0:00:02 > 0:00:04Can we just try the first bit again, just to make sure it's tight?
0:00:04 > 0:00:08For over 50 years, Lulu has been one of Britain's best-loved pop stars.
0:00:08 > 0:00:13I got on that stage, I just love it.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15And blessed to still be able to do it
0:00:15 > 0:00:19and to still enjoy it. It's unbelievable.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23# Well-ll-ll...
0:00:23 > 0:00:25- # You know you make me wanna shout - Shout
0:00:25 > 0:00:26- # Look, my hand's jumping - Shout
0:00:26 > 0:00:28- # Look, my heart's thumping - Shout
0:00:28 > 0:00:29# Throw my head back... #
0:00:29 > 0:00:32They released Shout when I was 15,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36and it was a hit immediately, so that was it, I was on the road.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Since finding fame in the '60s,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42she's won the Eurovision Song Contest,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44topped the charts with Take That,
0:00:44 > 0:00:47and she's still touring and releasing new material.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50I don't know what I'm going to find, but I don't sort of...
0:00:50 > 0:00:53I have no highfalutin ideas.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56I'm not waiting to find out I'm really a princess!
0:00:56 > 0:00:57SHE LAUGHS
0:00:57 > 0:00:59I know!
0:01:00 > 0:01:02I grew up in Glasgow.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04I was the eldest of four.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06We sang a lot, there was a lot of music in my house.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10I thought my father was the best singer I'd ever heard.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14I think I got my father's gift.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16The story of my mother is a big secret.
0:01:16 > 0:01:22Basically, she had been given away as a baby.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24I never met my mother's real parents.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28I don't even think I've seen a picture of them.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32The real essence of this is, why did they give my mother away?
0:01:32 > 0:01:34That's the real thing, that's what's so confusing.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15Lulu has invited her brother Billy and her son Jordan over
0:02:15 > 0:02:18to piece together what they know about her mother's story.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23- Hey!- Hey. How are you doing? - Hey, Mum.
0:02:23 > 0:02:24Oh...
0:02:24 > 0:02:26BILLY LAUGHS
0:02:26 > 0:02:27Ooh. Thanks for coming, you two.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29- Aw...- Good to see you, kid.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38- This is a good picture.- Yeah.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40It's us at the beach.
0:02:40 > 0:02:41My new frock on. Of course,
0:02:41 > 0:02:45I would have to be dressed perfectly, from head to toe.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47BILLY LAUGHS
0:02:47 > 0:02:48And there's Billy.
0:02:48 > 0:02:49Chubby chops!
0:02:49 > 0:02:52- How old were you there? - Three, maybe four.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54- She looks happy.- Yeah.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56That was all she wanted.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58To have her own family.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03What I'm really looking for is... is the answer to why
0:03:03 > 0:03:08my mum, and your mum, and your grandmother,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11was the only one out of seven children
0:03:11 > 0:03:13to be given away.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17Why was she the only one separated from the family?
0:03:17 > 0:03:19Well, I've looked at it from every possible angle
0:03:19 > 0:03:21- and I could never work it out.- Hm.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23There was never any rhyme or reason to it.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26- In my mind, you know, it was like there was something missing.- Mm.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29And I couldn't put my finger on it.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31Who were the family she grew up with,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34and how old was she when she was sort of given to them?
0:03:34 > 0:03:37I think she must have been a little baby, a little...
0:03:37 > 0:03:39tiny baby.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42And the family that took her on were the McDonalds.
0:03:42 > 0:03:43So, she found out that...
0:03:45 > 0:03:47- ..her parents weren't her parents...- Yes.
0:03:47 > 0:03:52..and she'd started a relationship with her natural family?
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Yes, she got to know them. They became close.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58But we have no idea...we have no idea why they gave her up?
0:03:58 > 0:04:01I don't know. Therein lies the mystery.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03I don't think my mum had the answers.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05I don't think she knew, or we'd have known.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10The discovery played havoc with her, with her state of mind.
0:04:10 > 0:04:11And with her emotions.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14And she became very insecure.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18We... Although it wasn't spoken, we understood...
0:04:18 > 0:04:22- Yeah, yeah, yeah.- ..don't ask too many questions, don't push it.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24There's a lot to be answered,
0:04:24 > 0:04:27so I think the only way to do that is for me...
0:04:28 > 0:04:30..to go back home.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40To try and find out why her mother was given up by her birth parents
0:04:40 > 0:04:44to be raised by the McDonald family, Lulu is on her way to Glasgow.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I always love going back to Glasgow,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52because I think of it as being my home.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56I keep reverting to a thick Glaswegian accent.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59She started her research by ordering up copies of
0:04:59 > 0:05:03her mother's birth certificate and her grandmother's death certificate.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08She was born in Castle Street, Glasgow.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12Elizabeth Kennedy Cairns.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15September 25th,
0:05:15 > 0:05:171927.
0:05:17 > 0:05:22Hugh Cairns is my mother's father.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25And Helen... Is that Darling...
0:05:25 > 0:05:30Cairns? Who was originally Helen Kennedy,
0:05:30 > 0:05:32is my mother's mother.
0:05:32 > 0:05:37So, what I have here is my grandmother's death certificate.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42Helen Darling Cairns, married to Hugh Cairns, died...
0:05:42 > 0:05:441935.
0:05:45 > 0:05:46Wow.
0:05:48 > 0:05:49She was only 31.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Ooh-ah.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55That's young.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59Well, I suppose my mother was...
0:06:00 > 0:06:03..seven years old when her mother died, her real mother.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07What did she die of?
0:06:07 > 0:06:08Peritonitis.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12Ruptured appendix.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13Profound toxaemia.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Cardiac failure.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20Poor woman. 31.
0:06:22 > 0:06:23Wow.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27She had seven kids before she was 31.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31And then, obviously, a very painful death.
0:06:32 > 0:06:33No life at all.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38My mother was 13 or 14 when she found out...
0:06:39 > 0:06:42..that she was not a McDonald, she was actually a Kennedy-Cairns.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46She found out at school one day.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49Oh, a crucial age!
0:06:49 > 0:06:51Sad that she never even got to...
0:06:52 > 0:06:53..meet her mother.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57I would absolutely love to see pictures,
0:06:57 > 0:06:59I would like to know what my grandparents looked like.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01Do I look like them?
0:07:01 > 0:07:03Does my brother look like them?
0:07:03 > 0:07:05The thought of seeing that is exciting.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Feels like home.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34But it doesn't seem as big.
0:07:34 > 0:07:39When I was tiny, I thought Glasgow was huge.
0:07:39 > 0:07:44I'm going to meet my Uncle Jim and my cousin, Eleanor,
0:07:44 > 0:07:46who I used to play with when I was young.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50I would've seen her the last time when I was...before I was 15,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53before I became "Lulu".
0:07:53 > 0:07:57I really hope they've got some answers to some of the questions.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02Lulu knows that her maternal grandparents,
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Hugh Cairns and Helen Kennedy,
0:08:04 > 0:08:05had seven children.
0:08:06 > 0:08:07Her mother, Elizabeth,
0:08:07 > 0:08:08was their middle child.
0:08:10 > 0:08:11When she was about 13,
0:08:11 > 0:08:13Elizabeth met her biological sister,
0:08:13 > 0:08:15Nelly, who told her
0:08:15 > 0:08:16who her birth parents were.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Lulu hopes that Nelly's daughter, Eleanor,
0:08:20 > 0:08:22and her mother's younger brother,
0:08:22 > 0:08:23James, can tell her more
0:08:23 > 0:08:24about why her mother
0:08:24 > 0:08:26was given away as a baby.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30- Oh, my God, hello!- Hey!
