:00:42. > :00:46.Hello. It's Liam Bretherton's mum. Is Carol about please? Maybe you
:00:46. > :00:53.could help me. We're on our way to London now. He's in the Court of
:00:53. > :00:59.Appeals. Is it the big one, we don't know which one it is? On the
:00:59. > :01:09.Strand. OK, thank you. Bye. Thanks. Bye. Yeah, it's on the Strand, that
:01:09. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :01:32.one. I thought it were. Just make CLASSICAL MUSIC PLAYS
:01:32. > :01:38.The question people asked over and over again last week is "Where are
:01:38. > :01:42.the parents?" Why aren't they keeping the rioting kids indoors.
:01:42. > :01:48.Join the dots and you can have a clear idea about why some of these
:01:48. > :01:53.young people were behaving so badly. Either there was no-one at home,
:01:53. > :01:57.they didn't much care or they'd lost control. Thank you darling.
:01:57. > :02:05.we want to have any hope of mending our broken society, family and
:02:05. > :02:15.parenting is where we have got to start. You sit in the middle.
:02:15. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:32.Families matter. Happy?, are you On Monday, 8th auling, 2011,
:02:32. > :02:36.Tottenham was into its third night of rioting and crowds had begun to
:02:36. > :02:42.gather in nearby Hackney. I'd been to an appointment earlier in the
:02:42. > :02:52.day near to Hackney Town Hall. By the time I got back, there were row
:02:52. > :02:55.
:02:55. > :03:05.afro afro of police looking like gladiators. It -- row afro, --
:03:05. > :03:13.after row, after row of police officers looking like gladiators.
:03:13. > :03:17.You put on Sky TV and it was totally surreal. You looked up, out
:03:17. > :03:20.the living room window and you could see a riot taking place. You
:03:20. > :03:25.turned to the television screen and you could see the same thing
:03:25. > :03:34.exactly on the telly. Lots of noise, helicopters and the smell of it as
:03:34. > :03:39.well, you know, you could smell the riot too, from the burning. It was
:03:39. > :03:44.shocking because it did not seem like home. It didn't seem like ham
:03:44. > :03:48.any that I've known for all these years. Liz lives on the Penbury
:03:48. > :03:52.estate, on the front line of the rioting in Hackney. I have five
:03:52. > :03:56.children living at home with me. Abigail didn't really know anything.
:03:56. > :04:00.She's only two. Romeo seemed to think it's more like cartoons or
:04:00. > :04:03.something like this, something exciting's going on. Oliver kept
:04:03. > :04:10.asking me "Are people going to come up here and put fire in our door,
:04:10. > :04:18.mum? "Bill just wanted to go. He wanted us to go. He wanted to pack
:04:18. > :04:28.the bags and go. "Let's go now." What did you say to Daniel? I said,
:04:28. > :04:30.
:04:30. > :04:36.whatever you do don't get involved Bit third day the rioting had
:04:36. > :04:41.spread out of the city into the suburbs. Do you remember the time
:04:41. > :04:46.when you first realised there were riots going on in England? It was
:04:46. > :04:50.actually my mum texted me. She said you know, tpwauz was happening in
:04:50. > :04:56.Croydon, which we know quite well. I put on the television. That was
:04:56. > :04:59.the first time that I actually knew anything about it. I don't pay much
:04:59. > :05:03.attention to the news. It doesn't really interest me. I don't know
:05:03. > :05:07.how... I think everyone was talking about it. I found about it almost
:05:07. > :05:11.straight away. What was your reaction to it? Honestly, it's far
:05:11. > :05:18.away. It's not going to affect me, so I just brushed it off and didn't
:05:18. > :05:23.think about it. Then it got closer to home and then yeah, sort of went
:05:23. > :05:27.down. Due try and stop Lee going out? -- did you try and stop Lee
:05:27. > :05:31.going out? I think I did say something earlier on in the evening,
:05:31. > :05:37.I go to bed quite early. Lee went out after I was in bed, so I wasn't
:05:37. > :05:42.really aware. The curiosity was the main thing at first, to see just
:05:42. > :05:46.how out of control things could get, like, just how much anarchy could
:05:46. > :05:49.break out before the police go right, we need to step in, this is
:05:49. > :05:53.getting out of hand. I was just speck Tateing. Not a lot was going
:05:53. > :05:59.on. Suddenly everything changed. I think he opened the store. People
:05:59. > :06:04.were going out under the shutters, then going out. It was pandemonium.
:06:04. > :06:09.It was impossible not to get swept up in it. You saw people disappear
:06:09. > :06:14.in a shop, come back five, ten minutes later, TVs under their arms,
:06:14. > :06:18.games soles. It was exciting. It was... Never really thought about
:06:18. > :06:22.it that way, it was quite enjoyable being there. It was almost like a
:06:22. > :06:27.party. Everyone was unified for a common goal, which was to get into
:06:27. > :06:31.a store or get as much stuff as they can. Everyone was rejoicing
:06:31. > :06:41.and at how much they had and like, basically, like, how much of a good
:06:41. > :06:46.
:06:46. > :06:52.MUSIC By day four, the rioting had spread
:06:52. > :06:57.beyond the capital to most of England's major cities. I get a
:06:57. > :07:03.text on my phone off my friend saying "Where are you? It's started.
:07:03. > :07:07.It's going off in Manchester." I've set off straight away to go to town.
:07:07. > :07:12.I knew from how severe it had been in the other cities that this was
:07:12. > :07:17.going to change society, hopefully for the better. But regardless of
:07:17. > :07:23.that, it would be remembered. It would form a part of the history of
:07:23. > :07:26.the 21st century. The spar was ransacked within ten minutes,
:07:26. > :07:29.completely empty. People were filling their pockets, filling bags.
:07:29. > :07:32.People had brought bags with them to fill. Once people had filled
:07:32. > :07:36.their pockets, filled whatever they had, took what they could carry
:07:36. > :07:43.with them, they were helping other people fill their pockets and take
:07:43. > :07:46.the loot away. I seen a few people who I recognised, people who I knew
:07:46. > :07:51.really well, who I knew were good, honest people, quite a few of them
:07:51. > :07:57.had jobs, some of them were in uni like me. When the police turned up,
:07:57. > :08:01.we've all done a runner. I've caught up with me friends. Slipped
:08:01. > :08:06.my balaclava low enough for them to recognise me, pulled it back up.
:08:06. > :08:10.Started chatting away, idly, "How's your mum, how's your dad?" Better
:08:10. > :08:20.speed up. The police are coming. How long have you been here? It was
:08:20. > :08:25.
:08:25. > :08:30.the most surreal reunion in the LIGHT HEARTED CLASSICAL MUSIC PLAYS
:08:30. > :08:37.It was probably the only time I have ever seen London united in one
:08:37. > :08:41.kind of way, because not every area or ends as we say get along. The
:08:41. > :08:44.north get along with the north sides. And east get along with the
:08:45. > :08:52.east. If it was like that in London, it would be a much better place,
:08:52. > :09:00.trust mef. -- me. What did you do? Erm... Well, I got charged with
:09:00. > :09:09.arson. And, not going to go into what I did, but, it was very stupid,
:09:09. > :09:14.trust me. Very stupid. Was it very stupid, David? Yeah, I mean he's in
:09:14. > :09:19.front of a CCTV camera and there's something alight by a parking metre.
:09:19. > :09:25.So in front of the camera he tips, he and his friend tip a cannon
:09:25. > :09:30.rubbish on top of the fire. I mean, it's dumb, stupid, dumb and you
:09:30. > :09:35.know, it could have... Escalated. It could have spread, unlikely, but
:09:35. > :09:43.it could have done. Why did you go down? I went down to try and make
:09:43. > :09:51.some money, but there was no money to be made in Camden, trust me.
:09:51. > :09:53.What do you mean "making money"? Making money. How do you feel
:09:53. > :10:01.hearing him describe that intention? It's quite shocking
:10:01. > :10:06.really. As I listen to it I still think he doesn't have any sense
:10:06. > :10:10.that he thinks there's anything wrong in doing it? Obviously there
:10:10. > :10:16.is something wrong in doing it but... I don't think you feel
:10:16. > :10:19.particularly there's anything wrong. Well,... Same way I don't think the
:10:19. > :10:23.bankers felt they were doing anything wrong when taking high
:10:23. > :10:27.risks. There's a different morality, like if you can get away with it,
:10:27. > :10:30.whatever you get away with is OK. I think that's part of the culture.
:10:31. > :10:40.If you can get away with it fine. It's getting caught that's the
:10:41. > :10:50.
:10:50. > :10:55.When did you next see Lei? That evening. I was at home waiting. I
:10:55. > :11:02.was quite worried, you know where is he? Got a knock on the door
:11:02. > :11:07.about 1.30 and he had a few bags. had like two pairs of frainers, a
:11:08. > :11:14.bag -- trainers, a bag, a T-shirt, head phones, I think that was it
:11:14. > :11:18.yeah. What did you think? I thought good on him. I did. In hindsight it
:11:18. > :11:24.probably wasn't the best thing to think at the time. What did do you
:11:24. > :11:27.with them? Just threw them on the floor in my room. Just, as far as I
:11:27. > :11:34.was concerned they were mine now, just add to the pile of stuff that
:11:34. > :11:39.was already there. How do you feel hearing that?
:11:39. > :11:46.Do you regret not stopping him? he knows I would have wrung his
:11:46. > :11:54.neck. Yeah. He He knows that. you wrung his neck? I haven't, no.
:11:54. > :12:00.It's shocking. I felt pretty untouchable after a
:12:00. > :12:03.while. I thought, yeah, they can't do anything. I am going to get away
:12:03. > :12:13.with this. I can push the boundaries further. What boundaries
:12:13. > :12:19.
:12:19. > :12:29.I'd rather not say. Yeah, I'd rather not say. Is there anything
:12:29. > :12:30.
:12:30. > :12:33.that you regret doing? Yeah. What? I wish I'd done more. I wish I'd
:12:33. > :12:40.made even more out of the opportunity. Can you be specific?
:12:40. > :12:45.No. Liam, was there a part of you that was cross with him for going
:12:45. > :12:49.down? No. No, we'd have gone ourselves if we were young enough.
:12:49. > :12:52.Don't get cross with Ryan. No he's a good lad. He's on the right
:12:52. > :12:57.agenda. We know he's not out to cause trouble. He wants to make a
:12:57. > :13:03.difference. How would you have felt if Ryan hadn't taken part in the
:13:03. > :13:07.riots? I would have thought what's up with him. You're 18, you're
:13:07. > :13:12.angry. You're being charged �20,000 to get educated, you need to be
:13:12. > :13:18.angry lad. What's going to be achieved politically by nicking
:13:18. > :13:25.some trainers? It's a redistribution of wealth in a way,
:13:25. > :13:31.isn't it? Come on. When I seen that night I didn't see a crowd of yobs
:13:31. > :13:37.attacking random shops. I seen the disenfranchised members of the
:13:37. > :13:41.working classes attacking the shops and the Government institutions.
:13:41. > :13:51.Isn't that just your interpretation of burglary? Robbing trainers isn't
:13:51. > :14:01.
:14:01. > :14:05.political. The reasons for robbing It is absolutely disgusting. What
:14:05. > :14:12.are those parents doing? Those children should be at home. They
:14:12. > :14:19.shouldn't be out here causing mayhem. They are feral rats.
:14:19. > :14:23.Let me be absolutely clear, those responsible for this violence and
:14:23. > :14:27.looting will be made feel the consequences of their Arxz. Arxz --
:14:27. > :14:31.actions. I have this clear message to those
:14:31. > :14:41.people responsible por this criminality -- for this criminality.
:14:41. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :14:54.You will feel the full force of the In South London, Lee was working as
:14:54. > :15:00.a junior manager at a well-known DIY store.
:15:00. > :15:05.I had a text from one of the boys to say the police had arrived at
:15:05. > :15:13.work and that they had arrested Lee and I looked out the window and I
:15:13. > :15:17.saw a crowd of police coming across the green and I thought, "Oh my
:15:18. > :15:24.God." I wanted to hide. I was asleep upstairs and mum was
:15:24. > :15:27.running around the the house and I woke up saying, "What's the
:15:27. > :15:32.matter?". There was a ring on the doorbell and I thought I'm not
:15:32. > :15:37.going to answer it. No one is here. They knocked again and shouted
:15:37. > :15:41.through the better box, "If you don't open the door, we will break
:15:41. > :15:47.it down." Mum ran downstairs. They came in and we had to come
:15:47. > :15:54.into the living room with my youngest son and then I realised
:15:54. > :16:03.obviously that Lee was there and I could hear them in Lee's room and I
:16:03. > :16:09.thought well - it was upsetting. I did have a little cry.
:16:09. > :16:11.REPORTER: Weren't you cross with him? No, not cross with him. I
:16:11. > :16:16.think that he was really, really stupid.
:16:16. > :16:23.It is not the first time I have done something stupid. People do
:16:23. > :16:32.stupid things. It happens, you know. Daft. And there is that loud ring
:16:32. > :16:36.at the doorbell like somebody wants to break the bell. They said he set
:16:36. > :16:40.fire to something near a parking meter. I got scared at first
:16:40. > :16:44.because I didn't know what arson was yeah until I committed it. I
:16:44. > :16:50.heard that people can get life imprisonment which scared me
:16:50. > :16:55.because... Where did you hear that from? The police officer. Yeah,
:16:55. > :17:01.apparently you can get life for arson, I didn't know that.
:17:01. > :17:06.For days after The Riots, Liz's son Daniel promise d his mum that he
:17:06. > :17:12.hadn't been involved. Someone knocked on my door. That
:17:12. > :17:17.sort of a tap. The door opened and there were a load of police there.
:17:17. > :17:22.From then, it didn't really twig to me that it could be to do with the
:17:22. > :17:28.riot. I thought a warrant for Daniel, why? And then they showed
:17:28. > :17:33.me this warrant and mentioned his name and on it it said "violent
:17:33. > :17:37.disorder.". CCTV pictures clearly showed Daniel smashing up a paving
:17:37. > :17:41.slab while people around him through rocks at the police.
:17:41. > :17:45.believed him. I know when you are a teenager, you go through stresses
:17:45. > :17:49.and strains and you get upset and you rebel and you get angry and I
:17:49. > :17:57.know that's normal and everything, but I want you to tell me the truth.
:17:57. > :18:07.Just tell me the truth and even if I don't like it, I will still stick
:18:07. > :18:08.
:18:08. > :18:15.by you. But he didn't do that. The police cells continue to fill
:18:15. > :18:21.up, courts like this one have been working through the night. I didn't
:18:21. > :18:29.get to go to court because they went to court very quickly and so
:18:29. > :18:34.then I was scrambling to find out where he was.
:18:34. > :18:39.Fabiana pleaded guilty to arson. How did you feel about him being in
:18:39. > :18:44.prison? I wasn't happy. I had another side to me that can detach
:18:44. > :18:49.from it. I thought, "When you don't find your own self discipline it
:18:49. > :18:54.tends to come from the outside." I thought it may not be a bad thing
:18:54. > :18:58.for him. It's a wake-up call. REPORTER: Were you cross with him?
:18:58. > :19:05.Well, he is in prison and being cross isn't going to serve any
:19:05. > :19:15.purpose. It just polarize s things. I don't see that as being useful.
:19:15. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:20.Yeah, I was pisesed with him, but I wouldn't express it that way.
:19:20. > :19:25.Daniel's only hope of getting out of jail was if if his mother
:19:25. > :19:32.allowed their home to be used as his bail address.
:19:32. > :19:38.I rang the police stags -- station and asked to speak to my son. I
:19:38. > :19:42.said, "I want you to hear from me. I don't want anybody else to tell
:19:42. > :19:46.you this. I am not going to let you come back home." I was angry and
:19:46. > :19:51.upset and I wanted to be tough on him.
:19:51. > :19:59.REPORTER: And what did that mean for him? It meant that he would be
:19:59. > :20:05.going to Feltham in the morning. With public anger running high,
:20:05. > :20:09.newspapers began running appeals to track down those responsible. In
:20:09. > :20:15.Wolverhampton, Sharon Corns opened her local paper to find a centre
:20:15. > :20:21.spread covered with pictures of her daughter, Danielle. When she saw
:20:21. > :20:26.what had been written about her, Danielle was horrified.
:20:26. > :20:29.Her role in the looting is brave, but clear. She stoops to look at a
:20:29. > :20:33.doorway as if she is a the front of the queue on the first day of the
:20:34. > :20:39.Christmas sales. In the split second, she disappears through the
:20:39. > :20:44.entrance and into the darkness behind the bend. 30 seconds later
:20:44. > :20:49.she emerges with items in both hands. She said, "This is all wrong.
:20:49. > :20:52.Why is he saying this about me?" She said I need to go into the
:20:52. > :20:56.local police station and explain this because they were more or less
:20:56. > :21:00.saying if you know this girl, phone the number. We took the newspaper
:21:00. > :21:05.in and I said, "My daughter has been pictured in the newspaper. She
:21:05. > :21:10.is is here to explain why her picture is in there." They said,
:21:10. > :21:16."Oh good.". On Tuesday, 9 August, Danielle had been shopping in
:21:16. > :21:19.Wolverhampton when rioting broke out.
:21:19. > :21:26.And then Danielle rings me just after 4pm saying that it is just
:21:26. > :21:31.chaos up here. She said, "I'm having bottles thrown at me." There
:21:31. > :21:36.were fireworks going off. And then she had to get through
:21:36. > :21:41.this alleyway where the police were putting them down side streets
:21:41. > :21:46.towards the bus bus station to get the crowds through and she was told
:21:46. > :21:50.to go down Queen Street and this is where it happened.
:21:51. > :22:00.The shops had already been broken into and looted, you know and she
:22:00. > :22:06.just approached the one shop which was men's wear. She went up to the
:22:06. > :22:11.window and that's where she went up to have a closer look. Being a
:22:11. > :22:17.curious teenager, that's when the shutter falls. She said everyone
:22:17. > :22:21.was going mad and picked up two odd trainers. This man lifts the
:22:21. > :22:27.shutter up and Danielle comes out. You can actually see her fling the
:22:27. > :22:29.one trainer and drop the other and take the gloves off. Danielle's
:22:29. > :22:33.explanation seemed to satisfy the police.
:22:33. > :22:36.She was in there 15 minutes and the police officer said, "No, that's
:22:36. > :22:41.fine." We are after the more serious criminals that went up
:22:41. > :22:46.there to loot the shops that day. She explained to us, CID will be in
:22:46. > :22:54.touch in a couple of weeks. And then the next morning, they raided
:22:54. > :22:59.my house. Came in straightaway, put the handcuffs on my daughter. I
:22:59. > :23:05.said, "Is there a need for that?" He said it was for his safety. They
:23:05. > :23:10.took her to Wolverhampton Police Station. Danielle phones me and
:23:10. > :23:20.said, "Mum, they're putting three burglaries on me." I said "well,
:23:20. > :23:26.
:23:26. > :23:32.are you all right?" I knew she wasn't. She says "I
:23:32. > :23:37.don't know what to do. She saysI can't stand it in this cell and
:23:37. > :23:43.I've slit my wrists." I phoned Wolverhampton Police
:23:43. > :23:46.Station and I said, "I need to know my daughter is OK." They said "yeah,
:23:46. > :23:49.she is fine." There is a police officer sitting with her with the
:23:49. > :23:59.door open. She will be up Wolverhampton Magistrates' Court in
:23:59. > :24:13.
:24:13. > :24:16.For two or three months, it was a period where I lived in fear and
:24:16. > :24:20.worry and paranoia to a certain extent believing that you're going
:24:20. > :24:24.to get that knock on the door any minute.
:24:24. > :24:29.REPORTER: Have the police been in touch at all?
:24:29. > :24:32.But I'm prepared anyway. I have got my bag full of clothes ready. I
:24:32. > :24:38.will become a fugitive. I will go on the run?
:24:38. > :24:41.REPORTER: Really? If I have. wouldn't let him? No. The first
:24:41. > :24:47.thing I would do is go to Northern Ireland because it is part of
:24:47. > :24:51.Britain. For Northern Ireland you can enter Europe, the the border
:24:51. > :24:55.with Europe. You can go to any part of the world and they will have no
:24:55. > :24:58.idea. I have planned. This is part of the thing when you live in
:24:58. > :25:08.paranoia and you spend a lot of time thinking.
:25:08. > :25:21.
:25:21. > :25:22.Are you keeping that plan a secret? Not now!
:25:22. > :25:25.LAUGHTER We understand that a serving
:25:25. > :25:27.soldier, Liam Bretherton appeared in court 0 years old, he is -- 20-
:25:27. > :25:29.year-old old, he is charged with burglary, but denies the charges.
:25:29. > :25:31.Liam Bretherton's mother first heard of her son's involvement in
:25:31. > :25:35.The Riots on the day he was arrested.
:25:35. > :25:39.I was in work and I got a phone call off Liam saying I am in the
:25:39. > :25:46.shop around the corner from me. He locked me in and he phoned the
:25:46. > :25:51.police. I said, "Why?" So I run across and I knocked on the door
:25:51. > :25:55.and he locked the door and he said, "You can't come in." I said, "I am
:25:55. > :26:02.his mum." I realised from when the police came that he had brought
:26:02. > :26:06.this guitar from The Riots so I just told him to go and be truthful.
:26:06. > :26:12.I said, "Just about go and be truthful." And that's what he did
:26:12. > :26:17.The Riots hit Manchester while the 19-year-old paratrooper was at home
:26:17. > :26:21.from leave. He and and two friends went down down to see what was
:26:21. > :26:25.happening. A masked man appeared Liam with a guitar and he bought it
:26:25. > :26:29.for �20. But the next day, Liam discovered
:26:29. > :26:35.it was left-handed, but worth nearly �2,000 and tried to sell it
:26:35. > :26:41.in his local music shop. Why weren't you angry with him? Well, I
:26:41. > :26:46.was angry with him when it first happened because you have to know
:26:46. > :26:53.Liam. You have to know Liam. You have to know what kind of boy,
:26:53. > :26:59.young man he is. But he is the kind of man who will try and sell a
:26:59. > :27:03.stolen guitar? It was a one off. It was a one off. It was a one stupid
:27:03. > :27:09.mistake. And he has got caught up in it and somebody offered it to
:27:09. > :27:17.him and he took it. I'm sure a lot of people would buy stolen goods. I
:27:17. > :27:20.am sure a lot of people are buying stolen goods. So it is -- he is not
:27:20. > :27:24.on his own, is he? But they arrested him there and then and
:27:24. > :27:30.then we got a phone call, I think it was about 11.30 off the sergeant
:27:30. > :27:34.in the police station, he said they were detaining Liam and he would be
:27:34. > :27:39.in Manchester City Court tomorrow. Was this the first first time you
:27:39. > :27:45.had been to a court? Yes. Halfs that like? Quite daunting
:27:45. > :27:49.really. We did mouth a little conversation, didn't he? Yeah.
:27:49. > :27:59.Mostly it was sorry. Don't worry, I love you.
:27:59. > :28:00.
:28:00. > :28:03.Shush. The magistrate asked Lee's solicitor about bail and the
:28:03. > :28:07.solicitor said, "We are not applying for bail." My head just
:28:07. > :28:12.started buzzing and I thought, "What do you mean, you are not
:28:12. > :28:16.asking... "I sat there in total disbelief.
:28:16. > :28:21.We went up to the Manchester courts thinking, you know, he would
:28:21. > :28:26.probably be out today and but obviously no, he was remanded then
:28:26. > :28:31.and that was it. It was five minutes and he was back down in the
:28:31. > :28:39.cells. And then the prosecution read out the report saying they are
:28:39. > :28:44.accusing her of three burglaries to the total of �100,000. As she was
:28:44. > :28:47.going down, she said, "Mum, please phone me." I said, "I can't phone
:28:47. > :28:57.you Danielle, you are going to prison.
:28:57. > :28:57.
:28:57. > :29:01.If you want to go mad, literally, go do stupid and go to prison and
:29:01. > :29:05.you will become mad. In prison it is stress.. You think that an hour
:29:05. > :29:11.has gone by, but really and truly only five minutes has gone.
:29:11. > :29:16.Two weeks in, I was sharing with a person who killed two people. I
:29:16. > :29:26.didn't know exactly what to do because he had some mental illness.
:29:26. > :29:30.
:29:30. > :29:37.The best way I could describe it really was like, erm... It was
:29:37. > :29:47.almost like a bereavement really. That's what it felt like. I didn't
:29:47. > :29:51.
:29:51. > :29:57.cope well. Would you like a tissue? No, thank you. Yes, please. Is that
:29:57. > :30:01.all right? Yeah, sure. My first concern was how are we going to do
:30:01. > :30:07.financially? Because the three of us all help with the bills and
:30:07. > :30:10.everything. But Lei was the main bread winner. At that stage I
:30:10. > :30:15.thought to myself, right, we might not be able to live here any more.
:30:15. > :30:20.What are we going to do for food? I felt like hi to step up. I had to
:30:20. > :30:26.fill Lei's shoes. Could you tell me a bit about the family set up here.
:30:27. > :30:33.Can you tell me about how your family works. Do you want to take
:30:34. > :30:41.this one? You can. I want to hear what you have to say. I'm the man
:30:41. > :30:45.of the house. That's pretty much all I have to say. I just wanted to
:30:45. > :30:49.state my dominance in that situation. I'll let you fill in the
:30:49. > :30:52.gaps. You're the man of the house, how come? I'm the oldest, the
:30:52. > :30:57.strongest, I earn the most money. Man of the house. How did you get
:30:57. > :31:01.to this point? When we was younger my old man was a believer of
:31:01. > :31:05.hitting you to discipline you. I don't disagree with you know, give
:31:05. > :31:13.a kid a smack, get him in line. It got to the point where he got over
:31:13. > :31:17.the top. Like, he'd hit you a little bit too hard for the...
:31:17. > :31:20.Crime. Yeah, like the crime you'd committed. His reaction to our
:31:20. > :31:28.action was way over the top. One day I said look, if you ever do it
:31:28. > :31:34.again, we're going to have issues. And one day... He overstepped the
:31:34. > :31:41.mark. I had to put him in his place. I was only 15. He was a fully grown
:31:41. > :31:46.man. Did that change the relationship for good? Silence ever
:31:46. > :31:50.since. It ended it. Yeah, none of us has spoke ton him since. Have
:31:50. > :31:59.you taken over his role in a way? Yeah, you could say that. Yeah?
:31:59. > :32:09.Yeah. I think it's we're more like best friends as well as like mum
:32:09. > :32:14.
:32:14. > :32:20.and son. Yeah. It's quite a unique relationship that we have.
:32:20. > :32:24.would you describe your parentsing style? Different. Different, yeah.
:32:24. > :32:29.Because we was raised quite poorly, so we didn't have any of that
:32:29. > :32:34.instiled in us. We have to make it up as we went along. Opposite of
:32:34. > :32:37.what we was raised with and taught. Can you tell me about your
:32:37. > :32:42.upbringing? My mum raised seven of us on our own. The eldest sibling
:32:42. > :32:45.died, which turned my dad into a violent alcoholic. My mum did
:32:46. > :32:49.instil morals into us. She was a good woman. But she wasn't about
:32:49. > :32:54.enough to stop, like my brothers got into lots of trouble. Police
:32:54. > :32:57.around quite often. My mum was always at work. There was only her
:32:57. > :33:05.that had to go out and find food for us every day. It was pretty
:33:05. > :33:09.tough. I was born, kauszed the divorce through my mum having an
:33:09. > :33:14.affair, which was I was the result, which is why I have no father. My
:33:14. > :33:19.mum met an ex-soldier guy. He was violent, drunk. He used to beat her
:33:19. > :33:25.up all the time. It wasn't a nice place where I came from, put it
:33:25. > :33:30.that way. My crime days started when I was about five years old.
:33:30. > :33:35.This word "ferel", when I heard it, I thought who are they talking
:33:35. > :33:39.about you know what I mean. They don't know ferel kids. I am ferel
:33:39. > :33:43.kids or I was. Smashed the local shops was another thing. All the
:33:43. > :33:48.shops where I live are boarded up because of us. Wech used to burn
:33:48. > :33:51.the telephone box down, set the bins on fire. How would that make
:33:51. > :33:57.things better? I weren't after better at the time. That wasn't my
:33:57. > :34:01.aim. It was just to get at them. Because I wasn't thinking that far
:34:01. > :34:09.ahead, you know what I mean? You're doing it for now, aren't you?
:34:09. > :34:16.sort of effect has that upbringing had on you? Today? Just trying to
:34:16. > :34:23.get things right as a parent this time. To stop this cycle. You know
:34:23. > :34:31.of crime and criminality and jail and drugs and drink. I mean some
:34:31. > :34:41.people might say Ryan is involved in crime. He's involved in protest.
:34:41. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:08.If protesting has become a crime, Was it a difficult choice to adopt?
:35:08. > :35:11.No, it wasn't a difficult choice to adopt. In some ways I always, we'd
:35:11. > :35:14.always intended to, even before we knew we couldn't, well it was
:35:14. > :35:17.difficult to have children. We always intended, I always felt
:35:17. > :35:21.there's enough kids in the world without, I never had a thing about
:35:21. > :35:31.having my own kids. We separated three years ago. My wife went to
:35:31. > :35:34.live with my daughter in Brazil. Fabiano went there for a while, but
:35:34. > :35:38.the situation wasn't working out, let's put it that way. So he came
:35:38. > :35:48.back here. That's another source of anger, I think. Because he would
:35:48. > :35:51.
