0:00:02 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language
0:00:07 > 0:00:09- We met at work.- We just clicked. Something in us clicked.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12He was nice-looking.
0:00:12 > 0:00:13We just really loved each other.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19Where did all that go so sadly wrong?
0:00:20 > 0:00:23When people come to see us, their relationships are over.
0:00:23 > 0:00:28They are in dispute about the most fundamental things in their lives.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30Right, are we ready to go through?
0:00:30 > 0:00:33This is Britain's hidden world of family mediation.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37The house was going to be our financial security
0:00:37 > 0:00:39for when we sold it and downsized later in life.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41He comes back, he spends time with the kids,
0:00:41 > 0:00:43then he disappears back to his new woman.
0:00:43 > 0:00:44And I've had enough of it.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47It's just pure bitterness and that's why she's doing it.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Why should I put up with somebody who's acting like that?
0:00:49 > 0:00:53For a year, we follow the work of National Family Mediation,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55who try to help feuding couples to reach agreement.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57- Did I leave with any jewellery? - You had...
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Did I leave with any jewellery? That's all I'm asking.
0:01:00 > 0:01:01- I'm asking you.- Yes or no?
0:01:01 > 0:01:03They need to find a compromise...
0:01:03 > 0:01:0420,000 is nothing.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06I'm not just having that.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09..to avoid a costly court battle.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10Why can't you come to London?
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Why should... Why should a two-year-old child have to travel?
0:01:13 > 0:01:16- I will say something.- Are you able to stay in the room and continue?
0:01:16 > 0:01:18- Yeah, I am.- I am.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20If she's going to sit there and make snidey remarks...
0:01:37 > 0:01:38Good morning.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41- Morning.- Hi. - How are you doing?
0:01:59 > 0:02:00'I left in January.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03'We just didn't really communicate.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06'You just drift apart.'
0:02:06 > 0:02:07- Hello.- Hello.
0:02:10 > 0:02:11I didn't love him any more.
0:02:12 > 0:02:18This is to transfer the car over to you and you need to sign there.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23'The difficulty we have is a financial one.'
0:02:23 > 0:02:27I feel that she is being unfair.
0:02:27 > 0:02:28Very unfair.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35Choosing mediation can save a great deal of money and legal costs
0:02:35 > 0:02:38and a court isn't dictating what you have to do.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42Sitting down to try and resolve a dispute with your former partner
0:02:42 > 0:02:44is very sensible.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46It's also very brave.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52Sue left her husband, Peter, ten months ago.
0:02:52 > 0:02:57They have three grown-up sons, and have been married for 28 years.
0:03:00 > 0:03:01Are you ready to come up?
0:03:01 > 0:03:02- Yeah.- Great.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05They have asked Kay to help them decide how to split
0:03:05 > 0:03:08joint assets worth almost £1 million.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13There is a disagreement over how much money Sue should get.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Just this week, Sue sent me a letter...
0:03:26 > 0:03:29..saying, basically, what she wants.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31In the letter, I'd said half the value of the house
0:03:31 > 0:03:33and half of the pension.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37I don't feel that I can accept anything less than half,
0:03:37 > 0:03:39because I don't think I can survive on it.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43The starting point in law is equality.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46And that is deviated from,
0:03:46 > 0:03:48depending on the circumstances of the case
0:03:48 > 0:03:50and the needs of the individual.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52- Yeah.- And we don't know what that is yet.
0:03:52 > 0:03:56It's a fair point to say 50-50 is the starting point.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58As I understand, most negotiations,
0:03:58 > 0:04:03most couples don't agree to pay 50% of all the assets, and, in my case,
0:04:03 > 0:04:04particularly so,
0:04:04 > 0:04:08if that other the party is now living with someone else who can
0:04:08 > 0:04:11and should, in my view, be helping to support her.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16'She chose to leave.'
0:04:17 > 0:04:20She chose to leave on 21st January 2015.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26When I went up to the bedroom,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28every single item of her clothing was gone.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34The house had been cleaned more than it's ever been cleaned.
0:04:37 > 0:04:42She left a casserole for the three of us in the kitchen.
0:04:42 > 0:04:43Absolutely bizarre.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47As far as I'm concerned, as of that day,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50she had resigned from our marriage.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Furthermore, not only had she resigned from this marriage,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56she had decided to effectively have another marriage.
0:04:58 > 0:04:59What mustn't be forgotten here -
0:04:59 > 0:05:03Sue's chosen to live as husband and wife with another man,
0:05:03 > 0:05:06a wealthy man in a £1 million house,
0:05:06 > 0:05:10and it would seem like I'm being asked to fund her.
0:05:10 > 0:05:15Which I absolutely reject on all grounds, right?
0:05:15 > 0:05:17On actual... The morality of it.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24When I first left, I felt, obviously, very guilty.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29I think probably at that point, if Peter had had a legal document,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32I probably would have signed, virtually, away anything,
0:05:32 > 0:05:37because I felt so responsible for causing a lot of pain and hurt.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41But then, time goes on a bit,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43and you start thinking more clearly,
0:05:43 > 0:05:48and you start to realise that you can't possibly afford not to be
0:05:48 > 0:05:53sensible and think of... you know, like, be selfish.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58Sue is now living in the home of her new partner...
0:05:59 > 0:06:02..and relying on his financial support.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09I need the settlement to be enough for me to be able to buy a property.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11I have somewhere to live at the moment,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14but I need to support myself and be independent.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20The massive difficulty I have is, I'm not mediating with Sue.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23I'm mediating with her partner.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27The letters I receive are clearly, substantially, not written by Sue.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31Sue is not mediating herself.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39Initially, when I spoke with her,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Sue said categorically that she didn't think
0:06:42 > 0:06:47that she deserved half of all the assets.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52As time has gone by, I would say, through external influences,
0:06:52 > 0:06:54she, and mainly her partner,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57she has sort of hardened her line,
0:06:57 > 0:07:02um, and...progressively asked for more.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05Peter is an accountant.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08And so is Sue's new partner.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13In fact, he used to be Peter's boss.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15I know the man.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18I worked with him for four or five years, so I do know the man.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24Can we agree on a name that we're going to call your partner?
0:07:24 > 0:07:25I'm happy to call him Bernard.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28- Yeah?- Yeah.- OK. Thank you. - Just so that everybody can...
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Thank you, Peter. That's kind.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36# Love is...
0:07:36 > 0:07:39# The strangest thing
0:07:39 > 0:07:43# No song of birds upon the wing
0:07:43 > 0:07:48# Shall in our hearts more sweetly sing
0:07:48 > 0:07:52# Than love's old story. #
0:08:06 > 0:08:09She barred me from all her e-mails, barred me from the phone.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11She moved without trying to tell me where she went,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14so it's everything that she's tried to do to stop me seeing my boys.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16It seems like a vendetta against me.
0:08:20 > 0:08:24He's already here. So...I won't be a minute.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I always thought, if we ever split up, we'd always be best of friends.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38You know, I always thought that. I always thought he'd be
0:08:38 > 0:08:39part of my life for ever, but now...
0:08:39 > 0:08:41I wouldn't want that man in my life at all.
0:08:48 > 0:08:52About two thirds of the couples we see in mediation
0:08:52 > 0:08:55are really struggling to find a way to share in the parenting
0:08:55 > 0:08:57of their children after their break-up.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03My job as a mediator isn't to impose a solution on them,
0:09:03 > 0:09:06but to try and help them to come up with one for themselves.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Hi. D'you want to just come through?
0:09:09 > 0:09:10- Yeah, sure.- Right.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12Nicky has come to mediation
0:09:12 > 0:09:16to try to settle a dispute with her ex-partner, Martin.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20Martin wants to see their two young sons.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22But Nicky doesn't want to see Martin.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33What I'd like to start with is to ask you both, in turn,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36to say what it is that you'd like to get settled.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38The boys want to see their father.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40- Yeah.- But there's got to be a routine,
0:09:40 > 0:09:42not when it suits Martin's life.
0:09:42 > 0:09:43OK.
0:09:47 > 0:09:48How about you, Martin?
0:09:48 > 0:09:52Pretty much exactly the same, but I don't know what she means by...
0:09:52 > 0:09:55I know, like a regular routine, but then you've got...
0:09:55 > 0:09:56I work different hours and all that.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59The kids can't always be pushed to the bottom of the barrel.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01- They're not, are they? - I understand he has to work,
0:10:01 > 0:10:03but it needs to be regular routine.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07It's for the boys, so they need to know when they're seeing their dad
0:10:07 > 0:10:09and he'd make sure that he was there at that time.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14I knew her ever since she was 19.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16She used to work in the same building as me.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Nicky and Martin first got together in 1997
0:10:21 > 0:10:22at a pub in North London.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26We'd be together for a while, then wouldn't see each other,
0:10:26 > 0:10:29then you'd see each other and just things like backwards and forwards,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32really. So I was never really in a proper relationship with her.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34Ten years after they met,
0:10:34 > 0:10:39they had their first child, and Martin moved in with Nicky.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43But before their second son was born, Martin moved out again.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46I suppose, like any mother, they want the father of their children
0:10:46 > 0:10:48to be around. But if you don't get on as people,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50then it's not going to work.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53It's been worse in the last two years.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Every time we've ever had an argument, it's just straightaway,
0:10:56 > 0:10:57"You're not seeing them."
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Can you tell me what's the contact arrangements at the moment,
0:11:02 > 0:11:04- or what's been happening? - Absolutely nothing.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07- There's nothing in place.- So at the moment, there's nothing happening?
0:11:07 > 0:11:10- No.- No. So this is, you know, hopefully, what we can do today.
0:11:10 > 0:11:11Yep.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15It's a really awkward history with Martin, because when I...
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Martin was actually, while he was seeing me,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19was actually seeing another woman, as well.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22No, no, no, don't do that. Come on.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25'I only found out when I was pregnant with Harry.'
0:11:25 > 0:11:27He had had a... I think it was a 12-year relationship with her.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31And a ten-year relationship with me, neither of us knew about each other.
0:11:31 > 0:11:32Can't you play football by yourself?
0:11:37 > 0:11:40Nicky and Martin's two sons are now five and eight.
0:11:42 > 0:11:43When you make children,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46you expect to stay together and live as a family,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48but that is just an ideal world -
0:11:48 > 0:11:49it's not real life.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53We have no relationship any more.
0:11:53 > 0:11:54We have no trust any more.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56When we do have communication,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59it's...very hostile.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04What sort of routine are you looking at, do you think?
0:12:04 > 0:12:07For me, it's just to see them sometimes on a Saturday or Sunday,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10if it would be possible, and have them back by seven.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12Would that be all right by you?
0:12:14 > 0:12:16- Obviously not.- Well, let's...
0:12:16 > 0:12:18Can I have a chance to think about it, Martin,
0:12:18 > 0:12:20before you jump down my throat?
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Can you stop with all the silly little things?
0:12:23 > 0:12:26So...during the day Saturday or Sunday?
0:12:26 > 0:12:27It'd have to be, like,
0:12:27 > 0:12:29always Sundays or Saturday afternoons, cos I always work.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Sundays are not going to be possible for my eldest son, Harry,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35cos he's doing his holy communion. It's his holy communion year.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37- What time is that till, if you don't mind me asking?- I don't know.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40- Could you find out, at least? - How can I find out, Martin?- So...
0:12:41 > 0:12:42Ask the church?
0:12:44 > 0:12:46So, Nichola, what do you think might work?
0:12:46 > 0:12:49A Saturday or Sunday's fine, but as I keep coming back to,
0:12:49 > 0:12:51it needs to be regular. It needs to be set.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54It needs to be... You know what I mean? Consistent.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Can I just say, now, why we're doing this,
0:12:57 > 0:12:58because if he's going to have them,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01I don't want them round his partner's house.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03I don't want them anywhere near this woman.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08When I told her I had a girlfriend, that's when everything stopped.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10Everything. It just stopped.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13Everything. That was... seeing the boys, everything.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Everything stopped and everything started becoming a problem.
0:13:27 > 0:13:28Right.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30Yeah, I mean, that... Within, you know...
0:13:30 > 0:13:33everything that happens in mediation is voluntary.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35It's about people doing, agreeing what they're going to do
0:13:35 > 0:13:37because they want to do it.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44- OTHER MEDIATOR:- Amidst all the emotion, the couples we deal with
0:13:44 > 0:13:47actually need to find a practical way forward.
0:13:47 > 0:13:52The challenge is to reach a compromise that both sides can bear.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55We've got the...
0:13:55 > 0:13:59FFH is former family home.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02- Yeah.- So, what's the net equity in that?
0:14:02 > 0:14:05725. It was valued six months ago.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12One of the biggest decisions Peter and Sue face is what to do with
0:14:12 > 0:14:15the house they shared for the last ten years.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17It makes up three quarters of their wealth,
0:14:17 > 0:14:21and Peter still lives here with two of their three sons,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23who are now in their 20s.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29Sue is living ten miles away with her new partner,
0:14:29 > 0:14:32Peter's former boss, Bernard.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Where would you have been if it hadn't been for me
0:14:37 > 0:14:40- looking after you?- Well, I wouldn't have had a clue.- No.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43- No. I needed someone to tell me...- Yeah.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47Or to point things out, explain things, cos I didn't know anything.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50Sue is a housewife.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53She's never had to deal with anything on finances.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56She hasn't got a clue what's going on.
0:14:56 > 0:15:01And I'm saying to her, "You've got to try to get a good deal."
0:15:01 > 0:15:04I'm not going to be able to look after Sue for that much longer.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05We are limited to a degree, yeah.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09Yeah. I'm 25 years older than Sue.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11On 2nd May, I'm going to be 80.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14Now that is bloody old!
0:15:14 > 0:15:16All the time, I keep going, "It's all right.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18"We don't have a problem."
0:15:18 > 0:15:20But you've got to face facts.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24What financial responsibility do you think you do have towards Sue?
0:15:24 > 0:15:26Who? Me? At present, none.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35My thoughts were, I suppose, that if enough money was raised,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38I would be able to buy a property that I could rent out
0:15:38 > 0:15:41to then, eventually, live in.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43- KAY:- I see, yeah.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46But I'd have a rental income from it.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49The problem we've got here is interrelated
0:15:49 > 0:15:54with what happens with me, the house and the two lads.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58I can't raise enough to pay her half of everything.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01If Sue is insistent on having the money, then, obviously,
0:16:01 > 0:16:02the house has to be sold.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Alex, my youngest, won't talk to me.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12Right, um...
0:16:15 > 0:16:20When I first left, the big issue was the family home.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23They said to me, "Well, you're not going to make us move."
0:16:23 > 0:16:26And obviously, at that point, that was the last thing I wanted to do,
0:16:26 > 0:16:28so I said, "No, no.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30"You can stay in the house.
0:16:30 > 0:16:31"I'm not going to make you move."
0:16:32 > 0:16:35But then, if we can't raise the money any other way,
0:16:35 > 0:16:37than that's the only other option.
0:16:39 > 0:16:44The only way her dream of having the 50% of all the assets will be
0:16:44 > 0:16:47the house would have to be sold, and I'm not having that.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51- I can't have that.- Where are we going with this, then?
0:16:54 > 0:16:55What can be done?
0:17:00 > 0:17:02Shall we look at the kind of routines
0:17:02 > 0:17:04that you would both perhaps like?
0:17:04 > 0:17:06How do you think the pick-up is going to take place?
0:17:06 > 0:17:09- I don't want him at the property any more.- That's fine.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11We moved house to get away from, like,
0:17:11 > 0:17:12whatever was going on.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15Give the boys a fresh start and I did, and then, and...
0:17:15 > 0:17:17He managed to find out where I live. Know what I mean?
0:17:17 > 0:17:20- Was that because you wouldn't tell me where you was moving?- No.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Why would I tell you where? Cos you kept knocking at my door, crying.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25- No.- Listen, two weeks ago, he come knocking on our door,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27"Oh, I want to come back. I want to be part of the boys' life,"
0:17:27 > 0:17:30crying his little eyes out. He comes back, he spends time with the kids,
0:17:30 > 0:17:33then he disappears back to his new woman and leaves the boys in turmoil
0:17:33 > 0:17:35and I've had enough of it.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37So what you want me to do? Come to Camden, drop them by your door...
0:17:37 > 0:17:39You'd come to Camden anyway, wouldn't you?
0:17:39 > 0:17:41You're being selfish now. You're not thinking about
0:17:41 > 0:17:45- what's best for the boys. You're being selfish.- Listen to me, then.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48I wanted, if possible, a drop-off contact centre.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51A drop off and pick up. I would really, really want that.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53I think, moving forward, it would be better for the boys.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56So the pick up and drop off taking place somewhere totally neutral.
0:17:56 > 0:17:57Yeah, neutral ground.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00That's all, keeping us well away from each other.
0:18:00 > 0:18:01I don't want a contact centre,
0:18:01 > 0:18:03because I feel... It's a contact centre,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05I think it's unfair on the boys.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07Why? They're only there to pick up and drop off.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09- It's not unfair.- So how long does that go on for, then? How long?
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Hold on. We're listening to Judith at the moment.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14Is there anybody that, you know, is neutral?
0:18:14 > 0:18:15He's burnt his bridges with my family.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17I don't want to see them, really.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19- Is there anybody from... - I'll do a contact centre,
0:18:19 > 0:18:21cos she just gets what she wants, then, cos...
0:18:21 > 0:18:23- It's not about what I want, Martin. - It is, because...
0:18:23 > 0:18:26- You make another suggestion. - I'm talking. I'm talking.
0:18:26 > 0:18:27So that's to find out, isn't it?
0:18:27 > 0:18:29- Have you looked into it, then? - Can you not point at me, please?
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Can you not point? Don't invade my personal space, Martin.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36I think there needs to be boundaries established and lines that we don't
0:18:36 > 0:18:41- cross.- So this is an idea which, in principle, you both...
0:18:41 > 0:18:43Although you're reluctant to agree to it...
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I'll do it, because it's the only way I'll get to see them, so, yes.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48- I have to do it.- You would... - I just want to start things afresh.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51I want to start things afresh. I just want to see my boys.
0:18:51 > 0:18:52And that's it.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57I was agreeing with most of what she said,
0:18:57 > 0:18:59because it's pointless fighting someone
0:18:59 > 0:19:01when you know she's not going to be... She's relentless,
0:19:01 > 0:19:04and when she says that's what she wants, that's what she gets,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06so you just have to bear with it.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08As soon as he sorts the contact centre out,
0:19:08 > 0:19:11we can start the contact, so that's, like, the ball is in his court.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14So if he was to sort it tomorrow, he could have contact on Saturday,
0:19:14 > 0:19:18you know? So the sooner he gets his arse in gear,
0:19:18 > 0:19:20the sooner this can start.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26# I see that worried look upon your face
0:19:29 > 0:19:31# You've got your troubles
0:19:31 > 0:19:33# I've got mine...
0:19:36 > 0:19:41# She's found somebody else to take your place
0:19:44 > 0:19:47RADIO: # You've got your troubles I've got mine. #
0:19:47 > 0:19:48Good morning.
0:19:49 > 0:19:50How are you doing?
0:19:53 > 0:19:55I'm going in the containment room.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59- Wow.- She'll come and get you when she's ready.
0:19:59 > 0:20:00OK, thanks.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09People sometimes struggle with the mediation process.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13They've gone from loving each other to...
0:20:13 > 0:20:15Hate is a strong word,
0:20:15 > 0:20:18but having a huge dislike for each other.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21Yet they know they've got to resolve matters.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27For some people, communication is almost impossible.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34There was a demand six months ago from Victoria.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37"Do not contact me. Do not send me messages."
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Jason and Vicky split up four years ago.
0:20:42 > 0:20:43Just take a seat there.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47They've not spoken a word to each other for the last six months.
0:20:49 > 0:20:50Jason wanted to do mediation.
0:20:52 > 0:20:53I said, initially,
0:20:53 > 0:20:57"I'm quite happy to do it, but it won't work," because the thing is,
0:20:57 > 0:20:58if you are a high-conflict couple,
0:20:58 > 0:21:00as we've been referred to in the past,
0:21:00 > 0:21:02it doesn't matter if someone else is there.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05If you're...That's how you are.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12They are trying to co-parent their six-year-old daughter.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14But they're struggling to agree on anything,
0:21:14 > 0:21:17from holiday plans to where she'll spend the weekend.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28Vicky has only agreed to mediate with Jason
0:21:28 > 0:21:30if they remain in separate rooms.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34Irene will shuttle backwards and forwards,
0:21:34 > 0:21:36allowing them 15 minutes each at a time.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43So what are the specifics that you'd like to talk to Vicky about?
0:21:43 > 0:21:46There are lots of things that I could talk about,
0:21:46 > 0:21:47101 things that we could deal with.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49We'd never get through them all.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52But I think taking a very big step backwards,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54- and looking at the bigger picture.- Yeah.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Victoria won't allow me to communicate to her in any form.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02Really, until that's resolved,
0:22:02 > 0:22:06I don't think any of these issues are going to be, um, improved upon.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11It was not one dramatic event.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15The communication side had broke down with us.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18It spiralled, I guess. It had ups and downs, but, gradually,
0:22:18 > 0:22:22it was going downhill to the point that Victoria decided she'd...
0:22:23 > 0:22:25..point blank refuse to talk to me -
0:22:25 > 0:22:27had some e-mails, "Do not contact me."
0:22:28 > 0:22:30Since she and Jason separated,
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Vicky has married another man,
0:22:33 > 0:22:35and he is acting as their go-between.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39It's not solving anything.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41I'm quite a communicative person,
0:22:41 > 0:22:45but from my perspective, the other side was a brick wall.
0:22:50 > 0:22:54We're here, basically, to manage the upbringing of our child
0:22:54 > 0:22:57and if you imagine a company with two directors,
0:22:57 > 0:22:59and they don't talk to each other,
0:22:59 > 0:23:01well, the company is going to go down
0:23:01 > 0:23:03and there's going to be detriment to our child in some way.
0:23:03 > 0:23:04And then...
0:23:04 > 0:23:06- PHONE PLAYS TUNE - Oh, that's my timer.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09- OK, that's good.- So that I remember not to let us talk for ever.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11I'll keep you here all the time, otherwise.
0:23:11 > 0:23:16So I'm just going to tap that off and I am going to see Vicky now.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18I hope it's not too boring in here for you.
0:23:18 > 0:23:19- No, I'll doodle.- All right.
0:23:19 > 0:23:20- Thanks very much.- OK.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38What are the specific things that you would like to be able to address
0:23:38 > 0:23:41with Jason whilst you're here?
0:23:41 > 0:23:42I want the passport back.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47We don't have any Saturdays with her at all.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49And I don't think that's reasonable.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52That's what I want, basically.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55Or to be discussed, at least.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01Well, we don't communicate at all and I...
0:24:01 > 0:24:04I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't see that improving.
0:24:04 > 0:24:05Do you want it to?
0:24:09 > 0:24:10I would have said yes.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14Six months ago, I would have said yes, but it's been so horrendous,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16I just... I can't see a way forward
0:24:16 > 0:24:19and being able to just go, "Right, that happened."
0:24:21 > 0:24:22Communication is a big...
0:24:22 > 0:24:24Yeah, is a big part of things.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27What I often say to people that sit in these chairs,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30if you could get your communication right,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33- you probably wouldn't need to be here.- No, we wouldn't. We wouldn't.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37We did really love each other.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42We didn't have anything in common, but we just really loved each other.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48I think we were together for a couple of years.
0:24:48 > 0:24:49We weren't getting on.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52He was driving me nuts and it just really got unbearable
0:24:52 > 0:24:54and we split up and we were both really upset.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56And then I really missed him. It was literally a month,
0:24:56 > 0:24:59we said we were going to give each other a couple of months
0:24:59 > 0:25:01and I missed him so much and we got back together
0:25:01 > 0:25:04and literally a month later, pregnant with her.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09When their daughter Rosalie was two,
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Jason and Vicky separated again -
0:25:11 > 0:25:13this time, permanently.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18She now lives part of every week with her mum and part with her dad,
0:25:18 > 0:25:22transported backwards and forwards by Vicky's husband.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25When Rosie came along,
0:25:25 > 0:25:28Jason just wanted me to do everything his way
0:25:28 > 0:25:31and I wanted to do it my way. That's when it really...
0:25:31 > 0:25:32We started to argue.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37But I still feel sad about it, four years on.
0:25:37 > 0:25:38I still feel sad.
0:25:43 > 0:25:47I want you to think about what are your best hopes for Rosalie.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49I'm spelling it wrong, am I?
0:25:49 > 0:25:51- It's OK.- Rosa...
0:25:51 > 0:25:53- Like that?- Yeah.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55- Sorry, you're getting...emotional. - It's all right.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58- I just really find it very upsetting.- Oh, bless you.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04- Sorry, I'll be all right. - It's all right. Don't worry.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07- It's just, this is not what I wanted.- I know.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13Just give it a minute. Just give it a minute.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20It's just little things, like, you know,
0:26:20 > 0:26:22if she does something and I think,
0:26:22 > 0:26:23"Oh, I'd love to just send him a picture,"
0:26:23 > 0:26:26- or I'd love to ring him up like I used to, and just go...- Yeah, yeah.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29You know, she did this, or she did that.
0:26:29 > 0:26:31I wanted us to share everything, but...
0:26:34 > 0:26:37And your reality, in respect of communication,
0:26:37 > 0:26:40and in respect of your co-parenting relationship is,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43you don't ever have to be friends.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45- No.- But you will always be parents.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47- I wanted... I did want us to be friends.- OK.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49I thought we could be friends.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52But maybe that's another step down the line.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56First of all, this is about getting your co-parenting relationship
0:26:56 > 0:26:59- to a level that is OK... - At the minute...
0:26:59 > 0:27:01- ..for everybody. - ..we can't co-parent.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08We've got this situation where you don't communicate at all.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13So we now need to start very slowly building that back.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16Sounds to me roughly like you're asking the wrong person,
0:27:16 > 0:27:18because I'm not refusing to communicate.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25I'm not the problem with the communication.
0:27:26 > 0:27:30The reason I stopped it is the way he's treated me.
0:27:41 > 0:27:42Dear Sue,
0:27:42 > 0:27:45although I generally believe that your demands are totally unfair,
0:27:45 > 0:27:48I have received agreement in principle from a major lender.
0:27:49 > 0:27:51Since their last mediation three weeks ago,
0:27:51 > 0:27:54Peter has e-mailed Sue with a cash offer.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59He believes he can give her the 50% she's asking for
0:27:59 > 0:28:02without having to sell the family home.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04I'm trembling here as I'm talking about it, actually.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09I'm giving more than I think I could honestly think I can afford.
0:28:10 > 0:28:15To finance his offer, Peter would have to borrow £200,000.
0:28:17 > 0:28:18- Wotcher.- Morning.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24So far, Sue hasn't said whether she'll agree to his terms.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29If there are any demands which I'm not happy with,
0:28:29 > 0:28:31I will just walk out.
0:28:32 > 0:28:37Against my judgment, I would agree to a 50-50 split, as per my offer.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40I think that's incredibly generous.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43And therefore I feel that we could go ahead on that basis.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Thank you for starting, Peter.
0:28:47 > 0:28:48Sue?
0:28:54 > 0:28:57One of the queries, which I know you are not going to like,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00is the fact that the date, the 31st January...
0:29:04 > 0:29:10All calculations have been based on spitting our assets 50-50
0:29:10 > 0:29:13at 31st January. That's ten months ago.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17- Yeah.- Today, when we were at the estate agents,
0:29:17 > 0:29:21they're all saying that it's gone up between 7-10% this year.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23That could be... What?
0:29:25 > 0:29:29About £70,000, £80,000 difference.
0:29:30 > 0:29:31But in what he says here,
0:29:31 > 0:29:37"I am NOT prepared to negotiate on 31st January for the valuations."
0:29:37 > 0:29:39Well, he's got no right to say that.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45The valuation that you've got on the house is quite low
0:29:45 > 0:29:48- to what it's valued at now. - Yeah, we're not talking about now.
0:29:48 > 0:29:49You left 31st January.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53You chose to leave our marriage on 31st January.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56Yeah. Is that correct, that, the date I leave,
0:29:56 > 0:30:00- is that when everything should be... sorted?- Not necessarily.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03That's a matter of negotiation between you.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05Perhaps, obviously, I'm...
0:30:05 > 0:30:08The plan is that I'm buying somewhere, so everything...
0:30:08 > 0:30:10The longer things are going on, everything is going up.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12And I am going to have to... You know,
0:30:12 > 0:30:14something I could have bought for £300,000
0:30:14 > 0:30:16is now going to cost me £350,000.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19If you can't agree to that date, then we've got nowhere to go.
0:30:21 > 0:30:22Well, the increase..
0:30:23 > 0:30:26Three estate agents, three estate agents.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28And they've gone up at least 5%.
0:30:28 > 0:30:29All right. So, Peter...
0:30:29 > 0:30:32I'm just about to go. I can't face this. This is not going to happen.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34If we can't agree on that, we've got nowhere to go.
0:30:34 > 0:30:36So, Peter,
0:30:36 > 0:30:41would you like to have five minutes one-to-one with me?
0:30:41 > 0:30:43- I'm happy to do that.- Sue,
0:30:43 > 0:30:46could I ask you to pop down to the waiting room, please?
0:30:47 > 0:30:49Thanks.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56If she can't make a decision for herself,
0:30:56 > 0:30:57then we're not going anywhere.
0:30:59 > 0:31:00Unfortunately, the person who's making
0:31:00 > 0:31:03these bloody decisions is not here.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05Well, this is an exciting one, isn't it?
0:31:07 > 0:31:10We met on 23rd December.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15He gave me a kiss and that was it.
0:31:15 > 0:31:16Just picked up one of those.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20But this wasn't the first kiss that Bernard and Sue had shared.
0:31:24 > 0:31:2935 years ago, Sue was an office junior at a firm of accountants.
0:31:30 > 0:31:35The same accountancy firm that was run by Peter and Bernard.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38I started at the company when I was 16 as a filing clerk
0:31:38 > 0:31:43- and then Bernard was one of the partners.- I met Sue there and we..
0:31:43 > 0:31:45At that time, she was living with him.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Sue was Bernard's girlfriend.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52They lived together for two years.
0:31:54 > 0:31:59I was living with a lovely lady of 20, 21.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01And there I was at 45.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09I knew at that age I wanted children.
0:32:09 > 0:32:10Bernard had three children.
0:32:12 > 0:32:13She wanted to have a family.
0:32:13 > 0:32:15I'd got three kids. I'd had the chop.
0:32:15 > 0:32:16THEY LAUGH
0:32:16 > 0:32:18There was no way I wanted more kids.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23I suppose I have to admit that I broke their relationship up
0:32:23 > 0:32:25by having a relationship with Sue.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29I was in bits.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31Oh, you know, it was... It was awful.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37And then you meet someone again that likes you for you.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40It was like the years just disappeared.
0:32:42 > 0:32:43You are being selfish,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45but you're doing what you think is best for you.
0:32:47 > 0:32:49The bottom line of all this, Sue, is,
0:32:49 > 0:32:53whether you are prepared to take £420,000.
0:32:53 > 0:32:55Forget how it's calculated.
0:32:55 > 0:32:56I wasn't joking in my proposal.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59I'm serious. This is as far as I can go.
0:33:00 > 0:33:01And...
0:33:06 > 0:33:08I really don't know what to say, actually.
0:33:11 > 0:33:15We've heard what Peter has had to say about affordability.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19- Yeah.- I know you'll want to go away and think about it,
0:33:19 > 0:33:24but having heard Peter's reasoning
0:33:24 > 0:33:27for asking for this settlement...
0:33:28 > 0:33:30Where are you with that?
0:33:31 > 0:33:32Yeah, I mean...
0:33:33 > 0:33:34Yes, it sounds...
0:33:36 > 0:33:38..close, yeah. Yeah.
0:33:38 > 0:33:40It does sound reasonably fair.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44And fairness is a difficult word.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48Well, actually, we have to be rather practical about it, as well.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53So, is that going to give you what you need?
0:33:57 > 0:33:58I think so.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02I have to... I mean, obviously I have to sort some figures out,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05But I think, yeah, I think...
0:34:05 > 0:34:06I think it probably would.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14I'd like to think Sue's made this decision on her own,
0:34:14 > 0:34:17and she's now going to go back to Bernard
0:34:17 > 0:34:19and tell him that we've agreed this.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22Do you feel like you have got an agreement?
0:34:23 > 0:34:25Not completely, but I think we're getting there.
0:34:25 > 0:34:28But I don't think we've got an agreement as such at the moment.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30I've got to... go and think it through
0:34:30 > 0:34:36and mull things over and, yeah, just make a decision.
0:34:36 > 0:34:42# They say that breaking up is hard to do
0:34:42 > 0:34:43# Now I know
0:34:43 > 0:34:46# I know that it's true
0:34:46 > 0:34:49# Don't say this is the end
0:34:49 > 0:34:53# Instead of breaking up I wish that we will make it up again. #
0:35:13 > 0:35:16I want him to stop sending me links to websites
0:35:16 > 0:35:20of how to clean my daughter's teeth and stuff like that.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25Here he's saying, "She needs to drink more water.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28"Infection is fuelled by sugar, and her passion for processed carbs,
0:35:28 > 0:35:29"pasta, bread, cake..."
0:35:31 > 0:35:33Oh, here we go. These are brilliant.
0:35:33 > 0:35:35"Perfectparenting.com.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37"You can't love a child too much."
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Gosh, it just goes on and on and on.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42I... I literally couldn't ignore it.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44I'd be like that on the phone.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47How many links do you send?
0:35:48 > 0:35:50Maybe one a week.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54But they were instant messages, so, you know, like I said,
0:35:54 > 0:35:56she's often said to me, "Stop sending them."
0:35:56 > 0:35:57I said, "OK, just block my number.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59"But they are related to my daughter.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02"And if... If you are still feeding her sweets
0:36:02 > 0:36:05"or if you are still giving her shoes that are damaging her toes,
0:36:05 > 0:36:06"I'm going to send the links,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09because she comes home with packets of sweets."
0:36:09 > 0:36:11You know, there's still an issue for me.
0:36:13 > 0:36:17Originally, it was good to be with someone that was confident
0:36:17 > 0:36:18and got on with things,
0:36:18 > 0:36:22but we had differences bringing Rosie up from day one.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25As a father, you want to play a part.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29My father left when I was two,
0:36:29 > 0:36:32and it's almost happened exactly the same,
0:36:32 > 0:36:34for different reasons, with my daughter.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37It was the last thing I could have ever, ever wanted.
0:36:37 > 0:36:38The worst thing in the whole world.
0:36:40 > 0:36:44I wouldn't say my upbringing was very easy on me.
0:36:44 > 0:36:48I've really vowed that it's not going to happen to my daughter.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51She's going to benefit from my input.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55Why will you not look at links?
0:36:56 > 0:36:57They're about our daughter.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02Vicky is asking, "If we're going to communicate again,
0:37:02 > 0:37:04"I don't want to be in a position
0:37:04 > 0:37:08"where I feel as though I'm not respected.
0:37:08 > 0:37:13"I want us to have a new level of communication where I feel OK
0:37:13 > 0:37:14"and I feel comfortable."
0:37:14 > 0:37:16She is respected to a level.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19I've always told her that she's a great mother,
0:37:19 > 0:37:23but there's things, you know, I don't respect about her life.
0:37:23 > 0:37:24He does not respect me.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27That is an out-and-out lie.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30Well, he's said he respects you to a level.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33Yeah, that level between nought and ten would be...
0:37:33 > 0:37:34probably 0.5.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40What you see as respect and what he sees as respect
0:37:40 > 0:37:42- are two different things.- Yes.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45So in his head, Jason is respecting you,
0:37:45 > 0:37:49but how you perceive that, that is not respectful.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54I don't feel like we're getting anywhere.
0:37:54 > 0:37:56I feel like we've got absolutely nowhere.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59I know it's difficult because we're in a different rooms, but...
0:37:59 > 0:38:02we're just not on the same wavelength.
0:38:05 > 0:38:07I just think a bit like, you know, the fact that someone...
0:38:07 > 0:38:10I know this is not really for you to...
0:38:10 > 0:38:12But the fact that someone who was supposed to have loved you
0:38:12 > 0:38:16and you had a child with can make you feel like this...
0:38:16 > 0:38:19you know, and not even want to be in the same room as them.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23You know, how do you let that person back into your life?
0:38:40 > 0:38:42Hello there. Hello. Have a seat.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Yeah.
0:38:45 > 0:38:46Won't be a minute.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55It's now two months since Nicky and Martin's first mediation meeting,
0:38:55 > 0:38:58and Martin has only seen their sons once.
0:38:58 > 0:38:59Would you like to come in?
0:39:01 > 0:39:03The couple still haven't managed to agree
0:39:03 > 0:39:06where the handover should take place.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10I let him, in good faith, take the boys for a barbecue,
0:39:10 > 0:39:13thinking contact would start up or resume again,
0:39:13 > 0:39:15but he's had no contact since the barbecue.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18- Sorry, did I...- I'm talking.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21I said, "I can let you have the boys on this occasion,
0:39:21 > 0:39:24"because it's a family occasion and the boys get to see their family.
0:39:24 > 0:39:25"But going forward, Martin,
0:39:25 > 0:39:27"we have to stick to what we agreed in mediation."
0:39:27 > 0:39:29She's told me a contact centre.
0:39:29 > 0:39:31When I went there, there's nowhere to take my boys.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34I'm not going to go round walking the streets with two little boys
0:39:34 > 0:39:37for two hours doing nothing, cos there is nothing round there.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43This is the drop-off centre Nicky chose.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46It's a church, and it's just where I can drop off my two little boys.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50The contact centre Nicky has suggested
0:39:50 > 0:39:54is 45 minutes away from where she and the boys live.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56It's something you have to pay for, it seems.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Everything is money, money, money.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00It's £65.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02But that's just, like, to sign up for it.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05Then it's £15 every time you drop off your child.
0:40:05 > 0:40:09I think it works out to £2,300 for a year,
0:40:09 > 0:40:11which is absolutely ridiculous.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16Where she lives, she's got a block where I could buzz a gate,
0:40:16 > 0:40:19I can drop the kids off, I can watch them go up the stairs,
0:40:19 > 0:40:23go into the door, actually from not even entering the estate.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25And she won't even let me do that,
0:40:25 > 0:40:27because she says she doesn't want me anywhere near there.
0:40:27 > 0:40:29And I can't understand.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31The only reason, I think, is just pure bitterness,
0:40:31 > 0:40:32and that's why she's doing it.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37Where Nicky lives, there's swimming pools, climbing places to go to.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39There's a lot of restaurants I can take them to.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42There's more for me to do in a little short area.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44But if I'm further out, like Nicky's wanting me to do,
0:40:44 > 0:40:46- at this other contact centre... - It's not Nicky.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49There's no contact centres in Camden, so it's going to be...
0:40:49 > 0:40:53Either way we go, it's going to be a little bit of travelling involved.
0:40:53 > 0:40:55I need a break. I can't really sit here too much, seriously.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59- Martin, before you go...- I find it hard.- Right.- I find it really hard.
0:40:59 > 0:41:00Fucking hell.
0:41:01 > 0:41:03Ahh.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09The reason why we moved, really,
0:41:09 > 0:41:11is just to break the contact with Martin, because...
0:41:13 > 0:41:15..we seem to be going round in circles.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17The hurt...just didn't stop.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23I tried to disappear, but it didn't really work.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29I need to move on and be happy in myself
0:41:29 > 0:41:31and be a better mother to my children.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36I would like the boys to have Mummy and Daddy together.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38That's why I'm so forgiving when he does knock at the door.
0:41:38 > 0:41:39But that's got to stop now.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43And the less we have to do with each other,
0:41:43 > 0:41:45I think the healthier it'll be for the kids.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48Nicky is really a control person.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51No, you are, Nick. Don't... Don't say you're not.
0:41:51 > 0:41:53And if things ain't her way, then...
0:41:53 > 0:41:55This isn't about me. This is about the kids.
0:41:55 > 0:41:57It's about the boys. This is what I'm trying to say.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59Oh, Martin, I've given you everything you needed.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02All you needed to do is go to the contact centre, Martin,
0:42:02 > 0:42:03but you totally disagreed.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17Vicky and Jason are nearing the end of their session.
0:42:20 > 0:42:21After two hours,
0:42:21 > 0:42:25Irene is still trying to find something on which they can agree.
0:42:28 > 0:42:32In respect of the change to the Saturday nights
0:42:32 > 0:42:34which she is asking for,
0:42:34 > 0:42:37what Vicki is suggesting is that you have her...
0:42:39 > 0:42:42..every other Thursday to Saturday,
0:42:42 > 0:42:47and she is saying that one of the reasons is because she would like
0:42:47 > 0:42:50to have a Saturday with Rosalie.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52- She works Saturday, though.- And...
0:42:54 > 0:42:56I'm just telling you what she says. She would like...
0:42:56 > 0:42:58She's worked every Saturday for the last six years.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01That's why I've had my daughter and gave up my work on Saturdays.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05- OK.- If she could explain why I've taken every Saturday off
0:43:05 > 0:43:09for six years, why she suddenly wants to have a Saturday with her...
0:43:10 > 0:43:12No, it's just convenient.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15As far as I'm concerned, it's convenient, to suit her.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17I don't have to work on a Saturday.
0:43:17 > 0:43:19I'm not being rude, but that's none of his business.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21If I say I want to have her on a Saturday,
0:43:21 > 0:43:23it's because I want to have her on a Saturday.
0:43:23 > 0:43:25This is the problem, you see.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27It's wanting to know everything and be...
0:43:27 > 0:43:31But is there anything that you want me to say in response to that?
0:43:32 > 0:43:34Yeah. But I'm not going to say it!
0:43:34 > 0:43:36SHE LAUGHS
0:43:36 > 0:43:38"Is it because it is more convenient?"
0:43:38 > 0:43:40What does that mean?
0:43:40 > 0:43:42- Convenient in what respect? - For your life.- No.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45But that's... I tell you what, I am literally on the verge of going,
0:43:45 > 0:43:48- "I'm done."- We are done, cos I've got to go.- No, I mean, I'm done.
0:43:48 > 0:43:50I'm not doing this again.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53Because I think it is obvious we're not getting anywhere.
0:43:53 > 0:43:55We've been here for two hours.
0:43:55 > 0:43:57We're nowhere.
0:43:57 > 0:43:58We are nowhere.
0:43:58 > 0:44:00I have to draw the line.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03I'm not letting that back into my life.
0:44:03 > 0:44:04No.
0:44:05 > 0:44:06OK.
0:44:11 > 0:44:14Vicky has drawn a line under...
0:44:14 > 0:44:16Yeah, I'm not surprised.
0:44:16 > 0:44:17Yeah.
0:44:17 > 0:44:22And all I can do is wish you well and hope that, you know,
0:44:22 > 0:44:24the right outcomes happen.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29Either of you could move from your current positions
0:44:29 > 0:44:32and call an end to this. Either of you could do that.
0:44:32 > 0:44:33Yeah.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43MUSIC: Aquarius (Let The Sunshine In) by The Fifth Dimension
0:45:02 > 0:45:06Sue and Peter have now been in mediation for three months.
0:45:08 > 0:45:09Since their last meeting,
0:45:09 > 0:45:13Sue has given Peter's cash offer further consideration.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20Unfortunately, when I get in those meetings I just go to pieces.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24I suppose I just think that what everyone else is saying
0:45:24 > 0:45:29seems reasonable and I just agree to things or think it's right,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32and then, obviously, I discuss it with someone else
0:45:32 > 0:45:34who's looking at it from a different point of view -
0:45:34 > 0:45:36ie Bernard, obviously -
0:45:36 > 0:45:39and he sees things obviously in a completely different way.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43- Morning.- Morning.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49- You have trouble parking?- No.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51I came here earlier, had a coffee.
0:45:51 > 0:45:52Oh.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57In a financial dispute,
0:45:57 > 0:46:00our aim is a written agreement
0:46:00 > 0:46:03that's ready to be checked by both sides' solicitors,
0:46:03 > 0:46:05and then made legally binding.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09If we don't get there,
0:46:09 > 0:46:13the couple can quickly find themselves in a courtroom battle
0:46:13 > 0:46:17with their costs rocketing into tens of thousands of pounds.
0:46:24 > 0:46:28Divorce law obliges Peter to disclose his finances
0:46:28 > 0:46:30for the 11 months since Sue left him.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36But he's refusing to do this until Sue agrees a deal.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42She knew what the entire assets of the marriage were on 31st January,
0:46:42 > 0:46:45when she left. And I did that a week after we split.
0:46:47 > 0:46:51As far as I'm concerned, everything else is irrelevant now.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58I'm prepared to give full disclosure if we've got full agreement.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02How can we do a full agreement without...?
0:47:02 > 0:47:04We had an agreement after the last meeting.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06- You walked away from it. - That wasn't...- Yeah.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08You said you think you can.
0:47:08 > 0:47:09- You said.- Yeah.
0:47:09 > 0:47:13So, does it seems that
0:47:13 > 0:47:17this proposal that is on the table
0:47:17 > 0:47:23is still enough to achieve what you need to achieve in the future?
0:47:23 > 0:47:25I still... I know I keep going on about it,
0:47:25 > 0:47:27but it's just the full disclosure thing.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29I think, without that...
0:47:29 > 0:47:31Can I say something first, please?
0:47:31 > 0:47:34Every time I seem to get some sort of agreement with Sue
0:47:34 > 0:47:36about anything, it changes the next time.
0:47:36 > 0:47:40This has happened again. I understand why it's happening,
0:47:40 > 0:47:42because Sue goes and talks to Bernard.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44But this can't keep happening, because there's no point.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48We can't mediate when the person who is making the decisions is not here.
0:47:48 > 0:47:52Sue, in the interest of making progress while we are here today...
0:47:53 > 0:47:57..how would you feel about us taking a break,
0:47:57 > 0:48:00having a conversation with Bernard,
0:48:00 > 0:48:05and then we'll reconvene to see whether we can go forward?
0:48:06 > 0:48:10Or whether we actually can't.
0:48:31 > 0:48:35Nicky and Martin have now been in mediation for four months.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41Today they are returning for a third meeting.
0:48:43 > 0:48:45Very brave man. Very silly man.
0:48:45 > 0:48:47Am I? What are you smiling at with your mates?
0:48:47 > 0:48:49Absolutely lovely.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51- I'm not smiling. - This'll be very quick,
0:48:51 > 0:48:54cos this ain't going any further with her.
0:48:54 > 0:48:58No further now. She found out I was on a dating website.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01And that was it, just went absolutely loopy.
0:49:02 > 0:49:03So where do you want to start?
0:49:05 > 0:49:07Just want to see my kids, that's all I want.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11If that's all he wanted, we wouldn't be at the situation we are now.
0:49:11 > 0:49:16Sometimes things blow up and, you know, they obliterate, like,
0:49:16 > 0:49:19- normal life.- I just want to see my kids and that's all I want to do.
0:49:19 > 0:49:21This woman is hellbent on stopping me.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24- And always has been. - Let's just stop...
0:49:24 > 0:49:27Let's just stop at "you want to see your kids".
0:49:27 > 0:49:29- That's all I want.- Because if you're kind of throwing things back
0:49:29 > 0:49:32at each other, it's going to be horrible for you.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35- That's fair enough.- And that you had a plan that looked like it was going
0:49:35 > 0:49:37to work. Did you have contact, Martin?
0:49:37 > 0:49:38It's been fine. I been picking them up,
0:49:38 > 0:49:41I've been dropping them off by her place.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47The contact centre agreement, as much as I'd have liked that to work,
0:49:47 > 0:49:49cos I think it would have been best all round,
0:49:49 > 0:49:51where it was, the location it was in,
0:49:51 > 0:49:53at the time of night we'd be getting there, it was just,
0:49:53 > 0:49:56it was all too much. I didn't feel safe.
0:49:56 > 0:49:57Harry didn't feel safe.
0:49:57 > 0:50:00I weren't willing to go back to that contact centre.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05Nicky decided to give up her idea of a contact centre.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11Instead, she and Martin decided that the handover should take place
0:50:11 > 0:50:13outside Nicky's flat.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16The reason we are talking simply now is only dependent on one reason
0:50:16 > 0:50:18and that is because he's split up with his partner again.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21When his partner is not in the picture, we can correspond,
0:50:21 > 0:50:23we can be civil to each other, and we can, like, co-parent.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27It's hard not to give him another chance,
0:50:27 > 0:50:30because it's what the boys want so desperately.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34I don't know. I don't know how this is going to play out.
0:50:36 > 0:50:40So, there's something here, obviously, going on
0:50:40 > 0:50:43which I'm not aware of, and I don't know if it's...
0:50:43 > 0:50:46Since our last mediation session, lots of things have happened.
0:50:46 > 0:50:49He's put my safety at risk, he's put my health at risk,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52and I'm not prepared to have this man in my life any more.
0:50:52 > 0:50:54- OK.- I don't want to be in your life.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Really? Is that why you break into my house,
0:50:56 > 0:50:58climb through my bathroom window when the kids are asleep?
0:50:58 > 0:51:01Don't want to be in my life? Pestering me for sex all the time?
0:51:01 > 0:51:03Don't want to be in my life? While you are trailing the internet
0:51:03 > 0:51:06for women? You are disgusting, Martin.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08I had to go for a full health check because of you.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11- Right, I haven't even slept with anyone.- You've slept with me.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15- What...- He crossed a line again. He crossed a line again.
0:51:15 > 0:51:20What's happened is that you've had some intimacy, yeah?
0:51:22 > 0:51:26You obviously have a relationship that's not quite over.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28HE GUFFAWS
0:51:28 > 0:51:30No, seriously. Seriously.
0:51:30 > 0:51:32In her mind, no.
0:51:32 > 0:51:33Something has happened.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36Whatever's happened has happened. I just want it to go back as it was,
0:51:36 > 0:51:39- where I will pick up the boys from somewhere.- All right.
0:51:39 > 0:51:41- Sorry, what was that?- Nicky, please don't interrupt...- No, no.
0:51:41 > 0:51:44- Please can you just say what you said?- No, she said not to interrupt.
0:51:44 > 0:51:47- No, I don't... What I want... - No, Judith, can you ask...
0:51:47 > 0:51:49She either tells me what she was going to say,
0:51:49 > 0:51:51- otherwise I will walk out of this room now.- No, I want...
0:51:51 > 0:51:54- What did you say, Nick? - No.- I'll go.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57If she's going to sit there and make snidey remarks at me
0:51:57 > 0:51:59and don't want to speak, we're done.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26Sue has been on the phone to Bernard for nearly ten minutes.
0:52:29 > 0:52:32I'm not diverging all this information to Bernard,
0:52:32 > 0:52:35because Bernard will just go through it all and start attacking me again.
0:52:37 > 0:52:40He'll say to her that I'm not providing information
0:52:40 > 0:52:44because I've got something to hide or my income is so high.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48Do you think she believes that you're being deceitful about this
0:52:48 > 0:52:49in some way?
0:52:51 > 0:52:52Um...
0:52:54 > 0:52:55No.
0:52:58 > 0:52:59No. I don't think so.
0:53:00 > 0:53:01Why do you say that?
0:53:02 > 0:53:04Well, despite everything, she knows me.
0:53:05 > 0:53:06She knows me.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18Without full disclosure, I'm not going to... I can't.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20I won't go any further.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23Bernard considers that's the way it should be.
0:53:23 > 0:53:25- OK.- I need to...
0:53:25 > 0:53:27Right, shall we go?
0:53:30 > 0:53:33Can I just - before we completely finish -
0:53:33 > 0:53:38- have a farewell five minutes with you?- Mm-hm.
0:53:38 > 0:53:41When this sort of things happen,
0:53:41 > 0:53:46I really encourage clients to go and see a lawyer,
0:53:46 > 0:53:52get your advice, and see how far we are away
0:53:52 > 0:53:58from what we might realistically achieve as a settlement?
0:53:58 > 0:54:02If there's anything left here
0:54:02 > 0:54:06that we can do to keep you two
0:54:06 > 0:54:07out of court...
0:54:09 > 0:54:11..why wouldn't we want to try and do that together?
0:54:15 > 0:54:16So, thank you very much.
0:54:16 > 0:54:20- Thank you.- I must run. I'm afraid I've got to be somewhere.- Yes.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23- Thank you again, Kay. You've been a great help. Cheerio.- Bye-bye.- Bye.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31The thing I have learnt over the years is that...
0:54:31 > 0:54:33it's never over until it's over.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39Once people embark on mediation,
0:54:39 > 0:54:42they do start to see things differently.
0:54:42 > 0:54:47So, no matter how tricky it all gets, there's always hope.
0:54:48 > 0:54:49Come on, then, Harry.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52In the five months after he walked out of mediation,
0:54:52 > 0:54:55Martin only saw the children once.
0:54:55 > 0:54:59I've got two lovely kids and we've just got to bring them up properly.
0:54:59 > 0:55:01Which she does do. She's a good mother.
0:55:01 > 0:55:03Don't need to not have contact with her,
0:55:03 > 0:55:06not get involved with her personally. Wasn't a great idea.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09He and Nicky are considering their next steps.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14You don't want everything to just go to pieces and end up with nothing.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17Just hope, and just see how we get on from there.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Vicky decided that further mediation
0:55:21 > 0:55:24wouldn't help her end the dispute with Jason.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26It's like a roundabout going round and round,
0:55:26 > 0:55:28or something rolling down a hill.
0:55:28 > 0:55:30I'd really like to get off now.
0:55:30 > 0:55:31I'd really like to get off.
0:55:31 > 0:55:33But you can't.
0:55:33 > 0:55:34Why not?
0:55:36 > 0:55:39Because...you can't just get off on your own.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42Could you just put a stop to it?
0:55:42 > 0:55:44I don't know how. I don't know how.
0:55:44 > 0:55:49Vicky asked a court to decide where Rosalie should spend her Saturdays.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54She and Jason have since begun to speak to each other again.
0:55:56 > 0:55:58Do come on up.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01Six weeks after their mediation broke down,
0:56:01 > 0:56:04Peter and Sue returned for one more meeting.
0:56:04 > 0:56:08As I understand it, you have got an agreement.
0:56:08 > 0:56:09Have we?
0:56:10 > 0:56:12- Yeah.- OK, good.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22You do feel like a weight's off your shoulders.
0:56:22 > 0:56:23It was just getting silly.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26It was upsetting, you know, so many people,
0:56:26 > 0:56:29and you get to the point where you think it'll just get nastier.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32It's got to be finished at some point.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35And so, you know, that's your decision made.
0:56:35 > 0:56:38I would have said she's got about 55% of everything.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41It may slightly be in Peter's favour, I don't know.
0:56:42 > 0:56:44Whatever it is, it is what it is.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47But I've had to concede to some extent.
0:56:51 > 0:56:54I wasn't expecting at my age
0:56:54 > 0:56:57to be picking up a very substantial mortgage,
0:56:57 > 0:57:00but the alternatives were awful.
0:57:00 > 0:57:01Having to move house,
0:57:01 > 0:57:04upsetting the children was not really an option for me.
0:57:06 > 0:57:08If we were going to go through the legal process,
0:57:08 > 0:57:11then we were both probably going to lose 30, 40, 50,000.
0:57:11 > 0:57:13And it would be madness.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16So we've got, hopefully, to the right deal now.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21Sue is still planning to use the money from the settlement
0:57:21 > 0:57:22to buy a property.
0:57:22 > 0:57:27But for the foreseeable future, she'll be living with Bernard.
0:57:27 > 0:57:30We can't say that in 30 years' time we're still going to be together,
0:57:30 > 0:57:31which is hard.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33But, no, you just enjoy what you've got
0:57:33 > 0:57:36and hope it goes on as long as it possibly can,
0:57:36 > 0:57:37so that's all you can do.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41I don't want to live on my own.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45Not sure I'm into the internet dating scene,
0:57:45 > 0:57:47but inevitably that might loom.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51I suppose you can get lucky.
0:57:52 > 0:57:53You hope, you know.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00I know for a fact he took everything.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03- That's not true.- I have got nothing that belongs to him in the house.
0:58:03 > 0:58:06- And I know for a fact...- That's your word against mine, isn't it?
0:58:06 > 0:58:08And only one of us is telling the truth, so...
0:58:08 > 0:58:11So, when we were happily married, what's yours is mine,
0:58:11 > 0:58:14and what's mine was yours, but now we are unhappily married,
0:58:14 > 0:58:16it's gone to what's yours is yours and what's mine is...
0:58:16 > 0:58:18- Not totally.- Yeah.
0:58:18 > 0:58:21We were arguing. We couldn't stand the sight of each other, both ways.
0:58:21 > 0:58:22But now I'm not like that.
0:58:22 > 0:58:25Richie, please, you forget I know you.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27I know you better than you know yourself.
0:58:32 > 0:58:36# There's a new world comin'
0:58:36 > 0:58:40# And it's just around the bend
0:58:40 > 0:58:44# There's a new world comin'
0:58:44 > 0:58:49# This one's comin' to an end
0:58:49 > 0:58:55# Coming in love. #