0:00:02 > 0:00:05Comedian Brendan O'Carroll is one of the biggest stars
0:00:05 > 0:00:08to come out of Ireland in a generation.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12He started in comedy relatively late - aged 35 - but since then
0:00:12 > 0:00:15he's built an entertainment empire out of cross-dressing
0:00:15 > 0:00:21as his comic creation - a feisty, foul mouthed Dublin matriarch.
0:00:21 > 0:00:22Any room upstairs?
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Mrs Brown started as a five minute piece on radio.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30It was just meant to be a five minute sketch, to run for a week.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33It went on to run for 480 episodes.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I wrote the stage play and then the TV came along.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40It just went crazy. Mad.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42'The show's been all over the world.'
0:00:42 > 0:00:44All right, man.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46'And now we're back in Dublin.'
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Show time!
0:00:50 > 0:00:53For one week, Mrs Brown's back in town.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Hello. It's show time!
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Oh, God, that's not easy for her. She has an overactive, um...
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Thyroid.
0:01:04 > 0:01:05Knife and fork.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07'Initially, it was me playing Mrs Brown, but
0:01:07 > 0:01:10I didn't know I was going to fall in love, and did, head over heels.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13- I'm going to my room! - Go to your room! Oh...
0:01:13 > 0:01:16'So all of a sudden now it's me and my wife. Jenny, who plays Cathy...'
0:01:16 > 0:01:18How could you beat your mother?!
0:01:18 > 0:01:22'And then before you knew it, everybody was involved in the show.
0:01:22 > 0:01:23'My other eldest son... '
0:01:23 > 0:01:24How are you, Cathy?
0:01:24 > 0:01:26'My daughter, my sister, my son-in-law
0:01:26 > 0:01:28'and my daughter-in-law...'
0:01:28 > 0:01:29I just...
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Cathy! Cathy, wait!
0:01:32 > 0:01:36'Although she can be an awful woman, she loves her family.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38'She would defend them to death.'
0:01:44 > 0:01:47'We've been away from Dublin for the last three years
0:01:47 > 0:01:50'and this week it's been an amazing reception.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53INDISTINCT CHATTER
0:01:53 > 0:01:55'People are coming over and shaking your hand.'
0:01:55 > 0:01:56Good to see you. How are you?
0:01:56 > 0:01:58THEY LAUGH
0:01:58 > 0:02:00'It's been just so warm and loving.'
0:02:00 > 0:02:02- Cheers. No, it's nice to meet you. - Well done.
0:02:02 > 0:02:07'I live in Florida now but Dublin will always be home.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11'With my own family history, I know a bit.'
0:02:11 > 0:02:13The stand-up story of the O'Carroll side
0:02:13 > 0:02:18was the murder of my grandfather in 1920, I believe it was.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21Um, and that he was shot.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24And it was for Irish freedom.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29And it was my granddad. Um, so it was a very...
0:02:29 > 0:02:32it was very...it was an exciting part of your life that you were
0:02:32 > 0:02:34able to relate to other people.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Especially other kids. You know, "You going to visit your granddad?"
0:02:37 > 0:02:39"No, he was shot."
0:02:39 > 0:02:42And it was, "Really?" "Yep."
0:02:43 > 0:02:47But you do know that family stories get embellished.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50I know little snippets here and there,
0:02:50 > 0:02:54but not enough to be able to go - this is the definitive truth.
0:02:55 > 0:03:01Honestly, if we can, I'd like to just concentrate on that night.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03What happened that night?
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Why was he shot? Who shot him?
0:03:09 > 0:03:14And if there was a purpose to it, did they achieve the purpose?
0:03:14 > 0:03:17I'd like to find out just exactly what happened that night.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Brendan is at home in Dublin with his wife Jenny and son Danny.
0:03:54 > 0:03:55That's my granddad.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59Wow! A strong looking lad, isn't he?
0:03:59 > 0:04:02- Yeah, he is. He's just this very proud...- Love the tash.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06- Is that your grandmother? - That's Annie, yeah. Annie O'Carroll.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09- There's my dad there, Gearoid. - Oh, wow!
0:04:09 > 0:04:12What age were you when you found out your granddad was murdered?
0:04:12 > 0:04:14I was told when I was a little kid,
0:04:14 > 0:04:17and I wasn't told any of the detail, but my belief always was
0:04:17 > 0:04:20that my granddad was killed by the Black and Tans.
0:04:20 > 0:04:21- British soldiers, were they?- Yeah.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25A bunch of drunken soldiers, that's the way we were told it was.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27When I went to visit him in the cemetery,
0:04:27 > 0:04:28and saw it on the gravestone -
0:04:28 > 0:04:31"Shot during the curfew." It was really stark.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33I said I'd really like to know what happened.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35And so I went looking for details of exactly what
0:04:35 > 0:04:37happened on the night and this is what I got.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39This is the article.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42This is the report from the Irish Independent on October 18th, 1920.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45- So shall I read it to you? - Mm-hmm.- OK.
0:04:45 > 0:04:46"Morning Tragedy In Dublin.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49"An appalling tragedy was enacted in a little shop,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52"Manor Street, Dublin, about 2am on Saturday.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56"The proprietor, Mr Peter O'Carroll, 56, was shot dead by armed men
0:04:56 > 0:04:59"who carried out their purpose with a noiseless weapon
0:04:59 > 0:05:02"and departed silently having accomplished it."
0:05:02 > 0:05:05- Silencer.- OK.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08"The only occupants of the house on Saturday morning
0:05:08 > 0:05:10"were Mr and Mrs O'Carroll
0:05:10 > 0:05:14"and their children Gearoid, 10, and Martha, 12."
0:05:14 > 0:05:16"The story of the shocking occurrence was
0:05:16 > 0:05:18"given by one of the victim's daughters.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22"She said, 'About 1.40 on Saturday morning, a knock came to our door,
0:05:22 > 0:05:25"'my father got up, having put on his trousers and stockings,
0:05:25 > 0:05:27"'went downstairs to admit those outside.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30"'My mother also got out of bed and looked through the window.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34"'She noticed the forms of two or three men at the door.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38"'There was a slight thud and then stillness.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41"'My mother hearing no noise, came downstairs
0:05:41 > 0:05:44"'and there the most terrible spectacle met her eyes.
0:05:44 > 0:05:48"'Her husband lying, a corpse, in a huge pool of blood.'"
0:05:51 > 0:05:56Peter O'Carroll was shot on the 16th October, 1920.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00At the time, Ireland was still part of the United Kingdom,
0:06:00 > 0:06:05but the majority of Irish people wanted an end to British Rule.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10This led to a conflict known as the Irish War of Independence
0:06:10 > 0:06:12between the forces of the British Crown
0:06:12 > 0:06:17and the recently formed Irish Republican Army - the IRA -
0:06:17 > 0:06:20who were fighting for Irish Independence.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24In the face of the Crown Forces' overwhelming military might,
0:06:24 > 0:06:27IRA soldiers used guerrilla tactics.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31Wearing plain clothes, they operated out of safe houses
0:06:31 > 0:06:34and launched sporadic attacks.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38To try to root them out, the Crown Forces frequently raided
0:06:38 > 0:06:40and ransacked private homes.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45"There have of late been several raids by the Crown Forces
0:06:45 > 0:06:47"on the premises in quest of Mr O'Carroll's sons."
0:06:47 > 0:06:50I knew they were raiding and they was looking for...
0:06:50 > 0:06:52- They were looking for the three of them.- For my uncles.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55- So these boys? - Yeah, who are in the photograph.
0:06:55 > 0:06:56They were members of the IRA.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59I'm not sure if all four were, but three of them were.
0:06:59 > 0:07:06That's Mick, that's Jim, that's Liam. That's Peadar.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09In 1920, it was a different thing to be a member of the IRA then
0:07:09 > 0:07:12than it was in the '70s or '80s.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16They were very much part of Ireland's struggle for independence.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18OK. Look at this.
0:07:18 > 0:07:20"The shop bore no trace of a struggle of any kind."
0:07:20 > 0:07:22"Not an atom in it was disturbed."
0:07:22 > 0:07:24If they were supposed to be looking for the boys,
0:07:24 > 0:07:26why wouldn't they search the house?
0:07:26 > 0:07:29The raids are usually noisy and boisterous cos they want to show...
0:07:29 > 0:07:32they kind of want to make an example of you. But in this one...
0:07:32 > 0:07:35- Seems to have been done stealthily for some reason.- Yes.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37OK. Look at this.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41"On the body of the victim was pinned a piece of paper bearing
0:07:41 > 0:07:44"the words, 'A traitor to Ireland - shot by the IRA.'
0:07:46 > 0:07:49"This infamous suggestion has caused great pain
0:07:49 > 0:07:51"to Mrs O'Carroll and her family. "
0:07:51 > 0:07:53Were you told about that when you were a kid?
0:07:53 > 0:07:54Yeah. No, we knew about it
0:07:54 > 0:07:57and it said that this man is a traitor to...
0:07:57 > 0:07:59this man is a traitor to Ireland, shot by the IRA.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01But was always just pooh-poohed.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04Because our family were a very, very Republican family.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07It would upset me a little bit thinking that he was a... but...
0:08:07 > 0:08:10- A traitor?!- Not a traitor, but... - Jeez, it would have upset me.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13- It seems to be complete shock. - Yeah...at the...at the suggestion.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19"An extraordinary thing is that no report of a shot was heard -
0:08:19 > 0:08:23"not even by Mrs O'Carroll, who was sitting in her bedroom
0:08:23 > 0:08:26"listening as intently as possible to every motion."
0:08:26 > 0:08:29How could you be in the same house as somebody,
0:08:29 > 0:08:34somebody getting shot and not hear? This is all a bit...odd.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38"Muffled shot. Silently come and go.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40"Noiselessly done to death."
0:08:40 > 0:08:45What I was told was a casual shooting, it seems to be a hit.
0:08:45 > 0:08:51It's like reading a spy story. Who would possibly assassinate him?
0:08:51 > 0:08:53And look at this.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56"The City Coroner was told by the Lord Lieutenant not to hold
0:08:56 > 0:08:57"an inquest...
0:08:57 > 0:09:00"..as a military inquiry is to be held."
0:09:00 > 0:09:02That might be something that you might be able to find out -
0:09:02 > 0:09:05what the findings of the military inquiry were.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07You'd hardly expect to find the actual name
0:09:07 > 0:09:10of the person that shot your granddad, would you?
0:09:10 > 0:09:13No. I think the chances of finding out a name are absolutely remote.
0:09:13 > 0:09:17If I can find out a group or Commanding Officer...
0:09:17 > 0:09:21- Something from the military... - A reason. A reason.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Why did they shoot you?
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Brendan is performing in the Mrs Brown live show in the evenings.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37- Hello, boys. You look busy. You look busy.- Always busy, Brendan.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38Up to our eyes.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41But he's using the days
0:09:41 > 0:09:43to investigate his grandfather's murder.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48First, he wants to know why a military inquiry was
0:09:48 > 0:09:50ordered into the killing.
0:09:50 > 0:09:56And there's a gentlemen from the UK called Charles Townshend
0:09:56 > 0:09:58who said he'd meet me here,
0:09:58 > 0:10:01and I think he may have some answers for me.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03Because I don't think he came all the way over here
0:10:03 > 0:10:05to tell me he doesn't know.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09So fingers crossed we get to the first part of the puzzle.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20- Charles. - Brendan, nice to meet you.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22- You too.- Thanks very much for coming,
0:10:22 > 0:10:23- you're very good.- Come on in.
0:10:23 > 0:10:24OK.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28Charles Townshend is Professor of International History
0:10:28 > 0:10:29at Keele University.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31OK, Charles.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36This reads - and your experience would be a lot more than mine -
0:10:36 > 0:10:38when you read through this article,
0:10:38 > 0:10:39somebody planned somewhere
0:10:39 > 0:10:42to assassinate this particular person, Peter O'Carroll,
0:10:42 > 0:10:44for either what he knew or who he was.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47This was all pre-planned. This was as assassination.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50It has the look of an assassination, yeah.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55But, Charles, the bit that is baffling me particularly is this.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58"The City Coroner has received a communique
0:10:58 > 0:11:02"from the Lord Lieutenant directing him not to hold an inquest
0:11:02 > 0:11:05"as a military inquiry is to be held."
0:11:05 > 0:11:10Now, why a military inquiry instead of a normal civil inquest?
0:11:10 > 0:11:14Well because Coroners' Inquests had been suspended, um,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17just the month before I think, under a package of emergency laws
0:11:17 > 0:11:21that the British brought in in August, 1920,
0:11:21 > 0:11:25after their legal system had practically broken down.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26And what was causing that?
0:11:26 > 0:11:29Well basically, courts couldn't function any more.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Jurors were intimidated by the IRA and wouldn't turn up.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Witnesses wouldn't talk to the police in the first place,
0:11:35 > 0:11:38or even if they did, they wouldn't attend court.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41And it was a terrific humiliation for the British.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43They decided Coroners' Inquests had to go
0:11:43 > 0:11:47and they replaced them with Military Courts of Inquiry
0:11:47 > 0:11:51which were held behind closed doors, in fact.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53- Not open to the public at all?- No.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55The British description of them was "held in private"
0:11:55 > 0:11:59but they were widely described as secret courts.
0:11:59 > 0:12:00And this is just for Ireland?
0:12:00 > 0:12:02Just for Ireland, oh, yes.
0:12:02 > 0:12:06So, if we're trying to find who killed my grandfather,
0:12:06 > 0:12:08have we any idea as to what went on?
0:12:08 > 0:12:10Well we do know that there's...
0:12:10 > 0:12:16we have a bare record of the proceedings, and it is very bare.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19- I see, here. O'Carroll, Peter.- Yep.
0:12:19 > 0:12:2192 Manor Street, Dublin.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24The date of the death was the 16th of the 10th, which we know.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Wilful murder...
0:12:26 > 0:12:28What's PU stand for?
0:12:28 > 0:12:32- That's by "persons unknown." - Persons unknown.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35And haemorrhage and shock which is the cause of the death, obviously.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39But persons unknown, so that's the end. Cause of death -
0:12:39 > 0:12:42haemorrhaging due to a bullet wound. There was a bullet wound.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46And who shot him? We don't know. Persons unknown.
0:12:46 > 0:12:47Thank you very much.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49- Next.- Yes, next case, yeah.
0:12:51 > 0:12:56Is there any record of the evidence that was given to this inquiry?
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Well, as far as we know, almost no evidence was given to the inquiry.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01In effect, it didn't take place.
0:13:01 > 0:13:07- That we can see from a response here to a parliamentary question...- Oh.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09- This is the House of Commons. - The following...
0:13:09 > 0:13:12It's in the House of Commons, the following month.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15- This is about my grandfather? - It is.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18"A military court of inquiry in lieu of inquest
0:13:18 > 0:13:20"was held in this case on the 19th October
0:13:20 > 0:13:22"and gave the following finding.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24"Peter O'Carroll, civilian,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27"died on the 16th October from a bullet wound.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30"Owing to the omission of Mrs O'Carroll,
0:13:30 > 0:13:31"wife of the deceased,
0:13:31 > 0:13:34"to obey the summons of the court to appear as a witness
0:13:34 > 0:13:36"there is no evidence forthcoming
0:13:36 > 0:13:40"to show under what circumstances the above wound was afflicted."
0:13:41 > 0:13:45She's the only witness and she wouldn't give evidence.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47Why would she refuse to give evidence
0:13:47 > 0:13:49into an inquiry into his death?
0:13:49 > 0:13:52Well, as it happens, we know why.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56She provided a remarkably full explanation of this in a letter
0:13:56 > 0:13:58she wrote to the Dublin Corporation.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01- A letter from my granny? - That's right.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05The Dublin Corporation met here in this very building two days after...
0:14:05 > 0:14:07Two days after the death.
0:14:07 > 0:14:12..to hear read out this letter there, which you can see.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15- Here? In City Hall? - In the Council Chamber, yes.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22"My Lord Mayor, ladies and gentlemen, about 1.50am
0:14:22 > 0:14:24"on Saturday the 16th, my husband, Peter O'Carroll
0:14:24 > 0:14:28"was foully and brutally murdered by members of the Army of Occupation.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31"Not content with this, they placed a label on his body
0:14:31 > 0:14:33"which maligned the living and defamed the dead."
0:14:33 > 0:14:37That'll be the note they pinned to say that he was shot by the IRA.
0:14:37 > 0:14:38Yeah.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41"Myself and members of my family have been notified to attend
0:14:41 > 0:14:43"the inquiry which is to be held today
0:14:43 > 0:14:45"by the same Army of Occupation.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47"I cannot see my way to recognise this inquiry
0:14:47 > 0:14:50"for the simple reason that it is to be conducted
0:14:50 > 0:14:52"by the murderers of my husband."
0:14:52 > 0:14:56"And I now demand that an inquest be ordered by the City Coroner.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58"I seek not vengeance.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00"I only ask for justice and truth,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03"trusting there is yet civilisation enough left
0:15:03 > 0:15:06"to have my demand granted. Annie O'Carroll."
0:15:06 > 0:15:11Way to go, Granny! Quite a political statement.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14It is. It's a refusal to recognise the British...
0:15:14 > 0:15:17- It's a Court of the Occupiers. - Yeah.- So...
0:15:18 > 0:15:24As far as the official records go, we have the mishmash of an inquiry.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26- And that's it, officially?- Yeah.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30Thank you very much, Charles.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33You've made the mystery that I thought I was going to clear up
0:15:33 > 0:15:34more mystifying!
0:15:40 > 0:15:44Yeah. That was interesting. Well, an interesting man.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47Um, but it hasn't really moved me that much forward.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51I tell you what did help, was seeing a letter from Annie, from my granny.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Granny Annie is my kind of woman.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56She's starting to sound like Mrs Brown!
0:15:56 > 0:15:59HE LAUGHS
0:15:59 > 0:16:03MRS BROWN VOICE: "I refuse to recognise the court!"
0:16:03 > 0:16:05But when Annie said that she didn't want vengeance,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08I genuinely think she meant that.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10She said she genuinely feels she wants truth and justice.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13You could see from the official record,
0:16:13 > 0:16:16she wasn't going to get that under any circumstances.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19So here we are nearly 100 years later, maybe -
0:16:19 > 0:16:22I don't know about justice - maybe I can get truth.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25We're not going to find out anything official,
0:16:25 > 0:16:29so I think at this point I've got to broaden the search.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32I think if I'm going to investigate this properly,
0:16:32 > 0:16:33I need to deal with the note.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40The note that he was shot by IRA. Why would somebody do that?
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Why would you pin a note to somebody saying,
0:16:43 > 0:16:47"This man's a traitor to Ireland"? That always bothered me.
0:16:47 > 0:16:48Always bothered me.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Throughout the War of Independence,
0:16:52 > 0:16:54spies, and those seen as traitors,
0:16:54 > 0:16:58were important to both the IRA and the Crown Forces.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01Inside information was essential,
0:17:01 > 0:17:04because it could be hard to know which side people were on.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08IRA men, dressed in plain clothes, mingled with the crowd,
0:17:08 > 0:17:12and the Crown too was using undercover intelligence officers.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16The IRA's Head of Intelligence, Michael Collins,
0:17:16 > 0:17:18had moles in the British camp.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23And the British also recruited spies and informers.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26The note left on Peter O'Carroll's body
0:17:26 > 0:17:29suggests he was involved in this murky world.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Could it be that, unknown to his family,
0:17:32 > 0:17:36he was in the pay of the British as some kind of spy?
0:17:36 > 0:17:38Historian Eamonn Gardiner
0:17:38 > 0:17:41is an expert on the situation in Dublin at the time.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46- Eamonn?- Brendan. Good to meet you.- How you doing?
0:17:46 > 0:17:48Good to meet you. So, why are we meeting here?
0:17:48 > 0:17:50What you have in 1920s Dublin is,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52you have the IRA fighting an underground war
0:17:52 > 0:17:56and sometimes it was necessary to meet in public and pass messages.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59So, this could be a good example in say on a dark, foggy evening,
0:17:59 > 0:18:02you meet, and you pass a message quickly.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05So the reason I want to talk to you, my grandfather when he was...
0:18:05 > 0:18:08when the body was found, after he was shot,
0:18:08 > 0:18:11there was a note pinned to him saying,
0:18:11 > 0:18:14"A traitor to Ireland, shot by the IRA."
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I actually have something here for you.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23"Tried, convicted and executed by IRA."
0:18:23 > 0:18:27It's a copy of a note found pinned to a body of a man who was
0:18:27 > 0:18:31executed by the IRA, for allegedly being a spy.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34So that did sometimes happen. If you look at the back.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36It's the blood.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38- That's actually a copy of the man's blood.- My God!
0:18:40 > 0:18:43So taking into account that a similar letter was pinned
0:18:43 > 0:18:45to my grandfather's body,
0:18:45 > 0:18:46would that mean that he may have been
0:18:46 > 0:18:49a spy of some sort on the British side?
0:18:49 > 0:18:50Is that what it would mean to you?
0:18:50 > 0:18:52In the case of your grandfather,
0:18:52 > 0:18:54I don't think he was executed by the IRA.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57Cos there are a number of pieces of evidence that point to the contrary.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09Even though this was an actual IRA execution note,
0:19:09 > 0:19:13the British has started to realise that they could fracture and
0:19:13 > 0:19:18instil some doubt in the IRA itself by putting out disinformation.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20Such as false notes on bodies?
0:19:20 > 0:19:24- Such as false notes on bodies. - Supposedly coming from the IRA.
0:19:24 > 0:19:25Supposedly coming from the IRA.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29So it could have been the British and Lord knows, you know,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32we would want it... I would want it to be.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34But that's not enough to definitively say
0:19:34 > 0:19:36that he wasn't killed by the IRA.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39No. On its own, this isn't definitive.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42This comes from the Irish Times and it's
0:19:42 > 0:19:45a description of the Curfew Order which required people to be indoors
0:19:45 > 0:19:46after a certain time at night -
0:19:46 > 0:19:49remain indoors until the morning time.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52It says, "Last night the Dublin streets were again patrolled
0:19:52 > 0:19:55"by detachments of military, some of whom carried crowbars.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58"At different places soldiers stood in doorways and then at other
0:19:58 > 0:20:01"points, plain clothes policemen were on duty."
0:20:01 > 0:20:03The British Forces owned the night.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07They, as the occupying power, they had the men, they had the law,
0:20:07 > 0:20:09they had the ability to project power.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12And what you had is you had a series of checkpoints throughout
0:20:12 > 0:20:15the city, stopping people and asking, "Do you have a permit?"
0:20:15 > 0:20:17If you were out after dark without a permit,
0:20:17 > 0:20:19you were instantly suspicious and you instantly stood out.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22So what you're saying to me is that it wouldn't have been
0:20:22 > 0:20:25easy for three men from the IRA to go up to a house
0:20:25 > 0:20:28and shoot somebody and then walk away without being detected?
0:20:28 > 0:20:30- Yes.- Permits can be forged.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Permits can be forged, yes, but I do have another piece of information
0:20:33 > 0:20:36for you that will hopefully put the matter to rest for you.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40This is a press cutting from the day of your grandfather's funeral.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41You see here...
0:20:41 > 0:20:45"Requiem Mass for the repose of the soul of Mr Peter O'Carroll,
0:20:45 > 0:20:48"killed in his own house on Saturday morning was celebrated in
0:20:48 > 0:20:49"Aughrim Street Church yesterday,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52"after which the funeral took place to Glasnevin.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55"The chief mourners were Mrs O'Carroll,
0:20:55 > 0:20:59"Liam, Peadar, Michael, Gearoid..." that's my dad,
0:20:59 > 0:21:04"..and Seumas, Moira and Martha..." they were his daughters.
0:21:04 > 0:21:06"Amongst other mourners were Alderman Michael Staines,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09"Dermot O'Crowley, barrister, Counsellor Nolan..."
0:21:09 > 0:21:12- Michael Staines was a well known Nationalist.- He was.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18"And representatives of Colmcille branch of the Gaelic League."
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Volunteer officers. They would be IRA themselves.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24They would be IRA themselves. This was a Nationalist funeral.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26This was a proud Nationalist funeral.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29- They wouldn't be seen dead at the funeral of a spy.- No.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31My granddad was being honoured here.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33He was. He was.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40So we haven't got a spy. We still have a body.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43- You have a murder. - And we've a murder.- And murderers.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47Well, the family story always was,
0:21:47 > 0:21:50we always believed that it was the Black and Tans.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52Now we thought it was a random killing.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Random or not, we always believed it was the Black and Tans.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Are we getting closer to the truth there?
0:21:58 > 0:22:00During the War of Independence,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03the Black and Tans were the most notorious contingent
0:22:03 > 0:22:04of the Crown Forces.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Brought in to strengthen the police force in Ireland,
0:22:07 > 0:22:11this group was mainly made up of British ex-soldiers.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14The name Black and Tans came from their mixed police
0:22:14 > 0:22:16and military uniforms.
0:22:16 > 0:22:21These new recruits soon became infamous for their brutality.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23Brendan's family has always believed
0:22:23 > 0:22:25that it was the Black and Tans who were responsible
0:22:25 > 0:22:27for killing Peter O'Carroll.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31Might have a slight misconception and it's a popular misconception.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35As it happens, the Black and Tans didn't operate in Dublin.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37But there were other supplementary security forces
0:22:37 > 0:22:39operating in Dublin at the time.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42- Like who?- The Auxiliary Division.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46While the Black and Tans were drawn from rank and file ex-soldiers,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49the Auxiliaries were mostly ex-officers -
0:22:49 > 0:22:53an elite force seen as a cut above the rest.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56Many had fought through the brutality of the Great War
0:22:56 > 0:23:00and were now bringing their experience of warfare to Ireland.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04Their mission - to take the battle to the IRA.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09- So who commanded it?- They had their own command structure.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12They were...they were responsible to themselves?
0:23:12 > 0:23:14They were largely responsible to themselves.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16The Black and Tans were hated,
0:23:16 > 0:23:20but the Auxiliaries were feared by the IRA because they were so good.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22So we could be looking at the Auxiliaries?
0:23:22 > 0:23:24That is the distinct possibility.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28Would they have had access to a silent type weapon?
0:23:28 > 0:23:30Well, hopefully I can show you about that.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42In 1920, British Army barracks were spread throughout Dublin.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46This one housed over a thousand men.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49So who would have been stationed here?
0:23:49 > 0:23:52This would have been regular Army, regular British Army.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55Today, it's part of the National Museum of Ireland.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01At the heart of the building is a heavily secured storeroom.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05Couple of steel doors here, next are the alarms inside.
0:24:06 > 0:24:11Curator Lar Joye is one of only two people with special clearance
0:24:11 > 0:24:13to access the area.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18Phew...
0:24:18 > 0:24:20Mother of God!
0:24:21 > 0:24:22The weapons held in this armoury
0:24:22 > 0:24:25would provide a good cross-section of the weapons
0:24:25 > 0:24:28that would be used in Dublin around this period
0:24:28 > 0:24:32by both the Irish Republican Army, the IRA, and the Crown Forces.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34It's these weapons we're talking about?
0:24:34 > 0:24:36No, these weapons are long weapons.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39You have rifles and pump-action shotguns.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42The weapon we're talking about is a weapon with much more finesse.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44It's a much quieter weapon.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49This is the particular pistol.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Webley & Scott.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57Such a small looking gun.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01OK, Brendan, so here we have the model, 1908, Webley & Scott,
0:25:01 > 0:25:03semi-automatic pistol.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06I think this is more than likely the type of weapon that was used
0:25:06 > 0:25:09in the murder of your grandfather, for a number of factors.
0:25:09 > 0:25:10Why do you think that?
0:25:10 > 0:25:13Well, the weapon, you see, is actually incredibly small.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15If you just look here - it has a very small calibre.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17The bullets are .32 of an inch,
0:25:17 > 0:25:20much smaller than say the normal pistol rounds at the time.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23As well as that, because of the design of the gun,
0:25:23 > 0:25:26- the ammunition used is subsonic. - Subsonic?
0:25:26 > 0:25:29That means that it doesn't create a shock wave
0:25:29 > 0:25:33when it passes through the air which reduces the noise significantly.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35This could go a long way to explaining
0:25:35 > 0:25:37why the gunshot was so quiet.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40- A thud instead of a bang.- Yes.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43How many people did the article say were present?
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Two to three. Let's say three.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48So three or four bodies around,
0:25:48 > 0:25:51with the bullet entering almost directly into the person's head.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53The gunshot would have been muffled.
0:25:53 > 0:25:56Which is what it describes in there, in the newspaper.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58- It does.- A muffled gunshot.- Mm-hmm. - OK. Now, the obvious question.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Would the Auxiliaries have had the access to this?
0:26:01 > 0:26:03The Auxiliaries would have had access to this weapon, yes.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05But listen to this...
0:26:07 > 0:26:10"He lay face downwards, and when turned over, a huge bullet
0:26:10 > 0:26:12"wound was discovered in his left temple but with a swelling at
0:26:12 > 0:26:15"the right side, as if the bullet had not passed through."
0:26:15 > 0:26:17If the bullet was a fragmenting bullet
0:26:17 > 0:26:21- or a dum-dum bullet as they're more commonly known...- I know. Yeah.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24..and that bullet enters somebody, turns into shrapnel, that will
0:26:24 > 0:26:26not normally produce an exit wound.
0:26:26 > 0:26:31- I presume dum-dums weren't standard issue?- No. No.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Dum-dum rounds were frowned upon significantly but there's
0:26:34 > 0:26:38evidence that some of the Auxiliaries were using such rounds.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41Now I believe if we look at the nature of the killing,
0:26:41 > 0:26:43the nature of the weapon and the type of operation and the type
0:26:43 > 0:26:46of person who would have been able to plan such an operation,
0:26:46 > 0:26:49there's the possibility that the weapon could be linked
0:26:49 > 0:26:50to a counterintelligence raid.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53Now we know that the Auxiliaries had an intelligence unit.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56They had their own intelligence units within their company.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58- Counterintelligence. - Counterintelligence.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01- Which, by its very nature, is secret.- Yes.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04The records we have on the Auxiliaries' intelligence unit
0:27:04 > 0:27:06are speculative. There's nobody listed.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19What I'm finding out piece by piece by piece,
0:27:19 > 0:27:21some of it is very, very enlightening
0:27:21 > 0:27:23and some of it's baffling.
0:27:23 > 0:27:28Thanks to the discovery of the gun, the modus operandi,
0:27:28 > 0:27:31the fact that it was clinical - I think we're, we're down to...
0:27:31 > 0:27:35we're down to professional killers.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46INDISTINCT CONVERSATION
0:27:46 > 0:27:49Your granddad was a traitor. THEY LAUGH
0:27:49 > 0:27:52Brendan has been telling his family, including younger son Eric,
0:27:52 > 0:27:53what he's discovered so far.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56- Are you listening to this, Eric, yeah?- Yeah, I'm good.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58I'm talking about my grandfather's death!
0:27:58 > 0:27:59THEY LAUGH
0:27:59 > 0:28:02For God's sake, show a shred of human decency.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Da, when you seen the gun, what was it like?
0:28:04 > 0:28:08- Actually holding it in your hand? How did you feel?- Um...
0:28:08 > 0:28:12This is going to sound silly, I felt dirty. I felt horrible and dirty.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15It's dreadful that a tiny little package like that...
0:28:15 > 0:28:17Changed your whole family.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20So you say there was intelligence, counterintelligence.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22Were you surprised?
0:28:22 > 0:28:23Yeah, well, first of all,
0:28:23 > 0:28:26I didn't think there was that kind of group within the Auxiliaries
0:28:26 > 0:28:28or within the Black and Tans.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30And I'd be doubly surprised to find
0:28:30 > 0:28:32if they had any interest in my grandfather.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35If they had any interest in my grandfather, I'd love to know why.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37What had he done?
0:28:37 > 0:28:40Or what was he about to do or what was he involved in?
0:28:40 > 0:28:43Because he wasn't arrested, he wasn't beaten up.
0:28:43 > 0:28:44He was executed.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48I still don't know why there wasn't a struggle for him to...
0:28:48 > 0:28:50That baffles me. Why wouldn't he fight?
0:28:50 > 0:28:52If someone put a gun to your head and you're going,
0:28:52 > 0:28:55"This is it, I'm going to die," would you just take it?
0:28:55 > 0:28:57But there's three other lads. You have no chance.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59- I'd still put up a struggle. - Who's to say
0:28:59 > 0:29:00what you'd do in this situation.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03- I don't think you'd know what you'd do...- I know exactly...
0:29:03 > 0:29:06If there's a gun pointing at you and you're looking down a barrel.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09I'd try and get the gun. I'd hit somebody before...
0:29:09 > 0:29:11- Nobody actually knows what they would do.- Hey!
0:29:11 > 0:29:14There's a good reason I'm not bringing any of yous
0:29:14 > 0:29:16on this journey. THEY LAUGH
0:29:16 > 0:29:19So, what's the next step?
0:29:19 > 0:29:22I think I have to revisit the scene of the crime.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24I'll have to go back to my granddad's house.
0:29:24 > 0:29:25- Manor Street?- Yeah.
0:29:25 > 0:29:29It's no longer a hardware store that my dad had. It's now a...
0:29:29 > 0:29:32- It's called Sexy Nails. - Oh, lovely!- So...
0:29:32 > 0:29:35Well, I can do a little bit of investigating here and go,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38"A manicure, thank you very much, French polish if you don't mind.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41"Ooh, look, is that a fingerprint?"
0:29:41 > 0:29:43INDISTINCT CONVERSATION
0:29:46 > 0:29:49In 1920, Manor Street in Stoneybatter,
0:29:49 > 0:29:53near Dublin City Centre, was a staunchly Republican area -
0:29:53 > 0:29:58fertile recruiting ground for young men like Brendan's uncles who
0:29:58 > 0:30:01became volunteer soldiers in the Irish Republican Army.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06It was here Peter O'Carroll had his hardware shop.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17- Hello, how are you?- Hello. - What's your name?- Anna.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19Hiya, Anna, nice to meet you.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21- And this is my niece Kelly. - Hello, Kelly. How are you?
0:30:21 > 0:30:24So, um, it's going to sound, um, weird,
0:30:24 > 0:30:26but my granddad I think was shot in this shop.
0:30:26 > 0:30:29I'm trying to work out the configuration of the shop,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32so according to this, he came down the stairs here.
0:30:34 > 0:30:38This was the shop, the main shop, and it was packed with stuff.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40Many people... This was a shop when your grandfather was here?
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Yeah. Kind of a hardware shop.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47See here, in the newspaper article - 12ft to 14ft.
0:30:47 > 0:30:52- It was really small.- Tiny. And the whole area was covered in stock.
0:30:52 > 0:30:56The door opened from the right. So they'd have come in...
0:30:56 > 0:30:59And they said it nearly touched the counter.
0:30:59 > 0:31:04So the counter was here, the kitchenette was there...
0:31:06 > 0:31:09..and they shot him in the left temple.
0:31:09 > 0:31:10So if he's walking...
0:31:11 > 0:31:15..they backed him in, he walked backwards this way,
0:31:15 > 0:31:18towards the kitchen from the door,
0:31:20 > 0:31:26and then the shooting took place - in the left temple.
0:31:26 > 0:31:30If you have a counter and you've all stock, if they didn't put him
0:31:30 > 0:31:33in here, he'd nowhere, he'd nowhere to go, it was...
0:31:35 > 0:31:37There wouldn't have been enough room for a struggle.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40No, it would have been easy. I mean, you were shooting fish in a barrel.
0:31:40 > 0:31:44- Would have been easy to hold him down.- Mm, it would have been.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48According to this, my granny,
0:31:48 > 0:31:51believing that those who killed her husband were
0:31:51 > 0:31:54still about the place, she betook herself to prayer in her bedroom.
0:31:54 > 0:31:57The room she was in was immediately over the shop.
0:32:19 > 0:32:24So, according to the statement given by one of the older girls,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27she says, "My father got up and having put on his trousers
0:32:27 > 0:32:33"and stockings, went downstairs to admit those outside."
0:32:33 > 0:32:36So he's gone down the stairs, he has his trousers and stockings,
0:32:36 > 0:32:40we know he was carrying his boots, but this bit here,
0:32:40 > 0:32:45"My mother also got out of bed and looked through the window."
0:32:45 > 0:32:48And this is the window that's over the doorway.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50So she would have looked out here.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55And it says into a "densely dark night."
0:32:55 > 0:33:00And yet she still was able to make out the forms of two or three men.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06"After this, all appeared absolutely quiet."
0:33:10 > 0:33:11See, this is...
0:33:13 > 0:33:17"Except for a slight movement of persons walking in the shop floor.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20"There was a slight thud and then stillness."
0:33:22 > 0:33:25I'm above the shop now and I can hear
0:33:25 > 0:33:27everything that's going on down there.
0:33:27 > 0:33:28I can hear people talking.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30I can hear doors opening and closing.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32I can hear footsteps even from outside the door.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35Yet she didn't hear anything. No struggle.
0:33:37 > 0:33:38It's kind of...
0:33:38 > 0:33:42it...it sounds to me, and I'm not CSI Dublin,
0:33:42 > 0:33:46but it sounds to me like he opened the door expecting it to be a raid.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49He opened the door and when he opened the door they immediately
0:33:49 > 0:33:52walked in, put him on the ground, boom, shot him and left.
0:33:52 > 0:33:53So there was no time for him
0:33:53 > 0:33:56to even think about what was going on or react. I hope.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00I hope it was quick.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09I think about my granny getting out of bed like...
0:34:12 > 0:34:16And watching him disappear through the door with his boots in his hand.
0:34:19 > 0:34:20And not for a moment thinking that
0:34:20 > 0:34:23that'll be the last time she'd see him alive.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28Good God!
0:34:46 > 0:34:49How are you, Joe? Good to see you, mate. Always...
0:34:49 > 0:34:52- All right, pal.- Good to see you, how are you? How are you?
0:34:52 > 0:34:54How are you, Brendan?
0:34:54 > 0:34:57- Long time no see, how are you? - Give us a pint of, er, lager shandy.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00Although Brendan now thinks an intelligence unit within
0:35:00 > 0:35:02the Auxiliaries could have been
0:35:02 > 0:35:04responsible for his grandfather's killing,
0:35:04 > 0:35:08he still doesn't have a motive or any leads on individual officers.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11- There it is.- Thanks very much. Thanks a lot, pal.- Thank you.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Interestingly, and I skipped over this,
0:35:16 > 0:35:18there's something that might help me here.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20Let me read for a second.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23"The proprietor, Mr Peter O'Carroll, an invalid, was shot dead
0:35:23 > 0:35:27"by armed men who carried out their purpose with a noiseless weapon
0:35:27 > 0:35:30"and departed silently having accomplished it."
0:35:30 > 0:35:32Now they make a point of saying,
0:35:32 > 0:35:36"This aspect of the crime, which is the noiseless weapon,
0:35:36 > 0:35:38"and is silent, in and out.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41"This aspect of the crime bears a striking resemblance
0:35:41 > 0:35:43"to the recent hotel tragedy
0:35:43 > 0:35:47"where it will be remembered there was a concurrence of testimony
0:35:47 > 0:35:50"that no noise of shots was heard
0:35:50 > 0:35:54"even by the occupants in adjoining rooms."
0:35:54 > 0:35:57What exactly is the hotel tragedy?
0:35:59 > 0:36:03They're referring to my granddad's murder as a morning tragedy.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07So a hotel tragedy could be hotel murder.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09Maybe they found out who did that.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13And that could be the group that murdered my grandfather.
0:36:13 > 0:36:18So I've got to find out what tragedy, what hotel and
0:36:18 > 0:36:21why was that carried out?
0:36:24 > 0:36:28The plot thickens. This is like a movie.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38To try and track down a reference to the hotel tragedy,
0:36:38 > 0:36:41Brendan has come to the National Library of Ireland.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49I'm starting on October 18th,
0:36:49 > 0:36:51that's the date that the newspaper carried
0:36:51 > 0:36:54the details of my granddad's killing.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57So I'm going to work back from that. So let's have a look.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02Hold on a second.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06"Dublin street tragedy. Further scenes of terrorism.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09"Divine services interrupted. A priest fired at." Nope.
0:37:12 > 0:37:1615th, three days earlier, still nothing.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19"Another tragedy in County Clare." No.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26Go on to the 12th. Still nothing.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31I don't know if it's going to be a front page headline,
0:37:31 > 0:37:33but I presume it would be.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37"Two more shooting tragedies.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41"Tipperary youth killed." These were dangerous times.
0:37:41 > 0:37:43We're going back to September.
0:37:46 > 0:37:4927th, I'm back as far as and I've seen nothing.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54It's coming down to three weeks before the death,
0:37:54 > 0:37:56I'm starting to wonder is it here at all.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06Oh!
0:38:06 > 0:38:09Have it. I have it.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11"Appalling tragedy in Dublin hotel.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14"A county councillor killed in dead of night."
0:38:14 > 0:38:17I'm going to have to enlarge this now, adjust it, see if I can...
0:38:17 > 0:38:19It's very faint, just let me...
0:38:21 > 0:38:24"A shocking tragedy was enacted shortly after 3am
0:38:24 > 0:38:27"yesterday in the Exchange Hotel, Dublin.
0:38:27 > 0:38:28"Mr JA Lynch, county councillor,
0:38:28 > 0:38:31"was shot dead in his bedroom by military,
0:38:31 > 0:38:34"who, it is officially declared, went to arrest him."
0:38:37 > 0:38:42"No sound was heard, not even by the occupants of the adjoining rooms."
0:38:42 > 0:38:43That sounds familiar.
0:38:44 > 0:38:49"Mr Lynch was shot through the head, dying instantaneously."
0:38:49 > 0:38:51There's a statement here from the occupants
0:38:51 > 0:38:54on either side of the room in which Mr Lynch was killed,
0:38:54 > 0:38:58and of the rooms on the opposite side of the corridor.
0:38:58 > 0:39:01They state that they heard no shots, no noises.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05It looks like exactly the same style of killing.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09The silent gun, the hour of the morning, that it was, you know,
0:39:09 > 0:39:11single bullet at the back of the head.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14It's an execution style. Literally shot where they were.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16Exactly the same as my granddad.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20Whoever these people are, they're a law unto themselves.
0:39:20 > 0:39:24They don't worry about breaking any rules cos they make the rules.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28You get the feeling reading the, um,
0:39:28 > 0:39:32reading the article that was written about my granddad...
0:39:32 > 0:39:35that the journalist who wrote it,
0:39:35 > 0:39:37by drawing attention to the similarities,
0:39:37 > 0:39:40was trying to say it was the same people that
0:39:40 > 0:39:44killed Lynch in the Exchange Hotel, but couldn't say that.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46Censorship was the order of the day.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50So maybe if I can find out who killed Lynch it will bring me
0:39:50 > 0:39:54closer to finding out who killed my grandfather.
0:39:56 > 0:40:00But I can't do it on my own. Oh, I need help.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13So I'm going to meet Ian Kennelly.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17He's an expert on the censor...well, he'd know more about the censorship
0:40:17 > 0:40:20at that time and what the press was actually doing at that time
0:40:20 > 0:40:23than I would, and hopefully he might be able to help me somewhere...
0:40:23 > 0:40:25I think that's him there now.
0:40:25 > 0:40:26- Ian.- Brendan, how are you? - How you doing?
0:40:26 > 0:40:29- Thanks for meeting me, appreciate it.- Pleased to meet you.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31Where do you want to have a cup of coffee?
0:40:31 > 0:40:34First of all, I thought I'd bring you just to this spot
0:40:34 > 0:40:35so you might look up there
0:40:35 > 0:40:38and see something you might have already encountered in your journey.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42The Royal Exchange Hotel. Good grief.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46- This is where the Lynch murder took place.- Mm-hmm. Right inside there.
0:40:46 > 0:40:51- It's not a hotel any more but that's where he met his demise.- My God!
0:40:51 > 0:40:52So let's talk.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55I think we should get out of the busy street into this cafe and talk.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58Yes, let's do that. Thank, Ian, thanks very much.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02Now you'd know about censorship at that time
0:41:02 > 0:41:04and you've read the article about my granddad.
0:41:04 > 0:41:08And the journalist, where he says here the similarity between
0:41:08 > 0:41:12the killing of Lynch in the Exchange Hotel across the road, is he trying
0:41:12 > 0:41:16to say something more here, but is watching what he's saying?
0:41:16 > 0:41:18- Is he trying to say that there's a connection?- Yeah.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20He uses in that the phrase "striking resemblance"
0:41:20 > 0:41:23and it's widely known that the Auxiliaries,
0:41:23 > 0:41:26or the Crown Forces let's say, were involved in that killing of Lynch.
0:41:26 > 0:41:30So by saying that he's saying without explicitly saying that
0:41:30 > 0:41:33I reckon it's the same, it's the same situation with Peter O'Carroll.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36Yeah, but is he saying he reckons, is he guessing or does he know more?
0:41:36 > 0:41:39Well he is...he probably knows more.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42Now this is September/October, 1920.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46In August, 1920, there was a counter-insurgency legislation
0:41:46 > 0:41:48called Restoration of Order in Ireland Act.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51That meant newspapers couldn't print any report, even if
0:41:51 > 0:41:53it was true, that was deemed to cause "disaffection"
0:41:53 > 0:41:57was the word they used, to His Majesty or His Majesty's Forces.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59- We will tell you what you can put in the paper?- Yeah.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02There was, say, intimidation against newspapers.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04Newspapers were closed down,
0:42:04 > 0:42:07they were firebombed by Auxiliaries on a number of occasions.
0:42:07 > 0:42:08Now there were IRA attacks
0:42:08 > 0:42:11but actually the Crown Forces were involved
0:42:11 > 0:42:13in most of the violence against newspapers,
0:42:13 > 0:42:16and journalists are afraid to say what they really know,
0:42:16 > 0:42:19so they often used euphemisms and hints.
0:42:19 > 0:42:21I think the journalist is clearly making
0:42:21 > 0:42:24a link between Peter O'Carroll's death and Lynch's death.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27And if it's the same type of killing, it may well be the same
0:42:27 > 0:42:30person or the same group of people who are involved.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33So, if he's saying that it could be the same people...
0:42:35 > 0:42:38..did they ever discover who it was that killed Lynch?
0:42:38 > 0:42:41There are sources that name individuals within
0:42:41 > 0:42:44the British Intelligence network who were involved in assassinations.
0:42:44 > 0:42:48And I actually have one document here from a Republican that names -
0:42:48 > 0:42:49I'm not saying it's the individual
0:42:49 > 0:42:51who was involved in Peter O'Carroll's death -
0:42:51 > 0:42:54- but names individuals who were involved in shooting Lynch.- Really?
0:42:54 > 0:42:57And it may lead you on to something else.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59So he's talking about Lynch's killers?
0:42:59 > 0:43:02Yeah, what he knows, what he had heard about Lynch's killing.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05"I was horrified to read in the press that Mr Lynch had been
0:43:05 > 0:43:07"murdered that night in his bed.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09"It appears that about 2am
0:43:09 > 0:43:11"a party of English officers and RIC men
0:43:11 > 0:43:14"knocked at the hotel door, they demanded the number of Lynch's room
0:43:14 > 0:43:16"and having got it, went upstairs.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20"After a short while they came downstairs and departed.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22"They had shot Lynch as he lay in his bed.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25"Collins, with his wonderfully organised intelligence system..."
0:43:25 > 0:43:26That's Michael Collins?
0:43:26 > 0:43:29Yeah, and Director of Intelligence for the IRA.
0:43:29 > 0:43:31"..right in the enemy's heart,
0:43:31 > 0:43:34"soon discovered who poor Lynch's murderers were.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40"One of them was an Englishman who lodged in a house in Mount Street...
0:43:42 > 0:43:44"..under the name of MacMahon.
0:43:45 > 0:43:50"His real name was Angliss, and he had lately come across from England
0:43:50 > 0:43:54"with several others to do intelligence and murder work."
0:43:54 > 0:43:56That statement is accurate.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59He had come over as part of a small group to do this intelligence work.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02These men, they came over for intelligence and murder?
0:44:02 > 0:44:05Oh, yes. The intelligence was the first part and then they'd act
0:44:05 > 0:44:09on that intelligence by assassinating people.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11So let me do amateur detective here for a second.
0:44:11 > 0:44:17He's sure that MacMahon/Angliss was in the Royal Exchange Hotel
0:44:17 > 0:44:19at Lynch's murder.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23If the same style of weapon was used,
0:44:23 > 0:44:26if the same modus operandi was used,
0:44:26 > 0:44:29if the same way of using the weapon was used,
0:44:29 > 0:44:32I don't think it's unreasonable of me
0:44:32 > 0:44:36to think that the same people were there when my granddad was shot.
0:44:36 > 0:44:38I don't think that's unreasonable at all.
0:44:38 > 0:44:42We know that there was a small group of intelligence operatives working
0:44:42 > 0:44:45in the city at this stage and they're travelling about
0:44:45 > 0:44:47trying to build up intelligence on people
0:44:47 > 0:44:51and acting upon that intelligence by assassinating them.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54So I need to find out more about MacMahon/Angliss and his cohorts.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02You know, I've resigned myself to...
0:45:02 > 0:45:07if I could just find out the group that were responsible,
0:45:07 > 0:45:10but it's starting to narrow down to maybe individuals.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14I think I might get this down to two or three people who could be
0:45:14 > 0:45:18responsible for the... for the murder of my grandfather.
0:45:18 > 0:45:21And that's a lot more than I hoped for when I started this.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25It's a long time ago and I don't want to be accusing anybody but
0:45:25 > 0:45:26I'm too far down the road now
0:45:26 > 0:45:29to not follow this through as far as I can.
0:45:44 > 0:45:49In 1920, Dublin Castle was the centre point of British rule
0:45:49 > 0:45:52in Ireland - as it had been for centuries.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55The British Intelligence officers were based here.
0:45:57 > 0:46:01Brendan is hoping historian Dr William Sheehan will be able
0:46:01 > 0:46:04to tell him more about this group.
0:46:04 > 0:46:05Brendan, nice to meet you.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08William, thanks very much for this, I really appreciate it.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11This was the headquarters of British Military Intelligence of the time?
0:46:11 > 0:46:13Yes. This would have been their base.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15In fact, it's just over there, it's that part of the castle.
0:46:15 > 0:46:17- Shall we go over?- Yeah, please.
0:46:21 > 0:46:26The name I have is this man MacMahon/Angliss.
0:46:26 > 0:46:27Am I on the wrong track?
0:46:27 > 0:46:29Well, you're certainly on the right track
0:46:29 > 0:46:33because Angliss would have been part of this group of officers.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35- But can I show you this witness statement?- Yeah, please do.
0:46:35 > 0:46:36- Um...- What is this?
0:46:36 > 0:46:39Are you familiar with the witness statements? OK.
0:46:39 > 0:46:43The witness statements were taken in the 1950s by the Irish Army
0:46:43 > 0:46:48to get the memories of the IRA participants in the conflict,
0:46:48 > 0:46:49get their stories.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52And so they've been very valuable to historians
0:46:52 > 0:46:54but it'll be very valuable to you.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58- This is a statement by David Neligan...- David Neligan.
0:46:58 > 0:47:02Neligan was working here in Dublin Castle for the British,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05but his primary loyalty was to Michael Collins and the IRA,
0:47:05 > 0:47:09and he was able to feed information on British operations
0:47:09 > 0:47:12and British personnel to Collins.
0:47:12 > 0:47:15So this is actually Neligan's testimony
0:47:15 > 0:47:19- on the events of that autumn. - In 1920?- In 1920.
0:47:19 > 0:47:24So this is the page which is, I think, relevant to you.
0:47:24 > 0:47:25It starts here.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30"The British Secret Service was active in Dublin about this time.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33"A man named Lynch from East Limerick had come to Dublin with
0:47:33 > 0:47:37"a large sum of money which he turned over to Michael Collins.
0:47:37 > 0:47:41"He stayed at the Exchange Hotel quite close to the Castle."
0:47:41 > 0:47:43- I was there yesterday, it's 100 yards away.- Yeah.
0:47:43 > 0:47:47"But several men in civilian clothes called to the hotel one night
0:47:47 > 0:47:49"and shot the Limerick man dead.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52"Collins was most anxious to have the assassins identified
0:47:52 > 0:47:54"and I was told to get busy.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59"I visited College Police Station where I found a friend on duty.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02"He allowed me to look through the Occurrence Book.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05"In it was a copy of a phone message from a certain
0:48:05 > 0:48:07"British military officer stating that he and others
0:48:07 > 0:48:10"had gone to arrest a Sinn Feiner at the hotel.
0:48:10 > 0:48:14"That he had fired at him and that they had replied, killing him.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17"The same British officer figured in another murder...
0:48:18 > 0:48:21"..a fact I knew from a description of him
0:48:21 > 0:48:25"given to volunteers by the Carroll family."
0:48:25 > 0:48:28- That's...- That's your family, yeah.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31"An old man name O'Carroll kept a locksmith shop in Stoneybatter,
0:48:31 > 0:48:34"a working-class quarter of the city.
0:48:34 > 0:48:36"He had two sons, active volunteers."
0:48:36 > 0:48:38That would be Liam and Michael.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40"O'Carroll had a visit from a British Army officer
0:48:40 > 0:48:42"who warned him that if his sons
0:48:42 > 0:48:45"did not surrender at the Castle before a given date...
0:48:45 > 0:48:46"he would be shot.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51"O'Carroll was found shot dead in his shop later.
0:48:53 > 0:48:57"On his body was pinned a card - 'Spies beware.'"
0:48:57 > 0:48:59Was close.
0:48:59 > 0:49:03"Tobin brought me a slip of paper and on it was written, in Collins'
0:49:03 > 0:49:06"writing, 'Concentrate on Hardy.'
0:49:07 > 0:49:10"That was the name of the killer.
0:49:13 > 0:49:17"MacNamara and myself knew this man well,
0:49:17 > 0:49:21"he was an Orangeman with an artificial leg,
0:49:21 > 0:49:23"on the Castle garrison
0:49:23 > 0:49:27"and was an intelligence officer in the Auxiliaries,
0:49:27 > 0:49:29"and a very hostile killer."
0:49:31 > 0:49:33HE SIGHS
0:49:38 > 0:49:39Hardy.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44This is the man who killed my grandfather.
0:49:44 > 0:49:49Yeah. What we have here is Neligan pinpointing Hardy as the shooter.
0:49:49 > 0:49:53And possibly the same man who killed Lynch as well.
0:49:54 > 0:49:56Oh, Jesus!
0:49:59 > 0:50:03So my grandfather was killed because his sons wouldn't surrender?
0:50:03 > 0:50:06That's basically it, yes.
0:50:09 > 0:50:11I'm not...I'm not a dreamer.
0:50:11 > 0:50:13My granddad would have been one of the enemy
0:50:13 > 0:50:17but it's just coming home so callously real.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20I mean, it puts your grandfather in an impossible position.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22- Yeah.- What's he going to do?
0:50:22 > 0:50:25- He can't hand over his sons. - I would hope not.- Yeah, yeah.
0:50:30 > 0:50:34We look at it and we think, you know, how do these officers,
0:50:34 > 0:50:36these agents of the state,
0:50:36 > 0:50:39people who should be accountable to the courts,
0:50:39 > 0:50:42who should be accountable to, you know, someone,
0:50:42 > 0:50:46how do they go about and do something like this?
0:50:46 > 0:50:50But essentially, they see this as a kind of strategy.
0:50:50 > 0:50:52They don't see your grandfather as an individual.
0:50:52 > 0:50:54He's not a person, he's a piece in a chessboard.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Exactly, he's a piece in a chessboard
0:50:56 > 0:50:58that they can move around or remove.
0:50:58 > 0:51:01You know, there are people who subscribe to the theory that
0:51:01 > 0:51:03all is fair in love and war.
0:51:03 > 0:51:04I don't think that's fair.
0:51:06 > 0:51:10Hardy, whose full name was Jocelyn Lee Hardy,
0:51:10 > 0:51:11had arrived in Dublin
0:51:11 > 0:51:15just a few months before the killing of Peter O'Carroll.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18He came with a formidable reputation.
0:51:18 > 0:51:22He'd been taken prisoner in the Great War but escaped.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24Later, he'd lost a leg in battle.
0:51:24 > 0:51:28Brendan has an appointment with Professor Ronan Fanning,
0:51:28 > 0:51:30who knows more.
0:51:30 > 0:51:31So why are we meeting here?
0:51:31 > 0:51:38Because Harcourt Street is where Hardy lived in the autumn of 1920.
0:51:38 > 0:51:42And most of the other intelligence officers who came over,
0:51:42 > 0:51:46they lived in what you might call the South Dublin inner suburbs.
0:51:46 > 0:51:49But the thing about Hardy was he was very much a lone wolf.
0:51:49 > 0:51:50Brave, unquestionably,
0:51:50 > 0:51:53but he was also unquestionably utterly ruthless.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56Now, Ronan, I've read a statement that virtually,
0:51:56 > 0:51:59definitively says yes, that this man Hardy killed my grandfather.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01That's the overwhelming belief.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03Certainly everybody in the IRA believed that
0:52:03 > 0:52:05and the evidence points in that direction.
0:52:05 > 0:52:09And this actually shows the IRA's view of him.
0:52:09 > 0:52:13"Hardy was a slight man and walked with a limp, but he could be deadly.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15"He was responsible for the shootings, tortures
0:52:15 > 0:52:17"and beatings which took place in the Castle.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20"He was the most interesting character.
0:52:20 > 0:52:22"A born murderer."
0:52:25 > 0:52:28The activities of Jocelyn Lee Hardy and his associates
0:52:28 > 0:52:31quickly made them prime targets for the IRA.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35At the time of Peter O'Carroll's killing,
0:52:35 > 0:52:39the IRA's Michael Collins was already formulating a plan
0:52:39 > 0:52:43to eliminate the British intelligence operatives in Dublin.
0:52:43 > 0:52:47Just three weeks later, on Sunday, 21st November,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50Collins put his plan into action.
0:52:50 > 0:52:54IRA men visited the lodgings of British agents
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and shot 14 individuals dead.
0:52:57 > 0:53:02As a result of this, and British reprisals later that afternoon,
0:53:02 > 0:53:05the day became known as Bloody Sunday.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13Was Hardy killed on Bloody Sunday?
0:53:13 > 0:53:17No. He was very high on the hit list,
0:53:17 > 0:53:22but when they went to the hotel in Harcourt Street he wasn't there.
0:53:22 > 0:53:24He was a survivor.
0:53:24 > 0:53:29So he's not killed on Bloody Sunday,
0:53:29 > 0:53:31the IRA must have got him at some stage?
0:53:31 > 0:53:36- The IRA did keep trying to get him, but they never succeeded.- Never?
0:53:36 > 0:53:40No. You see, after the war is over, everybody says on both sides,
0:53:40 > 0:53:43"We can't go round trying to settle scores."
0:53:43 > 0:53:49- So my grandfather's killer goes unpunished?- Yes.
0:53:51 > 0:53:54- Did this man Hardy just go back to normal life then?- Yes.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59He becomes a banker, fairly affluent in that kind of stockbroker world.
0:53:59 > 0:54:05- He also writes some novels. He writes a play.- He wrote books.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09And these are two of the books he wrote in later life.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12One of the books here is called I Escape
0:54:12 > 0:54:14and that's particularly interesting.
0:54:14 > 0:54:16I think you'll find this particularly interesting
0:54:16 > 0:54:19because there's a photograph of him in this.
0:54:20 > 0:54:22There he is.
0:54:26 > 0:54:28That was taken in 1918.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40That's the last face my grandfather saw.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44Jesus, he's some...!
0:54:48 > 0:54:50You know, in my case it's personal.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53- Of course it's personal. - And I would have liked...
0:54:53 > 0:54:57I would have liked to have seen somebody taken to account for it.
0:55:01 > 0:55:05Nine months after Peter O'Carroll's killing,
0:55:05 > 0:55:08a truce was declared in the War of Independence.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10Negotiations followed.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13And on the 6th December, 1921,
0:55:13 > 0:55:15a treaty was signed.
0:55:15 > 0:55:19Six counties in Northern Ireland remained part of the United Kingdom,
0:55:19 > 0:55:23but the rest of the country became independent.
0:55:23 > 0:55:27British Forces left the newly created Irish Free State
0:55:27 > 0:55:32and many members of the IRA joined the new official Irish Army.
0:55:32 > 0:55:37The war that had taken the life of Peter O'Carroll was at an end.
0:55:37 > 0:55:39And for nearly 100 years,
0:55:39 > 0:55:44the mystery of what happened that night on Manor Street
0:55:44 > 0:55:46remained unsolved.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50I started off with the story
0:55:50 > 0:55:54that my grandfather was killed by the Black and Tans.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57I didn't expect it to come down to an individual.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00Then to find out a name of somebody who...
0:56:00 > 0:56:03To be able to put the gun in somebody's hand
0:56:03 > 0:56:09and see a photograph of Mr Hardy was very odd
0:56:09 > 0:56:12because it became very personal.
0:56:13 > 0:56:16All of a sudden, he became very human,
0:56:16 > 0:56:20and you can see him standing in my granddad's shop.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23A thing I found very upsetting is that I get the feeling
0:56:23 > 0:56:26my granddad knew he was going to die.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29I...I think he knew when that knock came to the door
0:56:29 > 0:56:32that when he went downstairs they were going to shoot him.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35Cos they said they would.
0:56:35 > 0:56:38But he wasn't going to shop his sons under any circumstances.
0:56:38 > 0:56:40He wasn't going to hand in his sons.
0:56:40 > 0:56:45So it's a pretty dire predicament to be in.
0:56:45 > 0:56:49He went down to face what was going to be an inevitable execution.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16"In loving memory of Peter O'Carroll,
0:57:16 > 0:57:19"shot at his home during curfew.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22"16th October, 1920."
0:57:22 > 0:57:24I was determined not to come back here
0:57:24 > 0:57:27until such time as we'd completed the search.
0:57:27 > 0:57:31And now that we're back, I see my granny is there, Annie O'Carroll.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33She died on the 4th March, 1954.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36That would be a year before I was born.
0:57:36 > 0:57:40And when I first saw this, there was no sense of attachment.
0:57:40 > 0:57:42It was...
0:57:42 > 0:57:44I may as well have been looking at that one, the one next door,
0:57:44 > 0:57:46there was no sense.
0:57:46 > 0:57:50The "shot at his home," that was very stark
0:57:50 > 0:57:52and that's what started me on the search.
0:57:52 > 0:57:56And even then, getting the newspaper article and reading the newspaper,
0:57:56 > 0:58:00I may as well have been reading about, you know, a stranger.
0:58:00 > 0:58:04But this search has made it very personal, and made him very human.
0:58:04 > 0:58:08All of them. The story's reborn.
0:58:08 > 0:58:11The story hasn't died with them.
0:58:11 > 0:58:13In the letter to the Lord Mayor,
0:58:13 > 0:58:16my grandmother said that she didn't want vengeance,
0:58:16 > 0:58:19she wanted truth and she wanted justice.
0:58:20 > 0:58:26And, well, this is the truth and we're beyond justice, I think,
0:58:26 > 0:58:29at this stage, but at least we got the truth.
0:58:29 > 0:58:34And the truth that I never expected to get. Never.