0:00:06 > 0:00:11For ten years, Western intelligence has fought a secret war against al-Qaeda,
0:00:11 > 0:00:14the most ruthless and sophisticated terrorist organisation
0:00:14 > 0:00:16the world has ever faced.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19We will not stop this fight. We are at war.
0:00:21 > 0:00:23In the decade since 9/11,
0:00:23 > 0:00:27the West has employed unprecedented and controversial methods -
0:00:27 > 0:00:29drone attacks...
0:00:30 > 0:00:32..secret prisons,
0:00:32 > 0:00:34and torture.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37People were desperate. The White House wanted results,
0:00:37 > 0:00:41and the CIA was told to get them any way you could get them.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44What's the value of human life, and what is it worth
0:00:44 > 0:00:47to get information that will save a human life?
0:00:47 > 0:00:51'I've reported on terrorist conflicts for almost 40 years.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54'Never has the West felt more threatened.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57'Never has the West hit back with such force.'
0:00:57 > 0:01:01In this series, we investigate whether this secret war
0:01:01 > 0:01:03has made us all safer.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06We responded in a way that threw away our values.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09Hypocrisy breeds hatred,
0:01:09 > 0:01:12and I'm afraid it has bred hatred round the world.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17We talked to intelligence chiefs about the dilemmas they face.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19In her first-ever television interview,
0:01:19 > 0:01:23the former head of MI5 reveals the scale of the threat.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27At no stage, in these years, did we face one plot.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31All the time we had up to a dozen other ones we were worried about,
0:01:31 > 0:01:33or more.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Ten years on, America has finally eliminated al-Qaeda's leader,
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Osama Bin Laden.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I think the prospect of taking him alive was very low.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48He ain't going to come out but feet first, I think.
0:01:49 > 0:01:55With Bin Laden now dead, what is the nature of the threat we still face?
0:01:55 > 0:01:58I'd be very surprised if there weren't ambitions
0:01:58 > 0:02:01to do something on the same scale.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04There are still hundreds of 'em out there
0:02:04 > 0:02:08plotting to come after us, and until they're gone, we'll face a threat.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31I felt the impact.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33The ceiling was collapsing.
0:02:33 > 0:02:38'And then there was a smell of jet fuel.'
0:02:38 > 0:02:40I didn't know if I was going to die.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44Dianne DeFontes was at her desk
0:02:44 > 0:02:48on the 89th floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52The first plane hit just four floors above her.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Dianne just managed to escape,
0:02:59 > 0:03:03but nearly 3,000 people died in America that day.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06PEOPLE SCREAMING Oh, my God!
0:03:06 > 0:03:09Something like that may happen again.
0:03:09 > 0:03:14There are others out there meaning to do us harm.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Are we safe?
0:03:16 > 0:03:19I don't think so.
0:03:20 > 0:03:229/11 marked the beginning
0:03:22 > 0:03:26of President Bush's so-called war on terror.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28The people who knocked these buildings down
0:03:28 > 0:03:30will hear all of us soon!
0:03:30 > 0:03:33After September 11th,
0:03:33 > 0:03:37the national consensus here is that we are indeed a nation at war.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40The next day, MI5's Eliza Manningham-Buller
0:03:40 > 0:03:42flew to Washington.
0:03:42 > 0:03:48We flew over New York, and there were no other planes in the sky.
0:03:48 > 0:03:53I remember thinking about the human tragedy beneath the clouds.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58But by that stage, I was focussed
0:03:58 > 0:04:02on how my service needed to react,
0:04:02 > 0:04:05the responsibilities of what we needed to do.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Like MI5, America's intelligence agencies
0:04:09 > 0:04:12had been taken completely by surprise
0:04:12 > 0:04:15at the sheer scale and ambition of the attack.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17We didn't see this one coming.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20We didn't have good intelligence it was going to happen.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24We were worried that there was a possible second operation.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28So everyone's concern was, understand what the threat is out there,
0:04:28 > 0:04:31understand who may be involved.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35Go find them. Stop them, and make sure it doesn't happen.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45'Ground Zero is the biggest crime scene in American history.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49'But the immediate priority was not to bring the terrorists to justice,
0:04:49 > 0:04:53'but to do whatever it took to wipe out the enemy.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57'9/11 ushered in a secret war against al-Qaeda
0:04:57 > 0:05:00'that was to test the West's commitment to human rights
0:05:00 > 0:05:02'to the limit.'
0:05:02 > 0:05:05The sense was, this is an intelligence war.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Identify the target and eliminate them so more people don't die.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13We will take everything we have, every tool we have,
0:05:13 > 0:05:17and eliminate the prospect that they can kill more innocents.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23This secret war has been fought in the shadows,
0:05:23 > 0:05:26in sharp contrast to America's spectacular military response.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31In Afghanistan, the Americans destroyed the terrorist training camps
0:05:31 > 0:05:35and toppled the Taliban regime that had protected Osama Bin Laden.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38GUNFIRE
0:05:38 > 0:05:41Although Bin Laden escaped, hundreds of prisoners were captured,
0:05:41 > 0:05:44many with possible knowledge of al-Qaeda's members,
0:05:44 > 0:05:48- structure and plans. - Get your- BLEEP- head down!
0:05:48 > 0:05:50But there was a problem.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54America's intelligence agencies were totally unprepared.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56They had only a handful of Arabic speakers
0:05:56 > 0:05:59to interrogate the prisoners.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02If you're thinking about a global war on terror,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05then, you start thinking you want lots of interrogators.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09The CIA had... As far as I can tell, they had zero experience
0:06:09 > 0:06:13in interrogating, and interrogating terrorists in particular.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19Just three months after 9/11,
0:06:19 > 0:06:23there was a disturbing reminder of just how immediate the threat was.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28High explosive packed in a shoe
0:06:28 > 0:06:31almost destroyed a transatlantic plane.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33Miraculously, it failed to detonate.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37The bomber, Richard Reid, was a British Muslim convert
0:06:37 > 0:06:39who had trained at an al-Qaeda camp.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41Once again, as on 9/11,
0:06:41 > 0:06:44the intelligence agencies were taken unawares.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47That attack said to us,
0:06:47 > 0:06:49"Here is a Brit."
0:06:49 > 0:06:56Here is a Brit who is prepared to support this al-Qaeda agenda,
0:06:56 > 0:06:58a Brit who has been to a radical mosque,
0:06:58 > 0:07:00who has been to Afghanistan.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05Then we began to be anxious about people who travelled,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07people who'd been to the camps.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13The hunt for Osama Bin Laden and his high command
0:07:13 > 0:07:15became more urgent than ever.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Six months after 9/11, America made its first dramatic breakthrough
0:07:19 > 0:07:22- in its secret war. - MACHINE GUNS FIRING
0:07:24 > 0:07:26In Pakistan, the man thought to be
0:07:26 > 0:07:29one of Bin Laden's top lieutenants was captured.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31His name was Abu Zubaydah.
0:07:32 > 0:07:38He was spending a lot of time plotting and planning murder.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41He's not plotting...
0:07:41 > 0:07:44- and he's not planning any more. - CHEERING
0:07:46 > 0:07:49The interrogation of Abu Zubaydah
0:07:49 > 0:07:51would raise an uncomfortable question.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54How far should the American government go
0:07:54 > 0:07:56to get intelligence to save lives?
0:07:59 > 0:08:02We're looking at potentially taking the head off the snake,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05and it was great. We have one of the major planners.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08He's now off the street.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12A treasure trove of documents was recovered from his safe house.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15They confirmed that Abu Zubaydah was the gatekeeper
0:08:15 > 0:08:18for al-Qaeda's training camps in Afghanistan.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21He knew the names of just about every jihadi who'd trained there.
0:08:21 > 0:08:27He unquestionably had access to top al-Qaeda officials,
0:08:27 > 0:08:29and was very involved
0:08:29 > 0:08:34in some of their operational planning and training.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39The CIA put Abu Zubaydah on a secret flight
0:08:39 > 0:08:42to a clandestine prison, or so-called black site.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44We believe it was in Thailand.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47Abu Zubaydah had been shot several times
0:08:47 > 0:08:49during his capture, and was now near death.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52He needed urgent medical care.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57The only experienced interrogators on site
0:08:57 > 0:09:00were a Muslim FBI agent and his colleague.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03They believed they wouldn't need to coerce him.
0:09:03 > 0:09:05Standard police interrogation methods
0:09:05 > 0:09:08would get Zubaydah to talk.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12This is the first time they've described what happened
0:09:12 > 0:09:14on television.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19The mindset was, death for Zubaydah was not an option.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23It was at one point that his medical condition took a turn for the worse,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26and he defecated on himself.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29I just grabbed a towel and began to clean him up,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32only because it seemed like the right thing to do,
0:09:32 > 0:09:34the humane thing to do. He recognised it,
0:09:34 > 0:09:37and I held his hand, and just kept on reassuring that,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40"These people are going to take care of you."
0:09:40 > 0:09:43- "We're not going to let you die." - It was a surreal moment,
0:09:43 > 0:09:45where we're taking care of the terrorist,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48but then, the same time, we're talking to him,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50and trying to get intelligence from him.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54You know, there is that idea about these terrorists
0:09:54 > 0:09:58that they don't talk, and I think, if you approach them the right way,
0:09:58 > 0:10:02from my experience, sometimes you have a problem shutting them up.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09The FBI's tried-and-tested approach would pay off.
0:10:10 > 0:10:14The agents showed him photographs of leading al-Qaeda suspects.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19To their amazement, Abu Zubaydah delivered the crown jewels.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23When Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's photo came up,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25Zubaydah grabbed my arm like this to stop me,
0:10:25 > 0:10:30which just made me just totally have a big take-back,
0:10:30 > 0:10:34going, "Wait a minute. Is he playing a game with me?"
0:10:34 > 0:10:36He says, "That's Mukhtar."
0:10:36 > 0:10:39Now, that was a eureka moment for me.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42Mukhtar's name had been out there in all the chatter,
0:10:42 > 0:10:44but we didn't know who Mukhtar was.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47Zubaydah asked, "Steve, how did you know
0:10:47 > 0:10:50that Mukhtar was the mastermind of September 11th?"
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Which... Exactly. I tried not to do that with my eyes.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I needed to convince Zubaydah
0:10:56 > 0:10:59that we knew exactly everything that he was about to say,
0:10:59 > 0:11:03that we knew everything about Mukhtar's role in September 11th,
0:11:03 > 0:11:05which, of course, we didn't know at the time.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10We called a time-out. We excused the room, and my partner had to hold me.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12- I thought I was going to fall down. - We were, like, "Wow!"
0:11:12 > 0:11:15"What just happened here?"
0:11:15 > 0:11:17"Really? Khalid Sheikh Mohammed," you know...
0:11:17 > 0:11:20"Mukhtar is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? He did 9/11?"
0:11:20 > 0:11:25"My God!" I mean, you know, he wasn't even on our radar screen.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31In Washington, the director of the CIA
0:11:31 > 0:11:33was apparently excited by the intelligence,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36until he found it was coming from the FBI,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39and his interrogators had still to arrive.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44A few days later, Special Agent Gaudin
0:11:44 > 0:11:47was given another chance to interview Zubaydah at length.
0:11:47 > 0:11:51He said, "There are two people that I sent to Mukhtar."
0:11:51 > 0:11:54I knew that was extremely significant.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58Mukhtar isn't sending them to baking school or to play football.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01He's sending them somewhere to cause mass murder.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03We got to find out who these people are.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06He didn't give me their names, but he described them.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08One of them he said was an American,
0:12:08 > 0:12:12and one was, er, someone from the UK.
0:12:13 > 0:12:17The CIA quickly discovered that two men had just tried to get on a plane
0:12:17 > 0:12:21in Pakistan, and sent the FBI their passport photos.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24We showed him the photos. He was shocked.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27He said, "Yep, that's them. That's the two guys."
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Zubaydah identified the two men
0:12:30 > 0:12:33as Jose Padilla, an American citizen,
0:12:33 > 0:12:36and a UK resident, Binyam Mohamed.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39I looked at him straight in the face, and I said, "See?"
0:12:39 > 0:12:41"I told you from day one."
0:12:41 > 0:12:44"Every question I ask you,
0:12:44 > 0:12:47we most probably know the answer to."
0:12:47 > 0:12:49According to the FBI,
0:12:49 > 0:12:53Zubaydah claimed that both men were bent on attacking the West.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56They are going to him, going, "Hey, Zubaydah,
0:12:56 > 0:12:58we'd like to blow this up. We'd like to do that."
0:12:58 > 0:13:01What he says to us is, "I don't need these two guys
0:13:01 > 0:13:03to plan bombings for me. I got plenty of people
0:13:03 > 0:13:06that know how to plan bombs and make bombs."
0:13:06 > 0:13:08"I need these guys so they can travel,
0:13:08 > 0:13:10cos they have clean passports to do it."
0:13:10 > 0:13:13One of the things they had mentioned to him was,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17"If we get some sort of uranium and we do this and this with it,
0:13:17 > 0:13:20we can have some sort of a dirty bomb go off in the US."
0:13:20 > 0:13:25'America stopped an al-Qaeda plot to explode a radioactive device'...
0:13:26 > 0:13:30In May 2002, as he landed in Chicago,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33the American Jose Padilla was arrested.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Binyam Mohamed, the 24-year-old Ethiopian
0:13:39 > 0:13:42who'd been living in London for eight years,
0:13:42 > 0:13:45was arrested in Pakistan as he tried to leave the country.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54This was just the beginning of a seven-year ordeal
0:13:54 > 0:13:56across three continents.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58Binyam Mohamed says that, in Pakistan,
0:13:58 > 0:14:02he was hung by his wrists, beaten with a leather strap,
0:14:02 > 0:14:04and subjected to a mock execution.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08He alleges MI5 was aware he was being tortured.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11His case would raise questions about what the British government knew
0:14:11 > 0:14:14about his treatment.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22General Pervez Musharraf was president of Pakistan
0:14:22 > 0:14:26throughout most of this time, when many terrorist suspects were interrogated,
0:14:26 > 0:14:31and Musharraf was a crucial ally in the West's war against al-Qaeda.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34We are dealing with vicious people,
0:14:34 > 0:14:36and we have to get information.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40Now, if we are extremely decent,
0:14:40 > 0:14:43we then don't get any information.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47We need to allow leeway to the intelligence operatives,
0:14:47 > 0:14:49the people who interrogate.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53Does the end justify the means, to extract...
0:14:53 > 0:14:57information, intelligence, from suspect terrorists
0:14:57 > 0:14:59who are reluctant to talk?
0:15:00 > 0:15:02To an extent, yes.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11The US, too, was determined to do whatever necessary
0:15:11 > 0:15:13to counter the threat.
0:15:13 > 0:15:18'In 2002, America, the self-proclaimed beacon of freedom and democracy,
0:15:18 > 0:15:21'opened Camp X-Ray at its naval base in Cuba.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25'Guantanamo Bay was deliberately chosen
0:15:25 > 0:15:28'as it lay outside American legal jurisdiction.'
0:15:29 > 0:15:32Detainees could be held here indefinitely without trial,
0:15:32 > 0:15:37and President Bush declared al-Qaeda and Taliban suspects
0:15:37 > 0:15:40would be denied the protection of the Geneva Conventions
0:15:40 > 0:15:44that guaranteed prisoners of war freedom from ill treatment
0:15:44 > 0:15:47and torture.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50The Bush administration essentially dismantled
0:15:50 > 0:15:5450 years' worth of human-rights infrastructure.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56This is all infrastructure that was created
0:15:56 > 0:15:59in the wake of the Second World War, and it's infrastructure
0:15:59 > 0:16:03that the Bush administration essentially wiped out.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08The CIA and military intelligence were secretly authorised
0:16:08 > 0:16:10to train a new generation of interrogators,
0:16:10 > 0:16:15and apply techniques America had never used before.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17YELLING / MACHINE-GUNS FIRING
0:16:20 > 0:16:24For 50 years, American soldiers had been trained
0:16:24 > 0:16:27to resist enemy torture when captured.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32After 9/11, these techniques were reverse-engineered.
0:16:32 > 0:16:37They were now designed to extract intelligence from detainees.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40Psychologists were determined to break
0:16:40 > 0:16:43even the most defiant terrorist with hooding,
0:16:43 > 0:16:47total sensory deprivation, nudity, physical force,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50and even an ancient form of torture.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54When you're dealing with someone who's motivated,
0:16:54 > 0:16:59and deeply ideologically motivated by a religious belief
0:16:59 > 0:17:01that the murder of innocents is an appropriate way
0:17:01 > 0:17:04to reach a political goal, the likelihood that individual
0:17:04 > 0:17:07is going to speak is quite low.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10And you don't know how much time you have.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Will there be an attack tomorrow? Will it be next week?
0:17:13 > 0:17:15The White House wanted results,
0:17:15 > 0:17:19and the CIA was told to get them any way you could get them.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27At the black site, the CIA wanted much more from Abu Zubaydah.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31They took over the investigation from the FBI,
0:17:31 > 0:17:33and began to implement what they called
0:17:33 > 0:17:38"enhanced interrogation techniques" to break Zubaydah.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44A confinement box was constructed.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48Much of what he endured was recorded on CCTV at the time,
0:17:48 > 0:17:51but the tapes were later destroyed.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57As soon as he was physically able,
0:17:57 > 0:18:00he was strapped naked to a chair
0:18:00 > 0:18:04in the frigid cold, and left that way for three weeks at a time,
0:18:04 > 0:18:06during which time he was sleep-deprived.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09If he started to doze off, they'd spray his face with water.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13Still suffering from serious wounds,
0:18:13 > 0:18:16he was then confined in what was known as "the dog box".
0:18:16 > 0:18:21He was stuffed and left there hours and hours at a time,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24many times till he passed out.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Total darkness, covered with blankets
0:18:28 > 0:18:33to make air coming in difficult and create heat...
0:18:36 > 0:18:39- Is that torture? - It is as far as I'm concerned,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42and I think anybody who thinks about it rationally
0:18:42 > 0:18:44would say it's torture.
0:18:44 > 0:18:50Were you aware that the Americans were using enhanced interrogation techniques?
0:18:50 > 0:18:52Not for quite a long time
0:18:52 > 0:18:55after they started using them.
0:18:55 > 0:18:59They chose to conceal it from the Allies,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02and, indeed, from their own citizens.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08In America, the FBI agents' superior,
0:19:08 > 0:19:12Pat D'Amuro, was just learning what the CIA was intending to do.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15For him, there was a fundamental conflict
0:19:15 > 0:19:18between the FBI's painstaking legal approach to interrogation
0:19:18 > 0:19:21and the CIA's resort to coercion.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25They said they wanted to start utilising
0:19:25 > 0:19:27the enhanced interrogation techniques,
0:19:27 > 0:19:30and at that particular time, I told them to come home.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32"Come back."
0:19:32 > 0:19:37"Do not participate in any way, shape or form, and return
0:19:37 > 0:19:40to the United States."
0:19:40 > 0:19:45The FBI decided the techniques were wrong and indefensible.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49I told the director, "Some day a bunch of people will be sitting
0:19:49 > 0:19:52at green-felt tables, testifying before Congress."
0:19:52 > 0:19:55"If I'm sitting there, I want to be able to stand up and say
0:19:55 > 0:19:59that the FBI did not participate in this activity."
0:20:01 > 0:20:04Undeterred, the CIA went still further
0:20:04 > 0:20:08with what it called "the program". It sought authorisation
0:20:08 > 0:20:12for an ancient form of torture used by the Spanish Inquisition
0:20:12 > 0:20:14and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21'US government authorities claimed waterboarding was lawful
0:20:21 > 0:20:24'because the pain wasn't severe or prolonged.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28'The Bush administration simply redefined torture.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31'The technique was meticulously planned.'
0:20:31 > 0:20:34A top-secret legal memo described the process
0:20:34 > 0:20:36in chillingly mundane detail.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40"The individual is bound securely."
0:20:40 > 0:20:43"The water is usually applied from a canteen cup."
0:20:43 > 0:20:46"Air is now slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds."
0:20:47 > 0:20:50"This action, plus the cloth, produces the perception
0:20:50 > 0:20:53of suffocation and incipient panic,
0:20:53 > 0:20:55the perception of drowning."
0:20:58 > 0:21:00Every time they go through that,
0:21:00 > 0:21:03they're forced to breathe in these water droplets,
0:21:03 > 0:21:07knowing that the people that are doing it hate them.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10They're in fear that they're going to die,
0:21:10 > 0:21:12and it's a terrible torture.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16The torture techniques all happened in a continuum.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21It's not as if we were going to use this particular technique
0:21:21 > 0:21:25and use it, and then, he wasn't able to give any information,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29so then they apply another technique. That's not the way it worked.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33Everything occurred simultaneously, one after the other,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36and that includes waterboarding.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39'These abuses are set out at length
0:21:39 > 0:21:43'in declassified FBI and CIA reports.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46'The man who headed the CIA after they were revealed
0:21:46 > 0:21:48'refuses to condemn them.'
0:21:48 > 0:21:52How many folks did CIA detain at its so-called black sites
0:21:52 > 0:21:55in the history of the programme, which lasted until January 2009?
0:21:55 > 0:21:58The answer there is, fewer than a hundred.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00This was a very carefully run, targeted programme.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04But if Abu Zubaydah is waterboarded 83 times,
0:22:04 > 0:22:08- that is torture, isn't it?- I... This happened before my watch.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12- But you must have a view. - My view is, I don't have a view.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15- My view is -- You must have a view! - I do not judge
0:22:15 > 0:22:18those who had to face far more difficult decisions
0:22:18 > 0:22:21than I had to make. My view is,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24I am grateful for the people who went before me,
0:22:24 > 0:22:26because if they had not made some heroic choices,
0:22:26 > 0:22:30these difficult decisions may have been forced on me.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36But there were also occasions at the black sites
0:22:36 > 0:22:39when some CIA agents went beyond their remit,
0:22:39 > 0:22:43holding a drill to a detainee's head and loading a gun.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46They even resorted to mock executions.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48GUN CLICKS
0:22:48 > 0:22:51Once you authorise people to step over a line,
0:22:51 > 0:22:55you cannot control any more how far over the line they go.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Once you've opened a door, you can't control how far the door opens.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05A year after 9/11,
0:23:05 > 0:23:08two suicide bombers ripped apart two nightclubs in Bali.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12There's destruction everywhere. This place is absolutely fucked.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16This is a big fucking bomb that went off, man. A big fucking bomb.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18202 people were killed in the inferno,
0:23:18 > 0:23:23most of them young Australians. 28 of the victims were British.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26Western intelligence agencies had failed to prevent
0:23:26 > 0:23:28another murderous attack.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32The suicide bombers were from an al-Qaeda affiliate.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34Once again, the planning was traced back
0:23:34 > 0:23:37to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and al-Qaeda.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46'Faced with such atrocities,
0:23:46 > 0:23:49'the US military was determined to show what it could do.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52'At the end of 2002,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55'the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorised the military
0:23:55 > 0:23:58'to use its own aggressive interrogation techniques
0:23:58 > 0:24:01'at its base at Guantanamo Bay.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03'Rumsfeld added a handwritten postscript.'
0:24:03 > 0:24:06"I stand for 8-10 hours a day."
0:24:06 > 0:24:09"Why is standing limited to 4 hours?"
0:24:09 > 0:24:13And the military would be less supervised than the CIA.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17You tell the can-do military in particular,
0:24:17 > 0:24:21you tell them, "You can use dogs. You can use slapping."
0:24:21 > 0:24:24"You can..." You're just opening Pandora's box!
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Jim Clemente was a member of the FBI's Behavioural Analysis Unit.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36He was sent to observe interrogations at Guantanamo
0:24:36 > 0:24:41and provide advice. He was shocked by what one officer told him.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45She actually had watched the television show 24
0:24:45 > 0:24:48to get ideas on interrogation methods,
0:24:48 > 0:24:51that they would then utilise at Gitmo.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55It was outrageous,
0:24:55 > 0:24:58unbelievable that somebody would do something that foolish.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07Now the US military had their hands on a prime al-Qaeda suspect.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10Mohammed Al-Qahtani, known as Detainee 63,
0:25:10 > 0:25:15had been refused entry to America just before 9/11.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17He was suspected of being the 20th hijacker.
0:25:19 > 0:25:23Detainee 63 was actually the first detainee's interrogation plan
0:25:23 > 0:25:25that I read,
0:25:25 > 0:25:28and I was...shocked.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31Even the initial methods were offensive,
0:25:31 > 0:25:35and certainly coercive, and that was the base level for them,
0:25:35 > 0:25:37and they kept raising it higher and higher.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41When I talked to him initially, he was in isolation.
0:25:41 > 0:25:46and at that point I believe he was beginning to hallucinate,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49talking to people that weren't there.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51He was disoriented as to time and place.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57Al-Qahtani is the only case in which the US government
0:25:57 > 0:26:01has officially accepted that torture was used.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04An official investigation by the FBI's inspector general
0:26:04 > 0:26:07described his ordeal.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09DOG BARKS
0:26:09 > 0:26:11"Tying a dog leash to detainee's chain."
0:26:11 > 0:26:13"Stress positions."
0:26:13 > 0:26:16"20-hour interrogations. Stripping him naked."
0:26:16 > 0:26:18"Women's underwear placed over his head."
0:26:22 > 0:26:26That's the kind of thing that was encouraged down there.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32But the most serious allegations of torture
0:26:32 > 0:26:37during the secret war on terror took place far from Guantanamo Bay -
0:26:37 > 0:26:40so-called extraordinary rendition could spirit a suspect
0:26:40 > 0:26:43to another country.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45It was an aphorism within the CIA,
0:26:45 > 0:26:48"If you want good intelligence, send him to Syria."
0:26:48 > 0:26:52"If you want him to disappear, send him to Cairo."
0:26:52 > 0:26:54And if they were sent to Morocco?
0:26:54 > 0:26:58Well, there's a place where you could probably get what you wanted.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01You want a little torture, fingernails pulled out,
0:27:01 > 0:27:03cigarette burn on the face, you can get it.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07We did not send these people there to be mistreated.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10We sent people there because they may have been citizens of that country,
0:27:10 > 0:27:14because their services had a specific interest in that individual
0:27:14 > 0:27:16for legitimate reasons. We sent people there
0:27:16 > 0:27:19because of cultural or linguistic reasons.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23They were better able, more capable, of getting information from them.
0:27:23 > 0:27:29One British resident alleges he was not only tortured in Pakistan,
0:27:29 > 0:27:34but put on a secret CIA plane and flown to Temara Prison in Morocco.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37He was Binyam Mohamed,
0:27:37 > 0:27:42the man who the FBI claim met 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45He says his Moroccan interrogators beat him
0:27:45 > 0:27:49and slashed his chest and penis with a scalpel.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52According to secret documents released by a British court,
0:27:52 > 0:27:55it would appear the Americans were in control.
0:27:55 > 0:28:00Binyam Mohamed alleges that, when he was rendered by the CIA
0:28:00 > 0:28:04to Morocco, into the hands of the Moroccan interrogators,
0:28:04 > 0:28:06he suffered horrific torture.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09He says that his Moroccan interrogators
0:28:09 > 0:28:12cut his penis with a razor blade. Is that possible?
0:28:12 > 0:28:16I do not bel-... Is it possible? I guess I would have to say yes.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19Do I believe that to be true? No.
0:28:19 > 0:28:25And I have....unfortunately reasons I can't delve into here publicly,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28but I have strong reasons to believe that it is not true.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30He did not have his penis slashed with a razor blade?
0:28:30 > 0:28:33- He was not mistreated in that way. - How can you be so sure?
0:28:33 > 0:28:37Um... That is as far as I can go.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40The bottom line is, what was he doing in Morocco?
0:28:40 > 0:28:43He sure wasn't taken there for a Club Med vacation, was he?
0:28:43 > 0:28:46He was taken there because they wanted to torture him,
0:28:46 > 0:28:48and when they did torture him,
0:28:48 > 0:28:51he confessed that there was going to be a nuclear-bomb attack
0:28:51 > 0:28:55in New York City. That is total drivel,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58is the legal term for it. And this is a classic example
0:28:58 > 0:29:00of what you get when you torture people -
0:29:00 > 0:29:03stuff that doesn't help your intelligence,
0:29:03 > 0:29:05but it helps confuse everybody.
0:29:06 > 0:29:10After 18 months' oppressive detention in Morocco,
0:29:10 > 0:29:12the Americans flew Mohamed to Afghanistan,
0:29:12 > 0:29:16to the CIA's so-called dark prison in Kabul
0:29:16 > 0:29:19for yet more interrogation.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22He alleges he was kept in pitch darkness,
0:29:22 > 0:29:26hung up for two days at a time, and bombarded with deafening music.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30He then spent four years at Guantanamo Bay.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35I first met Binyam Mohamed in Guantanamo Bay,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38and I spent three days sitting across a table from him
0:29:38 > 0:29:43while he described to me something that I thought only appeared in horror films.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48In the end, the US dropped all charges.
0:29:48 > 0:29:53In 2009, Binyam Mohamed arrived back in the UK.
0:29:53 > 0:29:58He alleges British intelligence was complicit in his torture.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02He revealed that during his detention in Pakistan,
0:30:02 > 0:30:05he was visited by an MI5 officer.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08MI5 sent his interrogators questions.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13The MI5 officer then made three visits to Morocco
0:30:13 > 0:30:16whilst Mohamed was being interrogated there,
0:30:16 > 0:30:19but we don't know if those trips were in connection with him.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24'Complicity in torture is a criminal offence,
0:30:24 > 0:30:27'but a police investigation into Mohamed's allegations
0:30:27 > 0:30:30'has not resulted in prosecution.'
