0:00:02 > 0:00:06Actor and Londoner Lisa Hammond is best known as sharp-tongued market
0:00:06 > 0:00:09stall holder Donna Yates from EastEnders.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Being from an East End family, I grew up watching EastEnders.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17Julia Crampsie, who cast it, her words to me was,
0:00:17 > 0:00:20"We wanted a gobby market stall trader
0:00:20 > 0:00:23"and you're the first person I thought of."
0:00:25 > 0:00:30Up here, next to the smelly fish stall, is my stall.
0:00:32 > 0:00:33I thought you was over him?
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Or are you hoping to get back under him?
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Donna! I'm sorry.
0:00:38 > 0:00:40- Happy birthday.- Yeah, thanks.
0:00:40 > 0:00:41What?
0:00:42 > 0:00:45There's something about being disabled
0:00:45 > 0:00:49that people have no expectation of your life,
0:00:49 > 0:00:51in terms of what you do as a job.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56So when you become an actor or a creative, people are like, "Great!"
0:00:57 > 0:01:01Lisa began her career as a child actor on Grange Hill.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05Since then, she's appeared regularly on stage and television.
0:01:05 > 0:01:06I think I'm from London.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09I feel very connected with city.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13I like the fact that, if you might fall over,
0:01:13 > 0:01:15someone might step over you.
0:01:15 > 0:01:16That's why I like it here.
0:01:16 > 0:01:17I like anonymity.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23In London, I could be fat, thin, tall, small, wheelchair user.
0:01:23 > 0:01:24No-one cares.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28I used to cry buckets when my mum used to take me
0:01:28 > 0:01:33to my Aunt Linda's house in Oxford and I'd be going, "It's too green!
0:01:33 > 0:01:36"I don't like it! It smells!"
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Lisa's parents separated when she was six.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Although she's always stayed in touch with her dad,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44she and her older sister, Nicola, grew up with their mum.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48My mum's mum died when she was around 17.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51And my mum's dad died when she was around six.
0:01:51 > 0:01:55So the connection to the past was gone,
0:01:55 > 0:01:57because she didn't even know about my grandad.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02Very, very rarely saw my dad's dad.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05So I don't know anything.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09But I hope to discover...
0:02:11 > 0:02:13..that I'm not from the country!
0:02:48 > 0:02:53Lisa's starting her search with her paternal grandfather, Harry Hammond.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55On my hands, I can count the times that I met Harry,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57so I know nothing about Harry.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00Where he came from, nothing.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04The story in my family was that he was in the army,
0:03:04 > 0:03:09but there's conflicting sort of stories as to what part.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12Harry's a bit of a mystery.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16She's come to north London to visit her Uncle Chris.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21Lisa's grandparents separated when Chris was ten and he stayed with his
0:03:21 > 0:03:23father, her grandfather.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27- Hello!- You all right? - Yeah, you?
0:03:29 > 0:03:34Lisa's Cousin Katy and Aunt Angela are also here to see her.
0:03:34 > 0:03:35Do you remember him?
0:03:35 > 0:03:38I'm younger than you so I probably know even less.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Yeah, our family is a total mystery.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Absolutely, honestly.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46I lived with Grandad for about 15 years.
0:03:46 > 0:03:47- Right.- Just us two.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Wow.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52- But, as I say...- You still sort of don't know him?
0:03:52 > 0:03:54Not really, not his earlier life.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57He's not been dead that long and he's lived with you
0:03:57 > 0:03:59but yet none of us...
0:03:59 > 0:04:01don't know what's...
0:04:01 > 0:04:05None the wiser. He would just clam up about his earlier life.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07After her grandparents died,
0:04:07 > 0:04:11Lisa's Uncle Chris inherited their few remaining family photographs.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13And there's Grandad Harry.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15- What's he drinking?- My milk.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17I was busy eating a toffee apple.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21And that's got to be 1960.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23He looks quite handsome, doesn't he?
0:04:23 > 0:04:29See, it's so strange, Chris, cos I can't picture him, in a way.
0:04:29 > 0:04:34- Really?- Like, I sort of picture him as a sort of still person.
0:04:34 > 0:04:35I can't imagine him again.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38- Yeah.- But it's cos I didn't see him much.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42What was he like, like, as a person?
0:04:42 > 0:04:47Well, to the people he knew, he was quite gregarious.
0:04:47 > 0:04:53- Yeah.- But he loved his horse racing, his couple of pints.
0:04:53 > 0:04:54He was not an excessive drinker.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57There's the family portrait.
0:05:00 > 0:05:05Grandad again, Annie, Daddy and me.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Thing is, everybody knew him as Harry, but he was born
0:05:09 > 0:05:12Henry George Hammond.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13Henry.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16And there's a death certificate.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19As you can see, Henry George.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23And he passed away in October 1995.
0:05:23 > 0:05:29Did Grandad ever tell you about what he did in terms of his job?
0:05:29 > 0:05:32There was talk of sort of an army background.
0:05:32 > 0:05:37I did have a picture, it was either of me or Daddy in his arms,
0:05:37 > 0:05:41but I cannot, for the life of me, remember what uniform it was.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44But he would never talk about the war.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Whether something really bad happened to him
0:05:47 > 0:05:49or he lost a lot of friends
0:05:49 > 0:05:52and just blocked it out and never wanted to talk about it.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56I'm really not sure.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58There's no information about Harry.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03So I'd like to find out more about what he did in the war,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06what is this war connection and what happened to him
0:06:06 > 0:06:09to make him not want to talk about it.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22So I'm going online to look at a register of everyone
0:06:22 > 0:06:24when the war broke out.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26So search for relatives.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31Henry...Hammond.
0:06:33 > 0:06:341923.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38There he is, straight away.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Henry G Hammond.
0:06:41 > 0:06:441923, Shoreditch, London.
0:06:45 > 0:06:46Preview.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50Oh. Here he is.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53Hammond household.
0:06:53 > 0:06:58Minnie JE Hammond is also on this record.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01Who's Minnie?
0:07:01 > 0:07:06Female, was born 17th March, 1878.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Is that his mum?
0:07:09 > 0:07:10It's just them two.
0:07:13 > 0:07:14Where's his dad?
0:07:16 > 0:07:23And we've got Henry, Harry, as "S".
0:07:23 > 0:07:24Single?
0:07:26 > 0:07:32And Hammond, Minnie JE - "W".
0:07:34 > 0:07:35Widow.
0:07:36 > 0:07:42So his dad was dead, he was living with his mum and he was only 16
0:07:42 > 0:07:47and he was working, clearly, as a wheel builder.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52And Minnie... "unpaid domestic duties".
0:07:52 > 0:07:55They're clearly not rich people, they're working-class people.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01So if the war started in 1939, did he get called up?
0:08:03 > 0:08:07If he was signed up, then he should be here.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09Search Second World War.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12British Army casualty list.
0:08:15 > 0:08:16I wonder what happened to him?
0:08:19 > 0:08:21So they're all Hammonds.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven Hammonds.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28One of them must be him.
0:08:28 > 0:08:29Must be.
0:08:30 > 0:08:31So he was in the war.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41To discover what happened to her grandfather, Harry,
0:08:41 > 0:08:43also known as Henry, during the war,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Lisa's come to the Imperial War Museum in London.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54She's meeting with historian Dr Amy Fox.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56Thank you. A little bit of research of my own.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01- OK.- In order to help you narrow down your search for your grandfather.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05- Thank you.- And came up with this list here.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08There he is, Hammond.
0:09:08 > 0:09:0910th.
0:09:11 > 0:09:12So 10th Battalion.
0:09:12 > 0:09:18- Right, Royal Berkshire Regiment. - Yep.
0:09:18 > 0:09:25And it says, "Date of casualty 11/11/1943."
0:09:27 > 0:09:28Italy.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31So, to give you a little bit more information,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34I've got Henry's service record.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36So record of service paper.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39Hammond, Henry.
0:09:39 > 0:09:44Deemed to have been enlisted, 19th of the 2nd, '42.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49So this is an 18-year-old boy.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52He spends four months doing general training before he joins this
0:09:52 > 0:09:54particular battalion, the 10th Battalion,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56the Royal Berkshire Regiment.
0:09:56 > 0:10:01And what's important to note is, in August 1942,
0:10:01 > 0:10:03he goes overseas to Italy.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07So he's just an East End boy with only his mum in the house
0:10:07 > 0:10:11and then he does a tiny amount of training
0:10:11 > 0:10:15and then the journey to Italy.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17It's then actually happening, isn't it?
0:10:17 > 0:10:19I can't imagine what was going through his head.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27In October 1943, Harry Hammond's battalion landed in Salerno,
0:10:27 > 0:10:28southern Italy.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34The Italian campaign was one of the most vicious and costly
0:10:34 > 0:10:37of World War II, with over 300,000 Allied casualties
0:10:37 > 0:10:39during 20 months of fighting.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45After only basic training,
0:10:45 > 0:10:48Harry fought his way up the west coast of Italy towards Rome.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53Someone like Henry is having to fight in some of the most atrocious
0:10:53 > 0:10:54weather conditions.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I mean, it's rivers you have to forge,
0:10:56 > 0:10:58you have to fight in mountains,
0:10:58 > 0:11:02it's cold, the wind cutting through them like a knife.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05It's really, really miserable conditions.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07You're not especially trained for this.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10So this is really, really tough going.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12And the Germans have been here a long time,
0:11:12 > 0:11:15- they have lots of defensive lines. - They're well-established.
0:11:15 > 0:11:16Very well-established.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20- And also, the other side know that terrain.- They know they're coming.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23So, you know, they've got knowledge of what's coming next,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26so they can catch people out, you know.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29In order to keep going up their advance towards Rome,
0:11:29 > 0:11:32they needed to take Monte Camino,
0:11:32 > 0:11:36which is a gateway almost to the capture of Rome.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38He's holding a position called Bare Arse Ridge.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Presumably because it's very exposed!
0:11:43 > 0:11:47And is subject to a number of German counterattacks.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49When you think of the mountain tops with all those crevices,
0:11:49 > 0:11:52it's really, really difficult to work out where everyone is
0:11:52 > 0:11:53at any given time.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56These conditions will test any man's mettle.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00And in that kind of hubbub, the confusion of battle,
0:12:00 > 0:12:02Henry goes missing.
0:12:04 > 0:12:05Missing?
0:12:07 > 0:12:10And it tells us the date that that happens.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13- What happened?- That could mean all manner of things.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Whether Henry's deserted.
0:12:16 > 0:12:17So, gone absent without leave.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20- Right.- He could have been seriously wounded.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Or he could have been captured by the other side.
0:12:22 > 0:12:23So where would he have gone missing?
0:12:23 > 0:12:26So he would have gone missing just around here,
0:12:26 > 0:12:28between Caserta and Cassino.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31I can put you in touch with someone who was there at the time
0:12:31 > 0:12:34and will be able to explain to you what Henry would have experienced
0:12:34 > 0:12:38and what kind of conditions he would have had to have faced.
0:12:38 > 0:12:39I'd love to find out.
0:12:39 > 0:12:43Well, it's a bit of a weird one, isn't it?
0:12:43 > 0:12:46I don't know whether I want to find out, it sounds horrible.
0:12:46 > 0:12:47- Hello.- Hello.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50Amy has tracked down a veteran of the Italian campaign
0:12:50 > 0:12:53for Lisa to meet, 97-year-old Doug Wayhort.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55- Very pleased to meet you. - You, too.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Like Lisa's grandfather, he fought in the Allied assault
0:12:58 > 0:13:00on southern Italy.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02The beginning of November,
0:13:02 > 0:13:06the second attack went in and your grandfather's regiment
0:13:06 > 0:13:07was in that attack.
0:13:09 > 0:13:10The same one as you?
0:13:10 > 0:13:13- Yeah.- So it's possible, is what you're saying,
0:13:13 > 0:13:19- that you met my grandad?- We were on Monte Camino at the same time.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Fighting next to him.
0:13:21 > 0:13:22Yes.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28What was it like there?
0:13:30 > 0:13:32Fairly...
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Fairly intense, the fighting.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Many, many casualties, cos the Germans,
0:13:38 > 0:13:43they were looking down on us, and their snipers were very good shots.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Amy talked a lot about the mountains and how the terrain was so bad.
0:13:49 > 0:13:54It was. The mountains were mainly rock, you couldn't dig in.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59The German artillery fire along the mountains,
0:13:59 > 0:14:03shells landed and there was rock pieces flying all over the place.
0:14:03 > 0:14:04They were quite lethal.
0:14:13 > 0:14:21My grandad apparently went missing in Monte Camino in November 1943.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24- Yes.- I still don't know what happened to him.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26Well, it says here...
0:14:28 > 0:14:34- What's this? His service record? - Yeah. The POW denotes
0:14:34 > 0:14:39he was a prisoner of war from 11th of April 1943,
0:14:39 > 0:14:45till he was released on 26th April 1945.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Wow. That's amazing.
0:14:47 > 0:14:48That's a long time.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53So I'm totally not surprised that he didn't want to talk about it.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57No. I mean, I'd understand that.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Many men didn't talk about anything.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12Meeting Doug was amazing.
0:15:12 > 0:15:16The fact that he was in the same place as Harry, at the same time,
0:15:16 > 0:15:18I thought was extraordinary.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21And discovering Harry was a prisoner of war.
0:15:22 > 0:15:27So I want to find out where he was, and what that was like.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29I'm a bit nervous about it.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31I feel a bit...
0:15:31 > 0:15:33..I don't know, a bit shaky,
0:15:33 > 0:15:36cos it's becoming more of a reality for me now.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44Lisa's come to the British Red Cross Museum in London,
0:15:44 > 0:15:46which holds one of the country's biggest archives
0:15:46 > 0:15:47on prisoners of war.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51She's meeting military historian Stacy Astell.
0:15:53 > 0:15:58My grandad was a prisoner of war for almost 18 months.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00I don't know where he was.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05So, here for you, we've actually got your grandfather's POW record
0:16:05 > 0:16:07from when he was released.
0:16:07 > 0:16:08So we've got...
0:16:10 > 0:16:15General questionnaire for British, American ex-prisoners of war.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17Harry Hammond.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21Original place of capture, Italy.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27Main camps or hospitals in which imprisoned.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Location - Mooseburg.
0:16:32 > 0:16:33Muleburg.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37Hartmansdorf.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39So he was in three different camps.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43After being captured in Italy,
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Harry was taken through enemy territory to Mooseburg,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48a vast camp in Nazi Germany.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54Here, he was imprisoned with tens of thousands of other Allied soldiers...
0:16:55 > 0:16:58..before being moved to another camp, and then another.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03So Minnie, Henry's mum,
0:17:03 > 0:17:07would she have been told that he was now in the camps?
0:17:07 > 0:17:09So she might not have found out immediately,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12but this is an example postcard that they get filled out.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15So you can see it's got the German post stamp on it there.
0:17:15 > 0:17:21So this would have been sent from the camp to the next of kin,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23to the person at home?
0:17:23 > 0:17:28SHE READS:
0:17:34 > 0:17:39This must have been horrific for Minnie, my great-grandmother.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41I don't know what's worse, in that sense,
0:17:41 > 0:17:45whether it's worse to not know anything
0:17:45 > 0:17:49or to start imagining what the conditions are like
0:17:49 > 0:17:51for your loved one in that case.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55So, "Please do not write to this address."
0:17:55 > 0:17:58Because they were going to maybe get moved?
0:17:58 > 0:17:59So a lot of people would get moved
0:17:59 > 0:18:01after they'd initially been registered.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05So this is with Mooseburg, that's what happened to Henry.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08He started out in Mooseburg but was there for a very short period
0:18:08 > 0:18:12of time and then be moved off to the next camp.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14And then after a few months there, was moved on again.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17What would these camps have been like?
0:18:17 > 0:18:19So the first camp he's in is Mooseburg
0:18:19 > 0:18:22and this was one of the larger camps for the prisoners.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26Initially, this was designed to hold about 10,000 people.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30But actually, later in the war, it was holding about 70,000.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32So, definitely when he was there,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35it would have been very crowded and a very hard situation
0:18:35 > 0:18:39for him to be in. The prisoners were kept in long, low bunks,
0:18:39 > 0:18:43sometimes huts, which would hold quite a lot of people.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46There would be a huge amount of prisoners all in one space,
0:18:46 > 0:18:49so there wasn't much private time or personal space or anything like that
0:18:49 > 0:18:53- either.- It says here that he was working on the railway.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55So, some of the railway work,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58we do actually have a photograph of some prisoners of war
0:18:58 > 0:18:59- working on a railway.- Wow.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01You can see here, this is some of the heavy labour
0:19:01 > 0:19:03that they would have been engaged in.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05So you can see here, they're carrying the huge beams.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08These are the prisoners of war. God, that looks tough.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Yeah. So you can see the weight of the things that they're carrying.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Near these camps, it was actually very cold.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17In the winters, the prisoners would sometimes have to clear the snow and
0:19:17 > 0:19:20they could be cutting out up to a foot square of snow
0:19:20 > 0:19:22to move blocks of it.
0:19:22 > 0:19:27What would their day have looked like, in terms of what they ate?
0:19:27 > 0:19:31In some cases, their breakfast would consist of an ersatz coffee,
0:19:31 > 0:19:33which was essentially just crushed chestnuts
0:19:33 > 0:19:35or something to that effect.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38For midday, they sometimes got some food, they sometimes didn't.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41So it might be, like, quite a thin soup.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44And then for evening meal, it was usually again a thin soup,
0:19:44 > 0:19:48which may sometimes have some bits of meat in it, or some vegetables.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51So some of these men were very severely malnourished.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55And I have a picture here of some of the men sat around in a camp.
0:19:57 > 0:19:58That's horrific, isn't it?
0:20:02 > 0:20:06It's the sort of skeleton-y look that they...
0:20:06 > 0:20:08You know, like, so prominent.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12It was a very tough time, obviously.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Some of the prisoners could end up weighing something like six stone
0:20:15 > 0:20:17by the time they finally got home.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19So they were very severely malnourished.
0:20:19 > 0:20:24It's making me think about Harry and the fact that my Uncle Chris
0:20:24 > 0:20:30and my dad know nothing of this, of his experience there.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32He did not talk about the war.
0:20:32 > 0:20:37So I wonder how, mentally, he... where he put that.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40I don't think it's possible to go through a situation like
0:20:40 > 0:20:41that without some issues.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44One of the things that came out of it was a condition which men would
0:20:44 > 0:20:48sometimes refer to as being stalag loopy, or barbed wire madness.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51And that could lead to men just literally sitting, staring out
0:20:51 > 0:20:54through the barbed wire and that would be them.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58They would sometimes end up engaging in quite repetitive behaviour
0:20:58 > 0:21:00and sometimes rocking backwards and forwards.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04It was a very hard situation for them to be in.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07Harry was there for 18 months.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10So what happened to him after he was freed?
0:21:11 > 0:21:14So I actually have his service record here for you.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17And just down at the bottom, it'll actually tell you a little bit.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19As you can see, towards the end of the war,
0:21:19 > 0:21:21it'll tell you what happened then.
0:21:21 > 0:21:27So it says, "PA, number five, civil resettlement unit.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29- "Bally..."- Ballymena.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32"Ballymena, NI.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35"Northern Ireland, UK."
0:21:45 > 0:21:47In April 1945,
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Harry Hammond was freed from the camp and returned to London.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58To discover what happened to him once he arrived home,
0:21:58 > 0:22:00Lisa's come to Kneller Hall in Twickenham.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06She's meeting historian Dr Alice White.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12I found out that my grandad went to a civil resettlement unit,
0:22:12 > 0:22:13and I don't know what that is.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18Civil resettlement units were special places set up,
0:22:18 > 0:22:22created by psychiatrists to help prisoners of war
0:22:22 > 0:22:25who had returned to the UK to readjust
0:22:25 > 0:22:28to being back in civil society.
0:22:28 > 0:22:32It was on a voluntary basis, so they could choose to go.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36So it was a way to get them used to back in their own country?
0:22:36 > 0:22:40It helped them to reconnect with society, which, in many ways,
0:22:40 > 0:22:42had changed a lot in their absence for many people.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44- Yeah.- And for Henry,
0:22:44 > 0:22:48we've got a reason why it would have been a particular change for him.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50So that's where...
0:22:50 > 0:22:5431 Bridport Place is where Harry lived with Minnie...
0:22:54 > 0:22:56- Yeah.- ..before the war.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59- Yeah. This is a report of bombing. - Oh!
0:22:59 > 0:23:02So we can see what's happened to the property throughout the course
0:23:02 > 0:23:04of the war.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07"Damage...major."
0:23:07 > 0:23:09So his house is no longer there.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Was Minnie involved in the bombing?
0:23:11 > 0:23:12No, Minnie was fine.
0:23:12 > 0:23:17OK. So he thinks he's going to get back to his life, his home,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20and there was no home to go to now.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Yeah, so he's coming back from...
0:23:22 > 0:23:25God, it's even worse, isn't it?
0:23:25 > 0:23:31Like, being freed to come home and then you've not even got that.
0:23:31 > 0:23:36Yeah. And it's great that Harry did attend the civil resettlement unit,
0:23:36 > 0:23:39cos of the amount of time that he spent in the prisoner of war camp,
0:23:39 > 0:23:43he was deemed to be a high-risk person.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46So he was traumatised by his experience?
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Yeah. He would have been one of the people they were particularly trying
0:23:49 > 0:23:51to target with this sort of a programme.
0:23:51 > 0:23:57One of the fascinating things is that until around 1941, '42,
0:23:57 > 0:23:59nobody thought that returning prisoners of war
0:23:59 > 0:24:02would have any psychological issues because they were believed
0:24:02 > 0:24:05to have been insulated from danger and, therefore,
0:24:05 > 0:24:07insulated from psychological trauma.
0:24:07 > 0:24:08Which...
0:24:08 > 0:24:12Well, that's completely not the case in hearing the conditions
0:24:12 > 0:24:14that they were in.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16There were horrific things that happened in the camp.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21So there's a real rethink on that point of view in the early 1940s,
0:24:21 > 0:24:23and as a result of that rethink,
0:24:23 > 0:24:28the army psychiatrists frantically try their best to sort of figure out
0:24:28 > 0:24:31what is the case for people like Harry?
0:24:31 > 0:24:34What sort of symptoms would he have had?
0:24:34 > 0:24:37This is his medical card and, as you can see,
0:24:37 > 0:24:39what we've got on his diagnosis here.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41It says...
0:24:43 > 0:24:46"Physical defects - physically fit.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49"Chronic field anxiety state."
0:24:51 > 0:24:55So he was struggling mentally at that point.
0:24:55 > 0:25:00Yeah, it suggests that he would have been experiencing symptoms
0:25:00 > 0:25:04such as a persistent state of general anxiety,
0:25:04 > 0:25:07but also things like nightmares and depression, potentially,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09- were connected with this kind of...- Right.
0:25:09 > 0:25:14..kind of diagnosis. So he had real psychological trauma,
0:25:14 > 0:25:15judging by this.
0:25:15 > 0:25:21So in terms of...if a soldier, or someone in this day and age,
0:25:21 > 0:25:24were to be diagnosed with something like that,
0:25:24 > 0:25:26what would the comparison be like?
0:25:26 > 0:25:28Nowadays, people would be diagnosed
0:25:28 > 0:25:31with something like post-traumatic stress disorder.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34That diagnosis didn't exist back in the Second World War,
0:25:34 > 0:25:36that was something that came out of Vietnam,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40but you can see some overlaps in the sort of symptoms.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42So would he have been treated for that?
0:25:42 > 0:25:45What the returning prisoners of war, like Harry,
0:25:45 > 0:25:48very often didn't realise was that there were a lot of psychological
0:25:48 > 0:25:50underpinnings to what they were doing.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53So there were things like group therapy,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55but it wasn't called group therapy.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58It was just an opportunity to have a group discussion with a group of
0:25:58 > 0:26:00other repatriated prisoners of war.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03And at that time, the world would not have been used to psychiatry
0:26:03 > 0:26:04and stuff like that.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07So it would have been even more edgy than it is today.
0:26:07 > 0:26:08Yeah, that's exactly it.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12And the psychiatrists were worried about men being frightened off if it
0:26:12 > 0:26:14looked too psychological.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16I wonder if he talked about it in the group.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20I wonder how open he was about what happened to him.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24This would have been a place where everyone there would have understood
0:26:24 > 0:26:26what it was like to be a prisoner of war.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28And we're here at Kneller Hall
0:26:28 > 0:26:30because this was a civil resettlement unit.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36To deal with their post-war trauma, many ex-prisoners of war,
0:26:36 > 0:26:37like Harry Hammond,
0:26:37 > 0:26:40took up the offer to go to civil resettlement units.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46Harry will have learnt new skills and joined group discussions
0:26:46 > 0:26:50and social events, all carefully designed to ease his transition
0:26:50 > 0:26:52back to normal life.
0:26:55 > 0:27:00Here's a newspaper article about the unit in Ballymena.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04- Which is where my grandad was.- The specific one he was at, yeah.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08It says, "Every dish was served at the table by ATS orderlies."
0:27:08 > 0:27:12- Yeah, so that would have been a member of the women's army.- OK.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17"The employment of the girls for the work was a vital factor because the
0:27:17 > 0:27:21"repatriates, through their long segregation,
0:27:21 > 0:27:25"had, in many cases, become frightened of women."
0:27:25 > 0:27:27Exactly, and they would have dances
0:27:27 > 0:27:29so that they could get used to being in female company again,
0:27:29 > 0:27:33- which I'm sure...- I bet that was nice after so long!- Yeah.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35And I think that, in the short term,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37it seems to have worked well for Harry,
0:27:37 > 0:27:39because he continued to serve.
0:27:39 > 0:27:44- He did.- He chose to remain in the army and linked with the army.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47I don't know if I'd want to do that after that experience,
0:27:47 > 0:27:48but good on him.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50We've got his military conduct and testimonial here.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53"Military conduct - good."
0:27:55 > 0:28:01"Honest and trustworthy and a good worker under supervision."
0:28:01 > 0:28:04- Aww.- So he had a glowing report, erm...
0:28:05 > 0:28:08- ..later on.- Oh, that's brilliant.
0:28:09 > 0:28:16So he managed to overcome at least some of his anxiety.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18Oh, good on him.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21- It can't have been easy for him.- No.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24- Finally.- A bit of light at the end of the tunnel.- Yeah.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31Maybe the CRU helped him at the time,
0:28:31 > 0:28:38but it sounds like my grandad had still some trauma going on.
0:28:38 > 0:28:41But he was working towards getting on with his life,
0:28:41 > 0:28:43moving on in his life.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Two years after leaving the civil resettlement unit,
0:28:47 > 0:28:52Harry Hammond married Lisa's grandmother, Lillian, in 1947.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Lisa's father, Peter, was born in 1950,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58followed in 1958 by her uncle, Chris.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02Harry never spoke to his sons about the war.
0:29:07 > 0:29:08He died aged 72.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14His ashes are buried at Worthing Crematorium in West Sussex.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20I've got details of a Henry George Hammond, who died
0:29:20 > 0:29:22on the 19th of October 1995.
0:29:22 > 0:29:26And his ashes are interred into one of the communal plots
0:29:26 > 0:29:31at section 35/21, which is on our main lawn up here.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42Before this journey, when I pictured Harry,
0:29:42 > 0:29:45I had no image, even, in my head.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47I can't even remember his face.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50And now when I think of my grandad
0:29:50 > 0:29:53I have something to think about,
0:29:53 > 0:29:56rather than just a name - Harry, Henry.
0:29:56 > 0:29:58I have someone in my head.
0:29:59 > 0:30:00And that's really lovely.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08So this is where you ended up!
0:30:13 > 0:30:18I know much more about him than even his sons do.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21So, yeah.
0:30:25 > 0:30:26That's for Daddy.
0:30:27 > 0:30:28That's for Chrissy.
0:31:00 > 0:31:05Lisa has returned to London and is on her way to see her mother, Janet.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07I know a little bit about my mum's dad and her mum,
0:31:07 > 0:31:12but not very much because she lost them when she was so young.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15Together, we did a bit of searching on the family tree,
0:31:15 > 0:31:19but I think she knows a bit more than I do.
0:31:19 > 0:31:24I'm expecting it to be fully London stock, like, going back.
0:31:30 > 0:31:32Hello?
0:31:34 > 0:31:36- Hello! - Hiya, kid! You all right?
0:31:39 > 0:31:40That's me at school.
0:31:40 > 0:31:41Aw...
0:31:41 > 0:31:45So that's the age I would have been when my dad died, probably,
0:31:45 > 0:31:48- I would have probably been about six there.- OK.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50So this is my mum and dad.
0:31:50 > 0:31:55My dad is Richard Henry Hilditch,
0:31:55 > 0:31:58and this is the family tree.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02- So there is...- So we've got me, Lisa Hammond at the bottom, then you,
0:32:02 > 0:32:07my mum, Janet Ann Hilditch and then we've got Richard, your dad,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11Richard Henry Hilditch, born 1908.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15Mile End. Died 1962.
0:32:15 > 0:32:20Shoreditch. His dad, your grandad...
0:32:20 > 0:32:22My grandfather, yeah.
0:32:22 > 0:32:26..was Richard Thomas Hilditch, born 1874, Mile End,
0:32:26 > 0:32:27dock labourer.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31So, East End, East End, again.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34It is pretty self-explanatory, dock labourer, isn't it?
0:32:35 > 0:32:37However, if you go back one generation...
0:32:37 > 0:32:39Can't keep up with it!
0:32:39 > 0:32:42Henry Hilditch, again, another Henry.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Born 1836, Stepney.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48Again, East End.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49Corn porter.
0:32:49 > 0:32:53Corn porters used to pack the corn into bags.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56- What, on the dock? - No, off the ships.
0:32:56 > 0:33:00So we've got your great-great-granddad,
0:33:00 > 0:33:07my great-grandad of three times, William Henry Hilditch,
0:33:07 > 0:33:13born 1797, Limehouse, died 1875, Mile End.
0:33:13 > 0:33:20And then, this is the 1851 census for William Henry
0:33:20 > 0:33:24and he is living at Limehouse.
0:33:24 > 0:33:28He's got Ann, who is his wife.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31So one, two, three kids.
0:33:31 > 0:33:35William Henry Hilditch, head of the family. Lighterman.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38- Lighterman?- I thought it is one of these ones that go around
0:33:38 > 0:33:40putting the gas lights out. But I can't see it.
0:33:41 > 0:33:46Dock labourer, foreman, painter, dock labourer, corn porter,
0:33:46 > 0:33:48it's all by the river.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51So we've got Stepney.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55I'm not surprised at all that my mum's side of the family
0:33:55 > 0:33:57is all from the East End.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59So that pleases me, in a way,
0:33:59 > 0:34:02because I feel connected with London.
0:34:02 > 0:34:07My three times great-grandfather William Henry Hilditch
0:34:07 > 0:34:08was a lighterman.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12I've not a clue what that means.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15I mean, they're round by the docks, so maybe something to do with that.
0:34:15 > 0:34:21But...I think were going to have to go to my manor, the East End.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46We are headed toward Limehouse,
0:34:46 > 0:34:51which is where William Henry Hilditch was born.
0:34:51 > 0:34:55And he was... All my family, all the great-grandfathers,
0:34:55 > 0:34:57all worked around the docks area,
0:34:57 > 0:35:00so we are now in the territory of where they worked.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03They're all luxury apartments now, obviously.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09But I guess they might have been quite poor.
0:35:13 > 0:35:14Not like the old days.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18- ANNOUNCEMENT:- When leaving the train please remember to take all
0:35:18 > 0:35:20your belongings with you.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31Lisa has travelled to one of London's oldest pubs,
0:35:31 > 0:35:34by the city's 19th-century docks.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37Her three times great-grandfather William Hilditch lived in this area.
0:35:39 > 0:35:41To find out more about his profession,
0:35:41 > 0:35:44she is meeting the historian Fiona Rule.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47So what did a lighterman do?
0:35:47 > 0:35:49So this picture is really interesting, actually,
0:35:49 > 0:35:51because it shows the London docks
0:35:51 > 0:35:55and in the foreground you've got a lighterman in his craft
0:35:55 > 0:35:59- which, as you can see, is just like an open barge, really.- Yeah.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02And so what is a lighterman, then?
0:36:02 > 0:36:05There's a lighterman in his barge, but what's he doing?
0:36:05 > 0:36:08What they did was they went right up alongside the ships
0:36:08 > 0:36:11and they took the cargo from the ships off the side,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13it was called unloading it offside,
0:36:13 > 0:36:17straight into their barges, the lighters were big, open barges,
0:36:17 > 0:36:20and stacked it up high and then took it out of the docks
0:36:20 > 0:36:23into the River Thames and along to the warehouses.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30In the 1820s, London was the world's busiest port...
0:36:31 > 0:36:33..bringing in goods from across the globe,
0:36:33 > 0:36:37including sugar from the Caribbean and spices from the Far East.
0:36:41 > 0:36:43Skilled lighterman, like William Hilditch,
0:36:43 > 0:36:47would gather in the docks, often at local pubs,
0:36:47 > 0:36:51in the hope of picking up jobs from ship captains and wharf owners.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56What would his life have been like?
0:36:56 > 0:36:59I wonder how poor they were.
0:36:59 > 0:37:03They were very hard-working people on the docks for very little reward,
0:37:03 > 0:37:05and a lot of the communities there were just,
0:37:05 > 0:37:09it was grinding poverty, all the time and feast and famine, really.
0:37:09 > 0:37:11You know, you'd get a lot of work coming in
0:37:11 > 0:37:14- and so you would make the most of it.- A bit like acting!
0:37:14 > 0:37:20It's like champagne one minute, and Savers' Beans the next.
0:37:20 > 0:37:23William had three kids.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25You said it was unpredictable.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27What did he do for money? Did he do well?
0:37:27 > 0:37:30What I've got here is an interesting document,
0:37:30 > 0:37:33which is incredibly difficult to read.
0:37:33 > 0:37:34- Wow.- You can have a go, if you want.
0:37:38 > 0:37:39"To the..."
0:37:41 > 0:37:44- Nah!- Here's a transcript.
0:37:44 > 0:37:49The petition of William Henry Hilditch, citizen and Carman.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52He's a carman, not a lighterman now.
0:37:52 > 0:37:57Yeah. Basically, I think we can read from this that the lighterman stuff
0:37:57 > 0:38:02simply wasn't as well paid enough for him to support his family,
0:38:02 > 0:38:05so he became a carman, which was, basically, the same thing
0:38:05 > 0:38:08as a lighterman, except they were transporting goods by road
0:38:08 > 0:38:11- instead of on the water. - From the dock?- From the docks.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13OK, so it says,
0:38:13 > 0:38:16"Hilditch citizen and carman candidate
0:38:16 > 0:38:19"for the office of Deputy Corn Meter."
0:38:19 > 0:38:21What does corn meter do?
0:38:21 > 0:38:24He was there to make sure that the sacks of corn that came off the boat
0:38:24 > 0:38:29and went out of the warehouses did indeed have the weight of corn
0:38:29 > 0:38:32or, in fact the corn, in the sacks that they should have done.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36"Showeth that your petitioner has a wife and three children
0:38:36 > 0:38:40"entirely dependent on him for support.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43"That owing to losses in trade was reduced,
0:38:43 > 0:38:47"has reduced him to very slender means for support of himself
0:38:47 > 0:38:49"and his family."
0:38:49 > 0:38:51So we were struggling at this point.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53I think he was really struggling.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56He's applied for the post of corn meter because his previous jobs
0:38:56 > 0:38:57just haven't paid well enough.
0:38:57 > 0:39:02- So this is his application.- Yeah. - Did he get the job as corn meter?
0:39:02 > 0:39:04He did get the job is corn meter,
0:39:04 > 0:39:08and I guess that he's just thinking that the office of corn meter
0:39:08 > 0:39:11is just going to provide him with more regular work.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14Stability, as well, that he wouldn't have had with the self-employment.
0:39:14 > 0:39:15Exactly. Exactly.
0:39:15 > 0:39:19So he's...on the up?
0:39:19 > 0:39:21Well, I've got a document here that shows you,
0:39:21 > 0:39:24tells you a little bit more about how he was getting on
0:39:24 > 0:39:25a few years later.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Joseph Hilditch's will.
0:39:28 > 0:39:32Now, Joseph Hilditch was the brother of your four times
0:39:32 > 0:39:34great-grandfather.
0:39:34 > 0:39:36So that means that he was William Hilditch's uncle.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38In 1835.
0:39:38 > 0:39:39Mm-hm.
0:39:39 > 0:39:44"I give, and bequeath, unto to Mrs Elizabeth Hilditch,
0:39:44 > 0:39:49"the widow of my late brother, Richard Hilditch,
0:39:49 > 0:39:54"and my two nephews, Joseph Hilditch and William Henry Hilditch..."
0:39:54 > 0:39:56My three times great-grandfather.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58"..the sum of one shilling each."
0:40:00 > 0:40:05"Had they not behaved the most rude and unfeeling manner towards me,
0:40:05 > 0:40:08"they would have shared a larger portion of my property."
0:40:11 > 0:40:14- They've obviously displeased their uncle in some way.- Wow!
0:40:14 > 0:40:16"Most rude and unfeeling manner."
0:40:18 > 0:40:21The mind boggles as to what they did.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24Well, we all know that rude and unfeeling runs in the family,
0:40:24 > 0:40:25so maybe we've got it from them.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37Lisa has found out that her three times great-grandfather,
0:40:37 > 0:40:38William Hilditch,
0:40:38 > 0:40:41his brother and stepmother were only left a very small sum
0:40:41 > 0:40:44in the will of his uncle, Joseph Hilditch.
0:40:52 > 0:40:53To try and discover why,
0:40:53 > 0:40:57she's come to Gray's Inn in London's historic legal district.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02She's meeting with historian Professor Alistair Owens.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05So, William Hilditch...
0:41:05 > 0:41:11His uncle, Joseph Hilditch, dies and leaves him an inheritance,
0:41:11 > 0:41:13but only of one shilling.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15- What happened?- Well, that's right.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18I mean, the one shilling thing is quite interesting
0:41:18 > 0:41:22because it was a very deliberate act to disinherit William.
0:41:22 > 0:41:24It acknowledged that they hadn't been forgotten,
0:41:24 > 0:41:27it was a public statement that, "I am annoyed at this person."
0:41:27 > 0:41:29It almost seems worse, doesn't it?
0:41:29 > 0:41:31If he hadn't have been cut out of the will
0:41:31 > 0:41:34and all those three been given one shilling,
0:41:34 > 0:41:36how much would they have been given?
0:41:36 > 0:41:41So this tells you how much Joseph Hilditch was worth.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45It says, "Joseph Hilditch died
0:41:45 > 0:41:49"possessed of 5,000..."
0:41:49 > 0:41:51- Is that 5,000? - That's right, yeah. £5,000.
0:41:51 > 0:41:53So he was worth £5,000.
0:41:53 > 0:41:57- That's a lot of money, isn't it? - It was a lot of money in 1834.
0:41:57 > 0:41:58So...
0:41:58 > 0:42:01It's very difficult to convert historical values
0:42:01 > 0:42:04to contemporary values but, roughly speaking,
0:42:04 > 0:42:07maybe worth about £500,000...
0:42:07 > 0:42:09- Wow.- ..by today's standards.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12It would have been around the sort of top 10% of wealth holders
0:42:12 > 0:42:16at that moment. So this guy is pretty comfortable.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19So he must have really peed him off.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22- Quite.- What's the gossip behind the family feud?
0:42:22 > 0:42:26So this document here tells us about a court case that took place
0:42:26 > 0:42:29very soon after Joseph had died,
0:42:29 > 0:42:31a court case that was about determining
0:42:31 > 0:42:32the validity of his will.
0:42:32 > 0:42:35So someone's questioning the will.
0:42:35 > 0:42:39Exactly, and the people questioning are Elizabeth, Elizabeth Hilditch,
0:42:39 > 0:42:44- so the stepmum of William, and also Joseph, his brother.- OK.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47And the testimony that we get,
0:42:47 > 0:42:51and in this case it is testimony from someone called Edward Bridger,
0:42:51 > 0:42:54and he was the person who wrote Joseph's will.
0:42:54 > 0:42:58- So he knows everything about that case.- That's right.
0:42:58 > 0:43:03"He mentioned to me that he had been very ill-used by his relations
0:43:03 > 0:43:08"and particularly mentioned this Mrs Hilditch, and his two nephews,
0:43:08 > 0:43:09"Joseph and William.
0:43:09 > 0:43:14"He said that they had decoyed him out of his lodging in Duke Street,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18"Smithfield, and taken him to Lambeth poor house,
0:43:18 > 0:43:22"whence he had been sent to the mad house in Brixton
0:43:22 > 0:43:25"and there they had kept him six weeks.
0:43:26 > 0:43:31"He had been put into the same room with two or three mad people
0:43:31 > 0:43:34"and whose language was shocking and dreadful and he was,
0:43:34 > 0:43:39"as well as the said two persons, fastened down to a bed."
0:43:39 > 0:43:42What's he sent there for?
0:43:42 > 0:43:44Like, what did he do to get to that?
0:43:44 > 0:43:48It's something that's very difficult to know, to be honest.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52So he may well have been showing signs of mental ill health,
0:43:52 > 0:43:54mental illness of some kind, and maybe his relatives,
0:43:54 > 0:43:57including William, thought that the best thing
0:43:57 > 0:44:00was to have him admitted to this mad house.
0:44:00 > 0:44:02- In that way they get the money. - Exactly.
0:44:02 > 0:44:07"He made a will very shortly before he was taken thus away, in favour
0:44:07 > 0:44:11"of Mrs Hilditch and his said nephews whom, at the time,
0:44:11 > 0:44:16"he really had intended to leave all his property to,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18"and that they should have had it,
0:44:18 > 0:44:21"have not used him in a cruel manner."
0:44:21 > 0:44:27So he was going to leave the money to them before this happened.
0:44:27 > 0:44:28That's right.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31"I asked him how he got out of the mad house and he said
0:44:31 > 0:44:35"that people at last found that there was nothing the matter with him."
0:44:35 > 0:44:38Did they win? Were they successful in contesting the will?
0:44:38 > 0:44:40No, they weren't, actually.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43So all the evidence that was given at the court case
0:44:43 > 0:44:46suggested that Joseph was of sound mind...
0:44:46 > 0:44:47- Right.- ..when he made the will.
0:44:47 > 0:44:49And, therefore, they inherited nothing.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Having missed out on a share of his Uncle Joseph's fortune,
0:44:56 > 0:45:00Lisa's three times great-grandfather William Hilditch continued to work
0:45:00 > 0:45:06on the docks until his death in 1875, aged 78.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09So there's something else really interesting, actually, about this court case,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11in terms of some of the detail it tells us about the family
0:45:11 > 0:45:14and about Joseph Hilditch.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17"He said his...
0:45:19 > 0:45:23- Native.- "..native place was Wales."
0:45:23 > 0:45:25- Wales?- Was Wales, exactly.
0:45:26 > 0:45:30"And he intended to return and end his days there."
0:45:30 > 0:45:31He wanted to go back to Wales to die.
0:45:31 > 0:45:33- That was his wish. - That was one of his wishes,
0:45:33 > 0:45:35but he wanted to return to his place of birth.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39- So he came from Wales? - Yeah. So the family...
0:45:41 > 0:45:43So my family come from Wales?
0:45:43 > 0:45:44That's right, yeah.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48That is so weird.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51Was not expecting that.
0:45:52 > 0:45:57So this is a register from the parish of Denbigh in North Wales.
0:45:57 > 0:45:59- OK.- So this is actually, you can see at the top there...
0:45:59 > 0:46:01Oh, yeah.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05"Christenings of the year 1759."
0:46:05 > 0:46:07- So we're kind of 80 years...- Wow.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09..prior.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13"Richard, son of Joseph Hilditch."
0:46:13 > 0:46:17Richard, there, that's your four times great-grandfather.
0:46:17 > 0:46:19- Richard.- Yeah.
0:46:19 > 0:46:21And then his father there, in other words,
0:46:21 > 0:46:26your five times great-grandfather, is another Joseph, Joseph Hilditch.
0:46:26 > 0:46:27- Farmer.- Yeah.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33That is hysterical.
0:46:34 > 0:46:35That was what I was saying to my mum!
0:46:35 > 0:46:38I was like, "Oh, my God, can you imagine if we're farmers?!"
0:46:39 > 0:46:42- You are. So that is your... - Oh, that is so funny.
0:46:43 > 0:46:47That's your great-great-great-great grandfather.
0:46:47 > 0:46:49He was a farmer in North Wales.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53We come from the country, is what you're telling me, Alistair.
0:46:53 > 0:46:54You're not East Enders at all.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56Ah...!
0:46:56 > 0:46:58That's brilliant.
0:46:59 > 0:47:01That is so funny.
0:47:01 > 0:47:02Can't wait to tell my mum.
0:47:04 > 0:47:05She's going to go crazy!
0:47:07 > 0:47:09But I hate the country!
0:47:12 > 0:47:15And I'm not fit for purpose, am I?
0:47:16 > 0:47:18Blocking the middle of a field!
0:47:22 > 0:47:24OK. Just breathe...
0:47:26 > 0:47:29It's fine. Just won't be able to wear my heels.
0:47:30 > 0:47:31Get some new tyres.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38That's a complete bolt out of the blue.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42I thought we were all from London because we've all sort of got that
0:47:42 > 0:47:44London thing, you know?
0:47:44 > 0:47:46But turns out we've got the farmer thing.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52Although four generations of her ancestors were born in London,
0:47:52 > 0:47:57Lisa's four times great-grandfather Richard Hilditch was born in Wales
0:47:57 > 0:48:00and his father, Joseph, was a farmer.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10To trace her rural ancestry, she's come to Denbighshire in North Wales.
0:48:20 > 0:48:24Here we are in deepest countryside
0:48:24 > 0:48:28and, yeah, I'm shocked that I'm not a city girl,
0:48:28 > 0:48:31and I'm not used to all this greenery
0:48:31 > 0:48:36and these country winding lanes and all the animals,
0:48:36 > 0:48:39hence why I wore my horse top, in honour of my Welsh routes.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43I can appreciate the beauty of it.
0:48:43 > 0:48:45I mean, it's gorgeous.
0:48:45 > 0:48:48But again, do I want to live here?
0:48:51 > 0:48:53I can't see any sheep yet. Oh, there they are!
0:48:55 > 0:48:57Don't even know where we are.
0:49:06 > 0:49:08Lisa's come to St Marcella's Church in Denbigh
0:49:08 > 0:49:11to meet Welsh historian Nia Powell.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15- Hello.- Hello.- You must be Nia.
0:49:15 > 0:49:16Welcome to Wales, Lisa.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19- Thanks. - And welcome to St Marcella's.
0:49:19 > 0:49:24Nia's researched the Hilditches and prepared a family tree for Lisa.
0:49:24 > 0:49:27Down at the bottom we've got me
0:49:27 > 0:49:32and we've got my mum and we've got all people of the East End
0:49:32 > 0:49:34jump to Wales and farming.
0:49:36 > 0:49:38I know that Richard Hilditch,
0:49:38 > 0:49:41because I've seen his parish records,
0:49:41 > 0:49:43he was christened in Denbigh.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46In this church, actually.
0:49:46 > 0:49:51- In this church?- Yeah.- And his father, Joseph Hilditch,
0:49:51 > 0:49:57my five times great-grandad was a farmer.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59But it says here, it doesn't say farmer,
0:49:59 > 0:50:03it says that he was yeoman of Denbigh.
0:50:03 > 0:50:09Right, well, yeoman is a label, if you like, or a status.
0:50:09 > 0:50:15- OK.- It's just below the gentry and it generally meant
0:50:15 > 0:50:17quite prosperous farmers.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20And, indeed, prosperous he was.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23So they were well-off, they were not working-class.
0:50:23 > 0:50:28Status of yeoman implies that he actually did work,
0:50:28 > 0:50:29he did some of the work.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34So he didn't sit in his house and let his workers do...
0:50:34 > 0:50:36He was an actual worker, but he wasn't gentry.
0:50:36 > 0:50:41That's the difference between being gentry and being a yeoman.
0:50:41 > 0:50:43I see. And this is 1735.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46He was born in 1735.
0:50:46 > 0:50:51What is even more interesting, perhaps for you,
0:50:51 > 0:50:57is that as you move back, the status of the family seems to rise.
0:50:58 > 0:51:01That implies, of course, that there's some kind of a fall
0:51:01 > 0:51:03as you come the other way.
0:51:03 > 0:51:05That wouldn't surprise me!
0:51:05 > 0:51:09But if you look at Joseph's father, William Hilditch,
0:51:09 > 0:51:13he was actually of Kilford Farm, which is opposite the church...
0:51:13 > 0:51:16- Oh.- And the father of William Hilditch,
0:51:16 > 0:51:20- we are going back now to... - 1701.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22..another William Hilditch.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26William Hilditch of Whitchurch.
0:51:26 > 0:51:31- Yes.- So that's my seventh great-grandfather.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33That's your seventh great-grandfather.
0:51:33 > 0:51:35OK. Of Whitchurch.
0:51:35 > 0:51:39Right, well, Whitchurch isn't the name of a town.
0:51:39 > 0:51:43It's here. This is the white church of Denbigh.
0:51:43 > 0:51:46- Amazing!- And within this church,
0:51:46 > 0:51:50there is evidence of William Hilditch's role within this area.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52So he was actually here?
0:51:52 > 0:51:58He was, and he was churchwarden, and he commissioned a board,
0:51:58 > 0:52:02but at the bottom is his name, if you want, if you think about it...
0:52:02 > 0:52:05- And so where...?- Well, just look behind you, there it is.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10- Can you see his name?- Oh, my God, I was right in front of it!
0:52:10 > 0:52:12In bold letters, yes.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14William Hilditch.
0:52:14 > 0:52:15Yes, churchwarden.
0:52:17 > 0:52:22Now, we're quite lucky to have a bond relating to the marriage
0:52:22 > 0:52:28of this William Hilditch with a woman called Jane Lloyd.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30And perhaps you would like to read it?
0:52:34 > 0:52:35Yeah, you've got no chance.
0:52:37 > 0:52:39It's in Latin, the first part of the bond.
0:52:39 > 0:52:41Well, that would explain it, then!
0:52:41 > 0:52:46So we've got the marriage bond of William Hilditch, 1701.
0:52:46 > 0:52:51"All should know by these present that we, William Hilditch,
0:52:51 > 0:52:57of the parish of Denbigh, in the county of Denbigh, gentleman..."
0:52:57 > 0:53:01So that really places him amongst the toffs.
0:53:01 > 0:53:03My seven times great-grandad is now a gentleman.
0:53:03 > 0:53:10Yes. So we are in a different social stratum altogether, really.
0:53:10 > 0:53:15We're amongst the people who had sufficient money to employ servants
0:53:15 > 0:53:17to do all the work for them...
0:53:17 > 0:53:19So we now are no working.
0:53:19 > 0:53:20Exactly.
0:53:20 > 0:53:24- We are in the house watching the workers do the jobs for you.- Yeah.
0:53:24 > 0:53:30Oh. Jane Lloyd, who he married, it says, under her name, "of the Lodge".
0:53:30 > 0:53:32So "of the Lodge," meaning...
0:53:33 > 0:53:38Well, the Lodge was another property in this area.
0:53:38 > 0:53:41It's closer to the town of Denbigh, really,
0:53:41 > 0:53:44and within view of the Castle of Denbigh.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47In relationship to where we are now, where is that?
0:53:47 > 0:53:49- Well...- And is it still there?
0:53:49 > 0:53:52Well, it is actually still there.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04Is that one house?
0:54:04 > 0:54:09It is indeed. That's the home of Jane, Jane Lloyd,
0:54:09 > 0:54:11wife of William Hilditch.
0:54:11 > 0:54:12They married, of course,
0:54:12 > 0:54:15in 1701, and this is where she was brought up.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33It's been altered since, but it's a grand house.
0:54:33 > 0:54:38- Yes.- It's far larger than the normal farmhouse that you'd expect,
0:54:38 > 0:54:42and this reflects really the prosperity of the family.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46She was Lloyd, but her mother was this character
0:54:46 > 0:54:54called Margaret Vaughan, and it was from her father, Thomas Vaughan,
0:54:54 > 0:54:56that the holding came down in the family.
0:54:56 > 0:55:04So Thomas Vaughan, gentleman of the Lodge, who died in 1691,
0:55:04 > 0:55:08- was my...- He was your nine times great-grandfather.
0:55:10 > 0:55:15- Wow.- So you can think of yourself, you know, as being a descendant...
0:55:15 > 0:55:16As being a gentry...
0:55:16 > 0:55:19- Oh, yes.- ..of the country.- Yes, yes.
0:55:19 > 0:55:21Of which I'm not used to.
0:55:26 > 0:55:27They're huge.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32You don't really realise until you're up close, do you?
0:55:34 > 0:55:39Wow. I've probably been this close to cows maybe
0:55:39 > 0:55:44three times in my life, and I'm knocking on 40.
0:55:44 > 0:55:45So...
0:55:47 > 0:55:50I appreciate them, but, you know...
0:56:02 > 0:56:06This, no matter how random,
0:56:06 > 0:56:10has sort of linked me back to the past.
0:56:12 > 0:56:15I think it's going to sink in a little bit later, to be honest,
0:56:15 > 0:56:18because I'm still in the "Oh, my God, oh, my..."
0:56:19 > 0:56:22I want to carry on doing that, almost.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25And it's awoken the thing, the instinct,
0:56:25 > 0:56:27that made me and my mum start the family tree.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29It has awoken that in me again.
0:56:31 > 0:56:36I'll accept my rural Welsh roots, but do I like it?
0:56:38 > 0:56:42I'm not going to be getting wellies or a rain mac.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47I'm playing the city girl gone to the country,
0:56:47 > 0:56:50but I do really feel connected with the city.
0:56:50 > 0:56:54This is lovely to visit, but it's not my home.
0:56:56 > 0:56:57Back to London.
0:56:59 > 0:57:02Back to the pollution and the rudeness
0:57:02 > 0:57:05and, quite frankly, the anonymity.
0:57:05 > 0:57:07Because, if I lived round here, everyone would know my business,
0:57:07 > 0:57:10and I would be a village idiot!