0:00:02 > 0:00:05Emma Willis is a model, DJ, and TV presenter.
0:00:07 > 0:00:09Look over your right shoulder at the end.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13She's best known as the face of Big Brother.
0:00:16 > 0:00:20Emma grew up in Birmingham with her mum and dad, and two sisters.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24I always just wanted to work in a hospital,
0:00:24 > 0:00:25like, that's what my mum did.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29But when I was 17, I had the opportunity to do a career
0:00:29 > 0:00:34that I never thought would ever happen to somebody like me.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37Emma is married to Matt Willis from boy band Busted.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40They live in Hertfordshire with their three children.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I think we have quite an open house.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47And I feel like I grew up that way,
0:00:47 > 0:00:51there was always family members round the corner, in the garden,
0:00:51 > 0:00:56down the street. It was like that kind of typical, old-fashioned
0:00:56 > 0:01:01working-class, everybody gets mucked in, everybody helps raise you.
0:01:06 > 0:01:07Thank you!
0:01:07 > 0:01:10I come from a kind family.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14And I hope that that has been history repeating itself.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19I know nothing past my grandparents on either side.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25And I think I've got to a point in my life where I want to know more,
0:01:25 > 0:01:29I want to know more about me, I want to know more
0:01:29 > 0:01:31about where I came from.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33I don't know what's about to unfold,
0:01:33 > 0:01:35and I don't know what's about to happen.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39Hopefully, it's a positive outcome.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44I mean, we all want to have a nice story, right?
0:02:19 > 0:02:21So, we're off to Birmingham.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25Because I figure the best place to start would be with my parents.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29I know, definitely, my dad knew his grandparents.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32So I'm hoping they'll be able to tell me a little bit more
0:02:32 > 0:02:34than what I already know.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38Birmingham is my home, that's where I'm from.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40That's where my family are, you know.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42They're all still there.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46And I still have a bedroom at my parent's house.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49And they'd better never get rid of it!
0:02:51 > 0:02:56I think, even getting the train, I love it because I hear home like,
0:02:56 > 0:02:58everywhere. Like, I walk down the carriage
0:02:58 > 0:03:00and I hear a Birmingham accent and I'm like, "I'm nearly home".
0:03:04 > 0:03:07I would really, really love it
0:03:07 > 0:03:13if we had deep-rooted ancestry in Birmingham.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15It would be quite special, I think.
0:03:27 > 0:03:28Hello.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30Hello, Em.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32You OK?
0:03:32 > 0:03:33- Yeah, how are you?- You all right, Ems?
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Hello, Pop. You all right?
0:03:35 > 0:03:36- Yeah, good.- Good.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40- We've got some photos to show you. - Have you?- Yes.- Oh!
0:03:40 > 0:03:41SHE SQUEALS EXCITEDLY
0:03:45 > 0:03:51- Oh, look, there's your mum and dad. - Yeah.- Aw!- Seen enough of you!
0:03:51 > 0:03:53And they're your Nan and Grandad.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Bill and Edna.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58That's always how I remember her face.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02- Always smiling.- I think that's how we all still see her, don't we?
0:04:02 > 0:04:03Yeah, yeah.
0:04:05 > 0:04:06And dancing.
0:04:07 > 0:04:08Yes.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10They were great grandparents, weren't they?
0:04:10 > 0:04:13- Yeah.- Not as in great-grandparents, but they were.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19- Stop it!- They looked after you from when you was a baby,
0:04:19 > 0:04:21- when you were born.- I know.- You know, they were so good.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25But you don't really appreciate it until you get older.
0:04:25 > 0:04:26Sorry!
0:04:27 > 0:04:31This is a wedding photo of your nan and grandad.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34That would have been in 1950.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36He looks really dapper.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38And she looks beautiful in, like, her dress.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40But they didn't really have anything, did they?
0:04:41 > 0:04:44- How do you mean?- From a financial perspective.
0:04:44 > 0:04:48- Oh, no, no.- Yet they look amazing on their wedding day.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51- Yeah.- I mean, obviously they didn't have a lot of money,
0:04:51 > 0:04:53they're just ordinary working class.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58This here, that is, that's my Nan.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00So that's your great-grandmother.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02- On your...- On my nan's side?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05- Yeah.- That's Edna's mum?
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Right. Her name was Evelyn, they used to call her Eva.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11- Eva Gebhard?- Yeah.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14- You wouldn't want to mess with her, would you?- No!
0:05:15 > 0:05:18When I look at that picture, I think of Peaky Blinders!
0:05:18 > 0:05:21- Yes, yes.- That would have been the era, probably.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Do you know what I mean? She looks like she's a grafter, though.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27- Oh, yeah, yeah.- Do you know anything about her husband?
0:05:27 > 0:05:29Your grandad? Do you remember him?
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Yeah, he was around, we've got pictures of him.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34His name was Martin James Gebhard.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36- Oh, OK.- Giving Edna away on her wedding day.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Yeah. By trade he was a plasterer.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41They're all quite handy then, really?
0:05:41 > 0:05:43- Yes.- Grafters.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47I like that. Do you know anything further back than him?
0:05:47 > 0:05:50- We've come across one...- Have you heard anything?
0:05:50 > 0:05:53We've just come across one photo, one older photo.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56This is Martin's mum.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Her name was Alice Maud Gretton before she married.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03So that would be your great, great-grandmother.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07- What do we know about her? - We know she's from Birmingham.
0:06:08 > 0:06:13And I've got this envelope which has got more information on Alice.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16- Can I take these then?- Yeah, yeah, sure, yes.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19Emma wants to explore her dad's side of the family.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24She's found a photo going back four generations to her two-times
0:06:24 > 0:06:26great-grandmother, Alice Maud Gretton.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35My dad's pulled it out of the bag today
0:06:35 > 0:06:39because I didn't know he had pictures that went so far back.
0:06:39 > 0:06:44And I certainly have never seen the picture of Alice Gretton.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48So to find out if she originally comes from here,
0:06:48 > 0:06:52and if our bloodline has Birmingham roots, would be fantastic.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54Look at that, coffee art!
0:06:54 > 0:06:56- I love it.- Ten years not wasted!
0:06:56 > 0:06:57Thank you very much.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03This is the envelope my dad gave me.
0:07:03 > 0:07:09Right, OK. So this is a marriage certificate.
0:07:12 > 0:07:17And Alice Maud Gretton married Martin Gebhard.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21In 1878.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23In Aston, so they were in Birmingham.
0:07:24 > 0:07:25She was 18.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29She was young. And he was 26.
0:07:29 > 0:07:35Alice Gretton's father was James Gretton, who was a hair merchant.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39What's a hair merchant?
0:07:42 > 0:07:44Maybe we can find out a bit more about him.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50Which would be my three-times great-grandfather.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56OK. First name, James.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Last name, Gretton.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03O N. Place your ancestor might have lived. Birmingham.
0:08:04 > 0:08:10And keyword, which is my new favourite two words,
0:08:10 > 0:08:12hair merchant.
0:08:19 > 0:08:20Oh.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22James Gretton, horn and hair merchant.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Which makes me think he was a merchant of horns and hair!