0:30:30 > 0:30:33The longer these questions remain unanswered,
0:30:33 > 0:30:36the bigger the stain on our reputation as a country
0:30:36 > 0:30:39that believes in freedom and fairness and human rights.
0:30:42 > 0:30:44'Last year, the government took the unusual step
0:30:44 > 0:30:47'of paying compensation to Binyam Mohamed
0:30:47 > 0:30:50'and other alleged victims of torture and rendition,
0:30:50 > 0:30:53'without accepting any liability.'
0:30:54 > 0:30:57It left a bit of an unpleasant taste in the mouth.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01But, on the other hand, better to get that out of the way,
0:31:01 > 0:31:03let counter-terrorist professionals focus
0:31:03 > 0:31:06on what they're supposed to be focussing on,
0:31:06 > 0:31:08which is stopping further terrorist attacks.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12'The government has now set up an official enquiry
0:31:12 > 0:31:16'to examine all the allegations of British complicity in torture.'
0:31:21 > 0:31:23Many allege they were tortured in Pakistan,
0:31:23 > 0:31:27and forced into confessions by its notorious intelligence agency,
0:31:27 > 0:31:29the ISI.
0:31:29 > 0:31:34Salahuddin Amin from Luton alleges he was visited by MI5
0:31:34 > 0:31:38whilst being tortured in Pakistan over ten months.
0:31:38 > 0:31:41When he was being interviewed, they would at times blindfold him,
0:31:41 > 0:31:44and they had these belts
0:31:44 > 0:31:47of different sizes,
0:31:47 > 0:31:50and they would beat him up with those.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53- They scared him with a drill. - With a drill?- Yeah.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55- What did they do? - They'd say things like,
0:31:55 > 0:31:58they'll put a hole up his backside.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02He was told by the ISI officers that "It's our friends that want you,"
0:32:02 > 0:32:05referring to the United Kingdom officials.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08The interesting part about this is that he was also interviewed
0:32:08 > 0:32:12by the United Kingdom officials approximately ten or 11 or 12 times,
0:32:12 > 0:32:15around that time, from Salahuddin Amin's recollection.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18Later, at London's Paddington police station,
0:32:18 > 0:32:21Amin confessed to involvement in a bomb plot.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23He was sentenced to life.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26But he insists this was a miscarriage of justice
0:32:26 > 0:32:29because of his torture and British complicity in it.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31I am very clear that we are not,
0:32:31 > 0:32:34and have not been, complicit in torture.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37And I am in no doubt that all the countries concerned,
0:32:37 > 0:32:40including Pakistan and indeed the United States,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43were very well aware of what British policy was,
0:32:43 > 0:32:47which was, "We don't do this. We don't ask other people to do it."
0:32:47 > 0:32:51The British government say they told Pakistan -
0:32:51 > 0:32:55perhaps you directly - that they do not want the ISI
0:32:55 > 0:33:00to torture British citizens, British subjects.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Have you any recollection of that being said to you
0:33:03 > 0:33:06- on behalf the British government? - Never.
0:33:07 > 0:33:09Never once. I don't remember at all.
0:33:09 > 0:33:12They haven't said, "We're concerned about the treatment
0:33:12 > 0:33:15British subjects are getting in Pakistan."
0:33:15 > 0:33:17- "Please don't do it. Don't torture them."- No.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20- "We don't agree with it." - No.- Nothing?- Not at all.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23Would you be surprised if they had said that to you?
0:33:24 > 0:33:28Well, maybe they wanted us to carry on whatever we were doing.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32It was a tacit approval of whatever we were doing.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34President Musharraf told me
0:33:34 > 0:33:38that "Maybe they wanted us to carry on with whatever we were doing."
0:33:38 > 0:33:40"It was tacit approval."
0:33:40 > 0:33:45He's wrong. There was no tacit approval of torture.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48There was no blind eye turned?
0:33:48 > 0:33:50No.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53Is Britain complicit in torture?
0:33:53 > 0:33:55No.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59I think this raises a much broader question.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03Al-Qaeda is a global threat.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05To counter it...
0:34:06 > 0:34:09..we need to talk to...
0:34:09 > 0:34:12services throughout the world.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16We have to be careful and cautious in some of those relationships,
0:34:16 > 0:34:20but to decide that we're never going to talk
0:34:20 > 0:34:25to the following 50 countries in any circumstances
0:34:25 > 0:34:29means that you are deciding deliberately
0:34:29 > 0:34:35not to try and find out information that you need to know.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37In 2006,
0:34:37 > 0:34:41a secret government document about dealing with foreign agencies
0:34:41 > 0:34:44considering that in extreme circumstances,
0:34:44 > 0:34:49life-saving intelligence should be weighed against the level of mistreatment anticipated.
0:34:49 > 0:34:54In 2010, the document was revised, and that reference omitted.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57And that's the difficult dilemma.
0:34:57 > 0:35:01MI5 cannot avoid dealing with Pakistan's intelligence services,
0:35:01 > 0:35:04whatever their notoriety.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10Pakistan is the crucible of al-Qaeda's operations.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Hundreds of young Britons have travelled there
0:35:13 > 0:35:16for terrorist training.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20Daoud - not his real name - is one of them.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23We've disguised his voice.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26- Good to see you. How you doing? OK?- I'm fine.
0:35:27 > 0:35:32I learned how to fire a weapon, to strip down an AK-47,
0:35:32 > 0:35:34how to clean it, put it back together,
0:35:34 > 0:35:37and after a while, I could do this blindfolded.
0:35:39 > 0:35:43In a safe house in Karachi, Daoud met the number-three in al-Qaeda,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46the mastermind of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51In the safe house, we had one or two brainstorming sessions
0:35:51 > 0:35:54in which we'd talk about possible attacks -
0:35:54 > 0:35:57you know, if we were to plan an attack,
0:35:57 > 0:36:00what we'd do ourselves.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04But I think these sessions were probably quite common in the safe houses.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08And when you had a meeting with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,
0:36:08 > 0:36:11what did he say to you?
0:36:11 > 0:36:16He asked me if I would be interested in doing a martyrdom operation,
0:36:16 > 0:36:20to strap a bomb to myself or something.
0:36:21 > 0:36:25I said that I wouldn't. He didn't press or ask me why,
0:36:25 > 0:36:28and that was kind of the end of that conversation.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32I suppose I didn't want to die.
0:36:32 > 0:36:34Also, you know, I...
0:36:34 > 0:36:37I had some reservations about, you know...
0:36:37 > 0:36:39blowing up innocent people.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45Daoud has returned to the UK and turned his back on extremism.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's days were numbered.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54A year and a half after 9/11, al-Qaeda's operational head
0:36:54 > 0:36:56was finally captured in Pakistan.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,
0:36:59 > 0:37:02the man who masterminded the September 11th attacks,
0:37:02 > 0:37:07is no longer a problem to the United States of America.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09CHEERING / APPLAUSE
0:37:09 > 0:37:13This was the melting of an iceberg. A man who had been for years
0:37:13 > 0:37:17at the heart of the organisation, inspiration for the leadership...
0:37:17 > 0:37:19He was irreplaceable.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23The key to all the major al-Qaeda attacks,
0:37:23 > 0:37:27Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, personally beheaded the American journalist
0:37:27 > 0:37:29Daniel Pearl.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33The CIA was confident their new interrogation techniques
0:37:33 > 0:37:36could force him to reveal al-Qaeda's secrets.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41Now, here you are dealing with people
0:37:41 > 0:37:43who have been slaughtering human beings
0:37:43 > 0:37:45as if they are goats or chicken,
0:37:45 > 0:37:50slaughtering a man, taking his head off and putting it on his chest.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52Now, you are dealing with such a man,
0:37:52 > 0:37:57so society expects you to be very civil with them.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59But let's, er...
0:37:59 > 0:38:02If you... Unusual circumstances
0:38:02 > 0:38:05demand unusual measures.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10The CIA rendered Khalil Sheikh Mohammed
0:38:10 > 0:38:13from Pakistan to a black site thought to be in Poland.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16They went to work to break him, going even further
0:38:16 > 0:38:18than ever before.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21He was made to stand for up to three days,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23deprived of sleep for over seven,
0:38:23 > 0:38:26slapped, made to wear a nappy,
0:38:26 > 0:38:28and locked in the dog box.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31He was waterboarded more than anyone else -
0:38:31 > 0:38:37183 times, all in the single month of March 2003.
0:38:38 > 0:38:42What happened afterwards is, we learned life-saving intelligence.
0:38:42 > 0:38:46We learned life-saving information. I know there's been a grand debate -
0:38:46 > 0:38:50"Torture never works", "They'll say anything to stop this" and so on.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53And the reality is, this did work.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56What was the intelligence that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed produced
0:38:56 > 0:38:59after having been waterboarded 183 times?
0:38:59 > 0:39:04He provided us a treasure trove of operational details.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07- Give me some of the treasures. - I'm at a loss
0:39:07 > 0:39:09to begin to list all of the things.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12- Is waterboarding torture?- Yes.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16- You say that unequivocally?- Yes.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22When did you discover that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
0:39:22 > 0:39:24had been waterboarded 183 times?
0:39:24 > 0:39:28I didn't discover that till after I'd retired.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31It was clear before I retired,
0:39:31 > 0:39:34but not that long before I retired,
0:39:34 > 0:39:38that he had been waterboarded. I had no idea of the scale of it.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40- And your reaction?- Shock.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Surprise?
0:39:43 > 0:39:48Not by that stage, but I was surprised that Americans,
0:39:48 > 0:39:51and I think a number of Americans were surprised,
0:39:51 > 0:39:55that they decided this was appropriate.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59But did this torture really work?
0:39:59 > 0:40:03Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, KSM, is said to have provided intelligence
0:40:03 > 0:40:05about a number of potential plots -
0:40:05 > 0:40:07blowing up the Brooklyn Bridge in New York,
0:40:07 > 0:40:10crashing planes into Canary Wharf and Heathrow.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13But were they real and about to happen?
0:40:13 > 0:40:15If you look at Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,
0:40:15 > 0:40:18what you find is, he admitted to almost everything
0:40:18 > 0:40:22on the face of the Earth that was conceivable he could have done.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25As one FBI interrogator said to me,
0:40:25 > 0:40:27about maybe ten percent
0:40:27 > 0:40:30of what KSM admitted to
0:40:30 > 0:40:35might have been perpetrated in some way, directly or indirectly,
0:40:35 > 0:40:37at his behest or at al-Qaeda's behest.
0:40:37 > 0:40:41Did you see the intelligence that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed produced?
0:40:41 > 0:40:45Yes, I did. People are looking for an easy headline.
0:40:45 > 0:40:49Did he talk about something that allowed us to protect Canary Wharf,
0:40:49 > 0:40:53to allow us to protect Heathrow Airport? You have to understand...
0:40:53 > 0:40:57- Did he?- He revealed information that allowed us to break plots, sure.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02In at least one case he provided crucial intelligence
0:41:02 > 0:41:05which reportedly saved many innocent lives.
0:41:07 > 0:41:10One of the people he identified was Dhiren Barot
0:41:10 > 0:41:12from Kilburn, North London.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16Even before 9/11, Barot carried out reconnaissance
0:41:16 > 0:41:19and videoed financial targets in the USA,
0:41:19 > 0:41:21including the New York Stock Exchange.
0:41:21 > 0:41:25Barot's reports contained chilling detail.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27He describes one building as
0:41:27 > 0:41:30"a glass house, devastating when shattered."
0:41:30 > 0:41:33"Each piece of glass becomes a potential flying piece
0:41:33 > 0:41:36of cutthroat shrapnel."
0:41:37 > 0:41:40The work he'd done in New York City to case various targets,
0:41:40 > 0:41:45the sophistication, which was, for us, remarkable...
0:41:45 > 0:41:49Al-Qaeda still was looking at potentially catastrophic attacks
0:41:49 > 0:41:52in the same city they'd attacked on 9/11.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57And Barot had plans for a series of attacks in Britain -
0:41:57 > 0:42:01driving a limousine packed with explosives into a basement car park
0:42:01 > 0:42:04and setting off a so-called dirty nuclear bomb.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06But before he could act,
0:42:06 > 0:42:09he was arrested and sentenced to life imprisonment.
0:42:14 > 0:42:16How did you get on to Dhiren Barot?
0:42:16 > 0:42:20- Through intelligence. - Wasn't it the result of information
0:42:20 > 0:42:23that came from the interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
0:42:23 > 0:42:27Some information from there, but not exclusively.
0:42:27 > 0:42:30Such fragments help build the intelligence picture.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33According to some former CIA chiefs,
0:42:33 > 0:42:37a crucial piece of information that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed provided
0:42:37 > 0:42:40was confirming the nickname of the al-Qaeda courier
0:42:40 > 0:42:43who finally led the CIA to Bin Laden.
0:42:43 > 0:42:46This has prompted a fierce debate in America
0:42:46 > 0:42:48about the justification for torture.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52It would be absurd to say that torture never gets a result
0:42:52 > 0:42:56that's true. Of course it does. I could torture you and get your name
0:42:56 > 0:42:59very quickly. But the first question you always have to ask is this.
0:42:59 > 0:43:04Is torturing someone making the world safer,
0:43:04 > 0:43:07or is it in fact inspiring people that we're such hypocrites
0:43:07 > 0:43:11about democracy and the rule of law that they hate us more?
0:43:11 > 0:43:13Now, you cannot look at the last ten years
0:43:13 > 0:43:17and say that what we did in Guantanamo Bay,
0:43:17 > 0:43:19and the torture that we've done elsewhere,
0:43:19 > 0:43:23has made the world safer. That's just an untenable position.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29'The intelligence from torture is often unreliable.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32'But although it's unfashionable to say so,
0:43:32 > 0:43:35'in some circumstances it can save lives,
0:43:35 > 0:43:38'however immoral it may be.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41'So is torture justified in a democratic society?
0:43:41 > 0:43:43'The answer has to be no.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46'And there's another danger.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49'Once the methods utilised in the secret war on terror
0:43:49 > 0:43:54'were exposed, al-Qaeda would be gifted a propaganda victory,
0:43:54 > 0:43:57'because alongside the secret war was a very public battle
0:43:57 > 0:43:59'for hearts and minds.'
0:43:59 > 0:44:02In the very month Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded,
0:44:02 > 0:44:06that battle was about to begin in earnest.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11The invasion of Iraq, a Muslim country,
0:44:11 > 0:44:14enraged Islamic communities around the world.
0:44:14 > 0:44:17In London, the Joint Intelligence Committee
0:44:17 > 0:44:19had privately warned Prime Minister Tony Blair
0:44:19 > 0:44:22of an increased risk of radicalisation.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26We were beginning to be very concerned
0:44:26 > 0:44:28about radicalisation.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31Once it was clear that we were going to be engaged in Iraq,
0:44:31 > 0:44:34we became increasingly aware
0:44:34 > 0:44:38that a number of young British citizens
0:44:38 > 0:44:41were supportive of the al-Qaeda ideology,
0:44:41 > 0:44:43and prepared to help.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45It was from the time of the Iraq war
0:44:45 > 0:44:50that the great increase in that radicalisation became detectable.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Did you foresee it?
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Not fully. We anticipated there'd be some,
0:44:56 > 0:44:59but not to that extent. Not to the extent there was.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01From 9/11 until now...
0:45:01 > 0:45:05But Tony Blair wasn't going to be diverted by MI5's warning.
0:45:05 > 0:45:07THEY APPLAUD
0:45:07 > 0:45:11This terrorism isn't our fault. We didn't cause it.
0:45:11 > 0:45:16It has an ideology. It killed nearly 3,000 people,
0:45:16 > 0:45:19including over 60 British, on the streets of New York,
0:45:19 > 0:45:23before the war in Afghanistan or Iraq was even thought of.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30For many, the abiding images of Iraq
0:45:30 > 0:45:32are the photos of the American military
0:45:32 > 0:45:35abusing Iraqi detainees in Abu Ghraib prison.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39Virtually none had anything to do with al-Qaeda.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41Soon, "the program" - secret rendition,
0:45:41 > 0:45:44interrogation and black sites - was exposed.
0:45:46 > 0:45:50Abu Ghraib - videos, photos...
0:45:50 > 0:45:53Recruiting goldmine.
0:45:53 > 0:45:57Propaganda bonanza for al-Qaeda. I agree.
0:45:57 > 0:45:59And now you come to the CIA programme.
0:45:59 > 0:46:03Despite what has been said on both sides of the Atlantic,
0:46:03 > 0:46:06detentions and enhanced interrogation techniques,
0:46:06 > 0:46:10I know of no evidence during the time I was in government -
0:46:10 > 0:46:13and believe me, I spent an awful lot of time on this subject -
0:46:13 > 0:46:15I know of no evidence while I was in government
0:46:15 > 0:46:19that the CIA detention programme or the CIA interrogation programme
0:46:19 > 0:46:23was in any way a recruitment or propaganda tool for al-Qaeda.
0:46:23 > 0:46:27Did torture play into the hands of al-Qaeda?
0:46:27 > 0:46:31Yes. It's a propaganda coup for them,
0:46:31 > 0:46:35to be able to say that the West,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38with its much-vaunted principles, adopts these techniques.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42- And that's damaging to the West? - I believe so.
0:46:47 > 0:46:52Al-Qaeda-inspired terrorism was about to bloody the streets of Europe,
0:46:52 > 0:46:55and the Iraq war would be blamed.
0:46:55 > 0:46:57EXPLOSION WOMAN SCREAMING
0:46:57 > 0:46:59SCREAMING
0:47:02 > 0:47:07Multiple bombs exploded on four commuter trains in Madrid.
0:47:07 > 0:47:11191 people were killed. More than 1,800 were injured.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17In the bombers' video, they made it clear
0:47:17 > 0:47:22that they'd attacked Spain because it had sent troops to Iraq.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42In Britain too, MI5 reported they were swamped by the sheer number
0:47:42 > 0:47:47of terrorist plots. The biggest-ever surveillance operation,
0:47:47 > 0:47:50codenamed Crevice, was coming to its climax.
0:47:50 > 0:47:52Just four days before Madrid,
0:47:52 > 0:47:56British intelligence secretly filmed a suspect in a lockup
0:47:56 > 0:47:59checking the fertiliser stored for a massive bomb.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02He was the leader of a British terrorist cell
0:48:02 > 0:48:06trained in Pakistan. Here too, Iraq had played its part
0:48:06 > 0:48:09in radicalising the suspects.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12It was the first time that we had seen a large group
0:48:12 > 0:48:16of young British men planning to construct and detonate
0:48:16 > 0:48:20a large bomb here in the UK.
0:48:20 > 0:48:21CAMERA CLICKS
0:48:21 > 0:48:24In Britain, the secret war was being fought
0:48:24 > 0:48:26using unprecedented surveillance.
0:48:26 > 0:48:30The police and MI5 were determined to deal with home-grown terrorists
0:48:30 > 0:48:33like the Crevice cell through the criminal courts.
0:48:34 > 0:48:36It marked a step forward
0:48:36 > 0:48:39in the relationship between the security service
0:48:39 > 0:48:41and the police. The sort of material
0:48:41 > 0:48:45that previously would have lain hidden somewhere as intelligence
0:48:45 > 0:48:49was gathered in such a way that it could be put into evidence
0:48:49 > 0:48:51to help prove the case.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58Arrests were made in and around London.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00Five members of the cell were convicted
0:49:00 > 0:49:03of planning to bomb a nightclub and a shopping centre.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07They were sentenced to life imprisonment.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09Crevice is the first one that came to court
0:49:09 > 0:49:12which people saw about, but all the time
0:49:12 > 0:49:16we had up to a dozen other ones we were worried about, or more.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19This was the one that came to the top of the heap,
0:49:19 > 0:49:21but there was masses else going on.
0:49:26 > 0:49:30The police and MI5 felt they were making real progress.
0:49:30 > 0:49:33By now they were receiving a wealth of information and leads.
0:49:33 > 0:49:37All needed to be sifted, analysed, rejected or pursued.
0:49:37 > 0:49:41But terrorists only need to get through once.
0:49:46 > 0:49:49- SHE SNAPS HER FINGERS - Black.
0:49:49 > 0:49:50Um...
0:49:50 > 0:49:53Literally, just like that, the click of a finger.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57And I thought, "I'm dead. This is my death."
0:49:57 > 0:50:00'We have thick smoke coming from'...
0:50:00 > 0:50:03Ladies and gents, we need to clear now Russell Square.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07It was the worst-ever terrorist attack in Britain.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11Three Underground trains and a London bus were targeted
0:50:11 > 0:50:13by British suicide bombers.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17'52 people were killed that day,
0:50:17 > 0:50:20'the 7th of July 2005.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22'More than 700 were injured.'
0:50:22 > 0:50:27Deep underground, Gill Hicks was fighting for her life.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30I couldn't breathe.
0:50:30 > 0:50:35I could vaguely hear some screaming.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37I looked down,
0:50:37 > 0:50:40and the ankles were just hanging by a thread
0:50:40 > 0:50:43to what remained of the rest of the legs.
0:50:43 > 0:50:45You're looking at yourself
0:50:45 > 0:50:48in a mutilated form,
0:50:48 > 0:50:50and it sort of didn't quite make any sense.
0:50:50 > 0:50:54And as I went to my right leg, my hand disappeared
0:50:54 > 0:50:56into my leg,
0:50:56 > 0:51:01and I thought, "OK, this is... this is even worse."
0:51:03 > 0:51:07Gill then passed out, on the brink of being another fatality
0:51:07 > 0:51:11in the carnage, and rescuers had no idea who she was.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15My skin colour was jet black.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17My hair was completely burnt down.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20I, of course, was unable to speak.
0:51:20 > 0:51:24That morning I was without identity.
0:51:24 > 0:51:30I was simply labelled "one unknown estimated female".
0:51:32 > 0:51:35Again, the terrorists were British.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37Again, the young Muslims were motivated
0:51:37 > 0:51:40by the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan,
0:51:40 > 0:51:43and the abuses in the secret war on terror.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48They weren't people pushed out by the al-Qaeda organisation.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51They were people pulled into the revolution.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54And that represented, for me, an indication
0:51:54 > 0:51:56that the revolution was spreading,
0:51:56 > 0:51:58and we were in this for the long haul.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01The leader of the group, Mohammad Sidique Khan,
0:52:01 > 0:52:04made this video before attacking London.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Till you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture
0:52:08 > 0:52:12of my people, we will not stop this fight.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14We are at war, and I'm a soldier.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18It was his Yorkshire accent that was chilling.
0:52:18 > 0:52:22This was a person that was living in the UK,
0:52:22 > 0:52:28that mixed and lived alongside of people
0:52:28 > 0:52:31who he felt were his enemy.
0:52:31 > 0:52:35Our words are dead until we give them life with our blood.
0:52:35 > 0:52:36SIREN WAILING
0:52:36 > 0:52:40It wasn't really till I got home that evening, pretty late,
0:52:40 > 0:52:42that I felt weepy about it,.
0:52:42 > 0:52:46because obviously there'd been appalling human tragedy that day.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49My reaction was a feeling of great...
0:52:50 > 0:52:55..defeat and disappointment, that this had happened.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59I also thought that it was likely that we'd be blamed at some stage,
0:52:59 > 0:53:01which indeed happened.
0:53:05 > 0:53:08But could MI5 have prevented the London bombings?
0:53:08 > 0:53:11An inquest has finally examined the issue.
0:53:13 > 0:53:16During Operation Crevice,
0:53:16 > 0:53:19MI5 saw the main suspects meeting two men.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22They didn't know then that they were Mohammad Sidique Khan
0:53:22 > 0:53:26and his accomplice Shehzad Tanweer, who would later bomb London.
0:53:28 > 0:53:33MI5 trailed them 150 miles up the M1 to West Yorkshire,
0:53:33 > 0:53:36and secretly photographed Khan.
0:53:36 > 0:53:41It was 17 months before the 7/7 attacks.
0:53:41 > 0:53:43We can reveal new information
0:53:43 > 0:53:46that suggests perhaps more could have been done.
0:53:46 > 0:53:50MI5 was sharing its intelligence with the FBI in Washington
0:53:50 > 0:53:53in real time, on a daily basis.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58I developed a very close relationship
0:53:58 > 0:54:00to my counterparts in the UK -
0:54:00 > 0:54:02um, very close.
0:54:02 > 0:54:06Very significant exchange of sensitive information
0:54:06 > 0:54:08on an ongoing basis.
0:54:09 > 0:54:13My concern with Crevice was, "Am I seeing the whole picture?"
0:54:13 > 0:54:15OK, they're going to blow something up.
0:54:15 > 0:54:17What is the something? Who else is involved?
0:54:17 > 0:54:21How far out does this group of people reach?
0:54:21 > 0:54:24Were you concerned that there was another cell?
0:54:24 > 0:54:26Yes, we were,
0:54:26 > 0:54:30and I think the fact that the core group
0:54:30 > 0:54:33were talking to some people travelling outside of the area,
0:54:33 > 0:54:37and I believe it was to the north - that needed to be defined.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40Because if the operation goes down early,
0:54:40 > 0:54:45then you leave this bad spot that can come back and haunt you later.
0:54:45 > 0:54:47And it did.
0:54:47 > 0:54:52The FBI had a supergrass who might have identified Khan and Tanweer.
0:54:52 > 0:54:57Although MI5 told the FBI about the M1 surveillance,
0:54:57 > 0:54:59inexplicably, they didn't send the FBI
0:54:59 > 0:55:04the photograph of Khan, but only a badly cropped image of Tanweer.
0:55:04 > 0:55:08And they failed to inform West Yorkshire Special Branch immediately
0:55:08 > 0:55:12and ask them to watch the suspects. Two weeks later,
0:55:12 > 0:55:15they did provide some details about the car, addresses
0:55:15 > 0:55:18and Operation Crevice, but it was four months
0:55:18 > 0:55:21before West Yorkshire Police was given the full picture.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23By then the cell had been arrested,
0:55:23 > 0:55:26putting the London bombers on their guard.
0:55:26 > 0:55:30Why didn't MI5 notify West Yorkshire Police Special Branch
0:55:30 > 0:55:33and say, "Can you keep an eye on them?"
0:55:33 > 0:55:36"Tell us what you know about them and keep us informed."
0:55:36 > 0:55:39Key question on this is not trying to second-guess judgements
0:55:39 > 0:55:41made at the time, but to ask the key question,
0:55:41 > 0:55:45"Who actually posed a threat to the British public at the time?"
0:55:45 > 0:55:48Did Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer pose a threat
0:55:48 > 0:55:51to the public through being part of the Crevice plot?
0:55:51 > 0:55:53And the answer was no, not at that time.
0:55:53 > 0:55:57British intelligence insists their focus
0:55:57 > 0:56:01had to be on preventing the Crevice bomb plot.
0:56:01 > 0:56:03They couldn't follow every lead, and at the time,
0:56:03 > 0:56:07the London bombers were only peripheral suspects.
0:56:17 > 0:56:22For every lead that's followed, that's a lead that isn't followed.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25There's limited resources available.
0:56:25 > 0:56:26Sometimes you strike lucky.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29At other times a great deal of effort goes in,
0:56:29 > 0:56:32and nothing comes out of it.
0:56:35 > 0:56:37This is the nature of this kind of work.
0:56:37 > 0:56:40Jumping to the easy conclusion,
0:56:40 > 0:56:42to say that the security services failed -
0:56:42 > 0:56:46well, at one level, they did. The bombs went off.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49But to describe that as a failure
0:56:49 > 0:56:52is, I think, to misunderstand the nature
0:56:52 > 0:56:54of what intelligence work is about.
0:56:56 > 0:57:01The inquest absolved MI5 of any failure to prevent 7/7,
0:57:01 > 0:57:04but did criticise its handling of the surveillance photos.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07Significantly, it noted
0:57:07 > 0:57:10that intelligence-sharing between MI5 and the police
0:57:10 > 0:57:12has now improved beyond recognition.
0:57:16 > 0:57:19'For ten years now, the security services have faced
0:57:19 > 0:57:22'an unprecedented challenge.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28'After 9/11, the urgent need to prevent terrorist attacks
0:57:28 > 0:57:31'drew the Americans into the realm of abduction and torture
0:57:31 > 0:57:35'and the British into allegations of complicity.
0:57:35 > 0:57:38'A new generation of terrorists has been radicalised.
0:57:38 > 0:57:42'The 7/7 bombings are a terrible reminder
0:57:42 > 0:57:46'of just how difficult it remains to combat terrorist activities.'
0:57:46 > 0:57:49You cannot guarantee security.
0:57:49 > 0:57:52However many resources, however clever you are,
0:57:52 > 0:57:55however much you work with other people...
0:57:57 > 0:57:59..you will not stop all terrorism.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01And it's a delusion to think you will.
0:58:02 > 0:58:06Next time, the Americans take the secret war
0:58:06 > 0:58:08- to the terrorist heartland. - EXPLOSION
0:58:11 > 0:58:14But al-Qaeda shows just how resilient it is.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25Ten years on, are we any closer to winning?
0:58:27 > 0:58:31Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:58:31 > 0:58:35E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk
0:58:35 > 0:58:35.