0:00:02 > 0:00:06This programme contains some strong language
0:00:06 > 0:00:10and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting
0:00:10 > 0:00:11Jimmy, what are you up to?
0:00:14 > 0:00:17'This footage is of a visit Jimmy Savile made
0:00:17 > 0:00:20'to my house in 2001.'
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Come and look at my exercise bike.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31We'd had a friendly relationship
0:00:31 > 0:00:34since making a documentary together the previous year.
0:00:34 > 0:00:35# Ho ho ho
0:00:35 > 0:00:37- # Ho ho ho - Ho ho ho
0:00:37 > 0:00:38# Ho ho ho... #
0:00:38 > 0:00:40One of my reasons for keeping in touch
0:00:40 > 0:00:44was that I thought there was a side to him I hadn't seen.
0:00:45 > 0:00:46All right, then.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49- Thanks for coming by. - OK. Good morning.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53And if you ever do need a place to crash in London,
0:00:53 > 0:00:54you've seen you've got a room upstairs.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58- I'm serious.- Thank you very much. I appreciated that.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00I'm just going to check out that it's safe out here.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03If I go out backwards, people will think I'm coming in.
0:01:05 > 0:01:06There.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12But I never found out the truth while he was alive.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17- Good to see you.- Good. - All right.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Jimmy! Jimmy! Jimmy!
0:01:40 > 0:01:43A report into how Jimmy Savile was able to abuse children
0:01:43 > 0:01:45while working for the BBC is due to be published.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48A leaked draft of Dame Janet Smith's report
0:01:48 > 0:01:52criticised a culture of untouchable stars at the corporation.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Our media correspondent David Sillitoe can give us the latest.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57David, what do we know so far?
0:02:02 > 0:02:09Well, this is the box in which I keep my Jimmy Savile material.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12So the background is I made this film... It's quite heavy.
0:02:12 > 0:02:17..in 2000. When Louis Met Jimmy, and spent several weeks
0:02:17 > 0:02:21over the course of a few months trying to get to know him.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27- How's it going? Nice to meet you. - How are you?
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Yeah, not too bad. How are you doing?
0:02:30 > 0:02:32You're better looking than me, you'll have to go.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34Anybody better looking than me, that's it.
0:02:34 > 0:02:35Step this way.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37- How are you feeling? - Regularly. How are you?
0:02:37 > 0:02:38Not too bad.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41Marvellous, I'm like a butcher's dog, as it happens,
0:02:41 > 0:02:44and there's nothing more fitter and stronger than a butcher's dog.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48- All the scraps, all the bones, all the hair. That's it.- Yeah.
0:03:09 > 0:03:1215 years after I first met him,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16and three years after the revelation of his vast offence history,
0:03:16 > 0:03:20I decided to speak to some of the people who'd known Jimmy Savile.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23His friends and his victims.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25I wanted to try to understand
0:03:25 > 0:03:29how he'd got away with his crimes for so long,
0:03:29 > 0:03:32to see what clues there were in hindsight
0:03:32 > 0:03:36'and make sense of my own failure to recognise him for what he was.'
0:03:36 > 0:03:37I've come to wake you up.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41That makes the searching documentaries of the world here...
0:03:52 > 0:03:56- Hello.- Get back. Don't mind him. - Is Kat available?
0:03:56 > 0:03:59- She is.- Shall we come in?- Yes.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02How are you doing? Nice to meet you.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10The first to speak out after he died had been an ex-pupil at Duncroft,
0:04:10 > 0:04:14a boarding school for troubled teenage girls.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Her name was Kat Ward.
0:04:18 > 0:04:24This is Duncroft, that was how Duncroft was.
0:04:24 > 0:04:30I was sent there because I was in care in Norfolk.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32And I kept running away.
0:04:32 > 0:04:37So can you remember the first time
0:04:37 > 0:04:39Jimmy Savile came to the school?
0:04:39 > 0:04:41There was a level of excitement, I suppose.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43- He was someone off the telly. - Oh, God, yes.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46We'd all get excited about it.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Well, we'd wonder what he's going to bring this time.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52Sometimes he brought records. I mean, he was a disc jockey
0:04:52 > 0:04:56and he always came loaded with cigarettes.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59Because, of course, back then all the girls smoked.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03And some of the girls would get chosen to take a ride
0:05:03 > 0:05:06in the Rolls with Jimmy. Is that right?
0:05:06 > 0:05:07Yes.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09BLEEPING
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Did you have any inkling of what might be in store?
0:05:20 > 0:05:21Had there been whispers?
0:05:21 > 0:05:26There weren't whispers. We talked about it openly.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28- About what he was after? - Yeah, yeah.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37He had mainly been doing a bit of snogging,
0:05:37 > 0:05:40sticking his tongue down your throat,
0:05:40 > 0:05:44which was horrible because he tasted of those fat, smelly cigars,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47and he liked to have a grope, if he could.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54There was nothing to grope on my chest, but he did like to grope.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57I think he preferred smaller breasts, actually.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59What makes you say that?
0:05:59 > 0:06:03Because the girls that he tended to select
0:06:03 > 0:06:11tended to be on the slender and less developed side.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22If I'm absolutely honest with you,
0:06:22 > 0:06:27the abuse that I suffered at the hands of Jimmy Savile
0:06:27 > 0:06:30was nothing compared to what had gone before.
0:06:30 > 0:06:31- So...- From your stepfather?
0:06:31 > 0:06:35Yeah, and my stepfather's friends.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38By the time I was about ten,
0:06:38 > 0:06:42I had decided that men were predators.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Men were bullies.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49Men only wanted women for sexual favours.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55So, because I was used to abuse...
0:06:55 > 0:06:58This must sound awful.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01Because I was more used to it,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04I didn't find the sort of things that he asked for
0:07:04 > 0:07:07to be peculiar, because by that time I had decided that,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10well, that's what men do, all men.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15You know, I can remember the first time that he wanted me
0:07:15 > 0:07:18to fellate him and I was like,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20"No, I don't want to, I don't want to."
0:07:22 > 0:07:25So I gave him hand relief instead.
0:07:25 > 0:07:30But then the next time he took me out and asked me to fellate him,
0:07:30 > 0:07:32and I said, "I don't want to. I don't want to."
0:07:32 > 0:07:35He said, "Look if you do, you can come to London
0:07:35 > 0:07:37"and be on my television programme."
0:07:41 > 0:07:43Morning all. Morning all.
0:07:43 > 0:07:44Welcome to Clunk Clink.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46How are we today?
0:07:46 > 0:07:50Obviously if you, as a child,
0:07:50 > 0:07:54have to fellate an adult,
0:07:54 > 0:07:58there's a lot of gagging and retching
0:07:58 > 0:08:02and quite often vomiting involved.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06He flung the car door open and said, "Not in the car, not in the car."
0:08:25 > 0:08:27Did you watch my documentary at the time?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29- Yeah.- What did you make of it?
0:08:29 > 0:08:30Um...
0:08:30 > 0:08:34What were you expecting and what did you see?
0:08:34 > 0:08:38My actual reaction was along the lines of,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41"Poor Louis.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45"He's really, really been hoodwinked here."
0:08:48 > 0:08:49Sorry.
0:08:51 > 0:08:52Sorry.
0:08:52 > 0:08:57- It's an awful thing to say. - No, no, it's good to hear that.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01After he died, I really had to take a step back
0:09:01 > 0:09:04and examine my own conscience a little bit to think about,
0:09:04 > 0:09:09"Well, what did I miss and what more could I have done?"
0:09:09 > 0:09:13We can all look back now and say, "Why didn't we see that?
0:09:13 > 0:09:18"Yeah, he told us what he was.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20"And we didn't see it. Why didn't we see it?"
0:09:23 > 0:09:24He was very clever.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37The idea that he might have a secret
0:09:37 > 0:09:41was one of the motivations behind my original documentary.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Like many, from my teenage years, I had heard unsavoury rumours
0:09:49 > 0:09:51about Jimmy Savile.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53From our first day together,
0:09:53 > 0:09:55it was clear he enjoyed the perception
0:09:55 > 0:09:58that no-one knew his private affairs.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00- Do we not talk about that? - We can talk about anything.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04- Prince Charles and Princess Diana. - That's right. Talk about anything.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07You'll find out how tricky I am. Next.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Got him on the ropes.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12I've got him on the ropes. He's on the ropes.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18But as filming progressed, I saw that he was committing himself
0:10:18 > 0:10:21to the documentary in ways I hadn't expected
0:10:21 > 0:10:23from someone of his celebrity.
0:10:25 > 0:10:26Whoa!
0:10:26 > 0:10:28'Working long hours.'
0:10:28 > 0:10:29Give me the bag, Jimmy.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33'Staying overnight in a caravan in Scotland.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36'Letting me sleep in his dead mother's bedroom.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41'On one of our last days of filming,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45'I'd asked about the rumours that swirled around him.'
0:10:45 > 0:10:49It's easy for me, as a single man, to say,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52"I don't like children."
0:10:52 > 0:10:58Because that puts a lot of salacious tabloid people
0:10:58 > 0:11:00off the hunt.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05Are you basically saying that so tabloids don't pursue
0:11:05 > 0:11:08this whole is he, isn't he a paedophile line, basically?
0:11:08 > 0:11:10Yes. Yes. Yes.
0:11:10 > 0:11:11Oh, aye.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13How do they know whether I am or not?
0:11:13 > 0:11:15How does anybody know whether I am?
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Nobody knows whether I am or not. I know I'm not.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21I can tell you from experience the easy way of doing it
0:11:21 > 0:11:23when they say "All them children on Jim'll Fix It."
0:11:23 > 0:11:25- "Yeah, hate them." - Yeah,
0:11:25 > 0:11:30- To me, that sounds more sort of suspicious in a way...- Hard luck.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32..because it seems so implausible.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34- That's my policy. That's the way it goes.- Really?
0:11:34 > 0:11:35'At the time it hadn't felt
0:11:35 > 0:11:38'like a particularly revealing exchange.'
0:11:38 > 0:11:40Ho, ho, ho.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42And it's on until 10pm.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44After the documentary went out,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47I felt a degree of gratitude for the effort he'd put into it
0:11:47 > 0:11:49and we kept in touch.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54Here we go. What Jimmy and Louis did next.
0:11:54 > 0:11:59"Welcome to the 21st century's strangest friendship."
0:11:59 > 0:12:02"I found Jimmy rather defensive", says Louis.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04"If someone came into your house and went through your stuff,
0:12:04 > 0:12:06"what would you be?" rails Jimmy.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09"But I tell you something - he found zilch.
0:12:09 > 0:12:13"I'm not into white powder, I'm not into that underage shit.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16"I'm a marathon runner and we're very boring people."
0:12:23 > 0:12:25- JONATHAN ROSS:- Louis Theroux with us in the studio.
0:12:25 > 0:12:27- Thank you for coming in. - Thanks for having me.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29Like most of the country, I think, I'm intrigued
0:12:29 > 0:12:31by what actually goes on in Jimmy's head,
0:12:31 > 0:12:33in Jimmy's life, in Jimmy's house.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36Was there any one thing you wanted to ask Jimmy when you were there
0:12:36 > 0:12:37and you lost your nerve?
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Well, it's hard to say. No, he's pretty much...
0:12:40 > 0:12:42You can ask him almost anything.
0:12:42 > 0:12:43He is a sexual enigma.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47I still haven't really sorted out what's goes on there exactly.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Our association had lasted a number of years.
0:13:00 > 0:13:05Jimmy Savile used to boast that he didn't have emotions.
0:13:05 > 0:13:11But there are many people who knew him in a friendly way for decades.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14I wondered if they might shed light on who he really was.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31DOORBELL PLAYS JAUNTY TUNE
0:13:33 > 0:13:37- Hi, Janet.- Good morning.- Louis. - Hello.- How do you do?
0:13:37 > 0:13:39I'm better now I've seen you. Come in.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41Shall I take these off?
0:13:41 > 0:13:42Only if you're staying in.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44What do you think?
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Should we go into the garage and look at some of the stuff?
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Yes. Right, I'll just get my coat.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53- Yes.- Can I shut the door now?
0:13:53 > 0:13:56- Course you can. You do what you want, Janet?- Cut.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02Janet Cope was Jimmy Savile's PA.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06Besides his mother, she probably spent more time with him
0:14:06 > 0:14:08than any other woman.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12This is your stuff that remains from when you were working with him
0:14:12 > 0:14:15and you worked with him for about 28 years, didn't you?
0:14:15 > 0:14:17Yeah, nearly 30.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20"Dear Jimmy. I was enormously touched by your very kind letter.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24"Yours sincerely, Prince Charles."
0:14:24 > 0:14:27- There's one like that from Mrs Thatcher somewhere.- Is there?
0:14:27 > 0:14:29Yeah.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32- But he always remembered his team.- Yeah.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34There wasn't anywhere I couldn't ring.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36To get hold of Downing Street,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39I had a direct line to Downing Street.
0:14:39 > 0:14:44It's been quite hard finding close friends of his to speak now.
0:14:44 > 0:14:49Yeah. He didn't have many close friends.
0:14:49 > 0:14:54He found friends an incumbence.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58He liked his freedom. He didn't want anything that weighed him down.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02In a way a friendship is a two-way relationship.
0:15:02 > 0:15:07- Yes.- And really, he wanted one-way relationships.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11Yes. Which is why, I think, Jim and I got on so well.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13He controlled things.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17Not in a nasty way, but in a positive way.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20He'd come over here for his dinner.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24But he still had control over me, like what we ate,
0:15:24 > 0:15:29the time he would arrive, the smoking indoors.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34Oh, look! "After all this, it's got to be that."
0:15:38 > 0:15:41What do you think about that?
0:15:41 > 0:15:44Didn't worry me. Didn't think twice about it.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47Well, for someone who advertised the fact
0:15:47 > 0:15:49that he didn't have any emotions...
0:15:49 > 0:15:51No, no, course he...
0:15:51 > 0:15:53He loves me cos I'm convenient.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56I think I know the answer to this. Did...?
0:15:56 > 0:15:58No, I didn't love him.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05Did you see the documentary I made with him?
0:16:05 > 0:16:06Yeah. Yeah. I did.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Did you have any thoughts on it?
0:16:09 > 0:16:10I laughed because I thought,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13especially when you were in the back of that camper van
0:16:13 > 0:16:14and he said he slept in it all night.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17I thought, "Good old Louis, he's believed him."
0:16:17 > 0:16:19- You think he didn't? - No, of course he didn't.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21What makes you think he didn't?
0:16:21 > 0:16:22Because he's a good liar.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27He used to tell people how many marathons he'd done.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31Every time he'd tell journalists the number of marathons he'd done,
0:16:31 > 0:16:33the number was different.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35But I had no proof and neither did anybody else,
0:16:35 > 0:16:37because nobody checked up on it.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44Did you feel that he had any sexual interests?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I used to tell people that he was asexual
0:16:47 > 0:16:52because people always accused him of being gay and he wasn't gay.
0:16:52 > 0:17:00But then he wasn't craving what I call female...closeness.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03In my... Not that I ever saw or witnessed. Ever.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11Jim fixed me. I remember that.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13I read it at the time.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18"For 28 years she was PA to the eccentric Savile.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20"Even cooking and cleaning for him.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23" 'Then one day', says Janet Cope, 'she was out, not with a warning
0:17:23 > 0:17:25" 'and not even a thank you.' "
0:17:25 > 0:17:29I was sick to death of hearing him say, "Put the kettle on."
0:17:29 > 0:17:35Made the tea, took it in. Just put it all around the table.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38And then he said... One thing led to another. I can't remember.
0:17:38 > 0:17:44- He said, "She's going."- She's out. - She's out.
0:17:44 > 0:17:45Pointing at you?
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Yeah, well, I was...
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I don't know how I felt, I was gobsmacked.
0:17:52 > 0:17:53I went up to him and I just said,
0:17:53 > 0:17:56"Jim, why have you done this to me? Why have you done this?
0:17:56 > 0:17:59"I've lied for you. I've looked after you all this time. Why have you done this to me?"
0:17:59 > 0:18:01He had a pile of papers in his hand.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04He said, "Today's today, tomorrow's tomorrow.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06"I've got a train to catch. End of."
0:18:08 > 0:18:10He didn't understand other people's feelings.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12He didn't.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14He just didn't.
0:18:14 > 0:18:15But then they weren't important to him,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17so why should he understand them?
0:18:23 > 0:18:27- Janet, you have been Jimmy's assistant for 20 years...?- Was. Was.
0:18:27 > 0:18:28LAUGHTER
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Before you leave his employ, can you tell us about it?
0:18:31 > 0:18:34Yes, Jimmy has a dream and he usually makes dreams come true.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38I couldn't help feeling that Janet too had been used by Jimmy Savile.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44A provider of food and shelter and showing total loyalty
0:18:44 > 0:18:49and yet without ever really getting close.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52It was striking that someone could know him so well
0:18:52 > 0:18:55while also knowing him barely at all.
0:19:05 > 0:19:06In our time together,
0:19:06 > 0:19:09Jimmy Savile had only entertained serious questions
0:19:09 > 0:19:13about his private life on one occasion.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16- Do they ever ask you to host it? - Not just now.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19'During a visit to the flat in Scarborough he'd once shared
0:19:19 > 0:19:22'with the only woman he'd ever said he loved.'
0:19:22 > 0:19:24You said you have the Duchess's clothes?
0:19:24 > 0:19:27- Yeah, artefacts.- Artefacts. - Artefacts.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30'His mother, who he called the Duchess.'
0:19:30 > 0:19:33My cleaner takes them out
0:19:33 > 0:19:37and gets them cleaned and freshened up once...
0:19:37 > 0:19:40about once a year. Now all this gear was gear she wore,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42so instead of slinging it away, I thought I would hang on to it,
0:19:42 > 0:19:46cos these make better souvenirs than photographs.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Look, it's all knitting, stuff like that.
0:19:48 > 0:19:49Knitting.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53Knitting.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55- We both lived here. - Together?- Of course.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57Did that not cramp your style a little bit?
0:19:57 > 0:19:59No, not at all.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02If you see over there on the horizon a caravan camp.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04- Yeah.- I had a caravan there.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07So that was the love nest.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12It was my big chance to address the central question
0:20:12 > 0:20:14of what his sexual interests were.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18Do you mean to say that you've never, ever, ever had a girlfriend?
0:20:18 > 0:20:21Friends that are girls, eight million.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23Friends that are girls. Yeah.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25But girlfriend in the sense of today,
0:20:25 > 0:20:30ie, you are together, you don't bother with anyone else, et cetera -
0:20:30 > 0:20:32no, never.
0:20:33 > 0:20:34Never.
0:20:34 > 0:20:39- Not even for like a week? - No. Not even for a week. No.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48What strikes me looking back is that in describing large numbers
0:20:48 > 0:20:50of fleeting encounters,
0:20:50 > 0:20:52he was telling part of the truth,
0:20:52 > 0:20:55leaving out that they involved child molestation,
0:20:55 > 0:20:57rape and sexual assault.
0:21:12 > 0:21:18A few weeks after the documentary aired in 2000, I received a letter.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20It came from two women who described themselves
0:21:20 > 0:21:22as girlfriends of Jimmy Savile.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27"We watched your TV programme with great interest.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29"It's a shame in your research you didn't find us
0:21:29 > 0:21:31"and ask us some questions about Jim.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34"We could have directed you as to how to tackle him
0:21:34 > 0:21:36"and what to ask.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38"Contrary to what Jim would like you to believe,
0:21:38 > 0:21:41"Jim did have a lot of girlfriends, not girls that were just friends.
0:21:41 > 0:21:46"We were two of them. All Jim's girlfriends knew each other.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48"There was never jealousies.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50"We're all enormous friends to this day."
0:21:56 > 0:21:59I went along to meet them for tea in London.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04They were in their mid-40s.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07They described a long friendly relationship
0:22:07 > 0:22:09that had start decades earlier at the BBC.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18But knowing everything I know now about Jimmy Savile,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20some details of what they told me are troubling.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26I said to one of them, "How old were you?"
0:22:26 > 0:22:27"You sound like Jimmy", she said,
0:22:27 > 0:22:31"That's the first question he would always ask. How old are you?"
0:22:31 > 0:22:33"Why?" I said, "Why do you think?"
0:22:35 > 0:22:39If you extract the details,
0:22:39 > 0:22:43it is predatory and...
0:22:43 > 0:22:45inappropriate and unhealthy.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49In fact, one of them had been 15 when she started the relationship,
0:22:49 > 0:22:51so it is criminal.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55But you've got the friendship and also their tone,
0:22:55 > 0:22:57which was to do with affection.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06At the time, I took the relationships to be symptomatic
0:23:06 > 0:23:11of a different era, the show business world of the '60s and '70s.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24In fact, in those early days at the BBC,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27Jimmy Savile was involved in multiple sexual assaults.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29Some involving children.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36The shows he made gave him access to vulnerable youngsters...
0:23:36 > 0:23:39and also the celebrity and the cache to win their trust.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Oh, don't go in the water.
0:23:41 > 0:23:42- Hi, Gill.- Hi, Louis.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45- Louis, how do you do? - How do you do?- Nice to meet you.
0:23:45 > 0:23:46You too.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48Do you come out here quite a bit.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51'Gill Stribling-Wright, an ex-BBC producer,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55'worked with him on and off for 30 years.'
0:23:55 > 0:23:59What was your professional association with Jimmy Savile?
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Well, I was a researcher on Jim'll Fix It
0:24:03 > 0:24:04right from the beginning,
0:24:04 > 0:24:09and before that, two series of a not very successful show
0:24:09 > 0:24:13- called Clunk Click.- Did you also work on Top Of The Pops?
0:24:13 > 0:24:15I worked on Top Of The Pops, yes.
0:24:15 > 0:24:21Have you familiarised yourself with the various accounts
0:24:21 > 0:24:25by victims of what happened in the reports that have come out?
0:24:25 > 0:24:31No. I haven't read in detail the reports
0:24:31 > 0:24:35- because I don't quite know what I'd do with it.- Hmm.
0:24:37 > 0:24:38I didn't see anything.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40I've done various interviews about it
0:24:40 > 0:24:42and I really didn't see anything
0:24:42 > 0:24:44that would give me cause for concern.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50The music industry was like that,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52sex and drugs and rock and roll.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56People could get away with stuff, as much as they probably still do.
0:24:56 > 0:25:01The small difference of this being a BBC studio,
0:25:01 > 0:25:04- a BBC dressing room, basically a kids' show...- Right.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06A kids' show that you were working on.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12It always sounds shocking when people say they're not shocked
0:25:12 > 0:25:15and horrified and dramatically overwhelmed by everything,
0:25:15 > 0:25:18but, um...I wasn't.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23I wonder if you would react slightly differently if you read the reports.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27There's an accumulation of account which is...
0:25:27 > 0:25:29There were words that you mentioned,
0:25:29 > 0:25:34"horrifying", but which are actually justified.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37And which you can only really appreciate
0:25:37 > 0:25:40if you see the scale, if you try to comprehend the scale
0:25:40 > 0:25:42of what went on.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50It sounds when we talk about it like you're trying to...
0:25:50 > 0:25:54I feel like I'm trying to justify why this thing happened
0:25:54 > 0:25:56and why nobody did anything about it.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05I mean, my relationship with Savile was very much in the workplace.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08I didn't see him on any social occasions,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11but then, as he once said to me,
0:26:11 > 0:26:15I was a bit walnut-ish. I was in my mid-20s.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17What did you take walnut-ish to mean?
0:26:17 > 0:26:19A bit too old.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21Because walnuts are sort of wrinkly?
0:26:21 > 0:26:23- Wrinkly, exactly. - Brown and wrinkly.- Exactly.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28Part of his persona was the fact
0:26:28 > 0:26:31that he would tread very close to the line,
0:26:31 > 0:26:32in hindsight, you realise now.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40I once had a conversation with him about the perfect crime.
0:26:40 > 0:26:46And he said, "The problem is it's not a perfect crime
0:26:46 > 0:26:49"unless you can get the kudos for having committed the perfect crime,
0:26:49 > 0:26:51"but the second you get the kudos for having committed
0:26:51 > 0:26:54"the perfect crime, ie by telling somebody,
0:26:54 > 0:26:58"it is then no longer the perfect crime."
0:26:58 > 0:27:01I sometimes wonder if he was kind of teasing the world
0:27:01 > 0:27:03in an effort to be discovered.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26Here's another one. Louis's tip.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29I think that's when he came into the office on one occasion.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43In 2001, Jimmy Savile paid a visit to my BBC offices
0:27:43 > 0:27:46for a short follow-up documentary.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52- Good morning.- Hello.- How are you?
0:27:52 > 0:27:54What a dreadful tip this is.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56Dreadful tip.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01He was dressed inappropriately, his behaviour was borderline creepy,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03but at the time, like others,
0:28:03 > 0:28:06I felt this was part of his comic persona.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09Louis's tip.
0:28:13 > 0:28:14Right.
0:28:14 > 0:28:15Oh, my goodness!
0:28:15 > 0:28:17Oh, yes! Yes!
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Here. I hope that Mr Louis Theroux never comes.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22That will do for me.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24I would like to strip these girls, baring their secrets.
0:28:24 > 0:28:25Mr Jimmy Savile, how are you doing?
0:28:25 > 0:28:27You didn't jog all the way down, did you?
0:28:27 > 0:28:28Where've you been?
0:28:28 > 0:28:31This beautiful girl has just come in bearing gifts.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33Thank you. You are very, very kind.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35Can you walk away slowly, please?
0:28:35 > 0:28:40Thank you. Now what I'm going to do, because I'm in the BBC,
0:28:40 > 0:28:41I must now change.
0:28:43 > 0:28:45You don't mind if I change here, do you?
0:28:45 > 0:28:47Looking back he almost seems to be showing
0:28:47 > 0:28:50how much he can get away with.
0:28:50 > 0:28:51And daring us to challenge him.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Later, his conversation returned to a favourite theme
0:28:58 > 0:29:01of how to deal with unwelcome attention from the tabloids.
0:29:06 > 0:29:10Does it perturb you at all that you are actually in that category
0:29:10 > 0:29:13where somebody can have a go at you?
0:29:13 > 0:29:15They don't care whether it's right, wrong, true, false,
0:29:15 > 0:29:19so long as they've got names, baby, they'll have a feast.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22Say, for instance, you were interviewing me
0:29:22 > 0:29:26on an allegation of something that was not nice, right?
0:29:26 > 0:29:30And you said to me, you're alleged to have...
0:29:30 > 0:29:31de-dum-de-dum-de-dum.
0:29:31 > 0:29:38My answer would be, "It would be a lot worse if it were true."
0:29:39 > 0:29:42Well... LOUIS CLEARS HIS THROAT
0:29:42 > 0:29:45They do say no smoke without a fire, don't they?
0:29:58 > 0:30:01After he died, there were numerous reports
0:30:01 > 0:30:05detailing the scale of Jimmy Savile's offending.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09They identified 326 victims,
0:30:09 > 0:30:11describing a range of incidents,
0:30:11 > 0:30:16from the relatively less serious to rape and child abuse.
0:30:18 > 0:30:2172 victims involved the BBC.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24177 were at hospitals.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27"We know that your client has agreed not to pursue a claim
0:30:27 > 0:30:29- "against this newspaper." - That's right.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33They said that I was derogatory to patients.
0:30:33 > 0:30:37Right. Which I wasn't. And so they agreed that I wasn't
0:30:37 > 0:30:39and they said, "We have made a mistake,
0:30:39 > 0:30:41"kindly take this nice few quid."
0:30:41 > 0:30:43That seems a bit rich, given how much...
0:30:43 > 0:30:46I mean for them to accuse you of being derogatory to patients
0:30:46 > 0:30:48- given how much money you raise. - That's why they all pay up.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50- Do they?- Oh, aye.
0:31:01 > 0:31:06Cherie Wheatcroft was a patient at Stoke Mandeville in 1973.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08DOORBELL BUZZES
0:31:10 > 0:31:12Hello. Louis.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15- How do you do?- How do you do? Nice to meet you.- Hello, hello.
0:31:15 > 0:31:16- Come in.- Thank you.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19How do you like to say your name? Che-ree or Cher-ee?
0:31:19 > 0:31:21- Are you Clive?- Hi.- Louis.
0:31:21 > 0:31:23- Very pleased to meet you. - Nice to meet you.
0:31:23 > 0:31:24- Are these all your paintings?- Yes.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27That's what I spend most of my time doing.
0:31:27 > 0:31:31Painting all day and actually all night, mostly.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33- They're beautiful.- Thank you. - Very nice.
0:31:33 > 0:31:35There's a lot of James Blunt pictures.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38Well, I did...
0:31:38 > 0:31:39Do you specialise in him?
0:31:39 > 0:31:41No.
0:31:41 > 0:31:45Basically, my daughter was a big fan and she introduced me to him.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47We went to see him.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50Believe it or not, James Blunt came at the side of me
0:31:50 > 0:31:52and I got pushed into him.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54- Look at that. That's brilliant. - Yeah.
0:31:58 > 0:31:59All right?
0:32:03 > 0:32:05Do you consider yourself to have been a victim?
0:32:05 > 0:32:07Are you happy with that term?
0:32:07 > 0:32:08Em...yeah.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14I would never let my children watch him on television.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17As soon as anything came on about him,
0:32:17 > 0:32:18I would turn the television off.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20When Jim'll Fix It was on?
0:32:20 > 0:32:21Yeah, anything like that.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26But you said you watched the documentary I made in 2000?
0:32:26 > 0:32:28Yes, I did watch that.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30So what did you...? What was the feeling of...?
0:32:30 > 0:32:33I was just really, really annoyed. I was, like, fuming.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35I just thought, "Oh, he's a silly chap,
0:32:35 > 0:32:38"he doesn't know what goes on. He doesn't know.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40"So gullible." You know?
0:32:40 > 0:32:42Why have you written my name and address on this pad?
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Because I never know whether you existed or not.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48Yeah. How did you get the address?
0:32:48 > 0:32:50- I get anything, me. - How did you get it, though?
0:32:50 > 0:32:54I can get anything. There's nothing I can't get
0:32:54 > 0:32:55and there's nothing I can't do.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57Thank you.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59You felt that I was gullible and silly?
0:32:59 > 0:33:00Mm, oh, yeah.
0:33:00 > 0:33:06You were young. And he was like, "I'm the celebrity.
0:33:06 > 0:33:10"I'm... I'm big." You know.
0:33:10 > 0:33:14And then that just came over that he was manipulating things.
0:33:14 > 0:33:20What has been difficult is realising that...
0:33:20 > 0:33:24I failed to get to the truth about him and that I wasn't able to do
0:33:24 > 0:33:27more to kind of bring him to account while he was still alive.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Well, he was so good at disguising everything.
0:33:34 > 0:33:41I was at school doing A-levels. But all hell went loose because
0:33:41 > 0:33:42I found out I was pregnant.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48I was too scared to let my parents know about it, and I had it
0:33:48 > 0:33:51on January 18th and they didn't know.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55I just wanted to go home. And there was a huge electric
0:33:55 > 0:33:59two-bar fire behind the door, and I fell on it,
0:33:59 > 0:34:04like this. So I remember looking at my hands and just fainting.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12And then I didn't know where I was going, of course.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14I just remember seeing trees go by.
0:34:18 > 0:34:23I got to the hospital and obviously started to come round.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30I couldn't use my hands. They were all bandaged up.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33And I was sitting on the end of my bed and I was just
0:34:33 > 0:34:35looking out the window, as I am now...
0:34:37 > 0:34:43..and I saw somebody just running, but as they were running,
0:34:43 > 0:34:47they looked at me, and of course I was looking at them.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50And their run... They changed course.
0:34:53 > 0:34:59And the eyes fixed on me. And they started running directly towards me.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06And the next minute, the person tried to climb in the window.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09And I just couldn't believe it. I was like
0:35:09 > 0:35:13in shock, and he was climbing in, and by the
0:35:13 > 0:35:16time he got down, jumped down, he was then
0:35:16 > 0:35:19smiling but came straight at me.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22Went to kiss me and stuck his tongue right down my throat.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25Went for my face. Obviously, I couldn't use my hands.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29Held my face and put his tongue right down my throat.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32And it wasn't just quick. It went on and on.
0:35:32 > 0:35:34And then he started jabbering.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37"You've been a naughty girl, haven't you?
0:35:37 > 0:35:40"You've been a naughty girl, haven't you?
0:35:40 > 0:35:45"You've been a naughty girl with your boyfriend, haven't you?"
0:35:45 > 0:35:48He just kept on repeating. It wasn't just, like,
0:35:48 > 0:35:50going on to one sentence and then another. He just kept repeating it.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53Because I didn't answer, he kept repeating it.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02And there was things coming out about my health
0:36:02 > 0:36:04and previous things, and I thought...
0:36:04 > 0:36:07Straight away I knew that he'd seen my health record.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11Something gave me the idea that he'd seen my health records or that he'd
0:36:11 > 0:36:13spoken to the head surgeon, as well, whatever,
0:36:13 > 0:36:17or somebody had told him that I'm on my own in there.
0:36:19 > 0:36:23It sort of suggests that he had scoped you out.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25I mean, I don't want to compare
0:36:25 > 0:36:27something hideous that you went through to
0:36:27 > 0:36:30something trivial, but in my documentary
0:36:30 > 0:36:32there's a moment when he shows me a bit of paper
0:36:32 > 0:36:34with my address on it, which was ex-directory
0:36:34 > 0:36:37and therefore not easy to get hold of, that led
0:36:37 > 0:36:40me to believe that he had somehow finagled his way into...
0:36:40 > 0:36:45or knew someone with access to my... You know, some civil servant.
0:36:45 > 0:36:47I think he probably did.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50You've been with Clive about 20 years, did you say?
0:36:50 > 0:36:53- Yes.- And I imagine you spoke to Clive about
0:36:53 > 0:36:57- the Jimmy Savile incidents?- Oh, yes, yes.- You knew about that before?
0:36:57 > 0:37:04I've known about it in fleeting parts, only when Cherie has
0:37:04 > 0:37:05- opened up about it.- Mm-hm.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09The most current question that people ask, I have
0:37:09 > 0:37:13noticed, is "Why didn't you say something about it?"
0:37:13 > 0:37:15I'm furious with myself, as well.
0:37:15 > 0:37:20Why on earth didn't I just go up to somebody
0:37:20 > 0:37:22and complain and make a thing of it?
0:37:22 > 0:37:26But you were scared to. He'd got money, influence.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29You know, that whole thing, you were, you know,
0:37:29 > 0:37:33you were just, like, scared to say anything, you know.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48'In 2000, Jimmy Savile had taken me to
0:37:48 > 0:37:51'the hospital where he'd once abused Cherie.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54'Throughout the '70s and afterwards, he'd continued
0:37:54 > 0:37:58'to visit, raising millions for a new building.'
0:37:58 > 0:38:01So, where are we, in fact? This is the Stoke Mandeville
0:38:01 > 0:38:03spinal injuries centre?
0:38:03 > 0:38:06No, this is the National Spinal Injuries Centre
0:38:06 > 0:38:07at Stoke Mandeville Hospital.
0:38:07 > 0:38:11'Is this the jewel in the crown of the Jimmy Savile accomplishments?'
0:38:11 > 0:38:13I would have said it's the biggest. Yes.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15How does it make you feel, walking through these
0:38:15 > 0:38:18corridors which you were instrumental in building?
0:38:18 > 0:38:20Well, seeing as they've been open for 20 years,
0:38:20 > 0:38:24I don't feel anything now. Just nice and happy that it's here.
0:38:28 > 0:38:32'At the time, amid all his bizarre qualities, Jimmy Savile's
0:38:32 > 0:38:35'charitable work had felt like his great redeeming feature.
0:38:39 > 0:38:42'In hindsight, it was a smokescreen for his abuse
0:38:42 > 0:38:45'and a way of getting access to vulnerable people.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54'I was curious to meet someone from the hospital
0:38:54 > 0:38:57'and to hear how they made sense of it all now, looking back.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03'Sylvia Nicol worked closely with Jimmy Savile on the
0:39:03 > 0:39:05'Stoke Mandeville appeal.'
0:39:07 > 0:39:10- Hi. Sylvia? Louis. - Yes! Hello, Louis!
0:39:10 > 0:39:14- Can I come in?- Yeah, I'll let you come in!- You'll let me? OK.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17- I will.- Thank you.
0:39:17 > 0:39:24- Is that you there?- Yeah, that's me. That's Jan, me and Marie-Ann.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28In what capacity were you working when you first met him?
0:39:28 > 0:39:31As a medical secretary, at the NHS
0:39:31 > 0:39:35in the spinal centre at Stoke Mandeville Hospital.
0:39:36 > 0:39:42He came to Stoke in '69, and it was
0:39:42 > 0:39:45to do a walk for the Red Cross. And he stayed.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49He basically made our office a bit of a base.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58It was 2nd January 1980.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01We had a really bad snowstorm.
0:40:01 > 0:40:07All our ceilings were caving in. They were wooden huts built in 1943.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09The lights were full of water
0:40:09 > 0:40:11as the snow was melting, you know, that deep,
0:40:11 > 0:40:14and it was chaos.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17And Dr Silver then phoned Jim.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20"You must come, you must come. You've got to do something."
0:40:20 > 0:40:27And Jim did. And within two days, we were flooded with letters
0:40:27 > 0:40:29into Stoke Mandeville.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33Just "Jimmy Savile, Stoke Mandeville Hospital" is all it would say.
0:40:33 > 0:40:39And in it would be cheques and money, fluffy toys,
0:40:39 > 0:40:42- everything came in.- And when did it open, do you recall?
0:40:43 > 0:40:481983, August 3rd was the opening day.
0:40:48 > 0:40:53- That was where Prince Charles and Princess Diana came along?- Yeah.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Prince Charles went to Stoke Mandeville Hospital
0:40:56 > 0:40:58in Buckinghamshire today to open a new unit, and even
0:40:58 > 0:41:01though it wasn't planned, he took his wife along with him.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05Only I know the real reason the princess is here, and I must say
0:41:05 > 0:41:09it's a complicated way of getting a request played on Radio 1.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11LAUGHTER
0:41:11 > 0:41:15When I said that it cost £10 million,
0:41:15 > 0:41:20how on earth do you raise £10 million in three years?
0:41:20 > 0:41:23APPLAUSE
0:41:27 > 0:41:32- Oh, my goodness.- You can get it out, if you can.- Yeah.
0:41:32 > 0:41:36- Can I? There it is.- There it is.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38So this picture, when people said,
0:41:38 > 0:41:45"Have you got anything you can give us when we send you money in?"
0:41:45 > 0:41:48we sent them this, quite a big photograph, probably
0:41:48 > 0:41:51that big, of Jim, rolled up.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54As a thank you for donations, yeah.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59There's the Lego. And, as you can see, it's the same colouring.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04- Who did that?- Lego.- Lego did it? - Legoland sent us that.
0:42:04 > 0:42:11Everything just came to him. It was an unbelievable experience,
0:42:11 > 0:42:14that appeal.
0:42:14 > 0:42:20Now, every morning I open this door and say, "Why don't you do
0:42:20 > 0:42:25- "something about all this?" - You do?- I do.
0:42:25 > 0:42:29I can see him. I don't quite cover his face,
0:42:29 > 0:42:31and I say, "Why don't you do something about all this?"
0:42:31 > 0:42:33Because I reckoned he could do anything.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36Do something about what?
0:42:36 > 0:42:41This...what's...furore that's arisen since he died.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45- Do you really do that?- I really do that.- Why do you do that?
0:42:45 > 0:42:49I don't know. I don't know. Because what else can you do? You can't...
0:42:51 > 0:42:56I did pray to God a little bit, occasionally. Sort of said,
0:42:56 > 0:42:59"Why is all this happening?"
0:43:00 > 0:43:04Because it was just...shattering.
0:43:08 > 0:43:13So, basically, am I right in thinking you don't really believe
0:43:13 > 0:43:14that, um...
0:43:16 > 0:43:18..he raped, abused, molested?
0:43:18 > 0:43:22No, I've never said that I don't believe that.
0:43:22 > 0:43:27I've made an absolute point of saying
0:43:27 > 0:43:32I only saw the good in Jimmy Savile.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36I never saw anything in that line.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40And had I seen anything in that line, I would
0:43:40 > 0:43:42have been the first to report it.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45I believe that you didn't see anything like that.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48- I didn't see anything like that either.- Nor hear anything like that.
0:43:48 > 0:43:50But I also have to, erm...
0:43:51 > 0:43:55..believe those accounts and...
0:43:55 > 0:44:00try to square them with... the person that I thought I knew.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06But you didn't know him for as long as I did.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09We've had a pretty ghastly time.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11Go on.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15I'm a victim, his family are victims
0:44:15 > 0:44:18as much as anyone else would be a victim.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21Who or what are you a victim of?
0:44:23 > 0:44:27I'm a victim of... losing those memories.
0:44:29 > 0:44:33And that is quite a big thing out of your life...
0:44:34 > 0:44:40..because when you get older, your memories do become more important.
0:44:40 > 0:44:42And that was many years of memories.
0:44:43 > 0:44:49He wasn't a friend to me, he was a friend to what I'd...
0:44:50 > 0:44:55..spent 50 years of my life with, which is the spinal centre.
0:44:56 > 0:44:57And...
0:44:57 > 0:45:02we wouldn't have a spinal centre there now but for Jimmy,
0:45:02 > 0:45:08which would mean we wouldn't have a lot of people still alive.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12- Look in the corner.- Oh, yeah.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16You needn't film that, but I'm not going to get rid of it.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18- Can I take it out?- Yeah.
0:45:18 > 0:45:20Past...
0:45:21 > 0:45:23- This one?- Hmm.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26It's been there for years. It's been there for...
0:45:26 > 0:45:31It was Jim on one of his cruises.
0:45:33 > 0:45:38That one can go back there. That's discreet.
0:45:39 > 0:45:44So I try to only know, and I do know,
0:45:44 > 0:45:46that I only saw good.
0:45:47 > 0:45:51And that's all I can ever say about this.
0:45:57 > 0:46:01Sylvia seemed a stark example of how Jimmy Savile
0:46:01 > 0:46:04was able to win the good opinion of well-meaning people.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12'In the two years after my documentary,
0:46:12 > 0:46:15'I made three or four visits up to Leeds.
0:46:15 > 0:46:17'There was always a professional reason,
0:46:17 > 0:46:21'recording DVD inserts or doing press for shows.
0:46:21 > 0:46:26'And I continued to be tantalised by whether the mask might slip.'
0:46:26 > 0:46:28It's all right, no sweat.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31'But there was also a social dimension -
0:46:31 > 0:46:34'a part of me had come to see him as something like a friend...'
0:46:34 > 0:46:37Don't think I've ever been here in the summer before.
0:46:37 > 0:46:38Yeah, me neither.
0:46:38 > 0:46:40What's happening now?
0:46:40 > 0:46:43I'm just getting you the attention you deserve.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50'..while he had begun taking a proprietary interest in my career.'
0:46:56 > 0:46:58Your future is safe in my hands.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01Not only is your future safe, it's also glittering.
0:47:07 > 0:47:11We would visit a local restaurant called the Flying Pizza.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14- All right, my pleasure. - See you later.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24SAVILE LAUGHS
0:47:28 > 0:47:31These images now make for uncomfortable viewing.
0:47:32 > 0:47:37In fact, the mother and daughter were known to Jimmy Savile
0:47:37 > 0:47:39but it's striking, looking back now,
0:47:39 > 0:47:42how he normalised physically invasive behaviour,
0:47:42 > 0:47:46constantly blurring the line of what he was permitted to do.
0:47:51 > 0:47:53She said, "I love your programmes,"
0:47:53 > 0:47:55and the other one goes, "I think they're boring."
0:47:55 > 0:47:56SAVILE LAUGHS
0:47:56 > 0:47:59That's true. She said, "I think they're boring."
0:47:59 > 0:48:00I know.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04- Going home?- Yes, please.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11- Still got the Flying Pizza name on it.- It is.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14- It's Saint Carlo Flying Pizza. - Yeah.
0:48:14 > 0:48:15Let's hop out.
0:48:19 > 0:48:24It's actually quite an unprepossessing building, isn't it?
0:48:26 > 0:48:29I was back in Jimmy Savile's hometown of Leeds
0:48:29 > 0:48:32for the first time since being there with him.
0:48:36 > 0:48:40'I was with Susan, a woman who'd met him in the '70s,
0:48:40 > 0:48:43'and still lives close to his old stomping ground.'
0:48:43 > 0:48:46So you'd actually met him on these two occasions,
0:48:46 > 0:48:48is that right?
0:48:48 > 0:48:50Yes, the first time when I tested his eyes,
0:48:50 > 0:48:53and the second when I delivered the specs.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55I think it was 1972.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57- ANNOUNCER:- Jimmy Savile!
0:48:57 > 0:49:00CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:49:03 > 0:49:07He used to wear great big plastic glasses.
0:49:09 > 0:49:11And I remember the manager called and said,
0:49:11 > 0:49:12"Your specs are ready,"
0:49:12 > 0:49:14and that's when he said to the manager,
0:49:14 > 0:49:17"Send the one with the big knockers and the short skirt."
0:49:19 > 0:49:23That was how I looked when I was about 21, 22,
0:49:23 > 0:49:25so that's...
0:49:25 > 0:49:27- That's who you were at that time? - That's who I was.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30In those days, one of my main features was my boobs
0:49:30 > 0:49:34and I always got teased about them so, yeah,
0:49:34 > 0:49:36when he said, "Send the one with the big knockers and short skirt,"
0:49:36 > 0:49:38it didn't mean anything.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40- You know, I never thought anything of it.- Yeah.
0:49:40 > 0:49:43- Evidently, because you went. - Because I went, in a taxi.
0:49:45 > 0:49:49Clutching a pair of specs, knocked on his door and in I went.
0:49:50 > 0:49:55And then went through into this really shabby back-to-back terrace,
0:49:55 > 0:49:57down Consort Terrace it was.
0:49:58 > 0:50:01So, "Jimmy Savile guided tours of Leeds".
0:50:01 > 0:50:03- I didn't know they were doing that.- Gosh!
0:50:05 > 0:50:08That was April 2012. That can't have lasted very long.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20Yeah, now I look at it,
0:50:20 > 0:50:22I can remember going up the steps and ringing the bell.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27And it was just disgusting, it was filthy.
0:50:27 > 0:50:29Clothes... His tracksuits all over the floor.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34Empty cereal packets everywhere. Just dirty.
0:50:34 > 0:50:36So then what happened?
0:50:36 > 0:50:39So then I took the glasses out of the box,
0:50:39 > 0:50:42and I must have stood obviously fairly near him,
0:50:42 > 0:50:45like this, to put the specs on,
0:50:45 > 0:50:47and that's when he grabbed my boobs
0:50:47 > 0:50:50and he actually stuck his tongue in my mouth.
0:50:50 > 0:50:54And then as I stood back, he dropped his tracksuit bottoms
0:50:54 > 0:50:56and said, "How's about that, then?"
0:50:56 > 0:51:01And there was his...pink, wrinkly willy, as I described it.
0:51:01 > 0:51:02And he said, "How's about that, then?"
0:51:02 > 0:51:04Yeah, cos that was his phrase.
0:51:04 > 0:51:08- That was his catchphrase. - That was his catchphrase, yeah.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17And then he just sort of got on with the rest,
0:51:17 > 0:51:19put the glasses on, did...
0:51:19 > 0:51:21Pulled his tracksuit bottoms back up?
0:51:21 > 0:51:23Pulled his tracksuit bottoms back up,
0:51:23 > 0:51:26and then just carried on as though nothing had happened.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Put the glasses on, and then he did this very brief interview
0:51:29 > 0:51:32on a reel-to-reel tape thing, I think it was.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35Having just exposed himself to you,
0:51:35 > 0:51:40- he said, "Do you want to be on my radio programme?"- Yeah.
0:51:40 > 0:51:44Yeah, and of course, I'm there with this famous person,
0:51:44 > 0:51:47so I said, "Yeah, OK."
0:51:52 > 0:51:55APPLAUSE
0:52:05 > 0:52:11This afternoon, as we celebrate Jimmy Savile's requiem mass,
0:52:11 > 0:52:17it is our belief that although his body is stilled in death,
0:52:17 > 0:52:23his flamboyant and generous soul lives on.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27I listened to Radio Leeds, and they wanted people to come forward
0:52:27 > 0:52:29with stories about Jimmy Savile,
0:52:29 > 0:52:33so I put forward that I'd tested his eyes as a student
0:52:33 > 0:52:36and that's where I stopped the story.
0:52:36 > 0:52:41- DJ:- "Back in 1972, I was a very inexperienced student optometrist.
0:52:41 > 0:52:43"I had to test Jimmy's eyes.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46"I later then delivered his new specs to his home,
0:52:46 > 0:52:51"which was full of tracksuits, bling and packets of cornflakes!"
0:52:51 > 0:52:53- CHUCKLING: - That's a great story, that!
0:52:53 > 0:52:57Thank you very much indeed for that, Susan, I enjoyed reading that!
0:52:57 > 0:52:59Everybody else was texting Radio Leeds, and I thought,
0:52:59 > 0:53:02"Well, I actually met him, I did test his eyes,"
0:53:02 > 0:53:04so that's all I was saying.
0:53:04 > 0:53:06I missed the second half of the sentence out.
0:53:09 > 0:53:11- NEWS REPORTER: - 13 different police forces
0:53:11 > 0:53:13are now dealing with a catalogue of complaints
0:53:13 > 0:53:15against the late Sir Jimmy Savile,
0:53:15 > 0:53:17including the shocking allegation
0:53:17 > 0:53:20that the TV star molested a brain-damaged girl
0:53:20 > 0:53:22at the Leeds General Infirmary...
0:53:22 > 0:53:24When everything was revealed,
0:53:24 > 0:53:27I realised that I'd had a lucky escape.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33And then, of course, I sent yet another message to Radio Leeds
0:53:33 > 0:53:35to say, "Well, actually, I sent a message to say
0:53:35 > 0:53:38"that he tested my eyes, but here's the full story,"
0:53:38 > 0:53:40and within half an hour,
0:53:40 > 0:53:42they'd sent a reporter up to my work.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50It's made me feel worse now than it did 40-odd years ago.
0:53:50 > 0:53:53- Oh, I'm sorry. - No, no, I can live with it.
0:53:53 > 0:53:56It just makes you think.
0:53:58 > 0:54:02It had taken Susan nearly 40 years to acknowledge to herself
0:54:02 > 0:54:04that what had taken place was an assault.
0:54:07 > 0:54:11It was as though Jimmy Savile's sense of personality and entitlement
0:54:11 > 0:54:12had been so strong in life
0:54:12 > 0:54:15that she hadn't felt permitted to see her experience
0:54:15 > 0:54:17for what it was.
0:54:26 > 0:54:29- TV:- This has been one of the most important inquiries
0:54:29 > 0:54:31in the history of this organisation.
0:54:33 > 0:54:38What happened was profoundly wrong.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40It should never have started,
0:54:40 > 0:54:43it should certainly have been stopped.
0:54:43 > 0:54:47Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49It can never be excused.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53When Dame Janet Smith published her report
0:54:53 > 0:54:55into the BBC's role in the Savile affair,
0:54:55 > 0:54:58among the many victims interviewed were the two women
0:54:58 > 0:55:02who had written me a letter in 2000 and who I'd met for coffee.
0:55:03 > 0:55:06'They'd come forward amid the tsunami of revelations
0:55:06 > 0:55:11'to say that their relations with Jimmy Savile had been abusive.'
0:55:11 > 0:55:15That was sort of the closest I got to getting the truth.
0:55:15 > 0:55:17But at the time that I met them,
0:55:17 > 0:55:20they were still describing themselves as his friends.
0:55:20 > 0:55:25But I feel as though if they'd been more able to speak...
0:55:25 > 0:55:28speak out that time,
0:55:28 > 0:55:32I could have done more to bring out the truth while he was alive.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38It was upsetting to realise that I'd actually met two victims
0:55:38 > 0:55:41while Jimmy Savile was still alive.
0:55:41 > 0:55:45I wondered whether if I'd handled the encounter in a different way,
0:55:45 > 0:55:48they might have felt able to say more
0:55:48 > 0:55:51or whether they simply hadn't been ready,
0:55:51 > 0:55:55intimidated by the perception of his power.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15Once he'd been unmasked,
0:56:15 > 0:56:19the rumours that had circulated around Jimmy Savile in life
0:56:19 > 0:56:21took on a whole new gravity.
0:56:26 > 0:56:28I tried to think where I'd heard the rumours
0:56:28 > 0:56:31and traced one back through my mum to my aunt,
0:56:31 > 0:56:33who worked at the Mail On Sunday.
0:56:38 > 0:56:43She told me she'd heard it from a co-worker called Angela Levin.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49- Hi, Angela. Louis.- Hello.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51How do you do? Nice to meet you.
0:56:51 > 0:56:53- Mind if I join you?- Please.
0:56:55 > 0:56:58So, you heard that there was an interest
0:56:58 > 0:57:03in disabled youngsters when?
0:57:03 > 0:57:06- What year was that? - In the mid-'80s.
0:57:06 > 0:57:09When you did your first profile?
0:57:09 > 0:57:12Well, I found him despicable and I found him a bully
0:57:12 > 0:57:15and I found him a control freak.
0:57:16 > 0:57:21He would, I was told anonymously by one nurse,
0:57:21 > 0:57:26play with little girls who were paralysed from the waist down.
0:57:27 > 0:57:30I mean, it seems odd that in a newspaper
0:57:30 > 0:57:35where you have the resources to get that story out there
0:57:35 > 0:57:37and do something about it,
0:57:37 > 0:57:39that if you believed it,
0:57:39 > 0:57:43that you couldn't have somehow done something?
0:57:43 > 0:57:46Well, I think it wasn't the case that if you believed it,
0:57:46 > 0:57:49you could do it, because the libel laws were very strong.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51He was also extremely connected.
0:57:51 > 0:57:53He raised £30 million,
0:57:53 > 0:57:56he could threaten to not raise another penny.
0:57:56 > 0:58:00You'd have to be a very brave paper to do that.
0:58:02 > 0:58:07Let me present a kind of alternate reality scenario to you,
0:58:07 > 0:58:09that a nurse tells you
0:58:09 > 0:58:12that Jimmy Savile comes to visit her hospital,
0:58:12 > 0:58:15and he molests disabled girls, right?
0:58:15 > 0:58:18Which is sort of... That's what she told you, is that right?
0:58:18 > 0:58:22And then you then feed that back to the investigations team,
0:58:22 > 0:58:25or some senior people at the Mail,
0:58:25 > 0:58:28and they go to work attempting to substantiate that,
0:58:28 > 0:58:30and he's caught,
0:58:30 > 0:58:33and then maybe even hundreds of victims
0:58:33 > 0:58:36are prevented from ever being molested.
0:58:36 > 0:58:40It's not a scenario that ever happened.
0:58:40 > 0:58:43I don't think I went back and told the investigations team.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45No, but I'm saying, if you had, if you'd blown the whistle...
0:58:45 > 0:58:47Are you trying to blame this on me?!
0:58:47 > 0:58:49No, no, I'm just trying to, in a sense...
0:58:49 > 0:58:51I mean, there were lots of people...
0:58:51 > 0:58:53..see if there was more we could have done.
0:58:53 > 0:58:57We as a society are attempting to learn from what's happened.
0:58:57 > 0:59:01Yes, I think you mustn't be overwhelmed by someone's fame,
0:59:01 > 0:59:04but I think that nobody is, in the same way, you know.
0:59:04 > 0:59:08He was very, very famous, he had very, very good connections,
0:59:08 > 0:59:11he raised a load of money for charity.
0:59:11 > 0:59:15And I think that's very intimidating.
0:59:15 > 0:59:18He knew people in high places.
0:59:21 > 0:59:23Jimmy Savile's power had created
0:59:23 > 0:59:26an aura of invulnerability...
0:59:28 > 0:59:32..so strong that, even now, after all the revelations,
0:59:32 > 0:59:35there are still those under its influence...
0:59:36 > 0:59:40..as I had discovered when I'd interviewed Janet Cope.
0:59:43 > 0:59:45This is my wedding certificate,
0:59:45 > 0:59:47and it's got Jimmy Savile on it, look.
0:59:47 > 0:59:51- Oh, yeah. "In the presence of..." - And that's...
0:59:51 > 0:59:53That's a good photo.
0:59:53 > 0:59:55That's outside the registry office,
0:59:55 > 0:59:58cos I had to start the ball rolling in the registry office.
0:59:58 > 1:00:01And then we went to Stoke Mandeville church, at the hospital.
1:00:01 > 1:00:04Basically, he gave you away, is that right?
1:00:04 > 1:00:06- He did indeed.- As a father normally would?
1:00:06 > 1:00:09Yeah, but I didn't have any relatives,
1:00:09 > 1:00:11so Jim was my nearest and dearest,
1:00:11 > 1:00:15so I asked him if he would give me away, and he said yes. Ready?
1:00:15 > 1:00:16Ready.
1:00:16 > 1:00:17TAPE RECORDER CLICKS
1:00:17 > 1:00:20APPLAUSE
1:00:20 > 1:00:23'Today and days like this
1:00:23 > 1:00:27'I think enrich the lives of human beings.
1:00:27 > 1:00:32'When we get together on a day like today, it lifts us all.
1:00:32 > 1:00:35'Thank you for coming, and God bless the both of you.'
1:00:35 > 1:00:37APPLAUSE
1:00:43 > 1:00:46Jim is now lying in an unmarked grave
1:00:46 > 1:00:49on a hill in Yorkshire, and he's...
1:00:49 > 1:00:51He's not recognised any more
1:00:51 > 1:00:55as being the good, good person that he was.
1:00:55 > 1:00:59I don't know whether you've seen it all, but it's made my hair curl.
1:00:59 > 1:01:02Do you mean things that came out after he died
1:01:02 > 1:01:05- about his activities? - Yeah, that people made up. Yeah.
1:01:05 > 1:01:08- Which he didn't do. - Which you don't believe?
1:01:08 > 1:01:09No, I don't believe it.
1:01:09 > 1:01:13It was impossible for him to do many of the things
1:01:13 > 1:01:15that he was accused of.
1:01:15 > 1:01:18You've read the Stoke Mandeville report.
1:01:18 > 1:01:21- Yeah, this one, yeah.- And you didn't find them persuasive?
1:01:21 > 1:01:26Many of these claims from Jim are going back to the '60s.
1:01:26 > 1:01:29I mean, I was grateful if somebody gave me a pat on the bum,
1:01:29 > 1:01:31but you can't apply the same rules,
1:01:31 > 1:01:35because it was a different era, it was just different.
1:01:35 > 1:01:37It's important to remember
1:01:37 > 1:01:40that many of the allegations and the encounters
1:01:40 > 1:01:45that are described are much more serious than a pat on the bum.
1:01:45 > 1:01:47Go on, then, give me one.
1:01:47 > 1:01:51Girls aged between 10 and 14
1:01:51 > 1:01:55in which he puts his hand down
1:01:55 > 1:01:58and touches them intimately, you know,
1:01:58 > 1:02:01- in a totally unwelcome... - I doubt it, I doubt it.
1:02:10 > 1:02:12Do you think it's possible
1:02:12 > 1:02:14that because of your close association with him
1:02:14 > 1:02:21for so many years, that you've slightly lost your objectivity?
1:02:23 > 1:02:25Do you think that's possible?
1:02:27 > 1:02:28No.
1:02:28 > 1:02:31No. Definitely not, I don't think so.
1:02:32 > 1:02:34What makes you ask that?
1:02:38 > 1:02:42The discovery of Jimmy Savile's offences has meant that
1:02:42 > 1:02:45anyone who knew him has the task of reappraising
1:02:45 > 1:02:47that part of their life.
1:02:47 > 1:02:50Shall I put a finger on the knot?
1:02:50 > 1:02:53INDISTINCT CONVERSATION
1:02:53 > 1:02:56As I look back at rushes from my documentary,
1:02:56 > 1:02:59I'm caught between a sense of missed clues
1:02:59 > 1:03:03and an awareness of the distorting power of hindsight.
1:03:05 > 1:03:08And I think how amazing it is
1:03:08 > 1:03:11to realise he knows he's being recorded.
1:03:11 > 1:03:15Now, then, hey! Hey, hey, hey, wonderful. Very good, very good.
1:03:15 > 1:03:17Jimmy...
1:03:17 > 1:03:19What was going on there?
1:03:19 > 1:03:22Well, what was going on there is called opportunity.
1:03:22 > 1:03:24And I'm a great opportunist.
1:03:24 > 1:03:28And if I see a lady in distress, scantily clad,
1:03:28 > 1:03:32I'm the first to offer my finger to put on the knot.
1:03:32 > 1:03:34- See you in the morn.- OK.
1:03:34 > 1:03:35- Goodnight.- Night.
1:03:35 > 1:03:39In fact, in all the hours of footage I've seen of Jimmy Savile,
1:03:39 > 1:03:41there is only one section I know of
1:03:41 > 1:03:45in which he doesn't appear to realise he's on camera -
1:03:45 > 1:03:48when the director of my original documentary taped him
1:03:48 > 1:03:50after I'd gone to bed.
1:03:50 > 1:03:52In the dance halls, I invented zero tolerance.
1:03:52 > 1:03:55I wouldn't stand for any nonsense whatsoever, ever.
1:03:55 > 1:03:57Ever, ever, ever.
1:03:57 > 1:04:01I was always in trouble with the law for being heavy-handed, always,
1:04:01 > 1:04:03but I couldn't care less about that.
1:04:03 > 1:04:05Ejecting people who were mucking about?
1:04:05 > 1:04:08No, I never threw anybody out. Tied 'em up and put 'em
1:04:08 > 1:04:09down in the bloody boiler house
1:04:09 > 1:04:13until I was ready for 'em - two o'clock in the fucking morning.
1:04:13 > 1:04:14They'd plead to get out!
1:04:14 > 1:04:17At the time, this material was shocking because it felt
1:04:17 > 1:04:20so unlike the Jimmy Savile most of us knew.
1:04:20 > 1:04:22You know, if a copper came and said,
1:04:22 > 1:04:26"You was a bit heavy with that kid," or those two guys, whatever,
1:04:26 > 1:04:28I'd say, "Your daughter comes in here.
1:04:28 > 1:04:31"She's 16, she's not supposed to come into town,
1:04:31 > 1:04:33"but she does and she comes here.
1:04:33 > 1:04:35"I presume you'd like me to look after her.
1:04:35 > 1:04:38"If you don't want me to look after her, tell me
1:04:38 > 1:04:40"and I'll let them dirty slags do what they want to her."
1:04:40 > 1:04:41"All right, Jim, all right."
1:04:41 > 1:04:44"All right, then. Don't give me a fucking hard time, then."
1:04:44 > 1:04:46"Yeah, you're right,
1:04:46 > 1:04:48"you didn't give the bastard half enough, I'll tell you, Jim."
1:04:48 > 1:04:51"Thank you, goodbye." I never got nicked.
1:04:51 > 1:04:53HE CHUCKLES
1:04:53 > 1:04:57- And I've never altered.- No. - I've got a zero tolerance, me.
1:05:01 > 1:05:05Now it feels like one of the only examples we have on film
1:05:05 > 1:05:07of Jimmy Savile behind the scenes.
1:05:11 > 1:05:14The Jimmy Savile his victims knew.
1:05:22 > 1:05:24- Hello.- Hello!- Are you Sam?- I am Sam.
1:05:24 > 1:05:26- Louis. How are you doing? - I'm good, thank you.
1:05:26 > 1:05:29- Nice to meet you.- And you. - Shall I take my shoes off?
1:05:29 > 1:05:33Our paths crossed because we used to go to church
1:05:33 > 1:05:38on a Saturday evening, which is where he used to go.
1:05:38 > 1:05:41Because that was on the hospital premises.
1:05:41 > 1:05:43It was the Stoke Mandeville chapel,
1:05:43 > 1:05:45- in effect.- Yeah.
1:05:45 > 1:05:50My job at church was to take the collection plate around.
1:05:50 > 1:05:55There was a little presbytery room, and that's where I used to go
1:05:55 > 1:05:56and get my collection plate.
1:05:56 > 1:05:59And he used to go and stand in there.
1:05:59 > 1:06:01So I'd go in, I'd get the plate,
1:06:01 > 1:06:04which would always be behind Jimmy Savile.
1:06:04 > 1:06:07So I always had to reach to get the plate.
1:06:08 > 1:06:12And then... And then he would do whatever he wanted to do.
1:06:12 > 1:06:16- While the service was going on... - Mm.- ..he'd be back there...
1:06:16 > 1:06:19The whole time. He would never sit with the congregation,
1:06:19 > 1:06:22he would always be in the back room.
1:06:22 > 1:06:27- Now, how old were you? - That was about 11.
1:06:27 > 1:06:31Because my grandad had stopped, um...
1:06:31 > 1:06:34had had to stop abusing me about that time,
1:06:34 > 1:06:37because we moved to a different house.
1:06:37 > 1:06:41How old had you been when your grandfather began molesting you?
1:06:41 > 1:06:43From about two.
1:06:44 > 1:06:46I was in hospital a lot.
1:06:46 > 1:06:49- For as long as you can remember, in other words.- Always, yeah.
1:06:49 > 1:06:50Always.
1:06:50 > 1:06:52It was easy for Jimmy Savile.
1:06:52 > 1:06:56What he was doing was no different from what, you know,
1:06:56 > 1:06:59had happened all my life, so...
1:07:01 > 1:07:04He picked really easily and well.
1:07:04 > 1:07:07Are you OK? I'm just aware that it's quite distressing to...
1:07:07 > 1:07:11It's quite... I mean, it's a horrible thing to...
1:07:11 > 1:07:14- We've heard...- ..hear about. - We've...
1:07:14 > 1:07:15It's quite nice, actually,
1:07:15 > 1:07:18that Mum has got brave enough recently
1:07:18 > 1:07:22to be able to do this, because then we're grown-ups, too.
1:07:22 > 1:07:23So...
1:07:23 > 1:07:27And Mum's our responsibility as much as we are hers, so...
1:07:27 > 1:07:30Are you OK to go into a little more detail?
1:07:30 > 1:07:34Yeah, as long as you're OK, because I'm going to say it as it is.
1:07:34 > 1:07:37- Yes, please.- I'm not going to make anything sound nice,
1:07:37 > 1:07:40or...or I'm not going to soften anything.
1:07:40 > 1:07:42I'm going to say the acts.
1:07:42 > 1:07:45- Nobody really wants to hear them facts...- No.- Hmm.
1:07:45 > 1:07:47And they're real facts.
1:07:47 > 1:07:50I used to go in there, there were times when...
1:07:50 > 1:07:53Because I didn't have my period for a long...
1:07:53 > 1:07:56You know, I was quite late. So what I used to try and do
1:07:56 > 1:07:58to keep myself safe to go to church
1:07:58 > 1:08:01was, my oldest sister had Tampaxes,
1:08:01 > 1:08:06so I used to force the Tampaxes into myself to try and...
1:08:08 > 1:08:10..stop...
1:08:10 > 1:08:13try and protect myself.
1:08:13 > 1:08:17And I used to wear lots of pairs of knickers,
1:08:17 > 1:08:19just to make it harder.
1:08:21 > 1:08:26Sometimes he used to put his hands into my mouth, erm...
1:08:27 > 1:08:30..while he was doing everything else,
1:08:30 > 1:08:33touching wherever he wanted to touch.
1:08:33 > 1:08:37I just used to think, "Just hurry up that bit of the service,"
1:08:37 > 1:08:39so I could come out of the room.
1:08:39 > 1:08:42But then I knew I had to go back in the room.
1:08:43 > 1:08:45You know, I never looked up,
1:08:45 > 1:08:50I never said to him, "Don't," because I knew he could.
1:08:52 > 1:08:54I think paedophiles in general,
1:08:54 > 1:08:56but especially Jimmy Savile,
1:08:56 > 1:08:59he had a sort of instinct for vulnerability.
1:08:59 > 1:09:02I think all paedophiles know.
1:09:03 > 1:09:06I think they all know, they're so clever.
1:09:06 > 1:09:09I was really backward as a child.
1:09:09 > 1:09:14My grandad was the one who'd come and fight for me in school.
1:09:14 > 1:09:18Fight for me when teachers would hit my head off a wall and things,
1:09:18 > 1:09:21he would be the one to come and fight for me.
1:09:21 > 1:09:24So it was so confusing, because that person
1:09:24 > 1:09:29who set me up for everything was also my saviour.
1:09:29 > 1:09:31All wrapped into one person.
1:09:35 > 1:09:39I have lovely memories of my grandad,
1:09:39 > 1:09:42which everybody else really struggles with,
1:09:42 > 1:09:44because he took time out with me... a lot.
1:09:44 > 1:09:49Now, I know now why he took his time out,
1:09:49 > 1:09:53but if I'm to make that person a whole one person,
1:09:53 > 1:09:57then I'm really in the trouble, because I've got no...
1:10:01 > 1:10:04Where does your nice bit ever be?
1:10:06 > 1:10:08And you can't do that,
1:10:08 > 1:10:13you can't have a whole childhood of horrible stuff.
1:10:16 > 1:10:20So I take the good bits out because it's easier to do that.
1:10:20 > 1:10:23I think... I understand perfectly what you mean,
1:10:23 > 1:10:27- and I feel as though it's OK to have the nice bits.- Yeah.
1:10:27 > 1:10:30You've got to take something somewhere.
1:10:30 > 1:10:35Even people who do evil things do good things from time to time.
1:10:35 > 1:10:38- Yeah.- It doesn't make them good people.- Yeah.
1:10:38 > 1:10:42I grapple with what Jimmy Savile did -
1:10:42 > 1:10:46he molested, raped, abused hundreds of people -
1:10:46 > 1:10:50and at the same time, he was someone who, when he was alive,
1:10:50 > 1:10:54I called a friend, which I still struggle with.
1:10:54 > 1:10:57Do you feel like you were groomed?
1:11:00 > 1:11:03I think "groomed" is maybe too big a word
1:11:03 > 1:11:06for what he did to me, because, um...
1:11:08 > 1:11:11..he didn't abuse me, he didn't abuse...
1:11:11 > 1:11:14But mentally groomed, mentally given...
1:11:14 > 1:11:18He mugged you off by giving you what he wanted to give you,
1:11:18 > 1:11:21and did you believe what he gave you?
1:11:21 > 1:11:25I believed parts of it. I thought he was a...
1:11:25 > 1:11:28I thought he was an enigmatic person,
1:11:28 > 1:11:31that he had a secretive... I knew there was a secret there,
1:11:31 > 1:11:33I just didn't know exactly what the secret was.
1:11:33 > 1:11:37And then I feel a bit ashamed, now knowing what we know.
1:11:37 > 1:11:39I feel as though, um...
1:11:41 > 1:11:44- You didn't do the right thing. - Well, I don't...
1:11:44 > 1:11:47I want to stand up and say that I don't really regret that,
1:11:47 > 1:11:49in the sense that I don't want
1:11:49 > 1:11:52to say that I've anything to feel ashamed of,
1:11:52 > 1:11:55- in a sense, because... - But you haven't, have you?
1:11:55 > 1:11:56..I didn't see anything.
1:11:56 > 1:11:59I accept that I was one of many people who failed
1:11:59 > 1:12:03- to see what he was about. - How did you fail to see that?
1:12:03 > 1:12:08Because even then, you looked at him, you smelt him.
1:12:08 > 1:12:13His mannerisms, to me, were all really obvious.
1:12:15 > 1:12:17- Perhaps that's just because you know.- Yeah.
1:12:17 > 1:12:19It's like they say about quizzes -
1:12:19 > 1:12:22- it's only obvious if you know the answer.- Yeah.
1:12:34 > 1:12:36What are you doing here?
1:12:36 > 1:12:37Straight punter!
1:12:37 > 1:12:39Boring.
1:12:39 > 1:12:41Don't do booze, don't do drugs,
1:12:41 > 1:12:46don't do none of them foolish things that I see on your programmes.
1:12:46 > 1:12:49However, I suppose it's nice to do
1:12:49 > 1:12:51somebody that's a bit straight for a change.
1:12:51 > 1:12:54- Yeah.- You'll have your work cut out being interesting.
1:12:54 > 1:12:59Yeah. No, I know... Do you really regard yourself as normal?
1:12:59 > 1:13:03- No. I regard myself as odd.- Yeah. - I think I'm odd.
1:13:06 > 1:13:09It's sometimes said that monsters don't get close to children -
1:13:09 > 1:13:11nice men do.
1:13:15 > 1:13:18- The altar. That's the alter there. - Why do you call it the altar?
1:13:18 > 1:13:20Because I go to sleep in it and I smile
1:13:20 > 1:13:23- and it's nice to be there.- Yeah.
1:13:23 > 1:13:25That doesn't sound like an altar to me.
1:13:25 > 1:13:27- It just sounds like one to me. - Really?- Yes.
1:13:29 > 1:13:33Now we know the truth about Jimmy Savile, it all seems so clear.
1:13:35 > 1:13:37- Give 'em a wave, I want to see... - No, no, in a minute.- Why?
1:13:37 > 1:13:39I'll tell you when to give them a wave.
1:13:39 > 1:13:41Why can't we give them a wave now?
1:13:41 > 1:13:44Leave it to me. Instinct tells me when to carry on.
1:13:44 > 1:13:46I am the archetypal carry-er on-er.
1:13:46 > 1:13:49We know how we're doing.
1:13:50 > 1:13:55But in his time, he charmed royalty and prime ministers,
1:13:55 > 1:13:59and millions of us who listened to him on the radio
1:13:59 > 1:14:01and watched him on TV.
1:14:03 > 1:14:06Cheers. That's really it. Have we forgotten anything?
1:14:06 > 1:14:09Jangle, jangle, jewellery, jewellery.
1:14:09 > 1:14:11JIMMY CHUCKLES
1:14:11 > 1:14:13Excellent.
1:14:14 > 1:14:16And so, to understand his crimes,
1:14:16 > 1:14:20we should also remember how we were beguiled.