0:00:02 > 0:00:04This programme contains some strong language.
0:00:04 > 0:00:05'Being a British guy in 2015 is not easy.
0:00:05 > 0:00:07'21st-century pressures are changing...'
0:00:07 > 0:00:09No way!
0:00:09 > 0:00:11'..the way we live...'
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Women are seen as superior to men.
0:00:14 > 0:00:15'..the way we love...'
0:00:15 > 0:00:18If you are a Muslim, you cannot be gay. It's as simple as that.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20'..even the way we look.'
0:00:20 > 0:00:23- Is that silicone?- Yeah. - This is mental.
0:00:23 > 0:00:24'In this series,
0:00:24 > 0:00:27'I'm travelling to the extreme edge...'
0:00:27 > 0:00:28HE YELLS
0:00:28 > 0:00:30'..of modern British masculinity.'
0:00:30 > 0:00:32I mean, what is your body going to be like at 30?
0:00:32 > 0:00:35- I'll be lucky to get there.- If you know that, then what are you doing?!
0:00:37 > 0:00:41'In an era of gay rights, marriage, even parenthood,
0:00:41 > 0:00:44'some Brits still struggle to accept homosexuality.'
0:00:44 > 0:00:48A woman and a woman, and a man and a man, I just don't believe that.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52The male, the female, even the animals, they are like this.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56'And some call being gay a decision, a bad decision.'
0:00:56 > 0:00:59I'm sorry to cut you, but you're comparing homosexuality to stealing...
0:00:59 > 0:01:02- I'm not equating it, I'm not equating it. - I know. But you're comparing.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04'But for those who feel they have no choice,
0:01:04 > 0:01:08- 'the effects can be devastating...' - He kicked my bedroom door open.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10He was like, "I want you out of my house by midnight."
0:01:10 > 0:01:12And we didn't speak for three years.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15'..leaving gay men under attack from their own community...'
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Sometimes I'll have bottles thrown at my head.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20A lot of people saying, "Oh, you batty man, go die."
0:01:20 > 0:01:22'..and even their own family.'
0:01:22 > 0:01:24My own mother said to me,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27"If you murdered someone... I'd still accept you.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30"But you being gay, I can't accept you for that."
0:01:37 > 0:01:41Gay marriage became legal in Britain in 2014, but in some black
0:01:41 > 0:01:46and Asian communities, homosexuality itself remains taboo.
0:01:47 > 0:01:52South London has the largest population of black men in the UK.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55And it's my home, so it seems like a good place to start.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00I'm going to meet a guy called Max today in his barbershop.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Now, if you've ever been to a black barber's, you will know that
0:02:04 > 0:02:10it's the best place for debate, it's the best place for shit talking.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13And talking about something like homosexuality,
0:02:13 > 0:02:17in a black barber's, for me, will stir up some real honest answers
0:02:17 > 0:02:20and potentially start a conversation that I've never had,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23or heard, in a place like this.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36- Max.- What's going on? - How are you doing?
0:02:36 > 0:02:40'Max's parents are from West Africa, just like mine.'
0:02:41 > 0:02:45What age would you say you realised you were actually a gay man?
0:02:45 > 0:02:46Um..
0:02:46 > 0:02:50To be honest, I guess deep down I always knew in the back of my mind,
0:02:50 > 0:02:55but it wasn't up until the age of 18 that I accepted it within myself.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57One day I kind of just...
0:02:57 > 0:03:00I don't know what the trigger was, I just kind of woke up
0:03:00 > 0:03:04and I was like, "Yeah, this isn't working for me. I'm gay."
0:03:04 > 0:03:07How long did it take you to go from that realisation to actually
0:03:07 > 0:03:10approaching that conversation with your father?
0:03:10 > 0:03:15Well, I... I didn't actually have that conversation with my father.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20- You didn't?- No.- Right.- One day the pastor of the church came up to me.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22She asked me if I was gay.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24And at this point in time my philosophy was, "I'm not going
0:03:24 > 0:03:28"to tell people, but if somebody asks me, I'm not going to deny it."
0:03:28 > 0:03:31And I said yeah. And then she...
0:03:32 > 0:03:34- She asked me if my dad knew.- Yeah.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37And I said I hadn't told him yet.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39And at the end of the conversation, she said to me,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41"If you don't tell him, I will."
0:03:41 > 0:03:46- So what, she went on to tell him off the back of you not taking that week to tell him?- Yeah.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48And how did he react?
0:03:49 > 0:03:51It wasn't great.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54He kicked my bedroom door open, gave me this long ten-minute lecture,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57and he was like, "I want you out of my house by midnight."
0:03:57 > 0:04:00And we didn't speak for three years.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04'Max tells me they now talk just two to three times a year.'
0:04:04 > 0:04:07- It's fair to say my father doesn't know who I am right now.- Yeah.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10Based on your experience, what would you say is most commonplace when
0:04:10 > 0:04:14it comes to West African parents, and how parents react to that news?
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Do you know what, I think a lot of...
0:04:16 > 0:04:19A lot of people from Africa
0:04:19 > 0:04:21- are very religious.- Yeah.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23And I think that's where it starts.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27Excuse me, where are you from?
0:04:29 > 0:04:31OK. And how long have you been here in the UK?
0:04:31 > 0:04:3316 years.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35OK, that's your little boy, he's getting his hair cut, right?
0:04:35 > 0:04:37What is your attitude towards homosexuality?
0:04:37 > 0:04:40For instance, if your son came out as gay, how do you think you would react?
0:05:06 > 0:05:07Excuse me. Excuse me, brother.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10It is fairly obvious what your religious beliefs are.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13But culturally, I'm really interested in your point of view.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16First of all, where are your family from? What's your background?
0:05:16 > 0:05:18- My parents are from St Lucia. - You're West Indian?- Yes.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20- Were they born there and came over?- Yes.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22- And you were born here, I take it? - I was born here.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24- And how old are you now?- I'm 30 now. - You are 30 years old.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26What are your views on homosexuality?
0:05:26 > 0:05:30You to your way, me to my way, but me...
0:05:30 > 0:05:32I don't agree with this one.
0:05:32 > 0:05:37A lot of good comes from men and women, you know, being together,
0:05:37 > 0:05:39brother, you understand?
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Not to put it like this way, but even the animals,
0:05:42 > 0:05:44they are like this.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46You understand, like, the male, the female,
0:05:46 > 0:05:48even the plants are like this.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50What would you do if your daughter actually came home
0:05:50 > 0:05:54- and told you that she was homosexual? - I mean...
0:05:54 > 0:05:59To begin with, I'd be heartbroken.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01To begin with, I'd be heartbroken, personally.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06I would have to hope maybe it's a phase, it's something...
0:06:06 > 0:06:10Does that mean that you believe that homosexuality is something
0:06:10 > 0:06:15- that a person chooses?- People are choosing to become...
0:06:15 > 0:06:17homosexual.
0:06:17 > 0:06:18What would you say to that?
0:06:18 > 0:06:21I think it's almost...
0:06:21 > 0:06:25And no offence to you, but it is probably the most ridiculous thing
0:06:25 > 0:06:28anyone can say, that someone would choose to be gay.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31If you look at the world we live in, being gay isn't...
0:06:31 > 0:06:35It's never been a good thing, it's never been something easy,
0:06:35 > 0:06:38so why would...why would anyone, at any age, wake up and say,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40"Do you know what, I want to be a homosexual,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43"so the people in the street can throw rocks at me,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46- "and so that I can be rejected by my family"?- I don't know.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48Because obviously, you could be with a woman.
0:06:48 > 0:06:49That relationship may not have worked out,
0:06:49 > 0:06:53maybe she done your head in, maybe this... You know, like,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56she was a bad woman, she oppressed you.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58She made you feel low.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02All this stuff. But there's many out here, there's many out here.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04The good one may have come after this one.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08Do you think that your versions of happiness can exist side-by-side?
0:07:09 > 0:07:13I think so. It's like if you...
0:07:13 > 0:07:16If you go to a restaurant with somebody,
0:07:16 > 0:07:20and one person wants to order pizza, but the other person wants to
0:07:20 > 0:07:23have chips, what would make one person happy is the chips.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26What would make another person happy is the pizza.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28You can sit at the same table, and we can eat.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30We can probably be in the same restaurant,
0:07:30 > 0:07:33but he will have his table there,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36and he will be, you know, doing his thing on his table there.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39And I will be on my table over there.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46I've always sort of said that the attitudes towards the LGBT
0:07:46 > 0:07:52community in the Afro-Caribbean community are massively different
0:07:52 > 0:07:54based on generation.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57In talking to Ibrahim, I realise that it's not necessarily
0:07:57 > 0:08:00the case for everyone.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04Ibrahim is only a couple years younger than me and his mind-set
0:08:04 > 0:08:08couldn't be any more different, even though he was born and raised here.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15It's hard to ignore religion in any discussion on homosexuality.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18Especially among black communities in the UK.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27Seven out of ten black Britons come from Christian homes.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31And over a quarter of all churchgoers in London are black.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34Until the age of nine, I was one of them.
0:08:34 > 0:08:39My very faint memories of going to church were Pentecostal,
0:08:39 > 0:08:43so, you know, it was lots of singing, lots of dancing.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45There were a lot of people catching the Holy Ghost.
0:08:45 > 0:08:50I'll never forget Auntie Lynne catching the Holy Ghost and breaking a chair. That was a good time.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53We are going to a Seventh-day Adventist church,
0:08:53 > 0:08:57which I've never been to before, so I don't actually know what to expect.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01Seventh-day Adventist followers believe in a literal
0:09:01 > 0:09:05interpretation of the Bible. And they practice what they preach.
0:09:05 > 0:09:09No smoking, no alcohol and no gambling.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11But does that list include being gay?
0:09:11 > 0:09:15- How are you doing? How are you doing? - I'm fine.- You all right?
0:09:15 > 0:09:18I'm here to meet Pastor Michael Mbui, is that him there?
0:09:18 > 0:09:19Is that his picture?
0:09:19 > 0:09:23- Yeah.- Ah! What's your name, sorry?- Alan.- Alan.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26Alan, nice. And what are you handing out here? You didn't give me one.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29- Oh, sorry.- Why didn't I get one, Alan?- Because you were talking to me.
0:09:29 > 0:09:30THEY LAUGH
0:09:32 > 0:09:36- Oh, there you go. Hello. Pastor Mbui?- Pastor Michael.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40- Michael Mbui, how are you doing, I'm Reggie?- Michael "booey". - Michael Mbui, how are you doing?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42- I'm very fine, thank you. - Nice to meet you.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45- Thank you for having us in your church today. I appreciate it.- Thank you.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48- When are you going to be up... - I'm not preaching today.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51Today I'm just a supervisor. The young people did the programme today.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53Right, OK.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56'Pastor Michael has a young team that he's training up.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00'The man leading today's service is Pastor Andrew.' Nice to meet you too.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03- Just out of interest, how old are you? You look...- I'm 27.- 27?- Yeah.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06And you're going to be up there running things today?
0:10:06 > 0:10:09Ah, not running things, but just giving a little humble word, man.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12So how long have you been doing this, how long have you been preaching?
0:10:12 > 0:10:15To be honest, I've been preaching since I was 16 years old.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18I left the church and I came back. You know...
0:10:18 > 0:10:20When you say you left the church, what does that mean?
0:10:20 > 0:10:23Like, in the sense where you grow up in church. And even though I came
0:10:23 > 0:10:25here one day a week, during the week
0:10:25 > 0:10:28- I was, you know, otherwise occupied with other things.- Such as?
0:10:28 > 0:10:33You know, girls, you know, money, drugs, you name it.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Living in that area in London,
0:10:35 > 0:10:39it's almost impossible not to get involved in them things.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41- OK.- We need to get the service running.- Yeah, no problem.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45- We need the preacher in here. - A preacher that can talk a lot is a good thing, surely.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48That's what you want, isn't it? Nice to meet you both.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54# Oh give thanks unto the Lord
0:10:54 > 0:10:57# For He is good
0:10:57 > 0:10:59# Yes, He is good
0:10:59 > 0:11:01# Oh give thanks
0:11:01 > 0:11:03# Unto the Lord... #
0:11:03 > 0:11:05There is quite a lot of young people here.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08There's quite a lot of people under the age of 25 here,
0:11:08 > 0:11:11and I imagine that he's probably a big part of that.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16My sermons are not... This is just me, like it or leave it,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18I'm a honest person.
0:11:18 > 0:11:23I'm breaking down the wall on seeing God, how he's presented.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27People outside, the only God they see is you.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31And if we show them that God is like this,
0:11:31 > 0:11:35"You can't do this and you can't do that." And, "Look at you,
0:11:35 > 0:11:40"you're going to hell." If we show them that that is what God is like,
0:11:40 > 0:11:42then they are not going to want... Don't miss this now.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45They are not going to want to come to the place where God is.
0:11:47 > 0:11:52And now God gets the blame for our misrepresentation of him.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55Andrew isn't what I was expecting.
0:11:55 > 0:11:57He doesn't talk like the pastors I remember
0:11:57 > 0:12:01and feels like a typical young guy from South London.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05And the theme of his sermon, tolerance and acceptance.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07Because I, Andrew Aaron Asher Fuller,
0:12:07 > 0:12:08if you didn't know my name,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11that's my name, and me, I'm being honest,
0:12:11 > 0:12:16I have fallen so far from grace many a times in my life that
0:12:16 > 0:12:18I can't come to you and look down on you.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Pastor Andrew was amazing, wasn't he?
0:12:22 > 0:12:27I don't think I've ever seen a pastor that young speak to
0:12:27 > 0:12:29a congregation this mixed.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32And he spoke to parents in a way that I've been speaking
0:12:32 > 0:12:33to my mum for years.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37And I think it really resonated with the people here.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40It's pretty much done now, the service is over,
0:12:40 > 0:12:43people are leaving and Pastor Andrew is shaking everyone's hand
0:12:43 > 0:12:47so I'm going to get my handshake and maybe have a chat with him too.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53But everyone wants to shake Andrew's hand.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58So I grab the chance to have a quick word with the head pastor over lunch.
0:12:58 > 0:12:59Hello, hello.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02I've been told to come for some lunch, what do we have today?
0:13:02 > 0:13:04This looks amazing.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Am I the first person to come up? Has no-one eaten yet?
0:13:07 > 0:13:10- It's all right.- No, no, no, I can't be that guy.- It's all right.
0:13:10 > 0:13:11Why would you send me there first?
0:13:11 > 0:13:14The whole room's hungry and you send me up there and I'm like,
0:13:14 > 0:13:16"Yeah, where's my plate?"
0:13:16 > 0:13:19- We want to have some soup first. Get some soup for us.- Got it, got it.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22If your daughter, for instance, were to come out,
0:13:22 > 0:13:25would you still have a relationship with her, do you think?
0:13:27 > 0:13:29In terms...
0:13:29 > 0:13:32I think in the home setting we have a clear understanding
0:13:32 > 0:13:33of what is acceptable.
0:13:33 > 0:13:38I may be able to point out to you, "You are my child, I love you,"
0:13:38 > 0:13:41but if they were to choose that lifestyle,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44then they wouldn't be able to live with us.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48Membership of the church is a privilege, not a right.
0:13:48 > 0:13:52When you become a member of the church, you are committing
0:13:52 > 0:13:55to a particular way of life that is informed by scripture.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00If you, along the way, choose to...
0:14:02 > 0:14:05..to lead a life different from that, you can't be part
0:14:05 > 0:14:07of an Adventist faith community.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10So far, so traditional.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15But Pastor Michael is from an older generation and moved here from Kenya.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17Maybe the younger Pastor Andrew, who was born
0:14:17 > 0:14:21and raised in London like me, thinks like I do.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24Something that gets sort of whispered about in church in my limited
0:14:24 > 0:14:27experience, and definitely talking to religious friends I have now,
0:14:27 > 0:14:28is attitudes towards sex.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30- Yeah.- And issues like homosexuality.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33- What do you believe? - So I don't believe...
0:14:33 > 0:14:34And this is saying it as blunt as possible.
0:14:34 > 0:14:39I believe we have to go to marriage. I sincerely believe, you know...
0:14:39 > 0:14:42- Heterosexual? Because gay people can get married now.- And that's my point.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45The truth of the matter is, my sincere belief is that
0:14:45 > 0:14:49when I have a woman and a woman and a man and a man, no hatred,
0:14:49 > 0:14:52no animosity but I just don't believe that.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Mother and father are vital in society.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57So it's a traditional family set-up that you believe in?
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Yeah, I strongly believe that. With all my heart, this is not half...
0:15:00 > 0:15:01I strongly believe that.
0:15:04 > 0:15:09Acceptance in this church, at least, only seems to go so far.
0:15:09 > 0:15:10The delivery might be different
0:15:10 > 0:15:14but, fundamentally, Andrew believes the same as his elders.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16Erm...
0:15:16 > 0:15:17There's almost...
0:15:17 > 0:15:19There's almost
0:15:19 > 0:15:24a slim to nought chance of you being accepted
0:15:24 > 0:15:29by the church if, when you come to a church and your pastor is cool,
0:15:29 > 0:15:32he's got this pretty edgy, crazy background,
0:15:32 > 0:15:35he's in his 20s and even he can't get past that point.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44It's estimated that one in ten people are gay in the UK.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48And 1 in 300 are transgender - the T in LGBT.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52So if it's tough being black and gay,
0:15:52 > 0:15:56I can't help wondering what it must be like to be black and trans.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00I'm on my way to Burton-on-Trent to find out.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05I've never actually met a transgender person before and I'm really
0:16:05 > 0:16:09looking forward to meeting Tallulah and hearing her story.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Because, I mean, we're not exactly in the biggest of towns
0:16:13 > 0:16:17and in the biggest of cities, which instantly throws up its own
0:16:17 > 0:16:19issues but, as well as that, the fact that she is of mixed race
0:16:19 > 0:16:22and the fact that her father is of Caribbean descent,
0:16:22 > 0:16:27I'm really keen to be educated on what her life is actually like.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34KNOCKING
0:16:34 > 0:16:37- Hello.- Hello.- Hey, how are you doing? - I'm good, thank you.
0:16:37 > 0:16:38- Tallulah, nice to meet you.- You too.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41'Tallulah's parents separated when she was three,
0:16:41 > 0:16:44'so she lives with her mum and grandma Glynis,
0:16:44 > 0:16:46'who is still coming to terms with a new granddaughter.'
0:16:46 > 0:16:48Nice to meet you, Glynis, Reggie.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52How is it having Tallulah as a house guest, then?
0:16:52 > 0:16:54Oh, he's all right. "She's all right," I should say.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57She still can't get to grips with pronouns and everything.
0:16:57 > 0:16:58I was going to say!
0:16:58 > 0:17:00It's very, very hard what you've got to do.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04- Yeah.- Just getting used to the pronouns and everything.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06..calling him, you know, Tallulah.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09It's pretty hard to ignore the fact that there is
0:17:09 > 0:17:13the entirety of your youth on this little shelf over here.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15My grandma's obsessed with me as a boy.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19There I was about 15, I think, and that was literally
0:17:19 > 0:17:23just before I came out at school, about my,
0:17:23 > 0:17:25at the time, the sexuality I was.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29- So that's them two photos. - Sexuality "was"?
0:17:29 > 0:17:31Yeah, because when I was at high school,
0:17:31 > 0:17:33I didn't really have a choice other than to come out as gay
0:17:33 > 0:17:37because there was no kind of education as to what being
0:17:37 > 0:17:39transgender was about, so nobody understood it.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42So my only option was to come out as gay because I was so feminine,
0:17:42 > 0:17:46so I had to come out as gay just so people would get off my back.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49Right, but at that point you were attracted to girls?
0:17:49 > 0:17:53No, no, no, I've always been, in my head, a straight woman
0:17:53 > 0:17:57but to everyone else at the time, because I was attracted to guys,
0:17:57 > 0:18:00everyone was just like, "Well, you must be gay."
0:18:00 > 0:18:03It was after I left school that I came out as transgender
0:18:03 > 0:18:05and started living as a woman.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08This is how I came out about being...
0:18:08 > 0:18:11- Just in a national newspaper(!) - ..my life as a woman. Yeah.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14This is it. There's me.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17It was the easiest way. I couldn't go round every single person,
0:18:17 > 0:18:19so I just thought, "I'm going to come out in the..."
0:18:19 > 0:18:23- Well, it's better than a group text, innit?- Yeah, exactly.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26All right, what tea's up? Can I get a brew on?
0:18:26 > 0:18:28A brew, yeah.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32See, this is a massive indicator of how good a host you are,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35- how good your brew is. - I think I'm quite a good host.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37- Oh, really?- Yeah. - All right.- Apparently Libras are.
0:18:37 > 0:18:39Because I'm a Libra.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43- So what were you called before? - I was called Aaron before.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45Aaron.
0:18:45 > 0:18:47Don't be shy, moment of truth. No pressure.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52I'd say 7.5/10.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54Seven and a half?
0:18:54 > 0:18:56She looks disgusted.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58I think it's a ten, it's a really good ten.
0:18:58 > 0:18:59I'll give you an eight.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02It may just be the water round here, you're not used to it.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05- Where are we headed? - To the garden.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10'Now that we're away from her nan, there's one question
0:19:10 > 0:19:12'I've been dying to ask Tallulah.'
0:19:12 > 0:19:15Not to be massively intrusive, but you say that you haven't
0:19:15 > 0:19:21had your boobs done but you seem fairly together in that area.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24- What do you do?- I'm on hormones at the minute, I'm on hormones.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26My boobs are probably about an A.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28But I wear like a C bra
0:19:28 > 0:19:32and then stuff it with these sticky chicken-fillet things.
0:19:32 > 0:19:33Right.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37- But, yeah, it gives me quite a realistic bosom, I think.- Yeah.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39So what kind of guys do you date now?
0:19:39 > 0:19:42I always end up getting with white guys
0:19:42 > 0:19:44but I always get approached more by black guys.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48They'll say to me, "Oh, I'd go there with you in, like, four years' time
0:19:48 > 0:19:50"once you've had surgery but I won't go with you now
0:19:50 > 0:19:52"cos you've got a dick."
0:19:52 > 0:19:54- That kind of thing. - Is there a big black community here?
0:19:54 > 0:19:57I wouldn't say there's a big black community in Burton
0:19:57 > 0:19:58but there is a black community
0:19:58 > 0:20:02and it's very... Quite a hard thing for them to get their head around.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04It's very taboo, isn't it?
0:20:04 > 0:20:07On the drive up here I realised just how Asian this area is.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11There's a lot of Muslims and a lot of Sikh people.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13- How do they react to you? - Not very well, to be fair.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16I do get quite a lot of death threats from the Asian community.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18How do those death threats come?
0:20:18 > 0:20:21- To your face? To the door?- Oh, yeah, to my face down the street.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24I'll be walking down the street and I'll have bottles
0:20:24 > 0:20:26thrown at my head, a lot of people saying,
0:20:26 > 0:20:28"Oh, you fucking batty man, go die."
0:20:28 > 0:20:31Literally saying everything that you could think of to try
0:20:31 > 0:20:36and get a reaction out of me. And I just don't give in.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38Why did you choose not to react to that?
0:20:38 > 0:20:41Just because I'd probably get beaten up if I did react to it.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44And I can't really afford to have my face being broken.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49I'm not totally surprised Tallulah
0:20:49 > 0:20:53has had grief from some in the local Asian community.
0:20:53 > 0:20:58Some Muslims struggle to accept gay people, let alone transsexual ones.
0:20:58 > 0:21:02Few were willing to talk about it on camera but there is one online
0:21:02 > 0:21:05and it turns out that he's gay himself.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08Homosexuality is OK and is not wrong.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11You can't change your sexuality.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13No matter what you do.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16The man in the video is Sahil Ahmed,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19a 23-year-old student from East London.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25Maybe he can shed some light on how his fellow Muslims view gay people.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30Have you always been in this bit of town? Did you grow up around here?
0:21:30 > 0:21:32No, I didn't grow up around here.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36I grew up in Waltham Forest, so I moved here like a year ago.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Basically since I moved out of my parents' house and stuff.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42- At what age did you realise you were gay?- Well, I mean...
0:21:42 > 0:21:46The age I realised I was gay was like literally last year.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Age of 22. So that's when I actually came out to myself.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52And the reason why it took so long is
0:21:52 > 0:21:57because my religion taught me that being gay is not a thing.
0:21:57 > 0:22:02I was pretty much born into actually a very kind of strict form of Islam.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06I was basically brought up believing that the West is, you know,
0:22:06 > 0:22:07the enemy, that the UK is at war with Islam.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11- Even though you were living in the UK?- Yeah, even though I was born here and I was living here.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14I was basically, like, all the non-Muslims are the enemy,
0:22:14 > 0:22:16they will destroy Islam. And I really believed that.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19At your most extreme point,
0:22:19 > 0:22:21what would your view on homosexuality have been?
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Well, my view would have been that it's disgusting, it's evil
0:22:24 > 0:22:26and what you do to gay people is that you
0:22:26 > 0:22:29throw them off a tall building and you stone them to death.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33And I also kind of believed that I deserved being gay
0:22:33 > 0:22:37as a punishment from God because I'd done something evil in my life.
0:22:37 > 0:22:38Wow.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44- All right, I'll be your basket man. - Yes, thank you.
0:22:44 > 0:22:45You get what you need.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48Sahil no longer practices his religion.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50Fridays used to be prayer day
0:22:50 > 0:22:53but today he's having friends over instead.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55- I think cookies are a good idea. - You want cookies?
0:22:55 > 0:22:57Cool, go for it, there you go.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59He's forced to keep the location of his student flat
0:22:59 > 0:23:01a secret from his family.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Coming out was just the beginning of his ordeal.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07What was it that made you decide to leave home?
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Basically, when my parents realised I was gay...
0:23:11 > 0:23:13Did they realise or did you tell them?
0:23:13 > 0:23:15The way they found out is that they...
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Using the router, they checked my internet history, erm,
0:23:19 > 0:23:23and when they checked that, "OK, he's into other guys."
0:23:23 > 0:23:25Erm...
0:23:25 > 0:23:27- Conclusively.- Yeah, conclusive.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30So then basically they called me back home. My dad basically said,
0:23:30 > 0:23:33"I know the secret that you've been keeping from us."
0:23:33 > 0:23:36That was the most dreadful, fear-inducing moment in my life.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39He's my dad but he believes that gay people should be killed,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41should be stoned to death.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43- Including his own son? - Including me, yeah.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48In the Pakistani community, there's a very strong shame factor.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50You know, there's the whole thing about honour.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53So, for example, my own mother said to me,
0:23:53 > 0:23:58"If you murdered someone, I'd still accept you, but you being gay,
0:23:58 > 0:24:00"I can't accept you for that, I can't except that."
0:24:00 > 0:24:03Was there ever a conversation about curing your homosexuality?
0:24:03 > 0:24:05Did that ever happen?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08Oh, yeah, that was actually the main reason why I ended up
0:24:08 > 0:24:09leaving the house.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12They basically said, "The only way you can stay in this house is
0:24:12 > 0:24:16"if you agree to be exorcised, to get the demons out of you."
0:24:16 > 0:24:18They were convinced that the reason why I'm gay and the reason
0:24:18 > 0:24:22why I was doubting religion was because I was possessed.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26For, like, the next two months they would recite the Koran over me,
0:24:26 > 0:24:28make me bathe in holy water.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30At one point...
0:24:30 > 0:24:32I almost took my own life in my room.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35That was when I decided, "You know what?
0:24:35 > 0:24:37"I can't stay in this house because if I stay here
0:24:37 > 0:24:39"I'm probably not going to be around for much longer."
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Sorry, they were out of champagne. So we've got orange juice.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47How does that work for you guys?
0:24:47 > 0:24:49'Sahil moved into student accommodation.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52'He hasn't spoken to his family for over a year.'
0:24:52 > 0:24:55How important has this circle of friends become to you?
0:24:55 > 0:24:58The reason why I'm here, actually alive, is because of my friends
0:24:58 > 0:25:02and if it wasn't for them, then I don't know where I'd be.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06But Sahil's past still haunts his future.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09I think sex right now is a bridge too far for me.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13I would be OK with kind of like a romantic relationship with
0:25:13 > 0:25:17another guy but having sex is something that kind of...
0:25:17 > 0:25:19I'm not sure if I'm ready to go into that.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22If I see two guys together, kissing or something,
0:25:22 > 0:25:26I'll have like this emotional kind of immediate homophobia.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28It's been so deeply indoctrinated in me
0:25:28 > 0:25:33since childhood that it's just hard for me to kind of weed that out
0:25:33 > 0:25:35and get rid of that and shake that kind of thinking off.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41I think the most surreal thing about Sahil's story is that it
0:25:41 > 0:25:43actually happened here in London.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49I'm flabbergasted that someone is having to go through an exorcism
0:25:49 > 0:25:53because their parents are disgusted by their nature,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57by the fact that they are actually a homosexual person. He's now alone.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00He no longer has a connection to his family and, you know,
0:26:00 > 0:26:03the thing that seems most painful for him
0:26:03 > 0:26:06is losing that relationship with his mother and his younger siblings.
0:26:06 > 0:26:11That's just really sad. All down to the fact that he is being himself.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the UK.
0:26:19 > 0:26:25There are now over 1.5 million Muslims under the age of 25.
0:26:25 > 0:26:29With numbers like that, it's hard to ignore the influence imams can
0:26:29 > 0:26:30have on young minds like Sahil's.
0:26:32 > 0:26:37We contacted over 200 mosques to find someone to speak with me on camera.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40In the end, only one imam agreed.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Muhammad is 29 and from Edinburgh but he's having to meet me
0:26:43 > 0:26:46independently, without the support of his mosque.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49So, Mohammed, what are your beliefs when it comes to homosexuality?
0:26:49 > 0:26:52My beliefs are the same beliefs that my religion has.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54When it comes to these issues, obviously you go back to
0:26:54 > 0:26:57the sources that you have and you try to find your answers.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59OK, what would your answer be?
0:26:59 > 0:27:01I personally believe that it is an unnatural
0:27:01 > 0:27:02manifestation of a natural desire.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06In Islam, we are told this is not something that can become a feeling.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09This is something that is unnatural and if it's something that is
0:27:09 > 0:27:11in you, then you can tackle it, you can deal with that.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14What would you say the general attitude in your mosque is
0:27:14 > 0:27:15towards homosexuality?
0:27:15 > 0:27:17Honest speaking, people don't speak about it.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19I've received some anonymous e-mails,
0:27:19 > 0:27:22they never mention their name, probably out of shyness.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25So you've had somebody at your mosque approach you about their own
0:27:25 > 0:27:27homosexual feelings? What was your reaction to that?
0:27:27 > 0:27:30If he really trusts Allah, if, in his heart, he has
0:27:30 > 0:27:33a feeling for Allah which is more stronger than any other feeling,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36then I will for sure tell him that, as a man, as a straight man,
0:27:36 > 0:27:38I personally feel that I am attracted
0:27:38 > 0:27:40to every single beautiful woman.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43I have this urge but just because of this urge, is it justified for me
0:27:43 > 0:27:46to go after every single beautiful woman that I find attractive?
0:27:46 > 0:27:48You know, the people who are kleptomaniac,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51- they have the urge to steal. - So you think it's an urge?
0:27:51 > 0:27:54I don't believe it's an urge but it's something that he can control.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57In the month of fasting, for example, especially in the UK,
0:27:57 > 0:28:00for 21 hours you're not eating and in the beginning we have struggles.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03- But at the end of the month you find it very normal.- I'm sorry to cut you
0:28:03 > 0:28:05but you're comparing something like
0:28:05 > 0:28:08- homosexuality to stealing and to... - I'm not equating it.
0:28:08 > 0:28:10I know, I know, you're comparing.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12- You're comparing... - I'm not comparing.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14..to stealing and the urge to eat.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16I'm talking about the physical things.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19So what would you do, then, if your son came home and told you,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21"Dad, I haven't been able to tell you this before
0:28:21 > 0:28:24"but I believe that I'm actually gay." How would you react to that?
0:28:24 > 0:28:27Either if he is confused, he should try and he should see that
0:28:27 > 0:28:30if he can find peace and comfort or love in a woman.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32If he can't, then I will tell him that
0:28:32 > 0:28:35the only option he has is to live a celibate life if he can.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41Scripture is one thing but real life is another.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43And...
0:28:43 > 0:28:45I think if you're living in the real world,
0:28:45 > 0:28:48you have to question some of the things that you're not only taught
0:28:48 > 0:28:51but some of the things that have been left behind for you to learn from.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53But Mohammed's views are in line with all
0:28:53 > 0:28:56major Islamic organisations in Britain.
0:28:56 > 0:29:00On these streets, some interpret those views in extreme ways.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04This shocking video of Muslim men harassing a clearly
0:29:04 > 0:29:08intimidated passer-by was shot right here in East London.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33Following this incident, three local men were sent to jail for using
0:29:33 > 0:29:36threatening language and violent behaviour.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42There are obviously some strong views within the Islamic community,
0:29:42 > 0:29:43no matter what the imam says.
0:29:46 > 0:29:51This is Whitechapel in East London, where the video was shot.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54We're making a programme for the BBC on attitudes toward homosexuality.
0:29:54 > 0:29:56Are you happy to chat about it on camera?
0:29:56 > 0:30:00- No, no, no.- Why not?- No, not on camera.- Why is that?- No, no.
0:30:00 > 0:30:01- Are you sure?- Yeah, yeah, definitely.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04It's a major sin as far as Islam is concerned.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06- But it doesn't take you out of the fold of Islam.- Mm.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09So, technically speaking, yes, you can be gay and be Muslim.
0:30:09 > 0:30:11What everyone does in their private home is up to them,
0:30:11 > 0:30:15- I'm not going to judge. - Can you be gay and Muslim?
0:30:15 > 0:30:17I don't think so because if you are following your religion,
0:30:17 > 0:30:20you need to follow everything in that religion.
0:30:20 > 0:30:22If you are a Muslim, you cannot be gay.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25If you are gay, you cannot be Muslim. It's as simple as that.
0:30:25 > 0:30:30Being Muslim, you can't be a gay or a lesbian.
0:30:30 > 0:30:34If you can't follow a very tiny rule,
0:30:34 > 0:30:37then you are not in the religion.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40Have you got a couple minutes to chat to me on camera? No?
0:30:40 > 0:30:42Mate, you got a couple minutes?
0:30:42 > 0:30:44'I've heard some signs of tolerance on the street...
0:30:44 > 0:30:46Excuse me, sir, have you got two minutes
0:30:46 > 0:30:47to just chat to me on camera? No?
0:30:47 > 0:30:51'..but the Imam's line does seem to hold true for some Muslims as
0:30:51 > 0:30:55'the rest of Britain moves towards a greater acceptance of homosexuality.'
0:30:55 > 0:31:01In 2007, less than half of the UK population backed gay marriage.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04Now 60% are in favour.
0:31:04 > 0:31:09But support remains lowest among Asian and black men.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12I don't think the reasons are just religious.
0:31:12 > 0:31:16It's really funny thinking about the relationship between music and
0:31:16 > 0:31:21culture because they sort of blur. Definitely in my experience, anyway.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25When it comes to the idea of misogyny and homophobia,
0:31:25 > 0:31:31particularly in black music, I don't know, I sort of get quite...
0:31:31 > 0:31:35I don't know, I get a little funny talking about it because, whether
0:31:35 > 0:31:40I like it or not, the music that I love definitely, in bits of my past,
0:31:40 > 0:31:45has reflected a view that makes me uncomfortable, if I'm totally honest.
0:31:45 > 0:31:50Jamaican dance hall in particular is known for its masculine image
0:31:50 > 0:31:53and, in the past, some homophobic lyrics made news.
0:31:53 > 0:31:58One of the records that comes to mind is Log On by Elephant Man
0:31:58 > 0:32:00and there's TOK, Chi Chi Man.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04These were songs that were massive when I was like 21, 22.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07When I hit play on the video and watch it here
0:32:07 > 0:32:10and now, it just makes me kind of cringe that in my early 20s
0:32:10 > 0:32:13I was singing along to lyrics like,
0:32:13 > 0:32:15"Log on and step pon chi chi man".
0:32:15 > 0:32:18# Log on and step pon chi chi man
0:32:18 > 0:32:20#Log on from yu know seh yu nuh ickie man... #
0:32:20 > 0:32:22For those who don't understand,
0:32:22 > 0:32:26chi chi man is slang for "gay person" and log on is a dance move
0:32:26 > 0:32:30and the end of the lyric is to step on that person.
0:32:34 > 0:32:36When I think of this TOK record that, again,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39was a huge hit over a decade ago,
0:32:39 > 0:32:42it has lyrics which are essentially saying that
0:32:42 > 0:32:46if you go to gay bars, if you have gay friends, we are going to
0:32:46 > 0:32:50step on you, you should be stepped on, you should be stamped out.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53You know, looking at this video now, I'd go as far as to say that
0:32:53 > 0:32:58records like this normalised homophobia and, in some cases,
0:32:58 > 0:33:00I guess, for a lot of people, it almost trivialised it.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04And if your parents think that this is OK,
0:33:04 > 0:33:06and if you're dancing to this in a club,
0:33:06 > 0:33:09why wouldn't YOU think this is OK?
0:33:11 > 0:33:15Growing up around these attitudes and these hit songs, it's not
0:33:15 > 0:33:18hard to see why so few black man come out in public.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30But Max, who I met at the barbers, has promised to show me
0:33:30 > 0:33:34where some young gay people do feel free to be themselves.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36- Max.- Hey.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38- How are you doing, man? - I'm good, and you?
0:33:38 > 0:33:39- Can we talk about the hat?- Sure.
0:33:39 > 0:33:43What's the deal with the hat? What happens when the mask comes on?
0:33:43 > 0:33:45- That remains to be seen. - Oh, wow, OK.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48And what can you tell me about a night like tonight?
0:33:48 > 0:33:50You've invited me down. What is this? Where are we?
0:33:50 > 0:33:53We are at Urban World Pride.
0:33:53 > 0:33:57Events like this are special and important for young
0:33:57 > 0:33:59gay and lesbian people that are coming out, simply
0:33:59 > 0:34:04because, when they're at home, they may not necessarily feel comfortable
0:34:04 > 0:34:06letting their family or their friends know that they are gay,
0:34:06 > 0:34:10which effectively means that they have to hide who they really are.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14But, when they come here, they can find a surrogate family
0:34:14 > 0:34:16that will accept you for who you are
0:34:16 > 0:34:18because we're all the same, you know.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23Enough talking, time to see things for myself.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27# Come, come closer tell a secret, boy
0:34:27 > 0:34:29# Dip you like a dumpling in a cup of soy
0:34:29 > 0:34:30# Man a crispy don't mean to be rough
0:34:30 > 0:34:33# But I really can't stay, nah can't get enough
0:34:33 > 0:34:34# Puff, puff, puff and I'm back to di heat
0:34:34 > 0:34:36# Loving it, living 128 beat
0:34:36 > 0:34:38# Hey, hey! #
0:34:45 > 0:34:48# If you think that you gon' knock me off the top
0:34:48 > 0:34:52# Your wife in the back seat of my brand-new foreign car
0:34:52 > 0:34:55# Don't act like you forgot... #
0:34:55 > 0:34:57It's unbelievable to witness this parallel world.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00There's guys daggering guys in there. If you know what daggering is,
0:35:00 > 0:35:02I mean, you can put that together yourselves,
0:35:02 > 0:35:04even if you don't know what it is.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07There are guys daggering guys in there.
0:35:07 > 0:35:08That doesn't happen!
0:35:08 > 0:35:12Well, clearly it does. It didn't happen in my world until today.
0:35:12 > 0:35:13I mean, there's a desi room up there.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16There is a room full of Asian men who I can't even get close to
0:35:16 > 0:35:19right now with the camera because they just don't want to be seen
0:35:19 > 0:35:22and the reason that they don't want to be on camera is fairly
0:35:22 > 0:35:23obvious - there is so much paranoia.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26I mean, we've had to come here because literally whenever
0:35:26 > 0:35:30we pull the camera out, people are running in different directions.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33JAMAICAN MUSIC PLAYS
0:35:34 > 0:35:37Then, suddenly, the music changes.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39It's Jamaican dance hall.
0:35:52 > 0:35:54I'm about to do the thing that I hate people doing to me most
0:35:54 > 0:35:58- and that's talking to you while you're mixing, sorry.- I'm used to it.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01- It's Mark, right?- Yeah, Mark. - Reggie, nice to meet you, man.
0:36:01 > 0:36:05When it comes to our parents' generation, homophobia was
0:36:05 > 0:36:08pretty much commonplace and things are changing for the better
0:36:08 > 0:36:11but there still is that weird energy towards homosexuality.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14To be really honest with you, as a fan of black music, it is
0:36:14 > 0:36:17reflected in the music. It's there, it's hard to ignore.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20And you're playing black music all night.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23How do those two worlds sort of go together?
0:36:23 > 0:36:27For me, personally, I grew up with
0:36:27 > 0:36:30reggae, bashment, dance hall
0:36:30 > 0:36:34so whether I was gay or not, it's part of my culture.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38I've grown up to this music. So take away the words, the music,
0:36:38 > 0:36:42the energy I get from the beats, I couldn't deny it.
0:36:42 > 0:36:43Do you know what I mean?
0:36:43 > 0:36:46I'm not going to let things like, "Step pon chi chi man,"
0:36:46 > 0:36:48or any of those kind of lyrics really bother me.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51I'm there to dance, I don't care what they're talking about.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53I know that certain people do have a problem with it
0:36:53 > 0:36:58but I find it's more the white community that has problems
0:36:58 > 0:37:01with the words of the bashment rather than...
0:37:01 > 0:37:03It's not just bashment and, don't get me wrong,
0:37:03 > 0:37:06hip-hop can be homophobic, dance hall can be homophobic,
0:37:06 > 0:37:09like you said, it's a culture that we've grown up with.
0:37:09 > 0:37:11- Yeah, I've grown up with that music. - Does that make it OK?
0:37:11 > 0:37:13It doesn't make it OK but there's
0:37:13 > 0:37:16a lot of things in the world that aren't necessarily OK but...
0:37:16 > 0:37:19- So you'll overlook it, you're saying? - I will overlook it.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21What do you think the reaction would be, then,
0:37:21 > 0:37:23if you played Elephant Man, Log On, in a club like this?
0:37:23 > 0:37:26- They would all start logging on. - They'd do the dance?- Yeah.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29And would they ignore the "step pon chi chi man" bit?
0:37:29 > 0:37:30Yeah, it's like...
0:37:30 > 0:37:34Sticks and stones will break your bones, that kind of situation.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39It feels like Mark is trying to reclaim these songs.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45I'm struggling to find other gay men who will speak with me on camera.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51But Nicole, a 21-year-old lesbian with a Jamaican dad, agrees.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57- Thank you for finding the time to chat to me.- That's all right.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59- Thank you for having me. - No, no, no, no, it's all good.
0:37:59 > 0:38:04So do you think it's easier to be a gay girl or a gay guy in London?
0:38:46 > 0:38:48Can you understand how, for someone like myself,
0:38:48 > 0:38:50that sounds absolutely mental?
0:38:50 > 0:38:53Because I'm sure the last thing that you want is for anyone to
0:38:53 > 0:38:54judge you or be prejudiced towards you.
0:38:54 > 0:38:56And it almost seems as though it's ingrained
0:38:56 > 0:38:58within you towards gay guys.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12'Nicole is trying to deal with her own homophobia and she won't let
0:39:12 > 0:39:16'it stop her coming to nights like this. They're just too important.'
0:39:37 > 0:39:40There is a bubble around that venue
0:39:40 > 0:39:44that people are walking into and it's safe.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46It's weird, it's a bittersweet sort of thing.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49You come out of a night like tonight feeling really positive
0:39:49 > 0:39:51that there is somewhere for young black men to go
0:39:51 > 0:39:53but, at the same time, you think,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55"Wow, there are a lot of people in 2016 who are still scared
0:39:55 > 0:39:58"to be seen being who they truly are on camera."
0:40:00 > 0:40:04But one person who isn't afraid to be out is Tallulah.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13And she's keen for me to meet her dad.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16But, first, hair.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20- I think that one there.- This one?
0:40:20 > 0:40:22- Yeah, that one.- God!
0:40:26 > 0:40:28Oh, my God.
0:40:30 > 0:40:35Look at me. Doesn't look too bad, actually, does it?
0:40:35 > 0:40:39- Spice up your life! - Yeah, Victoria Beckham.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42But it would definitely show off me Adam's apple.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45Sometimes with my wigs I get them really big and long so that
0:40:45 > 0:40:48I can kind of like disguise it from the side, do you know what I mean?
0:40:48 > 0:40:51When you are shopping in here and you do see other black women,
0:40:51 > 0:40:53how do they react to you?
0:40:53 > 0:40:55They just stare a lot, they just look a lot
0:40:55 > 0:40:58and just whisper among themselves.
0:40:58 > 0:41:00"Oh, my God, that's a man."
0:41:00 > 0:41:02"Oh, my God, really? No, it's not."
0:41:02 > 0:41:05And then they'll be like, "Yeah, look, look at her throat."
0:41:05 > 0:41:07And then they'll be like, "Listen, listen, listen,"
0:41:07 > 0:41:09and that's the kind of whispering it is.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13How far away from being who you want to be do you think you really are?
0:41:13 > 0:41:15Erm...
0:41:15 > 0:41:18I'm a long way because I've only just started my transition,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21so it's like four years on the waiting list
0:41:21 > 0:41:25unless I can get 12,500 grand together to have my vaginoplasty.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28And five grand to have my boobs and two-and-a-half grand
0:41:28 > 0:41:31to get this done, then I'm a very long way.
0:41:31 > 0:41:35Tallulah is confident no-one will be able to tell she once was
0:41:35 > 0:41:40a man when all the surgery is done, including a vaginoplasty.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42It looks so good how they do it.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46Like, it literally looks like a normal vagina and, yeah.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49But the recovery is really long. It's like six months in recovery.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52You have to sleep with a dildo inside you for six months
0:41:52 > 0:41:54as well, yeah, to stop it from healing.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57- Oh, my God.- Yeah.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59Surely there's another way of doing that.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02No, there's no other way, otherwise it's just going to heal back
0:42:02 > 0:42:04together, isn't it? Because it's man-made.
0:42:04 > 0:42:09- It's like a scar or a cut or a wound.- Long time.- But, erm...
0:42:09 > 0:42:11Some people would probably be into that.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13Yeah, at least it would be quite deep.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15REGGIE LAUGHS
0:42:15 > 0:42:17Oh, my God!
0:42:17 > 0:42:19Oh, my God.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22I'm not mature enough to have this conversation, clearly.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30Tallulah's dad Simon has flitted in and out of her life.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33He lives in nearby Derby with his new partner.
0:42:37 > 0:42:40- You all right? - How you doing?- You good?
0:42:40 > 0:42:43- Reg, yeah, nice to meet you. - Hello, you OK?
0:42:43 > 0:42:44- Simon, right?- Yes.
0:42:44 > 0:42:48- How you doing, you all right? - You OK? How are you?
0:42:48 > 0:42:50Hello, Reggie, nice to meet you.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52Simon, Tallulah was just telling me
0:42:52 > 0:42:54that you haven't seen each other in a long time.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56Long, long time.
0:42:56 > 0:42:57Looking good, isn't she?
0:42:57 > 0:43:00- Do you want to come through? - Yeah, yeah, please.
0:43:00 > 0:43:04Simon has spent the last four years behind bars.
0:43:04 > 0:43:07So did you find out when you were actually inside?
0:43:07 > 0:43:09I was sitting there reading the newspaper
0:43:09 > 0:43:11and a guy was commenting, he was like,
0:43:11 > 0:43:13"Flipping hell, look at these.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16"Looks real, who doesn't look real?" And that, yeah?
0:43:16 > 0:43:18So I was just looking and every single person was like,
0:43:18 > 0:43:20"No, she's a real woman.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23"No, he's got a bit of a chin," and whatever.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27You know what I mean? So I looked and I just went...
0:43:30 > 0:43:33"That's my kid."
0:43:33 > 0:43:36I was like, "Yeah." I was like, "That's my kid."
0:43:36 > 0:43:39I thought to myself, "I wonder if it's my fault for not being there."
0:43:39 > 0:43:41See, everyone sees it as a fault, don't they?
0:43:41 > 0:43:44- No, no, no, on my behalf. - It's the parenting gone wrong.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46I was looking at it in a way where I think to myself,
0:43:46 > 0:43:49"I wonder if that's because I wasn't around much,
0:43:49 > 0:43:52"she's grown up around her mum, April."
0:43:52 > 0:43:56- Yeah.- She's grown up around a lot of women and I think to myself,
0:43:56 > 0:43:58"Maybe if I was there more,
0:43:58 > 0:44:02"would she have wanted to be more of a masculine person?"
0:44:02 > 0:44:04- Do you still think that way now? - No, not at all.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06I'm really surprised at your reaction.
0:44:06 > 0:44:08What it is is, my parents are like old-fashioned
0:44:08 > 0:44:10Jamaican, Christian background, Christian beliefs,
0:44:10 > 0:44:14so that's the belief that I was brought up with but because
0:44:14 > 0:44:17I grew up in areas which is predominantly white,
0:44:17 > 0:44:18I was in boarding school
0:44:18 > 0:44:21and only two black people had ever been to that school ever.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23So you know how it feels to be different?
0:44:23 > 0:44:26Yeah, to be segregated and to be treated different from other
0:44:26 > 0:44:29- people, I understand that as well.- Yeah.- You know?
0:44:29 > 0:44:32It all rolls into one but that helped me understand
0:44:32 > 0:44:36why she is the way she is. At the end of the day,
0:44:36 > 0:44:39what it boils down to is how a person feels comfortable.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42And the other thing is, I mean, she's my blood, so...
0:44:42 > 0:44:45Were you surprised at your dad's reaction?
0:44:45 > 0:44:46I was because I've been judged
0:44:46 > 0:44:49so much by the black community as it was, I thought,
0:44:49 > 0:44:51"My dad's just going to be another one."
0:44:51 > 0:44:54- Simon, thank you so much for having me.- Not a problem.
0:44:54 > 0:44:55It's been a real pleasure meeting you
0:44:55 > 0:44:57and thank you for having me in your home.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59- Best of luck...- Thank you. - ..with everything.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01Hopefully get to see you again soon.
0:45:01 > 0:45:04Yeah, definitely. Come to Pride on the 12th,
0:45:04 > 0:45:06- which is in Derby. - There's a Derby Pride?- Yeah.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10- It's a date, I will see you then. - Yeah, definitely.- Lovely to see you.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12- Thanks again, all right? - Bye.- Take care.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17Tallulah's dad really surprised me today,
0:45:17 > 0:45:20given his history and their distant relationship.
0:45:20 > 0:45:24There is nothing stereotypical about Simon's views.
0:45:24 > 0:45:26I never thought he would be so accepting.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32And so I can't help
0:45:32 > 0:45:35but think about Sahil, who I met at the start of my journey.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39He, too, is still coming to terms with his sexuality
0:45:39 > 0:45:43but he's doing it alone without his mum or dad.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46So I'm inviting him to join me at Pride next week.
0:45:46 > 0:45:50Let's hope there are no Muslim anti-gay protesters there,
0:45:50 > 0:45:52as it wouldn't be the first time.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57Just doing a teeny bit of research.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00There hasn't actually been a march as part of Derby Pride
0:46:00 > 0:46:03in quite a few years because the last time a march happened
0:46:03 > 0:46:06in 2012, people were arrested.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10There were people protesting, there was hate speech,
0:46:10 > 0:46:13some actually held placards which had things written on them
0:46:13 > 0:46:17such as, "Homosexuality = freedom gone too far,"
0:46:17 > 0:46:20"Homosexuality = a crime against God,"
0:46:20 > 0:46:23and, "Islam is the ultimate truth."
0:46:23 > 0:46:26Things such as "scum" were screamed, "Gays will go to hell,"
0:46:26 > 0:46:29which just sounds ridiculous to me.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32I mean, here we go, "Gays, gays, gays, we hope you die of Aids."
0:46:32 > 0:46:35To think that grown men were actually chanting this
0:46:35 > 0:46:39and thought that it was acceptable, to me, is mind-blowing.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42This is happening in the UK
0:46:42 > 0:46:45not 30 years ago, three years ago.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49One of the Muslim protesters was successfully
0:46:49 > 0:46:51prosecuted for using abusive language.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07I'm on my way to Derby to attend my first ever Gay Pride with
0:47:07 > 0:47:10Tallulah and I really hope that Sahil shows up.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15I desperately want Sahil to come today because I think him
0:47:15 > 0:47:19being one of many, being part of the majority
0:47:19 > 0:47:23and not feeling different would be an incredible
0:47:23 > 0:47:25thing for somebody like him who's only been out a year.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28He's just not taking my calls.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31I suddenly feel like a really annoying, angry girlfriend
0:47:31 > 0:47:33chasing someone down.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36Chances are he's changed his mind about coming.
0:47:43 > 0:47:46- How's that for timing? How are you?- Hello, you OK?
0:47:46 > 0:47:48- You look great.- Thank you.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51I thought I'd make a bit of an effort,
0:47:51 > 0:47:54- with it being my hometown Pride. - Exactly.
0:47:54 > 0:47:57This will actually be my first ever Pride and I'm sort of looking around
0:47:57 > 0:48:03because I was expecting to see a little bit more sort of celebration.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06- We're not in town just yet.- Right.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08But when we get into town, you'll probably see it all more.
0:48:08 > 0:48:10Yeah.
0:48:10 > 0:48:12I think we can go that way.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16We might have to walk down here first to get down there.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19- It IS today?- No, it is. - It's definitely today?
0:48:19 > 0:48:21Yeah, well, it should be.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27- It's this way. - So this is it, we're here, right?
0:48:27 > 0:48:33Yeah, this is it, this is the tiny community in Derby.
0:48:33 > 0:48:34Right.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39This isn't what I was expecting at all.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42One thing I was expecting was to be here with Sahil
0:48:42 > 0:48:46and to see this through his fresh eyes as well.
0:48:47 > 0:48:51But he's not here. He still isn't responding and I'm starting to
0:48:51 > 0:48:55really believe he's not going to turn up today, which is a shame.
0:48:55 > 0:48:59But, at the same time, I mean, just sort of looking around,
0:48:59 > 0:49:03in a weird way, I can understand why he might not necessarily
0:49:03 > 0:49:07feel that he fits in even here because...
0:49:08 > 0:49:12I mean, it's a very white Pride, isn't it?
0:49:12 > 0:49:15And outside of myself and Tallulah,
0:49:15 > 0:49:18there's one other person of colour here.
0:49:18 > 0:49:22So definitely Tallulah is a minority within a minority
0:49:22 > 0:49:24within a minority today.
0:49:30 > 0:49:33THEY PLAY: The Final Countdown by Europe
0:49:35 > 0:49:39In Derby, almost one in five people are black or Asian,
0:49:39 > 0:49:43so if one in ten people are gay, by rights, in Derby alone,
0:49:43 > 0:49:48there should be 5,000 homosexual men and women of colour.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51- It seems like there's a lot of people stopping to watch.- Yeah, there is.
0:49:51 > 0:49:53What do you think they're thinking?
0:49:53 > 0:49:57They're probably thinking, "Wow, what colourful people."
0:49:57 > 0:50:01Although I spot many black and Asian faces in the crowds of shoppers,
0:50:01 > 0:50:04they're just here to watch, not take part.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08Until I spy just one other person of colour actually marching.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Excuse me, sorry to interrupt,
0:50:10 > 0:50:13one of the most interesting things I've found about today is how
0:50:13 > 0:50:16few Afro-Caribbean or ethnic minority people there are at Pride.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19Why do you think there's such a small number?
0:50:19 > 0:50:21Because it's literally, what? Four people?
0:50:21 > 0:50:24- Three people? - Yeah, I counted, I counted you.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26"Oh, there's another one, a fresh one!"
0:50:26 > 0:50:27What would the...
0:50:27 > 0:50:30- You're West Indian, the black side of your family?- Yeah, yeah.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33What would their attitude be towards your sexuality?
0:50:33 > 0:50:35Well, to be honest, I'm not with that part of the family but
0:50:35 > 0:50:38from experience of what I've seen I think it would be total rejection.
0:50:38 > 0:50:42- Totally.- Meanwhile, from the white side of your family...
0:50:42 > 0:50:47- They're a bit more tolerant. A lot more, in fact.- Why is that?
0:50:47 > 0:50:50I think white people are, they think they're not but they are.
0:50:50 > 0:50:54Derby Pride is now in full swing.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Derby Pride, let me hear you scream!
0:50:57 > 0:51:01And I get talking to the Asian man I spotted earlier.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04- Hello. Hey, how you doing? - All right, and you?
0:51:04 > 0:51:06- I'm Reg, what's your name?- I'm Wahid. - Wahid.
0:51:06 > 0:51:07Nice to meet you.
0:51:07 > 0:51:11OK, not to pry but I take it you are a gay man yourself?
0:51:11 > 0:51:12Are you a Muslim gay man?
0:51:12 > 0:51:14- Bisexual.- Bisexual?
0:51:14 > 0:51:18Why do you think you're the only Asian man here today?
0:51:18 > 0:51:21Because people are scared to come out.
0:51:23 > 0:51:27I mean, even I'm here because I don't care any more.
0:51:27 > 0:51:29I'm over 60,
0:51:29 > 0:51:33so I've had my life, so I don't care what people think about it.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37Maybe this is why Sahil and other black
0:51:37 > 0:51:40and Asian people have stayed away.
0:51:40 > 0:51:42Too much to lose, too much to fear.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46Whilst Derby Pride might not have been as big as I expected,
0:51:46 > 0:51:49there's also been no opposition.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53So it's almost time to leave Tallulah and prepare to head home.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55But not just yet.
0:51:55 > 0:51:56It's Sahil.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59- I thought you weren't coming! - Well, I'm here now.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01- Good to see you.- Good to see you too.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03This is the first time I've ever been to a Pride event.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06- Have you ever been to one before? - I've never been to one before.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09- This is my first time as well. - Right, what do you think?
0:52:09 > 0:52:13It's amazing, it's absolutely, like... I like the atmosphere.
0:52:13 > 0:52:18Have you ever been around this many people who are out before?
0:52:18 > 0:52:20Never, like, even most of my friends, like, my friend circle,
0:52:20 > 0:52:24most of them...they're straight.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27Just how comfortable do you feel in an environment like this?
0:52:27 > 0:52:32- I feel... I do feel very much out of place, to be honest with you.- Why?
0:52:32 > 0:52:34Because...
0:52:34 > 0:52:35I don't want people to...
0:52:35 > 0:52:38I know people will be looking at me and be like,
0:52:38 > 0:52:40"Wait, is this guy here to blow us up or...?"
0:52:40 > 0:52:43No! Do you really think people...?
0:52:43 > 0:52:45No, no, I mean, to be fair,
0:52:45 > 0:52:49I mean, how often do you see, like, a guy with a beard who looks like a
0:52:49 > 0:52:53proper Muslim, who is a Muslim, in like an LGBT Pride event?
0:52:55 > 0:52:58Like, now I'm here with you, with you guys and that's fine
0:52:58 > 0:53:03but, alone, I wouldn't stay here very long.
0:53:03 > 0:53:04All right, come on.
0:53:04 > 0:53:08Sahil is convinced everyone sees him as a Muslim first
0:53:08 > 0:53:09and a gay man second.
0:53:10 > 0:53:12But is that really true?
0:53:12 > 0:53:16# I can't hear a word you say
0:53:16 > 0:53:22# I'm talking loud not saying much... #
0:53:22 > 0:53:23Derby, come on!
0:53:24 > 0:53:25# Ricochet... #
0:53:25 > 0:53:27I don't know the words.
0:53:28 > 0:53:32# Fire away, fire away
0:53:32 > 0:53:33# You shoot me down
0:53:33 > 0:53:36# But I won't fall
0:53:36 > 0:53:39# I am titanium... #
0:53:42 > 0:53:43Come on!
0:53:43 > 0:53:48# I am titanium. #
0:53:48 > 0:53:50CHEERING
0:53:50 > 0:53:52So we're going to keep with the upbeat songs...
0:53:52 > 0:53:53Well done, man, you were good.
0:53:53 > 0:53:56- What's your name?- James.- James, nice to meet you, my name's Sahil.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59- Hello, Sahil.- You can call me Sam.
0:53:59 > 0:54:04So I've just stepped away thinking Sahil's going to follow me out, but
0:54:04 > 0:54:09he stayed in there and it looks like Sahil is having the time of his life!
0:54:11 > 0:54:13And I think he might have made some friends.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16Go on, Sahil!
0:54:16 > 0:54:18I'll nick him for one second.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21I'm just going to nick this kid for one second. Come here, you.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24You look like you're having the time of your life.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26I am, I wasn't expecting this!
0:54:26 > 0:54:28- So you look like you've made some new friends.- Yeah, I did.
0:54:28 > 0:54:30I, er, wasn't, like, kind of expecting to stay
0:54:30 > 0:54:33here very much, like, after but...
0:54:33 > 0:54:35Hang on a second, you're going to stay?
0:54:35 > 0:54:38Yeah, I wasn't planning on but now I am. Yeah, yeah.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40What, so you're going to hang back
0:54:40 > 0:54:43and you're going to have a night out in Derby?
0:54:43 > 0:54:45- Pretty much, yeah.- Look at you!
0:54:45 > 0:54:47Based on what you've told me in the past about how you feel
0:54:47 > 0:54:50and how you've reacted to gay people, being in an environment like this
0:54:50 > 0:54:53now feeling the way that you do about yourself,
0:54:53 > 0:54:56how are you reacting to men holding hands and them kissing?
0:54:56 > 0:55:01I've had this residual homophobia in me for a long time but now,
0:55:01 > 0:55:04today, here, I'm not sure if I still have it
0:55:04 > 0:55:07but it kind of hasn't reared its head.
0:55:07 > 0:55:11Listen, enjoy your night, have fun and get back in one piece, all right?
0:55:11 > 0:55:12I will!
0:55:12 > 0:55:15- I'll try, I'll try, I'll try. - Get in there, go on.- Take care.
0:55:15 > 0:55:16See you later.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21He's this close to running back.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25# Uptown funk you up... #
0:55:25 > 0:55:28To experience my first ever Pride with Sahil was awesome
0:55:28 > 0:55:33because it was his first time at a day like this and his journey
0:55:33 > 0:55:39has taken a massive, massive leap in a positive direction, I think, today.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42He really is embracing who he truly is
0:55:42 > 0:55:44and he is not suppressing it any more.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46That can't be anything but positive.
0:55:46 > 0:55:52Now, on the other hand, the negative side to today, I think, was that
0:55:52 > 0:55:57an event like this didn't really have many people that look like me there.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00To be exact, I think it was maybe four.
0:56:00 > 0:56:02It says a lot about...
0:56:02 > 0:56:06how comfortable people like me feel to be
0:56:06 > 0:56:09who they truly are publicly.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12# And I can't change
0:56:12 > 0:56:15# Even if I tried
0:56:15 > 0:56:18# Even if I wanted to. #