0:00:02 > 0:00:04There are too many people in the country. It needs to stop now.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06Immigration has brought many benefits.
0:00:06 > 0:00:08As far as I'm concerned, we're only lodgers now.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10It's got overcrowded...
0:00:10 > 0:00:12in the past five years.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16As immigration reaches record levels, public opinion has
0:00:16 > 0:00:21never been so divided over Britain's nearly eight million immigrants.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25A lot of people come here with no INTENTION of integrating
0:00:25 > 0:00:27and I don't think that that's acceptable.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31I'm usually the only English white person on the bus.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35There's not enough services for the people that are here.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38So we've brought people of both sides of the debate together -
0:00:38 > 0:00:40British-born and immigrants.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42In the first part of our experiment,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46they explore the impact of immigration on employment...
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Lads come in from Eastern Europe and, um, undercut us
0:00:50 > 0:00:51and basically take our jobs.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56- They looked at housing...- So, it's a big house. We are 20 to live here.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58..and explored British culture.
0:00:58 > 0:00:59It's going to change
0:00:59 > 0:01:02and I don't necessarily feel that that's a good thing.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06Now, they'll tackle immigration's impact on schooling.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10If I had the choice, I wouldn't send my children to a school as diverse as this.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12They'll look at the NHS...
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Do you have any idea of the cost of this operation?
0:01:15 > 0:01:16..issues around religion...
0:01:16 > 0:01:18I won't ask you to pray, I don't want you to bow,
0:01:18 > 0:01:22- I don't want you to do anything that you're not comfortable with. - We have differences.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25We are different in the way that we pray, we are different.
0:01:25 > 0:01:26You know, these are differences.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29..and they'll delve deeper into integration.
0:01:29 > 0:01:34I have a big issue with people who teach their children
0:01:34 > 0:01:37- another language as a first language.- I disagree with that.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41So now Margaret and I have got THE crunch question.
0:01:41 > 0:01:46'By the end, will they decide the immigrants are a gain or a drain?'
0:01:56 > 0:02:00- 'I'm Nick Hewer.' - 'And I'm Margaret Mountford.'
0:02:00 > 0:02:04'In our lifetimes, immigration in Britain has changed dramatically,
0:02:04 > 0:02:07'and for some, the increase in numbers is causing concern.'
0:02:08 > 0:02:11It seems, Margaret, that the papers are crammed full of stories
0:02:11 > 0:02:15and editorials about immigration, it's a national talking point.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19How it affects jobs, public services, communities.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22And there is no doubt that the number of people coming to
0:02:22 > 0:02:26this country has increased hugely over the last few years.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29It will be interesting to see what these pairings make of the effect
0:02:29 > 0:02:33of immigration on public services, things like the NHS and schools.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37London's always had more immigration than
0:02:37 > 0:02:38the rest of Britain,
0:02:38 > 0:02:43and today a third of the capital's population was born outside the UK.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46Mother of two Kiran is British-born.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48Her parents came from India in the '60s.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51She thinks immigration should be reduced.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54When I was growing up in Hounslow, it was very different to
0:02:54 > 0:02:56what it is at the moment.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00There's always been sort of a huge Punjabi
0:03:00 > 0:03:03and Indian population around.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08But the way it is at the moment now, just too many immigrants!
0:03:08 > 0:03:09It essentially is!
0:03:11 > 0:03:13Kiran's lived her whole life in Hounslow,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16concerned the local schools aren't integrated enough.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18She's decided it's time to move.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22What I find interesting is why are people not wanting to integrate
0:03:22 > 0:03:25so much into British society.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27What are they afraid of exactly?
0:03:27 > 0:03:29And if they ARE so afraid,
0:03:29 > 0:03:33then really is this the place for you to be?
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Kiran is moving to a part of London
0:03:35 > 0:03:39where only 17% of the population is foreign-born,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41compared to 43% in Hounslow.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45- How are you? Margaret.- Hi, Margaret. I'm Kiran. Nice to meet you.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51- So...?- You're moving. What made you decide to do that?
0:03:51 > 0:03:54It's a very, very different place to where I grew up.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56It's changed ever so much now.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00You've got children. Was that one of the reasons you wanted to move?
0:04:00 > 0:04:01That's primarily the reason.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03The house that we've just moved from, there's
0:04:03 > 0:04:07a school right opposite. According to OFSTED, it's good.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10I thought, that may be the case, but if we look at the statistics,
0:04:10 > 0:04:11there are 67%, I think,
0:04:11 > 0:04:14non-English-speaking children that go there.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17And I found that the mums there were all just, you know,
0:04:17 > 0:04:19talking in their own language in a corner
0:04:19 > 0:04:21and they weren't wanting to integrate with me.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26But when you moved here as a child, were there mostly
0:04:26 > 0:04:29other Indian families, or families of Indian origin living around?
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Yeah, there were. But I think the difference is people
0:04:32 > 0:04:34that were coming into the area then were here to stay.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38There isn't the kind of effort that I saw my parents making
0:04:38 > 0:04:40to integrate into society.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42My father, when he initially came to this country,
0:04:42 > 0:04:45trying so hard to integrate that he cut his hair,
0:04:45 > 0:04:48which for a Sikh is a huge... is a huge thing,
0:04:48 > 0:04:51and shaved his beard.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55You know, we were encouraged to respect British values.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58We were encouraged to go out there and to mix,
0:04:58 > 0:05:03but at the same time took us to the gurdwara to pray,
0:05:03 > 0:05:06and taught us how to read and write and speak Punjabi.
0:05:06 > 0:05:14- So, integrate, but never abandon your culture, your language, literature.- Absolutely.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17I think the thing is, you know, when Dad came, right,
0:05:17 > 0:05:18he was in the sense unusual
0:05:18 > 0:05:23and had to fit in, because that was the safest and the best thing to do.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26But somebody now poling in, they're congregating in the same
0:05:26 > 0:05:29sort of areas and they're swimming in their own pond.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Why should they want to go and get into a bigger pond
0:05:32 > 0:05:35when they're very happy in the small pond?
0:05:36 > 0:05:40Kiran will be paired up with Somali immigrant Mohammed Haji who
0:05:40 > 0:05:43lives in Southall, West London.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48We are glad. We're really grateful, you know, that we have been looked after.
0:05:48 > 0:05:54That our children have been taken to school and they are getting free education.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57We are happy for that and we are grateful for the British.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Mohammed fled Somalia's civil war 21 years ago
0:06:01 > 0:06:04and was given political asylum in France.
0:06:04 > 0:06:11He came to the UK in 2004 as an EU migrant to be closer to his wife's family.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14We need to keep our culture.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16We need to practise our religion.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20We need to, at the same time, respect other communities
0:06:20 > 0:06:24and we expect them to respect our culture as well.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27He lives with his wife and eight children in a five bedroom
0:06:27 > 0:06:32privately rented house, paid for by housing benefit and his own savings.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35The British community think that we have come here to collect
0:06:35 > 0:06:39benefit, that we have come here to become parasites into the community.
0:06:39 > 0:06:40It is not that way.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45Kiran wants to find out what efforts Mohammed is making
0:06:45 > 0:06:46to integrate into Britain.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49I'm hoping that there will be a lot of debate,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52I'm hoping that this experience will be a real eye-opener
0:06:52 > 0:06:56and I'll get to learn a lot about how a different culture lives
0:06:56 > 0:06:59and what their experiences are and what brings them here.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03- Do you have lots of...? Are you friends with lots of the neighbours around here?- Yes.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06My responsibility is for my community,
0:07:06 > 0:07:07which is the Somali community,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10which I believe is my bigger family.
0:07:10 > 0:07:15The second responsibility is... is to make sure that we
0:07:15 > 0:07:18retain our culture. We keep our religion and my children follow.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21What we don't like is... what assimilation means,
0:07:21 > 0:07:25being taken over and losing our culture and our religion.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29We won't accept the bad parts of the British culture, we won't take it.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33- So what do you...class as bad? - For example, in our culture,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36alcohol is not part of our culture.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40Those who practice are not really welcome.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44We have come here, not looking for a country, but looking
0:07:44 > 0:07:49for a safe haven for our children while the civil war is going on.
0:07:49 > 0:07:53Do you think you would go back there and take the children back one day?
0:07:53 > 0:07:59If there is lasting peace in Somalia tomorrow, we will be all going back.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03I don't think from my first visit to Mr Haji's house,
0:08:03 > 0:08:09that I could say fairly that they have integrated into British society.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11They're still very traditional.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14I think only time will tell, really, once I've actually seen them
0:08:14 > 0:08:18in action, how integrated into society they really are.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25Kiran has come to see what Mohammed does in his job as chairman
0:08:25 > 0:08:28- of the Somali Elders Organisation. - Good morning.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31As well as helping Somalis, the organisation provides advice
0:08:31 > 0:08:36and English language classes to the wider immigrant community.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40He volunteers here for 40 hours a week.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42Let me introduce you to Sara. Sara is here today.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45She has come out of the class in order for me
0:08:45 > 0:08:49to assist her in relation to her housing issues.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52- HE SPEAKS IN SOMALI - What's your problem today?
0:08:53 > 0:08:55SHE SPEAKS IN SOMALI
0:08:57 > 0:09:00There is a leakage, water coming down from the roof.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02It is damp everywhere.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06That has affected the health of her children as well.
0:09:06 > 0:09:11So we need to find her a house, slightly bigger and at least,
0:09:11 > 0:09:14you know, of a better condition.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16- She's not working? - She's started to be self-employed.
0:09:16 > 0:09:21She makes, cooks samosas and sells them.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Are you entitled to any benefits or...?
0:09:23 > 0:09:26She only gets child benefit and child tax credit
0:09:26 > 0:09:29in addition to that. No other income from another source.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36She has no husband or partner.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39She has no cousins, she has no brothers, no sisters.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43No, you know, immediate family to turn to for assistance.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46- Is she Somalian as well? - She is a Somali, yes.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48- How long has she been here? - She was here...
0:09:48 > 0:09:50THEY CONVERSE IN SOMALI
0:09:50 > 0:09:51Two years.
0:09:51 > 0:09:57I don't see that the community here is wanting to come here to
0:09:57 > 0:09:59better themselves. They are coming here to get what they can.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03I don't think that they're interested in what the British
0:10:03 > 0:10:06people need or what...
0:10:06 > 0:10:10what they can do to help us.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15My ancestors were in the wars, fought for Britain, you know?
0:10:15 > 0:10:21We've got medals in the family awarded, you know... to us.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23And...
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Free-for-all, I think, yeah.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31Free-for-all is how I would sum it up at the moment, because
0:10:31 > 0:10:33I'm a little bit mixed emotions, to be fair.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40In Ilford, north-east London, retired couple Ted and Margaret are
0:10:40 > 0:10:44also concerned about the number of immigrants to move into their area.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49We've been here 40-odd years. It's changed dramatically.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51When we first moved here,
0:10:51 > 0:10:55the road was predominantly indigenous white people.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59I think we're at saturation point. There's not been enough integration.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01There's no part for us here.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05Ted and Margaret have been paired with Rahat and Naseem from Pakistan,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09who live just five minutes away and run a language school.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Last time, Ted and Margaret showed them
0:11:12 > 0:11:14how immigration has changed Ilford.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19Before, this would have been all English shops.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22There was bakers, greengrocers.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25It's really hard for us to listen to this conversation
0:11:25 > 0:11:29from the natives, who has the first right to live in this country.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33Now Ted and Margaret want to find out more about why
0:11:33 > 0:11:36Rahat and Naseem came to Britain.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38I'm interested to know what life,
0:11:38 > 0:11:42what your life would be like if you were back in Pakistan.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45What is life like over there?
0:11:45 > 0:11:47Really fantastic life indeed,
0:11:47 > 0:11:51because I was working in the textile sector.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56I had a chef, gardener, cleaner,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59all on the company payroll.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02What is the advantage to you to come to England, then?
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Well, my husband's eyesight.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09He has a disease which is not treatable in Pakistan.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12And will your husband get the treatment that he requires
0:12:12 > 0:12:15- on the National Health here? - Yes, yes.- For free?
0:12:15 > 0:12:20- You don't have to pay?- Yeah, we have to pay for the medicine.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22We don't have recourse to the public funds,
0:12:22 > 0:12:24but NHS services are free for us, yes.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28Oh! Will your condition improve?
0:12:28 > 0:12:33You have to be on medication till the life.
0:12:33 > 0:12:41It doesn't seem right that funds should be used for this particular reason.
0:12:41 > 0:12:47I think that we've got other situations
0:12:47 > 0:12:50where the money could be better spent, especially if
0:12:50 > 0:12:53people haven't put into the system,
0:12:53 > 0:12:57I think that's the big grudge that people have,
0:12:57 > 0:13:02is that we've paid in and other people are taking out.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05Worried about the drain on the NHS,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08Ted and Margaret are on their way to meet with Rahat.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12I wondered whether there is just a blank cheque,
0:13:12 > 0:13:17where once they're allowed into the country to be spent on them,
0:13:17 > 0:13:20or is there a restriction of some sort?
0:13:20 > 0:13:22For people coming into the country,
0:13:22 > 0:13:29it does seem a bit unfair that they become entitled to use
0:13:29 > 0:13:35our system when they haven't paid taxes or have paid very little tax.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40In Pakistan, how does the medical system work there?
0:13:40 > 0:13:45Is it private or is there something akin to our National Health in Pakistan?
0:13:45 > 0:13:49There is a national health system,
0:13:49 > 0:13:54but, you know, the quality of service
0:13:54 > 0:13:57and the quality of treatment is...
0:13:57 > 0:14:01I don't know what I should say...
0:14:01 > 0:14:04it is absolutely, absolutely rubbish.
0:14:04 > 0:14:09I think the treatment should be perhaps contribution-based.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13That would appease some of the people in the country, as far
0:14:13 > 0:14:18as immigration goes, and work out a contribution-based system
0:14:18 > 0:14:23so that maybe a good chunk of your treatment would be paid,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25but you may have to pay the balance.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29I think that might be an idea which might make some people happier.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32- Yes.- Do you see my idea?
0:14:32 > 0:14:36It's OK. I agree with your idea.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41It was the feeling of the country in general that, you know,
0:14:41 > 0:14:47the feeling is about people coming in, so that was the point.
0:14:47 > 0:14:53Yes, we have the facility to have a treatment
0:14:53 > 0:14:58if it is within the hospital that is free of charge,
0:14:58 > 0:15:03but the one thing is that we are paying taxes.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05The actual treatment, the operations,
0:15:05 > 0:15:09are carried out by the National Health at no cost,
0:15:09 > 0:15:16and I do wonder how much that fee for the operation and the after-care,
0:15:16 > 0:15:20the nursing after-care, will cost the National Health?
0:15:20 > 0:15:24It's not just the NHS that some feel is under pressure.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29Many believe immigration also has an impact on Britain's education system.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33We are going to the school where my younger son attends.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Seven of Mohammed's children are still in education.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40The youngest, 12-year-old Liban,
0:15:40 > 0:15:44is at a secondary school rated good by OFSTED.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46This is Liban's class, 80H
0:15:46 > 0:15:49and Mr Jobe, who's teaching today.
0:15:49 > 0:15:53Name the farmer who made dried fruit which is fair trade.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Kiran is keen to discover how Liban is integrating in a school
0:15:57 > 0:16:02where 66% of pupils don't have English as a first language.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06We have 51 different languages spoken,
0:16:06 > 0:16:09students from all around the world.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13I'm particularly interested in how the schools are dealing with
0:16:13 > 0:16:15children who are non-English-speaking,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18and what impact that then has on the children
0:16:18 > 0:16:20who actually are born and raised in this country?
0:16:20 > 0:16:26Having children who are just learning English is just one
0:16:26 > 0:16:30aspect of difference, isn't it?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33What it brings is more that it enriches life,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36it makes children have greater tolerance.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40But in terms of making it a two-way street here,
0:16:40 > 0:16:46the immigrant children also learn a lot by observing
0:16:46 > 0:16:49and by watching children who are British-born.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52To say a British child means a lot of different things now.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55There's a lot of them that you may not perceive immediately for them
0:16:55 > 0:16:59to be a typical British child, but they would call themselves British.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03For example, to see Liban on the playground, he is not just
0:17:03 > 0:17:06talking about traditional Somali culture with the other Somali boys.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09There are a lot, he does have Somali friends, but he also has
0:17:09 > 0:17:13friends who were born here but whose families are from Afghanistan.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16You won't see all the Indian children here,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19all the Polish children here, all the Somali children here.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21They do mix.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25At home, we may look traditional as a family,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27and we love to be traditional,
0:17:27 > 0:17:34but when children are going to school, we do mix,
0:17:34 > 0:17:40but we always try to retain culture and tradition that we have come from.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42'Not sure if I learned much,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46'but I think that the answers were all very politically correct,'
0:17:46 > 0:17:48and I'm not saying they were dishonest,
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I'm just saying they were answers I expected.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55The children are doing well, they integrate well etc,
0:17:55 > 0:17:59but the Britishness that we had growing up in school
0:17:59 > 0:18:01perhaps isn't reflected in this school.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06The majority seem to be first-generation immigrants,
0:18:06 > 0:18:09and so yes, they learn about each other's cultures,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12and that's fantastic, but what do they learn about British culture?
0:18:12 > 0:18:17What do they learn about what we learn at school? British values.
0:18:17 > 0:18:22I wouldn't send my children to a school as diverse as this.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25MARGARET: 'We've come to find out
0:18:25 > 0:18:29'if immigration does have an impact on our schools.'
0:18:29 > 0:18:30Presumably, in some boroughs
0:18:30 > 0:18:34and some areas where there is a very high proportion of children
0:18:34 > 0:18:36who don't speak English as their first language,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39- that has an impact on the children who do speak English?- Yes.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43I mean, I think there's sort of a mixed impact here.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46It's very interesting. I think you have to hold two things in balance.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48On the one hand,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51I think it's a million households in Britain where English is not
0:18:51 > 0:18:56spoken as the main language, but school is also where minority
0:18:56 > 0:19:01Britons are, particularly in London, doing extremely well.
0:19:01 > 0:19:02Why is that?
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Many parents of ethnic minority children are very aspirational
0:19:05 > 0:19:10for their children, perhaps more so than white working-class parents,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14and you see that in the school results in London.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16It's one of the reasons, there are several,
0:19:16 > 0:19:20but it's one of the reasons why London is outperforming,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23hugely outperforming the rest of the country,
0:19:23 > 0:19:27so I don't think it would be fair to say the existing population
0:19:27 > 0:19:30of Britain is being pulled back in this case,
0:19:30 > 0:19:32which is not also to say there are not frictional costs.
0:19:32 > 0:19:37We spend about £350 million a year teaching kids to speak English in schools.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41- It's a nontrivial cost.- And that's out of the education budget?
0:19:44 > 0:19:49Retired court clerk John thinks immigrants are a drain on Britain.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52I think overall, immigration's a bad thing for this country.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55Hundreds of thousands of people come into the country,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58which in my view is already overpopulated.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02John's been paired with Rommel, who lives in Norbury, south London.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05He arrived ten years ago from the Philippines, and is now
0:20:05 > 0:20:10manager of a home for people with epilepsy and learning difficulties.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13I am in my prime now, you know, of, like, you know, working,
0:20:13 > 0:20:18and I have contributed to the economy. I am not a burden.
0:20:18 > 0:20:19I am a gain to this country.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23In the first part of the experiment, John challenged Rommel
0:20:23 > 0:20:27over whether he was qualified to even work in the UK.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Did you have precisely the same training that would suit you
0:20:31 > 0:20:33to this work in precisely the same way
0:20:33 > 0:20:37as somebody in the United Kingdom would've had that training?
0:20:37 > 0:20:41One of the reasons why they prefer hiring migrants
0:20:41 > 0:20:43to come and work in the UK is
0:20:43 > 0:20:47because of the skill set that is already available to these people.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49It's really top notch.
0:20:50 > 0:20:55Now, John's joining Rommel in an Asian supermarket to do the weekly shop.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58I need to get prawns for tonight.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02We're going to get pastry rolls.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06I think it's very interesting. Lots of different foods.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09I haven't got a clue what's in a lot of them
0:21:09 > 0:21:12because I can't read a lot of the writing.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15When you pick them up, they look completely different, you know,
0:21:15 > 0:21:17to things you've ever seen before.
0:21:17 > 0:21:23John is joining Rommel and his wife and two sons for a family meal.
0:21:23 > 0:21:28This is my eldest. That is Rocco.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30Hello, Rocco! Say hello. Ooh!
0:21:34 > 0:21:38- We're going to make spring rolls. - Let's have a go.
0:21:38 > 0:21:44- All right, then, yeah. This is for Filipinos, so it is small.- OK.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46Shall I get on my knees?
0:21:46 > 0:21:49It's a chance for John to explore
0:21:49 > 0:21:51whether Rommel is a gain or a drain on Britain.
0:21:51 > 0:21:56I have a big issue with people who have come to this country,
0:21:56 > 0:21:58had children here
0:21:58 > 0:22:03- and teach their children another language as a first language.- Yeah.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06That to me I find totally unacceptable,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09not just from my point of view,
0:22:09 > 0:22:14but think about the children. If those children become westernised,
0:22:14 > 0:22:18they're in a terrible position, because their first language
0:22:18 > 0:22:21won't be English, they may not be able to speak English at all.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24They'll have trouble getting work, they'll have trouble
0:22:24 > 0:22:28fitting into society, they'll have trouble receiving our services.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30If they go to hospital, what's going to happen?
0:22:30 > 0:22:31I disagree with that,
0:22:31 > 0:22:36because I teach my kids our language in the Philippines,
0:22:36 > 0:22:38because we don't speak English in the house,
0:22:38 > 0:22:45but after a year, you know, in the school, he was able to blend well.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47I think so.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50- You can speak two languages, can't you?- Yeah.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52Do you ever find that at school,
0:22:52 > 0:22:55you have a problem with the language side of it?
0:22:55 > 0:23:00I think not, really. In school, we are learning Spanish as well.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02As well? That's clever.
0:23:02 > 0:23:07It's useful for you, cos there's a lot of Spanish in the Philippines.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09John mentioned that, you know,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12children should be taught how to speak English in the house,
0:23:12 > 0:23:19and I strongly disagree with him on that, because in my house,
0:23:19 > 0:23:26in my house, I will do what I think is best for my children.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32Having discovered that Rahat receives free NHS care,
0:23:32 > 0:23:36Margaret wants to find out from his eye surgeon in central London
0:23:36 > 0:23:40exactly how much his treatment will cost the taxpayer.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44Thank you very much. Sorry about the bright light.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48It makes your eyes water, unfortunately.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52- Please look straight ahead now for me.- What condition does Rahat have?
0:23:52 > 0:23:54He has kerataconus,
0:23:54 > 0:23:57and kerataconus is basically a condition of the cornea.
0:23:57 > 0:23:58Here's a model of the eye.
0:23:58 > 0:24:03The cornea becomes weakened and thin, bulges out at the bottom normally,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06and that means you don't get a clear point to focus.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08It's a lovely operation to do for people.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11- It's a privilege to be able to do it. - And an expensive operation?
0:24:11 > 0:24:14In terms of major heart surgery, other transplants, no,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16it's probably not that expensive.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19- Are you training people from other countries?- Yes.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22The health service couldn't function without overseas doctors.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25One of my bug-bears is that we take all these wonderful doctors
0:24:25 > 0:24:28from overseas to work in the National Health Service,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31but we don't actually give the country's money to train
0:24:31 > 0:24:34medical students over there to replace the doctors we've taken.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37So do you have any idea of the cost of this operation
0:24:37 > 0:24:41and the follow-up treatment, how much it would cost in total?
0:24:41 > 0:24:47It's about £1,500, but in terms of restoring someone's vision,
0:24:47 > 0:24:52I think it's cheap at the price, and the country can certainly afford that small amount of money.
0:24:52 > 0:24:57I was pleasantly surprised to find out that it's about £1,500,
0:24:57 > 0:25:01which I think is remarkably cheap, and as the consultant said,
0:25:01 > 0:25:06the advantage to the person in being able to see better, of course, and
0:25:06 > 0:25:14enabling them to have a bigger role in society is a boon to the country.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19So, as a whole, are Britain's immigrants
0:25:19 > 0:25:21an excessive burden on the NHS?
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Those using the NHS, do you have any figures about
0:25:25 > 0:25:29what the immigrant costs, how much he takes out of the NHS?
0:25:29 > 0:25:31Our research at the National Institute showed
0:25:31 > 0:25:36that about 10% of NHS spending went on people who were born
0:25:36 > 0:25:38abroad, that's quite a lot.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42But immigrants on average consumed rather less than British people,
0:25:42 > 0:25:45and that's not surprising, because on average, not exclusively,
0:25:45 > 0:25:47but on average, immigrants tend to be younger
0:25:47 > 0:25:51and healthier than the average native British person,
0:25:51 > 0:25:55and of course, most money we spend on the NHS is on old people.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58It's not on younger and healthier people.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02Do you have any data telling us how much in pound signs
0:26:02 > 0:26:06the immigrant costs the NHS compared with the Brit?
0:26:06 > 0:26:10Well, we reckon on average, a Brit costs about £2,000 a year.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13Immigrants on average cost about £1,600 a year,
0:26:13 > 0:26:15so that's about 20% less.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18Remember, immigrants may be young when they come here, but they get
0:26:18 > 0:26:21old in time and they will cost more money as they get older.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25But of course, it's very important to look at the other side of the balance sheet.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28Remember, immigrants pay taxes, immigrants on the whole
0:26:28 > 0:26:31are more likely to be in work than the British population, so they're
0:26:31 > 0:26:35paying their taxes, so overall, the balance tends to be positive.
0:26:35 > 0:26:40But 21-year-old Jamie from south London doesn't feel that
0:26:40 > 0:26:42immigration's been positive.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46They're just letting too many people into this country.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50The charity starts at home first before letting other foreign
0:26:50 > 0:26:54countries come into this country and take jobs off English people.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57He lives at home with his dad, Andy.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59They both work in the building trade
0:26:59 > 0:27:02and feel it's been overrun with foreign workers.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05The Government's let the floodgates open.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09There's a lot of immigrants in the construction industry.
0:27:09 > 0:27:11In the first part of the experiment,
0:27:11 > 0:27:16Jamie met Polish-born carpenter and businessman Mariusz.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18This is my brother.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20Nice to meet you. I'm Jamie.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23After finding out about Mariusz's work and his home...
0:27:23 > 0:27:28- This is a one bedroom flat. Is this where you sleep as well?- Yeah, we sleep on the sofa.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32..Jamie has ventured into a Polish supermarket for the first time.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35Would you like to try some Polish sausages?
0:27:35 > 0:27:38Yeah, I would love to, yeah.
0:27:38 > 0:27:40Absolutely lovely.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43I think I might have to find a Polish shop myself
0:27:43 > 0:27:45and get a bit of this ham, cos it is rather lovely.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48I don't think I'd ever say this sort of thing,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51but I actually quite like it in here.
0:27:51 > 0:27:57- Now Jamie has invited Mariusz to see his world.- All right, Mariusz.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01- Hi.- Nice to see you again. - How's it going?- Not too bad.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03Upstairs now, where I sleep
0:28:03 > 0:28:06and obviously where I spend most of my time when I'm not
0:28:06 > 0:28:09- in the living room.- Oh, right.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13This is my bedroom. It's not too bad. It's a big space.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16I mean, obviously this is my father's room, where he sleeps.
0:28:16 > 0:28:17The room of the boss.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Yeah, the room of the boss. Exactly that.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23Obviously, this is the spare room.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26I think he would probably say I'm quite lucky in a way,
0:28:26 > 0:28:32because I've got my own bedroom. I only live with my dad.
0:28:32 > 0:28:34We've got another bedroom.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Obviously, this is your father's house,
0:28:37 > 0:28:41but you live here for free or you pay your father something?
0:28:41 > 0:28:46No, I do pay rent, yes. Obviously I pay £70 a week to my father.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50There is no point living with your parents all your life.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- Exactly, yeah.- If you're starting a family with your girlfriend.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56That's the plan this year but at the moment,
0:28:56 > 0:29:01I'm just trying to save enough money to get out of underneath
0:29:01 > 0:29:05my dad's shoes, basically, and let him have a life.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08'Jamie still thinks immigration is preventing him
0:29:08 > 0:29:11'from finding a home of his own and earning a decent wage.'
0:29:11 > 0:29:16He worries about his future and he thinking that immigration,
0:29:16 > 0:29:20the people from Eastern Europe and other countries,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23coming and taking all the jobs but...
0:29:23 > 0:29:28Many, many years in England was the immigration.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31Andy, can you tell me something about your family,
0:29:31 > 0:29:34who is on the picture?
0:29:34 > 0:29:37Yeah, yeah, sure. That's my mother and father.
0:29:39 > 0:29:44- They come from Ireland. Yeah, they came over in the '60s.- Oh, right.
0:29:45 > 0:29:52- The mix.- That's right.- They come to England.- They come to England, yeah.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Mariusz wants to find out more about Andy's family,
0:29:55 > 0:29:59who came to London looking for work, just like himself.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02Can you tell me something more about your family?
0:30:02 > 0:30:05They came from Ireland to work in London
0:30:05 > 0:30:08because there was money here, jobs.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10So, probably my son,
0:30:10 > 0:30:17when he is the age of Jamie, say, "Is there something wrong.
0:30:17 > 0:30:20"There is something wrong because there are a lot of immigrants
0:30:20 > 0:30:24"in England, but I'm born in this country.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28"So I'm in the first of the job."
0:30:28 > 0:30:33There is a stereotype - the Polish drink vodka
0:30:33 > 0:30:36and you know, it's the stereotype.
0:30:36 > 0:30:42But if you go closer to the people, you see there are different sides.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45I don't mind people like Mariusz starting up a company, so I'll
0:30:45 > 0:30:49give him his dues. He's putting something into this country.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52What I do have a problem with is people similar to him
0:30:52 > 0:30:57that have no skills that come over here and take, for instance, my job.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02'Jamie and Andy may be building bridges with Mariusz
0:31:02 > 0:31:05'but John is standing firm.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09'He has invited Ramel to his hometown of Southend to discuss
0:31:09 > 0:31:13'one of his biggest concerns about immigration, crime.'
0:31:13 > 0:31:18My experience and my views is certainly not based
0:31:18 > 0:31:21just on reading one particular newspaper.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24I've got this view based on my long working life,
0:31:24 > 0:31:26being in the court service.
0:31:26 > 0:31:29'John has particularly strong opinions about crime,
0:31:29 > 0:31:34'based on his own calculations using surnames found on court lists.'
0:31:34 > 0:31:37I don't know what you feel about...
0:31:37 > 0:31:39Have you got any view about crime?
0:31:39 > 0:31:41Do you think it is blown out of proportion,
0:31:41 > 0:31:45the amount of crime committed by migrants?
0:31:45 > 0:31:46I think it is.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49What you ought to do is look at criminal court lists
0:31:49 > 0:31:50that are published.
0:31:50 > 0:31:54When I worked in Crown Courts, I used to look at the lists
0:31:54 > 0:31:56and work out proportions, just out of interest.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59Look at the proportions of people there that are clearly
0:31:59 > 0:32:02not of English extraction.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05You can go by the names. I mean, it's obvious.
0:32:05 > 0:32:1044% Bradford, were of non-English extraction.
0:32:10 > 0:32:14Wood Green in London, 75%.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16It's staggering, the number.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20- How many of them, John, were convicted?- I don't know.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22- You don't know.- I don't know.
0:32:22 > 0:32:26We simply don't have the facts and figures to support that they
0:32:26 > 0:32:29have really done wrong in society or not.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32Sure, but I don't look at it like that.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34I look at what's happening to our system.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37'John has raised a controversial subject
0:32:37 > 0:32:40'linking immigration to crime.'
0:32:40 > 0:32:44When he worked as a clerk in the court system, he says a very large
0:32:44 > 0:32:47proportion of the people who came into that court were immigrants.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50Now, that may just be because they had foreign-sounding names
0:32:50 > 0:32:52and of course not all people
0:32:52 > 0:32:54with foreign names are immigrants, are they?
0:32:54 > 0:32:57I wonder how mass immigration has affected the crime rate?
0:32:57 > 0:32:59That would be interesting.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02'Dr Brian Bell has carried out research into the link
0:33:02 > 0:33:05'between crime and immigration.'
0:33:05 > 0:33:07Brian, is there any evidence that immigration causes
0:33:07 > 0:33:09an increase in the crime rate?
0:33:09 > 0:33:12Overall, the answer is no.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15So in some senses you would be surprised if it would
0:33:15 > 0:33:17because over the last 15, 20 years, that is when
0:33:17 > 0:33:20we've seen the biggest rise in immigration and actually,
0:33:20 > 0:33:23crime has fallen almost year in, year out.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26If the percentage of immigrants in the country is
0:33:26 > 0:33:28something like 11 point something or other,
0:33:28 > 0:33:32how does that reflect in the prison population, for instance?
0:33:32 > 0:33:35Foreign nationals in prison are overrepresented relative
0:33:35 > 0:33:36to their share of the population,
0:33:36 > 0:33:40so about 12% of prisoners are foreign nationals and only about
0:33:40 > 0:33:438% or 9% of the population are foreign nationals.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45Slightly different, immigrants, foreign nationals.
0:33:45 > 0:33:49Part of the reason for that is that you can be arrested
0:33:49 > 0:33:51at Heathrow for smuggling in cocaine.
0:33:51 > 0:33:53You're a foreign national, but you never lived in this country
0:33:53 > 0:33:56but you'll be in prison as a foreign national.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00Are there any surveys that reflect the proportion of the immigrant
0:34:00 > 0:34:03population who are guilty of crimes or charged with crimes?
0:34:03 > 0:34:06Yeah, there are. So, the British Crime Survey,
0:34:06 > 0:34:10an annual survey the government conducts, there it's very clear.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13Immigrants are less likely to have been a defendant in court
0:34:13 > 0:34:16and are less likely to have been arrested than natives.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20So, any suggestion that immigrants are responsible
0:34:20 > 0:34:24for an unduly high level of crime
0:34:24 > 0:34:27- can be firmly stamped on.- It can.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30Overall, there's just no link whatsoever.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35'It's not just crime that concerns some people.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38'After living in Hounslow all her life, Kiran is moving.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41'She felt there was a lack of interrogation
0:34:41 > 0:34:43'from new immigrants to the area.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48'She has invited Mohammed to her new home in Richmond, West London.'
0:34:48 > 0:34:52- Good morning.- Hello, good morning, Kiran. How are you?- Very well.
0:34:52 > 0:34:56- And who is this angel?- This is Jaya. - Hello, hello. How are you?
0:34:56 > 0:35:02I must ask you first of all to please excuse the mess. We've just moved in.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06Kiran wants to take Mohammed to her Sikh temple
0:35:06 > 0:35:09to see how open he is to other cultures.
0:35:09 > 0:35:13The Sikh community is massively open about who we let into our homes,
0:35:13 > 0:35:15who we talk with, who we interact with
0:35:15 > 0:35:19and who we allow our children to interact with as well.
0:35:19 > 0:35:24You know, I'm a second-generation Sikh here, and I would...
0:35:24 > 0:35:27I would not find it awkward, but I would still be a little bit hesitant,
0:35:27 > 0:35:30- and I'm not sure how to approach the Somali community.- Mm-hm.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32And again, I think it's just a case
0:35:32 > 0:35:35of not knowing about you as a community.
0:35:35 > 0:35:36And I think it's down to
0:35:36 > 0:35:40both communities having a little bit more to do with each other.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43When you go to Southall or other places,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46it seems that Sikhs keep to themselves.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48'She's still a migrant,'
0:35:48 > 0:35:53from a migrant family, and that running away from migrant groups,
0:35:53 > 0:35:58saying that there are too many here, so that was really astonishing.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01Kiran's temple, or "gurdwara", is open to anyone
0:36:01 > 0:36:03as long as they cover their head
0:36:03 > 0:36:07and haven't recently consumed meat, alcohol or tobacco.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09- So, we're at the gurdwara now.- Yes.
0:36:09 > 0:36:14I can get in, but, you know, as an elder, going to a temple of...
0:36:14 > 0:36:18in my religion, you know, I thought it might not be wise.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21But it's really important to me as a person, and it's what shapes me,
0:36:21 > 0:36:24- so that's why I wanted you to share that.- But we have differences.- Yeah.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27We're different in our colour, we're different in our cultures,
0:36:27 > 0:36:30we're different in the way we pray. We're different.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34You know, these are differences. For example, we believe...
0:36:34 > 0:36:36in one Allah, in God.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39- What you're talking about is a much bigger debate.- I know.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41I think that's what I don't want to get into.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44Yeah, but I don't want to get into that either.
0:36:44 > 0:36:48- I am knowledgeable enough. Faith is faith.- Mm.- It's your faith.
0:36:48 > 0:36:52It's your private matter. And you have your own rules.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54I'm not going to ask you to pray. I don't want you to bow.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57I don't want you to do anything that you're not comfortable with.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59- I can go in personally.- Right.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02But to publicise it, you know,
0:37:02 > 0:37:06in my opinion, it would not be comfortable with my community.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09'By him not coming into the gurdwara today, it just proves'
0:37:09 > 0:37:14that is he wanting to integrate and is he just wanting to learn more?
0:37:14 > 0:37:17It's one thing just learning more, and it's one thing actually
0:37:17 > 0:37:19appreciating it by understanding it and being involved in it.
0:37:19 > 0:37:24In north-east London, Ted and Margaret have their own strong views
0:37:24 > 0:37:27about religion and integration.
0:37:27 > 0:37:31Since we came here, there have been a number of mosques.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34Some have been built from new.
0:37:34 > 0:37:38To see all these mosques makes me feel that we're no longer in England,
0:37:38 > 0:37:42especially the way that they dress in their traditional dress,
0:37:42 > 0:37:45and we've got to a point now
0:37:45 > 0:37:48where we don't see hardly anybody
0:37:48 > 0:37:51dressed in traditional English clothes.
0:37:51 > 0:37:55Suits and shirts and ties are a thing of the past.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59Rahat and Naseem want to take Ted and Margaret to their local mosque
0:37:59 > 0:38:02to show them anyone can visit.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06- You have never been entered in the mosque? No?- No, no.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09We only view them from the outside.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12- They seem to be quite spectacular buildings.- What's going on inside?
0:38:12 > 0:38:15No idea at all. Erm, just to sort of clarify,
0:38:15 > 0:38:20- there's no difference between a Sunni mosque and a Shia mosque?- No.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23- Do I need to wear a scarf before entering?- Yes, yes.
0:38:23 > 0:38:25Women have to wear a scarf,
0:38:25 > 0:38:28- and we have to take our shoes off when we're going inside.- OK.
0:38:28 > 0:38:32- I can wear mine, or...?- Did you need one scarf?- Yes, perhaps I'll...
0:38:32 > 0:38:39- I have one extra.- Lovely. Can you put it on me?- Yes, I can.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41That'd be easiest, I think. It matches. It matches!
0:38:41 > 0:38:43NASEEM LAUGHS
0:38:43 > 0:38:45- I hope you like it. - Yeah, I do. I like bright colours.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47- Oops.- Whoops-a-daisy!
0:38:47 > 0:38:49MARGARET LAUGHS
0:38:51 > 0:38:56- So, you can do either way. You look very nice!- Oh, thank you.- Yes.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59Ted and Margaret are seeing the mosque
0:38:59 > 0:39:02at one of the quietest times of day, before afternoon prayers.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04So, what do they think?
0:39:04 > 0:39:09Having now been given an opportunity to look at what's actually inside,
0:39:09 > 0:39:15I was quite surprised how calm it all is in there, and, erm...
0:39:16 > 0:39:19..there's nothing sinister going on.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23I don't know that that's a good analogy, but you wonder.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27You hear so many things, read so many things that are not good.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29When I was younger, church mattered a lot to me,
0:39:29 > 0:39:32and I went to worship in one on a regular basis.
0:39:32 > 0:39:37It was a simple form of worship, the church that I went to,
0:39:37 > 0:39:41and I'm really surprised when I've come into your place of worship
0:39:41 > 0:39:44how simple it is, and I'm really pleased.
0:39:44 > 0:39:45The mosque is on one road,
0:39:45 > 0:39:48there is a church on one road and a Hindu temple,
0:39:48 > 0:39:50and they are very close to each other,
0:39:50 > 0:39:55and I think this is the harmony we should have for each other as well.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59- I think this is true integration. - It is. It is, exactly. It is.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04With Ted and Margaret embracing new experiences,
0:40:04 > 0:40:07Kiran hopes she can do the same with Mohammed.
0:40:07 > 0:40:11She's asked him to join her in central London, where she volunteers
0:40:11 > 0:40:14for a Sikh organisation that feeds the homeless.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17I wanted Mr Haji to come here. This, for me, is about showing him,
0:40:17 > 0:40:19well, look, we're living in Britain,
0:40:19 > 0:40:21it's a multicultural society
0:40:21 > 0:40:23regardless of whether anyone likes that or not,
0:40:23 > 0:40:27and it should be about helping and serving everybody
0:40:27 > 0:40:29and not just your own community.
0:40:29 > 0:40:34- Hello, Kiran.- How are you? Nice to meet you.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37We really appreciate the work that you are doing in helping the needy.
0:40:37 > 0:40:41- Yeah.- You know, that's a good thing, also.- Would you like to join in?
0:40:41 > 0:40:42Er...
0:40:44 > 0:40:48- Join in?- Yeah! You can help serve. - Er, no, thanks.- No?
0:40:48 > 0:40:50If you don't mind, no, thanks.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52We're just handing out pasta, to be honest,
0:40:52 > 0:40:54so it's just kind of standing there to hand stuff out.
0:40:54 > 0:40:55Just stand there...
0:40:55 > 0:40:59Well, this is bound to fulfilling an obligation, a religious obligation.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02Not necessarily. Well, the Sikh religion is all about
0:41:02 > 0:41:05serving other people and treating the human race as one.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Mr Haji has just said that he can't serve today because it's...
0:41:09 > 0:41:11it's us as Sikhs
0:41:11 > 0:41:15fulfilling, you know, one of our principles of our faith,
0:41:15 > 0:41:18and whilst that is true...
0:41:19 > 0:41:22..is that not true of all humans?
0:41:22 > 0:41:26You know, is it not a fundamental principle just of our kind of,
0:41:26 > 0:41:28you know, fibre to be able to kind of say
0:41:28 > 0:41:30we should agree to help each other?
0:41:30 > 0:41:33It shouldn't matter whether I'm a Sikh, whether he's Muslim,
0:41:33 > 0:41:37whether I'm Christian or Buddhist or Jain or whichever religion I follow.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40It should just be about helping each other,
0:41:40 > 0:41:44and if communities like Mr Haji's and like the Sikh community
0:41:44 > 0:41:47can stand shoulder to shoulder,
0:41:47 > 0:41:50pull our resources together and help more people,
0:41:50 > 0:41:51I mean, it would be fantastic.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54I do appreciate the work Kiran's doing
0:41:54 > 0:41:58regarding helping and supporting the poor and the needy.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01But on the other hand, what I don't agree is that...
0:42:01 > 0:42:06there is a religious Sikh aspect of it.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08That's, er...
0:42:08 > 0:42:11I don't mind them helping people and feeding people and the needy,
0:42:11 > 0:42:16but that religious aspect, I really don't appreciate.
0:42:17 > 0:42:21In Ilford, Ted's returning to the school run by Naseem and Rahat.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23He's come to an English-language class
0:42:23 > 0:42:26that they run for the children of immigrants.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29Ali, would you please tell me what is noun?
0:42:29 > 0:42:33- It's the name of a place, thing or person.- Very good!
0:42:33 > 0:42:35This is Ted's last chance to help him decide
0:42:35 > 0:42:40if Naseem and Rahat are a gain or a drain on Britain.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43Well, your students certainly seem interested in what they're doing.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46You work every day, seven days a week?
0:42:46 > 0:42:51Yes, I normally start nine o'clock and I finish ten o'clock.
0:42:51 > 0:42:55You need to put all those hours in to earn a reasonable income?
0:42:55 > 0:42:57Yes, because it's my visa requirement.
0:42:57 > 0:43:01I have to earn more than 35,000 a year.
0:43:01 > 0:43:04And if I don't get that level of income,
0:43:04 > 0:43:05then we have to leave the country
0:43:05 > 0:43:08and my husband's treatment couldn't be possible.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12I was really surprised at the number of hours that they need to work
0:43:12 > 0:43:15to make an income that will allow them to stay.
0:43:15 > 0:43:21If it was to go wrong for them, there's no social hands-out for them,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24and I think they would just have to go back, which...
0:43:24 > 0:43:27doesn't really seem fair.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30They've put everything into trying to make a go of life.
0:43:31 > 0:43:36Ted is feeling closer to making a decision about Naseem and Rahat,
0:43:36 > 0:43:39but Kiran feels she isn't getting many answers from Mohammed.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42So she's hoping to learn more from his daughters.
0:43:42 > 0:43:44I think it'd be quite interesting to ask them, really,
0:43:44 > 0:43:48if and how much they want to integrate into British society,
0:43:48 > 0:43:52you know, what their definition of British values is
0:43:52 > 0:43:55and what it means to them, what it really means to them,
0:43:55 > 0:43:56to live in Britain.
0:43:56 > 0:44:01- Hello.- Hello.- Shall I take... I'll take my shoes off.- It's all right.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04- Are you sure? I don't mind at all. - No, no problem.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07What are you guys having for dinner tonight?
0:44:07 > 0:44:12Today we make chicken, and this is the chips.
0:44:12 > 0:44:16So it's not Somalian food, it's French food that you're eating!
0:44:16 > 0:44:18When people are new to this country,
0:44:18 > 0:44:21they are holding on to their own cultures and how they behave
0:44:21 > 0:44:23and how their mannerisms are.
0:44:23 > 0:44:28It's all very much how they would behave in their own country.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30So in terms of, erm...
0:44:30 > 0:44:33"Britishness", if you can call it that,
0:44:33 > 0:44:38is there anything about you that I could or anybody could say is British
0:44:38 > 0:44:40or indeed you could say is British?
0:44:40 > 0:44:43- Well, we speak English. - The way we act. What we eat.
0:44:43 > 0:44:47- What do you eat?- Fish and chips. - Beans on toast. Fish and chips.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50Like, we've integrated, eating all their foods. But...
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Yeah, we go to their school, we speak with their people.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56So, like, I'd say I'm British in one way, but then...
0:44:56 > 0:44:58Yeah, it's not like we hate the country. We enjoy living here.
0:44:58 > 0:45:04There's this assumption, don't you find, that people see you in Southall
0:45:04 > 0:45:06and see the Somalian community and think...
0:45:08 > 0:45:11KIRAN SIGHS ..I don't know, think that, erm...
0:45:11 > 0:45:12Benefit seekers.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16Yeah, benefit seekers, but also you're running away from...
0:45:16 > 0:45:18it's not as bad as you make out,
0:45:18 > 0:45:21so therefore you're here, because you really want to be here
0:45:21 > 0:45:24but you're just saying we've come back from a civil...
0:45:24 > 0:45:25we're trying to escape the civil war.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28- Do you see what I mean? - Yes. We escaped civil war.
0:45:28 > 0:45:29They ran for their lives,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32and all they had was the clothes on their backs and their children.
0:45:32 > 0:45:33And that's all they had.
0:45:33 > 0:45:38To make it seem like it was nothing and they could go back any time now
0:45:38 > 0:45:43is not really serious, because they nearly died, basically.
0:45:43 > 0:45:47In terms of actually settling down, where would you want to settle?
0:45:47 > 0:45:50I would like to go back to Somalia just to help out the country.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53Listen, many people now go back to Somalia
0:45:53 > 0:45:57to help out after they get their degrees, like doctors and...
0:45:57 > 0:46:01- Different people just go back to... - They open businesses out there.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04But don't you think that's quite interesting, in a way, because...
0:46:04 > 0:46:08they are studying here and they're being given that education
0:46:08 > 0:46:11through British teachers in British schools,
0:46:11 > 0:46:14and we need doctors here, right?
0:46:14 > 0:46:18They want us out, as well, they think there's too many immigrants
0:46:18 > 0:46:22and wouldn't it be better if we left?
0:46:22 > 0:46:24Yeah, but isn't it up to you to change that?
0:46:24 > 0:46:28Isn't it up to you to say, "Well, no, I'm British and I'm proud to be here.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31- "I'm not going anywhere"?- AND to say, "I want to go back to my country".
0:46:31 > 0:46:32I don't belong here, to be honest.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35I belong in my country, and they don't want me here.
0:46:35 > 0:46:37I'll help the both of us by moving there.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39What would you say to people who say,
0:46:39 > 0:46:41"You're just here for the short term"?
0:46:41 > 0:46:45If we go back to our country and rebuild it,
0:46:45 > 0:46:49then people would stop migrating to the UK.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52So that would be better for the UK and for our country.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54So I think that it would be beneficial
0:46:54 > 0:46:57if we got our education here and then moved back to Somalia.
0:46:57 > 0:47:01I've learnt that the Haji family are just a regular family
0:47:01 > 0:47:03trying to get by.
0:47:03 > 0:47:04Erm...
0:47:05 > 0:47:09It could happen to anyone. There could be war anywhere.
0:47:09 > 0:47:13There could be upheaval and unrest absolutely anywhere.
0:47:13 > 0:47:15I think the other day, the first day that I met them,
0:47:15 > 0:47:18when they said, "We want to go back to Somalia,"
0:47:18 > 0:47:20I was thinking, "Yeah, I don't think you do".
0:47:20 > 0:47:23Erm, but having spoken to them today,
0:47:23 > 0:47:26they've got so much conviction about wanting to go back,
0:47:26 > 0:47:32and also their reasoning behind it sounds really real.
0:47:32 > 0:47:35Erm, you know, they want to make it a better place,
0:47:35 > 0:47:40they're happy if it works, erm, you know, if it's a good country.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42And I suppose if the war ends,
0:47:42 > 0:47:46then they'll go back to better their country.
0:47:47 > 0:47:50'For the British-born and the immigrants,
0:47:50 > 0:47:52'their time together has come to an end.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55'After challenging their different points of view
0:47:55 > 0:47:56'and exploring their lives,
0:47:56 > 0:48:02'will the Brits think the immigrants a gain or a drain on Britain?
0:48:02 > 0:48:04'First up, Ted and Margaret.'
0:48:04 > 0:48:06It's judgment time.
0:48:06 > 0:48:11Rahat, Naseem - are they a gain or a drain on this country?
0:48:11 > 0:48:16Naseem and Rahat have come here qualified
0:48:16 > 0:48:19and they've got something great to offer.
0:48:19 > 0:48:23The benefits far outweigh the...drain.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25They're not taking anything out, but they're contributing,
0:48:25 > 0:48:27is that it in a nutshell?
0:48:27 > 0:48:29- Yeah.- Totally. Yes.
0:48:29 > 0:48:33What are they contributing? How are we gaining from them being here?
0:48:33 > 0:48:36Well, they're helping to integrate their communities into ours.
0:48:36 > 0:48:38There's the taxes they're paying.
0:48:38 > 0:48:42We bring all of our money which we earned throughout our life
0:48:42 > 0:48:45back in Pakistan, we bring it in this country and we invest it.
0:48:45 > 0:48:47Well, I think this is something
0:48:47 > 0:48:51that most of the indigenous white don't understand,
0:48:51 > 0:48:53and it really is an eye-opener.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55- Thank you very much. - Thank you very much.
0:48:55 > 0:49:00Obviously, the more you learn about what the facts are,
0:49:00 > 0:49:04then it enables you to, er, make a better judgment.
0:49:04 > 0:49:09And we mustn't forget, we've only seen one school
0:49:09 > 0:49:11and one couple of immigrants,
0:49:11 > 0:49:14and if they were all like that,
0:49:14 > 0:49:16then there wouldn't be any real problem.
0:49:16 > 0:49:20We appreciate and we are highly grateful, indeed,
0:49:20 > 0:49:24that they think that we are contributing.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28Golden words for me, for my whole life that immigrants are the gain.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30Immigrants are not drain.
0:49:30 > 0:49:35It's now time to find out Kiran's judgment on Mohammed
0:49:35 > 0:49:37and if her views on immigration have changed.
0:49:37 > 0:49:41It's about contribution, and you would argue, I'm sure strongly,
0:49:41 > 0:49:44that your Sikh community, over the years,
0:49:44 > 0:49:48has made a great, strong contribution to British society. OK?
0:49:48 > 0:49:52Would you also argue with me that the Somali community,
0:49:52 > 0:49:54though young in this country,
0:49:54 > 0:49:58will one day make the same sort of contribution that yours has?
0:49:58 > 0:50:00Well, I hope so.
0:50:00 > 0:50:05At the moment, they aren't perhaps as open or as willing just yet.
0:50:05 > 0:50:10You've got eight children who are going through the education system.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13If they stay here, they'll contribute to our community,
0:50:13 > 0:50:15and if they go back to Somalia,
0:50:15 > 0:50:20they'll contribute very much to the Somalian community at home.
0:50:20 > 0:50:24Well, Margaret, they have already started to contribute,
0:50:24 > 0:50:28if I may say so. My first son has already working for two years.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31Three of my children are now graduating this year.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33My wife is about to start a business.
0:50:33 > 0:50:36In my case, I'm working for seven and a half years.
0:50:36 > 0:50:40Although it's very hard a task, we are trying our very best to achieve.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43And many families have started to go back,
0:50:43 > 0:50:46and we believe that when they go there they will take the culture,
0:50:46 > 0:50:48they become ambassadors.
0:50:48 > 0:50:51I think Britain will benefit from it.
0:50:51 > 0:50:55Would you say that overall the UK gains
0:50:55 > 0:50:58from having Mr Haji and his family here
0:50:58 > 0:51:03or would you say they're a drain on the UK?
0:51:03 > 0:51:06I would say gain...
0:51:06 > 0:51:10erm, because Mr Haji's family isn't sitting at home idle.
0:51:10 > 0:51:14Yes, they have eight children, and I would hope that they study hard
0:51:14 > 0:51:17and invest back into the community then afterwards.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20I think you have to be quite hard-faced to say to someone,
0:51:20 > 0:51:22after spending, you know, nearly a week with them
0:51:22 > 0:51:25and getting to know them
0:51:25 > 0:51:28and being in their personal space in their home, meeting their family,
0:51:28 > 0:51:32to afterwards then say, "Yeah, you're a drain on society"...
0:51:32 > 0:51:35I think that'd be absolutely awful to hear.
0:51:35 > 0:51:39'Next, it's back to meet Jamie and Mariusz.'
0:51:39 > 0:51:42So, Jamie, what have you learnt from being with Mariusz
0:51:42 > 0:51:46- over the last few days?- Erm, an insight into his life, I'd say.
0:51:46 > 0:51:49It's changed my views a bit on immigration
0:51:49 > 0:51:53and the way I feel about foreign workers coming into this country.
0:51:53 > 0:51:57What we need to do is have somebody find a line to say,
0:51:57 > 0:51:59"Whoa, let's slow it down,
0:51:59 > 0:52:03"look after the people who we've already got here".
0:52:03 > 0:52:05It's too late now.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08I mean, how can you ask someone who's come from Europe,
0:52:08 > 0:52:11who's working hard here, wants to make his home...?
0:52:11 > 0:52:12- We can't send him back.- No.
0:52:12 > 0:52:16Because he's a part of our culture, he's a part of our country now.
0:52:16 > 0:52:20I guess the more people that work at your workshop
0:52:20 > 0:52:23who are Polish, speaking Polish, the less likely it is
0:52:23 > 0:52:26that you will inject into that group an English person,
0:52:26 > 0:52:29- because you're all speaking Polish...- No.- No?
0:52:29 > 0:52:32It's better for us if we are with some English,
0:52:32 > 0:52:37because we start to learn the language better.
0:52:37 > 0:52:42Do you think that he is a gain for British society
0:52:42 > 0:52:45or do you think he's actually a drain on the society?
0:52:45 > 0:52:49Yeah, he has changed my mind on that a bit, I'd say - not fully,
0:52:49 > 0:52:51cos I've still got my points of view in my line of work.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53- He's a contributor. - Yeah. Definitely.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55And there was a time, of course,
0:52:55 > 0:52:59when the whole of the British construction business -
0:52:59 > 0:53:00Irish navvies.
0:53:00 > 0:53:02Yeah. That's right.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04They built this country.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07And that's what these people here are now doing.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10After the first meeting with Andy,
0:53:10 > 0:53:14I think that will be a very difficult conversation!
0:53:14 > 0:53:19But when I show Jamie and Andy my life,
0:53:19 > 0:53:21I think he changed the mind.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25I still feel strongly about my points of undercutting
0:53:25 > 0:53:28and working in worse conditions and stuff like that,
0:53:28 > 0:53:31but what I've seen from him, I have no problem with him.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33As I say, he's a gain to this country.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35Margaret, I don't know whether you agree,
0:53:35 > 0:53:37but is there a generational issue here?
0:53:37 > 0:53:41Do the young people like Jamie find themselves
0:53:41 > 0:53:43far more accepting of immigrants,
0:53:43 > 0:53:47because Dad certainly didn't? The volume terrified him.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50I have sympathy with Mariusz employing Polish workers,
0:53:50 > 0:53:54because he wants skilled workers and he knows what he's getting.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56And, you know, an English person could have taken the risk
0:53:56 > 0:53:59of doing that and employing English people.
0:53:59 > 0:54:02I think it's open borders and open minds,
0:54:02 > 0:54:04that's what we should be thinking about,
0:54:04 > 0:54:07and I think Mariusz should also consider taking on,
0:54:07 > 0:54:11in the right spirit, taking on English workers.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13I think he should.
0:54:13 > 0:54:18'Last of all, it's time to hear John's judgment on Rommel.'
0:54:18 > 0:54:20So, John, you're a
0:54:20 > 0:54:23pretty mature sort of guy. Speak frankly.
0:54:23 > 0:54:27Do you think, looking at Rommel, that we as a country
0:54:27 > 0:54:31have gained by having him here or he's a drain on the UK?
0:54:31 > 0:54:34I think he's definitely a gain. No question about it.
0:54:34 > 0:54:38He's a gain, because he's giving our needy people...
0:54:38 > 0:54:42In your work. So is your wife.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44No problem, they're clearly a gain.
0:54:44 > 0:54:46- I believe there are millions of Rommels.- There might be.
0:54:46 > 0:54:50It's not only me. You know, there are loads of us,
0:54:50 > 0:54:53not only Filipinos but, you know, other migrant workers
0:54:53 > 0:54:56contributing to the economy.
0:54:56 > 0:55:00We don't claim. We cannot claim benefits, because the minute we do,
0:55:00 > 0:55:05we will be sent back to our, you know, home country.
0:55:05 > 0:55:11Now, that alone shows that we are contributing greatly to the economy.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14- What do you think? - It needs to be controlled,
0:55:14 > 0:55:16and it isn't being controlled properly.
0:55:16 > 0:55:19I think some moves are being made to address that,
0:55:19 > 0:55:22but it's rather like closing the stable door
0:55:22 > 0:55:24after the horse has bolted.
0:55:24 > 0:55:29John is John, and no matter how, you know, the statistics,
0:55:29 > 0:55:32no matter how much a person thinks...
0:55:32 > 0:55:37of, you know, the contribution migrant workers does to the UK,
0:55:37 > 0:55:42I don't think his views will change. John is John, and that's what he is.
0:55:42 > 0:55:43Listening to John
0:55:43 > 0:55:47was listening to the gut feeling of millions of Britons
0:55:47 > 0:55:52informed by thousands of newspaper articles and editorials.
0:55:52 > 0:55:54Yes, and then, when he met Rommel and he got to know him
0:55:54 > 0:55:58and he realised he was contributing, he thinks Rommel's an exception.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01It's always the way, Margaret! Judge as you find.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06It's the end of the experiment.
0:56:06 > 0:56:11So, what can we take away from the whole experience?
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Well, we've heard what each of our pairings has to say, haven't we?
0:56:15 > 0:56:17And I know it's only a snapshot of the immigration debate.
0:56:17 > 0:56:20But do you think from the people that we've met
0:56:20 > 0:56:25we can judge whether immigration is a gain or a drain?
0:56:25 > 0:56:26I'm not sure.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29One of the strongest messages we've picked up
0:56:29 > 0:56:30is a concern about integration,
0:56:30 > 0:56:34and nearly all of our British-born have to some extent
0:56:34 > 0:56:37felt alienated from their own communities,
0:56:37 > 0:56:39and that's a really emotional issue.
0:56:39 > 0:56:43But on the other hand, take people like Mariusz and Rahat and Naseem.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45They've started businesses and they're contributing.
0:56:45 > 0:56:47The question is, Margaret,
0:56:47 > 0:56:51does that outweigh the demands that immigrants place on public services?
0:56:51 > 0:56:54There are shortages in housing and in school places.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56That's not the fault of the immigrants,
0:56:56 > 0:57:00but they definitely increase the pressure on those services.
0:57:00 > 0:57:04But the NHS couldn't function without immigrant workers.
0:57:04 > 0:57:06And look, here we are in the centre of London.
0:57:06 > 0:57:08It's a city more or less built by immigrants.
0:57:08 > 0:57:11Surely, Margaret, the question that people need to ask themselves
0:57:11 > 0:57:15is what sort of society do they want Britain to be.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17Wouldn't we rather be seen across the world
0:57:17 > 0:57:20as a society that's open and welcoming
0:57:20 > 0:57:23rather than one that's intolerant and closed?