:35:51. > :35:55.prefer to be in Brazil. If I was in Brazil and I had done something
:35:55. > :36:00.like that my mum would have given me beatings to my face and
:36:00. > :36:04.everything. Your birth mother? Do you think you should have been
:36:04. > :36:10.given more discipline? What do you mean? He's describing being beaten.
:36:10. > :36:13.Well, that's not discipline. That's abuse. Discipline, if you look at
:36:14. > :36:16.the word it means following something. That's what I say if
:36:16. > :36:23.something grabs you and you are committed to it, that's a
:36:23. > :36:31.discipline. Some might say that something else is called for, I
:36:31. > :36:35.mean how successful has your parenting been? Erm... Well what do
:36:35. > :36:40.they think is called for. I think you're right something else is
:36:40. > :36:43.called for. I would not blame my parents for how I've become. I'd
:36:43. > :36:53.say the streets, secondary school is the main reason why I've become
:36:53. > :37:02.what I am. Where is Daniel's dad? He's deceased. When did he die?
:37:02. > :37:08.1995. And how old was Daniel then? One. He never knew his dad? No.
:37:08. > :37:15.your husband now, Daniel's step dad, why didn't he want to be filmed?
:37:15. > :37:19.It's embarrassing. Embarrassing? Yeah, this whole having somebody in
:37:19. > :37:23.your family that was involved in the riots, I don't mind talking
:37:23. > :37:28.about it so much because part of me is Daniel and part of Daniel is me.
:37:28. > :37:32.I have to take it on the chin. But it makes me feel like I couldn't
:37:32. > :37:40.have been a good parent. I thought I was teaching him the difference
:37:40. > :37:47.between right and wrong. I thought that he understood the boundaries,
:37:47. > :37:52.but now it makes me think either I didn't do that properly or he
:37:52. > :38:02.didn't understand or he did understand and I did do it properly
:38:02. > :38:04.
:38:04. > :38:08.and he's totally disregarded it. I don't know which it is. A lot of
:38:08. > :38:18.people blame the riots on bad parenting. Yeah. How do you feel
:38:18. > :38:23.about that? I don't think my parents are bad parents. We was
:38:23. > :38:27.raised by bad parents. We know parenting first hand. We've bent
:38:27. > :38:31.over backwards to make sure our kids are on the rights path. We
:38:31. > :38:35.have instiled morals into them. What morals have you instiled in
:38:35. > :38:40.Ryan do you think? Do the right thing and help anyone you can along
:38:40. > :38:45.the way. Is rioting the right thing? Rioting with a cause, yeah.
:38:45. > :38:49.What kind of society do you think we would live in if this, these
:38:49. > :38:54.riots happened all the time? We do live in a society where they happen
:38:54. > :38:58.all the time. Poll tax riots, miners' strikes. Riots go back as
:38:58. > :39:04.far as capitalism. Ryan's involvement in activism had begun
:39:04. > :39:08.eight months earlier at the student protests in London. It was all
:39:08. > :39:18.completely peaceful until we got to Parliament Square when the police
:39:18. > :39:21.
:39:21. > :39:26.It was the day when I started building up mental dossier of
:39:26. > :39:32.evidence against the police. When you put your shoes on that day in
:39:32. > :39:36.August, what did you want to do? Well, I wanted to see policemen
:39:36. > :39:45.being attacked. I wanted to see them being treated the way they
:39:45. > :39:55.treat us. You wanted to hurt the people who'd hurt you. You wanted
:39:55. > :40:01.
:40:02. > :40:08.to... Did you hurt them? No. probably get stopped by police,
:40:08. > :40:13.what, four times a week, three times a week, yeah. That many times
:40:13. > :40:18.and it literally is frustrating because half the time they haven't
:40:18. > :40:22.got a real reason to be stopping you. They just say oh, because he's
:40:22. > :40:26.a black male or because he's wearing that kind of, those certain
:40:26. > :40:31.clothes, because he's wearing a hoodie, because he's wearing Adidas,
:40:31. > :40:35.they like to stop you. A lot of stop and search goes on around here,
:40:35. > :40:40.naturally because there have been stabbings and shootings and murders.
:40:40. > :40:44.For some people it may build up a quiet resentment as to why they're
:40:44. > :40:53.being stopped and searched. Do you think that anger is justified?
:40:53. > :40:59.and no. Yes and no. I think because a lot of the young people here have
:40:59. > :41:04.been let down by the fact that what they thought they were maybe going
:41:04. > :41:08.to be able to get, where they felt included, now they're being maybe,
:41:08. > :41:13.they may be feeling singled out and excluded. That would make you be
:41:13. > :41:17.angry. I mean, a lot of people got to the point where they wanted to
:41:17. > :41:21.riot because they didn't feel they had anything to lose. People felt
:41:21. > :41:25.powerless. It was a way of empowering themselves. From my
:41:25. > :41:35.perspective, it seems like one set of rules for one people, a
:41:35. > :42:11.
:42:11. > :42:15.different set for another. That By the time Danielle was up in
:42:15. > :42:21.court in Wolverhampton, CCTV footage had revealed that two of
:42:21. > :42:24.the burglaries she was charged with were cases of mistaken identity.
:42:24. > :42:32.They realised the blonde girl in the jewellers wasn't Danielle, it
:42:32. > :42:37.was a different girl. They checked the CCTV from Digitech and know she
:42:37. > :42:42.didn't enter that shop. It was only Zapps she went in to have a nosey.
:42:42. > :42:47.That day when the sentencing came what was the worst case scenario?
:42:48. > :42:53.It was 24 months or possibly longer than that because I'd met people
:42:53. > :42:57.who got a lot longer for a lot less. So I was thinking oh, it might be,
:42:57. > :43:03.have to settle in sort of thing, get used to it. The judge there
:43:03. > :43:08.said, well, you know what I'm handing out to these rioters. But
:43:08. > :43:12.he was going to wait for probation reports first. Which Danielle went
:43:12. > :43:15.straight into the court hearing to do the report. Even the probation
:43:16. > :43:19.officer said, no, you'll get a suspended sentence for this
:43:19. > :43:24.Danielle. I don't know what the judge said but everyone was like oh,
:43:24. > :43:27.and then there was a quiet moment. We thought oh, is that good or bad
:43:27. > :43:33.because it was the first time that day all the cases going on, that's
:43:33. > :43:37.the first time that he'd done that. I think about eight of the 12
:43:37. > :43:43.people that were there were for the riots. Every one of them got
:43:43. > :43:48.custodial that day. Apart from me. What did you get? I got a 24-month
:43:48. > :43:53.suspended sentence and 200 hours of Community Service. 40 weeks. 40
:43:53. > :43:58.weeks suspended. No, I got a two year suspended sentence, 24 months.
:43:58. > :44:03.If I break the law in the next two years, I get a minimum of nine
:44:03. > :44:07.months in prison. What did he get in the end? He got a six-month
:44:07. > :44:12.suspended. So he got what we thought... One year suspended.
:44:12. > :44:19.suspended for one year. Six month sentence suspended for a year.
:44:19. > :44:23.of the captains from the Army was with us. And he told Liam's
:44:23. > :44:27.barrister, you know, they would punish him. They would pay his fine
:44:27. > :44:31.and take it out of his wages. They would do some form of punishment
:44:31. > :44:36.for him. If that would be sufficient. Could they go for a
:44:36. > :44:40.suspended sentence. But, you know, the outcome he didn't get a
:44:40. > :44:43.suspended sentence. He got eight months imprisonment. As a result of
:44:43. > :44:50.the prison sentence, Liam was discharged from the Army and his
:44:50. > :44:56.The judge listened to a barrister and then he listened to probation
:44:56. > :45:01.and then he said the least sentence I can give you is ten months,
:45:01. > :45:09.Danielle. So he gave her a month for every second she was in that
:45:09. > :45:13.shop. Daniel is waiting to be sentenced
:45:13. > :45:17.for violent disorder. REPORTER: How long do you think you
:45:17. > :45:23.will get? I would imagine anything roundabout nine months. It maybe
:45:23. > :45:29.more. It maybe less. And what do you think of a sentence like that
:45:29. > :45:32.for what he did? I think it is right. I think it is right.
:45:32. > :45:37.would you feel if he went to prison?
:45:37. > :45:41.I would be heart broke, honestly heart broken, wounded because I
:45:41. > :45:47.tried everything possible to make that not happen.
:45:47. > :45:51.But you didn't stop him going out that night? No and if he did go, I
:45:51. > :45:55.said, "I will never visit you if you end up in jail." I will have no
:45:55. > :46:01.contact with you and if it did happen, I would go and visit him
:46:01. > :46:07.and wi support him. How do you do you regard prison?
:46:07. > :46:13.you end up going, it is your own fault for not being careful enough
:46:13. > :46:18.when you broke law. Liam's barrister said Liam's case
:46:18. > :46:23.had played on his mind and he was going to London and he was taking
:46:23. > :46:32.it to the appeal courts because he thought the same as us, he was
:46:32. > :46:37.wrongly done by. It is not right. Just that they
:46:37. > :46:44.can't grant it. They can't go back on it so he will just have to get
:46:44. > :46:49.his head down and we couldn't have asked for better representatives.
:46:49. > :46:59.It was a long way to go for a 45 minute hearing, but we did it and
:46:59. > :47:03.
:47:03. > :47:09.we had the chance and we can't say, "We didn't try."
:47:09. > :47:13.For two days, rioters created chaos and fears and in Wolverhampton,
:47:13. > :47:19.crowds rioted shops in Queen Street, unaware a security camera was
:47:19. > :47:25.recording everyone. It picks out a blond haired girl. It was Danielle.
:47:25. > :47:32.With me is Danielle's mum, Sharon. We have had a lot of texts this
:47:32. > :47:41.morning from our listeners. One listener says, "She deserves jail."
:47:41. > :47:45.Brian says, "You do the crime, you pay the time." "I wish this girl
:47:45. > :47:49.would grow up." What do you say to those people? They don't know my
:47:49. > :47:53.daughter. They are judging her by a newspaper. That is wrong. Now the
:47:53. > :47:56.Government are going to send out signs and put an example for people,
:47:56. > :48:02.but they are not getting the ones who set fire to premises and
:48:02. > :48:07.actually lotted the -- looted the town that day. My kids know right
:48:07. > :48:14.from wrong and Danielle knows right from wrong and she should not be
:48:14. > :48:24.punished. She should be punished but not jail.
:48:24. > :48:24.
:48:24. > :48:31.Does Danielle deserve jail phone Phil right now.
:48:31. > :48:35.Well done, Sharon. Sterling defence. I'm going to defend her. She can't
:48:35. > :48:39.defend herself. It was nerve-wracking for me
:48:39. > :48:44.because I have never been through this before. I was scared. I was
:48:44. > :48:48.shaking. I just wanted to get Danielle's side over because I was
:48:48. > :48:52.so angry, I know the media have done this. They need to be told.
:48:52. > :48:58.They need to know the full story on that day.
:48:58. > :49:07.How do you feel being tarred with the brush rioter?
:49:07. > :49:17.You know what, it is the wrong thing to do.
:49:17. > :49:22.It doesn't seem like you regret much by what happened?
:49:22. > :49:28.An interesting question. I don't really regret anything I do
:49:28. > :49:31.to be honest because you know at end of the day, if you worry or
:49:32. > :49:39.regret something, what is it going to change? You just have to accept
:49:39. > :49:43.it. Deal with it. David, are you worried about the
:49:43. > :49:47.path Fabiano is on? I don't want him to get into a life of crime and
:49:47. > :49:51.end up in prison and that sort of thing. I think he has got potential
:49:51. > :50:01.to do things and I hope he will find something.
:50:01. > :50:02.
:50:02. > :50:06.But he is a 19-year-old, I can't tell him what to do.
:50:06. > :50:11.I wouldn't know how to enrol myself into no college, man. I can help
:50:11. > :50:15.you. Why haven't you done that already? Because You haven't said
:50:15. > :50:20.what you want to do. How many times did I say I wanted
:50:20. > :50:24.to be an actor? I have I have shown you a course... And you have shown
:50:24. > :50:30.me something and what do you expect me to do? I expect you to say, "Yes,
:50:30. > :50:36.I want to do it." How many times have I said yes? You haven't.
:50:36. > :50:42.I say yeah and he don't know if I say yes, I do want to do it...
:50:42. > :50:50.don't say, "Can we we go along and check it out?" It is like like for
:50:50. > :50:52.me to say, "Let's go?" Why don't you ask if you want to go and check
:50:52. > :50:57.out that place today? Why don't you ask me? Because you are the one
:50:57. > :51:03.that has that power. I show you the website and I expect you to say,
:51:03. > :51:09."Let's go." Then I will be with you. I'm asking you right here, right
:51:09. > :51:17.now, shall we go along to that theatre company? Yeah. Great. Let's
:51:17. > :51:21.do it. Is that a promise?
:51:21. > :51:29.Liam Bretherton served a third of his eight month sentence and is now
:51:29. > :51:34.out on an electronic tag. We know Liam did wrong, but where did he
:51:34. > :51:38.get the punishment from from that, eight months imprisonment and lost
:51:38. > :51:43.everything. Lost his job. What good have they done for the taxpayers
:51:43. > :51:48.now to pay for Liam? What good have they got out of that?
:51:48. > :51:54.It is not really the prison sentence I was bothered about, it
:51:54. > :52:04.was my job. You know I have worked hard for three-and-a-half years in
:52:04. > :52:05.
:52:05. > :52:10.the Army and it has just all gone within one moment.
:52:10. > :52:14.I'm embarrassed to go and sign on at the Jobcentre for Jobseeker's
:52:14. > :52:22.Allowance. I just feel embarrassed about it. I am aused to working for
:52:22. > :52:32.a living and I don't want to be sat around at home every day, taking
:52:32. > :52:38.
:52:38. > :52:42.money that I'm not doing anything for. I just think it is wrong..
:52:42. > :52:46.Fabiano, are you worried about the future, you are 19, convicted of
:52:46. > :52:56.arson, got a suspended sentence which means staying out of trouble
:52:56. > :53:08.
:53:08. > :53:18.for a year. I mean... I don't know exactly what to say.. A year to me
:53:18. > :53:21.
:53:21. > :53:24.is ap long time, yeah to not get into trouble in London anyway
:53:24. > :53:34.because I don't think that there has been a year in London that I
:53:34. > :53:49.
:53:49. > :53:51.haven't got into trouble. And thinking of going to prison has
:53:51. > :54:01.messed up. REPORTER: What do you think would
:54:01. > :54:21.
:54:21. > :54:25.be a good way forward for you? I haven't got a clue. I do not know.
:54:25. > :54:30.REPORTER: If you knew you weren't going to get caught, would you do
:54:30. > :54:34.it again? Probably. If someone said, "You are
:54:34. > :54:44.not going to get caught." Fine, off I go.
:54:44. > :54:48.
:54:48. > :54:51.I don't like that. At all. Sorry. It's all right. I would like to
:54:51. > :54:55.think that it taught him a bit more of a lesson.
:54:55. > :55:01.If I didn't get caught, I knew I would have done wrong, but because
:55:01. > :55:06.I did get caught I think I understand a wider spectrum of just
:55:06. > :55:11.how wrong it was. It hasn't just affected me solely, it has affected
:55:11. > :55:19.obviously you, grandparents, family, brothers, everybody really.
:55:19. > :55:22.So if something like that, like The Riots and that... If the same set
:55:22. > :55:27.of circumstances kicked off again, I wouldn't get involved.
:55:27. > :55:30.There we go. If I wouldn't get caught, I would.
:55:30. > :55:40.It raises a bigger question of if you don't get caught doing
:55:40. > :55:45.
:55:46. > :55:49.something, does that make it right? There is such a thing as committing
:55:49. > :55:52.a crime for the right reasons. REPORTER: Do you feel you have
:55:52. > :55:56.committed crimes for the right reasons? Regardless of what I've
:55:56. > :55:59.done, I've done it for the right reasons. Whatever I have done, I've
:56:00. > :56:04.done them for the right reasons. I'm sure of that. Everyone
:56:04. > :56:08.predicted a riot and I think a lot of people are predicting another
:56:08. > :56:13.one because a lot of the people who went out rioting want to riot again
:56:14. > :56:17.because of how they felt when they did riot for the first time.
:56:17. > :56:21.REPORTER: Do you want to riot again? Yeah.
:56:21. > :56:25.REPORTER: Why? Because nothing has changed.
:56:25. > :56:29.I stel need to explore -- still need to explore much more deeply
:56:29. > :56:33.how all that came about and why and to make sure that he doesn't go
:56:33. > :56:37.down this type of road again and that he can go and do the right
:56:37. > :56:44.thing which is what I want for him. I want him to go outside and do the
:56:44. > :56:46.right thing and be a descent member of society. That's what I want for
:56:46. > :56:51.Daniel. REPORTER: If the riots happened
:56:51. > :56:58.again tomorrow, would you go down? Yeah. I would go and have a look
:56:58. > :57:03.because it is interesting to watch. It really was. I tried to get
:57:03. > :57:08.myself a camera and document it a bit because what I found with the
:57:08. > :57:13.news was that that it wasn't... whole story.
:57:13. > :57:16.Yeah, it wasn't the whole story. It was what people looking from the
:57:16. > :57:18.outside looking in saw. They need to see what it was like being on
:57:18. > :57:26.the inside of that. REPORTER: And what was it like on
:57:26. > :57:30.the inside? It is quite fun. It was quite a big sense of comradery.
:57:30. > :57:33.Everyone kind of working towards one goal. Which was? Get some free
:57:33. > :57:38.stuff. REPORTER: Isn't the problem here
:57:38. > :57:46.that no one sees Ryan as a political protestor. They just see
:57:46. > :57:52.him as a minuteless thu? -- mindless thug. Yes.
:57:52. > :57:56.What do you think about that? suits them to see everyone the same
:57:56. > :58:01.because they don't want to look at deeper issues and social injustices
:58:01. > :58:06.and all that. Rioting is not an outcome of happiness, the