0:00:36 > 0:00:38I'm fine how we are, actually.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45I think it's better that we're not living with Dad,
0:00:45 > 0:00:50so then we don't have, like, Mum and Dad shouting at each other.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54It feels better... that way.
0:00:56 > 0:01:01It's nice like, seeing Dad, like, every other week.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04So we get to, like, keep in contact.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09I actually don't know how I've got into this situation,
0:01:09 > 0:01:13where I'm having to use a Contact Centre.
0:01:13 > 0:01:18After all, it was Dawn that left the marital home.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21- Hello.- Hello.- Come in.- Thank you.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26Since then, the way that the law is, is that I just don't see...
0:01:26 > 0:01:29see my children enough. Not nearly enough.
0:01:29 > 0:01:34And that breaks my heart every day, but I've accepted that.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Let's move on, let's get to a situation where, hopefully, my children will come back to me.
0:01:42 > 0:01:47I can imagine at the moment he's probably like a caged animal when he's in there,
0:01:47 > 0:01:51because he can't do what he wants and be what he wants.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56It's just a horrible situation really, because
0:01:56 > 0:02:01when you have these children, you don't ever want to take them away from their Dad
0:02:01 > 0:02:03- I didn't ever want to take them away from their Dad.
0:02:03 > 0:02:08It's just that they're not happy or comfortable to be with him.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14When families break up, it's common for children to feel awkward
0:02:14 > 0:02:17around the parent who doesn't live with them,
0:02:17 > 0:02:20especially if Mum and Dad have argued before splitting up.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26Contact Centres are neutral ground, a place where an estranged parent,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30usually the father, can spend precious time with their children.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42Dawn and Keith met 14 years ago.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47His first wife had recently died, leaving him with four children.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51But now, Dawn and Keith can't be in the same room together,
0:02:51 > 0:02:54and that's difficult because they have three daughters of their own.
0:02:54 > 0:03:00- Here you are. - Ooh, the evil eyes!
0:03:01 > 0:03:04Sam's the quietest,
0:03:04 > 0:03:11but at home when she knows everyone, she'll be really, really loud.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Get off!
0:03:14 > 0:03:18Vick, well, she's a drama queen really.
0:03:18 > 0:03:23She doesn't really need to go to acting.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27And me... I don't know.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35I call Nicola a dancing queen.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39Yeah, cos she's always dancing.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45And Sam, I'd say is a bit of a squawker.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47She squawks in my ear.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53And I call her moody.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58I'd describe Victoria as loud.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02Look, I've got these braces. Oh, yes!
0:04:02 > 0:04:07Crazy! And... slightly a bit thick.
0:04:08 > 0:04:13Nicola, em, show off,
0:04:13 > 0:04:17and...sometimes sweet.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22It sounds like you're making a tune.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26LAUGHTER
0:04:34 > 0:04:38I have contact, at the present moment,
0:04:38 > 0:04:43every fortnight with all three of them at the Roberts Contact Centre, which is in Portsmouth.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46And you've got to be with your children for two hours.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48Hiya love, give us a hug!
0:04:48 > 0:04:53That's really exciting, just being a father, just having fun with them.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56I've got this philosophy where we should just have a lot of fun,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58as long as we don't hurt anybody else.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01Have you got any dancing to do before Christmas?
0:05:01 > 0:05:06- What, dance competitions?- Yeah. - February's the next one.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11February's the next one? Have any of you been in any school plays recently?
0:05:11 > 0:05:14No. Ours happens in summer.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18Have you got... Are you going in the big one at the end of the year?
0:05:18 > 0:05:21- Yes.- Yeah, we have to do one.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25- Have they decided what they're going to do?- No.- No.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30It's a place where children can come and see their absent parent or absent family member,
0:05:30 > 0:05:34so the most likely use of it is when there's been parental separation
0:05:34 > 0:05:37and it's difficult for the parties to decide
0:05:37 > 0:05:42how the child is going to see the absent parent.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45Sometimes it is just that the parents can't negotiate with each other at the moment.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49They go through a lot of upset and hurt and a lot of anger,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52and sometimes being able to use a Contact Centre
0:05:52 > 0:05:55em, gives time for some of those feelings to settle.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58- I want to hear about your week first, what happened?- Em...
0:05:58 > 0:06:01- Um... Oh, we. - Hang on, Nicola was talking first.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06What happened, Nickers? Grr, I called you Nickers, I'm sorry!
0:06:06 > 0:06:08Nicola.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12LAUGHTER
0:06:12 > 0:06:16When it starts, I don't think either parent wants to have contact here,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20because the contact parent doesn't see why they should have to have contact where they're observed
0:06:20 > 0:06:24and watched by workers, and the resident parent probably doesn't think contact should happen at all.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27So neither party actually want to start having contact here.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31I hope I have the golden monkey in this pack somewhere.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34It's the best card.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38What? It's, like, cool man!
0:06:38 > 0:06:40It's an intrusion on our privacy
0:06:40 > 0:06:45that there is somebody actually listening to what I'm saying to the children, yes.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50I don't... I don't like that.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54Come on, it is important that you get some fresh air in your lungs, girls.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57It is quite a false environment for people to have contact in,
0:06:57 > 0:06:59so you do have to work quite hard with them
0:06:59 > 0:07:04to help them relax and focus on the child and not focus on the fact
0:07:04 > 0:07:06that they have people watching them.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Why Office? It's just...
0:07:09 > 0:07:14- Yes?- I am sorry, but I need to ask you what you're doing on the computer,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18- and what information is on it. - There's nothing. It's just come out of a box.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23For the two hours that I'm there I try and switch them out of my brain.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25I'm just there with my girls.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Nicola, as long as there's nothing on there and you don't connect to the internet, that's fine.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31- OK. Well, we haven't.- OK? - OK. Fair enough.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34I love my kids and all I want to do is see them.
0:07:34 > 0:07:39I want to be their father, I want to look after them,
0:07:39 > 0:07:41I want to listen to their stories,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43I want to help them with their school work,
0:07:43 > 0:07:45I want to help them with their life.
0:07:45 > 0:07:50- Ooh! There's kisses in here. Can I have a kiss?- Yeah.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52Mwah! Thank you, Victoria.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57Oooh! "To Dad from Nicola."
0:07:57 > 0:07:59No kisses?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03- No. - No, no! No kisses.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08For me, the Contact Centre is brilliant
0:08:08 > 0:08:15because I don't have to see him and speak to him if I pick them up or drop them off.
0:08:15 > 0:08:20I don't have to... communicate with him at all.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22And it's not that I don't want to.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26It's just that I don't need the abuse that goes with it.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30- Are you OK?- Yeah.- Strong as an ox, aren't you? I love you very much.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34I'll be extremely sad the moment they leave.
0:08:34 > 0:08:40Sometimes that lasts for a long, long time. It just kills you.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44You get three stab wounds in the heart when they leave,
0:08:44 > 0:08:48and you know, that you're not going to see them for another fortnight.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56Thank you. See you after Christmas.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03We're just ordinary people, you know, a father with his daughters.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07There's something wrong with the other people involved.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11I just don't understand it. It's just...
0:09:11 > 0:09:14I've got to pull myself together now.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20And... that's not the easiest thing in the world to do.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29I just tell myself that one day it'll be right.
0:09:34 > 0:09:39While Keith and Dawn spent time in court arguing over who should have the children,
0:09:39 > 0:09:44the girls have their own preferences for who they want to live with.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46Well, I would like to live with them, but I don't...
0:09:46 > 0:09:48I just don't want to upset him saying,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51"Oh, I really, really, really want to live with Mum."
0:09:51 > 0:09:54But I do want to live with them both really very, very much.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57I want to live with Mum, the same as Nik.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01Mum, Mum. Mum. Mum. Written all across our faces.
0:10:01 > 0:10:06- M-U-... - Not that type of written!
0:10:08 > 0:10:12We met at the Farnham Beer Festival first off.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15Just sort of literally bumped into each other more or less,
0:10:15 > 0:10:19and just had a quick chat. He just gave me his card
0:10:19 > 0:10:22and I phoned him up a few weeks later.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26And we arranged to go out for a drink, which he didn't turn up to
0:10:26 > 0:10:29because he'd got the wrong date and time and everything.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32So I phoned him up to give him a mouthful,
0:10:32 > 0:10:37and somehow he managed to talk me into meeting him somewhere else,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40and we just went out for a drink a few times.
0:10:40 > 0:10:48And we had a kind of a short whirlwind sort of relationship.
0:10:48 > 0:10:53And the next thing, I know I invited her back to stay with me.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58She wanted to leave her boyfriend, and that was it.
0:10:58 > 0:11:04She turned up one day with her car and all of her possessions and that was it.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06She was living with me.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11He asked me dozens of times to marry him before I sort of agreed.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14I think you just get beaten down into it.
0:11:14 > 0:11:19It's not... You know, I really wasn't looking for marriage or anything at the time,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22but you just get broken down till you agree.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26He was very nice and he was very attentive to start with,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29very attentive to start with.
0:11:29 > 0:11:36But that soon...soon dwindled off once we'd gotten married, so... Unfortunately.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42Some people, like, stay together for, like, forever
0:11:42 > 0:11:44cos they sort of, like, do everything together.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Mm, yeah. But some people don't, Vicky,
0:11:47 > 0:11:53- that's why there's loads of divorces...- Sorry.- ..in England. - Take a break.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56It's really good that you can divorce, cos if you wouldn't
0:11:56 > 0:11:59then you'd just have to live with the fighting.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02- Yeah, all day long. - And then you'd get killed!
0:12:02 > 0:12:06Grrr! Grrr! You wouldn't exactly get killed.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08You might get killed in the end.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11If it sort of like, it goes either bad or violence
0:12:11 > 0:12:15then it might even go to domestic violence, as Sam said.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Ow! You just whacked me on the back!
0:12:22 > 0:12:24Well, about six months into the relationship
0:12:24 > 0:12:30I kind of gathered that, em...
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Her biological clock was running, basically.
0:12:34 > 0:12:40And it was at this point I decided that I would have to do something
0:12:40 > 0:12:44about the fact that I wasn't able to produce children anymore,
0:12:44 > 0:12:51so I went along to a private clinic, and had a reversal operation.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55And, obviously, you know, it did work because I've had three more children,
0:12:55 > 0:13:00three children with Dawn. And we started off with twins.
0:13:03 > 0:13:08The babies come along, my husband works from home the week before they're born.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12The week I bring them home he goes back out to the office to work,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16and doesn't tell me beforehand that's what he's going to do.
0:13:16 > 0:13:21That hurt. And then I'm kind of left there on my own all day
0:13:21 > 0:13:26with nobody to talk to. Two screaming, two screaming babies.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28BABIES CRYING
0:13:28 > 0:13:35Sam, how do you feel about going to the Contact Centre?
0:13:35 > 0:13:42The usual. I wish I don't have to go. I'd to stay home do Nintendo.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47- I just don't like going.- Watch... - Vicky!
0:13:47 > 0:13:52- Is that all you want to say? - Yeah.- OK.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Helloooo!
0:13:54 > 0:14:00Hi, Vic! What do you feel about going to the Contact Centre?
0:14:00 > 0:14:02- The usual.- What?
0:14:02 > 0:14:06OK, but not OK.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11But... I do feel good, because I get to see my Dad,
0:14:11 > 0:14:16but I don't feel good because... I know what he will do.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20- And... that's it! - OK.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28So Samantha,
0:14:28 > 0:14:31have you heard anything about what's going to happen at Brookfields?
0:14:31 > 0:14:37You have to do tests, tests, tests, work, work, work. Homework...
0:14:37 > 0:14:44He was normally not there really, so I wouldn't even care if he was around or not.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47I didn't used to like doing stuff with him really,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50cos he would make it even boring.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52How would he make it boring?
0:14:52 > 0:14:55He would normally put it in, like, a school subject
0:14:55 > 0:15:02which, em, would make you normally fall asleep at school and just doze off.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05It's not boring, it can't be boring.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08A lot of your life will be like that.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12We think it's boring, we just think it's boring, and it always will be.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Oh, come on.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18I'm sorry Samantha, I've got to find a way of breaking you
0:15:18 > 0:15:21from that mould of, "It's boring".
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I'd rather fill shelves in the supermarket.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27I'd rather do that than do homework.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29I like this week's homework, but I'm rubbish at it.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31What was in your homework that was good then?
0:15:31 > 0:15:34I think they're very typical of a family
0:15:34 > 0:15:38needing to use a Contact Centre to re-establish
0:15:38 > 0:15:40both the relationship with the children and their parents,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43but it's also about building up some kind of mutual respect
0:15:43 > 0:15:45and trust eventually between the parents,
0:15:45 > 0:15:49because they are going to be linked forever via those children,
0:15:49 > 0:15:53and there is an element of being able to build up trust and respect
0:15:53 > 0:15:55and a business-like relationship
0:15:55 > 0:15:58once, you know, once it's broken down in its first instance.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Vicki, what have you been up to, what have you learnt this week?
0:16:02 > 0:16:05- Sketching.- Sketching? What did you sketch?
0:16:05 > 0:16:11- I loved art at school, what did you sketch?- I sketched boots.- Boots?
0:16:11 > 0:16:14- Mountain boots?- Yes.- Oh, OK, yeah, I know what you mean.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17- Something like, they had big soles like that at the bottom?- Yeah.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21- Why do they have soles like that?- So you can climb mountains.
0:16:21 > 0:16:26- Why does that make you able to climb a mountain then?- Cos it's got grip.