0:08:28 > 0:08:32But then it says, and dealer in English and foreign sizing.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33Which makes me think it's clothing.
0:08:35 > 0:08:40So I don't really understand the terminology.
0:08:40 > 0:08:45And the address that's on here for him is 61, Lower Trinity Street.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47It's obviously in Birmingham.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Maybe I should go there.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54And I don't know, see if there's anything that can tell me any more.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01Emma's on her way to see where her three-times great-grandfather,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04James Gretton, was based.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06For me, Birmingham's the best place in the world.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Here she is, the Bullring.
0:09:14 > 0:09:15Such a funny building, though.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22This is where all the pubs and clubs and bars are.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27And on the weekend, it's just awash of people
0:09:27 > 0:09:31having the time of their life.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36Of course I've never done that!
0:09:40 > 0:09:41Thank you.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Emma's arranged to meet Birmingham historian Carl Chinn.
0:09:46 > 0:09:47- Hello.- How are you?- How are you?
0:09:47 > 0:09:50- I'm all right.- Yeah?- So you're in the back streets of Birmingham now!
0:09:50 > 0:09:52I am in the back streets of Birmingham!
0:09:52 > 0:09:56- Tell me what you want to know.- I want to know about James Gretton.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58- Yeah.- My three-times great-grandfather.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00- OK.- I wonder if you know who that is?
0:10:00 > 0:10:04- I have no idea.- That's James. - Is it?!- Yeah.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08- No!- Yeah, that's James Gretton. Your three-times great-grandfather.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11He's got my dad's eyes.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16- Has he?- Yeah, kind of heavy lidded and little.
0:10:16 > 0:10:21All I know is that he either lived or worked on Lower Trinity Street.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Yeah, he lived here, down there on the right.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27So he lived here, or worked here, or lived and worked here?
0:10:27 > 0:10:29He lived and worked here.
0:10:29 > 0:10:30- OK.- The street pattern's the same.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34The pub over there, the Wagon and Horses, was there in the 1850s.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37- So he might've been in that pub? - Yeah, could well have done.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40What I'm most baffled about is his job.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42When I read the documents about him,
0:10:42 > 0:10:45it said he was a horn and hair merchant.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48Which I, literally, am like, what?
0:10:49 > 0:10:51I find him at the age of 14, he's a brush maker.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55- Is he?- And he would have been making his brushes, probably for ladies,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57and the handle would be made of animal horn.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Right, OK. So the horn was the handle and the hair was the brush?
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Yes. And the hair would have been horses' hair.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08- Ah, right. So he made hair brushes? - Yes.- Why didn't they just say that!
0:11:10 > 0:11:15Now, later on, in 1851, he's moving away now from making brushes,
0:11:15 > 0:11:17but now he's becoming a merchant.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20He's buying and selling horn and hair.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23One of the other things that he does, he makes glue and size.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26Size is a watered-down version of glue.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30You make glue with animal waste.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34- Bits of skin, the noses, the ears, the tendons.- Do you?
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Yeah. You boil it and you get the collagen.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41- Right.- And it's the collagen, the thick, gooey substance,
0:11:41 > 0:11:42that makes the glue.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45- Right.- And he's typical of the small gaffers of Birmingham.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48- Gaffer, he's a gaffer?- Yeah, bosses. - Was he?- He's a small gaffer.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51- OK.- So don't forget, Birmingham was the city of a thousand trades.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54That means there's a lot of small workshops as well as big factories.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57- OK.- You could become a small gaffer if you're a skilled man.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59So he's doing well.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01I've got some documents to show you.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04This is a legal case that they're reporting.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07"Important nuisance information.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11"James Bliss, Inspector of Nuisances for the borough,
0:12:11 > 0:12:15"proffered a charge against Mr James Gretton of Lower Trinity Street,
0:12:15 > 0:12:17"horn and hair factor,
0:12:17 > 0:12:20"for carrying on that business in such a manner
0:12:20 > 0:12:24"as to create a nuisance and be injurious to health."
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Is creating a nuisance kind of a big thing back then?
0:12:28 > 0:12:31Yeah, it's, like, very much like environmental health.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34- Oh, right, OK.- So you'd have an Inspector of Nuisances,
0:12:34 > 0:12:35which Birmingham had.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38In the mid-19th century,
0:12:38 > 0:12:41the population of Birmingham had almost doubled in 20 years.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45It was dirty and overcrowded.
0:12:47 > 0:12:48To clean up the city,
0:12:48 > 0:12:51nuisance inspectors were appointed to report on anything
0:12:51 > 0:12:53that posed a threat to public health.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01So they're basically saying his business was not welcome
0:13:01 > 0:13:03and that it was a danger to people's health?
0:13:03 > 0:13:05Now, can you imagine...
0:13:05 > 0:13:08The smells coming from boiling all that waste of animals, yeah.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11So a lot of people think they're going to get diseases.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13- OK.- And they can get some diseases, Emma.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15- Anthrax.- What?
0:13:15 > 0:13:19Terrible disease, that can be from infected animals.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23So a lot of people have complained, but then a bit later on...
0:13:23 > 0:13:25"Mr John Suckling, for the defence,
0:13:25 > 0:13:29"put in a memorial signed by more than 100 neighbours
0:13:29 > 0:13:35"stating that Mr Gretton's business was not a nuisance, nor injurious."
0:13:35 > 0:13:37Right, so there's a battle going on, basically?
0:13:37 > 0:13:39- Yeah, yeah.- Some of the community are saying
0:13:39 > 0:13:41that he's the cause of it, all the disease that's going round
0:13:41 > 0:13:44at the minute. The other half of the community are backing him,
0:13:44 > 0:13:46saying it's nothing to do with him.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50So why would 100 neighbours support him, do you think?
0:13:50 > 0:13:53Well, it could be some of the poor, he's providing work around here.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56- Right, OK.- You need jobs if you're poor.- You do, yeah.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01To help Emma understand why James Gretton's business
0:14:01 > 0:14:04caused a nuisance, Carl is taking her
0:14:04 > 0:14:08to some working class Victorian houses, now preserved as a museum.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13The amount of times I've walked past here...
0:14:13 > 0:14:15and not even known that this existed.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22Now, your great, great, great-grandfather,
0:14:22 > 0:14:26he would have had something like this yard.
0:14:26 > 0:14:27Probably two thirds of this, I would have thought.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30- Yeah.- What we've got to understand is,
0:14:30 > 0:14:32can you see how tight it would have been?
0:14:32 > 0:14:34- Yeah.- People living on top of each other.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36- Overcrowded, yeah.- And you can imagine, can't you,
0:14:36 > 0:14:38the smells coming from James's yard.
0:14:39 > 0:14:45- I'm getting a well-painted picture of work life...- Yeah.
0:14:45 > 0:14:46..and what he did,
0:14:46 > 0:14:49and the trouble he was kind of in at that time in court.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53- Yeah.- So what about his wife and the children?
0:14:53 > 0:14:56- Well, here's the 1861 census. - OK.
0:14:56 > 0:14:581861.
0:14:58 > 0:14:59So if we read along there...
0:14:59 > 0:15:01"Lower Trinity Street."
0:15:01 > 0:15:03So you've got James Gretton, who's the head.
0:15:04 > 0:15:10- Mary...- And there's an A afterwards, which is probably for Ann.
0:15:10 > 0:15:11All right, so Mary Ann Gretton.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14- His wife.- Yeah, who is your three-times...
0:15:14 > 0:15:15Great-grandmother!
0:15:17 > 0:15:20- And that is...Mary.- Is that her?! - That's Mary.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25Oh, my God. Her hair looks nice,
0:15:25 > 0:15:27but then she's got enough brushes, probably!
0:15:29 > 0:15:33Emma wants to find Mary Ann and James Gretton's daughter,
0:15:33 > 0:15:36her great, great-grandmother, Alice Maud Gretton.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40She was born in 1860, a year before this census was taken.
0:15:43 > 0:15:44Clifford is nine, son.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47- Yeah.- So he's got a son, who's nine.
0:15:47 > 0:15:48Yeah.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51- Agnes is eight.- Yeah.- Clara is six.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55And there's no Alice.
0:15:55 > 0:15:56No Alice.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59This is another census return.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01- OK.- For...
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Heath Mill Lane.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Abraham Readding.
0:16:05 > 0:16:06Hannah, his wife.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09- Yeah.- And Alice Maud Gretton.
0:16:09 > 0:16:14- Yeah.- So why was she living with Abraham Readding
0:16:14 > 0:16:17and Hannah Readding?
0:16:17 > 0:16:19When she's only one?
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Had they given her up, would they have given her up?
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Perhaps the mum, your great, great, great-grandmother...
0:16:25 > 0:16:26- Mary Ann.- Yeah.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Is thinking, smelly, there's a stench here...
0:16:29 > 0:16:32Not good for such a small child.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34No, all this hair. What do babies do when they're crawling around?
0:16:34 > 0:16:36Yeah, they crawl and their hands are in their mouths.
0:16:36 > 0:16:37It might be that's the reason.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39- Right.- Health reasons.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44So do you know anything about what happened next,
0:16:44 > 0:16:46what happened with the nuisance report?
0:16:46 > 0:16:49Have a read of the London Gazette.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50Yeah.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53It's a notice to the court.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56"As directed by the Bankruptcy Act.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01"Name and description of the debtor as in the deed, James Gretton."
0:17:03 > 0:17:05- So he's gone bankrupt.- Bankrupt.
0:17:05 > 0:17:06Now he's fallen on harder times.
0:17:06 > 0:17:08He's gone bankrupt.
0:17:08 > 0:17:09Alice isn't living with him.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11- Yeah.- What happened to the family next?
0:17:11 > 0:17:13For that question to be answered,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16- my advice would be to see a family historian.- OK.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23I kind of feel like he was doing quite well,
0:17:23 > 0:17:26but then it all just kind of fell away from underneath him.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33I don't know why they didn't have Alice living with them
0:17:33 > 0:17:35when she was so young.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40The only thing actually I can imagine as a mum
0:17:40 > 0:17:44of a one-year-old myself was that for her own health and safety,
0:17:44 > 0:17:47she shouldn't have been in that environment.
0:17:47 > 0:17:52And from what we've heard, with the nuisance report,
0:17:52 > 0:17:54that would, kind of, make sense.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59Because I can't see how you would otherwise not have your baby
0:17:59 > 0:18:01living with you.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09So now, now I want to know what happened to Alice.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11Did she go over to live with the rest of the family?
0:18:11 > 0:18:14That's what I need to know next.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16Emma has come to Birmingham library
0:18:16 > 0:18:19where she's meeting genealogist Olivia Robinson.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23- Hi, Olivia, how are you doing?- Nice to meet you.- Nice to meet you too.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27I don't know whether I should be excited or nervous.
0:18:30 > 0:18:35OK. So, so far I have got pictures
0:18:35 > 0:18:40of my three-times great-grandparents,
0:18:40 > 0:18:44- James and Mary Ann Gretton. - Excellent.
0:18:44 > 0:18:49They had a baby who was one, called Alice.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51Who was my two-times great-grandmother,
0:18:51 > 0:18:53who wasn't living with them.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57So what I don't know is what happened to the family and to Alice.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02This is the census from 1871.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04So this takes you ten years forward.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08- Yeah.- If you can see, here's Alice Gretton.
0:19:08 > 0:19:09- So she's back with them.- She's back.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13Good, that's what, that's what I really wanted to happen.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15James Gretton.
0:19:15 > 0:19:1644.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21Helena, wife, 42.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25Who's Helena? And where's Mary Ann?
0:19:25 > 0:19:30What we haven't found is a marriage certificate for James and Helena.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35So I don't believe that they married.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38But she is living with him.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42Right. Clifford, son, 20,
0:19:42 > 0:19:45Agnes, daughter, 18.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Clara, daughter, 17.
0:19:47 > 0:19:48Alice, daughter, ten.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52Lily, who's five.
0:19:52 > 0:19:57This is the birth certificate for the little Lily, at the bottom.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59OK.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03So March 1868,
0:20:03 > 0:20:06Lily Helena Gretton, girl.
0:20:06 > 0:20:11This is Lily, the child of James and Helena.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13Do we know what happened to Mary Ann?
0:20:13 > 0:20:17This may give you a clue as to what happened to Mary Ann
0:20:17 > 0:20:18in the same period.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22So it's another, another birth certificate.
0:20:25 > 0:20:2818th of July 1867.
0:20:28 > 0:20:35Mary Ann, a girl, name of father, Joseph Kilby.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41Name, surname of mother, Mary Ann Kilby.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44But she hasn't, she hasn't given Gretton, she hasn't mentioned it.
0:20:45 > 0:20:50Mary Ann had her child with Joseph Kilby in London.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Oh, where are we?
0:20:52 > 0:20:55St Martin-in-the-Fields in the county of Middlesex.
0:20:55 > 0:21:00Joseph Kilby may not have been aware that she was married or had another
0:21:00 > 0:21:02- family.- She's a right one!
0:21:02 > 0:21:05Secret lives in London!
0:21:05 > 0:21:08- Exactly. So on the evidence we have...- There are two illegitimate children.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10There are two illegitimate children, yes.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Emma has learned that her three-times great-grandparents
0:21:15 > 0:21:20James and Mary Ann both met new partners and had a child with them.
0:21:23 > 0:21:30Did things like this happen a lot, or is this quite a rare situation
0:21:30 > 0:21:33to kind of find both parties in?
0:21:33 > 0:21:38I haven't seen anything quite like this where each married partner
0:21:38 > 0:21:41finds a new partner and has a child with them within a year.
0:21:41 > 0:21:47- It's not impossible, and it's not unheard of, it's unusual.- Rare.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49Yes, very unusual!
0:21:51 > 0:21:52This is too much.
0:21:54 > 0:21:55The whole way down this line...
0:21:58 > 0:22:01..the parents have always stayed together.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05My parents, my dad's parents, her parents, do you know what I mean?