0:08:30 > 0:08:32THEY LAUGH
0:08:37 > 0:08:40- How are you, Eleanor? - How lovely to see you.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46I was told that my mother
0:08:46 > 0:08:50didn't know she was a Kennedy-Cairns until your mother,
0:08:50 > 0:08:55Auntie Nelly, came to see her when she was at school,
0:08:55 > 0:08:56and told her,
0:08:56 > 0:08:59"You're not a McDonald.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01"In fact, I'm your sister."
0:09:01 > 0:09:03Your mother ran away screaming.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06- Screaming?- Yeah, scared of her.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Says, "You're not my sister."
0:09:08 > 0:09:10- Yeah, well, it would be frightening, wouldn't it?- It would, yeah.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14Do you know, I never met my grandfather, or my grandmother.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18Can you tell me anything about who my grandparents were, as people?
0:09:18 > 0:09:20This is your grandmother.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25Wow, that looks like my mum.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27That's my mum, really.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31- It is very like your mum, isn't it? - Oh, my God.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Your mother, Auntie Nelly, did she ever tell you stories about her mum?
0:09:35 > 0:09:37My mum said that she was a bit of a girl,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40- that she liked to go out dancing and things like that.- Ooh!
0:09:40 > 0:09:44Yeah. Even though she had all these children, she still liked to go out.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47But to be fair, she had seven kids and she was 31, you know,
0:09:47 > 0:09:48- she was only young.- She was a baby.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51Yeah, so she wanted to still enjoy her life.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54This is Auntie Betty and Uncle Davy's wedding.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56So, that's Davy and Betty.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58- Oh!- And that's your mum and dad. - LULU GASPS
0:10:00 > 0:10:03And there's a wee girl called Lulu down there.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05- LAUGHTER - Oh, look at the bow!
0:10:05 > 0:10:08I had the biggest bow of all the children.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11You could fly away on that bow that I have on my hair.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14And that's our grandfather.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16You are kidding me.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19I obviously met him,
0:10:19 > 0:10:21but I'm not...
0:10:21 > 0:10:23- You don't...- I don't really have a memory of it.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25This is another one.
0:10:26 > 0:10:27Oh, my goodness.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31- Look at those eyes.- I know.- Ooh!
0:10:31 > 0:10:34- They're quite piercing.- My daughter says it looks really scary.
0:10:34 > 0:10:38He's got a scar from here, see? Which went right up to his ear.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41Oh, my goodness! How did that happen?
0:10:41 > 0:10:44One story is it just happened as he was coming out of a football match.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46One story is it happened in a pub.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49It doesn't mean to say that he was a criminal or anything.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52In those days, lots of folk had scars, didn't they?
0:10:52 > 0:10:53- In Glasgow? - LULU LAUGHS
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Do you know where my grandfather worked?
0:10:56 > 0:10:58He worked for the Callie, which was a railway.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01But not when the children were small.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04So, did Auntie Nelly tell you anything about
0:11:04 > 0:11:06our grandparents' relationship?
0:11:06 > 0:11:10Hugh was very Catholic, his family were very Catholic.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13Helen's were very, very Protestant,
0:11:13 > 0:11:15- in the Orange Order... - In those days,
0:11:15 > 0:11:19for a Catholic and a Protestant to come together was...
0:11:20 > 0:11:22- ..almost impossible.- Yep.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Both families tried to split them up all the time.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27I think they loved each other.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29It was like they couldn't live with each other,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31but they couldn't live without each other.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33They were constantly splitting up and going back together.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36- Is that the story? - And just having babies!
0:11:36 > 0:11:40What happened after Grandmother Helen died?
0:11:40 > 0:11:41What happened to the kids?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44- He stayed with his aunt. - What happened to the rest of them?
0:11:44 > 0:11:46They were left to bring themselves up.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49They brought themselves up, their father, lived with their father...
0:11:49 > 0:11:51Yeah, he was only a young man and I think he drank a lot.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56He would leave them. So, my mum was in charge and she would delegate,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59"You steal the milk, you steal the bread, you steal the roll."
0:11:59 > 0:12:02So, they would go out and steal it from people's doorsteps.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Your mum always asked my mum, "Why was I the one that was given away?"
0:12:05 > 0:12:08My mum used to say, "You were the lucky one."
0:12:08 > 0:12:09- Really?- Yeah. - Is that what Nelly said?
0:12:09 > 0:12:12- Yeah. "You were the lucky one," she says.- You got out.- Yeah.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14- We had nothing. - You were looked after.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18It stayed with her, that she felt she was given away,
0:12:18 > 0:12:21- because she wasn't important. - No, no...
0:12:21 > 0:12:24But in fact, she was saved, in a way.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Cos it was hard with her father.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29Living with her father, you know.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31No mother, he wasn't working.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33The money wasn't coming in.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36So, we were very fortunate.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38But your mum never saw that.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40It must have been hard for her.
0:12:40 > 0:12:41"Why did they choose me out of seven?"
0:12:47 > 0:12:52The interesting thing to learn was how the Kennedy-Cairns family,
0:12:52 > 0:12:55their opinion is that she was the best off.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59Because she went to a normal family and had a roof over her head
0:12:59 > 0:13:00and had food.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03But because she didn't know, no-one gave her any information,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06she felt like she'd been abandoned.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09She just didn't know. She was left to her own imagination.
0:13:09 > 0:13:14So, now I'm really interested in finding out more about...
0:13:14 > 0:13:17my grandfather and my grandmother.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26- Hey, Jim. - Hello, Lulu.- How are you doing?
0:13:26 > 0:13:29- Delighted to meet you.- And you, too. - THEY LAUGH
0:13:38 > 0:13:41To learn more about her grandfather, Hugh Cairns,
0:13:41 > 0:13:43Lulu is meeting historian Dr Jim Smith
0:13:43 > 0:13:46at the Springburn Railway Depot.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51So, Jim, I have found out that my grandfather, Hugh,
0:13:51 > 0:13:53actually worked here.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56I'm trying to find out more about him.
0:13:56 > 0:13:57Can you tell me anything?
0:13:57 > 0:13:59Well, we can start with his birth certificate.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05Hugh Cairns, born on April 1st.
0:14:05 > 0:14:06So, he's born in Glasgow
0:14:06 > 0:14:10and then we can pick up his story from the work records from here.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13- There.- Hugh Cairns.- He's there. - Mm-hm.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17He started working on 13th September...
0:14:19 > 0:14:21..1916.
0:14:21 > 0:14:2314 years of age, he was working here.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27- The school leaving age was 14. - Aw, he was a baby!
0:14:27 > 0:14:30And that's the rate per day?
0:14:30 > 0:14:32- Yeah.- What was that?
0:14:32 > 0:14:37- Old money.- Four shillings and eightpence a day, he got paid.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41He was a foundry labourer, it says, but I don't know what that means.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43It's hard physical labour.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46He's a young Irish Catholic lad,
0:14:46 > 0:14:52and most Irish Catholic men worked as unskilled labourers.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54For Hugh to start his working life...
0:14:55 > 0:14:57..and continue his working life
0:14:57 > 0:15:00as an unskilled labourer would be very much the norm.
0:15:02 > 0:15:08Between 1830 and 1914, over 300,000 Irish migrants came to Scotland.
0:15:08 > 0:15:13And Glasgow, with its flourishing industries, saw the biggest influx.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17The new arrivals were predominantly Catholic
0:15:17 > 0:15:20and faced routine discrimination,
0:15:20 > 0:15:23with better paid, more highly-skilled jobs
0:15:23 > 0:15:26generally reserved for the city's Protestant majority.
0:15:28 > 0:15:33The date of leaving service was 4th July, 1917.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Cause of leaving the service was - leaving his job, right? -
0:15:37 > 0:15:39was bad...
0:15:39 > 0:15:41timekeeping.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43Seems kind of sad.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Didn't even last a year.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47And it's 1916, 1917.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49It's the middle of the First World War.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53Hugh started work during the war years,
0:15:53 > 0:15:55a boom time for Glasgow's heavy industries.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00Hundreds of thousands were employed in shipbuilding, armaments,
0:16:00 > 0:16:02and on the railways,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05which provided vital transport for troops and materials.
0:16:07 > 0:16:08They need every hand they can get.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10It's full employment.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12You'd have to have a good reason to be unemployed.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16Which doesn't give me much hope for my grandfather.
0:16:16 > 0:16:17Well, don't give up hope yet...
0:16:17 > 0:16:20- LULU LAUGHS - ..because, erm, he comes back.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22They bring him back? They have him back?
0:16:22 > 0:16:24- Mm.- Fitting shop labourer.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26- Yep.- Was that a move up?
0:16:26 > 0:16:29- Possibly a move down. - Oh, I can see he got less money.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32- He was getting less money, yeah. - Three and eightpence.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34Well, better than nothing.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37- Mm.- Um, 19th February.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39- Mm-hm.- 1918.
0:16:39 > 0:16:40He's been sacked.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Cause of leaving the service,
0:16:42 > 0:16:44inattention to his work.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47- And it goes on. - He's not hired back?
0:16:47 > 0:16:51- Mm-hm.- He's back on 9th December, 1918.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53And...
0:16:53 > 0:16:54Oh, my goodness.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58I can't even say it.
0:16:58 > 0:16:59He loses his job again.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02- Mm-hm.- So, he's been in and out and in and out.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Why didn't his father say, "Get out of bed, come on,"
0:17:05 > 0:17:08and drag him by the scruff of the neck and take him in?
0:17:08 > 0:17:12- Does it get any better?- Well, well, stick with it, stick with it,
0:17:12 > 0:17:16- you know, it's, er...- OK, OK. I'm hopeful.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20He's back on 28th...
0:17:20 > 0:17:22June, in 1920.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26Oh! Things are getting better, he's getting five shillings.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29- So, it's gone from three and eight to five shillings.- Mm-hm.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34Oh, and then he leaves again on 11th August, 1922,
0:17:34 > 0:17:36- of his own accord.- Yep.
0:17:36 > 0:17:40I just don't understand, why would he leave?
0:17:41 > 0:17:43Well, this might answer that.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45"This is to certify...
0:17:47 > 0:17:51"..that Hugh Cairns has proved himself to be a good workman
0:17:51 > 0:17:53"and is a good timekeeper"!
0:17:53 > 0:17:55They lied!
0:17:55 > 0:17:57But how nice of them!
0:17:57 > 0:18:00"This certificate is granted on the understanding
0:18:00 > 0:18:01"that Cairns is going...
0:18:03 > 0:18:05"..abroad."
0:18:05 > 0:18:07My mind, of course, is racing.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09How old was he there?
0:18:09 > 0:18:10He's still only 20.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15He's 20, he's going abroad, has he met my grandmother?
0:18:15 > 0:18:17I'll bet he has.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20How would I find out where he went abroad?
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Well, the documents to look for are ships' lists,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26and they will give a list of all passengers.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Let's do it.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44OK, so, now I'm going to try and find Hugh on these passenger lists.
0:18:46 > 0:18:47Hugh...
0:18:47 > 0:18:49Cairns.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Birth year, 1902.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Arrival, 1922.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59OK, now, search.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03See what comes up.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05There he is.
0:19:05 > 0:19:06LULU GASPS
0:19:07 > 0:19:09Wow.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12He went to Boston.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14He departed from Liverpool
0:19:14 > 0:19:19and arrived in Boston on 24th August.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23So, now I have the form, the immigration and travel form.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28They ask whether he intends to go home after having a short
0:19:28 > 0:19:32sort of working sabbatical in America.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34He says no, he's not intending to go home.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37And then, is he going to stay in America?
0:19:37 > 0:19:39And he says - "Always".
0:19:40 > 0:19:44Maybe that's what he intended, but it didn't work out for him.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47It says here, "Suggested Records". Let's see now.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50Oh, my God, this is in German!
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Port of departure, Hamburg.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57Destination, Grimsby.
0:19:57 > 0:19:58So, OK,
0:19:58 > 0:20:03he leaves for America in August and he's back in the UK by November.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06But what happened to Boston?
0:20:07 > 0:20:09Maybe my cousin Eleanor would know.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13Eleanor, it's Lu.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15- ON PHONE:- Hi, hello, how are you?
0:20:15 > 0:20:16I'm good.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19I actually found the documents that told me that our grandfather...
0:20:21 > 0:20:23..travelled by ship
0:20:23 > 0:20:25to Boston, Massachusetts.
0:20:25 > 0:20:31But he was back in the UK within three months.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33Yeah, the family had clubbed together
0:20:33 > 0:20:37and sent him to America to get him away from our grandmother.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39They were going out together and, obviously, as you know,
0:20:39 > 0:20:41the family disapproved.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45And, erm, so they clubbed together, sent him to America
0:20:45 > 0:20:47and hoped that he wouldn't come back,
0:20:47 > 0:20:49but he missed her so much
0:20:49 > 0:20:54that he got a job on a German tanker and worked
0:20:54 > 0:20:56his way back to Hamburg -
0:20:56 > 0:20:58and from Hamburg, he made his way back to Glasgow
0:20:58 > 0:21:00to see her again.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02- And then they got back together. - Quite clearly...
0:21:04 > 0:21:08..the parents did not want this to happen, at all.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10- Absolutely not. - ELEANOR LAUGHS
0:21:10 > 0:21:14Well, thank you, sweetheart, for clearing that up. Um...
0:21:14 > 0:21:16- So, I'll speak to you soon, yes? - Yes. Lovely.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Lulu now knows that her grandparents' enforced separation
0:21:23 > 0:21:25didn't last long.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Hugh and Helen were reunited by the end of 1922.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35To find out what happened to the couple next,
0:21:35 > 0:21:40she's meeting historian Dr Bill Knox at the Glasgow Green Winter Gardens.
0:21:41 > 0:21:42Hey, Bill.
0:21:47 > 0:21:48Let me give you this document.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53- Now, this is a birth certificate. - Glasses again.- We can give you this.
0:21:53 > 0:21:54Oh, that's great.
0:21:56 > 0:21:58Colin...
0:21:58 > 0:22:00McGill Cairns.
0:22:00 > 0:22:07His parents are Hugh Cairns and Helen Darling Kennedy.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10They had a baby. Oh, of course, he was the eldest.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12He was born in 1923, in October.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16Hey, they're not married.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18No.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20So the child is illegitimate.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22Oh!
0:22:22 > 0:22:23Shame and horror.
0:22:25 > 0:22:26I'm laughing, because of course,
0:22:26 > 0:22:28then, it would've been shameful.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31The church sees it as a badge of shame,
0:22:31 > 0:22:33society sees it as a badge of shame,
0:22:33 > 0:22:35but what makes it worse in this case
0:22:35 > 0:22:38is it's across a religious divide.
0:22:38 > 0:22:39So...
0:22:39 > 0:22:42Helen Kennedy
0:22:42 > 0:22:45is living at 58 Norman Street.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47He's living at 259 Castle Street.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50They're both in Glasgow, but they're not living together.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52Yeah, the addresses tell us something about
0:22:52 > 0:22:56the religious composition of the different areas of Glasgow.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58Here, Norman Street.
0:22:58 > 0:23:00That's in Bridgeton, that's where she lived.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03Now, Hugh lives in Castle Street,
0:23:03 > 0:23:07which is in a different district of Glasgow, it's in Townhead area,
0:23:07 > 0:23:10so we have to go Castle Street.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13- So...- So, they're miles apart.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16What were those two different areas like?
0:23:16 > 0:23:21Well, the one word you could use to sum them up are "miserable".
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Appalling levels of overcrowding, squalor...
0:23:25 > 0:23:28you've got to remember that two thirds of families in Glasgow
0:23:28 > 0:23:30lived in one or two rooms.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33There was also a religious aspect.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35There's no ghettoisation,
0:23:35 > 0:23:39but you had areas which had high concentrations of one faith
0:23:39 > 0:23:41or the other faith.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Bridgeton, for instance, was more associated with Protestants,
0:23:44 > 0:23:46the Orange Order and so on,
0:23:46 > 0:23:50whereas Townhead was more associated with Catholics.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52After the first child, the illegitimate child,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55and living in different places, what happened then?
0:23:55 > 0:23:58- Well, let me show you this. - What is this?
0:23:58 > 0:23:59This is another birth certificate.
0:23:59 > 0:24:05So, this child was born 31st January, 1925.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07- Yeah.- They're not splitting up, are they?
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Let's face it. Hugh Cairns, father.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12Oh, he's still at Castle Street.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14They haven't moved in together.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17- No.- Two kids out of wedlock.
0:24:17 > 0:24:18Yeah.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22What a mess.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25It's very interesting, if you look at the birth certificate,
0:24:25 > 0:24:27because it's a mother's responsibility,
0:24:27 > 0:24:31not being married, to register the birth.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35And the father's name only goes on the birth certificate
0:24:35 > 0:24:38if he accompanies her to the registrar's office.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42- Now, Hugh has done this... - He's committed, then.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45- ..which is a commitment. - He is totally committed.- Yeah.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48So I imagine, and it is conjecture,
0:24:48 > 0:24:53that the families absolutely refused to allow them to get married,
0:24:53 > 0:24:55but they couldn't keep them apart.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57And I can see there's another piece of paper,
0:24:57 > 0:24:58so I know you've got something else to tell me.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00I'm almost afraid.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02Well, it's not the end of the story. Have a look at that.
0:25:05 > 0:25:06Oh, I'm so relieved.
0:25:06 > 0:25:11They got married on 21st February, 1925.
0:25:11 > 0:25:12By getting married,
0:25:12 > 0:25:15- that legitimises the children. - The children.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18But it's not any old kind of marriage.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21Over here it says something on the top line,
0:25:21 > 0:25:23something about a regular marriage,
0:25:23 > 0:25:27and then there's another line underneath. It says...
0:25:27 > 0:25:29"An irregular marriage."
0:25:29 > 0:25:31Well, a regular marriage
0:25:31 > 0:25:34involves the presence of a member of the clergy.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38Irregular marriage is what leads to what we call civil marriage today.
0:25:38 > 0:25:43It's simply a question of you saying, "I do," I say, "I do,"
0:25:43 > 0:25:45we go with two witnesses
0:25:45 > 0:25:50along to a sheriff or a magistrate and you're married.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53Why do you think they had this irregular marriage?
0:25:53 > 0:25:55They had no option, really.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57One's a Protestant, one's a Catholic.
0:25:57 > 0:26:01The Catholic Church frowned on marriage with a non-Catholic.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04So it is kind of love...
0:26:05 > 0:26:07..across a significant divide.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10Yes, it's the Glasgow equivalent of Romeo and Juliet.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Because you have anecdotal evidence of women,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17- or young men, being cut off by their families.- Cut off.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Because they moved across this divide.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22It says something about this relationship
0:26:22 > 0:26:24that you would risk all that.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27So love, in many ways, was blind to faith.
0:26:31 > 0:26:35It's clear there was a very passionate relationship.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38But I have to say, it doesn't look
0:26:38 > 0:26:41like their future is bright and rosy.
0:26:45 > 0:26:47Lulu has discovered that her grandparents,
0:26:47 > 0:26:50Hugh and Helen, married in 1925.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53By which time they already had two sons.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57Their daughter Nelly was born in 1926,
0:26:57 > 0:26:59and another daughter, Elizabeth,
0:26:59 > 0:27:03Lulu's mother, followed in September 1927.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08Elizabeth was given up to another family not long after her birth,
0:27:08 > 0:27:10but Lulu has no idea why.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15She's come to Glasgow's Mitchell Library
0:27:15 > 0:27:16to look for any records
0:27:16 > 0:27:19of her mother's case in the city archives.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22Hello, Lulu. Pleased to meet you.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24- Good to meet you, too. - Yep, come away.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Adoption expert Professor Kenneth Norrie is helping with her search.
0:27:29 > 0:27:30So, Kenneth,
0:27:30 > 0:27:34I know my mother didn't stay with her birth parents for long.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37I would like to know what happened.
0:27:37 > 0:27:43This book is a book of the record of children who are subject
0:27:43 > 0:27:48to local authority visitation, monitoring.
0:27:48 > 0:27:53- Mm-hm.- And this occurs when a child isn't living with their normal,
0:27:53 > 0:27:55natural birth families.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58So, if we open it at C,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01we'll find a reference to your mother.
0:28:01 > 0:28:02There she is. Elizabeth.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05Birth date, 25th September '27,
0:28:05 > 0:28:08and there's her father's name, Hugh.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12Yeah. So this is different from taking a child into care.
0:28:12 > 0:28:17This is not the public authorities removing a child.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21The records revealed that Lulu's mother's parents
0:28:21 > 0:28:24gave her up to a foster family of their own accord.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29In cases of private fostering,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32the birth parents of a child paid for his or her care.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37And to ensure that children were properly looked after,
0:28:37 > 0:28:39foster families were visited regularly
0:28:39 > 0:28:41by local authority inspectors.
0:28:43 > 0:28:46The next document is this one.
0:28:47 > 0:28:51It says here, "Widow Jane McCoid..."
0:28:51 > 0:28:55- Yes.- "..have adopted child Elizabeth."
0:28:55 > 0:28:56What happened?
0:28:56 > 0:29:00Because the woman who took my mother had a husband.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04Yeah. Your mother was with this family only for one month.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07- No.- For a very, very short period of time.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10- Right. The actual heading is...- Hm.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14..beautiful wording.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16"How disposed of"...
0:29:17 > 0:29:19..which pains me, I have to say.
0:29:19 > 0:29:20Um...
0:29:20 > 0:29:23She was disposed of...
0:29:24 > 0:29:26..on 21st
0:29:26 > 0:29:29of the third,
0:29:29 > 0:29:311928.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35- She's about five or six months old. - Yeah.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:29:37 > 0:29:42"Father of the child is Hugh Cairns, presently...
0:29:43 > 0:29:46"..in prison for one month."
0:29:47 > 0:29:48Prison.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53Oh, my God.
0:29:53 > 0:29:57You didn't know that your grandfather had been in prison?
0:29:57 > 0:30:00No. Goodness knows what he got up to.
0:30:00 > 0:30:05The father is suddenly out of the picture.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08Your grandmother isn't mentioned in these records at all.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10That's strange in itself.
0:30:10 > 0:30:11That is strange in itself.
0:30:11 > 0:30:16But it possibly explains why your mother had to be given over
0:30:16 > 0:30:20to another family. If you notice, right at the end...
0:30:20 > 0:30:22"No money," does that say?
0:30:22 > 0:30:24- Yeah.- No money.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27No money. I think what has happened here
0:30:27 > 0:30:32is that the arrangement has been that this widow is to be paid,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35but, in fact, she never receives anything.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37So does she give the child back?
0:30:37 > 0:30:38Yeah.
0:30:38 > 0:30:43I have to say, I'm feeling very angry with my grandparents.
0:30:43 > 0:30:46Willy-nilly having babies all over the place.
0:30:46 > 0:30:50Well, after this month in the first placement,
0:30:50 > 0:30:53your mother then is put to a second family.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55- The McDonalds.- The McDonalds. - Right.
0:30:55 > 0:30:57What this is
0:30:57 > 0:31:00is the records of the official visitations.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03"William McDonald,
0:31:03 > 0:31:04"Helen Reid,
0:31:04 > 0:31:10"date when child received was 14th of the 5th, '28."
0:31:10 > 0:31:11So, not long afterwards.
0:31:11 > 0:31:17No, it's about a month after she leaves her original placement.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19"Terms agreed upon, eight shillings."
0:31:19 > 0:31:21Eight shillings for what?
0:31:21 > 0:31:24- For how long?- That's probably eight shillings a month.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28It is about a weekly salary of a domestic servant at the time.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32And you'll see the official visitor visited your mother
0:31:32 > 0:31:34three or four times a year.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36And it starts here.
0:31:36 > 0:31:43"May 28th, 1928, child making excellent progress,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46"well cared for.
0:31:46 > 0:31:50"Father is supposed to be in prison,
0:31:50 > 0:31:54"mother has disappeared."
0:31:55 > 0:31:57- Yeah.- Her mother's disappeared.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59- Yeah.- Oh, my God.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02Do you think her mother had a breakdown?
0:32:02 > 0:32:04It's very, very difficult to know.
0:32:04 > 0:32:06Then it goes on.
0:32:06 > 0:32:10"27th September..." Also in 1928.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13"Wrote the father re non-payment to guardian."
0:32:13 > 0:32:16So immediately we're into a problem.
0:32:16 > 0:32:21There's been no contact with the natural parents of the child
0:32:21 > 0:32:23and no money has been forthcoming.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25It's quite clear that...
0:32:27 > 0:32:32..my mother's parents had, what she always felt, abandoned her.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35Then, "1930, April 4th,
0:32:35 > 0:32:39"child well cared for and making excellent progress.
0:32:39 > 0:32:45"Child not to be given to parents
0:32:45 > 0:32:47"until full payment is made
0:32:47 > 0:32:53"and if they satisfy us that child will actually be cared for."
0:32:53 > 0:32:54The poor law authorities
0:32:54 > 0:32:57- are beginning to exercise some muscle here.- Yes.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59They're beginning to realise
0:32:59 > 0:33:01- this child is so much better... - With the McDonalds...
0:33:01 > 0:33:03..with the McDonalds than with her own family.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05..than with her own family.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07So if her own family come along and try to take her back,
0:33:07 > 0:33:09as they would normally be entitled to...
0:33:09 > 0:33:12They'd have to show how responsible they're going to be by paying.
0:33:12 > 0:33:14By paying up what they owe.
0:33:14 > 0:33:15And also, as it says,
0:33:15 > 0:33:18showing that this child is going to be well looked after.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20How would they do that?
0:33:20 > 0:33:23After that, I don't know how you could do that.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25"November 15th, 1932.
0:33:25 > 0:33:33"Child went to school yesterday for the first time and is very..."
0:33:35 > 0:33:37- "Pleased."- "..pleased with herself."
0:33:48 > 0:33:53It's a very humanising thing to put in a formal document.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56Yes. Very pleased with herself.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59I'm crying and I'm laughing at the same time.
0:33:59 > 0:34:00I can just see her.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05It really gives a flavour of her personality,
0:34:05 > 0:34:07even at the age of five.
0:34:07 > 0:34:08Yeah, yeah. And she had that.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12She was well loved, I suppose.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18Cared for and felt secure.
0:34:18 > 0:34:19Yeah.
0:34:19 > 0:34:23I mean, to honour the McDonald family,
0:34:23 > 0:34:26how unbelievable they were.
0:34:26 > 0:34:32They are absolutely the kindest, most loving, wonderful people.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34That's certainly the feeling that
0:34:34 > 0:34:37- comes out of that single sentence, isn't it?- Yeah.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40This is in April, 1935.
0:34:40 > 0:34:46"Guardian informed that child's mother is dead."
0:34:48 > 0:34:49And she's seven.
0:34:49 > 0:34:53The guardians learned that the child's mother had died
0:34:53 > 0:34:57and they have now informed the child protection visitor.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00I think they've not told the child.
0:35:00 > 0:35:04- Cos the child doesn't know that the child isn't theirs.- Mm-hm.
0:35:04 > 0:35:09We have the final record in September, 1936.
0:35:09 > 0:35:14"September 25th, child now nine years."
0:35:14 > 0:35:15Well, why have they put that in?
0:35:15 > 0:35:17This is her ninth birthday
0:35:17 > 0:35:21and that is the very final record that we have.
0:35:21 > 0:35:22As soon as she is nine,
0:35:22 > 0:35:26the official visiting comes to an end and there's no more.
0:35:28 > 0:35:29Is she officially adopted?
0:35:29 > 0:35:31- No.- Unofficially adopted?
0:35:31 > 0:35:32No.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36We've watched her grow up during that period and the state can
0:35:36 > 0:35:38effectively step back at that stage.
0:35:38 > 0:35:44Some children, as soon as the official eye is removed,
0:35:44 > 0:35:45some children will be
0:35:45 > 0:35:49in a vulnerable, difficult, dangerous position.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52That seems not to have been the case for your mother.
0:35:52 > 0:35:53Which, in a lot of respects,
0:35:53 > 0:35:57your mother has been a very, very fortunate child.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Yes. Yes, and that's what my Uncle James said.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02She was lucky.
0:36:02 > 0:36:05I mean, it's so confusing, the whole thing.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08Her mother disappeared, her father was in jail.
0:36:08 > 0:36:09What was going on?
0:36:09 > 0:36:12Yeah. This was a family in crisis.
0:36:12 > 0:36:14It might be revealing now
0:36:14 > 0:36:17for you to look at your grandfather's situation.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19- Yes.- Particularly his prison records.
0:36:19 > 0:36:24That might give you a slightly better picture of actually what...
0:36:24 > 0:36:27the pressures that he was facing in that particular time.
0:36:27 > 0:36:28Yeah.
0:36:35 > 0:36:39I feel emotionally drained.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41You know,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44thinking about my mum as a little baby, a little person.
0:36:44 > 0:36:49I have ambiguous feelings about my grandparents right now.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52Yesterday, I felt better towards them.
0:36:52 > 0:36:57I'm trying not to be too harsh about what they did to my mother.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00Why was my grandfather in jail?
0:37:02 > 0:37:04There's more to know about. Because, you know,
0:37:04 > 0:37:10my emotional reaction makes me want to blame, you know.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12And, yet, I wasn't there.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14I wasn't in his shoes.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16I mean, it must have been really tough.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26To find out why her grandfather was in prison,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29Lulu is meeting historian Dr Andrew Davies
0:37:29 > 0:37:32at the old Glasgow Central Police Station.
0:37:33 > 0:37:37- Andrew.- Hello, nice to meet you. - You, too.
0:37:39 > 0:37:44Andrew, my grandfather was in jail in 1928.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46But I don't know why he was in jail.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49I've actually found a record here
0:37:49 > 0:37:53which shows, in fact, he was in jail quite a bit earlier than that.
0:37:53 > 0:37:54He was?
0:37:54 > 0:37:59We found him here in the admissions register for Duke Street Prison.
0:37:59 > 0:38:01This is in 1918.
0:38:01 > 0:38:03He was born in 1902.
0:38:03 > 0:38:08So he was...he was in jail when he was 16 years old?
0:38:08 > 0:38:12- That's right.- Oh, my God, I had a criminal of a grandfather.
0:38:12 > 0:38:13What did he do?
0:38:13 > 0:38:16It says assault and robbery from a safe.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Does that say £100?
0:38:18 > 0:38:20It does.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26- Blooming thief.- In today's money,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29that would be something between £4,000 and £5,000.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31So that's quite a hefty sum.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35That's shocking. I think he was a bad boy, my grandfather.
0:38:35 > 0:38:39I've got another record from a few years later.
0:38:39 > 0:38:42This is a register for Barlinnie, the next document.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45Oh, God, that's a really serious prison.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47Where all the bad 'uns go.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51"1924, April 1st." April Fools' Day.
0:38:51 > 0:38:52"Breach of the peace."
0:38:52 > 0:38:54Breach of the peace, so he was in a fight.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57He's been fined 21 shillings with the option,
0:38:57 > 0:38:59if he is unable to pay the fine...
0:38:59 > 0:39:01- Of...- Ten days.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04- Ten days in...- In the jail.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07Got the date of his release there.
0:39:07 > 0:39:12April 3rd. So somebody had to come and pay 21 shillings.
0:39:12 > 0:39:14Oh, his parents must be so upset.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16- And his wife.- Very much so.
0:39:16 > 0:39:17This is a lot of money.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21- Are there more?- I'm afraid there are a few more of these to come.
0:39:21 > 0:39:22Oh.
0:39:22 > 0:39:26OK. So he's back in again.
0:39:26 > 0:39:321924. May 28th.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34And he's in again...
0:39:34 > 0:39:36Breach of the peace.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38So he's always getting into a fight.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41The last time he was in jail was April
0:39:41 > 0:39:43and then this is May and he's back in again.
0:39:43 > 0:39:44It seems like there's a pattern.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47It's really noticeable, isn't it?
0:39:47 > 0:39:50He's barely been out and he's back in the jail.
0:39:50 > 0:39:53I suspect as well, by this time, Hugh's known to the police.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55That's what I was thinking. "Get 'im."
0:39:55 > 0:39:57- Yeah.- "He's a troublemaker."
0:39:57 > 0:40:00I think he's probably by now a bit of a marked man.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02Is this 42 shillings?
0:40:02 > 0:40:04- It is.- Price has gone up.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06They're fed up with him.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08They're just charging him more to let him out.
0:40:08 > 0:40:11They've really scaled up the penalty, so in fact
0:40:11 > 0:40:13- they've doubled it, haven't they? - They've doubled it.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17Because it's gone to 42 shillings or 20 days.
0:40:17 > 0:40:22That must have been really difficult for my grandmother.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26It must have been because they're clearly struggling to pay the fines.
0:40:26 > 0:40:27Oh, my goodness.
0:40:27 > 0:40:31It's taking them ten days to bring that money together.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33So we have another entry.
0:40:33 > 0:40:34SHE GROANS
0:40:34 > 0:40:37He's in and out, in and out, in and out like a yo-yo.
0:40:38 > 0:40:39Oh, my goodness.
0:40:39 > 0:40:45This is 1926 and I think the date of this one is quite interesting.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47July 5th.
0:40:47 > 0:40:51Once we are into June and July, this is the parading season.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55Oh, this is when the religious parades happen.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59It is. The number of arrests for breach of the peace will just rocket
0:40:59 > 0:41:01during these summer months and it looks as though
0:41:01 > 0:41:04your grandfather's been caught up in that.
0:41:07 > 0:41:10For over two centuries, members of the Orange Order
0:41:10 > 0:41:13have held marches during the summer months to commemorate
0:41:13 > 0:41:16the Protestant William of Orange's defeat
0:41:16 > 0:41:19of the Catholic James II.
0:41:23 > 0:41:27When Hugh Cairns was a young man in interwar Glasgow,
0:41:27 > 0:41:29these parades often became flash points for violence
0:41:29 > 0:41:32between the city's Catholic and Protestant communities.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39If we read along, we can see a fine again.
0:41:39 > 0:41:4142 shillings.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43Or 20 days.
0:41:43 > 0:41:44What's really interesting is
0:41:44 > 0:41:47they've paid the fine on the day.
0:41:47 > 0:41:48How have they managed that?
0:41:48 > 0:41:50Oh, maybe he's part of a...
0:41:52 > 0:41:54He's part of some kind of...
0:41:56 > 0:41:57- ..gang, or...- That's got to be
0:41:57 > 0:42:00- at least a possibility here. - They paid for him.- Yes.
0:42:02 > 0:42:06In the 1920s and '30s, working-class areas of Glasgow
0:42:06 > 0:42:09gained a reputation for gang violence
0:42:09 > 0:42:13fuelled by high levels of poverty and unemployment.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17And Glasgow's gangsters became particularly notorious
0:42:17 > 0:42:20for their weapon of choice - the razor.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25There's a picture of my grandfather
0:42:25 > 0:42:28and it was pointed out to me that he had a scar
0:42:28 > 0:42:31right around the side of his face.
0:42:31 > 0:42:33- See there?- Oh, yes.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36You see right around his mouth there?
0:42:36 > 0:42:40That's got all the hallmarks of gang fighting.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42There's no hiding that.
0:42:42 > 0:42:46This gives you an idea of the kind of razors that people were using.
0:42:46 > 0:42:48Eugh!
0:42:49 > 0:42:50Eugh!
0:42:50 > 0:42:52I remember when I was a child
0:42:52 > 0:42:53a lot of men having scars.
0:42:53 > 0:42:59And I think people outside Glasgow would call that scar, you know,
0:42:59 > 0:43:02the one from the ear to the mouth,
0:43:02 > 0:43:04they would say that was a Glasgow grin.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06I think for someone like your grandfather,
0:43:06 > 0:43:08who was obviously a fighting man,
0:43:08 > 0:43:11it might almost have been a badge of honour.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13Mm-hm. You know, I heard it said...
0:43:13 > 0:43:15If you came from the kind of background he came from,
0:43:15 > 0:43:19or I came from, men had to be boxers,
0:43:19 > 0:43:23or make their name being a footballer.
0:43:23 > 0:43:29But the other alternative was to be in a gang, to be a villain.
0:43:29 > 0:43:33And you had no other way of progressing, you know.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36The problem is, once you're involved in that kind of world...
0:43:36 > 0:43:39- You can't get out. - ..it's difficult to get out.
0:43:39 > 0:43:43So, Lulu, if I show you another record from Barlinnie.
0:43:43 > 0:43:48Oh! "Hugh Cairns, 1928."
0:43:48 > 0:43:51- And this is March. "Assault..." - "Assault and previous convictions."
0:43:51 > 0:43:53"Assault and previous convictions."
0:43:53 > 0:43:59But this is March, it's nothing to do with the religious marches.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02"March 17th."
0:44:02 > 0:44:05It's St Patrick's night, isn't it?
0:44:05 > 0:44:08Oh, so he's drunk.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13He was in a fight, and my grandmother suffers
0:44:13 > 0:44:16and quite clearly my mother suffered
0:44:16 > 0:44:20because this was when she was first given away.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23I mean, right now, I want to kill him.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26You know, really, I want to just...
0:44:26 > 0:44:28You know, I'm angry with him.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31I understand that they're poor and everything's tough.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33I am really...
0:44:37 > 0:44:39..so sad.
0:44:42 > 0:44:44I mean,
0:44:44 > 0:44:45I feel sorry for them all.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Lulu has discovered that over the course of ten years
0:44:53 > 0:44:57her grandfather, Hugh, was imprisoned no fewer than ten times.
0:44:59 > 0:45:03Thinking about my grandparents' life makes me see how
0:45:03 > 0:45:08really awful their struggle was.
0:45:08 > 0:45:13He, I think, had to be in a gang, or be nothing.
0:45:13 > 0:45:18Not to negate the fact that he made choices that were not smart.
0:45:18 > 0:45:19And weren't wise.
0:45:20 > 0:45:23Her, I think,
0:45:23 > 0:45:25she married a wrong 'un, actually.
0:45:25 > 0:45:31I don't know anybody who was in and out of jail like that,
0:45:31 > 0:45:35you know, and I felt I came from a tough part of Glasgow.
0:45:35 > 0:45:38But what makes me sad is that my mother never got that part.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40Never got this information.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44So she didn't know that, you know,
0:45:44 > 0:45:46she was ultimately lucky.
0:45:50 > 0:45:54Lulu knows that despite her grandfather Hugh's criminal record,
0:45:54 > 0:45:57her grandmother Helen stayed with him
0:45:57 > 0:45:58and that after her mother's birth,
0:45:58 > 0:46:00they had three more children together.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09She now wants to go one generation further back,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12to learn more about the staunchly Protestant family
0:46:12 > 0:46:14from which her grandmother came.
0:46:17 > 0:46:21From a very early age, I was very conscious of being a Protestant.
0:46:21 > 0:46:25And you're sort of sworn enemies, even if you don't understand it.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28It was just confusing that there was this, you know,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31"Oh, tut, tut, tut. Oh, you can't go there.
0:46:31 > 0:46:32"You can't be going with them.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34"They're different to us."
0:46:34 > 0:46:38I didn't... Children don't see a difference, so...
0:46:38 > 0:46:42I remember my Uncle Jim saying that he though his grandmother's family
0:46:42 > 0:46:44were involved with the Orange Lodge.
0:46:44 > 0:46:45Um...
0:46:47 > 0:46:49So I'd like to know if they were.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52How involved they were.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57To find out about her family's role in the Orange Order,
0:46:57 > 0:47:00Lulu has come to the Orange Lodge an Tullis Street,
0:47:00 > 0:47:01in Glasgow's East End
0:47:01 > 0:47:06to meet historian Professor Elaine McFarland.
0:47:06 > 0:47:13I believe my grandmother's family were involved with the Orange Lodge.
0:47:13 > 0:47:14- They certainly were.- They were?
0:47:14 > 0:47:18Your great-grandmother, Helen Orr Kennedy,
0:47:18 > 0:47:20was very involved.
0:47:20 > 0:47:21My grandmother was Helen too.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24- They were both called Helen. - Yes, they were both called Helen.
0:47:24 > 0:47:26- There she is. - I think she looks like me.
0:47:26 > 0:47:28She has a wee, fat face.
0:47:29 > 0:47:35This is the register of the Ladies Orange Lodge 52.
0:47:35 > 0:47:39And that's their banner just behind you there.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41Yes, I saw that, Brisby's Daughters of the Covenant.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44And if you have a wee look...
0:47:44 > 0:47:49The date at the top is March 1927 to March 1928.
0:47:49 > 0:47:50Oh, there she is. Mrs Helen Kennedy.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53This is the list of all the people in the Lodge.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56She is the very first one, as you notice in the list.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58- She's the top?- She's the top dog.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00What does WM stand for?
0:48:00 > 0:48:01Worthy mistress.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03So she ran the whole shebang?
0:48:03 > 0:48:04She ran the shebang, yeah.
0:48:04 > 0:48:06And there's 165 women.
0:48:06 > 0:48:07Is that a lot of women?
0:48:07 > 0:48:10It is a lot. That is quite a big Lodge.
0:48:12 > 0:48:18The first Ladies Orange Lodges opened in Scotland in 1909.
0:48:18 > 0:48:19They soon became a mass movement,
0:48:19 > 0:48:23thanks to the opportunities they offered working-class women -
0:48:23 > 0:48:26like Lulu's great-grandmother, Helen Orr Kennedy -
0:48:26 > 0:48:29to socialise and play a bigger part in public life.
0:48:32 > 0:48:38By the early 1930s, Scotland boasted more Orange women than men.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41We can look a wee bit more closely at what she actually did
0:48:41 > 0:48:44in this Lodge - this is the minute book.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47You'll see that Helen is very much in the chair.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50"16th March, 1922.
0:48:50 > 0:48:56"Sister Kennedy, the WM, asked the visiting brethren
0:48:56 > 0:49:00"to wait for a cup of tea. A dance followed
0:49:00 > 0:49:04"which lasted until about two in the morning."
0:49:04 > 0:49:06- So they had a good time.- Yeah. - It was very sociable.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09Very. That was an important bit of the attraction.
0:49:09 > 0:49:11It's that social dimension.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13And she was pretty much running the show.
0:49:13 > 0:49:18Yes. And this is the symbol of her authority.
0:49:18 > 0:49:19This is of the period.
0:49:19 > 0:49:21This is the gavel.
0:49:21 > 0:49:23- Her gavel.- "Order, order." - Can I just have a go?
0:49:23 > 0:49:25- Of course, yes.- Order!
0:49:25 > 0:49:28Let's have some order! She had a big loud voice, like me, probably.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30I bet she did. I bet she did.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32This is actually the Bible.
0:49:32 > 0:49:33This represents the Bible,
0:49:33 > 0:49:36because the Order saw itself
0:49:36 > 0:49:39as grounded in scriptural principles.
0:49:39 > 0:49:43But there's more here of what she's up to.
0:49:43 > 0:49:47"Sister Kennedy asked for a large turnout of our members
0:49:47 > 0:49:50"at church parades."
0:49:50 > 0:49:54So these parades, what was Helen Kennedy's role?
0:49:54 > 0:49:59- She would have led the parade.- Got to be quite...fearless to do that.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02Yeah, they would command the streets, with Helen...
0:50:02 > 0:50:05- In the front? - ..leading the way, yeah.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08She climbed up the hierarchy.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10- She did!- Let's just have a look at these.
0:50:10 > 0:50:12This is the Grand Lodge of Scotland.
0:50:12 > 0:50:16That was the governing body of the whole Orange Order.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18So it says here,
0:50:18 > 0:50:22"Minutes of ladies' conference, October meeting. 1929.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26"Sister Mrs Kennedy, Worthy Grand Mistress, occupied the chair."
0:50:26 > 0:50:28So, Worthy Grand Mistress.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30- So she's the chair of the...? - She's...
0:50:30 > 0:50:32The head of the whole Lodge?
0:50:32 > 0:50:35Top woman. She actually was the first to hold that position.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38So she was a trailblazer.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41Look, it says here. I've just jumped straight in to this thing
0:50:41 > 0:50:43that says here, "The Grand Master,
0:50:43 > 0:50:46"on being invited to take the chair
0:50:46 > 0:50:51"returned the mallet of authority to Sister Mrs Kennedy, WGM,
0:50:51 > 0:50:55"with the request that she should carry on.
0:50:55 > 0:50:58"He further gave the ruling that at all future conferences
0:50:58 > 0:51:01"the Worthy Grand Mistress conduct the business,
0:51:01 > 0:51:05"as the Sisters were well qualified to undertake not only that duty,
0:51:05 > 0:51:09"but any other duty in connection with their association."
0:51:09 > 0:51:11Period, finished, the end.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14The women's Lodge, although it was so successful,
0:51:14 > 0:51:17had been subordinate to the male Lodge.
0:51:17 > 0:51:22And the women's section meetings had always, until then,
0:51:22 > 0:51:24been chaired by a man.
0:51:24 > 0:51:27That was a really important moment.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30- For women.- Also for Helen.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33The recognition of her standing, her personal standing.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36This is a working-class woman, from the East End of Glasgow,
0:51:36 > 0:51:39who has worked her way through the Lodge hierarchy
0:51:39 > 0:51:43into this really responsible public position.
0:51:43 > 0:51:47But how did my great-grandmother square away the issue
0:51:47 > 0:51:52that she had such an important role in the Orange Lodge,
0:51:52 > 0:51:58and her daughter was married to a Catholic jailbird?
0:51:58 > 0:52:02It would have been a very difficult situation for her.
0:52:02 > 0:52:07Now, this is the rules of the women's Orange Lodges of the time.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09Looking at this,
0:52:09 > 0:52:14you can get a flavour of the attitudes towards Catholicism.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17"Should any member marry a Roman Catholic,
0:52:17 > 0:52:20"she shall forthwith be expelled if,
0:52:20 > 0:52:23"after fair trial, the offence has been proved."
0:52:23 > 0:52:27That's how serious they treated marrying a Catholic.
0:52:27 > 0:52:31It was one of the primary grounds for expulsion.
0:52:31 > 0:52:36But, obviously, she carried enough weight with her colleagues
0:52:36 > 0:52:40that it didn't derail her progress in the Order.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43What eventually happened to her?
0:52:43 > 0:52:47She continued to have a very prominent role in the Orange Order.
0:52:47 > 0:52:51And she was involved right up to her death in 1943.
0:52:51 > 0:52:55And she's buried in Rutherglen.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57I would have loved to have met her.
0:53:10 > 0:53:11Lulu wants to end her journey with
0:53:11 > 0:53:15a visit to her great-grandmother's grave at Rutherglen Cemetery.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20I am delighted
0:53:20 > 0:53:25that my great-grandmother was a woman who was so strong.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29I just like her. I would like to have known her.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32She came from nothing. That's what's so amazing.
0:53:32 > 0:53:33I come from nothing,
0:53:33 > 0:53:37so I wouldn't put myself in the same position as her,
0:53:37 > 0:53:40because I've been very lucky, you know.
0:53:40 > 0:53:43I've had a lot of people help me when I was a young kid.
0:53:43 > 0:53:46But I don't know who helped her.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48I think she just did it all on her own.
0:53:48 > 0:53:50And...
0:53:50 > 0:53:53Yeah, that's given me some joy.
0:53:55 > 0:54:00All the information I have found out about my grandmother Helen
0:54:00 > 0:54:03and my grandfather Hugh is tough.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05It's tough information.
0:54:05 > 0:54:08I actually wonder what the relationship was like between
0:54:08 > 0:54:10my great-grandmother and my grandmother -
0:54:10 > 0:54:12two seemingly completely different people.
0:54:33 > 0:54:37This is the index of graves, Rutherglen Cemetery.
0:54:37 > 0:54:42If I jump to the bottom, my great-grandmother, Helen Kennedy,
0:54:42 > 0:54:4471 years old.
0:54:45 > 0:54:49Oh, wow. Helen Kennedy Cairns.
0:54:49 > 0:54:5031 years.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55That's my grandmother.
0:54:55 > 0:55:00She's buried with her mother in the same grave.
0:55:00 > 0:55:01My goodness.
0:55:03 > 0:55:09Lulu's great-grandmother, Helen Orr Kennedy, died in 1943,
0:55:09 > 0:55:10at the age of 71,
0:55:10 > 0:55:13outliving her daughter, Lulu's grandmother,
0:55:13 > 0:55:16Helen Kennedy Cairns, by eight years.
0:55:19 > 0:55:25I've also got here a newspaper article, the Belfast Weekly News.
0:55:25 > 0:55:29Scotch Orange Notes, Glasgow Bridgeton.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32"The members of this Lodge held their annual meeting,
0:55:32 > 0:55:36"the WM made sympathetic reference to the loss sustained by
0:55:36 > 0:55:40"Sister Mrs Kennedy in the death of one of her daughters.
0:55:40 > 0:55:45"In token of sympathy, one minute's silence was observed."
0:55:45 > 0:55:48That's very generous, I think.
0:55:48 > 0:55:52That no matter what the differences were about religion,
0:55:52 > 0:55:55they acknowledged my grandmother's death.
0:56:00 > 0:56:04The one sadness is that my mother didn't know
0:56:04 > 0:56:07all the pieces that I know.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11And she didn't really get to know her real family.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22There she is.
0:56:22 > 0:56:28"In loving memory of our Worthy Mistress, Helen Orr Kennedy,
0:56:28 > 0:56:32"died 28th February, 1943.
0:56:32 > 0:56:38"From the Sisters of the Ladies Loyal Orange Lodge 52."
0:56:39 > 0:56:41Quite clearly, they were poor.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43They didn't have money.
0:56:43 > 0:56:46There's a lot of amazing gravestones here.
0:56:46 > 0:56:50It looks like it's probably the smallest one.
0:56:53 > 0:56:56When you think of my great-grandmother
0:56:56 > 0:57:02and how she strived to be the very best she could be, and be strong,
0:57:02 > 0:57:07and, you know, live a purposeful life.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11And then you think of my poor grandmother, dying at the age of 31,
0:57:11 > 0:57:15after having seven children, and a husband who was, really,
0:57:15 > 0:57:17not the best choice.
0:57:17 > 0:57:20The fact that they're buried in the same grave
0:57:20 > 0:57:24does suggest that, despite all the troubles,
0:57:24 > 0:57:28and the religious fighting that went on
0:57:28 > 0:57:31between my grandmother and her husband,
0:57:31 > 0:57:33and her own mother...
0:57:35 > 0:57:39..there was a bond that wasn't broken.