0:16:26 > 0:16:32- Why is grip important? Do you know, Samantha?- Otherwise you'd slip.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36- Yeah?- And die.- OK. - And fall.- What causes grip?
0:16:36 > 0:16:38- I don't know. - Oh, I ain't got any grip.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42I don't know, and I don't even want to know.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49Day to day life changed quite dramatically.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Dawn wanted to breast-feed the children
0:16:52 > 0:16:58and she did breast-feed the children, which, actually, is...
0:17:00 > 0:17:03..all of my other children were bottle-fed.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06Actually, when you bottle-feed a child
0:17:06 > 0:17:07there's a lot more interaction,
0:17:07 > 0:17:13so you share the burden of bringing up the children.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18As Samantha and Victoria were breast-fed,
0:17:18 > 0:17:23that interaction didn't quite start off
0:17:23 > 0:17:27as well as it could, could've done.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31They say when you have a baby it's lovely, it's wonderful.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34It was hell, to be quite honest, because I hardly ever slept,
0:17:34 > 0:17:38I hardly ever ate. It's just a constant,
0:17:38 > 0:17:42you know, you're just on tenterhooks the whole time,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45because there is nobody else there for those two babies except you.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48It was quite a struggle for Dawn,
0:17:48 > 0:17:51and I think she would admit as well that she had
0:17:51 > 0:17:55what I would describe as very serious post-natal depression.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59I tried to get involved more
0:17:59 > 0:18:02but often she would push me away, saying,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05you know, don't get involved.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08- It wasn't long before you were pregnant again.- No.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12No. That was...
0:18:13 > 0:18:17I didn't think I could cope with that. That was horrible.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23- Was that a planned pregnancy?- No.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Not at all.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32It was an accident?
0:18:37 > 0:18:40No, not... I don't know, I don't...
0:18:41 > 0:18:44It, shouldn't have happened, but...
0:18:49 > 0:18:51..it did happen. It was...
0:18:53 > 0:18:56..you know, I wouldn't be without her now, she's lovely.
0:19:02 > 0:19:09Nicola was kind of a mistake, but she did come along far too early.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12In fact...
0:19:12 > 0:19:15Dawn wanted to terminate Nicola...
0:19:17 > 0:19:19..and...
0:19:19 > 0:19:22this was something I couldn't, couldn't go ahead with.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29He once said to Nicola that what happened, well,
0:19:29 > 0:19:33before she was born, like, the decision if she was going to be...
0:19:34 > 0:19:39..um, well, if she's going to...
0:19:42 > 0:19:45- ..be here now or... - Be born.
0:19:45 > 0:19:50Yeah. To be born or to be killed really.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54In the tummy really.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56I've forgotten what that's called, but...
0:19:56 > 0:19:58When he mentioned it,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01it just upset Nicola and Nicola just...
0:20:01 > 0:20:04Yeah, but we understand what it meant though.
0:20:04 > 0:20:09I know that Nicola got affected by one of the things I did say,
0:20:09 > 0:20:12something I'll always regret, but I did say it,
0:20:12 > 0:20:15and that was, you know,
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Dawn, you tried to kill Nicola.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21And Nicola actually didn't understand that,
0:20:21 > 0:20:26that sentence at the time, but...
0:20:26 > 0:20:30and it should have been couched in a different way.
0:20:40 > 0:20:45Hi, today we're going to the Contact Centre.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48And I'm really curious what's going to happen.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52But I hope it goes well.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57Today I feel good about it,
0:20:57 > 0:21:01and I've got dancing. So that's even better.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03Bye.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11- How's your dancing coming along, Nicola?- Great.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14- What are you doing at the moment? - Dancing.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17No, I mean have you done any more ballet exams and things like that?
0:21:17 > 0:21:19No.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23- Are you due any more?- Yeah, Tap One.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25Tap One? That's not ballet.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27- Tap exam.- Oh, tap exam.
0:21:27 > 0:21:32And what do you, can you show us what you've got to do for it?
0:21:32 > 0:21:37- Can't remember.- You're being awkward again, aren't you?
0:21:37 > 0:21:41Do you think Mums and Dads should do whatever they can to stay together when they've got children?
0:21:41 > 0:21:43I suppose it's good,
0:21:43 > 0:21:46but then if they're having the fights,
0:21:46 > 0:21:48then I wouldn't,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53they shouldn't stay together.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Sometimes it's better off that they split up.
0:21:59 > 0:22:04But if it's only like, one or two fights, then I wouldn't bother,
0:22:04 > 0:22:08I think it would be nice for the family to stay together.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13- Are you still doing Tap then, Vicky? - Yeah.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17- Well, can you show me what it is? - What, what a part of it?
0:22:17 > 0:22:20- Yeah, please.- After I do this.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24When Dad took me out he'd just say he still loves her.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30And I, I was very proud of that.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33And then it came to Valentine's Day
0:22:33 > 0:22:36and he gave Mum a present and a rose.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39And then she never,
0:22:39 > 0:22:43she never opened the present or picked up the rose.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46And I thought that was a bit,
0:22:46 > 0:22:50you know, not very Valentine.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15We split up in March of this year.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17It was quite acrimonious.
0:23:19 > 0:23:20Hello!
0:23:20 > 0:23:23- Morning, sir.- Morning. I'd like to pick this up if you don't mind.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25No problem, thank you very much.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I realised the relationship wasn't going anywhere,
0:23:28 > 0:23:32and it was good that I had the opportunity of splitting up.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Yeah, that looks about right.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38My eldest daughter, Heather, asked me the question,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41did you see yourself getting old with Dawn?
0:23:41 > 0:23:43And the answer was no.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46And as soon as that actually hit the back of my head,
0:23:46 > 0:23:53I realised that was, that was a great, a great release for me.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56There we go, and that's for you.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58- How much is the box?- Oh don't worry.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01- You sure?- Yeah, no problem. - All right thank you very much.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03- Thank you then, take care. - Bye-bye.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09When Keith is finally divorced from Dawn, he's planning to marry Jill.
0:24:09 > 0:24:13She's also married and going through her own acrimonious divorce.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16She and her two sons have moved in with Keith.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21I wondered whether Jill had any sympathy for Dawn's position.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24No, no, I don't have any sympathy for, for Dawn's position.
0:24:24 > 0:24:28In actual fact, in a bit of a perverse way,
0:24:28 > 0:24:35Dawn's actually helped my ex-husband or to-be ex-husband,
0:24:35 > 0:24:40because I see the way that Keith is because he can't see his girls,
0:24:40 > 0:24:46so I'd never do anything to make the same situation arise for my sons,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49because they need to see their father.
0:24:57 > 0:25:02Dawn would either be exceptionally high and positive about herself,
0:25:02 > 0:25:07or extremely low and very negative about herself, her self-worth even.
0:25:07 > 0:25:12She was very difficult to build her up,
0:25:12 > 0:25:15she would be very depressed about herself,
0:25:15 > 0:25:20and I found it quite difficult sometimes to talk to her.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22He'd just get up and go to work in the morning
0:25:22 > 0:25:25cos he knew I'd be in pieces as he walked out the door,
0:25:25 > 0:25:27so rather than face me each morning,
0:25:27 > 0:25:30he'd just disappear without telling me.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32And that hurt.
0:25:32 > 0:25:33That hurt a lot.
0:25:33 > 0:25:37He'd come home, and all I wanted, after being on my own all day
0:25:37 > 0:25:43was, you know, somebody to talk to really, and that wasn't there.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45That, there was no communication there anymore.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48So I used to sit him down sometimes and say, "Look, you know,
0:25:48 > 0:25:51"can't you tell me what's gone on in your day? And he'd say, you know,
0:25:51 > 0:25:55"I'm working with companies that have to sign the Secrets Act,
0:25:55 > 0:25:57"so I can't tell you who I'm working with."
0:25:57 > 0:26:01I was saying, "I don't want to know all the in-depth details,
0:26:01 > 0:26:03"just, just tell me some, some of your day or something."
0:26:03 > 0:26:06But he just didn't seem to be able to do that.
0:26:09 > 0:26:15At CAFCASS, I made a punch-bag,
0:26:15 > 0:26:22cos this week was all about anger, emotions,
0:26:22 > 0:26:27so when we get angry we can't even, have to, like,
0:26:27 > 0:26:31take it out on our brothers and sisters,
0:26:31 > 0:26:36we can punch the punch-bag.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40As well as going to the Contact Centre every two weeks,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43the girls have been having family therapy sessions
0:26:43 > 0:26:45organised by CAFCASS.
0:26:47 > 0:26:52We made punch-bags and we talked about anger.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54Um...
0:26:54 > 0:26:56I really enjoyed it really.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59It's the only part of the day which I enjoy really.
0:26:59 > 0:27:06And on the last week, we're going to make squishy balls.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09I don't know what they're called,
0:27:09 > 0:27:13but when you get angry, you squeeze them.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17Stress balls, oh, yeah.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21I just remembered, they're called stress balls.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27Contact Centre visits are usually on Saturday.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31The rule is that Keith arrives first.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34Dawn comes 15 minutes later with the kids.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36It's designed so that estranged parents
0:27:36 > 0:27:39don't have to see each other.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41We are asked not to get there early,
0:27:41 > 0:27:45but it's very difficult not to sometimes.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49If you are running late, it isn't nice.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53It is extra pressure, because it looks like it's done on purpose
0:27:53 > 0:27:55to limit Dad's time with the children,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58and it's not done like that at all.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12Well, I've brought my girls' sisters and one of their brothers down
0:28:12 > 0:28:19for them to, hopefully, meet up with Samantha, Victoria and Nicola.
0:28:19 > 0:28:24But at the moment, that's not going to be allowed,
0:28:24 > 0:28:28and it's got to be agreed by Dawn
0:28:28 > 0:28:31that the sisters and brothers can all meet up.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41We trust, we do have a little bit of faith that it will happen,
0:28:41 > 0:28:45because it would be nice that they can meet their brothers and sisters.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47It's totally, totally your decision.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50If you don't want to sign that piece of paper to agree to that,
0:28:50 > 0:28:52it won't happen.
0:28:52 > 0:28:53And it's something that can,
0:28:53 > 0:28:56it would just give you all preparation time,
0:28:56 > 0:28:58yourself and the girls.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00SHE CRIES
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Whatever I do, it'll just go against me.
0:29:08 > 0:29:13Dawn has a difficult relationship with Keith's elder children.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16It was made worse when they wrote letters to the family court
0:29:16 > 0:29:19alleging that Dawn had been a bad mother to them.
0:29:22 > 0:29:25Can you go in and say to the girls, look, the other children are here
0:29:25 > 0:29:28and would you like to see them, and see what they say...?
0:29:28 > 0:29:30Would you like us to pull the girls away
0:29:30 > 0:29:32and ask them without Dad being there?
0:29:32 > 0:29:34- Yeah. Could you do that? - Yeah, we can do that.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37I mean, Victoria will definitely say yes.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39- It's the other two you'd like to ask?- Yeah.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42Just, just get their opinion on it.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44You know, it's completely up to you.
0:29:44 > 0:29:48So do you, I think it's you that would particularly like to see them.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52- Yeah? So do you two feel OK? - Yeah.- Yeah.- Brilliant. OK.
0:29:52 > 0:29:53So I'll go back and tell Mum.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56- You can go back to Dad and we'll sort it all out.- OK.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57Brilliant. Thank you, girls.
0:29:57 > 0:30:01He didn't sort of warn us that this is what he was planning on doing.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04And it's not agreed at the Contact Centre
0:30:04 > 0:30:08for anybody else to be with him, so it's just all a bit of a shock.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11So what's your favourite subject at school,
0:30:11 > 0:30:13even though you don't love school?
0:30:13 > 0:30:16- Favourite subject? - What are you best at?
0:30:16 > 0:30:19- Art.- At what?
0:30:19 > 0:30:22- Art? You're very artistic? - Yeah.- Very good.
0:30:22 > 0:30:28It just seems like a bit of a low, low trick to do,
0:30:28 > 0:30:30to put us all on the spot like that.
0:30:37 > 0:30:42It's all, I don't know, another part of his game plan, I suppose.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46Oh, I remember the first St Trinian's too. Mr Darcy died.
0:30:46 > 0:30:51Yeah, cos he was humping on someone's leg.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53LAUGHTER
0:30:53 > 0:30:56- Wait, is Mr Darcy a dog? - Yeah.
0:30:56 > 0:31:00LAUGHTER
0:31:03 > 0:31:05Why has it upset you so much?
0:31:05 > 0:31:07Because I wasn't expecting it.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11You know, they come to see their Dad,
0:31:11 > 0:31:14they don't come to see anybody else.
0:31:14 > 0:31:18It's all part of Mr Skinner's big game.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24It'll be part of, oh, their sisters were so glad to see,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27meet all their other brothers and sisters,
0:31:27 > 0:31:29and how they should all go back
0:31:29 > 0:31:32into the family home and live with him and live happily ever after,
0:31:32 > 0:31:36and Mum can piss off down the road somewhere and do what she likes.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38I don't normally eat cereal,
0:31:38 > 0:31:42I normally eat a chocolate spread wrap with fruit and a yoghurt.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE
0:31:45 > 0:31:47I don't say...
0:31:47 > 0:31:50- (AMERICAN ACCENT)- Yo'ghurt. - No! Or the other way, which is...
0:31:50 > 0:31:53Oh, yoghurt.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55You say "yoghurt".
