0:00:03 > 0:00:04Amazing how fresh they are, though.
0:00:04 > 0:00:07- I know.- As soon as they come out, they are like coils of energy.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Clare Balding is one of Britain's leading sports presenters
0:00:12 > 0:00:13and broadcasters.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15They are very excited about the sport,
0:00:15 > 0:00:17and so too are my three guests this evening,
0:00:17 > 0:00:20who between them have won 12 Olympic gold medals.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22It's unusual for me to be looking backwards.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25I'm always about the next thing, the next Winter Olympics,
0:00:25 > 0:00:27the next Commonwealth Games, the next Olympics.
0:00:27 > 0:00:32So, actually, to be reflective about anything is rare for me.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Come on, Archie.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37Clare lives in London with her wife, Alice Arnold.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Might get inspiration from one of the runners.
0:00:39 > 0:00:40Break into a trot.
0:00:41 > 0:00:46My mother's ancestry is very well explored in the history books.
0:00:46 > 0:00:52Her mother's mother came from a very famous aristocratic line,
0:00:52 > 0:00:56so I'd rather go a route that I don't know anything about.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00I mean, I tell you who was never talked about -
0:01:00 > 0:01:01my mother's grandfather.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Never talked about.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05I just wonder - and this is another thing that has
0:01:05 > 0:01:09been sort of whispered in the family - could he have been gay?
0:01:10 > 0:01:14I suppose it would mean that I am not the first one
0:01:14 > 0:01:16to be in a same-sex relationship
0:01:16 > 0:01:19and to be gay, and certainly not the only one.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21I come from a big, big family.
0:01:21 > 0:01:22There are bound to be others anyway,
0:01:22 > 0:01:25but it would be so interesting if it is that direct.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29I'm very curious, I'm very inquisitive,
0:01:29 > 0:01:34so I'm looking forward to sort of ferreting around in lives that have
0:01:34 > 0:01:37seemed closed to me, and maybe finding things
0:01:37 > 0:01:40that they didn't ever mean to be public.
0:01:40 > 0:01:41Come on, Arch.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43That will be really intriguing.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22So, this is my starting point.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25This is a portrait of my grandmother's mother,
0:02:25 > 0:02:28my great-grandmother, so Lady Victoria Stanley,
0:02:28 > 0:02:32by an artist called John Lavery, who I think is quite well known.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36And it's rather haunting.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38You can't really tell anything from it.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42It's inscrutable. I know she was a daughter of the Earl of Derby,
0:02:42 > 0:02:43I think his only daughter.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49She died very young, in her early 30s, and I think,
0:02:49 > 0:02:51I'm pretty sure it was a riding accident.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56This is a photograph of her daughter, my grandmother,
0:02:56 > 0:03:00talking to my brother. I'm about eight here.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03But, yeah, I would like to find out more about Lady Victoria,
0:03:03 > 0:03:04whose life, obviously, was very short,
0:03:04 > 0:03:07but also more about Lady Victoria's husband,
0:03:07 > 0:03:08who was a man called Sir Malcolm Bullock,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11and he was my grandmother's father.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14And he is a mystery. I mean, I don't even know what he looks like.
0:03:14 > 0:03:19I think he worked in politics, I'm not quite sure how senior,
0:03:19 > 0:03:23and there is something of a whiff of scandal around him.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27There was a story that grandma had a load of letters to him,
0:03:27 > 0:03:30and there was something in them she didn't like, and so she burned them.
0:03:30 > 0:03:31Why would somebody do that?
0:03:31 > 0:03:34Why would you burn a load of correspondence
0:03:34 > 0:03:38unless there was something to hide? I just wonder -
0:03:38 > 0:03:40and this is another thing that I think has never been cleared up,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43that has been sort of whispered in the family -
0:03:43 > 0:03:47might he have been homosexual, as they said in those days,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49which would have been obviously illegal at the time,
0:03:49 > 0:03:54and hugely shameful, and I suspect, to my grandmother, quite appalling.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57There was mention of an artist, Rex Whistler.
0:03:57 > 0:04:03Whether my great-grandfather was involved with him on a business,
0:04:03 > 0:04:05you know, arrangement when he was financially supporting him,
0:04:05 > 0:04:07or just was a fan and buying his work,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10or whether he was emotionally involved with him, I don't know.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12And that's something I would love to discover.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Clare wants to start by investigating the mystery
0:04:18 > 0:04:21surrounding her maternal great-grandfather,
0:04:21 > 0:04:22Sir Malcolm Bullock.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28She is heading back to Hampshire, where she grew up,
0:04:28 > 0:04:30and where many of her family still live.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36I think the best place to start is with my mother's eldest brother,
0:04:36 > 0:04:39Uncle Willie. So, he was grandma's eldest son,
0:04:39 > 0:04:43and he would be the one who might remember his grandfather,
0:04:43 > 0:04:46Sir Malcolm Bullock.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49And he may know how well his grandfather knew Rex Whistler,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52and he lives in Grandma's old house.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58- Hello.- Good day.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00- How are things?- Very well, how was your journey?
0:05:00 > 0:05:04- Wet. Dark. You know. - Come on in.- Thanks.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10So, I know very well what grandma's mother looked like,
0:05:10 > 0:05:12because she is staring at me from a portrait in my house,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15but I don't know what Sir Malcolm Bullock looked like.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18Well, here is a picture, a photograph of him,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22that was probably taken between the wars.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Well, he looks a little bit like you.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29- I mean...- What, good-looking? - Yes, dashing, handsome!
0:05:30 > 0:05:32He's actually got a very kind face.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34- I think I would have liked him. - I'm sure you would.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38And then this here is a picture of us both together with his terrier.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40Look at your flares!
0:05:40 > 0:05:42Was he fun? Did you like him?
0:05:42 > 0:05:47Yeah, he was great fun, because he was a very witty raconteur.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49And am I right in thinking he was in politics?
0:05:49 > 0:05:54Yes, he was an MP for, I think, over 30 years.
0:05:54 > 0:05:59- Oh, right.- He also had a deep interest and love of France.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02He was made a commandant of the Legion of Honour
0:06:02 > 0:06:06for Anglo-French relations, which was, you know,
0:06:06 > 0:06:08a huge honour for a foreigner.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11And he enjoyed the theatre and opera, and, you know,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14all the fun things in London.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17In those days, they were obviously great letter writers,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20and there is a selection of letters there.
0:06:20 > 0:06:21So this is from Evelyn.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27- Probably Waugh.- Really?- Yes.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29This one, from Berkeley Square.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31"Dearest Malcolm, shattered at missing you again.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33"I'd imagined you would be in Paris for Easter.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35"Much love, Nancy."
0:06:35 > 0:06:37Nancy Mitford.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41God, wow, he really was in the sort of arty, literary set, wasn't he?
0:06:41 > 0:06:43- Yes.- And this is from John Gielgud?
0:06:43 > 0:06:45Oh, wow!
0:06:45 > 0:06:48"Dear Malcolm, I was very touched by your kind letter."
0:06:48 > 0:06:51He must have written a supportive letter after a bad review.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56So he was very well-connected in the arts and literary circles.
0:06:56 > 0:07:01- Yes.- Did you ever hear rumours that he might have been in a relationship
0:07:01 > 0:07:06- with a man, with an artist?- No.
0:07:07 > 0:07:13But he was, obviously, part of that set, as it were.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15So it wouldn't be impossible.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18And did you hear the name Rex Whistler at all?
0:07:18 > 0:07:20Only from an artistic point of view.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24It wasn't something that was a very common topic of discussion
0:07:24 > 0:07:25or anything like that.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34I felt as if I had suddenly met Malcolm Bullock with Uncle Willie,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38and now I'm on the trail, trying to find out a bit more.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42I'm driving to Salisbury -
0:07:42 > 0:07:45they have got, I believe, an archive collection
0:07:45 > 0:07:48of Rex Whistler's - to discover if there is anything
0:07:48 > 0:07:51from Rex Whistler's side that might tell us
0:07:51 > 0:07:54whether he knew Malcolm Bullock, and attack it from that end
0:07:54 > 0:07:56of the field of play, if you see what I mean.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04Rex Whistler shot to fame in 1927 when, at the age of only 22,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07he painted a mural at the Tate Gallery restaurant in London.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12During the 1930s, he moved in glamorous social circles
0:08:12 > 0:08:15and had many wealthy friends and clients.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Clare's come to Salisbury Museum
0:08:20 > 0:08:24to meet an expert on Rex Whistler's life and work, Nicky Fraser.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30- Nicky, hi.- Hello, Clare, lovely to meet you.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33- Very nice to meet you, too. - Welcome to Salisbury Museum.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35Well, I'm sort of on the... I'm on the hunt for clues.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38Does the name Malcolm Bullock mean anything to you?
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Yes, it does. Yes, it does.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42I've got some things to show you - follow me.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46The archive, including letters and diaries,
0:08:46 > 0:08:50was gathered together by Rex's brother, Laurence Whistler.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54Laurence used the material to write a biography of Rex.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57So this is my great-grandfather.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59- Gosh.- Malcolm Bullock.
0:08:59 > 0:09:00So, what do you know?
0:09:00 > 0:09:02Because I have sort of heard that he and Rex Whistler
0:09:02 > 0:09:07- might have been very close.- They definitely had a close friendship.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Here we have a tatty-looking calendar
0:09:09 > 0:09:12that would have been hanging up in Rex's studio.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13- This is from 1931.- 1931.
0:09:14 > 0:09:19So it is four years after Malcolm's wife, Lady Victoria Stanley,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22- had died.- And here we have March.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26"Dine, 8.30, M Bullock, at Houses of Parliament."
0:09:27 > 0:09:31- And...- Oh, there, "Dined Malcolm Bullock on the 24th."
0:09:31 > 0:09:34And there is, is that Malcolm B there on the 28th?
0:09:34 > 0:09:35And where are they going?
0:09:35 > 0:09:40Opera. Malcolm. 130. I mean this, now we are getting every three days.
0:09:40 > 0:09:45And just here at the end of May, written in capital letters, Paris.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47Yes, they went to Paris together.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49How do you know that?
0:09:49 > 0:09:53The letter describing their trip together is in this box,
0:09:53 > 0:09:56which was Lawrence's filing system.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59And we have got various different headings, Rex's letters...
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Royal drawing society.
0:10:01 > 0:10:02Rex love.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04Rex love!
0:10:04 > 0:10:05Love.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09Right. What have we got?
0:10:09 > 0:10:15This is a letter that Malcolm wrote to Lawrence after Rex's death,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17when Lawrence was preparing the biography.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19Whose writing is this in pencil?
0:10:19 > 0:10:20That's Lawrence's writing.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23And Malcolm. It says, "Dear Lawrence,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26"1931 was the date of the Byzantine exhibition.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30- "We stayed at the charming Hotel Fleurie in Paris."- Yes.
0:10:30 > 0:10:36Yes. Now, EO is Edith Olivia, who was a great friend of Rex's,
0:10:36 > 0:10:40so Lawrence is cross-referencing information from her diaries.
0:10:40 > 0:10:46"Ashcombe. I heard Cecil begin to be amusing over Rex and Malcolm
0:10:46 > 0:10:48"going to Paris together."
0:10:49 > 0:10:51- People were talking.- Yes.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55And what do we know about Rex's sexuality?
0:10:56 > 0:10:59It's a bit ambivalent.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03Within a few years Rex starts to fall in love with women,
0:11:03 > 0:11:10but around this time he did have older male friends, such as Malcolm.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12What do you think was happening?
0:11:12 > 0:11:16After all, these letters are stored in a section that says love.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18At the interesting thing is,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21this was obviously Laurence Whistler's filing system,
0:11:21 > 0:11:25so this is how he perhaps saw the relationship.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27If they were in a relationship,
0:11:27 > 0:11:30obviously that, in England, would be illegal,
0:11:30 > 0:11:33so we are not going to seek a love letter here, are we?
0:11:33 > 0:11:35- No, we are not, no.- Because you wouldn't dare do that.
0:11:35 > 0:11:41No, and if one did exist, Rex burnt a lot of documents, letters...
0:11:41 > 0:11:43And so did my grandmother.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Burnt a lot of things. If there was anything,
0:11:46 > 0:11:49- it may well have been destroyed. - Yes, yes.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52And do we know how long their friendship/relationship lasted?
0:11:52 > 0:11:57It was several months of quite intense friendship.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00I think Malcolm may have been keener,
0:12:00 > 0:12:03and there was a bit of a cooling off.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05- Oh, poor Malcolm!- I know.
0:12:05 > 0:12:10We have now got a bit more of Rex's friend Edith's take on things.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14"R has told M that he does not want to see him so much and Malcolm would
0:12:14 > 0:12:18"accept dismissal. I am all for his breaking of brutally because I hate
0:12:18 > 0:12:20"R to be considered the kind of man
0:12:20 > 0:12:23"which apparently MB's friends are considered."
0:12:23 > 0:12:26Gosh! Yeah, you suddenly see the sort of...
0:12:27 > 0:12:30The whiff of homophobia, obviously, in here which...
0:12:30 > 0:12:33- Yes.- You know. Is this Rex's writing?
0:12:33 > 0:12:34This is Rex's writing.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37And he says, "I've been engaged in the most awful correspondence with
0:12:37 > 0:12:40"Malcolm B for some time now,
0:12:40 > 0:12:45"and the last horror has been that he sent me a very expensive book.
0:12:45 > 0:12:46"I returned it to him."
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Oh! So, harsh, oh!
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Yes, this is rather harsh.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53Rejection!
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Yes. Things have gone a little bit downhill.
0:12:57 > 0:12:58A little bit downhill?
0:12:58 > 0:13:00Nikki, that's the biggest understatement ever!
0:13:00 > 0:13:02Things have crashed and burned.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04- This is awful.- They have.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Malcolm is heartbroken, Rex doesn't care because he has ended it.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09- I think...- Heartless, your man, he's heartless.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11- I think Rex did care.- Ok.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14There's something else I want to show you.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16Ulysses's farewell.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20"For Sir Malcolm Bullock. Oil on canvas."
0:13:20 > 0:13:25Their close relationship was over but he did this huge painting
0:13:25 > 0:13:27for him, and it was a gift.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30If that is a parting gift,
0:13:30 > 0:13:35that is a very sophisticated way in which to say thank you and goodbye.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43Well, it's obviously true that my great-grandfather
0:13:43 > 0:13:47had a deep relationship of some sort with Rex Whistler -
0:13:47 > 0:13:51nobody will ever know whether that was physical or not.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55There's a hint of tension in everything
0:13:55 > 0:13:59because he's a very public figure, he's an MP,
0:13:59 > 0:14:03and he's clearly living a lifestyle that suggests he might be engaged
0:14:03 > 0:14:07in illegal acts, and, you know, you can't say this often enough -
0:14:07 > 0:14:10it was illegal for a man to be homosexual.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18I sort of wonder the kind of life that he was living.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22So Nicky says, if I was going to try and find out more about Malcolm's
0:14:22 > 0:14:25set, I should go to Kent.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27To Kent I shall go - that's the nature of it.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30And she says to follow up on a friend that she knows
0:14:30 > 0:14:33that Malcolm Bullock saw a lot of - Sir Philip Sassoon.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40Sir Philip Sassoon was a British politician
0:14:40 > 0:14:42and a member of the fabulously wealthy Sassoon
0:14:42 > 0:14:44and Rothschild families.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49He was famed as an extravagant host who threw lavish house parties
0:14:49 > 0:14:52attended by the glamorous A-listers of the day.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58One of his homes was the country house Port Lympne.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00Hi there, Damian.
0:15:00 > 0:15:02- Hi there, Clare. - Very nice to meet you.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04Very nice to meet you, too. Welcome to Port Lympne.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06Before we go inside, I'll take you out to the terrace
0:15:06 > 0:15:09and give you a bit of a sense of the location.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13Damian Collins MP is an expert on Philip Sassoon and his circle.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15The location is really why Philip Sassoon loved this house
0:15:15 > 0:15:16and built it here.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19That is extraordinary.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23You do feel when you are Port Lympne like you are in an enclosed world,
0:15:23 > 0:15:24which I think is what Philip Sassoon wanted.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27It makes it ideal as a great party house and a place to entertain
0:15:27 > 0:15:31his friends, but I thought perhaps we could wander into the house.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33And then so my great-grandfather was a guest here.
