0:00:04 > 0:00:06We met at work.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09We just clicked. Something in us clicked.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12He was nice-looking.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14We just really loved each other.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20Where did all that go so sadly wrong?
0:00:20 > 0:00:23When people come to see us, their relationships are over.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27They're in dispute about the most fundamental things in their lives.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30All right, are we ready to go through?
0:00:30 > 0:00:34This is Britain's hidden world of family mediation.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37The house was going to be our financial security
0:00:37 > 0:00:39for when we sold it and downsized later on in life.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41He comes back, he spends time with the kids
0:00:41 > 0:00:44and he disappears back to his new woman and I've had enough of it.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47It's just pure bitterness and that's why she's doing it.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Why should I put up with somebody who's acting like that?
0:00:49 > 0:00:53For a year, we follow the work of National Family Mediation
0:00:53 > 0:00:56who try to help feuding couples to reach agreement.
0:00:56 > 0:00:57Did I leave with any jewellery?
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Did I leave with any jewellery? That's all I'm asking.
0:01:00 > 0:01:01I'm asking you.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03They need to find a compromise...
0:01:03 > 0:01:0420,000's nothing.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06I'm not just having that.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09..to avoid a costly court battle.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10Why can't you come to London?
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Why should a two-year-old child have to travel?
0:01:13 > 0:01:17- Are you able to stay in the room and continue this?- Yeah, I am.- I am.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20She's going to sit there and make snidey remarks.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Oh, hi, there. It's Liz here calling from the Family Mediation Service.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Ah, yes, you left us a voicemail, I think.
0:01:49 > 0:01:50Just returning your call.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52OK, well, how can I help you?
0:01:59 > 0:02:00Grab a seat.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06- As soon as he comes, I'll come and get you, all right?- OK. Thank you.
0:02:10 > 0:02:15I left my husband about three years and two months ago.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21I didn't actually tell him that I was leaving. I left him a note.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26It just said, like, "I'm leaving you."
0:02:26 > 0:02:30And, like, "I'm sorry but I can't do it any more."
0:02:34 > 0:02:36All right.
0:02:36 > 0:02:37Hiya. You OK?
0:02:37 > 0:02:38Yeah, not too bad.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43I actually woke up, found a note on the dining table.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46She had said that, "I'm sorry it didn't work out."
0:02:46 > 0:02:49And this is after 24 years, though.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53I thought, "What hasn't worked out after 24 years?"
0:02:56 > 0:02:58I thought we were good.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00So this sort of came as a surprise.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Shock.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06There's a huge amount of traffic coming out here.
0:03:06 > 0:03:07- There is.- You must know.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11- Which way did you come down? Did you come down the Hagley Road? - Hagley Road.
0:03:11 > 0:03:12Yeah.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16When people come to see me in the middle of a divorce,
0:03:16 > 0:03:19they're often having trouble deciding how to divide up
0:03:19 > 0:03:22the assets they've been building up for years.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27The law suggests a starting point for negotiation of a 50-50 split.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30But, obviously, not everything can be split in half.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38Parvez and Robina's marriage was arranged by their families.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42Since she left him, they've divorced but they still haven't worked out
0:03:42 > 0:03:44which family assets Robina should have.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57So, Robina, what would you like out of mediation?
0:03:59 > 0:04:00Just to settle the house
0:04:00 > 0:04:03and whatever else needs settling basically.
0:04:04 > 0:04:05All right.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08Parvez, what would you like out of mediation?
0:04:08 > 0:04:10Well, a settlement, I suppose.
0:04:10 > 0:04:11Try to avoid costly court...
0:04:12 > 0:04:14..case and...
0:04:14 > 0:04:18see if we can walk away without having to
0:04:18 > 0:04:19- spend too much money.- OK.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24- So, we've got a house and jewellery...- Yeah.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27- ..that we've got to talk about. - Basically, that's it.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33I seen him at his sister-in-law's house.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37She said that they were looking for somebody to get their son married to.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41We did talk and I said, "Yeah, OK, I'll get married to you."
0:04:43 > 0:04:46- INTERVIEWER:- So it's not sounding like a wild romance story.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48No, it wasn't a romance story.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50SHE CHUCKLES
0:04:50 > 0:04:52He was nice-looking though.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54I thought he was nice-looking.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56But I didn't know him or anything.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01Parvez and Robina married in 1987
0:05:01 > 0:05:05and they went on to have three children who are now grown up.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11I hadn't been happy for ages and ages.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13He probably wasn't happy either.
0:05:15 > 0:05:16I got a flat
0:05:16 > 0:05:20and then brought my clothes and stuff a little bit at a time.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24I didn't want him to notice that I was going to go.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33It was a hard decision but I needed to get out of there.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40I've cooked and cleaned and I've looked after them all.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44So I am entitled to something at the end of the day.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46I'm not just, like, a skivvy.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52I'm getting a picture of what assets there are now...
0:05:53 > 0:05:58..financial details, the house that you joint-own together.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Parvez, you're in the house at the moment.
0:06:01 > 0:06:02If I can trouble you
0:06:02 > 0:06:05to contact some local, reputable estate agents
0:06:05 > 0:06:08and just ask three of them to pop round
0:06:08 > 0:06:12and if they would kindly give you a valuation of the property. Is that OK?
0:06:16 > 0:06:18She was a good mum.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20She was a good wife.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22She was a very good housewife.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26Every marriage has ups and downs
0:06:26 > 0:06:29but there was nothing in there that I thought was terrible.
0:06:31 > 0:06:32Since Robina left him,
0:06:32 > 0:06:35Parvez has continued to live in the family home
0:06:35 > 0:06:38along with all three of their children.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41She was very close to the children.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44The children were very, very close to her
0:06:44 > 0:06:45and when she left,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47they were as shocked as me.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Very hurt, very angry about it.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56What we were going to do was to leave the house
0:06:56 > 0:06:59and all the assets and everything to the children.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03I don't see why their inheritance should be taken away from them.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09I would be prepared to pay her off, yeah.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12How much?
0:07:12 > 0:07:13Not quite certain about that.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16I'm not sure about that but...
0:07:16 > 0:07:18as little as possible hopefully.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23MUSIC: Perfect Love by The Diplomats
0:07:23 > 0:07:26# When we're together
0:07:26 > 0:07:31- # Together - I hear the bells ring
0:07:31 > 0:07:33# When we're together
0:07:33 > 0:07:39- # Together - Oh, what a feeling it brings... #
0:07:53 > 0:07:54We can't talk.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57We just cannot talk.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04It makes me so angry because he is thinking all about him.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08He's not thinking about the kids and it just makes me so angry.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14It does get heated sometimes.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17I feel that I am dictated to a lot where
0:08:17 > 0:08:19I can and can't have the children.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29When a couple have an acrimonious break-up,
0:08:29 > 0:08:33agreeing plans for the children can become incredibly difficult.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39As a mediator, my job is to try and help people find a way
0:08:39 > 0:08:42to move forward and leave old arguments behind.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49Matt and Jess were divorced two months ago
0:08:49 > 0:08:52after a ten-year marriage.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Right, are we ready to go through?
0:08:54 > 0:08:57They have three children who all live with Jess.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59They're here to try to resolve an ongoing dispute
0:08:59 > 0:09:03about the children's overnight stays with Matt.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13So, who wants to just tell me very quickly what's currently
0:09:13 > 0:09:16happening that clearly isn't working quite so well?
0:09:16 > 0:09:18At the very beginning, when we first separated,
0:09:18 > 0:09:23we got into a routine where I had them on Monday afternoon
0:09:23 > 0:09:25and evening, Thursday afternoon and evening
0:09:25 > 0:09:29and then when it was my weekend to have the children, I'd have them
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Friday night, Saturday night, take them home Sunday evening.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35Two nights in the week and...
0:09:35 > 0:09:37- Every other weekend. - ..alternate weekends.- Yeah.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40That was in place for a long time.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45And then, Jessica then drops it on me that I'm not to have them
0:09:45 > 0:09:46in the week any more.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Sorry, can I just say, can we call me Jess, not Jessica?
0:09:49 > 0:09:51It really puts me off.
0:09:51 > 0:09:56Jess then decided that I wasn't to have them in the week any more.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00Firstly, a lot has changed in the last six months.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Our eldest is going to secondary school.
0:10:03 > 0:10:04She starts in September.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08So, routine is paramount to me.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11So then this is leading on to other things as well.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14Because at the moment, it's fine because you have your own...
0:10:14 > 0:10:18your own bungalow but that's going to change as well
0:10:18 > 0:10:21so he's moving in with his girlfriend where she'll, Katie,
0:10:21 > 0:10:24who will be 12 in a couple of weeks, will have to share a room
0:10:24 > 0:10:28with an eight-year-old and a seven-year-old.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31And going to secondary school, she needs her own space.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34That's a massive concern to me.
0:10:35 > 0:10:36Like, massive.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42I didn't do well at school.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45And secondary school is so important.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48Nowadays, if you don't do well in secondary school,
0:10:48 > 0:10:51you're not going to get into college, uni...
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Katie, she's so intelligent, she's in, like, the highest
0:10:56 > 0:10:59of everything, and it's something that
0:10:59 > 0:11:02she needs to just buckle down and do.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05It's something that I just really believe in strongly.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10It is only a few weeks before Matt plans
0:11:10 > 0:11:12to move in with his new partner.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18She already has two children living with her at home.
0:11:20 > 0:11:25Five children in a three-bed house?
0:11:25 > 0:11:29It's not practical. That is how I see it.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33If they had a five-bed house or a six-bed house, then that
0:11:33 > 0:11:36is totally different, but at the moment,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39I can't put my kids through that.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45So do you want to explain or talk to Jess
0:11:45 > 0:11:49about some of those concerns that she's just raised?
0:11:49 > 0:11:54Katie would share a room with an eight and a seven-year-old.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57That is literally to sleep.
0:11:57 > 0:12:03But we have got plans to have a separate study area.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08I have got a bungalow I rent from my parents at the minute,
0:12:08 > 0:12:12where the children have their bedrooms, but as time has gone on,
0:12:12 > 0:12:13I will be moving out of there,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16I will be moving in with my girlfriend.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20I don't want to have two separate lives where
0:12:20 > 0:12:24I do one thing with my new partner and her family,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26and then a totally separate thing with our children.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30Which is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
0:12:31 > 0:12:37As her mum, what I say goes, and routine is paramount.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40You can't have the stance of what you say goes.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43No, I know that, but I'm putting her best interests at heart, Matt.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45- Are you?- Yes, of course I am!
0:13:03 > 0:13:05In addition to their home,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08Parvez and Robina have one other significant asset
0:13:08 > 0:13:11they need to decide what to do with.
0:13:12 > 0:13:17- I notice you give a value of family jewellery.- Yeah.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21- You say, was it, erm...? - £10,000 for all the jewellery.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24There is two pots of jewellery. I'm going to get my mind around it.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27There is Robina's jewellery, it came with you when you got married...
0:13:27 > 0:13:29- Yeah.- ..and... - I think there was...
0:13:29 > 0:13:32And basically, do you know the jewellery that his family
0:13:32 > 0:13:34gave me when I got married as well? That.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38So I am not quite sure what I am meant to do with that.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41If I am meant to keep it or give it to him or whatever.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45That jewellery was given to us for our marriage.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48It is a form of security for us.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Correct me if I am wrong, but we have always thought that
0:13:51 > 0:13:54if the children get married, we will transfer it to them.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56- Yeah.- Give it to them.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04In our culture, jewellery and money is sort of financial security.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Nine times out of ten, it is not needed.
0:14:07 > 0:14:11If it is not needed, we tend to pass it on to the children.
0:14:12 > 0:14:13That is the done thing.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18Custom, I suppose, rooted in traditional values.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21And they are not just Asian values, let's face it.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28As age creeps up, you get the sense that you don't need these things.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32The next generation will benefit from them.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37And that is where my thinking comes from.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42One of the girls is looking at marriage.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50And I have met the family, I am OK with the family.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Robina has said she can have the jewellery,
0:14:52 > 0:14:55I don't know what jewellery she was talking about.
0:14:55 > 0:14:56Yeah, but basically,
0:14:56 > 0:15:00what I really want to do is keep a couple of pieces out of there,
0:15:00 > 0:15:02because they're a bit sentimental,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05because they are from my mum and that lot.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07And then just give all the rest of it to them.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14When my daughters found out I was leaving, they basically
0:15:14 > 0:15:19made it clear to me that they didn't want to know me if I did leave.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24I've not seen them for over three years.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27At the end of the day, I'm their mum, and I miss my kids,
0:15:27 > 0:15:30and I wish I could see them.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33But I keep thinking to myself, as long as they are happy,
0:15:33 > 0:15:36I should be happy, do you know what I mean?
0:15:36 > 0:15:41Robina now lives alone in a rented one-bedroom flat,
0:15:41 > 0:15:44ten miles away from her former home.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47She left with around £5,000 of family savings
0:15:47 > 0:15:49to start her new life.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53And she is now working as a cleaner.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59I only get paid the minimum wage, £6.50 an hour.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02But at the moment, I am really struggling
0:16:02 > 0:16:05and I'm in quite a bit of debts with my bills and stuff.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09All I want is, like, my share of the house, basically.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13A bit of security for myself, that is all I need.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17So what we have agreed is the family jewellery,
0:16:17 > 0:16:20Robina will say which items she wants.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23You're thinking - nothing's cast in stone -
0:16:23 > 0:16:25the rest will go to the children.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27The house is the only other asset as such, yes?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Parvez is going to get three property valuations,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33- is that all right? - Yeah, yeah.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35Have we boxed that off as well as we can for now?
0:16:35 > 0:16:38- Yeah.- I like to tick milestones that we've achieved.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Yeah, that's good, that's an achievement.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43OK. Now, who would like to leave first? You'd like to leave first?
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Five minutes later, I'll be asking Parvez to leave,
0:16:46 > 0:16:47is that all right?
0:16:47 > 0:16:49You're not going to be waiting downstairs
0:16:49 > 0:16:50with a baseball bat, are you?
0:16:50 > 0:16:52- MEDIATOR LAUGHS - You sure?
0:17:02 > 0:17:06My problem is, Jess, like you said earlier,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09what you say goes, and...
0:17:09 > 0:17:11No, it's not, that is why we are here. Sorry.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13Jess, just let Matt finish, please.
0:17:13 > 0:17:19If your idea is X, and my idea is Y, the conversation ends
0:17:19 > 0:17:21because X is happening.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25You are their mother and that is it, final, end of, end of story.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28Do you want to respond to that?
0:17:30 > 0:17:32That might have been how I was, Matt,
0:17:32 > 0:17:35because I was angry and seeing things from different perspectives.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39A year and a half down the line, I have sat here with you today
0:17:39 > 0:17:42so we can both figure this out.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46And I can take into consideration what you want, what I want,
0:17:46 > 0:17:48but most importantly, the kids.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53That was how it was, Matt, things have totally changed now.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56Trust me, Matt, I don't want to be here sat next to you,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58but I am here for the kids.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05I think that was an important message to deliver, Jess.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09And probably one you haven't heard before.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13- No.- And so I would ask you to take that on board, Matt,
0:18:13 > 0:18:16because you're both here because you love your children,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19and you want what is best for them.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23Do you need to have a break, Jess?
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Are you sure?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31- INTERVIEWER:- Who is the person he's living with now?
0:18:32 > 0:18:36Erm, Amy, which was my best friend.
0:18:42 > 0:18:44- There you go.- Thank you.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00MUSIC: Let's Face The Music And Dance by Frank Sinatra
0:19:00 > 0:19:03# There may be trouble ahead
0:19:05 > 0:19:12# But while there's moonlight and music and love and romance
0:19:13 > 0:19:17# Let's face the music and dance... #
0:19:23 > 0:19:26PHONE RINGS
0:19:26 > 0:19:28Hello, Family Mediation?
0:19:28 > 0:19:31OK, thank you very much. Thank you, bye-bye.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Just, erm, take a seat, will you, Catia? We'll be a minute.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56He broke up with me.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59He just said, "I don't love you any more",
0:19:59 > 0:20:01he just moved to his mum's house.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06Of course, me as a mum, I want the best for the daughter.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09My only option is going back to Portugal.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15Catia told me outright, "I intend to leave the country with Susie."
0:20:15 > 0:20:18To which, my reaction was quite angry.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20"No, you're not. You're not going anywhere."
0:20:23 > 0:20:26'Mediation is usually about compromise.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30'But when we're talking about children relocating
0:20:30 > 0:20:35'to another country with a parent, there isn't a compromise.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37'Either they go or they don't.'
0:20:37 > 0:20:40If you are ready, we can go through.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44Catia and Ben split up two years ago.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48They have come to try to resolve their disagreement
0:20:48 > 0:20:51over the new life that Catia is planning
0:20:51 > 0:20:53for their three-year-old daughter Susie.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06So this is about you and Susie.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10You're proposing to leave London and to go to Portugal
0:21:10 > 0:21:13- and live there.- Yep.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17And you are aware that that is going to be quite disruptive,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19I suppose, for the contact between...
0:21:19 > 0:21:21Yeah, I do think about that, but at the same time, it is
0:21:21 > 0:21:25- about how the situation is at the moment living in England.- Yeah.
0:21:25 > 0:21:31Like some... How do you call it? I don't have, like, money to live.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40We met when I was 19.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42It wasn't, like, love at first sight.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45But he was responsible, he wanted children,
0:21:45 > 0:21:47he wanted to be a good dad.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50All of those things were very important for me.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55I would say we had a nice, good, normal relationship.
0:21:57 > 0:22:02- Thank you.- Catia and Ben's daughter Susie was born in 2012.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Since they separated, Catia has been working full-time
0:22:07 > 0:22:12in a nursery and receiving maintenance payments from Ben.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17This has to pay for childcare as well as the rent for their flat.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20I basically pay 1,200 a month for a two-bedroom
0:22:20 > 0:22:24then I have the bills on top of that.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26It's a lot of money.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30Is it nice, Susie? Yes?
0:22:30 > 0:22:31'The money is running out.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34'If I carry on like this, I will be in debt.'
0:22:34 > 0:22:36It just doesn't work in London.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38It is just impossible.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42I do want to let him see that there is actually options
0:22:42 > 0:22:44where children can still have contact.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46You have my contact of Skype.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49You know she's only interested in that for two minutes
0:22:49 > 0:22:52and then that is it - attention span gone.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55And then we have holidays and weekend breaks.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59So obviously Portugal is not 12 hours away,
0:22:59 > 0:23:01it is only two hours away from here.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05There are very cheap tickets, I was thinking about, like,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Christmas-time and birthdays,
0:23:07 > 0:23:10kind of alternate, one year going to be me,
0:23:10 > 0:23:13one year going to be Ben, so it can be kind of fair.
0:23:15 > 0:23:19We met at the place we were both working.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23I saw her during my induction. I was like, "Hello!
0:23:23 > 0:23:25"How are you? I would like to get to know you."
0:23:25 > 0:23:28And we were very similar, like-minded people.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32We both had a huge passion for our jobs, we just clicked.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34Something in us clicked.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37And then we were a couple by the summer, an official couple.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43Like Catia, Ben also works with children in a nursery.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45He met Catia six years ago,
0:23:45 > 0:23:49when they started a new job at the same time.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51- INTERVIEWER: - Were you in love with her?
0:23:51 > 0:23:53Of course I was.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56I wouldn't make a child with someone I wasn't in love with
0:23:56 > 0:23:59and didn't think we were going to be together forever.
0:24:04 > 0:24:08But no-one ever tells you what the initial six months
0:24:08 > 0:24:12afterwards are going to be. It just wasn't working.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17We were arguing in front of Susie when she was just three months old.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19Perhaps it just wasn't meant to be.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27Can you give us an idea of what sort of role you would see yourself
0:24:27 > 0:24:31playing in the circumstances that Catia would like?
0:24:31 > 0:24:35I see myself being nothing really. I don't see...
0:24:35 > 0:24:36So that is your worry?
0:24:36 > 0:24:39I don't see any positive aspect of me
0:24:39 > 0:24:44and Susie bonding, being father and daughter,
0:24:44 > 0:24:48having a positive impact on her life - I don't see it, I cannot see it.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Good afternoon, Debbie speaking, how can I help you?
0:24:59 > 0:25:01So have you considered mediation at all?
0:25:03 > 0:25:06It's Jess and Matt's second meeting,
0:25:06 > 0:25:09and Matt is about to move out of his rented bungalow.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13They are still in dispute about whether their children
0:25:13 > 0:25:17can stay overnight at the home of Matt's new partner, Amy.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21I have known her ever since we were married,
0:25:21 > 0:25:23so about 12, 13 years.
0:25:24 > 0:25:30We went to Dubai, we went on girlie breaks. We were really close.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32Really close.
0:25:34 > 0:25:35Not so much now.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42Come through, Jess, have a seat.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46This morning, reaching an agreement has become even more urgent.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51I'm going away tomorrow night.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55At the moment, I don't know who is having my children.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58- Are you saying you don't know who is having the children?- Mm.
0:25:58 > 0:25:59Nor do I, I have no idea.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01I texted you months ago saying,
0:26:01 > 0:26:05"I'm going away, are you able to have the kids?"
0:26:05 > 0:26:07- You have never got back to me. - But I can't...
0:26:07 > 0:26:09- It's your weekend. - If I am working...
0:26:09 > 0:26:12Well, obviously, then I will have them over the weekend, obviously.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16- OK.- It is my weekend to have them, that surely goes without saying.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19- But we need to talk about the Sunday night.- Why?
0:26:19 > 0:26:24- Because obviously they would need to be at the bungalow.- Why?
0:26:24 > 0:26:28So they can have their own room, they will be at the bungalow.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30I'm sorry, but...
0:26:30 > 0:26:33Well, then I will arrange something else then, it's fine.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36They've even text you themselves to say, "When Mummy's away..."
0:26:36 > 0:26:38Yeah, I wonder why(!)
0:26:38 > 0:26:41- What do you mean?- Monday... - Matt.
0:26:41 > 0:26:42They text you saying...
0:26:42 > 0:26:45- If the shifts change...- Can I talk?! - ..I can have them on the Monday.
0:26:47 > 0:26:51They text you to say can they stay with you at the bungalow.
0:26:51 > 0:26:55- They don't like going round there all the time.- Oh, please, just...
0:26:57 > 0:26:59My point of view, to move forward,
0:26:59 > 0:27:02a massive point I'm going to bring up,
0:27:02 > 0:27:05it's all a personal vendetta to get to me.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07- Matt... - So we are touching on it now,
0:27:07 > 0:27:09but I'm not asking you to respond to it now.
0:27:09 > 0:27:11Just hold that, please.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16She says she's doing it for the children, but I think it is more to
0:27:16 > 0:27:22get to me and hurt me more, rather than what is best for the children.
0:27:22 > 0:27:27I think there is a lot of resentment or blame, I don't know.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30But it is because they are old friends.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33- You can't punish me... - I'm not punishing you!
0:27:33 > 0:27:35Because it is a personal vendetta.
0:27:35 > 0:27:38- No, I don't...- I will stick by that. It is a personal vendetta.
0:27:38 > 0:27:39I don't care what you do!
0:27:39 > 0:27:41- I want to stop... - You need to get past that.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44- No, YOU do. You do. - I'm going to stop you both.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56You are saying that you are in debt even though
0:27:56 > 0:27:58you are working full-time.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00Yeah, that is what is happening at the moment.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03Me moving home to Portugal means I have a house, three-bedroom,
0:28:03 > 0:28:06I don't need to pay rent, I don't need to worry about the house,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09and I do have an offer for a job as well, which is in my area,
0:28:09 > 0:28:12nursery nurse, and I do have family and friend support.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14And of course, I just want to live a better life.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17Can I ask you a question? You say a better life.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19You have not lived there since you were 13 years old,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21- how old are you now? - I have been here 15 years.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24You haven't lived there full-time since you were 13 years old,
0:28:24 > 0:28:26- so how old are you now?- 15, thank you, I came here when I was 15.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29- You were 13 when you came here. - No, 15.- OK, how old are you now?
0:28:29 > 0:28:31You know better than me(!)
0:28:33 > 0:28:37In Portugal, we have a lot more summer.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40It is nice weather, which makes a difference.
0:28:40 > 0:28:45Lots of different beaches as well. Susie absolutely loves it.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47Susie can't imagine.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50She is like, "Wow", and she just runs to the water.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54Playing with the waves, playing with the sand.
0:28:56 > 0:29:00So it is a nice, good lifestyle to actually have, you know,
0:29:00 > 0:29:02all of this around.
0:29:03 > 0:29:08I have a house for free, no bills, my dad is there,
0:29:08 > 0:29:11all the friends, I have all the support.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13So obviously, I will be better off there.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19I'm quite upset they can't really see my real intentions,
0:29:19 > 0:29:25which is not being mean, and is not about separating Susie from Ben,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28but actually giving a better life.
0:29:28 > 0:29:32Are there any circumstances, Catia, in which you could stay?
0:29:32 > 0:29:34What would enable you to stay?
0:29:34 > 0:29:37I cannot see any better option than going back to Portugal.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40There are options that benefit everybody here.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42You haven't explored them.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45I have offered you opportunities so many times.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48- For example, her coming to live with me.- Mmm...
0:29:48 > 0:29:50But every time I have offered you,
0:29:50 > 0:29:52all you have done is screamed in my face, saying, "It is not good."
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Because it is not enough.
0:29:55 > 0:29:58I don't believe she would be better with her mum then me.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01I don't believe that one little bit.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05I work with children between the ages of three months and five years.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09It is something I do on a day-to-day basis, educating children,
0:30:09 > 0:30:13not just ABC, 123, I'm teaching them life skills.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16All of this stuff, I am able to do it all.
0:30:18 > 0:30:22Ben only has a one-bedroom flat, but Susie has her own room
0:30:22 > 0:30:26at his parents, a five-minute walk around the corner.
0:30:26 > 0:30:29And his mum has offered to help with childcare.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33My mum, her nana is like a second mother to her.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35Susie absolutely adores her nana,
0:30:35 > 0:30:40and she's the daughter my mother never had. She loves her to bits.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42I have offered so many times, I said to her,
0:30:42 > 0:30:46"Catia, why don't you let Susie come and live with me and my mum?"
0:30:46 > 0:30:50Which takes bills off, and then you can perhaps stay and downsize,
0:30:50 > 0:30:54cos she's complained about bills, about the rent and money.
0:30:54 > 0:30:59But Catia is hellbent on her idea of going home.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04How about contact with her mum?
0:31:04 > 0:31:06Well, if she's here, she can have her every weekend.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08I'm not going to be here. That's the issue here.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10It's either with you, or with me.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13OK, all right, then if you're away in Portugal,
0:31:13 > 0:31:16then I'll pay for the flights out for her to come out
0:31:16 > 0:31:19to see you every other weekend or whatever.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22She can have the entire summer with you.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25Then she comes here when...
0:31:25 > 0:31:27So you don't think it's better for her to actually live
0:31:27 > 0:31:29that nice, relaxed life on a daily basis?
0:31:29 > 0:31:33You think she benefits more just having it every now and again?
0:31:33 > 0:31:37I believe it's better to not uproot her from everything she knows.
0:31:39 > 0:31:41I'm not asking you to make decisions now.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43It's about going away and thinking about it.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45For both of you.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50I didn't create Susie's life for no reason.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55If she goes, it will completely destroy us.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57Destroy me.
0:31:58 > 0:32:03He's scared that he won't see Susie and Susie will forget Daddy,
0:32:03 > 0:32:07but I don't think he should be afraid of that at all,
0:32:07 > 0:32:09cos that's not what's going to happen.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11I just want him to give me a chance.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19It's a very difficult decision to have to make either way.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34Robina is returning for a second meeting with Parvez
0:32:34 > 0:32:36to discuss how to divide the family home.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40She's been reflecting on her decision to give up
0:32:40 > 0:32:43thousands of pounds' worth of wedding jewellery
0:32:43 > 0:32:45that the couple keep in a bank vault.
0:32:46 > 0:32:51I decided that with the jewellery that I got from my mum
0:32:51 > 0:32:53and his parents,
0:32:53 > 0:32:56I feel like that's a present for me
0:32:56 > 0:33:00and nobody's got a right to tell me who I should give it to,
0:33:00 > 0:33:03cos at the end of the day, it should be my choice.
0:33:09 > 0:33:13I've changed my mind. I've decided, you know the jewellery?
0:33:13 > 0:33:16It's all mine and it's up to me what I want to do with it.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18We agreed to give it to the kids.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20Well, I'm not with you any more
0:33:20 > 0:33:21and if I've got a bad time...
0:33:21 > 0:33:24It doesn't matter whether you're with me or not.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26This is something that I'm not interested in.
0:33:26 > 0:33:31Either come to meetings and make agreements and stick by them,
0:33:31 > 0:33:33or...
0:33:33 > 0:33:35- leave it. - I thought you had to give it.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38- No, you didn't.- But you don't have to, because it's my jewellery.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41Stick to something, so that I've got something to work with.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51I'm not the kind of person that likes materialistic things,
0:33:51 > 0:33:52to be honest.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56I'd rather have somebody in my life that loved me and cherished me
0:33:56 > 0:33:58and same, vice versa.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02This flat's, like, all me.
0:34:02 > 0:34:07What I want my life to be is, like, love and happiness!
0:34:09 > 0:34:12With my place, I can just decorate it the way I want.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15I haven't got anybody telling me, "You can't put that up there."
0:34:15 > 0:34:18It wasn't like that when we were married,
0:34:18 > 0:34:20cos my husband wouldn't have them.
0:34:22 > 0:34:26Why shouldn't I have a bit of happiness in my life?
0:34:26 > 0:34:29I need to do what's best for me.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39I've read the financial statement Robina wrote
0:34:39 > 0:34:42and she wants me to sell the house
0:34:42 > 0:34:45- and split the proceeds. - I don't want you to sell...
0:34:45 > 0:34:48- Yeah.- I don't want to sell it, cos I did say to you...
0:34:48 > 0:34:50I'm just saying that's what it says.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53I don't want to sell the house. I'm not saying that.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55I'm just saying you're in the house -
0:34:55 > 0:34:58if you want to sell the house and give me my share,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01that's fine, but it's up to him what he wants to do,
0:35:01 > 0:35:02cos he's in the house.
0:35:05 > 0:35:10The family home is Parvez and Robina's most valuable asset.
0:35:10 > 0:35:15If they sold it today, they would have around £80,000 to divide.
0:35:15 > 0:35:18I think what she wants is half the money.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21It would mean moving from this house.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26It would mean me having to go and find somewhere to rent...
0:35:28 > 0:35:30..or buy another property
0:35:30 > 0:35:34that would meet my needs, because of my disability.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40These are our plans
0:35:40 > 0:35:44for the extension. Living space now
0:35:44 > 0:35:48to be converted into a downstairs bedroom with a ramp
0:35:48 > 0:35:52to give me wheelchair access. That is something I won't be able to do
0:35:52 > 0:35:54if I sold the house.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59And another thing I think
0:35:59 > 0:36:02she's not taking into account is what would happen to the children.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06What do you think I should be going for?
0:36:06 > 0:36:08What do you think I should be looking for?
0:36:08 > 0:36:10I don't think you should back off,
0:36:10 > 0:36:12cos you've had to raise us for the last three years
0:36:12 > 0:36:13and if it wasn't for you,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16we wouldn't have got through our studies or anything.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19And she'd be more than happy just to take the house
0:36:19 > 0:36:21and have us live on the street.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24It all comes down to money
0:36:24 > 0:36:26and that's how families break.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33I actually looked forward to growing old together.
0:36:34 > 0:36:36That's what I envisaged.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43Should you not be looking at you and me growing old together,
0:36:43 > 0:36:45having grandchildren together,
0:36:45 > 0:36:47your nest egg?
0:36:47 > 0:36:51You can have whatever you want. Just get back together and reconciliate.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54Well, I told you I didn't want to come back.
0:37:00 > 0:37:05# Tonight you're mine, completely
0:37:08 > 0:37:14# You give your love so sweetly
0:37:14 > 0:37:21# Tonight, the light of love is in your eyes
0:37:21 > 0:37:27# But will you love me tomorrow? #
0:37:39 > 0:37:4140 minutes into their meeting,
0:37:41 > 0:37:44Matt and Jess still haven't agreed where their children will stay
0:37:44 > 0:37:47whilst Jess is away on holiday.
0:37:47 > 0:37:52I do not sit comfortably with being dictated to
0:37:52 > 0:37:56where I choose to spend the evening with my children.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59OK.
0:37:59 > 0:38:01That's because you're thinking about you and not the children.
0:38:01 > 0:38:03No, I'm not thinking about me.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05I don't see why...
0:38:05 > 0:38:07I have to...
0:38:07 > 0:38:10explain and...
0:38:10 > 0:38:14provide evidence of what I'm doing with my life with my children.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17I don't understand it. I don't ask it from you.
0:38:18 > 0:38:19- OK.- Why do I have to provide this?
0:38:19 > 0:38:21It's because, like I said earlier,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23it's all a personal vendetta against me and Amy.
0:38:23 > 0:38:24That's not how it is!
0:38:24 > 0:38:26You don't know how I'm feeling,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29- because all you are thinking about is yourself!- No, it's not!
0:38:29 > 0:38:31Matt, all I'm interested in,
0:38:31 > 0:38:33- it's the kids. - I am interested in the kids.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37A year ago, Matt, I was in a totally different place.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39I'm in such a better place now
0:38:39 > 0:38:41and all I want is what's best for the kids.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44- So do I.- And you keep thinking about yourself.
0:38:44 > 0:38:45How? Tell me how, explain how.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47Because you're not thinking about the kids.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49- Explain how.- I can't do it.
0:38:49 > 0:38:52- OK.- Explain how, Jess. - Can I take a minute?- Take a break.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58I don't see how she can sit there and say I'm only thinking of myself.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00I don't understand it.
0:39:00 > 0:39:02I'm not going to talk to you while Jess isn't here.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04Yeah, I know, it's fine.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09'I can't tell you how angry it makes me.'
0:39:09 > 0:39:11He's not putting their needs first
0:39:11 > 0:39:13and I'm not stopping him seeing them, that's the thing.
0:39:13 > 0:39:16If you ask so many other families that go through it,
0:39:16 > 0:39:19some dads don't even see their kids.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23I saw my dad once every other Saturday when I was growing up.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30And I won't be bullied into anything now.
0:39:33 > 0:39:39No. Been there, done that. Not going to be a doormat any more.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42- Do you want longer? - No, I'm all right.- Are you sure?
0:39:42 > 0:39:43No? OK.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49OK, so I'm just going to stop you
0:39:49 > 0:39:53and I'm going to just talk to you about what I'm observing.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56So...
0:39:56 > 0:40:00it's not unusual when relationships end
0:40:00 > 0:40:05that it can take a person actually 18 months to two years
0:40:05 > 0:40:07to get to a level
0:40:07 > 0:40:11and sometimes there is one person that is ahead of the other person
0:40:11 > 0:40:14in terms of the ending of the relationship
0:40:14 > 0:40:17and so for Jess, two years down the line,
0:40:17 > 0:40:20Jess is saying, "It's hard but I'm ready,
0:40:20 > 0:40:22"I'm in a different place, I'm a different person."
0:40:22 > 0:40:26- Can I say it was the other way round at the beginning, though?- OK.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28- I didn't end the relationship.- OK.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35It wasn't actually me that ended the relationship.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39It was Jess that ended the relationship and it was, erm...
0:40:39 > 0:40:44very similar times when Jess got with her new boyfriend
0:40:44 > 0:40:46and I got together with Amy.
0:40:48 > 0:40:50I think it's purely because of who I'm with now.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53- It was the reverse? - Complete reverse.
0:40:53 > 0:40:54OK. But... OK.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00Even so, it's taken Jess longer to get to a point
0:41:00 > 0:41:03where things can settle.
0:41:03 > 0:41:09Your reality is, the way you are now will send you both crazy
0:41:09 > 0:41:11if you continue to do it.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14Whatever is underlying any of this,
0:41:14 > 0:41:16you both need to shift.
0:41:31 > 0:41:35Ben is returning for a second mediation meeting with Catia.
0:41:35 > 0:41:38They need to come to a decision about whether Catia will move
0:41:38 > 0:41:41to Portugal with their daughter Susie.
0:41:41 > 0:41:42Come here.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54- She's ready for the toilet. - Bye-bye, Daddy.- See you later.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58I need to tell Ben the pressure is on.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02I have no money for the rent any more.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04Of course, no salary as well, as I gave up the job.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08I have no time to be waiting and to be around
0:42:08 > 0:42:11for another two-three months, one year, whatever.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13Just, I have to do something.
0:42:16 > 0:42:20One of our main aims in family mediation is to try to help people
0:42:20 > 0:42:24avoid the stress of ending up in a court hearing.
0:42:25 > 0:42:29We can sort things out far more quickly and amicably here,
0:42:29 > 0:42:31providing people are able to agree.
0:42:36 > 0:42:40All you've said to me is, "We need to hurry up, so I can go,"
0:42:40 > 0:42:44so I don't even understand why we're here, in a way,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47because you're not even thinking
0:42:47 > 0:42:50- about the possibility of staying, are you?- No.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52- I'll be honest, no.- No.
0:42:53 > 0:42:55I'm not.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57It's not possible, it's not better for anyone,
0:42:57 > 0:43:01and I want the best, of course, as a mum, for my children.
0:43:01 > 0:43:04With time, you're going to see that it doesn't affect your relationship
0:43:04 > 0:43:06with your daughter, cos it won't.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08- It will!- No, it won't.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10There are lots of relationships like this.
0:43:10 > 0:43:12There are situations like this all over the world.
0:43:12 > 0:43:13That's not me and Susie.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15You'll still have a relationship with Susie.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17Susie will call you, you will see her on Skype
0:43:17 > 0:43:19- and you're going to see each other on holidays.- So...
0:43:19 > 0:43:22It's going to be always a relationship there.
0:43:22 > 0:43:23Not good enough.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26Well, I'm more concerned about, really, Susie's wellbeing
0:43:26 > 0:43:28and it's not in this country, I'm sorry.
0:43:34 > 0:43:36I can't stop her from going, in the long run.
0:43:38 > 0:43:42I have been told from a solicitor that if we went to court,
0:43:42 > 0:43:46the court would be very unlikely to split Catia and Susie up.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50I believe the court would just say, "OK, you can go," anyway.
0:43:52 > 0:43:56If Ben and Catia can agree arrangements for Susie in mediation,
0:43:56 > 0:44:00a solicitor will be able to help them make these legally binding.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05If Catia does go,
0:44:05 > 0:44:08then the next step is to get the best possible agreement.
0:44:10 > 0:44:12Any other questions?
0:44:12 > 0:44:14Well, I want the question,
0:44:14 > 0:44:17"Does he want to make an agreement between me like this
0:44:17 > 0:44:19- "or in the courts?" - So under what circumstances
0:44:19 > 0:44:22would you feel comfortable about agreeing to this move?
0:44:24 > 0:44:26- I'll never be comfortable agreeing. - No.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29Never. You're signing my whole life away,
0:44:29 > 0:44:32but if there are guarantees put in place,
0:44:32 > 0:44:35then I might be able to agree to it.
0:44:50 > 0:44:54So, Wednesday, Thursday - what can you do?
0:44:54 > 0:44:55What's this, sorry?
0:44:55 > 0:44:58Right, OK. What, am I having them overnight or what?
0:44:58 > 0:44:59Yeah, it will be at the bungalow.
0:44:59 > 0:45:03See, this is what I'm saying. "It WILL be at the bungalow."
0:45:05 > 0:45:10For so long, I've been told what is happening with my children.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13- And I don't agree with it.- Mm.- Um...
0:45:13 > 0:45:15And I just...
0:45:15 > 0:45:16The whole thing is just wrong.
0:45:18 > 0:45:19That...
0:45:19 > 0:45:21I can say no to it all.
0:45:22 > 0:45:23Can I be honest?
0:45:23 > 0:45:26- In complete reality, I'm being completely honest.- Mm, please do.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29This will never, ever get sorted out.
0:45:29 > 0:45:32- Five kids in a three-bed house! - Because of this stance.
0:45:32 > 0:45:35I'm doing you a favour by being here. I want this sorted!
0:45:40 > 0:45:42You know, it's all fine, Jess getting emotional
0:45:42 > 0:45:45and walking out of the room. Don't you think I'm emotional?
0:45:45 > 0:45:48Don't you think, like, this is messing with me?
0:45:48 > 0:45:51You need to get over the fact that I'm with someone, that I'm with Amy.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53- I don't care who you are with. - Right...
0:45:53 > 0:45:56- You're talking at the same time again.- Right.
0:45:56 > 0:45:57Because... This is...
0:45:57 > 0:46:00- Because I'm saying stuff that Jess doesn't like.- No.- It's reality.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03It's reality, and this will not get sorted out
0:46:03 > 0:46:05because you're not real, Jess.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14You are going to have to do decide whether your reality is
0:46:14 > 0:46:17that you are going to be able to agree this between yourselves,
0:46:17 > 0:46:21in terms of the day-to-day arrangements, or not.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25If you'd go to court and say to a judge,
0:46:25 > 0:46:26"Here you are, judge, here are our kids,
0:46:26 > 0:46:29"let's put the matter into your hands,"
0:46:29 > 0:46:31you'll be told what's happening to your children,
0:46:31 > 0:46:34you'll be told when you're seeing your children.
0:46:34 > 0:46:36And off you'll have to toddle and do it.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45So let's just go and summarise those guarantees that you want.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48- So there's Skype.- Yeah.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52- How often?- Yeah, every day if he wants.- So daily Skype.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54How about the actual visits?
0:46:54 > 0:46:56He can go all the time.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58Realistically, how much do you think that's going to cost you?
0:46:58 > 0:47:02- A weekend will probably cost me all of £300.- How much?
0:47:02 > 0:47:04I can't see it being cheaper than that.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06- No. - SHE LAUGHS
0:47:06 > 0:47:07OK. Whatever.
0:47:07 > 0:47:11I did see breaks for, like, 120, with hotel included.
0:47:11 > 0:47:13It's that cheap.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16Um, so 120 to 300.
0:47:16 > 0:47:17Holidays.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21How often would you want to visit?
0:47:21 > 0:47:23- As often as possible.- Mm-hm.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27So, realistically, what would you think?
0:47:27 > 0:47:29It would probably be every other month.
0:47:31 > 0:47:32This is what you would like.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37I want more, but I'm not going to get it from her.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41- So, if I write this up...- Mm-hm.
0:47:41 > 0:47:43..in a summary like this,
0:47:43 > 0:47:47are you both agreed to go ahead and get legal advice?
0:47:50 > 0:47:51Mm-hm.
0:47:51 > 0:47:53So, basically, you take that to a solicitor
0:47:53 > 0:47:56and then that agreement can be drawn up formally,
0:47:56 > 0:47:58if you want it to be.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01- OK?- Thank you.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03Um, Catia, if you'd like to come outside,
0:48:03 > 0:48:06- I've just got a document I want you to sign.- All right.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13But Catia and Ben didn't go to the solicitors.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16FIREWORKS WHISTLE AND BANG
0:48:21 > 0:48:24Three days later, things had changed.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27So, obviously, we had the mediation on the Monday
0:48:27 > 0:48:30and then, on Thursday, I called Catia.
0:48:30 > 0:48:31Instantly, when it started ringing,
0:48:31 > 0:48:34I realised it was a foreign dial tone.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37She picks up, and she acts like everything's normal.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41I say, um, "So where is Susie?"
0:48:42 > 0:48:43And she tells me,
0:48:43 > 0:48:46"No, I've got to tell you something, but not right now."
0:48:46 > 0:48:49I said, "Are you in Portugal? Where is my daughter?"
0:48:49 > 0:48:51She said, "Well, I didn't want to tell you this today
0:48:51 > 0:48:53"but, yes, we moved yesterday."
0:48:53 > 0:48:56Which would have been the Wednesday.
0:48:56 > 0:48:59It was...such a shock.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01For me, there's only one route to go now.
0:49:01 > 0:49:05It's the formal route. There is no working with her, clearly.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08From where I stand, she doesn't want to work with anyone.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10She wants everything her way.
0:49:10 > 0:49:14And now it's not happening, it's going to be done properly.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16FIREWORKS BANG AND POP
0:49:21 > 0:49:23# Just the two of us
0:49:23 > 0:49:26# We can make it if we try
0:49:26 > 0:49:28# Just the two of us
0:49:28 > 0:49:31# Just the two of us
0:49:31 > 0:49:33# Just the two of us
0:49:33 > 0:49:36# Building castles in the sky
0:49:36 > 0:49:38# Just the two of us
0:49:38 > 0:49:40# You and I... #
0:49:45 > 0:49:50It's six weeks since Parvez and Robina first started mediation.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54Hello, guys. I do apologise. Sorry to keep you waiting.
0:49:54 > 0:49:56- Hiya.- Hi.- That's all right.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59They still haven't reached agreement on either the house
0:49:59 > 0:50:00or the family jewellery.
0:50:01 > 0:50:05On the jewellery, have you got any photographs of them at all?
0:50:05 > 0:50:07- I made a list two weeks ago.- OK.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12- What's not on there is a set of diamonds.- Yeah?
0:50:12 > 0:50:16- And I think those need to be added on.- Whose are those?
0:50:16 > 0:50:18- They're mine. - They were actually bought...
0:50:18 > 0:50:20For me, as a gift.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23They were bought for Farah to wear.
0:50:23 > 0:50:25They were not. Stop telling lies.
0:50:25 > 0:50:29They were bought as a present for me. He's telling lies.
0:50:29 > 0:50:30Robina, that's a lie, that is.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33Basically, the diamonds, he bought for me
0:50:33 > 0:50:37when it was my nephew's wedding. He bought it for me.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40It would be very nice if we can push things forward.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43I don't want to keep burning up your money.
0:50:43 > 0:50:45So, Parvez, what are you proposing?
0:50:46 > 0:50:50My proposal is, keep all of the jewellery.
0:50:50 > 0:50:51Yes?
0:50:51 > 0:50:54Keep all the money that she took.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57There are two items that the girls wanted.
0:50:57 > 0:50:58But she can have the rest.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02- Keep it all.- But the things... - Hear me out, please.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04- My other part of the proposal... - Yeah?
0:51:04 > 0:51:07..is put the house into our children's name.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09I don't want anything out of this.
0:51:11 > 0:51:12Give it to the children,
0:51:12 > 0:51:16- cos that's where it's going to go at the end of the day, anyway.- OK.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19So, that's my proposal.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23Transfer the house to the children, keep all the jewellery, walk away.
0:51:25 > 0:51:29'I want what I've earned to go to my children.'
0:51:30 > 0:51:32I'm not sure Robina quite wants that.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34I don't know what she wants.
0:51:34 > 0:51:36In reality, I don't.
0:51:36 > 0:51:41If you don't agree to come to a resolution here, go to court.
0:51:41 > 0:51:45It's going to cost at least 10,000.
0:51:45 > 0:51:46And I'm not kidding you.
0:51:46 > 0:51:50And that's probably my estimation on the lower side.
0:51:52 > 0:51:54And this is free advice.
0:51:54 > 0:51:55Think about it.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59Don't let other people influence you on that.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01This is for you, this is your life.
0:52:03 > 0:52:05No-one's pushing me into anything.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07I've got a mind of my own.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09I can decide what I want.
0:52:11 > 0:52:16We were brought up, like, you worry about what the community says
0:52:16 > 0:52:18and everything, and you're not meant to do stuff like that.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20That's the way we were brought up.
0:52:20 > 0:52:24But when you sit and think about it, you think to yourself, "Well...
0:52:24 > 0:52:28"you can't be unhappy just because of the community."
0:52:28 > 0:52:33You have to be happy yourself, and you have to do what you want to do.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36Basically, they can have their jewellery
0:52:36 > 0:52:40if he gives me, like, my share of the house money.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43He doesn't want to pay me off the house, basically.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46I want my money, I'm not just having that.
0:52:46 > 0:52:47You've got more than me.
0:52:47 > 0:52:51I haven't. Where have I got more than you? Tell me where.
0:52:51 > 0:52:52OK, we'll just go to court.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55- I'd rather go to court and get it settled.- Right.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57It will cost you whatever it costs you. I don't mind.
0:52:57 > 0:53:00It doesn't matter. That's nothing. You getting more than me.
0:53:00 > 0:53:02- What am I getting, Robina? - The house.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05The house isn't mine. I'm saying to you, give to the children.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07- It doesn't matter, at the end of the day.- Why?
0:53:07 > 0:53:09You're getting more than me.
0:53:09 > 0:53:11Why doesn't it matter? How am I getting that at all?
0:53:11 > 0:53:14You get a building, you get the house. You get more than me.
0:53:17 > 0:53:19I want you to have a think.
0:53:19 > 0:53:21When passions have cooled,
0:53:21 > 0:53:23if I may suggest that you give me a ring next week.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26Wise counsel may prevail, and people may want to come back
0:53:26 > 0:53:28to see if we can get anywhere. Is that OK?
0:53:28 > 0:53:30So I'm asking, we cool down for a week, and we speak to...
0:53:30 > 0:53:33- Both give me a ring a week today. Is that fair?- That's fine.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35- That's all right. - Is that all right with you?
0:53:35 > 0:53:37- I'm prepared to go along with that. - Thanks so much.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42- Your cane is just behind you, sir. - OK.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50CLOCK TICKS
0:53:56 > 0:53:59- DAVE:- Nothing makes me happier than to send people off
0:53:59 > 0:54:01with a handshaken agreement,
0:54:01 > 0:54:04and we achieve this in about three quarters of cases.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09But the fact is, not everyone is ready to reach that final agreement.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11And that's the important thing about mediation -
0:54:11 > 0:54:15it's always the couple that decide what to do in the end.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20Matt and Jess agreed to return to mediation
0:54:20 > 0:54:22to continue the discussion
0:54:22 > 0:54:25about where their children should spend weeknights.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31No point me throwing in the towel now.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34You have to try. Um...
0:54:34 > 0:54:36And take it from there, see how it goes. Um...
0:54:38 > 0:54:41We'll just have to wait and see, really.
0:54:41 > 0:54:45I don't know. I really don't know where to go from here.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48We'll come back in another two weeks.
0:54:48 > 0:54:50And then...
0:54:50 > 0:54:52And I can see that happening all over again.
0:54:53 > 0:54:56So, I don't know.
0:54:56 > 0:54:58Feel a bit lost.
0:55:00 > 0:55:01Come on.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04A week later, Jess cancelled the planned meeting,
0:55:04 > 0:55:06and they have not returned.
0:55:11 > 0:55:16Parvez left mediation prepared to continue negotiations with Robina.
0:55:19 > 0:55:23I'm inclined to say that she said, in anger,
0:55:23 > 0:55:24"I'll see you in court"
0:55:24 > 0:55:27I'm really not sure about her at all.
0:55:29 > 0:55:30I used to know her,
0:55:30 > 0:55:32but not any more.
0:55:37 > 0:55:41He kept saying, "The house is not yours, and it's not mine.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44"It's the kids', it's their inheritance."
0:55:44 > 0:55:48But I'm still alive, I'm not dead.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51A percentage of that house belongs to me,
0:55:51 > 0:55:55so I think I should get a percentage of the money.
0:55:58 > 0:56:03Robina decided she would take her dispute with Parvez to court.
0:56:03 > 0:56:04They are waiting for a judge
0:56:04 > 0:56:07to decide what should happen to their house.
0:56:12 > 0:56:15Since Catia left for Portugal,
0:56:15 > 0:56:18Ben has been able to get back in touch with Susie.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21I am flying out on the 2nd of July to go and see her.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23I'm actually going to pick her up.
0:56:23 > 0:56:28I'm very, very excited, as you can probably imagine.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30Susie's coming for three whole weeks.
0:56:30 > 0:56:34She wants to go swimming, she wants to go to London Zoo.
0:56:34 > 0:56:39Yeah, just do all the things that we would do as if she was always here.
0:56:40 > 0:56:43I want it to be as if she'd never left.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49Yeah, so I had to leave London very suddenly,
0:56:49 > 0:56:51because I already missed one month of rent,
0:56:51 > 0:56:55and me and Susie, we were over-pressured.
0:56:55 > 0:56:57And for me to not go through the eviction
0:56:57 > 0:56:59and the problems with it afterwards,
0:56:59 > 0:57:02I preferred to risk it back in Portugal
0:57:02 > 0:57:06and go back to my family, where I have a safe house.
0:57:06 > 0:57:11I went to the court straight away, so I could make the...
0:57:11 > 0:57:15You know, an agreement between me and Ben,
0:57:15 > 0:57:18so he could have his rights, as well as mine.
0:57:20 > 0:57:22The legal agreement that Ben and Catia reached
0:57:22 > 0:57:24guarantees that Susie will spend
0:57:24 > 0:57:28at least seven weeks every year living with Ben,
0:57:28 > 0:57:31and he can visit her regularly in Portugal.
0:57:31 > 0:57:35The process of the mediation just allowed me to think a bit more
0:57:35 > 0:57:37about what would be the best for Susie.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41The agreement I've actually managed to get,
0:57:41 > 0:57:44it's much more than I expected, yeah. I never thought...
0:57:44 > 0:57:47Well, the moment she left, I thought I was never going to see her again,
0:57:47 > 0:57:52let alone be guaranteed this time every year that Catia can't stop.
0:57:55 > 0:57:58We have an agreement, everything is sorted.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01And Ben can see Susie, Susie can see Ben.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03And I think everybody's happy now.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08We've always been civil when it comes to Susie.
0:58:10 > 0:58:13We are communicating by e-mail or Skype.
0:58:14 > 0:58:17But it does become, sometimes, very much,
0:58:17 > 0:58:19"Well, this is what it said in back and white.
0:58:19 > 0:58:23"If we don't stick to it, someone's going to get in trouble."
0:58:25 > 0:58:28- # There are always two sides - Two sides, two sides, two sides
0:58:28 > 0:58:32- # To every story, yeah - Two sides, two sides, two sides
0:58:32 > 0:58:34# But two wrongs
0:58:35 > 0:58:37# Can't make it right
0:58:37 > 0:58:39# Oh-oh-ho
0:58:39 > 0:58:45# And two mistakes will only bring you heartache
0:58:45 > 0:58:48# And you both will end up
0:58:48 > 0:58:50# Losing the fight... #