0:31:56 > 0:32:00- Do the girls know that he's got another relationship now?- Yeah.
0:32:00 > 0:32:02- HE- hasn't told them though.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05Well, he's told them he's got a girlfriend,
0:32:05 > 0:32:08he hasn't told them that he's moved her family in with them.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16Do you think that would upset them?
0:32:16 > 0:32:18Um...
0:32:21 > 0:32:24I think it would upset Victoria,
0:32:24 > 0:32:26because she was always of the opinion
0:32:26 > 0:32:30that Daddy was lonely and on his own.
0:32:30 > 0:32:31LAUGHTER
0:32:34 > 0:32:38- But it doesn't bother you he's got a new relationship, presumably.- No.
0:32:38 > 0:32:43I worry, I worry about her and her children.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46I hope she's stronger than I am.
0:32:52 > 0:32:57I hope she's a bit more alert and awake to what's going on.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06There's nothing I can do about it.
0:33:06 > 0:33:09I thought, I did think that maybe when he got in a new relationship,
0:33:09 > 0:33:14he might back off us a bit, but it's just made him even more intense.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19It was lovely to see you.
0:33:19 > 0:33:20Take care.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24Big hug.
0:33:24 > 0:33:25Come on.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31See you soon, OK?
0:33:36 > 0:33:38THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:33:42 > 0:33:48I can absolutely, categorically say he was a wonderful father.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51And he's a very sweet and gentle man,
0:33:51 > 0:33:55and to be treated like he's going to do something wrong to his children
0:33:55 > 0:33:59is very unfair to him, because he's, he's a very gentle man.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04And we had a lovely childhood...
0:34:04 > 0:34:09a lovely childhood. We had lots of fun.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12LAUGHS I'll say that with a smile on my face, we had lots of fun,
0:34:12 > 0:34:15and so, yes.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17SHE LAUGHS
0:34:17 > 0:34:20Is he..? I thought he was laughing.
0:34:20 > 0:34:21HE CRIES
0:34:21 > 0:34:24Well, that's cruel, I thought he was laughing.
0:34:24 > 0:34:27VOICES FADE OUT
0:34:36 > 0:34:38Although he only sees his daughters every two weeks,
0:34:38 > 0:34:41Keith wants to be involved in their education
0:34:41 > 0:34:44and have an influence on the books they read.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47The specific book I want to buy is one by John Steinbeck
0:34:47 > 0:34:49called The Red Pony...
0:34:49 > 0:34:52and it's the first book that made me cry,
0:34:52 > 0:34:54and I thought that was a significant thing,
0:34:54 > 0:34:57cos I think the theme this year will be books
0:34:57 > 0:34:58and what they do to you,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01whether they make you laugh, cry or think.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05I'm going to come back here,
0:35:05 > 0:35:08make some copies of the first chapter and hopefully,
0:35:08 > 0:35:11the girls get a chance to read the fact
0:35:11 > 0:35:14that it made me cry and, perhaps, makes them cry,
0:35:14 > 0:35:17and then I'll give them the book and then they can go home
0:35:17 > 0:35:21and get the joy, the hopeful story at the end of the whole book.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28Hopefully, it'll open up their imaginations
0:35:28 > 0:35:30to the wonderful world of books.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39OK, let's have a little wager.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42I want you all to read the first two chapters,
0:35:42 > 0:35:46yeah, and bring it to me next week, the following time we see,
0:35:46 > 0:35:49with a little note of about what you've read.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52- No.- Is that good enough?- Boring.
0:35:52 > 0:35:57But there's some questions at the front of the chapter,
0:35:57 > 0:35:58which you've got to answer.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01And at the front of chapter two...
0:36:01 > 0:36:02Another question.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04..there's five more questions.
0:36:04 > 0:36:08- So there's...- So we've got to answer ten?- Ten questions.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11It's not a difficult book.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14- Can you all have a go at it? - Yeah.- All right.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17- Yeah? Who wants to take... - What's it about?
0:36:17 > 0:36:22That's the whole idea of reading it, to find out.
0:36:22 > 0:36:28- He asks us questions and then... - We answer them...
0:36:28 > 0:36:30What did you do at school?
0:36:30 > 0:36:34- "Oh, I did maths". - What did you do at school?
0:36:34 > 0:36:38"Was it really good?" "Oh, I really hated it."
0:36:39 > 0:36:43"Well, you should learn it more."
0:36:43 > 0:36:47I'm just a little bit sick of him sort of, like, asking us.
0:36:47 > 0:36:51But he is doing it, he is a Dad,
0:36:51 > 0:36:56so he should ask us how we're doing at school.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58In family court battles,
0:36:58 > 0:37:02it's not just lawyers and social workers who get involved.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06Keith agreed to be tested by a psychologist in order to assess
0:37:06 > 0:37:09his suitability for further contact with his children.
0:37:09 > 0:37:13I agreed to have a psychological test done on myself
0:37:13 > 0:37:17to prove that I'm not barking.
0:37:17 > 0:37:18I've been...since been to work,
0:37:18 > 0:37:21and I think most of the people who've spoken to me
0:37:21 > 0:37:25- think I might fail the test. - HE LAUGHS
0:37:29 > 0:37:32Why couldn't you have chosen a sweeter book?
0:37:32 > 0:37:38I was quite busy this week, I had to go and see a psychologist.
0:37:38 > 0:37:39What's a psychologist?
0:37:39 > 0:37:43- A man...- Someone who deals with, like, works with mental people,
0:37:43 > 0:37:48cos George's Mum is a psychologist.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51Yes. But the good news is that I'm not mental.
0:37:51 > 0:37:52HE LAUGHS
0:37:52 > 0:37:55- I thought you are.- I'm not.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57- You are!- That's a little bit weird.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59That means you have to go into a mental home
0:37:59 > 0:38:01and then we won't ever come there.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04No, I'm fine. I'm 100% fine.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07- Are you sure?- Yeah. - A mad people's home.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09No, I'm fine, I promise you, girls.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11What were you doing there anyway?
0:38:12 > 0:38:15- To see if he was mental.- Yeah.
0:38:15 > 0:38:20- To see if I had any problems, and I don't.- Why?- Huh?- Why?
0:38:20 > 0:38:21Cos he feels like he's mental.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24No, it has nothing to do with that.
0:38:24 > 0:38:25I was asked to do it by somebody.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27Oh, by who?
0:38:27 > 0:38:29And you did it.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33- I did it.- What if they asked you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?
0:38:33 > 0:38:36- No, I wouldn't. No, no. - Who asked you?
0:38:36 > 0:38:39I'd better not say at the moment. I'll tell you one day.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41Tell us.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44- Please. - He's not allowed to tell us.
0:38:44 > 0:38:48No. It was just something I had to do and I did it,
0:38:48 > 0:38:52to prove that I was not, I didn't have any problems, that was all.
0:38:54 > 0:38:55OK?
0:39:05 > 0:39:09We weren't friends as much as we should have been, yeah?
0:39:09 > 0:39:11When you're in a relationship,
0:39:11 > 0:39:15I think your partner has to be your best friend,
0:39:15 > 0:39:16apart from, you know,
0:39:16 > 0:39:20a guy that you've always had as a friend, if you know what I mean.
0:39:20 > 0:39:24I knew that it wasn't a perfect relationship,
0:39:24 > 0:39:29but we, we never argued, not to my recollection anyway,
0:39:29 > 0:39:33just sort of a few, a few bits and pieces.
0:39:33 > 0:39:38They were shouting at each other...
0:39:39 > 0:39:43..and then, the dog would shake,
0:39:43 > 0:39:45and like, go to her bed.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48She doesn't like shouting.
0:39:48 > 0:39:52You kind... I think I know that now.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Yeah...
0:39:55 > 0:40:00nothing really good was happening, just shouting.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03He never got to the point where he would start hitting.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07He would just use threatening words and all of that.
0:40:07 > 0:40:11And it just scared my Mum to pieces, really.
0:40:11 > 0:40:16She didn't know what to do. She was panicking, really.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18And all you'd just hear is shouting
0:40:18 > 0:40:20and especially when I was in bed,
0:40:20 > 0:40:25I used to hear Mum and Dad shout about things.
0:40:25 > 0:40:26And I hardly got to sleep.
0:40:29 > 0:40:34I didn't know what was going to happen after that.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36Towards the end, yeah, we had a lot of rows.
0:40:36 > 0:40:40Because I wouldn't stop work.
0:40:40 > 0:40:44And I think he was just trying to stop me going anywhere,
0:40:44 > 0:40:48doing anything, having anything of my own.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51And then he started checking up on me,
0:40:51 > 0:40:56you know, where was I walking the dog and, you know, where was I then?
0:40:56 > 0:40:59And the phone used to ring every lunch time,
0:40:59 > 0:41:00the phone would ring,
0:41:00 > 0:41:03and then it got to started ringing at nine o'clock,
0:41:03 > 0:41:05or just after nine o'clock,
0:41:05 > 0:41:09just to make sure that I'd come home from taking the children to school.
0:41:09 > 0:41:14I think there was another guy involved.
0:41:14 > 0:41:15Romantically?
0:41:17 > 0:41:19If not romantically,
0:41:19 > 0:41:22somebody who was pulling the strings in terms of Dawn.
0:41:23 > 0:41:27And did you confront her about that? Did you talk about it?
0:41:27 > 0:41:32Um, to a certain point, but it became...
0:41:35 > 0:41:40..it became apparent to me that it wasn't really...
0:41:40 > 0:41:46you know, it wasn't, it would have to go away on its...
0:41:46 > 0:41:49There was nothing I could really do at that stage.
0:41:49 > 0:41:50Yeah.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56Hi, this is my pumpkin.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58Film the dog.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02The man who Keith suspected of having an affair with Dawn
0:42:02 > 0:42:05is a friend and colleague of hers
0:42:05 > 0:42:08who sometimes baby-sat for the girls when Dawn was working night-shifts.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11Hi, this is my pumpkin.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14Keith asked his daughters about the relationship.
0:42:14 > 0:42:18The thing is, he used to ask me questions,
0:42:18 > 0:42:23- like, really bad questions, like, Mummy...- Rude questions.
0:42:23 > 0:42:27Are Mum and Dave sleeping together? As if.
0:42:27 > 0:42:30And the answer would be no.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34- Because Mum would never want to sleep with anybody else.- No.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38It was very, very difficult not to make those questions...
0:42:38 > 0:42:41not to ask what's going on.
0:42:41 > 0:42:46You know, you're very scared for your children's welfare.
0:42:46 > 0:42:50You want to know everything that's happening to them.
0:42:50 > 0:42:55But two hours is, you could get yourself seriously frustrated
0:42:55 > 0:42:58about something that you couldn't do anything about.
0:42:58 > 0:43:02So why would I want, you know, I've...
0:43:02 > 0:43:05I have to discipline myself not to ask those questions.
0:43:05 > 0:43:09It's still very easy to fall into that trap.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12And, what's it?
0:43:12 > 0:43:15Where did he, where did they touch me, like in,
0:43:15 > 0:43:19well, Mum thought it was the private bits and Dad said "anywhere".
0:43:19 > 0:43:22And I'm like, "Ergh, that's weird".
0:43:22 > 0:43:25Because I didn't know what he was talking about then.
0:43:25 > 0:43:28You should have asked those types of questions that you don't understand.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31I know. I did understand though.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34He's only just trying to get evidence so then he can win you,
0:43:34 > 0:43:38- well, not win you but, like... - But like now he can...- ..keep you.
0:43:38 > 0:43:42Was he worried, do you think, that you might be having an affair?
0:43:42 > 0:43:44Oh, yeah. He was in the end,
0:43:44 > 0:43:47I think because I worked so many hours in the evenings,
0:43:47 > 0:43:51and he didn't know exactly where I was all the time.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54Yeah, I think he thought that.
0:43:58 > 0:44:00But you know...
0:44:03 > 0:44:05..he didn't...
0:44:06 > 0:44:08..he didn't show me any interest,
0:44:08 > 0:44:12but he didn't want anybody else to sort of like, be with me either.
0:44:14 > 0:44:17So he had no interest in me whatsoever,
0:44:17 > 0:44:20just wanted me to just do what he wanted.
0:44:21 > 0:44:25There was there was no real passion there, or anything anymore,
0:44:25 > 0:44:27if you know what I mean.
0:44:34 > 0:44:39So when did you make the decision that you had to leave?
0:44:39 > 0:44:42After we'd had the police called out a couple of times.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47- So...- Why were the police called?
0:44:47 > 0:44:52The first time was because he'd shut me out of the house
0:44:52 > 0:44:54and I couldn't get to the kids,
0:44:54 > 0:44:57and he dragged the kids out of bed and everything.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00He wouldn't let me in to get them,
0:45:00 > 0:45:05and I could see them all, sort of like, crying
0:45:05 > 0:45:09and trying to get to me and he wouldn't let them.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11It was horrifying,
0:45:11 > 0:45:16because one night he woke us up at midnight
0:45:16 > 0:45:20and then he'd take us downstairs into the living-room,
0:45:20 > 0:45:24then I'd just hear them two shouting.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27Sometimes we were woken up in the middle of the night and he'd,
0:45:27 > 0:45:30and be dragged downstairs just to see it.
0:45:33 > 0:45:38We'd had two quite heavy discussions,
0:45:38 > 0:45:44the first one was when I found out that she'd hired a solicitor,
0:45:44 > 0:45:47and I said, "Are we having a divorce?" And she said, "No."
0:45:47 > 0:45:51At that particular argument, the police turned up
0:45:51 > 0:45:57because, it got a bit, there was just a bit of shouting, there was...
0:45:57 > 0:45:59This is what I didn't understand,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02it was just a bit of shouting between the two of us.
0:46:03 > 0:46:07I just wanted it all, it all just to end, really,
0:46:07 > 0:46:10but it never would, it would just carry on.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19I didn't feel comfortable being there for the children,
0:46:19 > 0:46:21or myself, I never knew, if I did go to work,
0:46:21 > 0:46:23if they would all be there when I got home or not.
0:46:23 > 0:46:26So I went into a refuge, a women's refuge.
0:46:29 > 0:46:34I don't think he understands domestic abuse doesn't mean you've been hit,
0:46:34 > 0:46:37I think that's what he thinks it is.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40And I think that's what he thinks he's been accused of,
0:46:40 > 0:46:42and I've never, ever said that he's hit me.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45I would, if anybody had hit me,
0:46:45 > 0:46:48I would've gone a long time before that.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54From the point of view of keeping the family together,
0:46:54 > 0:46:58perhaps I should have given up work and done everything he said
0:46:58 > 0:47:01and we'd all still be there, plodding on
0:47:01 > 0:47:03and there's almost no doubt about that in my mind.
0:47:04 > 0:47:08But I would have no, no freedom at all to do anything.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11And I'm not really sure that's really,
0:47:11 > 0:47:13I felt that I'd lived,
0:47:13 > 0:47:18existed enough and not lived enough over the previous years,
0:47:18 > 0:47:24but I don't really think that's, that's on, not really.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28Because Keith could come and go as he pleased and do whatever he wants,
0:47:28 > 0:47:30why can't the rest of the family?
0:47:33 > 0:47:39I still had no idea how and why Dawn had left. Um...
0:47:40 > 0:47:43So we get in the court room, the next thing I know,
0:47:43 > 0:47:48there's a Court Order stating that the only way I'm going to get to see my children
0:47:48 > 0:47:51is through a Contact Centre.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55But because I pushed the point very hard,
0:47:55 > 0:48:01I was able to get alternate weekends with Victoria,
0:48:01 > 0:48:07and I had Victoria from six o'clock in the evening on a Friday
0:48:07 > 0:48:10to three o'clock in the afternoon on Sunday.
0:48:10 > 0:48:14So Victoria and I were able to build a...
0:48:14 > 0:48:18phenomenal father-daughter relationship.
0:48:22 > 0:48:25That relationship didn't last long.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29One night, Keith was spotted letting the tyres down on Dawn's car.
0:48:29 > 0:48:34The police were called and Keith spent a couple of nights in a cell.
0:48:34 > 0:48:36Eventually the charges were dropped,
0:48:36 > 0:48:40but the family court stopped his weekend visits with Victoria.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51That was three months ago.
0:48:51 > 0:48:54And now Keith is on his way to court again.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57Dawn was unhappy about him taking his older children
0:48:57 > 0:48:59to the Contact Centre and felt that the type of contact
0:48:59 > 0:49:03Keith was having with his daughters should be more closely observed.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07This morning, I'm going to Southampton County Court,
0:49:07 > 0:49:12because there's a request from Dawn's solicitor
0:49:12 > 0:49:17and, presumably, Dawn herself to restrict my access to my children.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26Although Dawn is represented in court by a lawyer,
0:49:26 > 0:49:29Keith has consistently refused legal assistance.
0:49:29 > 0:49:33He doesn't want to spent money that he feels should benefit his children.
0:49:33 > 0:49:38He sometimes struggles with technicalities of the legal proceedings.
0:49:43 > 0:49:48There will be supervision and watching of what's going on...
0:49:48 > 0:49:52and that's, that I accept, I don't mind.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55I mean, I've got nothing to hide. I've not done anything wrong,
0:49:55 > 0:49:59so if anybody wants to watch us and see how well we get on,
0:49:59 > 0:50:02that'll be great, it'll be fantastic.
0:50:02 > 0:50:03Hiya.
0:50:04 > 0:50:06Oh, not too bad.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08The court ordered that the kind of contact
0:50:08 > 0:50:14Keith and the girls have should change from supported to supervised.
0:50:14 > 0:50:16The judge already agreed with me
0:50:16 > 0:50:19that I pose no threat whatsoever to the children.
0:50:19 > 0:50:22The full practical implications of this
0:50:22 > 0:50:26are explained to Keith on his next visit to the Roberts Centre.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29- Hi.- I'm Katie.- Hello, Katie. - The Children Services Manager.- OK.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32- You've heard of me, and I've heard of you.- OK, fair enough.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35I've just come to speak to you, because you've been back to court
0:50:35 > 0:50:37and you're gonna move up to supervised contact.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39No, that's not correct.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41What you have now is supportive contact,
0:50:41 > 0:50:43and we won't be able to have somebody listening
0:50:43 > 0:50:46into your conversations whilst you're here,
0:50:46 > 0:50:51so CAFCASS have said it's going to be moving to a supervised contact,
0:50:51 > 0:50:54in which case means the process will be quite different here.
0:50:54 > 0:51:00- Oh, that's not on. That's seriously unfair.- Right. OK.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02If it's the only way they can see the children,
0:51:02 > 0:51:04with the children feeling safe and comfortable,
0:51:04 > 0:51:09then surely it's got to be better than alienating them completely.
0:51:11 > 0:51:15But I just hope that there is just a way that they can eventually
0:51:15 > 0:51:18feel comfortable enough to go and see their Dad
0:51:18 > 0:51:21without doing it through the Contact Centres.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24You'd have two workers observing you while you're here,
0:51:24 > 0:51:28and they would make factual notes and observations on everything they see and hear,
0:51:28 > 0:51:30so they'd need to see and hear everything the whole time...
0:51:30 > 0:51:32That's absolutely fantastic, that bit.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35And then we give you, at the end of the session,
0:51:35 > 0:51:36the children leave as they do now,
0:51:36 > 0:51:40you have your 15 minutes, you leave and within ten working days,
0:51:40 > 0:51:43you get typed up factual observation notes, which go to all parties.
0:51:43 > 0:51:45So in that respect, that's really good.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48Everyone then has a written format of what took place.
0:51:48 > 0:51:53Well, then that's wrong, because I don't get the atmosphere,
0:51:53 > 0:51:55- the opened atmosphere...- Right.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57..and the children don't get the open atmosphere.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00The quality of your contact would be the same.
0:52:00 > 0:52:02It's a playful room, there's still enough activities,
0:52:02 > 0:52:05there's air-hockey, all the different things you could be doing,
0:52:05 > 0:52:08it's just in a different room, without the other people around.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10Well, I totally disagree,
0:52:10 > 0:52:13because, straightaway, the children seem,
0:52:13 > 0:52:17feel different about the environment,
0:52:17 > 0:52:19- they've been, they're very happy in that room.- Right.
0:52:19 > 0:52:24Listen, if you've got to do it that way, let's compromise,
0:52:24 > 0:52:28- let's make sure that my children don't lose out.- Right.
0:52:28 > 0:52:32Let's have it for half an hour, half of the time you're listening,
0:52:32 > 0:52:35and then half the time, we get a bit more freedom.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38Well, that would be out of my hands. That depends on CAFCASS.
0:52:38 > 0:52:42People usually would come in at a higher vigilance
0:52:42 > 0:52:44and then move their way down to the lower vigilance
0:52:44 > 0:52:47as relationships progress and contact progresses.
0:52:47 > 0:52:52It isn't so often that it then moves back up to a higher one,
0:52:52 > 0:52:55but sometimes that's because there's still a lack of trust
0:52:55 > 0:52:57from one of the parents to the other.
0:52:57 > 0:53:01I think in that instance there's an issue they feel
0:53:01 > 0:53:03some of the conversations are inappropriate and, of course,
0:53:03 > 0:53:05that can't be monitored in supported.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07I've got absolutely nothing to hide.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10You know, this all started
0:53:10 > 0:53:15because my elder children wanted to see their sisters.
0:53:15 > 0:53:20They came on January 2nd and it was a beautiful occasion,
0:53:20 > 0:53:25and at the end of it, Dawn made a complaint, which is not fair.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28- Right.- I'd love Dawn to get on with her life.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30Why doesn't she get on with her life
0:53:30 > 0:53:32and let the children get on with their life?
0:53:32 > 0:53:35We all ought to have an opportunity to love one another.
0:53:35 > 0:53:36I love my children to bits.
0:53:36 > 0:53:39I'm a very lucky man, I've got lots of children,
0:53:39 > 0:53:43but I am not getting enough opportunities to see them
0:53:43 > 0:53:45and love them, and treat them as beautiful children.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48Children should be allowed to play outside when it's sunny and warm.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51But the whole point of being in a Contact Centre
0:53:51 > 0:53:53is there are restraints on you, aren't there?
0:53:53 > 0:53:57- Sorry, I'm coming across as a bit aggressive.- It's OK.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00- I'm not interpreting it that way at all.- OK.- All right?
0:54:00 > 0:54:04- Cheers.- Shall we go back in?- Yes. - Ready for the girls?
0:54:04 > 0:54:07After talking to Katie, Keith rejoined his daughters
0:54:07 > 0:54:10for the last of their supported contact sessions.
0:54:10 > 0:54:11Where do Hindus come from?
0:54:11 > 0:54:14I don't know, that was a year ago.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17- OK. Does anyone remember?- No.- No.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21- Part of education is to remember things.- I know.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26What we've got to learn over the next few weeks
0:54:26 > 0:54:29is how to cultivate your memory.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32How's school going along?
0:54:32 > 0:54:35- Boring.- Oh, Samantha!
0:54:35 > 0:54:37I'm excelling in maths! There!
0:54:37 > 0:54:40- Huh?- I'm excelling in maths, there!
0:54:47 > 0:54:52It's now been 12 months since Dawn and Keith split up.
0:54:52 > 0:54:56Although it's not ideal for Keith to see his daughters in a contact centre,
0:54:56 > 0:54:59at least they're maintaining some kind of a relationship.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07In Britain, one in four children has no contact at all
0:55:07 > 0:55:09with their non-resident father.
0:55:12 > 0:55:14..get a letter for...
0:55:14 > 0:55:16Oh, I get you, yes.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18I just made up a word!
0:55:18 > 0:55:19RATTLING
0:55:21 > 0:55:24Shall we start a new game now and...
0:55:24 > 0:55:27Yeah, we'll start.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29Go!
0:55:30 > 0:55:34- Is taupe a word? - It is, actually.- Yes.
0:55:34 > 0:55:38That's the whole purpose of this game is to actually find new words,
0:55:38 > 0:55:42and why would we want to find new words?
0:55:42 > 0:55:44I don't know.
0:55:44 > 0:55:48Any ideas? Have you got an idea?
0:55:48 > 0:55:49Nope.
0:55:49 > 0:55:53- Have you ever heard of the word vocabulary?- Yes.
0:55:53 > 0:55:57And what's vocabulary? Vicki, can you tell me what vocabulary means?
0:55:57 > 0:56:01- I don't know.- Do you know what it means, Samantha?
0:56:01 > 0:56:05- Mmm...- Am I boring you?
0:56:05 > 0:56:07HE LAUGHS
0:56:07 > 0:56:11In an ideal world, eventually, it would be nice to think
0:56:11 > 0:56:16that he could have the girls, maybe not for a whole weekend,
0:56:16 > 0:56:18if they weren't comfortable with it,
0:56:18 > 0:56:20but so they're happy to go out with him,
0:56:20 > 0:56:21albeit for just a couple of hours.
0:56:21 > 0:56:26But until they're comfortable, I can't let them go.
0:56:26 > 0:56:31Can you put E on the end of go?
0:56:31 > 0:56:32And what would...
0:56:32 > 0:56:36- You need to have an S. - Goes. Yes.
0:56:36 > 0:56:40You could do gong, but you can't... No, actually, I mean,
0:56:40 > 0:56:43if it was available you could do it, but it's not available, is it?
0:56:43 > 0:56:47My Mum and Dad split up when I was young and I saw my Dad once a year
0:56:47 > 0:56:51my whole life, you know, for a couple of hours.
0:56:52 > 0:56:55But, you know, OK, I only saw him once a year,
0:56:55 > 0:57:00but I still, you know, feel that I know him a little bit,
0:57:00 > 0:57:04rather than having no contact at all and not knowing him at all.
0:57:09 > 0:57:11It's been almost a year now.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15I've had such little contact with Samantha and Nicola.
0:57:15 > 0:57:20It's sad, because I don't know them as well as I used to know them,
0:57:20 > 0:57:22and that really hurts me.
0:57:26 > 0:57:28No, I can't do any of that, darling.
0:57:28 > 0:57:33But I think they would be proud to, to be with me as their Dad.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36I know Victoria, you know...
0:57:37 > 0:57:40..if she, if she knew it was possible...
0:57:41 > 0:57:46You know, I think she'd want to come and live with me.
0:57:46 > 0:57:48Immediately.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57LAUGHTER
0:58:00 > 0:58:07I do try to keep them positive and try not to be negative about Dad.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11I don't really want them
0:58:11 > 0:58:14going through the whole of their childhood thinking, you know,
0:58:14 > 0:58:17bad things because that's the vibes they've got off me.
0:58:17 > 0:58:20They've got, that's why I want the contact there,
0:58:20 > 0:58:22so that they can make their own decisions.
0:58:22 > 0:58:23So...
0:58:25 > 0:58:29..that's how I'd like to see it. Move on.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd