0:00:07 > 0:00:12One in three children in Wales is now living in poverty.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16That's 200,000 young people.
0:00:16 > 0:00:20You haven't got no electric, you haven't got no food in the cupboards.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22And you have to, like, choose sometimes
0:00:22 > 0:00:25if you're going to have gas, electric or food.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28The problems associated with poverty
0:00:28 > 0:00:31are not confined to one street,
0:00:31 > 0:00:33one area or one social group.
0:00:35 > 0:00:37I want the best for my kids.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40I feel a failure, I don't feel like a good mother.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43It touches the lives of thousands of people.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47But not always in ways that we readily understand.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Some people don't know they're really living in poverty,
0:00:52 > 0:00:54cos they don't really know about it.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58There is a commitment by governments in Westminster and in Wales
0:00:58 > 0:01:02to eradicate child poverty by the year 2020,
0:01:02 > 0:01:06but no-one really believes that target is going to be achieved.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10- I was saying that I can't do this, I need help.- Yeah.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13- And then people said, "Well, tough."- Yeah.
0:01:13 > 0:01:14"We haven't got the resources.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17"We're going to make you beg, and then we're still going to say no."
0:01:17 > 0:01:21This is the Children's Commissioner for Wales,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23and he's going to try and find out
0:01:23 > 0:01:25what really lies behind the statistics
0:01:25 > 0:01:27by spending a week on the road with us.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32Aaaaah!
0:01:32 > 0:01:34- They are in now.- They're in.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38And what he finds may surprise us and challenge our perception
0:01:38 > 0:01:42of what we think poverty is in today's Wales.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44- No, get lost! - Can you open the door?
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Those who aspire to lead us are now being challenged
0:01:48 > 0:01:54to be more honest about their promises to take children out of poverty.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56When people talk about children living in poverty,
0:01:56 > 0:02:00I find myself, as the Children's Commissioner, asking myself
0:02:00 > 0:02:04whether politicians are brave enough to confront the totality of the problem.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22For me, this is a journey of discovery,
0:02:22 > 0:02:26but I suspect that what we'll find is something deeply uncomfortable
0:02:26 > 0:02:28about this little country of ours.
0:02:28 > 0:02:33I believe that there is now in Wales a cause for deep shame.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36The shame and the stigma attached to poverty.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40And, by extension, the way that that poverty inflicts itself
0:02:40 > 0:02:44and deprives the most vulnerable in our society -
0:02:44 > 0:02:47our children and young people.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53Wales' First Minister, Carwyn Jones, has said...
0:03:04 > 0:03:08An aspiration that has yet to be realised.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13Child poverty now affects one in three children in Wales.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16That's 200,000 young people.
0:03:16 > 0:03:2090,000 are living in severe poverty.
0:03:20 > 0:03:26Wales has the worst record for child poverty in the United Kingdom.
0:03:27 > 0:03:32The promised journey out of poverty has gone into reverse.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36Well, I'm on my way to Swansea,
0:03:36 > 0:03:39to link up with a man who will lead us on this journey,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42and a man who believes that we should be doing a great deal more
0:03:42 > 0:03:46to raise awareness of the effects of poverty
0:03:46 > 0:03:49on a whole new generation.
0:03:49 > 0:03:55That man in Keith Towler, the Children's Commissioner for Wales,
0:03:55 > 0:03:58'who agreed to spend a week on the road with us.'
0:03:58 > 0:04:02- It's a nice day.- Yeah. We got there in the end.- Yes. That's good.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05- I'll leave it to you now, then.- OK.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07'This journey is Keith Towler's attempt
0:04:07 > 0:04:11'to highlight the complexities and subtleties of a problem'
0:04:11 > 0:04:16that at times seems almost invisible and difficult to quantify,
0:04:16 > 0:04:20as more and more families slide silently
0:04:20 > 0:04:24into what is currently defined as poverty.
0:04:24 > 0:04:25In researching this programme,
0:04:25 > 0:04:29the number of people who have said to me, "But what is poverty"?
0:04:29 > 0:04:30People often refer to...
0:04:30 > 0:04:33The researchers often, statistically, would often talk about
0:04:33 > 0:04:37people being below 60% of the average income levels of the country,
0:04:37 > 0:04:39or the median income levels.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45A child is classed as being in poverty
0:04:45 > 0:04:47if the family income falls
0:04:47 > 0:04:48below 60% of the median
0:04:48 > 0:04:50or middle income level,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52which is set
0:04:52 > 0:04:54at about £25,000 a year.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58Severe poverty means a couple with one child
0:04:58 > 0:05:00is living on less
0:05:00 > 0:05:03than £12,000 a year.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09You know, one of the things I'm hoping from this week, from this programme,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12is that we can illustrate that, actually,
0:05:12 > 0:05:18children, young people and families are living in really difficult circumstances in Wales,
0:05:18 > 0:05:23making pretty critical choices about what they eat, when they eat,
0:05:23 > 0:05:26how they keep their children warm, how they care for their children.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29And the decisions and the priorities that people are making
0:05:29 > 0:05:33illustrate, I think, the kind of challenges that people face.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37We are talking about our society, our community.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39And if you believe the one-in-three statistic,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42that has to mean that all of us,
0:05:42 > 0:05:47in our daily lives, will know families who, statistically,
0:05:47 > 0:05:50are children and families living in poverty.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52- And I think we need to address that head-on.- Yeah.
0:05:56 > 0:06:01Nowhere is the effect of poverty and deprivation more evident in terms of numbers
0:06:01 > 0:06:05than on the great urban estates of Wales.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08And some of them continually figure prominently
0:06:08 > 0:06:12in the league tables measuring multiple deprivation.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17The Blaen y Maes estate in Swansea,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20just a few miles from the Commissioner's office,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22is just such an estate.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26You can see they're kind of different
0:06:26 > 0:06:28almost immediately in your surroundings.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30It's like an island, it's like its own...
