
0:55:51 > 0:55:53makes a lot of them knock-kneed
0:55:53 > 0:55:56- as they're going up to your office.- I didn't know that.
0:55:56 > 0:56:01Don't underestimate, it sounds to me in your sector, what your gender
0:56:01 > 0:56:04- has actually given to your company. - I mean, I know conclusively
0:56:04 > 0:56:09but for females, we definitely would not have the marketing that we have,
0:56:09 > 0:56:14we would not have the international portfolio that we have.
0:56:14 > 0:56:17- So they've brought huge benefit... - But for females, you would not have
0:56:17 > 0:56:20the entire business idea of your company that you have, so...
0:56:20 > 0:56:23Yeah. SHE LAUGHS
0:56:23 > 0:56:26So you would conclude, I think,
0:56:26 > 0:56:30that gender is actually a lever
0:56:30 > 0:56:34- to achieving business goals. That's it?- Yes.
0:56:35 > 0:56:39The results of the audit have struck Hilary deeply.
0:56:39 > 0:56:43She's starting to acknowledge how much her business success
0:56:43 > 0:56:46depends on having a gender mix.
0:56:46 > 0:56:50It was like a bolt of lightning after meeting with Avivah,
0:56:50 > 0:56:56because I then started to look at the profit-per-department,
0:56:56 > 0:57:01and what I actually discovered is that the most profitable department that we have
0:57:01 > 0:57:04has got a gender balance of 50:50.
0:57:04 > 0:57:08Mixed gender departments do produce more profit,
0:57:08 > 0:57:11it is absolutely fact.
0:57:11 > 0:57:16And although she used to think that it was down to individuals to create their own opportunities,
0:57:16 > 0:57:21- now she's having a change of heart. - When I started on this journey,
0:57:21 > 0:57:25I tended to think that if women really wanted it,
0:57:25 > 0:57:28why can't they go out and get it? Because I did.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32Hilary's going to have to find solutions to some of
0:57:32 > 0:57:38the problems she's encountered - the impact of maternity leave on women and employers,
0:57:38 > 0:57:40the challenge of juggling motherhood and work,
0:57:40 > 0:57:43and bias in the recruitment process.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45And she's pledged to make changes at her own company,
0:57:45 > 0:57:48for the good of the business and the women in it.
0:57:50 > 0:57:54There's no point me preaching unless I start redressing the balance
0:57:54 > 0:57:59in my own business, and that's what I intend to do.
0:58:01 > 0:58:04Next time, Hilary investigates some radical measures
0:58:04 > 0:58:07to get more women into business.
0:58:07 > 0:58:11If the quota legislation was not about feminism, what was it about?
0:58:11 > 0:58:15She asks what men can do to help keep women's careers on track.
0:58:15 > 0:58:19Once you're up in five, six, seven, eight months,
0:58:19 > 0:58:22you're the one in charge at home, and you get to make the decisions.
0:58:22 > 0:58:25And Hilary tackles the challenge inside her own company.
0:58:25 > 0:58:28The more I think about it, the better it'll be,
0:58:28 > 0:58:31because it's the perfect job for a woman.
0:58:31 > 0:58:35What are your chances of reaching the top of the career ladder?
0:58:35 > 0:58:38Compare your profile against other boardroom hopefuls
0:58:38 > 0:58:40with the Open University's interactive challenge.
0:58:40 > 0:58:43Go to bbc.co.uk/womenatthetop
0:58:43 > 0:58:46and follow the links to the Open University.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd