0:00:02 > 0:00:12This programme contains strong language and scenes which some viewers may find disturbing.
0:00:26 > 0:00:27MAN TYPES
0:00:30 > 0:00:32CROWD CHEER AND SING
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Dear Tata Mandela, I must have been seven years old
0:00:40 > 0:00:44when I first heard your name, Nelson Mandela.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47You were this mysterious figure who captured my imagination.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50You came to symbolise our struggle for freedom.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56I stand here before you
0:00:56 > 0:00:58not as a prophet,
0:00:59 > 0:01:05but as a humble servant of you, the people.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18Growing up in a village in Limpopo in the 1980s,
0:01:18 > 0:01:21my late grandmother spoke about you
0:01:21 > 0:01:24as this revolutionary who was going to free us from apartheid.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31She always spoke in harsh tones
0:01:31 > 0:01:34for fear of being detained or killed.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38I was warned never to mention your name, even to my friends.
0:01:38 > 0:01:43You became my hero, and from that moment, I was curious about you.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45All the images of you were banned,
0:01:45 > 0:01:49so I started to imagine you as this character from folk tales -
0:01:49 > 0:01:54half-man, half-beast, with one huge eye in the middle of your forehead
0:01:54 > 0:01:57that could see everything, an all seeing-eye.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01You were strong and you would crush your enemies.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14I remember going to town with my grandparents in the 1980s.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17I remember being confused
0:02:17 > 0:02:20as to why my grandparents stood at the window to buy stuff,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23while white people went right into the store.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27I witnessed a few times
0:02:27 > 0:02:30how young white kids spoke rudely to my grandparents.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Their humiliation was palpable, their anger was silent
0:02:35 > 0:02:37and their pain was unbearable.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Every nation bears the burden of history and memory.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52What should we remember and what should we forget,
0:02:52 > 0:02:53and who decides?
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Tata Mandela, did you have to take on a different identity
0:03:00 > 0:03:03and become a new person in order to transcend the past?
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Nelson Mandela has amazing magnetism.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22When you're in his presence, he looks at you and he greets you,
0:03:22 > 0:03:24and you think he recognises you.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27You think he knows who you are, and sometimes maybe he does
0:03:27 > 0:03:29because you're a very familiar face.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32Sometimes he has no clue, you know, and that's fine.
0:03:32 > 0:03:37But he has that leadership quality, that magnetic quality,
0:03:37 > 0:03:40that photogenic quality that makes a leader loved.
0:03:41 > 0:03:42The people's man.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45I wanted to write this letter to him.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49So I wrote this letter and it was published "Dear Madiba",
0:03:49 > 0:03:53just saying how I felt about his five years in office.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55When he saw me the next day he said,
0:03:55 > 0:03:58"Hmm, you've written me a love letter, hey?"
0:03:58 > 0:04:01I said, "Yes, sir, I thought I should write you a love letter".
0:04:01 > 0:04:06So he says, "Well, I think I should get you to marry me".
0:04:06 > 0:04:08And of course we just laughed, you know?
0:04:08 > 0:04:13He was always very, very charming and flirtatious,
0:04:13 > 0:04:17but also very...I mean, anybody who says
0:04:17 > 0:04:23"Oh, he's all conciliatory and loving, and wonderful",
0:04:23 > 0:04:24I don't see that.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27He is ice cold...
0:04:27 > 0:04:32and as, you know, as cold as ice.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34Cold as ice!
0:04:34 > 0:04:38I tried to argue with Madiba a couple of times,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42and you had to be pretty brave to try to stand up to him.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Nobody else really stood by,
0:04:45 > 0:04:48everybody was very quiet.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50People didn't want to cross him.
0:04:50 > 0:04:57He had an anger about him, a strong temper.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01He's forgiving, and if he flared up with you,
0:05:01 > 0:05:04as he did with me on two occasions,
0:05:04 > 0:05:09and you went to complain to him afterwards,
0:05:10 > 0:05:17you then found him smiling and giving you a nice little pat on the back.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21"Ronnie, don't worry about it. What I said, I said in that meeting.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23"Now, don't worry about it. Forget it."
0:05:23 > 0:05:27But he had achieved what he set out to do, to demolish my argument.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Really wonderful.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34His face, his eyes,
0:05:34 > 0:05:39we see the, I think, the non-violence principle,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43and the quite sort of wise thinking
0:05:43 > 0:05:49reflects in his face and his eyes.
0:05:52 > 0:05:58This one almost seems like a kind of monk, fasting for this target,
0:05:58 > 0:05:59something like that.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03I felt like he would look stern.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05He'd look like a stern person,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08somebody who lives within his principles,
0:06:08 > 0:06:13eats vegetables or water, you know, something like that.
0:06:13 > 0:06:20He enhances in me the desire to be good in the way he talks
0:06:20 > 0:06:22and the octave that he uses, or his voice.
0:06:22 > 0:06:27I have to say, with it comes...
0:06:27 > 0:06:31a frustration of some sort.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46The frustration I have when I see on the television
0:06:46 > 0:06:50all these, you know, stars standing next to him.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56Does it make them feel better about, you know, themselves, or...?
0:06:56 > 0:07:00I have no idea, I just feel that there's something wrong, really,
0:07:00 > 0:07:01going on with that.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09There isn't enough space for the revolutionary,
0:07:09 > 0:07:11there isn't enough space for arguing,
0:07:11 > 0:07:13for taking up arms, there isn't enough space
0:07:13 > 0:07:16for talking about land and real redress in that narrative.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20No, we only have space for the man who doesn't like suits, and children.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23So even the icons of that narrative
0:07:23 > 0:07:27exist in this kind of teddy bear old man,
0:07:27 > 0:07:31laughing, crying, soft selves.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37There is a perception that South Africa is a miracle country,
0:07:37 > 0:07:39but there were no miracles.
0:07:39 > 0:07:43People fought for freedom and people paid a huge price.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45The land is stained with blood.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50REPORTER: 'This is Mandela's first television interview.'
0:07:54 > 0:07:57'I asked him what it was that the African really wanted.'
0:07:57 > 0:08:02The Africans require, want,
0:08:03 > 0:08:07the franchise, on the basis of one man, one vote.
0:08:07 > 0:08:08They want political independence.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10There are many people who feel
0:08:10 > 0:08:13that it is useless and futile
0:08:13 > 0:08:16for us to continue talking peace and non-violence
0:08:16 > 0:08:21against a government whose reply is only savage attacks
0:08:21 > 0:08:24on an unarmed and defenceless people.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40Tata Mandela, how do you feel about interacting
0:08:40 > 0:08:45with the very same people who once labelled you as a terrorist?
0:08:47 > 0:08:51There are MPs, Conservative MPs, who, in their student days,
0:08:51 > 0:08:54used to wear "Hang Nelson Mandela" badges,
0:08:54 > 0:08:58for whom Mandela was a terrorist and they wanted him,
0:08:58 > 0:09:02if not locked up for ever, then probably executed.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07Now he's everybody's favourite uncle, he's the hero.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10There was confusion and controversy
0:09:10 > 0:09:13here in the United States
0:09:13 > 0:09:17as to whether Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21I would never have used such a characterisation, but many did.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23But you'd never find anyone in the United States
0:09:23 > 0:09:25who would even want to admit that they did that.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29The question of how he helped to resolve, peacefully,
0:09:29 > 0:09:34the conflict in South Africa, is one of his greatest achievements.
0:09:34 > 0:09:39But it mustn't be permitted to conceal
0:09:39 > 0:09:43this militant man of the people.
0:09:43 > 0:09:48MANDELA: I have fought against white domination.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51And I have...
0:09:51 > 0:09:54I was a teenager when I first heard your voice.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58Someone made me listen to your Rivonia trial speech.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02It was inspiring, and I listened to your voice again and again.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05..of a democratic and free society
0:10:05 > 0:10:10in which all persons will live together
0:10:10 > 0:10:15in harmony and with equal opportunities.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18It is an ideal
0:10:18 > 0:10:23for which I hope to live for,
0:10:23 > 0:10:28and to see realised.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31But, my lord,
0:10:31 > 0:10:34if it need be,
0:10:34 > 0:10:38it is an ideal
0:10:38 > 0:10:43for which I am prepared to die.
0:10:44 > 0:10:49When I was born, you had already been in prison for over a decade
0:10:49 > 0:10:51and yet in my grandmother's eyes, you were a hero.
0:10:53 > 0:10:54I never questioned her wisdom.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12My grandmother was overprotective of me
0:11:12 > 0:11:15and I stayed in the house all the time with her.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18Most of the time, nothing happened,
0:11:18 > 0:11:22but once in a while I would see an army truck driving past
0:11:22 > 0:11:27carrying young, white soldiers, their guns sticking out.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30I would feel my grandmother's hand tugging at mine
0:11:30 > 0:11:34as she dragged me away into the safety of the house.
0:11:37 > 0:11:38DEMONSTRATORS SING
0:11:59 > 0:12:02Tata Mandela, while you were incarcerated,
0:12:02 > 0:12:07young people driven by a sense of urgency and yearning for freedom
0:12:07 > 0:12:09took the apartheid regime head on.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15Some had been inspired by your example of militant youth.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Some were killed, while others were detained.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22Do you know what happened to some of that generation?
0:12:28 > 0:12:31For three months, we were in hiding,
0:12:31 > 0:12:35and after three months they found us and arrested us.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39I was a young journalist
0:12:39 > 0:12:44and I suddenly found myself in this...in the belly of the beast
0:12:44 > 0:12:46of what was apartheid.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52And so then they did exactly what I was fearing,
0:12:52 > 0:12:57that they would use my pregnancy in the whole interrogation process.
0:12:58 > 0:13:03Basically, they tried to wear me down,
0:13:03 > 0:13:07interrogated me constantly, etc.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10But then, eventually, when they couldn't get me to co-operate
0:13:10 > 0:13:13and this time I did have information,
0:13:13 > 0:13:16and this time it was very definite information,
0:13:16 > 0:13:18they finally came up with this idea
0:13:18 > 0:13:21that they were preparing this chemical for me to drink
0:13:21 > 0:13:23that would burn the baby from my body.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29That was probably the hardest moment for me,
0:13:29 > 0:13:33because that was the moment when I had to decide,
0:13:33 > 0:13:38"What are the choices that I make? Do I let my child die,
0:13:38 > 0:13:44"or do I let my child live and send a whole lot of people to jail?"
0:13:45 > 0:13:47It was almost like no choice.
0:13:51 > 0:13:52I decided to say to them
0:13:52 > 0:13:56"Well, do what you have to do. Do what you have to do."
0:13:58 > 0:14:02Of course, I remember them clearly. I remember their eyes.
0:14:02 > 0:14:07I see the eyes of very cruel, vicious men.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16Sometimes in a crowd, I see them. Of course it's not them,
0:14:16 > 0:14:22but I see somebody who looks like one of them, and then I'm terrified.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27The one that tortured myself and my husband
0:14:27 > 0:14:32and others in '85, he actually met with my husband,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35and he sent a message to say, you know,
0:14:35 > 0:14:39something like he wanted bygones to be bygones,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42and he wanted to find out how my child was.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47How can you find out how the child was that you wanted to kill?!
0:15:11 > 0:15:17Tata Mandela, whenever I go back to my village, I get depressed.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19I'm moved by the poverty,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23and shocked at the cemeteries bursting with my childhood friends.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27Should I dare ask, whose freedom is it?
0:15:27 > 0:15:30Was the struggle for all or was the struggle for a few?
0:15:48 > 0:15:51I couldn't believe it. It was impossible.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56When they told me that my sister had died in the bomb blast,
0:15:57 > 0:16:02I wouldn't believe it because my sister was not the military type.
0:16:04 > 0:16:11She was very feminine, and liked clothing and socialising.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16I could not imagine my sister doing military training
0:16:16 > 0:16:23and getting involved with bombs or guns.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26I dismissed it immediately.
0:16:28 > 0:16:36When we got to the mortuary, they led me round the corridor,
0:16:36 > 0:16:38which curved to your left.
0:16:40 > 0:16:41And...
0:16:43 > 0:16:48there was a cloth over my sister's body,
0:16:48 > 0:16:53and they opened it up and asked me to identify her body.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56At first, it didn't look like her
0:16:56 > 0:17:01and they said it was the best they could do to put it together.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07Her eyes were out of her sockets.
0:17:07 > 0:17:11Her mouth was open.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13Um...
0:17:24 > 0:17:29I was...I lost my emotions. I couldn't cry, I couldn't...
0:17:33 > 0:17:34It was almost like I was...
0:17:39 > 0:17:43I was a broken human in the sense of having no emotions.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51I'm an artist, I've been to art school.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54And I've tried drawing my sister.
0:17:55 > 0:17:59And I can only draw what I saw in the morgue.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03I can't draw my sister as a whole person.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12South Africa was created by its people,
0:18:12 > 0:18:16not by one individual's greatness.
0:18:18 > 0:18:25There were too many sacrifices, and it was a unified struggle.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30And we can't give all the glory to one person.
0:18:36 > 0:18:41# Free Nelson Mandela
0:18:42 > 0:18:46# Free
0:18:46 > 0:18:49# Free
0:18:49 > 0:18:55# Free, free, free Nelson Mandela. #
0:18:55 > 0:18:58I remember being in London.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01It was not long after I'd come out of hospital
0:19:01 > 0:19:05after I was blown up in 1988.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09And it was the Free Mandela concert at Wembley.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14# Free Nelson Mandela
0:19:17 > 0:19:22# Free Nelson Mandela
0:19:30 > 0:19:34And I didn't know what you do at a pop concert.
0:19:34 > 0:19:35I'd never been to one.
0:19:35 > 0:19:40I belonged to the classical music and jazz kind of grouping.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44Do you stand up? Do you wave?
0:19:44 > 0:19:4970,000 young people and me, and it was fantastic.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53# Free Nelson Mandela!
0:19:53 > 0:19:55And the cheering just went on for hours and hours.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58These were supposed to be the yobbos,
0:19:58 > 0:20:00the youth of England who had no idealism,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02only interested in material things.
0:20:02 > 0:20:07And here they were, inspired by that individual.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11So it wasn't anything that he actually said in particular
0:20:11 > 0:20:15that they were responding to. It was what he stood for.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18The symbol of Mandela became, in that sense,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21more powerful than the reality of Mandela.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30I remember the day you were released from prison vividly.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34By then I was a teenager, living with my mother in Johannesburg.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I watched your release on television.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42When you finally came out, you looked normal, like my grandfather.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45You looked frail, but you were waving and smiling at the crowds.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53I remember, when he came out of prison
0:20:53 > 0:20:54I was there, covering the story.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57The great anxiety for a lot of people
0:20:57 > 0:20:59was that he simply couldn't possibly live up
0:20:59 > 0:21:03to this enormous legendary myth that had been built up about him.
0:21:03 > 0:21:04Yet the remarkable thing was,
0:21:04 > 0:21:07as we saw in that very first press conference
0:21:07 > 0:21:10on the morning after his release, at the home of Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
0:21:10 > 0:21:12he actually exceeded the myth.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15He has this sort of tremendous sense of himself,
0:21:15 > 0:21:21like a great Shakespearean or Greek dramatic hero.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27RADIO NEWS JINGLE
0:21:27 > 0:21:29'Good morning.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32'It's expected that only family members
0:21:32 > 0:21:34'will be visiting Madiba in hospital today...'
0:21:36 > 0:21:40I must say, I was disappointed by the image I saw of you.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42I always imagined that as my superhero,
0:21:42 > 0:21:47you would somehow find a way to break down the prison walls.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50You would lead an army made up of our people.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52We would then walk through my village,
0:21:52 > 0:21:56arms aloft, victorious after defeating the enemy.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01But I was surprised by the restraint and gentle tone of your voice.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05Where was the fire in your voice? Where was the anger?
0:22:12 > 0:22:17MANDELA: Your tireless and heroic sacrifices
0:22:17 > 0:22:20have made it possible
0:22:20 > 0:22:24for me to be here today.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29I therefore have placed
0:22:29 > 0:22:33the remaining years of my life
0:22:33 > 0:22:36in your hands.
0:22:36 > 0:22:37CHEERING
0:22:44 > 0:22:48I remember hearing people singing as they marched past my mother's flat.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50There was such an excitement.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56I had so many unanswered questions.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59You had just come out of prison after 27 years.
0:22:59 > 0:23:05You had sacrificed all - your wife, your children and your career.
0:23:05 > 0:23:11I went to join the crowd. The spirit of the moment took over.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15We were very focused
0:23:15 > 0:23:18on South Africa being the centre of the world in those days.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22And I knew at that moment, our world had changed.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24And it was an unknown future.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27But it had to be a future that was better than our past.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09BABY CRIES
0:24:19 > 0:24:21Politicians remind people from time to time that "You're free.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25"1994 freed you. Nelson Mandela freed you", you know.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29They drum that into people's minds and they end up believing it.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Even though they stay in the dampest place on earth,
0:24:33 > 0:24:36surviving on pap and cabbage every day,
0:24:36 > 0:24:40living in the most degrading and appalling conditions,
0:24:40 > 0:24:45they will believe that they are free.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48And the answer would be: Freed from what?
0:25:44 > 0:25:47Nelson Mandela was a mantra.
0:25:47 > 0:25:50They used the words "Nelson Mandela" as shorthand,
0:25:50 > 0:25:54a shortcut to mean the solution to all our problems of apartheid,
0:25:54 > 0:25:59of colonialism, of impoverishment, of life and its hassles.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01BOYS CHANT
0:26:04 > 0:26:08The songs, the chants became a rallying call.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12Nelson Mandela was seen as the person who would save us,
0:26:12 > 0:26:13save these kids.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Not save them from political inequality,
0:26:16 > 0:26:19but pull them out of these lives of poverty and misery,
0:26:19 > 0:26:23of shit education, of suffering, of violence.
0:26:26 > 0:26:31Tata Mandela, I remember catching glimpses of the violence
0:26:31 > 0:26:34that happened in the 1990s after you were released.
0:26:36 > 0:26:41The media headlines screaming Black On Black Violence,
0:26:41 > 0:26:44but behind the scenes, the apartheid force were at work
0:26:44 > 0:26:48sowing divisions, turning brother against brother.
0:26:54 > 0:26:55Thousands died.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58There were also the right wing groups
0:26:58 > 0:27:02trying to set fire to the country, to stop the march of history.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20I have hazy memories because I was confronting my own demons.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23My mother started falling ill
0:27:23 > 0:27:26and I watched her life fall apart.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Politics did not seem that important after all.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35I have read that without your leadership,
0:27:35 > 0:27:38the country would have descended into a civil war.
0:27:44 > 0:27:50My experience of our war was very intimate, very close up.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53It was people in hand-to-hand combat,
0:27:53 > 0:27:57often using rocks and bricks as weapons, Knobkerrie sticks,
0:27:57 > 0:28:00spears made from reinforcing rods.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04And that's how people killed each other, the vast majority,
0:28:04 > 0:28:06by touching each other.
0:28:06 > 0:28:07That's horrible,
0:28:07 > 0:28:11because you know that there's fear, there's eye contact.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14You're making eye contact with a killer,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16and you're talking about this thing.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21It's the smell of human blood.
0:28:21 > 0:28:25It's got a distinctive, horrible smell,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29nauseating and rich and terrible.
0:28:29 > 0:28:33And the sounds. Intimate sounds of people killing each other.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35You can't get them out of your head.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39We were so caught up in it,
0:28:39 > 0:28:43these child soldiers who went to war on behalf of their neighbourhoods,
0:28:43 > 0:28:48of their party, of their president-to-be, Nelson Mandela.
0:28:57 > 0:29:04The negotiation process is completely in tatters.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07I can no longer explain
0:29:09 > 0:29:11to our people
0:29:12 > 0:29:14why we continue
0:29:16 > 0:29:19to talk to a government, to a regime
0:29:20 > 0:29:23which is murdering our people,
0:29:23 > 0:29:26which is conducting war against us.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29We want arms! We want arms! We want arms!
0:29:30 > 0:29:32I did not follow the negotiations,
0:29:32 > 0:29:36as I was going through my own personal stuff.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40I was a late bloomer. I had just discovered girls.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45I was eligible to vote in 1994.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52I was excited about the prospects of my country.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56I thought that the elections and your victory would end the nightmare
0:29:56 > 0:29:59that has haunted our people for centuries.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01The elections meant freedom for our people.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03At least, that's what I thought at that time.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12SONG:
0:31:16 > 0:31:18The Berlin Wall had fallen, Russia had fallen,
0:31:18 > 0:31:21and that threat didn't exist any more.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25Now all of us were inhabiting market capitalism. This was it.
0:31:25 > 0:31:26This was the way it was going to be.
0:31:26 > 0:31:29This was the beginning, the middle and the end.
0:31:29 > 0:31:31Those battles were going on in the ANC, nationalisation was over.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34Even if people were saying things about nationalisation,
0:31:34 > 0:31:35no-one was listening.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38If Mandela had, to use an English phrase,
0:31:38 > 0:31:41cocked a snook at that, in other words,
0:31:41 > 0:31:48shown a position of "Do what you dare,
0:31:48 > 0:31:52"but we are going to at least ensure
0:31:52 > 0:31:56"that the major bloodsuckers, those vampires, those mining houses,
0:31:56 > 0:32:02"pay a restitution which will enable us
0:32:02 > 0:32:04"to really help our people
0:32:04 > 0:32:07"much more than we possibly can otherwise",
0:32:07 > 0:32:10then we would have got away with it.
0:32:10 > 0:32:11We would have gained that.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14WOMAN: You know, Mandela is like Moses.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16- TRANSLATOR:- Nelson Mandela ist wie Mose.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19Sowie Mose die Israeliten befreit hat, hat Nelson Mandela uns befreit.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23Historians often mention the end of apartheid
0:32:23 > 0:32:25and the fall of the Berlin Wall
0:32:25 > 0:32:28as two major historical events of the 20th century.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30The Berlin Wall might have fallen,
0:32:30 > 0:32:34but many more walls still exist everywhere in the world.
0:32:34 > 0:32:38Every day in South Africa, I'm aware of these walls that divide us
0:32:38 > 0:32:40despite your promise to break them down.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44WOMAN'S VOICE: ..Shot on 15th March, 1973.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51Never, and never again
0:32:51 > 0:32:53shall it be
0:32:53 > 0:32:55that this beautiful land
0:32:55 > 0:32:57will again experience
0:32:57 > 0:33:01the oppression of one by another.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05The sun shall never set
0:33:06 > 0:33:10on so glorious a human achievement.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13Let freedom reign.
0:33:13 > 0:33:14God bless Africa.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17I thank you.
0:33:17 > 0:33:18CHEERING
0:33:21 > 0:33:22I have gooseflesh.
0:33:24 > 0:33:28I was there when Madiba spoke.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31We knew it was an exalted occasion.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33That was the time of "pinch me".
0:33:33 > 0:33:36It was kind of unbelievable that in South Africa,
0:33:36 > 0:33:39a country of so much division and hate
0:33:39 > 0:33:41and at each other's throats,
0:33:41 > 0:33:46and here came these eloquent, beautifully phrased words,
0:33:46 > 0:33:51and it wasn't tub-thumping and promising everything to everybody.
0:33:51 > 0:33:56We've seen him on film recently, and he's frail.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58There's still that marvellous smile,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01but progressively, the body is getting weaker
0:34:01 > 0:34:05and we're beginning to live with the image of the person fading away.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14I'll never forget being in front of the Union Building in Pretoria
0:34:14 > 0:34:15on that marvellous day,
0:34:15 > 0:34:18looking at all the other leaders from around the world,
0:34:18 > 0:34:19and having the privilege
0:34:19 > 0:34:25to represent the American people, along with many other Americans.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27Good morning. Good morning.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30- How are you?- I'm very well. Yourself?- I'm so happy.
0:34:33 > 0:34:37- COLIN POWELL:- But I saw it in a way that the others did not see it,
0:34:37 > 0:34:38because I was a soldier.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41What moved me so deeply, and what I've never forgotten,
0:34:41 > 0:34:43is that the first ones to come up
0:34:43 > 0:34:48were the generals of the South African Defence Forces,
0:34:48 > 0:34:52the four men who were in charge of the South African armed forces,
0:34:52 > 0:34:56leading their new Commander-in-Chief, Nelson Mandela.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59And I said, "God, I've lived to see this."
0:35:05 > 0:35:07If you look at many of the struggles,
0:35:07 > 0:35:09the anti-colonial struggles,
0:35:09 > 0:35:12the struggles against the empire, or against the colonies,
0:35:12 > 0:35:17those who take power after it, generally through armed struggle,
0:35:18 > 0:35:24end up being people who are unable to construct the democratic society
0:35:24 > 0:35:28or the just society that they wanted or they said they wanted.
0:35:28 > 0:35:29Ladies and gentlemen,
0:35:29 > 0:35:34the President-elect of the Republic of South Africa...
0:35:34 > 0:35:39They are unable to adjust their minds and their hearts
0:35:39 > 0:35:46to a situation of creating a society that's not "Us against them,
0:35:46 > 0:35:50"I'll kill you, you'll kill me, only one of us is right."
0:35:51 > 0:35:57Mandela moves from one possibility of an armed struggle against a foe
0:35:57 > 0:36:02that certainly deserves to be vanquished militarily,
0:36:02 > 0:36:07to a transition to democracy which has been, I think,
0:36:07 > 0:36:12one of the major issues of the last 30 or 40 years in our century.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15Our feelings were that
0:36:15 > 0:36:19"We are not going to speak to the apartheid regime
0:36:19 > 0:36:23"for the crimes that they committed against us."
0:36:24 > 0:36:29But our brains said "If you don't talk to these people,
0:36:29 > 0:36:31"this country's going to go up in flames."
0:36:31 > 0:36:37So we had to reconcile our blood with our brain,
0:36:37 > 0:36:40our feelings with our logic.
0:36:40 > 0:36:45And we decided that "Look, if we use violence,
0:36:45 > 0:36:47"these people are stronger than us.
0:36:48 > 0:36:52"And they will be able to hold the upper hand.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55"But if we sit down to talk to them,
0:36:55 > 0:36:57"they can never answer our case".
0:36:57 > 0:37:00And that's what we did.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02APPLAUSE
0:37:09 > 0:37:13We've been asked to say it doesn't matter, get over it.
0:37:13 > 0:37:14We can just get over it.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16We didn't matter, what happened to us doesn't matter,
0:37:16 > 0:37:17how we feel doesn't matter,
0:37:17 > 0:37:20how we've become the people we are doesn't matter.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22The nonsense that still continues to happen,
0:37:22 > 0:37:24who doesn't have power, the landlessness doesn't matter.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27It doesn't matter, let's just turn a new page.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31Reconciliation, the expectation of forgiveness
0:37:31 > 0:37:34and reconciliation without justice, is itself an injustice
0:37:34 > 0:37:36that we're supposed to co-sign on.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38I'm not co-signing on it.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04Tata Mandela, can I confess to you that in moments of anger
0:38:04 > 0:38:09and disillusionment, I fantasise about the revolution we never had?
0:38:09 > 0:38:12I'm not saying this lightly, as war scars people for ever.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16Do you think it is better to accept a dirty compromise than go to war?
0:39:00 > 0:39:03Tata Mandela, do you ever have moments of weakness,
0:39:03 > 0:39:04or anger and resentment,
0:39:04 > 0:39:08when you want to line up your enemies against the wall
0:39:08 > 0:39:09and shoot them?
0:39:21 > 0:39:23When I was filming in Nigeria,
0:39:23 > 0:39:27four people were killed as two bombs hit two newspaper offices.
0:39:29 > 0:39:30I was terrified.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34How do we engage with those who feel aggrieved
0:39:34 > 0:39:36and are prepared to sacrifice their lives
0:39:36 > 0:39:40and the lives of others to make their point?
0:39:47 > 0:39:52I know what I'd like to do to those killers in Nigeria right now.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57On the other hand, I would be grateful
0:39:57 > 0:40:01for somebody who is able to do what I cannot do,
0:40:01 > 0:40:04just in order to enable the entity to survive.
0:40:04 > 0:40:09So it's on that axis that people like me are permanently crucified.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12On one hand, we know what is needed,
0:40:12 > 0:40:15what must take place
0:40:15 > 0:40:20in order for the totality of society to survive.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22But at the same time,
0:40:22 > 0:40:25to preserve my own sense of balance in humanity,
0:40:25 > 0:40:29I would like to see some of those slowly roasted on a spit,
0:40:29 > 0:40:32you know, to serve as an example to all of us.
0:40:33 > 0:40:38When I was lying in bed, recovering in hospital in London
0:40:38 > 0:40:42after the bomb where I lost my arm and the sight in an eye,
0:40:42 > 0:40:43somebody sent me a note and said,
0:40:43 > 0:40:46"Don't worry, Comrade Albie, we will avenge you."
0:40:46 > 0:40:47And I thought,
0:40:47 > 0:40:52"Are we going to cut off arms and blind people in one eye?
0:40:52 > 0:40:54"What good is that going to do me?"
0:40:54 > 0:40:58And I said, "If we get freedom and democracy in South Africa
0:40:58 > 0:41:01"and a rule of law, roses and lilies will grow out of my arm,
0:41:01 > 0:41:03"and that would be my soft vengeance."
0:41:05 > 0:41:08Tata Mandela, have you heard the whispers of our people
0:41:08 > 0:41:12that those who butchered and violated their loved ones
0:41:12 > 0:41:13got away with murder?
0:41:15 > 0:41:17Where's justice for them?
0:41:17 > 0:41:20Don't you think we should have had public trials, like Nuremberg?
0:41:49 > 0:41:54Tata Mandela, we are not where we should be as a country.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58We are living every day suspended between a dream and a nightmare.
0:42:10 > 0:42:14Tata Mandela, what was the ultimate price of peace?
0:42:24 > 0:42:26You cannot justify
0:42:26 > 0:42:31the structural violence, the degradation,
0:42:31 > 0:42:34the re-traumatisation that post-apartheid means,
0:42:34 > 0:42:37precisely because you have refused to materially
0:42:37 > 0:42:39transform and transfer power
0:42:39 > 0:42:41by saying "It could have been so much worse,
0:42:41 > 0:42:43"we would have been dying in the streets".
0:42:43 > 0:42:46Well, you know, depending on who you are,
0:42:46 > 0:42:47people are dying in the streets.
0:42:57 > 0:43:01Whatever conditions of poverty and inequality exist in South Africa
0:43:01 > 0:43:06would have been infinitely worse than anything we are today.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08South Africa could so easily have become
0:43:08 > 0:43:13a sort of Palestine, Israel, Sudan, Congo, or whatever.
0:43:19 > 0:43:22"So your kids are actually going to be locked into poverty,
0:43:22 > 0:43:25"I don't know what happened to your water,
0:43:25 > 0:43:27"you're never going to get land -
0:43:27 > 0:43:29"Oh, but how much luckier are you
0:43:29 > 0:43:31"than people who get shot in the streets!"
0:43:31 > 0:43:32It's insulting.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47If there would truly be any reconciliation,
0:43:47 > 0:43:51it's for us to say to our fellow whites in South Africa -
0:43:51 > 0:43:53"Give back".
0:43:53 > 0:43:57I think what we should be doing is to say from 1652,
0:43:57 > 0:44:00how much wealth has been plundered from black people?
0:44:00 > 0:44:01The land, the cows and, you know,
0:44:01 > 0:44:04the dreams and ambitions that have been stolen from black people,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07let us calculate that and put it in monetary form
0:44:07 > 0:44:10and say "Ha! Collectively, all the whites must pay that back".
0:44:10 > 0:44:13You know, then that will be a reconciliation.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16Well, you cannot, you just cannot undo,
0:44:16 > 0:44:21and you cannot make reparations for the crimes of centuries,
0:44:21 > 0:44:24for the cruelties of centuries,
0:44:24 > 0:44:28for the enslavement of a people in a far-off land.
0:44:28 > 0:44:29Where do you begin?
0:44:40 > 0:44:43We are here, we are where we are as a result of war,
0:44:43 > 0:44:46and no amount of negotiation will bring about justice.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49It will be war that brings about justice,
0:44:50 > 0:44:55even at the cost of the ultimate sacrifice.
0:44:55 > 0:44:59We are going to have to get justice done in this country.
0:45:41 > 0:45:45Tata Mandela, I have a recurring nightmare.
0:45:45 > 0:45:50It's a beautiful evening at a restaurant with a group of friends.
0:45:54 > 0:45:59Men in balaclavas holding rifles storm into the restaurant
0:45:59 > 0:46:00and start shooting.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11I hide under the table. Some friends have been shot.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14Some of their blood spills onto my face.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16I try to wash it away, but it won't go away.
0:46:21 > 0:46:22'Passengers in the last carriage,
0:46:22 > 0:46:26'please move towards the front doors to leave the train.'
0:46:26 > 0:46:29People across the globe associate you with peace.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32I remember how you tried to use your status as a global icon
0:46:32 > 0:46:36to stop the invasion of Iraq, but no-one listened to you.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39I remember the only argument I ever had with him
0:46:39 > 0:46:42was when he phoned me up to say,
0:46:42 > 0:46:45"Peter, what Tony Blair is doing in Iraq is bad,
0:46:45 > 0:46:47"it's not going to work".
0:46:48 > 0:46:52What I sensed with Nelson Mandela at that moment
0:46:52 > 0:46:54was a great frustration
0:46:54 > 0:46:58that he felt the invasion of Iraq by mainly America and Britain,
0:46:58 > 0:47:01with other allies, was the wrong thing to do.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03He thought it would be catastrophic,
0:47:03 > 0:47:06and he thought it would undermine all that Tony Blair was doing.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09And in many respects, if you look back, he was right.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12Tony Blair never recovered, outside America,
0:47:12 > 0:47:18the trust he'd had with the British public and the international public,
0:47:18 > 0:47:22from the time he took the decision to go with George Bush into Iraq.
0:48:16 > 0:48:20Do I think peace is possible? Of course it's possible.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22My whole life has been devoted to peace.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24Even though I'm a soldier and I had to fight,
0:48:24 > 0:48:26I have always tried to fight
0:48:26 > 0:48:29in a way that ends the conflict quickly,
0:48:29 > 0:48:32so that we can get back to peace.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36But the reality is, there are bad people,
0:48:36 > 0:48:38there are bad systems in this world.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42I was once asked why we didn't just use soft power,
0:48:42 > 0:48:44why America used hard power.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47Well, it was hard power that defeated the Nazis,
0:48:47 > 0:48:51it was hard power that ended the conflict with Japan.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55And what did America do after using hard power?
0:48:55 > 0:48:58We rebuilt the nations that we'd used the hard power against.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01We used soft power.
0:49:01 > 0:49:05So I'm always for solving a problem without a war,
0:49:05 > 0:49:07but if war comes, I'm the one who knows how to do it.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19RADIO: 'Mr Mandela has remained in critical condition
0:49:19 > 0:49:20'for six days at a Pretoria hospital...'
0:49:20 > 0:49:24Tata Mandela, the invasion of Iraq
0:49:24 > 0:49:27was immoral and based on lies.
0:49:27 > 0:49:29I was in New York at that time
0:49:29 > 0:49:33and my friends were going to march against the war.
0:49:33 > 0:49:34I joined them.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55He discovered that his jailers were human.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59I believe, personally,
0:49:59 > 0:50:01that you should not sit down with your enemies
0:50:01 > 0:50:05unless they have shown real signs of repentance
0:50:05 > 0:50:10and real signs of not being willing to redo what they were going to do.
0:50:10 > 0:50:15In other words, they should show with their actions
0:50:15 > 0:50:20that they are not going to repeat that experience.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23Let's say that they have got rid of the apartheid of their soul,
0:50:23 > 0:50:27the prejudice in their soul, the pettiness in their soul.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37It happened that I was sitting in my chambers as a judge,
0:50:37 > 0:50:39and the phone rings.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41The voice says "There's a man called Henry.
0:50:41 > 0:50:43"He says he has an appointment with you".
0:50:43 > 0:50:45I said "Send him through."
0:50:45 > 0:50:49And I went to the security gate with considerable excitement,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52because Henry had phoned me to say
0:50:52 > 0:50:54that he had organised the bomb in my car.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57He was now going to the Truth Commission.
0:50:57 > 0:50:59Was I willing to meet him?
0:50:59 > 0:51:04I open the door and there's Henry, younger than myself,
0:51:04 > 0:51:06also tallish, thin.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09He's looking at me, I'm looking at him,
0:51:09 > 0:51:12"So this is the man who tried to kill me", and I see in his eyes,
0:51:12 > 0:51:14"This is the man I tried to kill."
0:51:14 > 0:51:18We hadn't fought, we didn't even know each other.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21We talked, we talked, we talked. It's a strange relationship,
0:51:21 > 0:51:24meeting the person who tried to kill you.
0:51:24 > 0:51:25And I said at the end,
0:51:25 > 0:51:29"Henry, normally when I say goodbye to someone, I shake their hand.
0:51:29 > 0:51:32"I can't shake your hand, but you go to the Truth Commission
0:51:32 > 0:51:35"and tell them what you know, and maybe we'll meet one day."
0:51:35 > 0:51:38And I still recall that as he walked back,
0:51:38 > 0:51:40he was shuffling along like a defeated person.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43I closed the door and he was gone. And I forgot about him.
0:51:45 > 0:51:49About nine months later, I'm at an end-of-year party
0:51:49 > 0:51:52and the music is playing very loudly,
0:51:52 > 0:51:55and I hear a voice saying, "Albie, Albie".
0:51:56 > 0:51:58My God, it's Henry.
0:51:58 > 0:51:59He's beaming, and he comes up to me
0:51:59 > 0:52:04and says he went to the Truth Commission and told them everything.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08And I said, "Henry, I've only got to see your face
0:52:08 > 0:52:10"to tell me what you're saying is true."
0:52:10 > 0:52:13I held out my left hand and shook his hand.
0:52:13 > 0:52:17He went away smiling, and I almost fainted.
0:52:20 > 0:52:25I heard afterwards that he was bouncing around,
0:52:25 > 0:52:29and suddenly left the party, and he went home and cried for two weeks.
0:52:29 > 0:52:30And that moved me.
0:52:30 > 0:52:34That moved me. He was becoming a South African.
0:52:34 > 0:52:38He was discovering his own humanity and conscience.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59Tata Mandela, I understand why, as a leader,
0:52:59 > 0:53:04you opted for reconciliation, but where do you draw the line?
0:53:04 > 0:53:05One day I was with a friend of mine
0:53:05 > 0:53:08at one of my favourite restaurants in Cape Town.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12He pointed at a man sitting with two women.
0:53:12 > 0:53:16I immediately recognised him. He was talking and laughing.
0:53:18 > 0:53:23It was Wouter Basson, nicknamed Doctor Death.
0:53:23 > 0:53:24He is the former head
0:53:24 > 0:53:28of the secret chemical and biological warfare programme
0:53:28 > 0:53:29during the apartheid era.
0:53:32 > 0:53:33I walked away, very angry.
0:53:33 > 0:53:37How could you let men like him walk free and enjoy life?
0:53:43 > 0:53:48The West sanctified him, and he accepted it.
0:53:48 > 0:53:50And in return, he was generous
0:53:50 > 0:53:54to people who had done all sorts of horrible things to him,
0:53:54 > 0:53:57but more importantly, to the country as a whole.
0:53:58 > 0:54:02I saw a photograph of you and Henry Kissinger together.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04During my interview with Kissinger,
0:54:04 > 0:54:06I was shocked when he told me
0:54:06 > 0:54:10that he was not aware that anyone in the US administration
0:54:10 > 0:54:13ever regarded you as a terrorist.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16On actual day-to-day political things,
0:54:16 > 0:54:20he had a lot of views with which I strongly disagreed,
0:54:20 > 0:54:22but I understand them
0:54:22 > 0:54:27because the communists
0:54:27 > 0:54:30were the people who supported him
0:54:30 > 0:54:34in the struggle for independence.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38But the greatness of Mandela
0:54:38 > 0:54:43was not whether he was a friend of Gaddafi, or of Castro.
0:54:43 > 0:54:50The greatness of Mandela was that he had this spiritual vision
0:54:50 > 0:54:53to bring freedom to a country,
0:54:53 > 0:54:58and treat what had been viewed as the oppressors as equals,
0:54:58 > 0:55:01without vengeance.
0:55:14 > 0:55:18By chance, I came across a play called Death And The Maiden.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21It introduced me to the work of Ariel Dorfman and to Chile,
0:55:21 > 0:55:23a country I knew so little about.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27I began to read about the assassinations, tortures
0:55:27 > 0:55:30and disappearances of activists.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33I realised this could have been apartheid South Africa.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51I've had one very significant experience.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53Pinochet was dying in the hospital,
0:55:53 > 0:55:55and there was a woman who was crying.
0:55:55 > 0:55:56She was crying, it was ridiculous.
0:55:56 > 0:56:00She was crying for her saviour, for Pinochet was dying.
0:56:00 > 0:56:04And strangely enough, I felt this enormous wave of compassion for her.
0:56:04 > 0:56:05I went up to her and said,
0:56:07 > 0:56:11"I understand that you're mourning for your hero,
0:56:11 > 0:56:14"because I went through the same process
0:56:14 > 0:56:17"with Allende when he was killed, and I want to tell you
0:56:17 > 0:56:19"that I understand what you're going through.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25"What I'm asking is, can you understand what we went through?
0:56:26 > 0:56:29"I'm offering you this as a possibility.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32And she was speechless, she didn't know what to do.
0:56:37 > 0:56:41And that woman had celebrated when Allende died.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44That woman had celebrated when I was exiled from my country.
0:56:44 > 0:56:48That woman had celebrated when people were being shot
0:56:48 > 0:56:50and killed in the streets.
0:56:50 > 0:56:51That woman had celebrated
0:56:51 > 0:56:54when the judges said to women whose men had disappeared,
0:56:54 > 0:56:57"Oh, he probably went off with another woman, that's what happened.
0:56:57 > 0:56:59"That's why he's not around any more.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01"We don't have him", you know?
0:57:01 > 0:57:04That woman did all those things, I'm sure.
0:57:04 > 0:57:05Not that I'm forgiving her.
0:57:08 > 0:57:10There's a saying that in the country of the blind,
0:57:10 > 0:57:13the one-eyed man is king. That idea?
0:57:13 > 0:57:15Well, I don't think I have one eye in the country of the blind,
0:57:15 > 0:57:20but I think those of us who have our eyes slightly more open,
0:57:20 > 0:57:22slightly more open like this,
0:57:22 > 0:57:26a sliver, that we can watch reality and see it.
0:57:26 > 0:57:27I think those who have that
0:57:27 > 0:57:32have an obligation to be more compassionate than those who don't,
0:57:32 > 0:57:35because we know more. We've been through more.
0:57:36 > 0:57:39So, Mandela, who's been through much more,
0:57:39 > 0:57:43who's been through everything in some sense,
0:57:43 > 0:57:48has gone through all the stages of revolution and of pain,
0:57:48 > 0:57:52he's a man who has his eyes really open.
0:58:02 > 0:58:07MANDELA: We face an enormous challenge.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12We believe
0:58:12 > 0:58:17that no South African should ever forget the crimes committed
0:58:19 > 0:58:21in his name.
0:58:23 > 0:58:24We, however, know
0:58:24 > 0:58:27that we must forgive.
0:58:58 > 0:59:00Tata Mandela, what do you do
0:59:00 > 0:59:03with the people who committed atrocities,
0:59:03 > 0:59:05some of whom do not show remorse?
0:59:05 > 0:59:09What do we do with the foot soldiers that claim they too were victims
0:59:09 > 0:59:11and were just following orders?
0:59:11 > 0:59:15How about the leaders who claim that there was no evidence
0:59:15 > 0:59:17that they ever gave such orders,
0:59:17 > 0:59:21and that they were unaware that atrocities were being carried out?
0:59:21 > 0:59:23What about family members,
0:59:23 > 0:59:27friends, neighbours and lovers who betrayed one another?
0:59:27 > 0:59:30What about men who violated women and raped them,
0:59:30 > 0:59:31sometimes their own comrades?
0:59:33 > 0:59:37Apartheid is an Afrikaans word,
0:59:37 > 0:59:42and can be easily replaced
0:59:42 > 0:59:45by a proper, positive term.
0:59:45 > 0:59:47Neighbourly...
0:59:47 > 0:59:50good neighbourliness.
0:59:50 > 0:59:52Good neighbourliness.
0:59:52 > 0:59:54LAUGHTER
0:59:54 > 0:59:56Who's laughing?
0:59:56 > 0:59:58Who's laughing?
0:59:58 > 1:00:00REPORTER: You make no apology
1:00:00 > 1:00:02for some of the things that happened when you were president?
1:00:02 > 1:00:04I'm not here to apologise.
1:00:14 > 1:00:16The whites never said sorry.
1:00:16 > 1:00:20it was the blacks who said "Please, I beg you to say sorry."
1:00:20 > 1:00:24You remember Bishop Tutu crying on TV, saying "I beg you to say sorry."
1:00:24 > 1:00:26Fuck that! Fuck that!
1:00:26 > 1:00:30They don't feel sorry? Give them what they know best.
1:00:30 > 1:00:33You know? They don't feel sorry, give them what they know best.
1:00:33 > 1:00:35And I'm saying, how is it
1:00:35 > 1:00:37that the victim would be the one begging
1:00:37 > 1:00:39for the perpetrator to say sorry?
1:00:44 > 1:00:48Tata Mandela, I grew up in a Christian family.
1:00:48 > 1:00:53I was constantly reminded that Christ forgave our sins
1:00:53 > 1:00:58and that I in turn should forgive, but I struggled with forgiveness.
1:01:05 > 1:01:11The ultimate force to change others' minds is affection,
1:01:11 > 1:01:16love, forgiveness, not anger, not aggressiveness.
1:01:23 > 1:01:26Forgiveness doesn't have to exempt one from justice.
1:01:26 > 1:01:30You can have justice and forgiveness, all right?
1:01:33 > 1:01:38If someone steals my watch and says he's sorry,
1:01:38 > 1:01:42but he's still wearing the watch, what does that mean?
1:01:42 > 1:01:43Or he doesn't even say, "I'm sorry",
1:01:43 > 1:01:45like the majority of white South Africans.
1:01:45 > 1:01:49He's wearing my watch that he stole, and doesn't say, "I'm sorry",
1:01:49 > 1:01:51and I say, "I forgive you".
1:01:53 > 1:01:55What kind of society are we building?
1:01:55 > 1:01:58A sense of impunity, that you can get away with anything,
1:01:58 > 1:02:01as long as you hold some kind of trump card.
1:02:01 > 1:02:05I have a problem with that, quite honestly.
1:02:05 > 1:02:07Forgive does not mean forget.
1:02:11 > 1:02:15If you really forget, there's no basis for forgiveness.
1:02:17 > 1:02:20Tata Mandela, when I went to Robben Island for the first time
1:02:20 > 1:02:23I wondered, what happened to you there?
1:02:23 > 1:02:26Did you have an epiphany? I have asked myself,
1:02:26 > 1:02:29what is it about your story that's so remarkable?
1:02:29 > 1:02:30But I can only guess.
1:02:30 > 1:02:34How is it possible to come out of this grey and depressing place
1:02:34 > 1:02:37and not show any sign of bitterness?
1:02:37 > 1:02:38How is that possible?
1:02:42 > 1:02:44Your prison cell is a shrine.
1:02:44 > 1:02:47I have witnessed people break down and cry.
1:02:47 > 1:02:51A few times I'd been there, I realised something disturbing.
1:02:51 > 1:02:54The people who come to take a tour of this prison
1:02:54 > 1:02:57do not seem interested in asking the names of your companions.
1:02:57 > 1:03:00Their names and pain do not seem to matter.
1:03:00 > 1:03:04Only your pain, only your story, only your experience.
1:03:17 > 1:03:19I think he did take it too far,
1:03:19 > 1:03:22but by that time I think, having won,
1:03:22 > 1:03:27and having become what he was in the global village,
1:03:27 > 1:03:31and being, you know, treated as a god,
1:03:31 > 1:03:34he decided to behave like one.
1:03:34 > 1:03:36What do you mean?
1:03:36 > 1:03:40I mean that! That God can forgive, so if you believe you're a god,
1:03:40 > 1:03:41then, you know, you forgive.
1:03:49 > 1:03:52If everybody became President of the Republic,
1:03:52 > 1:03:54it would be rather easy to forgive the people who hurt you,
1:03:54 > 1:03:57because you'd become the president of the Republic, right?
1:03:57 > 1:04:01What happens to the woman who is still in her hut,
1:04:01 > 1:04:03and her son doesn't come home?
1:04:03 > 1:04:05And she hears the murmurs of footsteps,
1:04:05 > 1:04:08and she thinks "Maybe he's coming home,
1:04:08 > 1:04:10"maybe the ghost is coming home."
1:04:10 > 1:04:13That person cannot be consoled,
1:04:13 > 1:04:16and we should not be made to believe we can console that person.
1:04:16 > 1:04:17We can't console that person.
1:04:19 > 1:04:23One of the testimonies at the Truth and Reconciliation Committee
1:04:23 > 1:04:27that continues to haunt me is that of Charity Khondile.
1:04:27 > 1:04:30At a time when often, black women were referred to
1:04:30 > 1:04:32as being strong and forgiving,
1:04:32 > 1:04:35she refused to forgive the man who killed her son, Sizwe.
1:04:43 > 1:04:44PHONE RINGS AT OTHER END
1:04:48 > 1:04:50Hello, how are you?
1:04:52 > 1:04:55Can I speak to Mrs Charity Khondile?
1:04:56 > 1:04:59It's Khalo Matabane.
1:04:59 > 1:05:04I left a message on your voicemail the other day.
1:05:22 > 1:05:23Hello?
1:05:35 > 1:05:37When I started making this documentary
1:05:37 > 1:05:40I wanted to find out if she still felt the same way,
1:05:40 > 1:05:44especially since her son's killer recently died of cancer.
1:05:45 > 1:05:47I was curious to know what happens
1:05:47 > 1:05:51when the victim refuses to forgive the perpetrator, and then he dies.
1:05:53 > 1:05:55What does the victim do with the anger?
1:05:55 > 1:05:58What happens to a fury without a target?
1:05:58 > 1:06:02Does the anger turn on the person who carries it?
1:06:02 > 1:06:03Will you stand, please?
1:06:07 > 1:06:09Are you willing to take the oath?
1:06:09 > 1:06:11- Yes.- Do you solemnly swear
1:06:11 > 1:06:14that the evidence you will give before this commission
1:06:14 > 1:06:19will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
1:06:19 > 1:06:20I swear.
1:06:20 > 1:06:22Thank you very much indeed.
1:06:53 > 1:06:54He left the country
1:06:54 > 1:06:58because he was frequently being harassed by the police
1:06:58 > 1:07:01while he was still at Fort Hare University.
1:07:06 > 1:07:10But somehow, we learnt that he was missing from Lesotho.
1:07:13 > 1:07:16His father investigated,
1:07:16 > 1:07:20and we discovered that he had been arrested, kidnapped, actually,
1:07:20 > 1:07:24whilst he was phoning his girlfriend in Port Elizabeth.
1:07:27 > 1:07:29So we didn't know what had happened.
1:07:29 > 1:07:32I think it was in 1981. For nine years, he was missing.
1:07:37 > 1:07:42After that, Dirk Coetzee confessed what had happened to him.
1:07:42 > 1:07:47So we learnt that he was imprisoned, tortured, shot,
1:07:47 > 1:07:50and that was it.
1:07:59 > 1:08:04They had burnt the body for about nine hours.
1:08:04 > 1:08:07They said they'd wanted to make sure there was not a bone left.
1:08:14 > 1:08:15It was terrible.
1:08:19 > 1:08:24They acted like cannibals, even saying his flesh smelt good.
1:08:25 > 1:08:30They said they were drinking, and his flesh was smelling good.
1:08:30 > 1:08:33That means they were almost eating him,
1:08:33 > 1:08:37sort of making the cremation a ritual to their gods,
1:08:37 > 1:08:41celebrating that they had killed a terrorist, one of their enemies.
1:08:55 > 1:08:59It wasn't fair that these people should be forgiven
1:08:59 > 1:09:04for this atrocity, because others are sent to jail for murder.
1:09:04 > 1:09:08In this case, I didn't understand the amnesty thing,
1:09:08 > 1:09:10why they had to be pardoned.
1:09:10 > 1:09:15Well, they're saying they are political prisoners,
1:09:15 > 1:09:18not murderers, that is what they were saying.
1:09:18 > 1:09:21But I feel that they should be imprisoned also
1:09:21 > 1:09:24and go to court and answer for this, just like anybody else.
1:09:24 > 1:09:27Who kills must go to jail. I don't understand.
1:09:27 > 1:09:29I'm just an ordinary mother.
1:09:29 > 1:09:32I'm not in parliament, I'm in flesh.
1:09:43 > 1:09:47After nine years, when my son was still missing,
1:09:47 > 1:09:51they wanted us to say on the spot at the Truth Commission
1:09:51 > 1:09:53that we'd forgiven those people.
1:09:53 > 1:09:59I told them it wasn't easy to forgive, it took time,
1:09:59 > 1:10:02but that didn't mean you weren't going to forgive.
1:10:02 > 1:10:06At first you feel angry, then you forgive, but you do not forget.
1:10:34 > 1:10:38Tata Mandela, I'm not sure after two years of making this documentary
1:10:38 > 1:10:42that I understand you or the choices you made.
1:10:42 > 1:10:44It is said that we are all shaped by our childhood.
1:10:44 > 1:10:48So I travelled to your ancestral land in the Eastern Cape
1:10:48 > 1:10:50in search of your traces and your footprints.
1:10:52 > 1:10:55I must admit that apart from the beautiful landscape,
1:10:55 > 1:10:58there was nothing remarkable about the area.
1:10:58 > 1:11:00It was like my village.
1:11:00 > 1:11:04It has occurred to me that perhaps we'll never understand you,
1:11:04 > 1:11:06that you're our imagination
1:11:06 > 1:11:10and that the truth about you lies in your contradictions.
1:11:22 > 1:11:26Tata Mandela, I returned to my village
1:11:26 > 1:11:29looking for clues about you in my past.
1:11:29 > 1:11:32I realised that perhaps the journey has been about struggling
1:11:32 > 1:11:35to reconcile my stories about you.
1:11:35 > 1:11:36My childhood hero.
1:12:02 > 1:12:07Tata Mandela, I am part of the generation that came of age
1:12:07 > 1:12:09when apartheid was on its way out
1:12:09 > 1:12:13and a new South Africa was starting to be born.
1:12:13 > 1:12:16History weighs heavy on my shoulders.
1:12:16 > 1:12:18I have bad memories, which I struggle with.
1:14:13 > 1:14:18Tata Mandela, we are one of the most unequal societies in the world.
1:14:18 > 1:14:21People are impatient. They can't wait any longer.
1:14:21 > 1:14:24Our people feel that change is too slow
1:14:24 > 1:14:27and the system favours the powerful and the wealthy.
1:14:27 > 1:14:32There are protests everywhere, people demand change everywhere,
1:14:32 > 1:14:36people demand freedom, real freedom everywhere.
1:14:36 > 1:14:40What is the future? I don't know.
1:14:40 > 1:14:43What I can sense is that we are sitting on a time bomb.