0:06:30 > 0:06:33And by definition, that could be isolated.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34And it's isolated, absolutely.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39'Here, a charity called Spark is working on the front line'
0:06:39 > 0:06:45trying to help families and individuals realise a sense of self-worth
0:06:45 > 0:06:48in the face of multiple problems associated with poverty.
0:06:50 > 0:06:51So where are we going now?
0:06:51 > 0:06:56- We are off down to one of our families, based over, towards Cutler.- Yeah.
0:06:56 > 0:07:02'Spark's Chief Executive Owen Pillai is taking us to see one family
0:07:02 > 0:07:03'where the father is working,
0:07:03 > 0:07:08'but which finds itself struggling to bring up two young children,
0:07:08 > 0:07:11'one of them suffering from autism and learning difficulties.'
0:07:11 > 0:07:13Good morning.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15Hi, there. How's it going?
0:07:15 > 0:07:17How are you?
0:07:17 > 0:07:21'John and Jody Higgs' finances are at a low ebb.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23'In fact, they are broke.'
0:07:23 > 0:07:25- Hiya.- Everyone is looking at us now.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29'Their annual income is just over £14,000 a year,
0:07:29 > 0:07:33'and their priority here is to financially cater
0:07:33 > 0:07:36'for the dietary needs of their autistic son, Dylan.'
0:07:36 > 0:07:38- He can't have milk.- Yeah.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40He's got to get special milk for him,
0:07:40 > 0:07:44and it's lucky that we actually get it on script, to be honest,
0:07:44 > 0:07:48- cos otherwise it would cost us £75 a tin like that.- Wow!
0:07:48 > 0:07:50It's like the special sausages we can get for him.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53When they were first out, they were a pound.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56Within a year, they've gone up, they've doubled in price.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59- So how do you budget for this? - We just work round it then.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01And then, that takes a big chunk of
0:08:01 > 0:08:04- what we can have out for the month then.- Yeah.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08- You know, be it trips and such things, you know.- Yeah.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Is there a time... Sorry, is there a time
0:08:11 > 0:08:14that comes during that month where you've literally run out of money?
0:08:14 > 0:08:15- Now.- You've run out now?
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Now, only due to the fact of we actually get free dental care,
0:08:19 > 0:08:23but there's no-one taking on at Swansea so we've got to pay.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26And we have just had to pay now £200 just to have...
0:08:26 > 0:08:28His teeth looked at.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30When is payday?
0:08:30 > 0:08:32The 7th of next month.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33HE CHUCKLES
0:08:33 > 0:08:35- OK.- So...
0:08:35 > 0:08:38- So you've got two or three weeks... - To go.- ..to go.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42So it's like I'm taking food out of my child's mouth.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44- That's how it feels. - That's how it feels, yeah.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49We've just basically got to grin and bear it, really, and...
0:08:49 > 0:08:52The kids have... You know, we are all fed and clothed
0:08:52 > 0:08:56and they're happy, and that's the main thing at the end of the day.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59So, and that's all we worry about, really.
0:08:59 > 0:09:05And, you know, and they are, you know, happy, so... Yeah.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08The Higgs family have not only run out of money,
0:09:08 > 0:09:13they've also run out of ideas on how to make ends meet.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16Thanks a lot. Take care. All the best.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Their combined income of wages and limited child care benefits
0:09:20 > 0:09:22are not adequate to cover their bills
0:09:22 > 0:09:27and they don't expect to get out of the poverty trap any time soon.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32The mother has just described herself as being on the front line.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35I don't know how that family will manage looking into the future.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37They are not looking at the future, of course,
0:09:37 > 0:09:41they're looking at what's happening today and what will happen tomorrow.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43And, you know, that's a family who are in work, you know.
0:09:43 > 0:09:47Dad's working, he's working really hard. He's doing shift work.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50There are probably not enough hours in the day
0:09:50 > 0:09:53to do the kind of work that he needs to do to get the money that he needs.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56So there's no long-term plan going on within that family
0:09:56 > 0:09:58and other families living around here.
0:09:58 > 0:09:59They'll be thinking about today.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06Meanwhile, the politicians are busy blaming each other.
0:10:06 > 0:10:12According to the Welsh Government, the UK Government's planned welfare reform measures
0:10:12 > 0:10:18threaten to push another 6,000 children in Wales into poverty.
0:10:20 > 0:10:25According to the latest Welsh Index Of Multiple Deprivation -
0:10:25 > 0:10:28that's the official measure of poverty in Wales,
0:10:28 > 0:10:31which divides the country into almost 2,000 areas -
0:10:31 > 0:10:36the Blaen y Maes estate is the 19th poorest area in Wales.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45The poverty index divides Wales into what are prosaically termed,
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Blaen y Maes is one of these 2,000 deprived areas
0:10:54 > 0:10:57and accompanying it are statistics which are depressingly reflective
0:10:57 > 0:11:01of the estate's unenviable status.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05Income levels - 16th poorest in Wales.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35A lifetime of low income may mean poverty in old age
0:11:35 > 0:11:37as well as poverty in childhood.
0:11:37 > 0:11:43And accompanying the poverty figures are equally depressing statistics
0:11:43 > 0:11:48showing that Swansea has the highest percentage of homeless people in Wales
0:11:48 > 0:11:50who have approached their council for help.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00Sitting high above the city,
0:12:00 > 0:12:03and only a short distance from Blaen y Maes,
0:12:03 > 0:12:08is another estate with multiple deprivation problems - Townhill.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11MUSIC: "Have A Nice Day" by Stereophonics
0:12:11 > 0:12:13From a distance,
0:12:13 > 0:12:18it looks like the kind of place you'd go to for a house with a view.
0:12:18 > 0:12:19And it has that, all right.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25But the reality on the ground is very different.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33Townhill looks down of the trappings of out-of-reach wealth.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36But what these people lack materially,
0:12:36 > 0:12:40they more than make up for in terms of community.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44And at the local primary school,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46something very interesting is happening.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49I'm euphoric because it's my baby cousin's birthday soon.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53I'm happy because my... I've still got my puppy and...
0:12:53 > 0:12:56Every day, pupils who come here engage
0:12:56 > 0:12:59in what's called restorative practice.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03Cos sometimes, if you have a bad day it affects your work and everything, doesn't it?
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Essentially, it's an opportunity for each child
0:13:06 > 0:13:10to share with fellow pupils their thoughts and feelings about...
0:13:10 > 0:13:13Well, just about everything.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16I am confused cos I had a dream
0:13:16 > 0:13:20that I bought a new fish and it was green.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22It's a chance to park their troubles
0:13:22 > 0:13:26before lessons and the process of education begins.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29Fantastic. Well done, boys and girls. Well done.
0:13:31 > 0:13:32Hello. Can I come in?
0:13:32 > 0:13:33ALL: Yeah.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35With Keith Towler observing,
0:13:35 > 0:13:40we asked this class of ten-year-olds to discuss the subject of poverty.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Thank you for letting me come in to your circle group.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45If somebody was to say to you,
0:13:45 > 0:13:49"What do you think poverty is or living in poverty?"
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Would you have thoughts about what that meant?
0:13:53 > 0:13:55I think some people don't know they're really living in poverty
0:13:55 > 0:13:57cos they don't really know about it.
0:13:57 > 0:14:01- They try not to show it, do you think that?- Yes.- And it's very edgy. You haven't got no electric,
0:14:01 > 0:14:03- you haven't got no food in the cupboards.- Yeah.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08- And you have to, like, choose sometimes if you're going to have gas, electric or food.- Yeah.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11And if you didn't have electric, you couldn't have food in the fridge,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14- and if you had no gas, you couldn't have water, heat and that.- Yeah.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18Has that ever happened to you? No? That's good.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21- Not with gas, we can afford it. - Yeah.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23Sometimes people in the shop say,
0:14:23 > 0:14:26"Oh, I'll pay you back next week," to buy stuff.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28What do you think?
0:14:28 > 0:14:30I think poverty is when you borrow money
0:14:30 > 0:14:32but you don't have the money to give it back.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Right.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36So you borrow money but, when it comes to paying it back,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39and you haven't got the money in your pocket,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42that's when you find yourself in a difficult situation.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45What happens then? How do people feel then, do you think?
0:14:45 > 0:14:48You'd feel quite scared, cos you don't know what's going to happen to you.
0:14:48 > 0:14:53You might not have the money to give it back, and you might not have the money for a couple of months.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55And you might, like, they might take your house off you or something.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59- And your kids might end up without anything.- Yeah.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Well, the thing about children
0:15:01 > 0:15:04is that they don't know much about their parents.
0:15:04 > 0:15:09They don't know that they are paying house bills,
0:15:09 > 0:15:11they are paying for gas.
0:15:11 > 0:15:17They are doing everything for their children, but they don't know it.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19Actually, one of the things that worries me
0:15:19 > 0:15:22is that children get quite stressed by their situations
0:15:22 > 0:15:26cos they can see when their mum or their dad is unhappy about something.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30You know, you can see it, can't you, when that happens?
0:15:30 > 0:15:31And that's difficult.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36I think some people live in poverty because it's hard to be a parent,
0:15:36 > 0:15:38to pay all the bills, to get all the money.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42- You have to work all the time, it's really hard to do that.- Yeah.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45And so, what you do then is make sure that you behave all the time,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48and that you're lovely children and... Yeah?
0:15:48 > 0:15:52- And that you never wind your parents up because they're stressed out as it is, is that right?- Yeah.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54Yeah, absolutely. Perfect.
0:15:54 > 0:15:59I think child poverty starts off when you can't pay the bills and stuff,
0:15:59 > 0:16:04cos then it leads to, like, you're living on the streets and stuff.
0:16:06 > 0:16:13Out of the mouths of babes comes the real sense of what it feels like to be poor here.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Statistics and bureaucratic jargon do not adequately reflect
0:16:20 > 0:16:24the emotional consequences for children.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28'It's only when the statistics manifest themselves in human terms
0:16:28 > 0:16:35'that you get a real sense of the deprivation and loss which comes with poverty.'
0:16:38 > 0:16:39Hello.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Good?
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Was Mrs Phillips...?
0:16:43 > 0:16:48Melanie, an out-of-work single parent living on the Blaen y Maes estate,
0:16:48 > 0:16:51depends on benefits and a housing association home
0:16:51 > 0:16:55to provide food and shelter for herself and her ten-year-old son.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00In all the drawers, it's OK.
0:17:00 > 0:17:05She suffers from depression and has been out of a job for 14 years,
0:17:05 > 0:17:07but wants to return to work.
0:17:07 > 0:17:12However, child care costs are too high to make this a realistic proposition.
0:17:12 > 0:17:20And instead, the weekly routine revolves around benefits and debts.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23What sort of money are we talking about? What kind of benefits...?
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Right. I'm entitled to DLA because of mental health problems.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28- That's disability living allowance, yeah?- Yes.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32- On a Monday, I get my income support as well.- OK.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35So it works out, I guess, £300 on a Monday.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38- Now, that seems quite a lot to some people.- Yes.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42- I've actually gone into debt.- OK. - So, I mean, er...
0:17:42 > 0:17:46Today, now, for example, I've just paid off Bright House.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49- Now, that was £50 I paid off this morning.- OK.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52I've also got another bill that I've missed a few weeks.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56- So I've paid another £50 out.- Right. - Now, I haven't got my food yet.
0:17:56 > 0:18:01- I've also got gas and electric.- Yes. - Which came to £50.- OK.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06- £30 gas, £20 electric.- Yeah.- That's supposed to last a fortnight, it doesn't.- Yeah.
0:18:06 > 0:18:14I then borrowed £20 off somebody. I know it sound awful, but this is what's happening.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17You know, it's quite typical. I borrowed £20 off somebody else.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21- I had to give that back.- Yeah. - And then I'm left basically,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24all I've got left purse at the moment now is £40.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26- I have to get the shopping out of that.- Right.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30Brandon, he's... I mean, for Christmas he wanted a PlayStation.
0:18:30 > 0:18:35- Now, I did get him one, but I'm also in debt because of it.- Yeah.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41- I want my son to grow up to be a decent human being.- Yeah.- You know?
0:18:41 > 0:18:46- To be able to take his children, you know, abroad or whatever.- Yeah.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49- And see a little bit of life. I want the best for my kids.- Absolutely.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53- And I'm not... And I feel a failure because of that.- You feel a failure?
0:18:53 > 0:18:57I feel a failure. I don't feel like a good mother.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02There's a lot of jargon around with child poverty, you know.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07I mean, I think Carwyn Jones is absolutely right to maintain the focus of his government on...
0:19:07 > 0:19:12You know, everything he talks about in terms of economic regeneration, getting investment into Wales,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15it's all focused on building an economy for Wales.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18Fantastic. And a lot of that is...
0:19:18 > 0:19:21A lot of that is about visioning for the future, you have to keep that kind of focus.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25But I would prefer some honesty and target about where we think we'll be in five years,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28where we think we'll realistically be in ten years.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33The 2020 target to eradicate child poverty really isn't going to hit the mark.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36In fact, it would probably cheese off more people than it would please.
0:19:41 > 0:19:46Urban poverty and deprivation is often stark invisible.
0:19:46 > 0:19:51Rural poverty is more difficult to see, but it, too, is real enough.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Some of our politicians think about volume, population mass.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02But that overlooks the fact that people living in rural areas,
0:20:02 > 0:20:04you know, families in rural areas,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07face the same kind of difficulties, the same kind of challenges
0:20:07 > 0:20:11and the same kind of obstacles to leading a good quality of life.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15And sometimes that's difficult to understand when, as you say,
0:20:15 > 0:20:19you know, look around, it's not a particularly nice day today.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22But look around us and you see beautiful countryside,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25mountains, hills, we're not very far away from the sea.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29You would think quality of life here would be very high.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38Keith Towler is particularly anxious that the children of families living in rural homes
0:20:38 > 0:20:42and experiencing financial problems are not forgotten.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47- Cardigan.- Here we are.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50'Rural poverty is no longer confined to the problems
0:20:50 > 0:20:53'associated with transport and the high cost of fuel.
0:20:53 > 0:20:58'Increasingly, families are becoming more and more concerned
0:20:58 > 0:21:02'about something much more basic - the cost of food.'
0:21:02 > 0:21:07Yes, to get to Jigsaw. They do quite a lot of work on...
0:21:07 > 0:21:11trying to alleviate child poverty in rural areas around here, don't they?
0:21:11 > 0:21:14They do, yeah, they do some really, really good stuff.
0:21:14 > 0:21:19In Cardigan, a lottery-funded charity called Jigsaw,
0:21:19 > 0:21:24which acts as a support organisation for children and parents in rural areas,
0:21:24 > 0:21:28now runs a regular healthy eating club,
0:21:28 > 0:21:34whose lunchtime sessions focus on financial savings as well as the waistline.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Yes, you have to have some soup.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40Increasingly, Jigsaw is serving up advice as well as free food
0:21:40 > 0:21:44to families whose finances are being squeezed.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50We also run a breakfast here,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53- where we encourage families to come in and have a healthy breakfast.- Yeah.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55And that, the meaning behind that,
0:21:55 > 0:21:57they have them in schools for children,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00we wanted one for the parents, because, at the end of the day,
0:22:00 > 0:22:02- they have to keep that family going.- Yeah.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04And if they haven't got a decent meal inside them...
0:22:04 > 0:22:07And that's what we do. We do a low-cost breakfast here.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10- In fact, sometimes is no-cost breakfast.- OK.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14As long as people are coming in and accessing the support.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17- And more and more, that's what's happening.- Yeah.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20Because people can't afford it.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27'The situation is made even more complex
0:22:27 > 0:22:31'if a family experiences a sudden change in financial circumstances,
0:22:31 > 0:22:36'which sees them slide down the financial scale
0:22:36 > 0:22:41'from affluence into what is officially defined as poverty.'
0:22:47 > 0:22:50- The Bridgers' bungalow. - The Bridgers' bungalow.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53The Bridgers, who live just a few miles north of Cardigan,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56in a relatively affluent part of the county,
0:22:56 > 0:23:00may not look like a family struggling financially.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02Hello, how are you?
0:23:02 > 0:23:05'But they are today's new poor in Wales,
0:23:05 > 0:23:13'with an income from benefits which they calculate to be at least 60% below the benchmark average.'
0:23:13 > 0:23:16- On my foot. - Did you have a good time at school?
0:23:16 > 0:23:21'Just a few months ago, the Bridgers and their children were enjoying the good life.
0:23:21 > 0:23:26'But then, their financial circumstances changed dramatically.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30'And they learnt just how quickly you can move form affluence to hard times.'
0:23:30 > 0:23:32So today they've had a glass of milk and some fruit.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36They had fruit and milk, yes. It's costing us £15 per child per week.
0:23:36 > 0:23:40'Chris Bridger had been working as a long-distance lorry driver in Australia
0:23:40 > 0:23:44'and earning up to £1,000 a week
0:23:44 > 0:23:48'when he dislocated his ankle stepping down from his lorry,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52'and that's when their world changed.'
0:23:52 > 0:23:55We'd go out for Sunday lunch and go out to the cinema.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57- Not just us.- Yeah.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00- And then, on top of that, the kids, they had their ballet, their swimming.- Yeah.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04But the petrol was worse than the actual fee of going, because it was £4 a week.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07- It wasn't too bad for them to go.- Yeah.- But the petrol was worse taking them.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Money dries up quick.
0:24:09 > 0:24:15The switch from wages to benefits forced the couple to rethink their finances.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19And fuel poverty, a phrase vague and unfamiliar to the Bridgers,
0:24:19 > 0:24:23suddenly made an unwelcome appearance in their lives.
0:24:23 > 0:24:28Fuel oil costs more than £600 a tankful,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31but the Bridgers were getting through it in less than three months.
0:24:31 > 0:24:36Everything to do with family finances has had to be rethought,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39including running the family car
0:24:39 > 0:24:41or not running it when it breaks down
0:24:41 > 0:24:46and they're suddenly faced with a repair bill of £1,000.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49A bill they can't afford to pay.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53I mean, if you need extra money like that, do you borrow money?
0:24:53 > 0:24:56We've had to borrow. We've had to borrow a few times lately, haven't we?
0:24:56 > 0:24:58- Yeah, and then pay back gradually when we can.- Yeah.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02- Who do you borrow from? - Family members.- Right, OK.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04It's the only thing we can do.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07- So you haven't found yourselves using credit cards or loans or...- No.- No.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10- You know, cos...- No, that would be worse, wouldn't it?
0:25:12 > 0:25:18The Bridgers, and Chris as the only one of ten in his family who has worked all his life,
0:25:18 > 0:25:24have learned a harsh lesson in the fall from financial grace to financial grind.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28- Do you want a sandwich? - Yes.- "Yes, please."
0:25:28 > 0:25:32'When we go shopping now, we try for it to be about £60,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35'60 something pounds a week.
0:25:35 > 0:25:39'Before, we just put in what we wanted, and it was well over £100.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41'Sometimes double - £120.'
0:25:41 > 0:25:45He's even been online looking at the, you know, cheaper places.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47Cos when you're buying nappies in a big quantity,
0:25:47 > 0:25:51it can make a difference, you're saving sometimes half the amount.
0:25:51 > 0:25:56The family hope that their flirtation with poverty is just that.
0:25:56 > 0:26:00But there is no certainty that Chris will find another job when he is fit again.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03Kiss your little brother? Kiss your little brother?
0:26:03 > 0:26:07If he doesn't, at a time when there's another baby on the way,
0:26:07 > 0:26:12the family will remain in the poverty trap it now finds itself in.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20What's happening,
0:26:20 > 0:26:24in terms of this recession that we are all pitched into,
0:26:24 > 0:26:26is affecting us all, isn't it?
0:26:26 > 0:26:29- Absolutely.- Everybody are having to take stock.- Everybody.
0:26:29 > 0:26:33I mean, I think the critical point in all of this is that
0:26:33 > 0:26:36this isn't happening to other people.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38This is happening to us.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41This is Wales, these are our communities, rural and urban,
0:26:41 > 0:26:43and it's affecting all of us,
0:26:43 > 0:26:46and it's making us all think through, you know.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49One of the moments again, she said to me,
0:26:49 > 0:26:52and it sounds a bit of a cliche, but she meant it when she said it.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55"Every penny counts, every single penny counts."
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Towards the end of our week-long journey,
0:26:59 > 0:27:02I began to realise how much in the dark I had been
0:27:02 > 0:27:05about the complexities of the journey we were making.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09For me, the tour of Wales continually threw up surprises
0:27:09 > 0:27:14and altered and challenged my preconception of what poverty means.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22There was just one last destination on our journey through Wales.
0:27:22 > 0:27:26To Anglesey, to visit a family which is among a group of families
0:27:26 > 0:27:31which is all too often forgotten and neglected.
0:27:31 > 0:27:36These are the families with disabled children who are living in poverty.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42There's absolutely no doubt in my mind
0:27:42 > 0:27:47and all the kind of research that's done on benefit levels and poverty
0:27:47 > 0:27:50with families with disabled children,
0:27:50 > 0:27:56that they're disproportionally in a much more difficult position than other families, you know.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01And there's all kinds of sort of statistical evidence
0:28:01 > 0:28:04that shows that nearly half of families with disabled children
0:28:04 > 0:28:08are incredibly pessimistic about the future.
0:28:08 > 0:28:09I do have a concern,
0:28:09 > 0:28:14particularly around the UK Government's welfare reform agenda,
0:28:14 > 0:28:17because any way that I look at what's currently proposed,
0:28:17 > 0:28:23all I can see is a situation where benefits are actually reduced
0:28:23 > 0:28:28rather than actually recognising that these families are in particular difficulty
0:28:28 > 0:28:32and actually need ongoing support, not reductions in benefits.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39A recent report found that families with disabled children living in poverty
0:28:39 > 0:28:44experience social, emotional and financial isolation,
0:28:44 > 0:28:49'which causes anxiety, depression and sometimes breakdowns.'
0:28:49 > 0:28:52The house is just here.
0:28:52 > 0:28:58'It is remarkable then that the person we are about to meet is coping with all this and more.'
0:28:58 > 0:29:02- Kerry, this is the Children's Commissioner.- Hi.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05- Hi, pleased to meet you. - And you.- Yes, good to see you.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07- Right, let's go in and... - Have you got a name?
0:29:07 > 0:29:11- Keith. Sorry. Yeah, I've got a name, yeah.- You go in and I'll join you now.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13'Kerry Page is the mother of two teenage children
0:29:13 > 0:29:19'suffering from a genetic condition called Fragile X syndrome.'
0:29:19 > 0:29:23It is the most common cause of inherited learning disability
0:29:23 > 0:29:29and Kerry Page has not one but two teenage boys with the condition.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31Hiya!
0:29:31 > 0:29:35'George, who is aged 15 and Sid, 13,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38'are day pupils at a special school in Anglesey.'
0:29:38 > 0:29:40George, no! Don't do that.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42- Hi, George, I'm Keith.- Aaah!
0:29:42 > 0:29:44Good to see you.
0:29:44 > 0:29:45HE LAUGHS
0:29:45 > 0:29:49- That was very polite, George, thank you.- Yeah, it was brilliant.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53You must be Sid, yeah? Hi, Sid. Are you all right? Good to see you.
0:29:53 > 0:29:58'Children with Fragile X often have difficulties with behaviour.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01'They are often anxious or shy with people they don't know.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04'And sometimes display unpredictable behaviour.'
0:30:06 > 0:30:09Hello. How are you? Nice to see you.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14And it's only when you meet them that you begin to appreciate
0:30:14 > 0:30:18what life is really like in this household minute by minute.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27- What was that?- She said have a nice weekend! Come on.- Thank you!
0:30:27 > 0:30:31- Git!- Come on.
0:30:33 > 0:30:37- They're in, then?!- They're in.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41I'm not though, look, he's shut me out.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43Here we go.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47I'll have to go round the back and round the conservatory then.
0:30:47 > 0:30:51- No! Get lost!- Can you open the door?
0:30:51 > 0:30:55It only took a few minutes for George to be persuaded
0:30:55 > 0:30:56to let his mother enter the room.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59And the whole incident was quickly forgotten.
0:30:59 > 0:31:05But it served as an example of what passes as routine in this household.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13If I go in his room he chucks things at me. "Get out!"
0:31:13 > 0:31:16So will that click, from chucking things at you,
0:31:16 > 0:31:18being angry and upset, will that just click back?
0:31:18 > 0:31:23Does it kind of go from high to low as quickly as that?
0:31:23 > 0:31:25- He does show remorse, George.- Right.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28And it's very sad actually because he'll punch himself
0:31:28 > 0:31:31in the head and says, "I'm idiot, I'm idiot", which...
0:31:32 > 0:31:35- Breaks your heart?- Yeah.
0:31:40 > 0:31:44With such overriding emotional concerns to deal with,
0:31:44 > 0:31:45it seems inappropriate and insensitive
0:31:45 > 0:31:48to talk about the family's financial problems.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50But they are a constant worry
0:31:50 > 0:31:54and further compound an already difficult situation.
0:31:54 > 0:31:58In one week alone I've had a seven-month-old bed smashed up,
0:31:58 > 0:32:00that's £300.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04That's his fourth in two-and-a-half years.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07The mattress is on the floor.
0:32:07 > 0:32:12I hate him sleeping on the floor but I don't really know what else to do.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Each bed I buy him he breaks and I think each time I've cracked it.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19I got him a mid-sleeper this time, so I thought it's too high for him
0:32:19 > 0:32:24to bounce like that and too high for him to sit on the edge of the bed
0:32:24 > 0:32:27and bounce which makes the springs go.
0:32:27 > 0:32:32But he managed to lie down and bounce so he beat me.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36You spelt "occasional" wrong.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39Kerry Page refuses to be a victim
0:32:39 > 0:32:42and she invariably bounces back, taking everything
0:32:42 > 0:32:46that happens in this house in her stride.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49But she never quite knows what will happen next.
0:32:50 > 0:32:55For the moment, Sid, the youngest boy is content to settle back
0:32:55 > 0:33:00and quiz the Commissioner about the kind of language he uses.
0:33:03 > 0:33:07Me? No, I try not to. You don't swear a school, either, do you?
0:33:07 > 0:33:10- I don't swear.- Of course you don't.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12Never. Your nose is growing.
0:33:12 > 0:33:17- I'm gonna see the guy on Monday. - You're going to do what on Monday?
0:33:17 > 0:33:19- See him.- See who?
0:33:19 > 0:33:22Gwyndaf? The headmaster?
0:33:22 > 0:33:24- No.- Dafydd.
0:33:24 > 0:33:30- You'll see him on Monday? - Dafydd.- Dafydd, the old headmaster?
0:33:30 > 0:33:34- No. My driver.- Who?
0:33:34 > 0:33:37- Driver, he's my driver. - Driver? Dafydd.
0:33:37 > 0:33:39You just said his name was Gwyndaf!
0:33:39 > 0:33:44Hello, my friend. All the time. He says, hello, my friend.
0:33:44 > 0:33:45He's your friend?
0:33:45 > 0:33:50- He says, hello, my friend. - He does, doesn't he?
0:33:50 > 0:33:54Kerry is separated from her husband and is currently studying to become a teacher
0:33:54 > 0:33:57but for the moment relies on benefits.
0:33:57 > 0:34:03She too finds herself and her children in a poverty trap.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05There's always something they need
0:34:05 > 0:34:09and obviously I like to give them a holiday and things like that.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11Anything they do have costs a lot more than it would
0:34:11 > 0:34:14for a non-disabled child, therapies and things
0:34:14 > 0:34:19that a non-disabled child wouldn't need.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22This is what I have to do quite often twice a night
0:34:22 > 0:34:25with the plastic, then he's got the plastic mattress cover there,
0:34:25 > 0:34:28then the plastic sheet and then a normal sheet.
0:34:28 > 0:34:34Then his quilt and quilt cover.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37It's a bit tiring keep doing that all the time,
0:34:37 > 0:34:40I must be honest, it gets on your nerves.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42Whenever he wets the bed
0:34:42 > 0:34:44you can guarantee his quilt will be wet as well.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46So I have to wash his quilt so I have to have
0:34:46 > 0:34:48an industrial machine. You can't get it in a normal machine.
0:34:48 > 0:34:52At the very lowest point in her role as mother and carer,
0:34:52 > 0:34:58Kerry Page considered killing her two boys and herself.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01You won't be able to have crisps if you're not coming down.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05The family finances make it hard, if not impossible, for her to plan
0:35:05 > 0:35:09future provision for her two sons.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12Her greatest worry now is that she will die before her boys,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15leaving them destitute.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17My biggest fear is obviously dying
0:35:17 > 0:35:20because I need to live one day longer than my children, you know.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22That would be the ideal.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25I need to live to be about 130-odd and I'm working on it
0:35:25 > 0:35:27but it's unlikely.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31I think that's the big fear for anybody that's got a disabled child.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35- Jerk!- We met earlier, didn't we? - Jerk.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38Someone who was reluctant to join in the discussion was George,
0:35:38 > 0:35:43who left us in no doubt that it was time for us to leave.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45- Hi, George. You all right? - Go away, jerk!
0:35:45 > 0:35:49Keith's the Children's Commissioner, he's on your side.
0:35:49 > 0:35:51- No, he's not.- He is.- Go away!
0:35:51 > 0:35:57You can tell Keith anything you want to tell him that you'd like.
0:35:57 > 0:36:03- Get lost! - I think that's a clear message.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05I think it's the moment to get lost.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07Sometimes it's blunt but sometimes it's true.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09I don't know when he gets it from!
0:36:13 > 0:36:16You can only just say it takes your breath away, doesn't it?
0:36:16 > 0:36:18Yes. It does.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22- I defy anybody not to feel exhausted just listening to that.- Yeah.
0:36:22 > 0:36:27Everything about it was - sounds like a cliche -
0:36:27 > 0:36:29but it was just so powerful.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33Yeah, and I think she was just a bit too polite to ask you
0:36:33 > 0:36:36the question that she probably did want to ask you
0:36:36 > 0:36:39which is, so what are you going to do about it?!
0:36:39 > 0:36:41I found myself sitting there thinking,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44"What am I going to do about it?"
0:36:44 > 0:36:46My job in trying to hold people to account, is to say,
0:36:46 > 0:36:50hold on, get real with this, what am I going to do as the Commissioner?
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Well, I need you as politicians to hear what I'm saying.
0:36:54 > 0:36:59Because actually what you've got proposed, what you're lining up
0:36:59 > 0:37:02is going to ruin people's lives and you need to take responsibility
0:37:02 > 0:37:04for improving things.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11The responsibility which Keith Towler refers to
0:37:11 > 0:37:16rests in large part with politicians at Westminster and the Senedd.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20With his words ringing my ears I headed for Cardiff Bay.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26Child poverty transcends political frontiers
0:37:26 > 0:37:28and although the Welsh government
0:37:28 > 0:37:31cannot control tax and benefit income going into households
0:37:31 > 0:37:35it has made a commitment to the children and young people of Wales
0:37:35 > 0:37:39in signing up to the United Nations Convention
0:37:39 > 0:37:41on the rights of the child.
0:37:43 > 0:37:48- Hello, David.- How are you? - Long time no see.- Nice to see you.
0:37:48 > 0:37:52'And the person principally responsible for delivering
0:37:52 > 0:37:57'those rights and hitting the self-imposed target
0:37:57 > 0:38:01'of eradicating child poverty in Wales by 2020 is Gwenda Thomas,
0:38:01 > 0:38:05'the Deputy Minister with responsibility for children.'
0:38:05 > 0:38:09Deputy Minister, can I ask you first of all, some years ago
0:38:09 > 0:38:13the Welsh government set 2020 as a target
0:38:13 > 0:38:16for the eradication of child poverty.
0:38:16 > 0:38:17Is that still your target?
0:38:17 > 0:38:21We are still committed to that target of 2020.
0:38:21 > 0:38:25We are also absolutely committed to ameliorating
0:38:25 > 0:38:27the impact of poverty
0:38:27 > 0:38:30and also doing all that we can to avoid people
0:38:30 > 0:38:35going into long-term poverty so we are committed to those three aims.
0:38:35 > 0:38:39Does it concern you that many people
0:38:39 > 0:38:43in this field are not as confident as you of reaching that target?
0:38:43 > 0:38:46In fact, most people we speak to say
0:38:46 > 0:38:49there is no hope of eradicating child poverty in Wales by 2020.
0:38:49 > 0:38:55In a civilised society, I believe it has to be a top priority
0:38:55 > 0:38:58and it is for this Welsh government.
0:38:58 > 0:39:02We are the first to legislate, of course, on child poverty
0:39:02 > 0:39:05and we will use the legislation to develop delivery plans
0:39:05 > 0:39:09both for the Welsh government and local government and our partners.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12I do think it's going to be difficult
0:39:12 > 0:39:16and we have to take into account the welfare reforms
0:39:16 > 0:39:19and the cuts by the coalition government.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23I have got concerns about that and, of course, the economic downturn.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26But isn't there a difference between an aspiration,
0:39:26 > 0:39:31which is what you seem to be indicating, and a target?
0:39:31 > 0:39:33You may wish this will happen
0:39:33 > 0:39:37but it's not the same as saying it will and that you will achieve it?
0:39:37 > 0:39:40What I'm saying is we can't do everything
0:39:40 > 0:39:43but we will do everything that we possibly can -
0:39:43 > 0:39:46and we are clear about that in the programme for government -
0:39:46 > 0:39:49and we will do everything, as we've started doing,
0:39:49 > 0:39:50to reach those targets.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54It is going to be difficult, I'm not denying that.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58But how many children are going to benefit as a consequence
0:39:58 > 0:40:00of these various measures?
0:40:00 > 0:40:04Because you know there are 200,000 children
0:40:04 > 0:40:07living in poverty in Wales right now.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09One in three children.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12How many are you going to help?
0:40:12 > 0:40:15We are going to try and reach as many of them as we can
0:40:15 > 0:40:19and that 200 figure could be less, of course, because the data...
0:40:19 > 0:40:22- 200,000.- Yes.
0:40:22 > 0:40:27But that data is given to us to the nearest 100,000
0:40:27 > 0:40:30so we don't really know...
0:40:30 > 0:40:33So it could be 300,000?
0:40:33 > 0:40:37It could be 150,000 but I have no access to those figures.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40So what do you base your plans on, then,
0:40:40 > 0:40:42if you don't have access to the figures?
0:40:42 > 0:40:45We have got our own ways of measuring
0:40:45 > 0:40:48and I think clearly identifying need
0:40:48 > 0:40:52by local authorities identifying the need locally,
0:40:52 > 0:40:56and I think local authorities through the community plans
0:40:56 > 0:40:57are best placed to do that.
0:40:57 > 0:41:01Why is it then that the Children's Commissioner
0:41:01 > 0:41:04who accompanied us for a week and looked at the problem for himself
0:41:04 > 0:41:08said at the end of it that he would prefer some honesty
0:41:08 > 0:41:09from politicians and in his view,
0:41:09 > 0:41:16he didn't feel that saying the eradication of child poverty by 2020
0:41:16 > 0:41:20is really what you should be doing? You should be getting more realistic figures based
0:41:20 > 0:41:25perhaps on five-year cycles and ones that you can actually achieve.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28This is the Children's Commissioner saying this, not me.
0:41:28 > 0:41:33I'm not arguing with the credibility of the Children's Commissioner.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37- I have great respect for him. - He is asking for more honesty.
0:41:37 > 0:41:42But I think we are being honest in saying we will do our utmost
0:41:42 > 0:41:47to reach that target and on the way to ameliorate the impact of poverty.
0:41:47 > 0:41:51We know that all the levers on this are not with us here
0:41:51 > 0:41:56in the National Assembly, we know about taxes and benefits,
0:41:56 > 0:41:57income levels...
0:41:57 > 0:42:01But you've always known that and surely you must have factored that
0:42:01 > 0:42:04into your plans when you set the target
0:42:04 > 0:42:06for the eradication of child poverty.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09You can't blame the Westminster government now
0:42:09 > 0:42:13because of measures they've taken since you started on that journey yourself.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17I'm not blaming them but what I am saying is there are some moves
0:42:17 > 0:42:21within the coalition government to redefine poverty.
0:42:21 > 0:42:25I believe in the measure of relative poverty
0:42:25 > 0:42:29and I believe that we have to look at the effects
0:42:29 > 0:42:33within society of people who are relatively poor.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36I think to play about with the definition of poverty
0:42:36 > 0:42:38is missing the point.
0:42:38 > 0:42:41Where is your anti-poverty Action Plan which you launched
0:42:41 > 0:42:47with great fanfare over 18 months ago?
0:42:47 > 0:42:52The anti-poverty Action Plan,
0:42:52 > 0:42:54we are developing it and interestingly, what I thought...
0:42:54 > 0:42:58You said you would actually launch in March this year.
0:42:58 > 0:43:00You said actually you would launch it last year.
0:43:00 > 0:43:06- It had the gestation period of an elephant. - We are developing a policy.
0:43:06 > 0:43:11I thought it important to work with partners in the third sector,
0:43:11 > 0:43:16with the children's commissioner, would save the children, UNICEF, Oxfam...
0:43:16 > 0:43:22- When will we see it?- An independent group independently chaired.
0:43:22 > 0:43:26- When will we see it? - You will see it very shortly indeed.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29Can I return to my initial question?
0:43:29 > 0:43:33I would ask you to bear in mind once again that
0:43:33 > 0:43:36the Children Commissioner's plea to you to be honest.
0:43:36 > 0:43:41Do you really believe you will eradicate child poverty
0:43:41 > 0:43:44in Wales by 2020?
0:43:44 > 0:43:49What I'm saying is quite definitely that will be our aim.
0:43:49 > 0:43:54- Will you achieve it?- I can't say that.- Why set it as a target, then?
0:43:54 > 0:43:58Because of the outside forces are that affect us
0:43:58 > 0:43:59being able to deliver that.
0:43:59 > 0:44:01Is that in Westminster?
0:44:01 > 0:44:05Yes. With the policies we've seen with my welfare reform.
0:44:05 > 0:44:09- So you're impotent, you can't really do anything?- Absolutely not.
0:44:09 > 0:44:12We are not impotent. Far, far from it.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15We have the power and the responsibility to develop
0:44:15 > 0:44:22policies within our own remit to ameliorate the impact of child poverty.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25Thank you very much indeed.
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