0:00:03 > 0:00:08There are people who are so rabidly homophobic,
0:00:08 > 0:00:10and I just find that fascinating.
0:00:10 > 0:00:15It's as if you met someone who was absolutely....
0:00:15 > 0:00:19Spent all their life, trying to get rid of red telephones.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21You'd go... "What?!"
0:00:21 > 0:00:23It... You know, you would not understand it.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Why would someone bother to attack a group of people
0:00:29 > 0:00:31who mean, and do them no harm.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35This is a series about gay people
0:00:35 > 0:00:39and the trouble people have accepting them.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Over the last two years, when time allowed,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46I travelled to meet some of the most notorious homophobes on the planet.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47Signor. Stephen Fry.
0:00:48 > 0:00:53To challenge their prejudice, and to find out where their hatred comes from.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57Gay people, most of them, are lying about their problems.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00You're really not making any sense, deputy. You really aren't.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Homosexuality is fantastic, you should try it.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05I will arrest you. I will arrest you!
0:01:05 > 0:01:07But when your penis is terrorising someone...
0:01:07 > 0:01:09HE LAUGHS
0:01:09 > 0:01:10But my penis doesn't do that!
0:01:10 > 0:01:12I also had a chance to meet
0:01:12 > 0:01:15some of the people who are victims of this prejudice,
0:01:15 > 0:01:19as well as those fighting against it.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21I never feel to sleep with a woman.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23I say yuck!
0:01:23 > 0:01:24I am born a queen.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Of course, this matters to me, because I'm gay.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39But homophobia impacts on all of us.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42It diminishes or humanity.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45And you can find it all around the world.
0:01:48 > 0:01:54This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Stephen, do you think we've arrived now, here in the UK,
0:02:10 > 0:02:11in terms of gay rights?
0:02:11 > 0:02:13In legal terms, I think we have.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15But it's not a question just of laws,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18it's a question of the outlook of the broader society.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21Part of me wishes to bury myself under the blanket
0:02:21 > 0:02:26and let someone else do any cheerleading for good causes.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30It's nice to think one can just let the world get on with it,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33and it's certainly not my job to push things down people's throat -
0:02:33 > 0:02:37which is always the good gay joke people make.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39One can't stand by and see injustice.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43If there's another horrible case of a child hanging themselves
0:02:43 > 0:02:45because they are being tormented,
0:02:45 > 0:02:46then you have to speak out
0:02:46 > 0:02:48and hope things get better.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Because there are certain things you can't control,
0:02:51 > 0:02:55but there are the things where just quietly pushing on the door
0:02:55 > 0:02:57you can make a difference.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01By pecking on the wood you can eventually drill a hole.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04It's incredible how much has changed for gay people
0:03:04 > 0:03:06in Britain in my lifetime.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09'It's only been legal for me to be gay since 1967...'
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Those homophobes are wrong - you can have Adam and Steve!
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Though I know it's Andy and Steve. You're Andy?
0:03:16 > 0:03:18'..but even though gays are no longer criminals,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21'and we have more rights than ever before, there are still
0:03:21 > 0:03:23'some of you out there
0:03:23 > 0:03:26'who will think what you're about to see is wrong.'
0:03:27 > 0:03:30Are you nervous? Yes. Very. Very? Really? Yeah.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33Some would say, the point about gay people is that they are bohemian,
0:03:33 > 0:03:37they're outside the normal world of families and all that,
0:03:37 > 0:03:39so why would you feel the need
0:03:39 > 0:03:42to seal your relationship in a civil bond like this?
0:03:42 > 0:03:45It's just the natural thing for us to do, isn't it?
0:03:45 > 0:03:46It's the way we've been brought up.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49I feel what we have, is what I've been shown love is
0:03:49 > 0:03:51and what a marriage is, from my parents.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56They treated each other with respect, they were partners, and that's what we are.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58We just happen to be two men.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01WOMAN'S VOICE: All straightforward? Good.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05Excellent. Deep breath, lower the shoulders, smile...
0:04:05 > 0:04:07and enjoy.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09While England and Wales were slightly ahead of the game,
0:04:09 > 0:04:14being gay was a crime in Scotland until 1980.
0:04:14 > 0:04:151982 in Northern Ireland.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19The World Health Organisation regarded being gay
0:04:19 > 0:04:22as a mental illness until 1992.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Everybody believes they live in a lifetime of extraordinary change,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30but I feel I've got more reason to think it than most.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33The idea of the seedy, dirty, filthy queer
0:04:33 > 0:04:36firmly entrenched in one's mind as one grew up.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38As soon as I realised that's that what I was,
0:04:38 > 0:04:40which was very early with me,
0:04:40 > 0:04:44it was naturally with a sense of foreboding that I anticipated adulthood.
0:04:45 > 0:04:50Is there any one present who knows of any lawful reason
0:04:50 > 0:04:55why Andrew and Stephen may not form their civil partnership this afternoon?
0:04:55 > 0:04:57Splendid!
0:04:57 > 0:04:58LAUGHTER
0:04:58 > 0:05:02To go from that situation to this amazing day like today,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05when you see a gay couple getting a civil partnership
0:05:05 > 0:05:08with the full blessing of the law and the charm and warmth of the registrars
0:05:08 > 0:05:12and the easy-going nature of the entire event,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15that's a very profound thing I think.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17I give you this ring... I give you this ring...
0:05:17 > 0:05:20..as a token of my love... ..as a token of my love...
0:05:20 > 0:05:23..and a sign of the promises... ..and a sign of the promises...
0:05:23 > 0:05:26..I make to you today. ..I make to you today.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28GUESTS CLAP
0:05:29 > 0:05:31I can't help it.
0:05:31 > 0:05:36When you see this sort of ceremony
0:05:36 > 0:05:42after the hundreds of years of prejudice and hatred that went before, it's just...
0:05:42 > 0:05:44It's happiness, really.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48CHEERING
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Yes, I always cry at weddings anyway.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55And you just realise how far we've travelled,
0:05:55 > 0:05:56and it's incredibly touching.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Makes one very proud to live in a time when this is finally possible.
0:06:00 > 0:06:05It seems to be that the world is going in two directions at once.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10The enemies of enlightened thinking, open thinking, free thinking,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13free action, free thought... are many.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17And gay people, while we certainly should celebrate days like this -
0:06:17 > 0:06:19we should be aware, we should be cautious,
0:06:19 > 0:06:21we should always be on our guard.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25You know, that somebody out there hates us.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37The fear that people hate us makes coming out difficult.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41For me, as a teenager in the 1970s,
0:06:41 > 0:06:44it was a terrifying prospect
0:06:44 > 0:06:48because there was still so much shame attached to being gay.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55But then, in '76, something inspiring happened.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01One of the most famous and successful pop stars on the planet,
0:07:01 > 0:07:03risked it all by going public
0:07:03 > 0:07:07and saying there was nothing wrong with going to bed
0:07:07 > 0:07:09with someone of your own sex.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14It was a game-changing moment for me
0:07:14 > 0:07:16and countless other gay teens
0:07:16 > 0:07:19who had locked ourselves away in the closet.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22Well, hello! Hello.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24Welcome. Thank you so much.
0:07:26 > 0:07:27Nice to see you. Wonderful to see you.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29Come in. Thank you.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Come on, you.
0:07:33 > 0:07:38How early on did you realise you were not as other girls, as I like to put it.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Erm...it took quite a while.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42I grew up in the '50s when nobody talked about sex.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45And the first time I had sex was when I was 23. Really?
0:07:45 > 0:07:48With anybody! Yeah. And it was a man.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51The thing was, I thought everybody in the industry knew.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54And when it came out, and it was the cover of Rolling Stone,
0:07:54 > 0:07:58it really didn't hurt my career that much at all.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00Some people burnt my records...
0:08:00 > 0:08:03but it wasn't really... There was no seismic shift.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05So, you were mutually drawn.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08Did you have a boyfriend at the time? Had you had a boyfriend?
0:08:08 > 0:08:10No, Elton is my first real relationship.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13The first six months, we took it very slowly, and very carefully.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15I had to come out to my family.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17I had to go home at Christmas and say,
0:08:17 > 0:08:21"I'm gay, and I am in a relationship with Elton John."
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Which is coming out like an Exocet missile!
0:08:23 > 0:08:27Wallop!
0:08:27 > 0:08:33Your relationship was blossoming, until the point...
0:08:33 > 0:08:35that civil marriages became...
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Civil partnerships, I should say.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40..became possible and you were the first notable couple to have one.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44We did it on the first day we could - 21 December.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47We did it really to make a political statement.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50But the actual service, and the actual occasion,
0:08:50 > 0:08:54was so moving that it really changed our relationship.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58We did it for symbolic reasons, and then had this tremendous sense of contentment afterwards.
0:08:58 > 0:09:00Now that we've taken on the responsibility
0:09:00 > 0:09:02of raising a child together, um,
0:09:02 > 0:09:04I couldn't feel any closer to Elton than I feel right now.
0:09:04 > 0:09:09There are those in the public eye who have said that, you know,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12a true family should be a man and woman and a child
0:09:12 > 0:09:14as in the usual, conventional way.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16That I don't agree with, at all. No.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19You can't get everyone on your side. And we don't need...
0:09:19 > 0:09:21We just want to be good parents, and prove people wrong.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26And I think we will. But you can't stop that kind of stuff.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28That's right. It's all about equality.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I think everybody in life deserves to be treated equally,
0:09:31 > 0:09:33regardless of who they are, or what they are,
0:09:33 > 0:09:37who they love, or where they come from -
0:09:37 > 0:09:39age, colour, sexuality, sex.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43And, indeed, I would say with absolute assurance
0:09:43 > 0:09:49that there are in Britain alone, many, many, many gay couples
0:09:49 > 0:09:55and gay individuals who feel probably validated by your status.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59For all kinds of reasons - the dignity, the obvious authenticity,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02and the fact that you speak out, both of you,
0:10:02 > 0:10:04has done a lot for individuals.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15While Elton and David have done much to encourage
0:10:15 > 0:10:18a change in attitude towards gay people here,
0:10:18 > 0:10:21I am keen to know more about what it means to be gay
0:10:21 > 0:10:23elsewhere in the world.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30Today, 40 years on from the very first Gay Pride march in Britain,
0:10:30 > 0:10:33London is hosting World Pride.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38And the gay community here
0:10:38 > 0:10:42has joined forces with gay men and women from all around the planet,
0:10:42 > 0:10:45to show that the fight for gay equality is now a global one.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53Here we are on the corner of Baker Street and Oxford Street -
0:10:53 > 0:10:56taken over by a group of people whose rights have advanced
0:10:56 > 0:10:59enormously over the past 40 years since this began,
0:10:59 > 0:11:03but we must never forget rights can be taken away
0:11:03 > 0:11:06as easily as they can be given
0:11:06 > 0:11:11and there are people out there who are filled with hate
0:11:11 > 0:11:13for who we are.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16And we have to be out there to show them we're proud of who we are,
0:11:16 > 0:11:19and that's why it's called Pride.
0:11:19 > 0:11:20You look superb.
0:11:20 > 0:11:21Thank you very much.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23You must envy my body enormously. I do.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26In fact, I always wear a tux in your honour.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28Have a great day. You, too.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35So, have you come all the way from Sri Lanka to be here? Yes.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38From a country that criminalises us for being gay
0:11:38 > 0:11:41with 12 years in jail. 12 years in jail?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44And we are living with the remnants of British laws
0:11:44 > 0:11:46that have not been taken away from us.
0:11:46 > 0:11:51Laws criminalising homosexuality never existed around the world
0:11:51 > 0:11:53until the British imposed it on them.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56Yes. Please take back what you gave us.
0:11:56 > 0:11:57We don't want it any more! Yes!
0:12:05 > 0:12:10Of the 84 countries that still criminalise homosexuality,
0:12:10 > 0:12:15roughly half are ex-British colonies using old British laws.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Though none of these are among the five that currently
0:12:19 > 0:12:21put gay people to death.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23This is Iran.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25These are some boys being hanged by the neck
0:12:25 > 0:12:27till they are dead, in the usual way.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29A sort of mass hanging,
0:12:29 > 0:12:33again for the crime of apparently having slept with each other.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44It's the supreme expression of homophobia.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47If anti-Semitism can lead to Auschwitz,
0:12:47 > 0:12:48homophobia leads to this.
0:12:48 > 0:12:49The sheer...
0:12:53 > 0:12:56Although it sounds like political correctness,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59moaning about playground taunting,
0:12:59 > 0:13:04and saying that it's important that we show respect,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07this is why.
0:13:08 > 0:13:15Because if you let words and insults go by unchallenged,
0:13:15 > 0:13:19if you don't allow the dignity of gay people,
0:13:19 > 0:13:25then slowly those will be given freer and freer rein
0:13:25 > 0:13:28to do what they wish.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30I don't know what I can do.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32I can't go to Iran.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36The BBC have advised that it would not be safe or sensible for me to do so.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39We wanted to film in Turkey, actually
0:13:39 > 0:13:45where we'd heard of a couple of Iranians who'd taken refuge there,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48but even Turkey, which is more or less a democracy,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50denied us the right to film.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52They said, "Why would you want a film about homosexuality?"
0:13:52 > 0:13:54"What a peculiar subject."
0:13:54 > 0:13:59So, instead I'm going to talk to someone who comes from Iran
0:13:59 > 0:14:03and is here seeking asylum,
0:14:03 > 0:14:07terrified of going back home where he may well be killed.
0:14:13 > 0:14:19Three such hangings are to have reported to have taken place in the last year.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23But it's almost impossible to find anyone brave enough
0:14:23 > 0:14:25to talk about being gay in Iran.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Farshad has agreed to meet me
0:14:29 > 0:14:33to tell his story of how loving someone
0:14:33 > 0:14:35could have cost him his life.
0:14:36 > 0:14:42I had a boyfriend, but his father was a very, very horrible man.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46And we had a relationship for four years.
0:14:46 > 0:14:51And his father claimed of course that, me, I raped his son,
0:14:51 > 0:14:56my boyfriend if he said, "It wasn't rape," he will be guilty.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59I see, because then he would admit that he'd been...
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Yeah. Yeah.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04And so he said, "Yes, it was rape."
0:15:04 > 0:15:08So that's when you escaped? And you miss him still?
0:15:08 > 0:15:12Lots. He's fine at the moment, he has to stay home all the time
0:15:12 > 0:15:16and his father locks the door. Jesus.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18He can't leave the home. And he's tried to...
0:15:18 > 0:15:22His father says he has to marry with some girl.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25And there's no chance of him escaping Iran to come
0:15:25 > 0:15:28and join you in England? Oh, that's terrible.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31And you've been here for three years now? Yeah.
0:15:31 > 0:15:37And has the Home Office granted you asylum as a refugee?
0:15:37 > 0:15:42When my case worker asked me about my case, they don't believe me,
0:15:42 > 0:15:43that I'm gay.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45And they told me,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48"If you are gay, you need good, good evidence that you are gay."
0:15:48 > 0:15:49That's a bizarre state of affairs,
0:15:49 > 0:15:52because they must recognise that if you went back to Iran,
0:15:52 > 0:15:55your life would be in danger or certainly your liberty.
0:15:55 > 0:16:03If they want to turn back to Iran, there is no any way,
0:16:03 > 2:47:44I've been thinking about suicide and I will kill myself,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because it's better than hanging.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes. I choose this way. Quite. It's your choice. It's my choice.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44If the British government sends you back to Iran
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and the worst happened and you were hanged, it would be a
2:47:44 > 2:47:44crime that would be on the head of every one of my countrymen.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And it would shame me.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You can be aware of the wider politics, the theology,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44it's only when you meet someone who is a victim of this,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44of those extraordinary skewed moralities and the cruelty
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and barbarity of the system that's in place in Iran
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that it touches you truly deeply.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I think Farshad is an extremely brave man to talk to me
2:47:44 > 2:47:44on camera about his experience.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's the most idiotic, the most ironic,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44the most stupid human quality you can have,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that love is the thing that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44tears people from their homeland, from their families,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44threatens their lives, makes them outcasts from their own people.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Love, the greatest force we have,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44the thing that will mend us all in the end,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44it's just... It's criminal, it's very, very upsetting indeed.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44For me, it's not enough that my country
2:47:44 > 2:47:44might offer sanctuary to gay people,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44persecuted by their own governments.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'd like to talk to some of these tyrants,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44to hear how they try to justify themselves and their prejudices.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm starting in Uganda, a country that seems to be going backwards
2:47:44 > 2:47:44in its treatment of gay people.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Since 2009, its government has been considering passing a new law
2:47:44 > 2:47:44which proposes a death penalty for homosexuals.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's ignited a wave of anti-gay feeling
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and made homosexuality a hot topic here.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've been invited by Kampala's most popular radio breakfast show host
2:47:44 > 2:47:44to debate the issue.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Stephen Fry here to see Fatboy. Fatboy?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Fatboy? Fatboy. How nice to meet you. Nice to meet you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hi, good morning, Denise. Denise, lovely to meet you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Mr Fry? Yes. How are you?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'And I can't deny I'm feeling a bit nervous about meeting my opponent
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'in the debate who'd probably prefer if me and my kind were behind bars.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Welcome to Sanyu Breakfast, Stephen Fry.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Thank you Fatboy, it's lovely to be here.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yeah. Also joining us, we're joined by Pastor Male of Arising for Christ Ministries,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44he almost needs no introduction, you know him,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44he's out there very aggressively fighting against the many evils
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that plague our society, is that correct? True.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'In a climate where the size of a church congregation equates
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'to its wealth and power, taking a harsh and even graphic view
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'on homosexuality is a sure-fire way to appear relevant.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Let me start by being very, very clear.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Each and every people deserve to be permitted to pursue their destiny.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Unfortunately, when we got independence,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44we somehow, along the way, lost our values.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But if someone is truly traditional,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44like, for instance, a man marrying a woman
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and a woman getting married to a man and sexual intercourse, the value
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is of good character where you are honest, where you can be trusted.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Let's not pretend those values came from missionaries wearing
2:47:44 > 2:47:44black coats who arrived all the way from Britain and from France
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and from America and they brought you a Bible. Even before they...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It was nothing to do with your culture. ..we had values as Uganda.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44As all peoples do, we all have those values and gay people have them too.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've come out to tell my brothers, my sisters,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44my children what you are indulging in is hurting your life.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've counselled victims who have urinary tract infections,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44those who have had their penises operated.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've had those who have been condemned,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44their bowels are condemned,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44like this young man here. He has been condemned.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've never heard of any of these preposterous physical prolapses
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you've spoken about. They just don't exist.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That is the funniest headline I have ever seen. I have to read it out -
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"How Bum-shafting Shattered My Whopper."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44FATBOY LAUGHS
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Where would a man like this one get...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You don't need to go into details.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44..get a spare penis, get a spare rectum and anus?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44When we get back, we'll be taking...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Pastor Male, we have to take a break,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44when we get back, we'll be taking phone calls. Stay tuned.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Let's not discuss anatomy. Sorry, OK.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But for me, that's why I came out.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So, we compromise somewhere in the middle.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Oh, we're having a good time. Hmm(!)
2:47:44 > 2:47:44FATBOY LAUGHS
2:47:44 > 2:47:44My name is Fatboy, here with Shan, hoping you're enjoying
2:47:44 > 2:47:44the conversation we're having this morning.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, so, how did you think that went? To me, it was fine. Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Nothing bad is talked about, homosexuality. Very little.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But the bulk of it, the erotic experience,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44when you're getting anal sex.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But when you start talking to them,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you hear very, very sad, painful stories.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Young girls who have had what I call urinary incontinence. Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Bladders have been damaged, because they use all sorts of gadgets
2:47:44 > 2:47:44including dildos, including carrots and look at the penis
2:47:44 > 2:47:44penetrating the anus, where it was never meant to penetrate.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But why, why are you concentrating on homosexuals then?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Because most sodomy, most anal intercourse,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44takes place between men and women.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It doesn't matter. Homosexuality is not a person, it is the act.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There's nothing like someone was born a gay,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44someone was born a lesbian.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But I was born different. You were born with a penis.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes(?) And a woman is born with a vagina. Yes(?)
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The penis is supposed to penetrate the vagina, not the anus.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So you say. It's simply perversion and foolishness.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're obsessed with anuses, I'm not interested in anuses.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No, no, no, I am telling you, Fry...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But you're obsessed with anuses. I'm not interested in anuses,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm interested in men I fall in love with. When you say...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And not with anuses. Can't you understand it's about love?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No, no, no... You are so base and materialistic. It's not love.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It is love. When your penis is terrorising someone...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44My penis doesn't do that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm not interested in sodomy and buggery.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No, no, no... I am not interested, so forget about it. Fry, Fry...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're just so perverted, all you care about is penises
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and vaginas and anuses. Can you listen to me? You're so sick.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Can you listen to me? I have been and it's been a real lesson. You say you were born gay? Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You say you were born gay? Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Were you able to recognise that on the day you were born?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Of course I didn't, that's a joke.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Now, why are you lying that you were born gay. I wasn't... Oh!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44When did you first have homosexual intercourse?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've never had it. In your life? Never. Most gays don't.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're obsessed with it, that's what I keep telling you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44All you can think of is anal sex. So you never... I'm not interested.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Wait, wait, wait, you've never had a partner? Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But, we use fellatio and mutual masturbation
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and intercrural sex such as the Greeks did.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But not penetrating the arsehole. No, no, but...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're the one who's obsessed with penetrating the arsehole.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Your obsession with sodomy, it says something very peculiar about you,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44if I may say so. It's quite extraordinary. No, but...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The most peculiar thing.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You are not using your penis the way you should have used it.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Oh, it's not up to you to tell me how to use my penis.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44My penis is there to give me pleasure.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Under the cloak of caring,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you designated homosexuality to be a vicious, perverted disease
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that causes all kinds of bizarre anal and vaginal and penile...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No, no, no... You have... Homosexuality is not a disease.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's not a disease. It's an addiction.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There's a difference between a disease... OK.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44..you learn it and then you get addicted to it.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I know what these people do. "These people"? "These people"?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yeah, they are homosexuals. Oh, you are so...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'Male's attitude towards gay people makes the prospect of a law
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'that would execute us chillingly real.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'But it's reassuring to find that some Ugandans
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'have a different take on the issue.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You are very hostile, Pastor. No, no, no.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Phew.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, Fatboy, I don't know how you thought that went. How did that go?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Interesting, I think is the word.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You must, I'm assuming, know some gay people?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I know many. Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44My own position, Stephen, is actually that I want the deal to pass.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Because it's so ridiculous, you mean? Yeah. Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That's interesting. And it's going to achieve the opposite effect.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You see, if it ever were to pass, it would simply be unenforceable.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44If it were ever brought before the courts, chances are it would
2:47:44 > 2:47:44be challenged and the law would be at high risk of being repealed even.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes. And so I actually want it to pass for that reason.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That's very good thinking, I like that. I like that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And they'll have to contend with the fact that "OK, no matter
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"what legal measures we take,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"it looks like these people will always be here." Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And most people are just going to be like, "OK, you know what?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"Let's just move on, there's other things to think about in life." Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, it's wonderful to talk to you and get some clear light on this.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What you've told me has taken the slightly sour taste
2:47:44 > 2:47:44out of my mouth after dear Pastor Male.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It would be easy to write off Male as some sort of fanatic.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But preaching that homosexuality is a curable dysfunction
2:47:44 > 2:47:44has dangerous consequences.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm on my way to meet Stosh Mugisha,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44a lesbian who was raped when she was just 14 by a farmhand
2:47:44 > 2:47:44who believed that this would cure her.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's a phenomenon known as corrective rape.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And it's affecting lesbians all across Africa.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Stosh is one of the few brave enough to share her story.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There was a man who used to work at home driving tractors.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He would find me touching girls' pussies and all that and,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"I want to show you how to play with boys."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And then this guy grabs me when I was putting on shorts and...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44he tore it and he penetrated me with his penis.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And he didn't take long, this guy just got out of me
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I was bleeding and I just cried and this guy kept telling me,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"that's how you have to play with boys," and all that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I was sad and I don't know what happened later,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but I found myself sleeping and crying in my sleep.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44When my grandmum came around, I told her, "Saddam forced me..."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44he was called Saddam, "..forced me to thrust his penis into me."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"But you always play with them, football."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"You chose to..." And they left it just like that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It even got worse later,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44when they discovered I was pregnant.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So this one single rape... Yes. ..made you pregnant? Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I didn't even know the word rape back then.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Really? So, they took me to the hospital, they injected me.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So they forced an abortion on you? Yes. 1996.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Went for a checkup and I found I was positive with HIV and AIDS.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And this is the only sexual act that could have possibly... Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The only thing that could have given it to you
2:47:44 > 2:47:44was this single, brief, hideous rape... Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44..when you were young girl of 14? Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You know, I had nothing, I had no say. I couldn't say anything.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I couldn't... But it kept on, you know, hurting me. Of course.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44These people really think that I could just lie there,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I had never met a man, I'd never slept with a man. I'm sorry, sorry.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No, please don't be sorry.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm telling you the truth, I tried so hard to commit suicide.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm not surprised. Because...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44..there are very, very many things I wasn't aware of,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but I knew that someone can kill themselves.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Your life encapsulates almost every detail
2:47:44 > 2:47:44of the gay experience in Uganda,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but you are a shining example and an amazing inspiration.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And I hope anybody watching this will be as taken with you
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and as fond of you as I've become very quickly.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44How traumatised would a child be to be raped,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44in order to cure them of their inner feelings?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Which is just insane and makes no sense whatsoever.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And in that act, impregnates her with a child and with HIV.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's almost beyond the realms of the gloomiest fiction you could imagine.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44To meet someone who can live through it is really extraordinary.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44This is where the grotesque figures like Pastor Male
2:47:44 > 2:47:44stop being funny, because it's their rhetoric that builds up
2:47:44 > 2:47:44to this kind of thing, it really is.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Right now, HIV rates are soaring all across Uganda,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but the mind-boggling thing about the proposed anti-homosexuality
2:47:44 > 2:47:44bill is that gay people are now afraid to ask for treatment.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44A gay support group called Ice Breakers has had to
2:47:44 > 2:47:44step into the breach and open a clinic.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But in doing so, it has attracted the wrath of a senior
2:47:44 > 2:47:44government minister who is behaving as if the bill is already law.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"The Minister for Ethics and Integrity" - that is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Ethics and Integrity - "Simon Lokodo,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"said he intends to investigate the clinic for promoting homosexuality.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'If we find out that it is the clinic related to promoting
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'a culture which does not conform to our morals as a country,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'we shall instantly ban and close it,' he told IRIN PlusNews.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'These people, LGBTI, are doing their operations undercover.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'It is not easy to track them, however,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'we shall not allow any social gathering, association,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'infrastructure or any activities that exist to promote
2:47:44 > 2:47:44" 'homosexuality,' he said."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It seems such a pity.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Lokodo has agreed to meet me before I leave Uganda,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I will be keen to challenge him about his behaviour, including
2:47:44 > 2:47:44his threat to jail people who don't report gays to the authorities.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44In this sort of climate, it is little wonder that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Ice Breakers' whereabouts is a closely-guarded secret.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There they are, do you see them? The suits. Turn right in here.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Security clearly matters.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hey! Hi, Stephen. Hello, how are you?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44How nice to see you. Nice to see you. This is your clinic?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44This is Ice Breakers. We have the clinic, everything all in one.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And I notice you've got this gate and it is secret, basically,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44try not to let the government know about it.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There is no poster, everyone thinks it is just a home.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So you rely on a network of LGBTI people to
2:47:44 > 2:47:44inform each other that there is this place if they want rapid
2:47:44 > 2:47:44testing or advice on sexual health and things like that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes, it is a network, it is kind of underground
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but everyone knows exactly where to find us.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The bill, as it stands, you have 24 hours to report somebody
2:47:44 > 2:47:44being gay, and if you don't you can have a huge fine or imprisonment.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44If this got passed into law,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you would apparently be breaking the law.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It has become a challenge to us,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because if they say it is a law for me to go and report that this
2:47:44 > 2:47:44one is a homosexual, that means they have to change our laws.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44As a medical practitioner, you have taken the oath.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We have to keep confidentiality of each and every one.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I was reading a quotation from
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Lokodo, The Minister of Integrity and Ethics, in big inverted
2:47:44 > 2:47:44commas, and he said he had heard of you and he thought you were
2:47:44 > 2:47:44there to promote homosexuality, and his intention was to close you down.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes. We don't think they'll really come out,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because there is nothing illegal we are doing,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but maybe just to prove a point of defiance, they can come and raid us.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We can't resist them because they are more powerful than us.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Soon they'll get tired of clamping down on us. We aren't going to stop.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It is fantastically brave. We won't stop.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44While the health aspect of Ice Breakers' work
2:47:44 > 2:47:44has become increasingly crucial, its other function
2:47:44 > 2:47:44as a safe space for young gay people is now more important than ever.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You feel accepted, it's safe, you can be yourself, you can
2:47:44 > 2:47:44talk about your relationship, how you feel, talk about the way we dress.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes. You know?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44They say it's what we do with our community of telling them
2:47:44 > 2:47:44about HIV and all that, we really still come here
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because we feel safe, we feel accepted here.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44In this...environment.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What's so revealing is that the insane homophobia,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44the people who drafted this bill, convinced that everywhere is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44a conspiracy of erotic orgy, and in fact, what you do is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44talk about friendship, feelings, and love, fashion, gossip. You know?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's not about sex, I don't know why they're so obsessed with it.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44They are not ignorant, they know perfectly well that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44gay people pose no threat to the children and families of Uganda.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44They know perfectly well that gay people don't recruit.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So they are deliberately telling lies to make themselves popular
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and to make their voices loud.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Exactly. It keeps them going, it keeps their business thriving.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Shameful. Truly shameful.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I have to admit,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm slightly dreading my meeting with Simon Lokodo,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44the former Catholic priest who is now Uganda's Minister for Ethics and
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Integrity, and hellbent on crushing his country's gay community.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Who knows where I'm to go?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I shall try and be civil.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'd like to find out how he could possibly support this
2:47:44 > 2:47:44barbaric bill, but I'm not sure he will take to explaining
2:47:44 > 2:47:44himself to a gay Western liberal like me. How do you do? Good.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44How do you do? Good. My name is Stephen. Hello, Stephen.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I've come with the BBC.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I want to tell you, point blank, that there is no way you can
2:47:44 > 2:47:44impose your attitude to me. I don't want to. I'm asking questions.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I am a typical Ugandan, and my role and mandate here is to
2:47:44 > 2:47:44empower Ugandans to uphold the moral values and principles.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And we don't discriminate, however, we say, please, please, it is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44already bad that you are in that status.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Don't promote, don't recruit,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44don't encourage others to come into your very unfortunate state.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44This is what is unique in Uganda,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44this extraordinary idea of yours of promotion.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44All my life, I was subjected to indoctrination of how to be
2:47:44 > 2:47:44heterosexual. It never worked on me. If you're born that way...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What I'm telling you... You're born gay or you're born straight.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Just let people be! You're taking me for one who should come to join you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No, I don't want you to join me! I have no wish for you to join me.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44In this country,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44anybody who manifests themselves gay must be checked.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I don't want one more homosexual in the world, I just want each
2:47:44 > 2:47:44one to be treated with love and dignity.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Not with hatred, not with raids, accusing them of recruiting
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and accusing them of recruiting children.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What are the values that we get from homosexuality? What do you get?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44A life from Christianity? Love. Love?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44When you destroy the back of your brother? Destroy the what?!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The back of your brother. The back?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes, I've got my dear brothers who have come here
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because their backs are oozing with pus.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44STEPHEN LAUGHS
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Most sodomy takes place in heterosexual life!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That is in Europe. No, all around the world. In Africa, never.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There's no rape in Africa, is there?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No young girls being raped in Africa? There are thousands of them.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So surely heterosexuality is far more dangerous to children
2:47:44 > 2:47:44than homosexuality, far more.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's a country where heterosexual rape is almost endemic.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I say let them do it, but... Oh, let them do it?!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Let them do it the right way.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Let them do it the right way?! Let them rape children the right way?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What are you talking about?!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44No! I'm saying, at least it is natural way of desiring sex.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Oh, that's OK then. No!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44For two men who wish,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44who consent to have sex together in private is bad, but it's
2:47:44 > 2:47:44OK for a man to rape a woman because at least it is the right way.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're giving two comparisons which don't meet.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Those comparisons don't compare at all.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That's what you said to me. You said, "Let them do it the right way."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But what I'm telling you is, it is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44not permissible in Uganda for single sex relationships, finished.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And if you are advocating that, I'm sorry,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I will treat you as a destructor of Uganda's ideologies.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Homosexuality is fantastic, you should try it. It's really good fun.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I will arrest you. I will arrest you. I am the law here.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm not having sex with people. I wouldn't want someone who wasn't gay not to have it,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but if you are, it is wonderful.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Thank you. I hope everything goes well for Uganda. OK, thank you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But for the gays, will you stay away from us?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, that was lively.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He regards my view as an imposition on his country, and in a sense,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44he is absolutely right, if he wants to look at it like that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Taking a more international, cosmopolitan approach
2:47:44 > 2:47:44in terms of international human rights, I think I'm right.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He did wind me up, of course he did, because he's an idiot. You know?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44This idea that we recruit and promote, it is the only one
2:47:44 > 2:47:44they can use to convince the ignorant that somehow
2:47:44 > 2:47:44homosexuals are a threat, because there is no other way they are.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's just so dishonest, so wrong.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm none the wiser as to what is really behind Lokodo's
2:47:44 > 2:47:44hatred of gay people.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He just kept repeating his mantra about promotion and recruitment
2:47:44 > 2:47:44as if being gay is something you can talk people into or out of.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Perversely, the philosophy that underpins this twisted idea
2:47:44 > 2:47:44comes from the land that gave birth to gay liberation,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and that's where I'm heading now.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44America is the home of reparative therapy,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44a therapy that claims it can change people from gay to straight
2:47:44 > 2:47:44through a series of sessions costing $140 a pop.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Its most prominent practitioner, Joseph Nicolosi, is based here in LA, and I wanted
2:47:44 > 2:47:44to meet one of his patients, who had managed to reverse his sexuality.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I was home one weekend,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I said, "I am but I don't want to be homosexual." Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And how did you respond to that? My heart broke.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Because I knew his life would be more difficult than
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I would want for my child. Yes. I begged God to make me straight.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I would serve him for the rest of my life if he took these
2:47:44 > 2:47:44homosexual attractions away from me, and it never did anything.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I felt as though I had been a good Christian, and I'd been
2:47:44 > 2:47:44faithful and it had not worked, so I needed to try something different.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That was reparative therapy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I eventually came upon Dr Nicolosi's book in my university library,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and basically sat down, read the whole thing in one sitting.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I hadn't heard of Nicolosi, I knew nothing about reparative therapy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But I had such respect for Daniel and who he was,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that that's what he needed to do.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I would support him.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Presumably, he's trying to prepare you for a moment
2:47:44 > 2:47:44when you're walking on the street, and there is a guy,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and he gives you a set of tools, apparently, to deal with that. Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You would ask yourself,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44what characteristic of that guy do I find most attractive?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And you take those characteristics and say, well,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44what internal faults in myself do those represent?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What you're seeing is a mirror of the things you lack. Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And for how long did you see him? How many sessions?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Was it every couple of years?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44From start to finish, it was about a year and a half.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Are you now in a state where you're actually happy with who you are?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes. Since then, I've been satisfied with my sexuality.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, I'm off to see Dr Joseph Nicolosi, who is the director,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I believe, of the St Thomas Aquinas clinic.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44One of the founding members of NARTH, which is the
2:47:44 > 2:47:44National Association for Research and Therapy for Homosexuality.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He uses the rather confusing phrase,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"gay people can come out of their homosexuality."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44They can come out of their coming out.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Naturally, I'm not disposed to favour him,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but I'm going to let him see what he has to say and listen to it,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I'm not here to have a fight.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's really just to see
2:47:44 > 2:47:44whether he thinks there is something scientific underlying his work.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hello. Hi, I'm Stephen Fry from the BBC. I'm here to see Dr Nicolosi.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Thank you very much.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hi, how are you? Dr Nicolosi, hello. Stephen Fry. Nice to meet you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Thank you very much.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Come on in. What a gorgeous view you have, it is almost unbelievable.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Thank you. You can sit on the right here. Super.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's nice to be here. Good to have you here.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You offer a practice which heals, reverses,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'd like to know the vocabulary you prefer to describe the work you do.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yes. Resolves. Resolves.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We resolve the conflicts that are behind the homosexual
2:47:44 > 2:47:44attractions, that's what we do. Right.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're pretty much of the opinion, I assume therefore,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that homosexuality is a nurture.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That's right. We believe it's based on trauma.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You're really going to have to look hard to find a trauma.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's an accusation of some sort of parental going-wrong.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That's what we believe. We believe it's about the parents.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The boy does not disidentify with the mother
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and does not bond with the father.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We don't believe he was born gay.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44If, tomorrow, a gay gene is discovered, you're going
2:47:44 > 2:47:44to feel a bit silly, aren't you? No, I won't feel silly at all.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44They will still have to explain all the homosexuals that were
2:47:44 > 2:47:44successfully treated.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Would you say that you have a kind of percentage that you can
2:47:44 > 2:47:44demonstrate of success and failure rate?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We say a third, a third, a third.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44A third, no change, a third, significant improvement,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44a third, cure.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Is there an age at which...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We are getting more and more teenagers, adolescents.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I would say about 60% of clients are teenagers.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Parents call up in a panic
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because they found out their son is looking at gay porn.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And of course, we have to get him into therapy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The momentum and the enthusiasm of the gay movement sometimes
2:47:44 > 2:47:44sweeps up young adolescents into that identity when it's premature.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Imagine I'm coming to see you to explore the possibility that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I might find my inner straight person, if there is such a being.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44How would you begin? What is the therapeutic process?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Many of these clients are able to trace their traumatic origins
2:47:44 > 2:47:44back to the father.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44My father never cared about me, my father never loved me,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44he never seemed interested in me, I was trying to get the three As.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Attention, affection, approval.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Right. And those emotional needs became sexualised.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44The thing that puzzles me, because I can't picture it in myself is, when
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you close your eyes and masturbate, what images come into your head?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Are you saying you can actually reprogram that?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Because that is basically, what gives you an erection,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44what excites you. Yes. Exactly.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That's exactly the reparative therapy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We will say to them,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44for example, have you ever had heterosexual attraction? Yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"Well, when I was 13 years old, there was this little girl at school."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Can you feel a little something? Good. Triangle of containment.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hold the picture of that girl, stay with your body,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44stay connected to me. Stay with it.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I did a telephone session with a 17-year-old boy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He says, "I now look at gay porn, I cannot get aroused."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"I cannot get aroused." Right. Right, what?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44That means the therapy is working. Clearly, yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm also interested in the phenomenon that has become
2:47:44 > 2:47:44known in the last 20 years as metrosexual,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and without being the least bit offensive,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'd say you fit that rather well, you're very well groomed,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you look, I mean, you could easily pass as a gay man.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44For all his talk of success,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Nicolosi is unable to find ONE of his ex-gays to talk to us.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Dan Gonzales is actually not one of his success stories,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and these days, is a confirmed ex-ex-gay.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44He and his mother Carol now campaign against the dangers
2:47:44 > 2:47:44of reparative therapy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You take the people who are on the posters for ex-gay programs,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and not even they will tell you that they are 100% straight.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44They give you these bizarre,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44convoluted answers about how they love women, love their wife
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but are not physically attracted to a woman walking down the street.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You get these bizarre answers. That is not heterosexuality.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And not to mention damaging.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Because every time you feel attracted to someone, that is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44supposedly a reminder of how you are broken.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And what it doesn't cover, for me,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and for most gay people I know, ultimately, being gay,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44like any other part of being human, is about love.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Was that ever addressed? The nature of love?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Or was it always about sexual attraction
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and how you get rid of that?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It was always just about sexual attraction, how you get rid of that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I came to the point where I realised there was nothing wrong with it,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I didn't need to change and I couldn't change.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Did that mean also that you had to abandon your faith?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I had to abandon my faith. Right.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Can I ask, on personal matters, have you had a partner,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44do you have a partner?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm single at the moment, but I have dated and had boyfriends, yes.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Nice boys? You liked them? Oh, yes! Dan has good taste. I'm sure he does.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm sure he does!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What is your feeling, all told, Carol, would you say,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44about Dr Nicolosi and his programme?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I think he should be ashamed of himself. Right.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I can see you are angry.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Reparative therapy makes the assumption that being gay
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is a problem for which families are somehow to blame.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But, for me, this is an argument that just doesn't add up.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I have two parents whom I completely adore,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44my mother is the warmest, loveliest,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44kindest person in the world, my father is equally wonderful.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Although, I will confess, he was, I felt, very cold towards me and
2:47:44 > 2:47:44my brother, incidentally, when we were young, and I was scared of him.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So in that sense, yes, he's on the money,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I had that kind of father, but so did my brother, you know?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's just not good enough. And I don't think it really matters.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I think the point is that if there is a problem,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44it is with society, because that is the reason
2:47:44 > 2:47:44gay people are afraid to come out,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44it's the reason reparative therapy can exist,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is because there is a culture, or there is a worldview, or there is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44a religious doctrine out there which speaks in a strong voice to condemn.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And young people are very vulnerable.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I have no sympathy with gay people who tell a 14-year-old
2:47:44 > 2:47:44they are gay and must accept it, but I have no sympathy with one
2:47:44 > 2:47:44who tells a 14-year-old that they are not gay and they must accept it.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It is bad enough being adolescent most of the time, than to
2:47:44 > 2:47:44have interested parties from either group trying to recruit you.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I couldn't leave Hollywood without some exploration
2:47:44 > 2:47:44of how the movie capital of the world deals with homosexuality.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44We've all heard the rumours about A-list stars hiding in the
2:47:44 > 2:47:44closet, but would actors really feel the need to do that nowadays?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44There's always a big question in people's minds -
2:47:44 > 2:47:44if you're a male gay actor and you come out
2:47:44 > 2:47:44does it reduce the number of parts you can play, does it mean
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you can only suddenly play the camp best friend or some sort of villain?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Can you play a romantic lead, can you have a full career?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Is it fair to ask gay actors to have to come out?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Are they hypocrites for hiding their sexuality?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I don't know. I'd be anxious to find out.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44# The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain
2:47:44 > 2:47:44# I think she's got it... #