0:22:05 > 0:22:07- Yeah, yeah. - Wow.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09What happened to James?
0:22:10 > 0:22:11Entry of death.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Oh, no.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15This is what I didn't want to see.
0:22:15 > 0:22:16I like James!
0:22:18 > 0:22:24February 1899, James Gretton, male, 72.
0:22:24 > 0:22:29Cause of death, senility and exhaustion.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31So he'd gone senile.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34- Yes.- Did that have the same meaning back then as it does now?
0:22:34 > 0:22:37Yes, it would have meant that he couldn't care for himself.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41When and where he died, workhouse infirmary.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43So could he have been working at the workhouse?
0:22:43 > 0:22:47No, if he had been in the workhouse, they call them inmates.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51He would have been treated slightly better than the people who were just
0:22:51 > 0:22:53inmates in the workhouse.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58What is quite nice about this record is that his son...
0:22:58 > 0:23:02- Clifford.- ..Clifford was actually in attendance.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04Clifford could simply have registered his death.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08But in attendance means he was actually there.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12- When it happened.- Yeah.- So he may not have lived with his children,
0:23:12 > 0:23:14but they were still very much around him.
0:23:14 > 0:23:15It certainly looks that way.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20Oh, no, how sad.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27Even though I don't physically know James Gretton...
0:23:29 > 0:23:33..I've become really attached to him in a really short period of time.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36He seems to have had a life of ups and downs.
0:23:36 > 0:23:41And it does seem apparent that he always had his children around him.
0:23:43 > 0:23:44And he had love.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50The one thing that I wanted to find...
0:23:51 > 0:23:54..within this, was that we had solid...
0:23:55 > 0:24:01..authentic roots in this brilliant city, that I absolutely love.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03And James Gretton has given me that.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06This is where we're from.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08We are true Brummies.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17I want to know where the rest of my family come from.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19Cos it's not just one bloodline, right.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21They're sprouting off everywhere.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23So where... Are we all from here?
0:24:30 > 0:24:32Emma is back home in Hertfordshire.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35Her dad's done some more research into his side of the family.
0:24:39 > 0:24:43OK. So "Hi, Em, I've been doing a bit more digging around for you
0:24:43 > 0:24:49"and I've found a certificate from my great-grandma, Margaret Kirwan.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51"She is your two-times great-grandma
0:24:51 > 0:24:53"and she was born in Dublin."
0:24:57 > 0:25:01Margaret Kirwan, born November, 1862,
0:25:01 > 0:25:05to Michael Kirwan and Harriet...Fowler.
0:25:07 > 0:25:08In Dublin.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15Better go to Dublin, then!
0:25:17 > 0:25:20Emma now wants to find out about her Irish ancestors
0:25:20 > 0:25:21on her father's side.
0:25:21 > 0:25:26Margaret Kirwan and her parents Harriet Fowler and Michael Kirwan.
0:25:32 > 0:25:37I've hitched a ride on a ferry because now I'm on the trail
0:25:37 > 0:25:41of my great, great-grandmother, a woman called Margaret Kirwan.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46I had absolutely no idea that we had any Irish on my dad's side.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50I really don't know what I'm hoping for at the other end.
0:25:50 > 0:25:55I think in the whole process, I've tried to go into it,
0:25:55 > 0:25:56having no expectations.
0:26:04 > 0:26:08Emma's heading to the Registry of Deeds which holds records
0:26:08 > 0:26:10dating back to the 18th century.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13She's meeting genealogist John Grennam.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18- Emma.- Hi, John.- Nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you too.
0:26:18 > 0:26:19- Come on in.- Thank you.
0:26:23 > 0:26:28John, so far I know that my great, great-grandmother
0:26:28 > 0:26:32was called Margaret Kirwan and she was born in Dublin.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34OK, that's a great start.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37Here's the record of the marriage of her parents.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40So on the 22nd of October 1861,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Michael Kirwan married Harriet Fowler.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46- If you look at the surnames there, Kirwan and Fowler...- Yeah.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48They're...
0:26:48 > 0:26:52Kirwan is a typical Irish, Gaelic Irish surname.
0:26:52 > 0:26:57Comes from O'Ciardhubhan, meaning grandson of the dark-haired fellow.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59- OK.- OK.- So it's a good Gaelic Irish name.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Good, solid Irish name.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03That's a bull's-eye for Gaelic there.
0:27:03 > 0:27:08- OK.- All right? Whereas Fowler is obviously an English surname.
0:27:08 > 0:27:09Eastenders, right!
0:27:09 > 0:27:12- Absolutely.- So are we mixing, here?
0:27:12 > 0:27:15I think we are. He's from a Catholic background
0:27:15 > 0:27:16and she's from a Protestant background,
0:27:16 > 0:27:18that's what I would read it as.
0:27:18 > 0:27:19- OK.- I think if you see as well,
0:27:19 > 0:27:22the marriage is taking place at the Registrar's Office.
0:27:22 > 0:27:27- Yeah.- And the reason for Registrar's Office marriage or Registry Office
0:27:27 > 0:27:30marriage, is, at this period at least,
0:27:30 > 0:27:33almost always because it's a mixed marriage.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37My mum is Catholic, and my dad is Church of England.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39But they married and I don't think that was ever a problem.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41But that was in the '60s.
0:27:41 > 0:27:46- Yeah.- How would it have been looked on in 1861?
0:27:46 > 0:27:48It would have been hard.
0:27:48 > 0:27:52They were going against his church and her church.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54- Yeah.- This is almost certainly a love match.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57This is not an arranged marriage.
0:27:57 > 0:27:59And that's what this looks like to me.
0:27:59 > 0:28:03Father's name, oh, so his dad's name is Michael Kirwan as well.
0:28:03 > 0:28:07- The groom's father.- And he was a marble mason.- Mm-hm.
0:28:07 > 0:28:13And Harriet's father was Richard Fowler and he was a gentleman.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17What does it mean if your rank or profession is a gentleman?
0:28:17 > 0:28:22The idea is that a gentleman doesn't have to work for his living.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25- As it were.- Oh, OK. Do you know anything else about Richard Fowler,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29- gentleman?- Actually, I found a marriage announcement
0:28:29 > 0:28:33in the Leinster Express newspaper from 1835.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36- And here it is.- 1835!
0:28:36 > 0:28:41In Dublin, Richard Fowler Esquire of Dunlavin, County Wicklow,
0:28:41 > 0:28:44to Harriet. So...
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Richard Fowler was an Esquire.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49Of Dunlavin. What does that actually mean?
0:28:49 > 0:28:52I mean, I know of it, and I've heard of it, but...?
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Well, Esquire there is interesting.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57He's a gentleman in her marriage record,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00and he's an Esquire at the time of his own marriage.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04Esquire was not exactly a precise label.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07In theory, it means that he had property.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10That he was part of the landed gentry, as it were.
0:29:10 > 0:29:16So do you know what type of land he had, or how much or how little?
0:29:16 > 0:29:19I found something here in the Registry of Deeds.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23I have uncovered marriage articles of Richard's parents,
0:29:23 > 0:29:26- so let me just go and get that for you now.- OK, thank you.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34These books are absolutely incredible.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36Terrified to go anywhere near them.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40This book is probably 250 years old.
0:29:40 > 0:29:41Maybe a bit more.
0:29:42 > 0:29:43John, don't rip it!
0:29:45 > 0:29:51- All right, now.- Right.- What in the world does that say?
0:29:53 > 0:29:55Is it so happens, we have a transcript.
0:29:55 > 0:29:58- Oh, good!- OK.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01- And here you are.- Marriage settlement, 1790!
0:30:03 > 0:30:04Made it to the 1700s, yay!
0:30:07 > 0:30:09What is a marriage settlement?
0:30:09 > 0:30:13It's an agreement made between two parties, two families,
0:30:13 > 0:30:17- who are going to marry into each other.- OK.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19It's made between you can see Richard Fowler,
0:30:19 > 0:30:21that's Richard Fowler senior.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23Yeah, Richard Fowler
0:30:23 > 0:30:25and Abigail Fowler,
0:30:25 > 0:30:27formerly Alcock.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29So these are my...?
0:30:30 > 0:30:32Five-time great-grandparents?
0:30:32 > 0:30:34Great, great, great, great, great-grandparents.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37- OK.- Part of the lands of, how do you pronounce that?
0:30:37 > 0:30:39- Boherboy.- Boherboy.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41Commonly called the Boggy Meadow.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46- Was it really boggy?- I would imagine it probably was!
0:30:46 > 0:30:48Got to get its name from somewhere, right!
0:30:48 > 0:30:51In the whole 43 acres.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54So 43 acres is what they have?
0:30:54 > 0:30:56It's a middling sized holding.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59- It sounds a lot.- Maybe to our ears.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01To us, yeah.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04But for example, the major landowner in the area would have
0:31:04 > 0:31:07had tens of thousands of acres, owned outright.
0:31:07 > 0:31:08Right, OK. So he's doing all right?
0:31:08 > 0:31:10He's doing all right, but not spectacular.
0:31:10 > 0:31:11He's not flying high! OK.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Emma has discovered that her five-times great-grandfather
0:31:16 > 0:31:19Richard Fowler senior was a Protestant land-holder
0:31:19 > 0:31:22from the town of Dunlavin at the end of the 18th century.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27At the time, fewer than 5,000 Protestant families
0:31:27 > 0:31:30owned nearly all of the land in Ireland.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35The vast majority of the population were Catholic,
0:31:35 > 0:31:37but they had been excluded from land ownership.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41Most worked as labourers for land-holders like Richard Fowler.
0:31:43 > 0:31:48And what was Dunlavin like at the end of the 1700s?
0:31:48 > 0:31:51It was a small country town, about 40 miles south of Dublin.
0:31:53 > 0:31:58It was quite a particular place in that it was majority Protestant.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01- OK.- The fact that it was majority Protestant
0:32:01 > 0:32:05made it stand out in this, as this island in a sea of Catholicism...
0:32:05 > 0:32:07- Right.- ..at the end of the 18th century.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09Were they, were they not very well liked?
0:32:09 > 0:32:12There was a certain amount of sectarian tension, put it like that.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16- Should I go to Dunlavin? - Yes, is the short answer!
0:32:23 > 0:32:29I'm really surprised that someone's a gentleman in my family!
0:32:30 > 0:32:33Not because they're not, like, all the men are my family are gentlemen,
0:32:33 > 0:32:36but like, a gentleman of old times,
0:32:36 > 0:32:38you know, an Esquire.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41Someone who kind of had land.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44I expected working-class grafters,
0:32:44 > 0:32:46I didn't expect a gentleman.
0:32:55 > 0:33:03I am on my way to Dunlavin to see if I can find out anything else
0:33:03 > 0:33:06about Richard Fowler and his family.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11When I was speaking to John yesterday, he mentioned
0:33:11 > 0:33:13that it was a big Protestant community.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16And that there was tension.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19So I'm quite interested in finding out what...
0:33:20 > 0:33:23..what it was and why.
0:33:31 > 0:33:34Emma's meeting genealogist Nicola Morris.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36- Nicola, hi.- Lovely to meet you.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38- How are you doing?- And welcome to Dunlavin.
0:33:38 > 0:33:44Thank you. So I've been hearing that this is where some of my roots lie.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46- Right.- With a man called Richard Fowler
0:33:46 > 0:33:49who is my five-times great-grandfather.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51So the land that he had, which was Boherboy,
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Brewers Hill and Boggy Meadow, is outside of the town.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57As well as his land, he had an inn, here.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00Now, unfortunately, we don't know which building it was
0:34:00 > 0:34:01that was his at the time.
0:34:01 > 0:34:07What we do know is that the Dunlavin Inn here was here in the 1790s.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09So a contemporary of Richard Fowler's,
0:34:09 > 0:34:11if not his own pub.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14Shall we go inside and I've got some more information on Richard for you.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16I'd love to, thank you.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24I have some documents here that record Richard Fowler.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26So the first record that we find,
0:34:26 > 0:34:30the first reference that we find to him is in November 1797.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32And this is in the Union Star newspaper
0:34:32 > 0:34:35which was a newspaper of the United Irishmen.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37It was very much a propaganda paper.
0:34:39 > 0:34:42The Society of United Irishmen was founded in 1791.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47At the time, Ireland was ruled by the British monarch George III.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53The United Irishmen wanted to establish
0:34:53 > 0:34:55an independent Irish Republic.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00This appealed to many Irish Catholics who wanted self-rule.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07Somewhere along here is a reference to...
0:35:09 > 0:35:10OK, Fowler.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13A distiller in Dunlavin,
0:35:13 > 0:35:15a notorious informer
0:35:15 > 0:35:20and one of those privileged murderers Orangemen.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27What?
0:35:27 > 0:35:28No!
0:35:29 > 0:35:32So, the Union Star was a United Irishmen newspaper.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36They would have used this paper, which was handed out,
0:35:36 > 0:35:38to defame people.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40What they've done here is they've accused Fowler.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42What is that? What is Orangemen?
0:35:42 > 0:35:47The Orange Order was established in the 1790s in Ireland as an
0:35:47 > 0:35:50organisation, its membership came from Protestants.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54Its purpose was to defend loyalism to the British crown
0:35:54 > 0:35:58at that particular time. Richard Fowler would have been
0:35:58 > 0:36:02- considered to be a loyalist. - What about the murderers bit?
0:36:04 > 0:36:09This statement about Fowler very likely comes from an incident
0:36:09 > 0:36:12that Fowler was involved with, and it was actually reported on
0:36:12 > 0:36:16in a newspaper called The Press.
0:36:16 > 0:36:23So, this would be far less of a propaganda paper than the Union Star
0:36:23 > 0:36:27would be. A little bit more balanced reporting in it.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30"The morning of the 20th October last,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33"between the hours of one and two,
0:36:33 > 0:36:38"Lieutenant H of the Antrim militia, Richard Fowler,
0:36:38 > 0:36:44"of Dunlavin, and Thomas Butler of County Kildare went to the house
0:36:44 > 0:36:48"of Michael Egan and having broken open the door,
0:36:48 > 0:36:50"desired him and his son,
0:36:50 > 0:36:53"Thomas Egan, to come down out of their beds.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56"They were not even allowed to dress themselves.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59"And on the very instant that they appeared,
0:36:59 > 0:37:02"they were knocked down and received many..."
0:37:02 > 0:37:03SHE GASPS
0:37:03 > 0:37:05"..desperate stabs."
0:37:07 > 0:37:10Would a stab back then be the same as one now?
0:37:11 > 0:37:15They were using bayonets so, yes, it would have been.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20"Naked and bleeding as they were,
0:37:20 > 0:37:24"on daring to complain of such treatment,
0:37:24 > 0:37:29"were again knocked down and beaten in the most unmerciful manner."
0:37:32 > 0:37:34Shall I keep reading or not?
0:37:34 > 0:37:35If you want to.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39"On their arrival at the guardhouse,
0:37:39 > 0:37:42"they were again stabbed with bayonets.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45"After having nearly killed the father,
0:37:45 > 0:37:50"they dragged the son to a private part of the guardhouse
0:37:50 > 0:37:55"and by every kind of cruelty and torture they could invent...
0:37:56 > 0:37:59"..endeavoured to extract information from him.'
0:38:00 > 0:38:01That's horrific.
0:38:06 > 0:38:08Surely they can't...
0:38:09 > 0:38:13..or they wouldn't have reported it if it were not true.
0:38:14 > 0:38:15Yep.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20The case did go to court...
0:38:21 > 0:38:23..in the following months
0:38:23 > 0:38:27and actually, Richard Fowler was charged.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30So, he was certainly held accountable for his role in this.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35The United Irishmen were a banned organisation,
0:38:35 > 0:38:37so their activities took place in secret.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41Loyalists feared they were planning a rebellion
0:38:41 > 0:38:45and turned on anyone suspected of belonging to the United Irishmen.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50Many were imprisoned, tortured or executed.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59Do you know what happened to the two men, the Egans?
0:38:59 > 0:39:02They did survive, so they weren't killed on that night.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04One of the reasons that they would have been targeted
0:39:04 > 0:39:07is because they were blacksmiths.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10Around the country, blacksmiths were targeted simply because
0:39:10 > 0:39:13they had the ability to make weapons, so they made pikes,
0:39:13 > 0:39:15which were used as weapons.
0:39:15 > 0:39:16It's hard to...
0:39:17 > 0:39:19..make sense of it, but...
0:39:21 > 0:39:23..what type of man do you think Richard was?
0:39:26 > 0:39:28Because it's hard, after reading this...
0:39:29 > 0:39:31- ..to think he was a good man. - Mmm.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37But then, because there's so much going on,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39you can't make sense of it.
0:39:39 > 0:39:45- No. And it's very hard to excuse or justify what he did...- Yeah.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50But I think he was very much caught up in what was happening
0:39:50 > 0:39:52in this area at the time.
0:39:52 > 0:39:56The United Irishmen were posing a very serious threat
0:39:56 > 0:39:58to the stability of the country.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01An uprising is planned and that's why I think Richard Fowler was
0:40:01 > 0:40:03feeling such threat and panic.
0:40:03 > 0:40:08How can you defend that by doing that to somebody?
0:40:26 > 0:40:29I felt quite sick when I was reading it.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32Because it's so detailed.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35You know, it didn't really leave much to the imagination.
0:40:36 > 0:40:41And I could understand every word of it, and it just was so...
0:40:41 > 0:40:44the polar opposite to what I expected.
0:40:44 > 0:40:47And I was speechless, if I'm honest.
0:40:50 > 0:40:54I come from, from what I know of, from good people.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56And I feel like I've found...
0:40:58 > 0:41:02..somebody who, maybe, wasn't so good in Richard Fowler.
0:41:04 > 0:41:06People acted on instinct, I would imagine,
0:41:06 > 0:41:10on panic and fear and not knowing what was going to happen to them
0:41:10 > 0:41:12or their families, or their futures, and...
0:41:15 > 0:41:17..when you think about it in that respect,
0:41:17 > 0:41:19if it were me and I didn't know what was going to happen to my family,
0:41:19 > 0:41:21I would panic, too.
0:41:21 > 0:41:25But I wouldn't panic so much as to physically hurt somebody.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28What is incredible...
0:41:29 > 0:41:33..and fills me with more hope,
0:41:33 > 0:41:35is that, two generations later,
0:41:35 > 0:41:39Richard Fowler's granddaughter Harriet Fowler, a Protestant,
0:41:39 > 0:41:41married a Catholic,
0:41:41 > 0:41:43Michael Kirwan.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46So...
0:41:46 > 0:41:49two generations before, everybody was at loggerheads.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52Two generations later, they marry
0:41:52 > 0:41:54and it's not a marriage of convenience,
0:41:54 > 0:41:57we don't believe, it was a true match of love.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01That can't have been easy to have done that.
0:42:01 > 0:42:03It must have been frowned upon.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11Emma's three-times great-grandmother, Harriet Fowler,
0:42:11 > 0:42:13was married to Michael Kirwan.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17His father was also called Michael Kirwan and he was a marble mason.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25Emma now wants to find out more about him.
0:42:28 > 0:42:30So, I'm just going to search...
0:42:32 > 0:42:35Marble mason.
0:42:38 > 0:42:39Let's see.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42Ooh!
0:42:42 > 0:42:43That sounds right.
0:42:43 > 0:42:47Dictionary of Irish Architects.
0:42:47 > 0:42:48Michael Kirwan.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51Stonecutter and marble mason of Dublin.
0:42:51 > 0:42:57His altar for the Franciscan church in Henry Street, Limerick,
0:42:57 > 0:43:01was described in the Catholic Directory for 1848
0:43:01 > 0:43:04as one of the most splendid pieces of Irish manufacture...
0:43:05 > 0:43:07Maybe I should go to Limerick.
0:43:09 > 0:43:13I really needed something like this at the end of today, I think.
0:43:15 > 0:43:16Well, not I think, I know.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20I did. I was feeling a little bit defeated
0:43:20 > 0:43:23and now I feel positive again.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35I don't know what to expect or what to find.
0:43:35 > 0:43:39All I kind of know about what he made was...
0:43:40 > 0:43:44..written in the Dictionary of Irish Architects.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50And that it sounds like a thing of beauty, so I can't wait to see it.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59Emma's now in Limerick on the west coast of Ireland.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03She's discovered that the Franciscan church no longer exists.
0:44:04 > 0:44:08But she's on her way to see another of Michael Kirwan's altarpieces
0:44:08 > 0:44:10at nearby Saint Saviour's,
0:44:10 > 0:44:14where she's meeting historian Caroline McGee.
0:44:14 > 0:44:17- Hi, Caroline.- How are you? - I'm really good, how are you?
0:44:17 > 0:44:19- Good to meet you.- Nice to meet you, too.- Come inside.
0:44:24 > 0:44:29Oh...my...gosh.
0:44:39 > 0:44:40- It's amazing.- Pretty amazing.
0:44:40 > 0:44:42- Isn't it?- Yes.
0:44:42 > 0:44:44- It's really beautiful.- How...?
0:44:44 > 0:44:47Is that...? Everything I'm seeing is by him?
0:44:47 > 0:44:51The big backdrop that you see there, that's Michael's work.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54The carving on the pillars at the front here, that's Michael's work.
0:44:55 > 0:44:56It's pretty impressive.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58I have some reports about it
0:44:58 > 0:45:00that will tell us a little bit more about it.
0:45:00 > 0:45:03- Yeah, I'd love to find out... - Is there anything about him?
0:45:03 > 0:45:05There's lots about him, yes.
0:45:05 > 0:45:08- OK.- Lots of interesting things.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12So, what we have here is a newspaper article that was an interim report
0:45:12 > 0:45:15on the building of this extension to the church.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19"Some time since we called attention to a magnificent altar
0:45:19 > 0:45:24"in varied coloured marbles, manufactured by Mr Michael Kirwan
0:45:24 > 0:45:28"of 17 Bolton Street for a Catholic church in the country.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31"We then remarked on the extreme beauty of the design
0:45:31 > 0:45:34"and the elegance of the workmanship."
0:45:34 > 0:45:37- Exactly.- I think they're absolutely right.
0:45:37 > 0:45:40"And stated that nothing better of its kind
0:45:40 > 0:45:43"could be produced in any other country."
0:45:44 > 0:45:45Wow. That's...
0:45:45 > 0:45:47I mean, they like him, right?
0:45:47 > 0:45:50That's a superb testimonial, to say the least.
0:45:50 > 0:45:55Yeah. "The general effect of this altar is exceedingly fine,
0:45:55 > 0:45:58"and should be seen by those who have any doubt of Irishmen
0:45:58 > 0:46:01"producing at home as good specimens of art
0:46:01 > 0:46:04"as they are known to produce in other countries
0:46:04 > 0:46:08"where their genius is appreciated and rewarded.'
0:46:10 > 0:46:12- Well...- Are they calling him a genius?
0:46:12 > 0:46:13An Irish genius!
0:46:13 > 0:46:14An Irish genius.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17Exactly. It's a very Victorian description, isn't it?
0:46:17 > 0:46:21But it's just lovely and it does show you how well-regarded he was.
0:46:21 > 0:46:22- They love him.- They do.
0:46:24 > 0:46:25And now you love him, too!
0:46:25 > 0:46:27Yes!
0:46:27 > 0:46:28I love Michael Kirwan.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33So, Michael was creating altars probably from the early part of the
0:46:33 > 0:46:36century, probably around the 1830s.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39By then, Irish craftsmen had only begun to start
0:46:39 > 0:46:41doing this kind of work because
0:46:41 > 0:46:45Catholicism was very much an underground religion.
0:46:45 > 0:46:47There were a lot of restrictions on Catholics.
0:46:49 > 0:46:51For a century, Catholics had been outlawed
0:46:51 > 0:46:54from practising their religion in public,
0:46:54 > 0:46:57so few Catholic churches were built.
0:46:57 > 0:47:01But a series of reforms in the early 19th century allowed Catholics to
0:47:01 > 0:47:05worship openly, sparking a revival in church building
0:47:05 > 0:47:08and creating a demand for Michael Kirwan's altar pieces.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14And by 1866, Michael is a very successful businessman.
0:47:14 > 0:47:18He has a workshop and a showroom in Dublin.
0:47:18 > 0:47:20Very big business. By this time,
0:47:20 > 0:47:25a really good example of how a Catholic might have achieved a lot
0:47:25 > 0:47:27during the 19th century.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31This article is from 1851.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35It's to fill in Michael's story for you because, as you can see,
0:47:35 > 0:47:37it's a very important piece.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39"Manufacture movement."
0:47:39 > 0:47:41So, what was the Manufacture Movement?
0:47:41 > 0:47:46This was a group that came together to promote the sale of Irish goods.
0:47:46 > 0:47:50"The secretary handed in ten shillings and said
0:47:50 > 0:47:54"he felt peculiar pleasure in proposing
0:47:54 > 0:47:59"one of the most patriotic of Irishmen, Mr Michael Kirwan.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03"He had the talent to wrest from the hands of foreign artists
0:48:03 > 0:48:09"an important branch, the manufacturing of marble altars."
0:48:09 > 0:48:12So, he's as good as any foreign artists.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14He's as good as any foreign artist.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19And so Michael became kind of a poster boy for the achievements
0:48:19 > 0:48:23of Irish Catholics, Irish artists and craftsmen, and he was very,
0:48:23 > 0:48:26very important to the Irish Manufacture Movement
0:48:26 > 0:48:29because they thought he was a real patriot for promoting Irish goods
0:48:29 > 0:48:33at a time when the church furnishing industry was really dominated
0:48:33 > 0:48:35by overseas suppliers.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37Flying the flag for Irish craftsmanship.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39- Absolutely.- Is there more to find out?
0:48:39 > 0:48:41Well, he was based in Dublin.
0:48:41 > 0:48:42So I think you should...
0:48:42 > 0:48:44- Back to Dublin?- Back to Dublin!
0:48:49 > 0:48:51It's overwhelming, I think,
0:48:51 > 0:48:56to walk into such a gorgeous building in itself,
0:48:56 > 0:49:00but then know that the centrepiece of that building...
0:49:00 > 0:49:02And a building with a lot of history,
0:49:02 > 0:49:06was made by your four-time great-grandfather.
0:49:09 > 0:49:13He crafted that and touched it with his own hands.
0:49:16 > 0:49:21He seemed dedicated to his craft and dedicated to his country,
0:49:21 > 0:49:25and kind of wanted to show Ireland in the best light possible.
0:49:26 > 0:49:27That, to me, seems like a good man.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31And I needed to find a good man!
0:49:51 > 0:49:55To find out more about Michael Kirwan, Emma's back in Dublin.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59She's visiting Trinity College,
0:49:59 > 0:50:02where she's arranged to meet historian Patrick Geoghegan.
0:50:06 > 0:50:10- Patrick.- Hi, Emma.- Lovely to meet you. This is incredible.
0:50:10 > 0:50:11All the books that you need.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17I'm trying to track down as much as I can about Michael Kirwan,
0:50:17 > 0:50:19who is my four-times great-grandfather.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21So, can you tell me any more about him?
0:50:21 > 0:50:26Apart from all this brilliant work making these marble altars,
0:50:26 > 0:50:30he was very politically active and he was certainly one of the leaders
0:50:30 > 0:50:31of the Trade Union Movement
0:50:31 > 0:50:35because he was campaigning for worker's rights
0:50:35 > 0:50:38and he became close to a person called Daniel O'Connell who,
0:50:38 > 0:50:40in Ireland, is known as the liberator.
0:50:42 > 0:50:45Daniel O'Connell is one of the greatest figures in Irish history...
0:50:46 > 0:50:50..remembered for his role in winning civil rights for Catholics
0:50:50 > 0:50:52and fighting for Irish self-rule.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Would they have known each other?
0:50:56 > 0:50:57They were of different classes,
0:50:57 > 0:51:00Michael Kirwan is a working-class hero,
0:51:00 > 0:51:03Daniel O'Connell came from a much more privileged background,
0:51:03 > 0:51:05but they would have met at political meetings,
0:51:05 > 0:51:06they would have seen each other,
0:51:06 > 0:51:10speak and they would have been aware of the other person.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14But they didn't always see eye to eye.
0:51:14 > 0:51:18In the late 1830s, Daniel O'Connell made some controversial speeches
0:51:18 > 0:51:19attacking the trade unions.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23He criticised their practices and even spoke out
0:51:23 > 0:51:25against the idea of trade unionism.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30Michael Kirwan was one of the first to stand up for the workers.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35Here's the Freeman's Journal from the 1st of December 1837.
0:51:35 > 0:51:41OK. "At a meeting of the Operative Stonecutters of the city,
0:51:41 > 0:51:47"to disabuse the public mind on the unwarrantable charges
0:51:47 > 0:51:51"made by Mr O'Connell against the trades of Dublin generally.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53"Moved by Michael Kirwan."
0:51:53 > 0:51:57The fact that Michael Kirwan is proposing one of the motions
0:51:57 > 0:52:00shows the level of influence he had in the movement.
0:52:00 > 0:52:03It shows that he was one of the leaders of it
0:52:03 > 0:52:08and he's one of the key people who's really driving this defence
0:52:08 > 0:52:10of their actions.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12He was prepared to stand up for himself
0:52:12 > 0:52:13and he was prepared to stand up
0:52:13 > 0:52:17against the most charismatic and the most successful,
0:52:17 > 0:52:21and the most dominant Irish political figure of his day.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23Did that reflect badly then, on Michael Kirwan,
0:52:23 > 0:52:26because he'd challenged somebody that was held in such high regard?
0:52:26 > 0:52:31I think it reflected worse on Daniel O'Connell himself because O'Connell
0:52:31 > 0:52:33ended up losing popularity in Dublin
0:52:33 > 0:52:36because of these attacks on the
0:52:36 > 0:52:40workers and, for a time, he was booed on the streets of Dublin,
0:52:40 > 0:52:44he even considered giving up his political career and retiring.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46So, I think, in a way, Michael Kirwan
0:52:46 > 0:52:48had the better of the argument.
0:52:48 > 0:52:53It showed huge courage and it showed a certain kind of spiky character
0:52:53 > 0:52:55that he wasn't going to be pushed around.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58So, what happened? Did they resolve their differences?
0:52:58 > 0:53:00Or did they carry on fighting?
0:53:00 > 0:53:04They did resolve their difficulties and here's good proof
0:53:04 > 0:53:07of it, because it's an article in the Freeman's Journal
0:53:07 > 0:53:09in October 1862.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12"The O'Connell National statue."
0:53:12 > 0:53:15- What's that?- So, Daniel O'Connell died in 1847
0:53:15 > 0:53:17and 15 years later,
0:53:17 > 0:53:21they wanted to erect a national statue in his honour
0:53:21 > 0:53:24in the capital city of Ireland, in Dublin.
0:53:24 > 0:53:26And if you just look all the way down...
0:53:30 > 0:53:31Michael Kirwan.
0:53:31 > 0:53:3317 Bolton St.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36He's there! Yes!
0:53:37 > 0:53:40So all of these names, Michael included, obviously,
0:53:40 > 0:53:42he helped get the statue built.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44Does that mean he put his own money in,
0:53:44 > 0:53:47or helped kind of raise funds for it?
0:53:47 > 0:53:51He did both. He put his own money towards it
0:53:51 > 0:53:54and he also showed that he was publicly behind
0:53:54 > 0:53:56this national statue.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59Michael Kirwan clearly was hugely respected
0:53:59 > 0:54:02or otherwise he wouldn't be taking such a prominent role
0:54:02 > 0:54:04on this committee.
0:54:04 > 0:54:05He carried a lot of influence
0:54:05 > 0:54:08because he was the champion of the workers.
0:54:08 > 0:54:11- So he was a good man? - A very good man, a strong man
0:54:11 > 0:54:13and someone who was prepared to stand up
0:54:13 > 0:54:15and fight for his beliefs.
0:54:15 > 0:54:18And is it still standing? Can I go see it?
0:54:18 > 0:54:21Yes, you can. It's on our main national street in Dublin,
0:54:21 > 0:54:23O'Connell Street -
0:54:23 > 0:54:26the street that's named in Daniel O'Connell's honour.
0:54:26 > 0:54:29It's one of the great landmarks in Dublin.
0:54:29 > 0:54:31Oh, my goodness.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33While you go and see it, here's something
0:54:33 > 0:54:36that you might want to read on your own.
0:54:36 > 0:54:37Thank you so much.
0:54:37 > 0:54:38It's been a pleasure.
0:54:45 > 0:54:50It really is an incredible, incredible monument.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53And I think what I obviously love most,
0:54:53 > 0:54:55is the fact that Michael Kirwan
0:54:55 > 0:54:58was one of the people responsible for making it happen.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03I kind of feel like I can take a bit of the credit for it!
0:55:27 > 0:55:30"Death of Mr Michael Kirwan."
0:55:36 > 0:55:39I know he's dead, but obviously, I...
0:55:40 > 0:55:43I didn't really want to read about his death.
0:55:47 > 0:55:50"Mr Kirwan, we believe, was the first to establish
0:55:50 > 0:55:54"the marble altar building in Ireland and in many of the Catholic churches
0:55:54 > 0:55:58"in this city and the provinces, excellent specimens of his work
0:55:58 > 0:56:01"bear testimony to his talent and industry in the art."
0:56:03 > 0:56:05I mean, that's just incredible.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09I suppose this is kind of the first time I've really heard it, but
0:56:09 > 0:56:12they believe he was the first to establish
0:56:12 > 0:56:15the marble altar building in Ireland.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20So, it began with him, pretty much.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28"He was respected for his skill and integrity,
0:56:28 > 0:56:31"for his professionalism, and by the general community
0:56:31 > 0:56:35"who esteemed him for his virtues and patriotism."
0:56:44 > 0:56:47I don't know why I'm getting upset about somebody that lived
0:56:47 > 0:56:49150-odd years ago.
0:56:55 > 0:56:57I think when we went down the trail of...
0:56:58 > 0:57:03..of the Fowlers and I saw there was a gentleman, I was quite excited,
0:57:03 > 0:57:06because I'm from a working class family, so I thought
0:57:06 > 0:57:09that would be something quite different.
0:57:09 > 0:57:11Then that turned out not so well.
0:57:11 > 0:57:14So, to then go on the path of the Kirwans
0:57:14 > 0:57:18and find a hard worker
0:57:18 > 0:57:21from a working-class background that did really well,
0:57:21 > 0:57:24that's what I think is parallel to my family.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32What a fantastic man Michael Kirwan seemed to be.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36That is somebody that I'm immensely proud of.