0:15:33 > 0:15:34That's right, he was.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39I thought you might be particularly interested to see this room.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41It hasn't really changed very much since Malcolm Bullock
0:15:41 > 0:15:44- would have been a guest here at Lympne.- Is this a Rex Whistler?
0:15:44 > 0:15:46- Yes, that's right.- Oh!
0:15:46 > 0:15:51So this was commissioned by Philip Sassoon and Whistler painted this
0:15:51 > 0:15:53during the summer when the parties were going on.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56And there's a very good description here of one of Phillip's parties.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59"He made his weekend parties unparalleled in the world.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01"Nothing like them had been seen before,
0:16:01 > 0:16:05"and surely nothing remotely like them will ever be seen again.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09"No pomp, no ceremony, no formality, no white ties, just dinner jackets."
0:16:09 > 0:16:11Still pretty smart!
0:16:11 > 0:16:13"But always, when he went to change for dinner,
0:16:13 > 0:16:16"a carnation and a cocktail on your dressing table.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19"Today it all seems like a dream of another world.
0:16:19 > 0:16:20"A white-coated footman,
0:16:20 > 0:16:24"Winston Churchill arguing over the teacups with Bernard Shaw,
0:16:24 > 0:16:26"Rex Whistler painting alone,
0:16:26 > 0:16:29"Osbert Sitwell and Malcolm Bullock laughing in a corner."
0:16:29 > 0:16:32They sound quite good house parties, I have to say.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35Philip Sassoon was very socially liberal for the time
0:16:35 > 0:16:37so if someone had got a girlfriend or boyfriend
0:16:37 > 0:16:40that they maybe shouldn't have then they could relax with them here
0:16:40 > 0:16:41with other friends, as well.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45It is interesting that that element of, you know,
0:16:45 > 0:16:47you can be with who you want to be, you won't be judged here,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50and it won't be reported outside this circle.
0:16:50 > 0:16:51- Yes, yes.- So there is a privacy to it.
0:16:51 > 0:16:56One of the things I've been looking at is whether Malcolm Bullock
0:16:56 > 0:17:00had a relationship with Rex Whistler and whether actually he may have had
0:17:00 > 0:17:01relationships with other men.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03Do you know anything about that?
0:17:03 > 0:17:06Well, I think Philip Sassoon himself,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09it is believed that he was actively homosexual,
0:17:09 > 0:17:10but it could never be public.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Now, when you look at Phillip's parties,
0:17:13 > 0:17:14I think they divide into two groups.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17There are the big sort of social gatherings we have talked about,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19with celebrities and famous people and politicians,
0:17:19 > 0:17:22but then lots of gatherings as well where you see groups of men
0:17:22 > 0:17:26who we now know were either homosexual or certainly bisexual -
0:17:26 > 0:17:31so Bob Boothby, Malcolm Bullock and other MPs like Victor Cazalet,
0:17:31 > 0:17:33Chips Channon, they are often together at Phillip's parties,
0:17:33 > 0:17:37and I think there he provides opportunity for, probably,
0:17:37 > 0:17:41a group of gay men to basically socialise with each other.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Gosh, you just say that as if it is accepted fact, group of gay MPs,
0:17:44 > 0:17:45Malcolm Bullock was one of them.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Yes. But again I think whether that was publicly known about,
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I think they would have been very careful to make sure that it wasn't.
0:18:00 > 0:18:06In my mind, there's no doubt that he was gay,
0:18:06 > 0:18:08bisexual, but you know, he had to be married
0:18:08 > 0:18:11but he certainly would rather have been with men,
0:18:11 > 0:18:15so I am very curious about my great-grandparents,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Malcolm Bullock and Lady Victoria Stanley,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20who died very young, I think, in a riding accident.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25I would love to know how this marriage came about, whether it was,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28you know, a marriage of convenience, I've no idea.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34So I'm going to Liverpool, which is where Malcolm Bullock was an MP,
0:18:34 > 0:18:37but also, crucially, it's where Knowsley is,
0:18:37 > 0:18:39which is the family seat of the Earl of Derby,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42so that's where Lady Victoria Stanley was born,
0:18:42 > 0:18:44where she grew up, and I hope at Knowsley,
0:18:44 > 0:18:46I'll be able to find out a bit more about both of them
0:18:46 > 0:18:48and particularly Lady Victoria Stanley...
0:18:50 > 0:18:52..but I suspect a fair bit about Malcolm as well.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58Malcolm Bullock and Lady Victoria Stanley first met in Paris in 1918,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01when Lady Victoria was a young widow.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04Malcolm had come to work for her father, the 17th Earl of Derby,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06who was British ambassador in Paris.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Clare wants to find out more about her great-grandparents' relationship
0:19:18 > 0:19:19at that time.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22The current Earl of Derby,
0:19:22 > 0:19:25who would be a cousin of my mother's, he's away,
0:19:25 > 0:19:27so I'm going to meet the archivist.
0:19:36 > 0:19:37Only a little pad, eh?
0:19:38 > 0:19:39Gosh!
0:19:42 > 0:19:46The curator of the Derby collection, who looks after the archives
0:19:46 > 0:19:47at Knowsley, is Stephen Lloyd.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51These are all your Stanley family ancestors.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55- A bit overwhelming.- So, here we are, here's the 17th Earl.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Who is my great-great-grandfather?
0:19:58 > 0:20:02- Correct.- So he's the one that is the ambassador in France, he's in Paris,
0:20:02 > 0:20:07and after Lady Victoria's first husband died in the First World War
0:20:07 > 0:20:10he introduces her to this chap, Captain Malcolm Bullock.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13- Who was on his staff, the embassy staff.- He worked for him?
0:20:13 > 0:20:16He was the ADC, yes, and this rather grand portrait
0:20:16 > 0:20:17is by Sir John Lavery.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20Which makes sense that this, which is my great-grandmother...
0:20:20 > 0:20:23- That's a beautiful portrait. - ..is a Lavery as well?- Yes.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25And I'm just really intrigued by her,
0:20:25 > 0:20:29and her life, and her marriage to Malcolm Bullock.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Well, we have got some archival material on her which you
0:20:32 > 0:20:35would be interested to see.
0:20:35 > 0:20:40So the story starts when Lord Derby is made British ambassador in Paris
0:20:40 > 0:20:42in November 1918.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45- Do have a look through. - Look at these pictures!
0:20:45 > 0:20:47The King of the Belgians.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51A very fine-looking horse, that, as well. Now this is at Longchamp.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53This Lord Derby is very keen on racing. Yes?
0:20:53 > 0:20:56I mean, he's one of the key figures in the history of racing in the
0:20:56 > 0:21:00- 20th century.- Consequently Lady Victoria is interested in horses
0:21:00 > 0:21:03- and racing.- Mm-mm, she was certainly going to a lot of social events
0:21:03 > 0:21:07- with her father.- And he adored her, didn't he?
0:21:07 > 0:21:11Yes. And into this world of the embassy in Paris
0:21:11 > 0:21:12comes Malcolm Bullock.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15What I can show you is this document.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17"A quiet marriage ceremony in Paris" -
0:21:17 > 0:21:19so they got married in Paris!
0:21:19 > 0:21:23As well as official documents there are also personal letters,
0:21:23 > 0:21:26including one Lady Victoria wrote to Malcolm while he was away
0:21:26 > 0:21:27from the embassy.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31"My own darling, I was racing today at Saint-Luc and, for a wonder,
0:21:31 > 0:21:32"made a little money."
0:21:32 > 0:21:34Oh, she's having a bet. Good on her.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37"I then went to tea with Nina, where we were interrupted
0:21:37 > 0:21:40"in the most interesting discussion on sex by Dada.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42"Du Boss told me, with great delight,
0:21:42 > 0:21:44"that he had just been seeing the King of Spain off at the station.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47"What a bore he must have been!"
0:21:47 > 0:21:49She's got a good sense of humour, hasn't she?
0:21:49 > 0:21:51They've been talking about sex!
0:21:52 > 0:21:55You know, there's a portrait of her in my house.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58- Mm.- And I thought that expression was just neutral.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00Gave away... I couldn't read anything into it,
0:22:00 > 0:22:04and now I can hear her voice and imagine her being
0:22:04 > 0:22:06this sort of slightly cheeky, funny...
0:22:06 > 0:22:09- A little bit irreverent. - A little bit irreverent, yes.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11So how long did they stay in Paris?
0:22:11 > 0:22:14The 17th Earl's embassy in Paris ends in November 1920
0:22:14 > 0:22:18after two years, and the whole family comes back,
0:22:18 > 0:22:22but in 1927 everything changes. Right, which is the...
0:22:22 > 0:22:23year of her accident.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27Gosh. Did they document that?
0:22:27 > 0:22:29Yes, it's a scrapbook about what happened.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33Oh, God. 26th of the 11th, 26th of November, 1927,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36"Earl of Derby's daughter gravely injured.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39"Lady V Bullock falls while hunting.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42"Lord Derby is abroad and attempts were made this evening
0:22:42 > 0:22:44"to communicate with him."
0:22:44 > 0:22:46This is in every single newspaper.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Hang on a sec! I mean, that is every paper of the day.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53And there's a picture of her on her horse, riding side-saddle.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55"Lady Victoria Bullock, Lord Derby's only daughter
0:22:55 > 0:22:59"and personal friend of Princess Mary died yesterday
0:22:59 > 0:23:02"from injuries received in a hunting accident."
0:23:02 > 0:23:05So it says, "The only person who witnessed the accident
0:23:05 > 0:23:06"was Mr C Richardson, who was a groom.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09"He was riding near Lady Victoria when she remarked,
0:23:09 > 0:23:11"I'm going this way, it's a short cut,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14"and indicated a low bridge under the railway line.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17"Mr Richardson, he lowered his head and passed through the tunnel
0:23:17 > 0:23:20"safely, went through he happened to glance back
0:23:20 > 0:23:23"just in time to see Lady Victoria strike her head on the brickwork
0:23:23 > 0:23:25"and fall from the horse."
0:23:26 > 0:23:28So her horse must have just been...
0:23:28 > 0:23:30She's on a big horse in that picture,
0:23:30 > 0:23:32but it just must've been a bit bigger than his and also,
0:23:32 > 0:23:35when you're riding side-saddle you are just a bit higher.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37You sit very upright, whereas...
0:23:37 > 0:23:39If you are riding astride,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41you can lean right down and bend your body into.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43If you are riding side-saddle, if you think about it,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46it's much harder to get your head down low.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51I've never seen any of this.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54You see, I knew that she had died in a riding accident -
0:23:54 > 0:23:56I thought it was out hunting.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00There again, it says a bit more about her character.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03"Lady Victoria Bullock was distinguished by a natural grace
0:24:03 > 0:24:05"of manner which charmed all who met her."
0:24:08 > 0:24:11"His friends are much concerned for Captain Malcolm Bullock MP
0:24:11 > 0:24:13"in his overwhelming grief.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15"He was devoted to his wife and his home,
0:24:15 > 0:24:18"and in a moment his happiness has been shattered."
0:24:18 > 0:24:22And I just wanted to show you this letter to Malcolm
0:24:22 > 0:24:23from Winston Churchill.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27"My dear Malcolm, you and Victoria were so suited to one another,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30"so devoted to each other, that this separation and destruction
0:24:30 > 0:24:32"of your happiness seems doubly cruel."
0:24:33 > 0:24:35And there's the reply.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39Yes. "Victoria and I had eight years of perfect happiness together,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42"without a cloud or anything to regret.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45"I cannot yet believe that it is all over."
0:24:47 > 0:24:49You see, I can absolutely...
0:24:49 > 0:24:53Where I had wondered whether her marriage to Malcolm was one of
0:24:53 > 0:24:56convenience, I actually think now they were really happy.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Mm-mm.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03And then we have... We have a letter of sympathy
0:25:03 > 0:25:06from Lord Derby himself to Malcolm.
0:25:07 > 0:25:12"My dear Malcolm, I send you a photograph of our darling.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14"It's not really good but she liked it.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17"I can't talk or write to you about her, I'm too great a coward..."
0:25:28 > 0:25:30There's me saying I wouldn't cry on this.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36It's that line, "I can't talk or write to you about her,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40"I'm too great a coward, but I loved her as no man has ever loved
0:25:40 > 0:25:43"his daughter, and with her has gone all joy from my life."
0:25:46 > 0:25:47Desperate.
0:25:51 > 0:25:52Oh, pull yourself together, come on!
0:25:56 > 0:25:58- It's just very touching, isn't it? - Yes.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07That's very sweet, that he sort of immediately offers his support
0:26:07 > 0:26:08to Malcolm.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10"I want you to think that I am to you all that I had tried to be
0:26:10 > 0:26:14"to her, that you have in me a friend to whom you can always turn."
0:26:20 > 0:26:22That's just raw grief, isn't it?
0:26:35 > 0:26:39It is amazing how quickly you can feel attached to somebody
0:26:39 > 0:26:42by hearing their voice, and it was those early letters
0:26:42 > 0:26:46from Lady Victoria to Malcolm Bullock, where she seemed so cheeky,
0:26:46 > 0:26:50so irreverent, so, you know, funny, and I just really started to
0:26:50 > 0:26:54like her, and I knew she died in a hunting accident
0:26:54 > 0:26:57but I didn't realise the depth of mourning.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03I think Malcolm and Lady Victoria had a very happy marriage,
0:27:03 > 0:27:07albeit short, that it may have been a convenient meeting,
0:27:07 > 0:27:09but it wasn't a marriage of convenience,
0:27:09 > 0:27:13and whatever Malcolm did in the '30s, he wasn't disloyal,
0:27:13 > 0:27:17he didn't neglect her at all in the years that they were married.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21You know, that description he writes to Churchill about the eight years
0:27:21 > 0:27:25that they had without a cloud, and without any regrets.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28How many people can say that about any relationship?
0:27:28 > 0:27:33And three or four years later he is living in a very different circle,
0:27:33 > 0:27:38he's... You know, he's swept up into a different world.
0:27:38 > 0:27:39He almost certainly was gay
0:27:39 > 0:27:42and he certainly was hanging around with a lot of gay men,
0:27:42 > 0:27:44therefore has very different relationships.
0:27:44 > 0:27:45You know, it happens.
0:27:46 > 0:27:51Just in the space of a few days I've gone from knowing nothing
0:27:51 > 0:27:54about Malcolm Bullock - not even knowing what he looked like -
0:27:54 > 0:27:56from being able to read very little into the vision
0:27:56 > 0:27:59I had of Lady Victoria from that portrait,
0:27:59 > 0:28:01to suddenly feeling that I do know them.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06I'm really relieved they were happy.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21Well, that's far more about my mother's side of the family
0:28:21 > 0:28:23than I expected to discover.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27Now I'm heading home again to find out from my father about his family.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29Now, I know that his father was a polo player
0:28:29 > 0:28:32and he went to America to play polo,
0:28:32 > 0:28:36and I imagine that it was because of that that he met my grandmother,
0:28:36 > 0:28:40because she was American, her name was Hoagland.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42I don't know anything about her family.
0:28:42 > 0:28:44I think my father knows plenty about the Baldings,
0:28:44 > 0:28:47but I don't know if he knows anything really about the Hoaglands.
0:28:47 > 0:28:48We'll see.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Clare's father is racehorse trainer Ian Balding.
0:28:58 > 0:28:59- Hey, Dad!- Hello, girl.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01- You all right?- Yes.
0:29:01 > 0:29:03- Hey, Mack-mack.- Nice to see you.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05Hi, Mack-mack. Who's the boy?
0:29:05 > 0:29:07- How are you?- All right.- Good.
0:29:07 > 0:29:08I had great fun with Mum's family.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12- Did you?- Full of scandal. Exactly.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15- I know.- Oh, good.- So, Dad, I've got lots of questions for you.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19- Oh!- About your family.- About my family?- Yeah, come on.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23Ian's cousin, Judith Balding, has also come to talk to Clare.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26So, the Baldings were all horsey people, were they, Dad?
0:29:26 > 0:29:28As far as I know, always.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31And Judith's got a family tree which we'll show you.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34All right. Here you go, if you have a look at that.
0:29:34 > 0:29:40You can see that your grandfather, Gerald, was a horse dealer,
0:29:40 > 0:29:43a polo player and a racehorse trainer.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46And then if you go back up to Bert...
0:29:46 > 0:29:49He was a horse dealer. William Balding's a horse dealer,
0:29:49 > 0:29:51another William Balding's a horse dealer and all the way back
0:29:51 > 0:29:54to Thomas Balding, early 19th-century,
0:29:54 > 0:29:55saddler and dog trainer.
0:29:55 > 0:29:56- Yes.- Dog trainer.
0:29:56 > 0:29:58- Dog trainer.- There you are.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01And that's Dad, Barney and Ivor.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03The Balding boys.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05So all in their polo kit.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07Dad, of course, became a ten-goal player
0:30:07 > 0:30:08but those two were both seven.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11And ten is the best you can be so you're sort of handicapped
0:30:11 > 0:30:13according to your ability.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16Ten goals means you've got to give ten goals away to the other team.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19And am I right in thinking there hasn't been a ten-goal player
0:30:19 > 0:30:22- since him in England? - No, there hasn't.- You're right.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25He's the last ten-goal player. 1939.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29- That's amazing.- It is amazing. - Yes.- Some photos of your dad.
0:30:29 > 0:30:31- Oh, look.- And your grandfather.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33Oh, Dad, you look so serious.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35He was telling me to sit up.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37- Was he?- Sit up straight, boy.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40Oh, that looks so funny.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43He went to America because of polo, did he?
0:30:43 > 0:30:45Gerald went when he was 22 years old.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47He met your mother.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50Do you know how and when?
0:30:50 > 0:30:53- Not really.- She was a Hoagland. What about them?
0:30:53 > 0:30:56She was a Hoagland and the Hoaglands were pretty wealthy.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58Do you know how they made their money?
0:30:58 > 0:31:00I have no idea.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02No, I don't know.
0:31:02 > 0:31:04- Anything about them.- No.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06- OK. Well, that's my job, then. - Yeah. You can find out.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08To try and find out a bit more because we know all
0:31:08 > 0:31:11about the Baldings and basically they are horse dealers.
0:31:11 > 0:31:13- That is clear.- And no money.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15And no money, OK.
0:31:15 > 0:31:16Where should I start?
0:31:16 > 0:31:19I think you should go to Rumson, probably.
0:31:19 > 0:31:21To the Rumson polo club in New Jersey.
0:31:21 > 0:31:23- New Jersey?- Which is Rumson, New Jersey.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26Because that's where they mostly are, or were.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28Oh, great.
0:31:30 > 0:31:32Clare's paternal grandfather, Gerald Balding,
0:31:32 > 0:31:36met her wealthy American grandmother, Eleanor Hoagland,
0:31:36 > 0:31:38in Rumson, New Jersey.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45Clare's travelled to America to see what she can find out
0:31:45 > 0:31:47about Eleanor's family.
0:31:49 > 0:31:53It's a very odd thing knowing that you are...
0:31:53 > 0:31:55A lot of me is American.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57But I've never really felt American
0:31:57 > 0:32:01and maybe that's to do with not really knowing much about that side
0:32:01 > 0:32:05of my family so that's maybe something that changes
0:32:05 > 0:32:08in the course of this investigation.
0:32:08 > 0:32:13I might go back with an American accent, actually.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16- IN A BAD ACCENT: - Speaking all New York.
0:32:16 > 0:32:17Coffee.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Are those...? Are those houses...? Are those Rumson houses over there?
0:32:31 > 0:32:32Oh, it's nice.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38Clare has come to the country club where her grandfather played polo.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41She's arranged to meet up with her Aunt Gail,
0:32:41 > 0:32:44her father's younger sister, who lives in America.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48Aunt Gail, hello.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49Hello, Clare.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51- This is very smart. - Yes, it's lovely.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54And I've been having a bit of a look around because I haven't been here
0:32:54 > 0:32:57- for years.- Yeah.- And I found some things that you might find very
0:32:57 > 0:33:03interesting. Things that relate to my father, and this polo trophy
0:33:03 > 0:33:05- is one of them. - Oh, my word, it's heavy.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07Ivor Balding and Gerald Balding,
0:33:07 > 0:33:10so Uncle Ivor and my grandfather were in that team.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12He was hired by the Rumson club to come and teach polo
0:33:12 > 0:33:16and meantime he was also playing in tournaments in Long Island
0:33:16 > 0:33:17and other places.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21- NEWSREEL:- Polo, society's number one sport,
0:33:21 > 0:33:25draws fashionable crowds to the international field
0:33:25 > 0:33:28which boasts such stars as Hedgecock, Balding and Pete Foster.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Polo drew huge crowds on the east coast of America
0:33:31 > 0:33:36in the 1930s and Gerald Balding was one of its international stars.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38Between the chukkas, Balding nurses an injured wrist.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41He is America's second-ranking player.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44An amateur sport, polo was mainly played by wealthy men
0:33:44 > 0:33:47but many top teams hired players like Gerald Balding
0:33:47 > 0:33:51to boost their chances in prestigious tournaments.
0:33:53 > 0:33:54Champagne, gentlemen.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57Have a look at these pictures.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59So he was strong. I mean, look at his upper body.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03He was a big fella. But everybody said that he was the most superb
0:34:03 > 0:34:07horseman and he met my mum because her family lived hereabouts
0:34:07 > 0:34:12and she found this greyhound dog that was running loose in Rumson,
0:34:12 > 0:34:14so she picked it up and asked lots of people,
0:34:14 > 0:34:16to whom does this dog belong?
0:34:16 > 0:34:18And they said, well, it must be that English chap out there.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21So she drove out with the dog and knocked on the door
0:34:21 > 0:34:23and the door opens and out comes my father
0:34:23 > 0:34:27and there's a lady in her negligee coming down the stairs behind him.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29SHE LAUGHS
0:34:29 > 0:34:32Of course there was. And she falls in love with him...
0:34:32 > 0:34:35So my mother was standing there with this dog saying, "Is this dog yours?"
0:34:35 > 0:34:37"Oh, yes, it is indeed my dog."
0:34:37 > 0:34:39And that's how they met.
0:34:39 > 0:34:42She was 18 and he was 32.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45So what kind of family were the Hoaglands?
0:34:45 > 0:34:49Her father, Joseph Hoagland, was, I would say, quite well-to-do.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52They owned a big estate here in Rumson.
0:34:52 > 0:34:57He was not pleased when she turned up and said, I want to marry this
0:34:57 > 0:35:00much older, penniless, English polo player.
0:35:00 > 0:35:04- This is the wedding, is it? - This is the wedding, yeah.
0:35:04 > 0:35:05Look at your mother.
0:35:05 > 0:35:09And it was a very glamorous society wedding.
0:35:09 > 0:35:11So this is Joseph Hoagland.
0:35:11 > 0:35:12Joseph C Hoagland.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15And he is my great-great-grandfather.
0:35:15 > 0:35:19- He did have piercing blue eyes. - Do you know how he made his money?
0:35:19 > 0:35:22Well, I don't, really - I should, but I don't.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25- He looks a bit dour, doesn't he? - He looks very stern.- Yeah.
0:35:33 > 0:35:35To see if she can find out more about her great-grandfather,
0:35:35 > 0:35:39Joseph Hoagland, Clare is going to do some digging of her own.
0:35:44 > 0:35:48So, Joseph Hoagland, with your piercing blue eyes,
0:35:48 > 0:35:52you terrifying man, who are you and what did you do?
0:35:58 > 0:36:02So here we go, Joseph Hoagland, 1920 United States federal census.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05So he was 30 then.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07Birthplace, New York.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09Homeland...
0:36:09 > 0:36:10Street, Madison Avenue?
0:36:11 > 0:36:12He lived on Madison Avenue.
0:36:14 > 0:36:18Household members. There is Eleanor Hoagland, who was only four.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22My grandmother. Let's see if we can find a bit more detail.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30So this must be his passport application.
0:36:30 > 0:36:32It's amazing, this, isn't it?
0:36:33 > 0:36:35I can actually see the document.
0:36:37 > 0:36:38Incredible.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43Follow the occupation of real estate.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47So he's a property magnate of some sort.
0:36:49 > 0:36:50Madison Avenue.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53Great. I'm going to Manhattan.
0:36:53 > 0:36:54Come on!
0:36:59 > 0:37:01Hi, there. Thank you very much.
0:37:09 > 0:37:11Today, as in Joseph Hoagland's day,
0:37:11 > 0:37:15people travel between New Jersey and the island of Manhattan by boat.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20It's so impressive. I mean, just the way, as you come in across the sea,
0:37:20 > 0:37:24those buildings are there like big beasts.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27I so didn't think we were going to Manhattan.
0:37:27 > 0:37:28I'm really thrilled.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32Look at all that as real estate, as well.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34As property.
0:37:34 > 0:37:35When did that spring up?
0:37:35 > 0:37:37When did Manhattan become what it is now?
0:37:38 > 0:37:41And was Joseph Hoagland anything to do with it?
0:37:41 > 0:37:42That's my question.
0:37:42 > 0:37:43How does he fit in?
0:37:43 > 0:37:45It's exciting, it is.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54To try to answer her question,
0:37:54 > 0:37:58Clare is meeting an expert on the building of Manhattan, Jason Barr.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02Jason, hi. Thanks so much for coming out in the rain.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04- It's great to meet you. - Lovely to meet you, too.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06Now, your mission, should you choose to accept it,
0:38:06 > 0:38:09is to tell me more about my great-grandfather, Joseph Hoagland.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12Because I know he had an address on Madison Avenue.
0:38:12 > 0:38:13- That's right.- But...
0:38:13 > 0:38:16Well, if you look around and across the street,
0:38:16 > 0:38:18you will see that is the building...
0:38:18 > 0:38:20- The red-brick one?- ..that Joseph Hoagland constructed.
0:38:20 > 0:38:25- Oh, nice.- He financed and developed that project in 1920-21.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28He was involved in many projects throughout Manhattan
0:38:28 > 0:38:31and this was just one and he lived just to the left
0:38:31 > 0:38:33of this apartment building.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36This was constructed for very wealthy clientele
0:38:36 > 0:38:40and I have an article here that will give you more information about it.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42It starts with a 1 million apartment building.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45- What year is this?- This is from...
0:38:45 > 0:38:471920?! 1 million in 1920?
0:38:47 > 0:38:50- That's correct. - The Pentalpha Realty Corporation.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54Joseph C Hoagland president, owners.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57"The operation represents a total investment of 1 million."
0:38:57 > 0:39:02- Wow.- But let me say that 1 million in 1920 was a lot of money.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05Your great-grandfather was very much on the vanguard, if you will,
0:39:05 > 0:39:09of developers who were building sort of modern apartment buildings
0:39:09 > 0:39:12to suit the new developing taste of the upper classes.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16At the turn of the 20th century,
0:39:16 > 0:39:18wealthy New Yorkers lived in town houses or mansions.
0:39:20 > 0:39:21But after World War I,
0:39:21 > 0:39:25many chose to capitalise on the rising value of land in Manhattan
0:39:25 > 0:39:27by selling their homes for redevelopment
0:39:27 > 0:39:30and moving to new luxury apartment buildings.
0:39:33 > 0:39:34So, Aunt Gail, my Aunt Gail,
0:39:34 > 0:39:36told me that they were a very wealthy family
0:39:36 > 0:39:40but what I'm not clear on is, did Joseph Hoagland make the money
0:39:40 > 0:39:43or did he inherit? Were they already rich?
0:39:43 > 0:39:46Well, he certainly would have made money in real estate but I found a
0:39:46 > 0:39:53census from 1920 that gives information about Joseph's father.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Right at the top, you can see...
0:39:55 > 0:39:56Raymond Hoagland.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58And the address is Fifth Avenue.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02- Fifth Avenue.- And it actually gives the number, 817.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05And what is 817 Fifth Avenue now?
0:40:05 > 0:40:08Well, perhaps we should walk over there and take a look.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10Come on.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12I want it to be really glamorous, really.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15I hope all of your dreams come true on Fifth Avenue.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25Fifth Avenue, where Clare's great-great-grandfather
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Raymond Hoagland lived, has long been one of New York's
0:40:28 > 0:40:31most exclusive addresses, where it runs along the length
0:40:31 > 0:40:32of Central Park.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37Here we can see 817 Fifth Avenue.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39That looks more modern to me.
0:40:39 > 0:40:45This building was completed in 1924, after Raymond Hoagland was here.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48I happen to have a picture of what was here at the time
0:40:48 > 0:40:53the Hoaglands were here. You can see we're standing at the same spot.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56- They lived in that whole house? - Yes, absolutely.
0:40:56 > 0:40:58That is a very grand house.
0:40:58 > 0:41:00And they are right opposite the park.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04- I mean, that is a beautiful setting, isn't it?- Absolutely.
0:41:04 > 0:41:07Let's not beat around the bush - they're loaded.
0:41:07 > 0:41:10- Yes, absolutely.- They are loaded.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14Fifth Avenue, 63rd Street is the centre of New York society
0:41:14 > 0:41:16in the early 1900s.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18So, Joseph's father, Raymond, is living here.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22- Yes.- Is he the one that made the Hoagland family fortune?
0:41:22 > 0:41:25I don't think so. If you turn over this plastic sleeve,
0:41:25 > 0:41:27you'll see an article here that I'd like to show you.
0:41:27 > 0:41:31So this is from 1913 and it's about Joseph Hoagland.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34The one who was involved in New York City real estate.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38OK. "Among the most interesting and important of this spring's weddings
0:41:38 > 0:41:43"is that of Ms Eleanor Sheldon Prentis and Joseph C Hoagland,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46"who is named after his distinguished grandfather..."
0:41:46 > 0:41:50Oh, right. Joseph Hoagland is named after his grandfather and he is
0:41:50 > 0:41:52- described as distinguished. - Yes.- So who's he?
0:41:52 > 0:41:55Like, the original Joseph Hoagland?
0:41:55 > 0:41:58Perhaps if you went over to the New York Historical Society,
0:41:58 > 0:42:01you could look at the directories which give information
0:42:01 > 0:42:03about prominent families.
0:42:03 > 0:42:07Clare has discovered that her great-grandfather Joseph Hoagland
0:42:07 > 0:42:09was the grandson of another Joseph Hoagland.
0:42:12 > 0:42:15It seems Joseph senior may be the source of the family fortune.
0:42:17 > 0:42:18To find out if that's the case,
0:42:18 > 0:42:21Clare is visiting the New York Historical Society.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25She is hoping the answer might lie in city directories
0:42:25 > 0:42:28for the late 19th century.
0:42:28 > 0:42:32This is the Brooklyn city directory from 1878, 1879.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35Thank you very much.
0:42:39 > 0:42:41Let's find Hoagland.
0:42:45 > 0:42:49Hoagland. So, Joseph.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51Joseph Hoagland, baking powder.
0:42:55 > 0:42:56Baking powder?
0:42:57 > 0:43:00How would you make a fortune out of baking powder?
0:43:00 > 0:43:03It's got an address here for him, 171 Dwayne.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07Baking powder? I'm just really...
0:43:09 > 0:43:10..really surprised.
0:43:18 > 0:43:21If he made a fortune, and it's clearly a significant fortune
0:43:21 > 0:43:25if his son and his grandson are living where they are living,
0:43:25 > 0:43:27you kind of think someone might have mentioned that.
0:43:28 > 0:43:30Oh, yes, the Hoagland family fortune,
0:43:30 > 0:43:32it was built on baking powder.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36An unlikely foundation, given, but clearly quite a successful one.
0:43:38 > 0:43:42Clare is meeting culinary historian Linda Civitello.
0:43:42 > 0:43:44- Linda, hi.- Good morning, Clare.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46I thought I'd better go full New York and have a cup of coffee.
0:43:46 > 0:43:49- IMITATING NEW YORK ACCENT:- Coffee. It's cold.- Coffee, yeah.
0:43:49 > 0:43:51It's cold, it's cold.
0:43:51 > 0:43:55I was looking at my records of my great-great-great-grandfather,
0:43:55 > 0:43:59Joseph Hoagland, and it said 171 Dwayne Street.
0:43:59 > 0:44:01Yes, there it is.
0:44:02 > 0:44:08- That's very cool. - This building is this building.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13This is where Joseph Hoagland started a culinary revolution
0:44:13 > 0:44:15by manufacturing Royal Baking Powder.
0:44:15 > 0:44:17Did he invent it?
0:44:18 > 0:44:19Tell me, Linda.
0:44:19 > 0:44:24He invented new ways to market it and to advertise it
0:44:24 > 0:44:28and he made millions, tens of millions of dollars
0:44:28 > 0:44:30on Royal Baking Powder.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33Let's go inside, now that you've achieved your lifelong goal
0:44:33 > 0:44:36- of standing in New York in winter... - With a coffee!
0:44:36 > 0:44:37..talking about baking powder.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40Let's go inside and get some dynamite documents to show you.
0:44:40 > 0:44:41Oh, brilliant.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47So, what is baking powder, why is it so important?
0:44:47 > 0:44:49I mean - I genuinely mean it - I know you're laughing at me.
0:44:49 > 0:44:55Well, the very first patent for baking powder is in 1856.
0:44:55 > 0:44:59It's a powder, it's a mineral that is almost tasteless,
0:44:59 > 0:45:03colourless and what it does is it makes things rise
0:45:03 > 0:45:07and it's an absolute culinary revolution in the 19th century
0:45:07 > 0:45:12when baking powder began to replace yeast in baked goods
0:45:12 > 0:45:16because before that something like this cake would be yeast-risen.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18Yeast is a problem.
0:45:18 > 0:45:20Yeast is a primadonna.
0:45:20 > 0:45:22It's very temperamental.
0:45:22 > 0:45:26Yeast will go, "Oh, no, it's too hot, I can't make that rise,"
0:45:26 > 0:45:29or, "You didn't give me enough water," or,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32"Go away for a couple of hours, I need to rest."
0:45:32 > 0:45:35It takes hours and hours to make something with yeast
0:45:35 > 0:45:36and it takes skill.
0:45:36 > 0:45:40Baking powder doesn't care - hot, cold, wet, dry, you did it before,
0:45:40 > 0:45:42you never did it.
0:45:42 > 0:45:44Baking powder just rolls up its sleeves and comes in and
0:45:44 > 0:45:46goes, "I live to leaven"
0:45:46 > 0:45:50and that's what it does and it is 100% reliable.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53So, how does Joseph Hoagland fit into all of this?
0:45:53 > 0:45:57What does he do to take most advantage?
0:45:57 > 0:45:59Well, let's put these aside and I'll...
0:45:59 > 0:46:01- They can come my way!- Oh, OK!
0:46:01 > 0:46:03While I show you some documents.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08This is the census from 1860 in Ohio.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10Ohio? Joseph, 19.
0:46:10 > 0:46:12It says he's a student.
0:46:13 > 0:46:19Just a few years later he's in Fort Wayne, Indiana
0:46:19 > 0:46:23and he's running a pharmacy with Mr Thomas Biddle
0:46:23 > 0:46:26and his brother, Cornelius Hoagland.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30Wholesale and retail druggists and dealers in paints, oils,
0:46:30 > 0:46:33dyestuffs and proprietors of Royal Baking Powder.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36They had come up with the name Royal.
0:46:36 > 0:46:41- OK.- And they were being successful with it and I believe Joseph was the
0:46:41 > 0:46:46motive force because his brother's 12 years older than Joseph but his
0:46:46 > 0:46:49- name...- Comes before his brother, even though his brother's older.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53- Gosh.- What's going to happen here is Joseph Hoagland
0:46:53 > 0:46:59and Cornelius Hoagland are going to buy out Mr Biddle, Thomas Biddle.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02- Get rid of Biddle.- That's right, bye-bye Biddle.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07Biddle is going to stay in Fort Wayne with the pharmacy.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10He keeps everything except...
0:47:10 > 0:47:11Royal Baking Powder.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15The brothers are going to take Royal and they're going to run and they're
0:47:15 > 0:47:17moving back east to New York.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20But Biddle therefore gets something that's already up and running
0:47:20 > 0:47:22and they get the thing that they're not sure,
0:47:22 > 0:47:24- I guess, whether it's going to work or not.- They get the risk.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28They're the entrepreneurs here because even at this
0:47:28 > 0:47:31point they knew they wanted to be national and global
0:47:31 > 0:47:35and they knew they couldn't do it from Fort Wayne, Indiana.
0:47:37 > 0:47:40Joseph Hoagland and his brother moved Royal Baking Powder
0:47:40 > 0:47:44to New York at a time when business was undergoing a transformation
0:47:44 > 0:47:45in America.
0:47:46 > 0:47:50New corporations, often headed up by powerful individuals,
0:47:50 > 0:47:53were forging vast national companies for the first time.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56Andrew Carnegie dominated the market in steel,
0:47:56 > 0:48:00JP Morgan in finance and the Rockefellers in oil.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Joseph Hoagland used similar business methods to grow Royal
0:48:04 > 0:48:06and fought off competition
0:48:06 > 0:48:10from hundreds of other baking powder companies by his pioneering use
0:48:10 > 0:48:12of new marketing techniques.
0:48:13 > 0:48:19Advertising and marketing is where your great-great-great-grandfather
0:48:19 > 0:48:21really excelled.
0:48:21 > 0:48:22That's... That is an actual tin?
0:48:22 > 0:48:26- Yes, it is.- Oh, my God.
0:48:26 > 0:48:27They are branding themselves.
0:48:27 > 0:48:32They were one of the first people to engage in branding and also
0:48:32 > 0:48:37advertising. I mean, these are things that are extremely modern -
0:48:37 > 0:48:40I mean, these are taught in business school now,
0:48:40 > 0:48:45to, you know, have a brand name that's recognisable and memorable,
0:48:45 > 0:48:49have a slogan - all of this they did.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51They just knew this, again, way ahead of their time.
0:48:51 > 0:48:52What was their slogan?
0:48:52 > 0:48:54Well, let's see what repeats here.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57Absolutely pure. Absolutely pure.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00- Yeah.- Essentially they're holding their place in the market not
0:49:00 > 0:49:02necessarily because they've got superior product
0:49:02 > 0:49:05but they're better at the advertising and the packaging.
0:49:05 > 0:49:06They've got superior advertising.
0:49:06 > 0:49:12- Right.- Yes. And we see this also in this advertising journal,
0:49:12 > 0:49:17which uses Royal as an example to other businesses
0:49:17 > 0:49:18of how to market your product.
0:49:18 > 0:49:22So Royal Baking Powder is advertising every principle paper in
0:49:22 > 0:49:24every county seat in America.
0:49:24 > 0:49:28Result - concern worth 25 million.
0:49:29 > 0:49:33The equivalent today would be over 3 billion.
0:49:34 > 0:49:40Royal was national and global and by the end of the 19th century
0:49:40 > 0:49:45Royal was on every continent except Antarctica.
0:49:45 > 0:49:48And you think, at the heart of all this is a guy
0:49:48 > 0:49:51- called Joseph Hoagland. - Genius.- Yeah.
0:49:57 > 0:49:58That conversation makes me think,
0:49:58 > 0:50:02what sort qualities does a man like Joseph Hoagland have
0:50:02 > 0:50:06to be able to take a risk the way he did and throw it all in
0:50:06 > 0:50:09to the ingredient bowl, if you will,
0:50:09 > 0:50:12that has baking powder at its centre?
0:50:13 > 0:50:15I'm going to meet Professor Clifton Hood.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17He's an expert on the history of wealthy New Yorkers
0:50:17 > 0:50:21and I'm hoping he can tell me more about Joseph Hoagland.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27Cliff, I've become a bit obsessed with Joseph C Hoagland
0:50:27 > 0:50:30and what sort of a man he might have been.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33- Would you like to see what he looked like?- Yes.- Here we go.
0:50:34 > 0:50:39- Oh.- This is him. This is from a book called King's Notable New Yorkers.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41He kind of looks a sort of man you wouldn't mess with.
0:50:41 > 0:50:43I think that's really true.
0:50:43 > 0:50:49He is managing a massive corporation and you have to be smart and shrewd
0:50:49 > 0:50:52and, in a way, ruthless to survive to get to the top as he did
0:50:52 > 0:50:54and that photograph really shows that he made it to the top.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56It's really pretty amazing.
0:50:56 > 0:50:59Do we have any sense of whether he was a nice man or not?
0:50:59 > 0:51:01Why don't we take a look at a Brooklyn Eagle article
0:51:01 > 0:51:03which goes into some family disputes?
0:51:03 > 0:51:05I'm now very worried, Cliff.
0:51:05 > 0:51:11And if you scroll down here this is Cornelius Hoagland speaking
0:51:11 > 0:51:15- about his brother, Joseph. - "Suffice to say in a general way
0:51:15 > 0:51:18"that his faculty for making uncomfortable
0:51:18 > 0:51:21"everybody he comes in contact with is unsurpassed.
0:51:21 > 0:51:25"There is much in his belief that he is the mainspring of all success.
0:51:25 > 0:51:28"Much in a thousand other eccentricities."
0:51:28 > 0:51:33So actually what he's saying is he's egotistical, he's difficult,
0:51:33 > 0:51:37he's arrogant, and he's selfish.
0:51:37 > 0:51:41And he's ruthless and yet when you think of what Cornelius is saying
0:51:41 > 0:51:43about his brother views himself as the spring of all success,
0:51:43 > 0:51:46there's a certain amount of truth to that because he was the spring
0:51:46 > 0:51:48of the success of the Royal Baking Powder Company
0:51:48 > 0:51:51but I think it answers your question, is he a nice person?
0:51:51 > 0:51:53- He couldn't afford to be.- Right.
0:51:53 > 0:51:58You might also want to know that he dies at a very early age in 1899 and
0:51:58 > 0:52:01this is actually his death notice from the Brooklyn Eagle.
0:52:01 > 0:52:04Oh, so that says he leaves two sons, John A and Raymond,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07and Raymond's the one I'm related to.
0:52:08 > 0:52:12"Joseph Christoffel Hoagland was of Dutch extraction and a descendant of
0:52:12 > 0:52:14"the early settlers in New Amsterdam."
0:52:14 > 0:52:17Right and new Amsterdam is the name for early New York City.
0:52:17 > 0:52:21New York City was founded in the 1620s by the Dutch
0:52:21 > 0:52:25and it remains Dutch until the 1660s and by the time you get
0:52:25 > 0:52:30to the 19th century, people who would claim they're descended
0:52:30 > 0:52:34from the Dutch could point to that as being a point of distinction.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37You're viewing yourself as descended by some of
0:52:37 > 0:52:39the people who founded the country.
0:52:39 > 0:52:42And would you trust that? I mean, is that definitely accurate?
0:52:42 > 0:52:44Not from this document itself.
0:52:44 > 0:52:48I would want to go back and have some other primary proof.
0:52:48 > 0:52:50There are genealogies that I've looked at
0:52:50 > 0:52:53in the New York Public Library that are best described as fiction.
0:52:53 > 0:52:56So I think we have the take this with...
0:52:56 > 0:53:00- A pinch of baking powder. - A pinch of baking powder!
0:53:05 > 0:53:08I've got a real picture now of Joseph Hoagland Sr.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11He's a risk taker, he's a visionary,
0:53:11 > 0:53:15he's a ruthless businessman, but I'm really keen to know
0:53:15 > 0:53:17whether he was pretending to be Dutch
0:53:17 > 0:53:20to give himself a slightly more distinguished air
0:53:20 > 0:53:23or whether he really was of Dutch ancestry,
0:53:23 > 0:53:27because if he was of Dutch ancestry then he made New York.
0:53:28 > 0:53:29And it's all mine!
0:53:36 > 0:53:38Clare's come to the Brooklyn Historical Society
0:53:38 > 0:53:42to meet genealogist Roger Josslyn.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44Roger, hi. I understand you're my man.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47- Oh, I hope so, Clare. Nice to meet you.- And you.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49Please, let's have a seat.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53So, Roger, what I've learnt so far about Joseph Hoagland -
0:53:53 > 0:53:58he was fabulously wealthy, he set up the Royal Baking Powder Company.
0:53:58 > 0:54:03When I looked at his death notice it said that he was of Dutch ancestry,
0:54:03 > 0:54:06like, right from the early settlers of New Amsterdam.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08I've no idea whether that's true or not.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12Well, I'd like to show you something I think you'll really enjoy.
0:54:12 > 0:54:13It's this book here.
0:54:13 > 0:54:15- OK.- Please have a look.
0:54:15 > 0:54:19The History And Genealogy of the Hoagland Family in America.
0:54:19 > 0:54:22- There's a whole book about them? - There's a whole book.
0:54:23 > 0:54:28- Beautiful. Oh, Hooghlande. - Hooghlande.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32So, it says, "History and genealogy of the Hoagland family in America
0:54:32 > 0:54:36"from their first settlement at New Amsterdam."
0:54:36 > 0:54:37He's not making it up.
0:54:37 > 0:54:41Ah, published by Doctor Cornelius N Hoagland - that's his older brother.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44And I think further in the book it says he actually financed
0:54:44 > 0:54:45getting this done.
0:54:45 > 0:54:49Now, Roger, call me cynical, but is this a source we can trust?
0:54:49 > 0:54:53If he financed it and he published it, can we trust him?
0:54:53 > 0:54:54Well, it turns out we can.
0:54:54 > 0:54:58I have verified it through independent research,
0:54:58 > 0:55:00- through many sources. - You believe it, do you?
0:55:00 > 0:55:01- Through my research.- Really?
0:55:01 > 0:55:03- Yes.- You've double-checked this and it's true.
0:55:03 > 0:55:09Triple-checked. They come from the earliest Dutch settlers to New York,
0:55:09 > 0:55:11which is a big deal in America.
0:55:11 > 0:55:16And not just early settlers but...
0:55:17 > 0:55:20..as we can look at here, there's your Joseph.
0:55:20 > 0:55:21So, he's the one we've been doing.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23There was an Andrew back then, my brother's called Andrew.
0:55:23 > 0:55:27Henry Hoogland and that's where the spelling changes.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30- Yes.- And then who's this? - Sarah Rapelje.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33She is your ten-times-great-grandmother
0:55:33 > 0:55:38and she is the purported first European woman born
0:55:38 > 0:55:42in what is now New York from the first comers.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45- The very first one born here?- Very first, she has that distinction.
0:55:47 > 0:55:52And we know from good sources that this is indeed correct.
0:55:52 > 0:55:54- Seriously?- Seriously.
0:55:54 > 0:55:56So the mother of New York.
0:55:57 > 0:56:01- Indeed.- Yes!- Indeed. - What's the Dutch for bingo?
0:56:01 > 0:56:02She was first.
0:56:02 > 0:56:06- She drew the straw.- But that is, I mean, as a piece of history,
0:56:06 > 0:56:09- that's amazing.- It is amazing.
0:56:12 > 0:56:13Gosh.
0:56:14 > 0:56:16Well!
0:56:16 > 0:56:18Now I feel Dutch!
0:56:20 > 0:56:21- I wasn't expecting that.- Yes!
0:56:25 > 0:56:29I've just been e-mailing my dad and my aunt Gail to say,
0:56:29 > 0:56:30"Did you know this?!"
0:56:30 > 0:56:34The Hoaglands are descended from the very first European woman
0:56:34 > 0:56:35to be born in New York.
0:56:37 > 0:56:38It's all a lot to take in.
0:56:44 > 0:56:49When we started out on this I never thought we'd end up in New York
0:56:49 > 0:56:53and I certainly didn't think that anybody that I was related to
0:56:53 > 0:56:56would have been so instrumental in the building of New York
0:56:56 > 0:56:59and I don't just mean going right back to the first settlers -
0:56:59 > 0:57:02I mean for the Royal Baking Powder Company, as well.
0:57:04 > 0:57:06I'm really glad that we discovered this,
0:57:06 > 0:57:11that we went on that line because it... I think, in our family,
0:57:11 > 0:57:14it's been neglected, it's never really been talked about.
0:57:14 > 0:57:16I'd never even heard Royal Baking Powder mentioned
0:57:16 > 0:57:20and you'd think that's a pretty significant thing, isn't it?
0:57:25 > 0:57:28I feel now less like a tourist.
0:57:28 > 0:57:31In a way I guess I feel more connected to America
0:57:31 > 0:57:33and to New York.
0:57:34 > 0:57:37And maybe there's a hustle and bustle and something to it,
0:57:37 > 0:57:40that deep within is significant to me.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44It's a pretty cool place, isn't it?