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Maybe hiding your sexuality is warranted in Hollywood
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because the audience wants to believe
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that the romantic lead or action hero is the real straight deal.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44# Now, once again - where does it rain?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44# On the plain, on the plain... #
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'I'm on my way to meet a man who helps actors hide
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'the telltale signs of a gay sexuality.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hello. Hello. How are you?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'But I'm most curious to know about the psychological impact of a life spent peeking out of the closet.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44One of the things I know you do, which is fascinating,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is that you help actors who feel that their voices are
2:47:44 > 2:47:44as it were perhaps a little too camp,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and they feel that's holding them back in terms of the amount of work they can get.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, you know, sometimes they come on their own,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44sometimes it's a producer, agents, managers -
2:47:44 > 2:47:44"We're not getting the jobs that we think we should get..." Right.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's just like teaching an accent.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It doesn't really change who YOU are -
2:47:44 > 2:47:44if everybody THINKS that you're Southern,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that means you did a good job, it doesn't mean you're Southern.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'Today, Bob is seeing a new client called David Ross,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'a former member of British boy band Bad Boys Inc,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'who's now trying to carve a career in Hollywood.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Tell me what you'd like me to help you with.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Erm, I think the main thing that I have going on is that I, erm...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I'm constantly self-monitoring,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I really thought that it was to do with my career and being in a band - I used to be in a boy band
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and was told that I couldn't act a certain way or talk a certain way.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44What did they say, you can't do what?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Oh, God, I couldn't walk down certain streets, I couldn't flick my hair a certain way,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I couldn't, erm... Obviously couldn't talk about certain things.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So tell me what you'd like me to help you with.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Erm... Just being so self-conscious. I mean, obviously there's an element of self-consciousness to being
2:47:44 > 2:47:44an actor and being a performer, but, you know, if I cross my legs
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is that too English, or is that gay? I don't know.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I can cross my legs like this, or shall I cross my legs like this?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, what do you think? I think it should be like this.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I should at least sit like this. Why would it be better that way?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Just so you seem more straight, which seems ridiculous.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, you don't seem particularly effeminate. I don't see a big physical problem.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I mean, I know it's easier to say than to do,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but I think you need to come to peace.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You were a member of a boy band, managed by someone who obviously didn't want you to come out,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44didn't want... You had girl fans, and you were a huge success.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44And I think it's the residue of that that you've still got with your acting, isn't it?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Oh, absolutely. It's what comes with being in the public eye, and being in the closet.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44You just felt fake all the time.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's fascinating. And I feel very honoured that you've come and been on camera
2:47:44 > 2:47:44talking about this to us, because that in a kind of way IS coming out.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44HE LAUGHS There's no going back in!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, good - well, then, go for it. Yeah.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Go for it, because listen, there are gay actors all over town that are working.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44While Bob's probably right, I think many of these actors are still choosing to live in the closet.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But there is an actor in this town whose coming out could be a sign
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that things are changing in Hollywood.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Neil Patrick Harris now lives an openly gay life with his partner and their surrogate twins.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Yet in How I Met Your Mother, he continues to play perhaps
2:47:44 > 2:47:44the straightest and most prolific womaniser on American television.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Well, Neil, people of my generation remember you very well
2:47:44 > 2:47:44as a child actor, you played Doogie Howser, MD, this prodigy
2:47:44 > 2:47:44which you kind of WERE a prodigy, because you sing, you dance, you act...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Had you thought through the idea
2:47:44 > 2:47:44when you did come out that it might affect your career adversely,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and that maybe you might not have the full range of roles available for you?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It would be idiotic of me to say that that hadn't crossed my mind or wasn't a concern.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44If you're on a TV show, or an action hero in a movie,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44people with billions of dollars are hoping that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44it catches on in a way that makes them billions of more dollars, and so they are cautious,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and I get that. So yes, if you're super-campy and fey and effete and
2:47:44 > 2:47:44want to play the football quarterback...
2:47:44 > 2:47:44It's not going to happen. ..I can see you getting upset that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you're not getting cast in those parts and it's probably because you're gay.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So you as it were got away with it being
2:47:44 > 2:47:44almost a yawn from the public rather than a kind of shock,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44which must have been a relief I should imagine. Very much so,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I was anticipating outrage, and in turn I got indifference.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I was like, "Wait a second! Didn't you hear?"
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So, I suppose all eyes are on you in a way
2:47:44 > 2:47:44because of the fact that you seem to be breaking this image people have
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that gay actors can't play straight - you've not only done it once
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but you've got more films coming out in which you're doing it again.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44So, you know, are you conscious of this, do you think you might be changing the world?
2:47:44 > 2:47:44At the end of the day, if the things that I've currently been in
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and are about to come out make a lot of money,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44then all of a sudden it'll look like I'm this gay actor that can
2:47:44 > 2:47:44play straight roles and I'm suddenly like, that guy -
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but if one of the movies flops
2:47:44 > 2:47:44then all of a sudden it looks like, "Oh, see..."
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I like to give people more credit than to think that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44they're just going to watch me and think about...sodomy.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44I hope I can amuse people more than that!
2:47:44 > 2:47:44STEPHEN LAUGHS Let's hope.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44But I'm not in control of those kind of things.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Neil's optimism about the movie-going public
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is encouraging, and I guess with his films
2:47:44 > 2:47:44due for release in the coming year, we'll soon learn if the world's
2:47:44 > 2:47:44ready for an openly gay actor in the role of a straight leading man.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44How we react to the films may also tell us
2:47:44 > 2:47:44something of how society as a whole sees its gay community.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44For all its faults, Hollywood is a pretty accurate
2:47:44 > 2:47:44reflection of the way most of the world is looking, and the fact that
2:47:44 > 2:47:44they can have actors who are openly gay, openly camply gay,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44is not something you should thank or congratulate Hollywood for,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44you thank and congratulate the culture
2:47:44 > 2:47:44that Hollywood recognises, accepts things like that.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Hollywood is the thermometer that is
2:47:44 > 2:47:44thrust up the anus of the world sensibility.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Things DO move forward. It's three steps forward, two steps back,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44but in the end it is always progress.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44People learn.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44MUSIC: "I Wan'na Be Like You (The Monkey Song)" by Louis Prima
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'Next time, I'm in Brazil...'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44INAUDIBLE
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'..at the biggest gay celebration in the world.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'I travel to India, where they're celebrating the end
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'of British colonial laws which criminalised gays.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'And I'm in Russia,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44'where life for gay people is taking a turn for the worst.'
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Look at Putin, look at Dobby the house-elf,
2:47:44 > 2:47:44and remember that's all he is, he's a little house-elf.
2:47:44 > 2:47:44Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd