0:00:03 > 0:00:07My name is Angela Samata.
0:00:07 > 0:00:1011 years ago I had an ordinary life with
0:00:10 > 0:00:12all the normal worries and dreams that we all have.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17And then, one night, everything changed.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22I came home to find that the man I loved,
0:00:22 > 0:00:25the father of our two boys, had taken his own life.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Since that day I've been learning what it means to lose someone
0:00:32 > 0:00:34you love to suicide.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37And why it's a very different kind of grief to any other.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44I'm going on a journey around Britain to meet people like me,
0:00:44 > 0:00:47who've faced a similar loss, and to try to break down
0:00:47 > 0:00:51some of the stigma and fear that exists around suicide.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56Because if there's one thing I've learnt above all else,
0:00:56 > 0:00:59it's that we have to talk about this.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01It's really important that we talk.
0:01:13 > 0:01:14You may not know this,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17but there's around 6,000 suicides a year in the UK.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24And every year there are thousands of people like me
0:01:24 > 0:01:25who are left behind.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29And we often feel isolated,
0:01:29 > 0:01:32as if we shouldn't really talk about what's happened.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40Luckily, I have a family for whom talking has never been a problem.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Since my partner Mark died, every Sunday my mum Jenny comes
0:01:47 > 0:01:51round to my house in Birkenhead to cook lunch for the whole family.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Put that in that broccoli, love.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57The more concerned she is about us, the more food we get.
0:02:00 > 0:02:01What are you cooking?
0:02:03 > 0:02:10Roast Lamb, roast potatoes, creamed potatoes, new potatoes...
0:02:10 > 0:02:11ANGELA TITTERS
0:02:11 > 0:02:16..carrots, cauliflower, broccoli, mangetout, two types of peas -
0:02:16 > 0:02:18garden peas, mushy peas.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20So we're going for the low carb option today?
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Oh, definitely. Go mad on a Sunday!
0:02:22 > 0:02:25ANGELA LAUGHS
0:02:25 > 0:02:27- We are a very close family.- Yeah.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32Which stood us in good stead, because when it...
0:02:32 > 0:02:37When the whole situation around Mark happened, it kind of, er,
0:02:37 > 0:02:42that became just really pivotal to everything.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44It was such a big shock, because we'd had a conversation
0:02:44 > 0:02:47the night before, hadn't we? About Christmas dinner,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50what we were cooking and where we were having it.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59All right. All right. You all right?
0:03:05 > 0:03:07Come on, don't be crying into the peas.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12'A lot's changed in the last 11 years.'
0:03:12 > 0:03:14Ohhh... Yeah, good, thanks.
0:03:14 > 0:03:15'I didn't have a career then.'
0:03:15 > 0:03:17Hi, how you doing?
0:03:17 > 0:03:18'I work in the art world now.'
0:03:20 > 0:03:22I've got a new partner, Duane.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27And my youngest son Benjamin is 14 years old.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29He was three when Mark died.
0:03:30 > 0:03:35Alexis was 13. He's just turned 25.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37- Down at the other end.- Yep.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42We often talk about Mark. We want them to remember him
0:03:42 > 0:03:45positively and not just because of that one night.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48We wanted the boys to grow up and
0:03:48 > 0:03:51for it to be about how Mark lived and how funny he was
0:03:51 > 0:03:54and how he thought he was an amazing cook when he probably wasn't
0:03:54 > 0:03:57and how he thought he was an amazing musician when he probably wasn't.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Frustrated musician, he was! THEY LAUGH
0:03:59 > 0:04:01But we wanted it to be about that, didn't we?
0:04:01 > 0:04:04- We didn't want it to just be about...- We wanted it to be good memories, not about...
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Well, not just about how he died, it was really important...
0:04:08 > 0:04:10It was how he lived.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12GUESTS CHATTER
0:04:12 > 0:04:14Thank you.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Duane, where are you going, in between the kids?
0:04:16 > 0:04:20- JENNY: I'll go in between. - Are you going in between the kids?
0:04:20 > 0:04:23'When this happens to you, as an ordinary person,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26'as an ordinary family, very, very quickly you become aware
0:04:26 > 0:04:30'of the stigma attached to somebody taking their own life.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32'There's lots of people that don't know how to speak to you,
0:04:32 > 0:04:35'there's lots of people who treat you differently.'
0:04:35 > 0:04:37Does anybody else want mushy peas?
0:04:40 > 0:04:46I think the only way we can help to challenge the stigma
0:04:46 > 0:04:50and deal with the legacy of this is to be really honest and open,
0:04:50 > 0:04:56and I'm kind of hoping that that's what me talking about
0:04:56 > 0:04:58my experiences is going to -
0:04:58 > 0:05:03in some very, very tiny way - help to achieve.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06There you go.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13Oh, yes...
0:05:21 > 0:05:25I think we were probably both 16 in this picture.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28And it was when we'd kind of not long started dating.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32And, er, we thought it would be great to go on this day out,
0:05:32 > 0:05:35to Southport I think it was.
0:05:35 > 0:05:40You can see how young I am and how young he is.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43Me and Mark met when we were at school.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45I was 16 and he was only 15,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48and we went on a date.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50And his friends were saying to him,
0:05:50 > 0:05:53"Oh, my God, you're going out with a sixth former, that's great",
0:05:53 > 0:05:55and my friends were saying to me,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58"What are you doing with a fifth year, what are you doing?"
0:05:58 > 0:06:00And it kind of went from there really.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03He was great fun, he was quirky,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07he was interesting, he was dangerous.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11I was 18 when I had Alexis.
0:06:11 > 0:06:12At that point we kind of thought we knew it all,
0:06:12 > 0:06:16and actually you look back and we didn't know anything,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19we were kind of just muddling our way through.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22And then this picture is Mark and me and Benjamin.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29Benjamin was born when I was 29 and Mark was 28.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32I mean, I look back and think, was that time of excitement
0:06:32 > 0:06:36and kind of hope, was that just a sticking plaster?
0:06:38 > 0:06:41So the relationship building up to Mark's death,
0:06:41 > 0:06:43I was feeling very restless.
0:06:43 > 0:06:47We'd always kind of managed to talk through things,
0:06:47 > 0:06:50so we talked about it a lot, we talked about the fact that
0:06:50 > 0:06:53I was feeling as if I was kind of, almost claustrophobic.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59We decided that we were going to live separately for a little while.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05If I'd have realised the potential consequences of then
0:07:05 > 0:07:08what happened, maybe I wouldn't have said anything,
0:07:08 > 0:07:10maybe I would have just continued things
0:07:10 > 0:07:12and kept quiet, who knows?
0:07:14 > 0:07:16Hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?
0:07:25 > 0:07:29This is the park that we used to come to a lot.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32And, er, the house where we...
0:07:32 > 0:07:36where Mark's death occurred is actually just over the way there.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44I haven't been back here for years, it's...
0:07:44 > 0:07:45mixed emotions, definitely.
0:07:50 > 0:07:56On the day that Mark actually died, I had just started a new job.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00The boys went off to school and Mark normally left just before me,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03but actually I left first that morning.
0:08:04 > 0:08:09In the afternoon I got a call from Mark's work
0:08:09 > 0:08:11saying that he hadn't turned in.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17And it wasn't until 6 o'clock that I actually managed to
0:08:17 > 0:08:20get hold of him on the phone, and he said,
0:08:20 > 0:08:22"Remember that I love you,
0:08:22 > 0:08:25"and look, I'm really, really sorry."
0:08:25 > 0:08:27And I thought that he was apologising
0:08:27 > 0:08:31for the fact he hadn't gone to work.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34I collected the boys from my mum's house and drove home.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40I walked up the path, put the key in the door, opened the door,
0:08:40 > 0:08:46and then as I opened the door, I could just see his...his outline.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48And at that point I realised that in fact Mark
0:08:48 > 0:08:50had hung himself in the hallway.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57And behind me I could hear the boys laughing.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03It was the most unreal, surreal situation.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07I can't... I find it hard to describe it really,
0:09:07 > 0:09:11because it was just something that never ever
0:09:11 > 0:09:15enters your head in your wildest imagination.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Mark's death was devastating for me,
0:09:34 > 0:09:37but as I've since discovered, it wasn't unusual.
0:09:37 > 0:09:41Four out of every five people who take their own lives are male,
0:09:41 > 0:09:45and suicide is the biggest killer of men under 50 in Britain.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50But I didn't know any of that 11 years ago.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53I was just one of the many people left in shock,
0:09:53 > 0:09:58with very little guidance about where to go or who to talk to.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02It wasn't until about nine months after Mark died that one morning
0:10:02 > 0:10:06I woke up and I felt very disorientated.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09I felt as if I didn't know
0:10:09 > 0:10:13if I wanted to sit down or stand up, or eat or drink, or...
0:10:13 > 0:10:15Just felt very, very disorientated.
0:10:17 > 0:10:22Fortunately I found a support group known as SOBS.
0:10:22 > 0:10:28At first when I saw the acronym of "Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide",
0:10:28 > 0:10:30I genuinely didn't know what to expect.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36I think for me when I lost my son, er, and I look back now
0:10:36 > 0:10:40and they were very dark days, and I was just desperate.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45Desperate for help in how to deal with the feelings,
0:10:45 > 0:10:48the emotions, the unanswered questions.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52I get loads of support, I've got wonderful friends and family,
0:10:52 > 0:10:55but sometimes I think, "Do they really understand us?
0:10:55 > 0:10:57"Do people understand?"
0:10:57 > 0:11:01Because I think that death by suicide is...horrendous,
0:11:01 > 0:11:06and it's worse than any other kind of death, I think.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08Well, I used the word a few years ago,
0:11:08 > 0:11:12- but a tsunami of grief hits you.- Yeah.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14You think you're doing all right,
0:11:14 > 0:11:18you're having an all right day. And then wham. And, er...
0:11:20 > 0:11:21Ooph.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23Some of the people here have been coming to
0:11:23 > 0:11:27the support group for many years.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Others like Rebecca are much more recently bereaved.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34I can't understand why my husband's left my children,
0:11:34 > 0:11:36- and I see the pain in their faces.- Yep.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38I don't know how you can write
0:11:38 > 0:11:41a letter to your children and then take your life.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44- How old are they? - 14 and 18.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47- And how long's it been? - Five weeks.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49- It is very recent, isn't it?- Yeah.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I feel guilty in that I should have recognised that
0:11:52 > 0:11:54he was in that dark place,
0:11:54 > 0:11:59and I feel partly responsible for not perhaps understanding,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02when he was a bit low, but I never thought he'd do this.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05My son, there were no signs whatsoever.
0:12:06 > 0:12:11- No.- As a mum, you question yourself, "Have I been a bad parent,
0:12:11 > 0:12:15"what have I done that's made him do this?"
0:12:15 > 0:12:20But there were no signs. It was just...like that.
0:12:22 > 0:12:27Losing someone in this way is a very specific type of bereavement.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31We experience emotions that are very specific to suicide.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34And it doesn't follow a natural pattern, there's no book that is
0:12:34 > 0:12:37going to say to you, "You're going to go through this process,
0:12:37 > 0:12:39"your grief is going to follow this path
0:12:39 > 0:12:42"and this is what you're going to experience at this time."
0:12:42 > 0:12:46It's literally that you can feel different emotions from
0:12:46 > 0:12:49hour to hour, from minute to minute sometimes.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50It is different.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52You can go for a little bit, and you're all right,
0:12:52 > 0:12:55and then all of a sudden it smacks you again.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58What are you supposed to do, just stay in bed all day,
0:12:58 > 0:13:00and just hope it's all going to go away?
0:13:00 > 0:13:03Because, believe me, I do, and yesterday I've thought
0:13:03 > 0:13:07to myself, "What is the point? What is the point to all this?"
0:13:07 > 0:13:10There's something about being bereaved by suicide
0:13:10 > 0:13:13and the fact that that person that you loved and you knew -
0:13:13 > 0:13:18or you thought you knew - has taken their own life by their own hand.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Coming to terms with that can be very, very difficult
0:13:21 > 0:13:23and can be a very long road.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28If my husband had had a heart attack, been murdered,
0:13:28 > 0:13:31knocked off his bike, although it would have been desperate,
0:13:31 > 0:13:32I could have perhaps...
0:13:32 > 0:13:35It was out of his hands, but it's the thought
0:13:35 > 0:13:37that that morning he got up, he made me a cup of tea in bed,
0:13:37 > 0:13:40he had his breakfast, he washed his dishes,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43he emptied the dishwasher, he drove to work...
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and three hours later he was dead.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48And that's what I find very, very hard to understand.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53The grief is unbelievable.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57I can't tell you how painful, the grief... It's like, um...
0:13:57 > 0:14:01if you've ever lost your wallet, or something happens
0:14:01 > 0:14:03and you get a shock, and your heart stops.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06That's it, but it's constant. Constant.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11And I want the world to stop, but it's not, it's carrying on.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14You know, it's very, very... Very, very strange.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21When you openly talk about suicide, people are frightened of it.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23And that's not because people don't necessarily
0:14:23 > 0:14:26want to understand it, it's because, for a long time,
0:14:26 > 0:14:29those conversations haven't been happening.
0:14:29 > 0:14:34SOBS is just ordinary people who have been bereaved in the
0:14:34 > 0:14:39same way who are willing to come along and share their experiences.
0:14:39 > 0:14:46We are trying in our small way to deal with the taboo of the subject.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54One of the questions that haunts you after suicide is "Why?"
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Mark hadn't shown any obvious signs of depression,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03and, like most people who take their own lives,
0:15:03 > 0:15:04he didn't leave a note.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10I've come to Glasgow University to meet Professor Rory O'Connor,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13one of the UK's leading experts on suicide,
0:15:13 > 0:15:15to see if he's got any answers for me.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20What a place to work, it's absolutely gorgeous.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Great to meet you. Nice to meet you.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24- So maybe we take a wee wander round? - Yeah, great.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31For me, the big question after Mark died was, why did he take his life?
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Our research can never answer the question of why
0:15:33 > 0:15:36a particular individual... So for example, we can't answer,
0:15:36 > 0:15:38the question, sadly, of why Mark took his own life.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40What we try and do is understand the
0:15:40 > 0:15:44common features of the suicidal mind, we speak to people who have
0:15:44 > 0:15:47tried to kill themselves, we try and understand
0:15:47 > 0:15:51the factors which led up to why they attempted to end their own lives.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56And it's not a selfish act. Suicide is not a selfish act.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58It's an expression of unbearable pain.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01People take their own lives often not because they want to
0:16:01 > 0:16:03kill themselves, but because they want the pain to end.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07We talk about this constricted thinking, this tunnel vision,
0:16:07 > 0:16:10this tunnel logic, so that the person
0:16:10 > 0:16:14maybe is not necessarily looking outwardly distressed,
0:16:14 > 0:16:16but has decided themselves that for whatever
0:16:16 > 0:16:21set of reasons, usually complex reasons, "I'm going to kill myself."
0:16:21 > 0:16:23In a way, that's the end of their problems,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26because in their mind they've found the solution.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31Professor O'Connor and his team have conducted tests
0:16:31 > 0:16:33with over 2,000 people who have attempted suicide.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42I'm going to apply it gradually harder, I would like you to say stop
0:16:42 > 0:16:44when it first feels uncomfortable.
0:16:47 > 0:16:48Stop.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51I'll just take over for a second, Karen.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53So this is a pressure metre, or an algometer.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57We exert pressure on people's hands, and what that does
0:16:57 > 0:17:01- is it gets some sort of objective measure of pain and sensitivity.- OK.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04Because what we think might be going on is that people who
0:17:04 > 0:17:07attempt suicide have a higher pain threshold.
0:17:07 > 0:17:12They can put up with more physical pain than the average person.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14Yeah. So this is a measure of pain tolerance.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Say stop when you feel this becoming too uncomfortable to continue.
0:17:21 > 0:17:22Stop.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26'The pain threshold test is one of many conducted at the lab,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30'from which Professor O'Connor has built up a picture
0:17:30 > 0:17:33'of the common factors that can lead to suicide.'
0:17:33 > 0:17:38So this is us trying to piece together the sort of pathway to suicide.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42How is it that some people develop suicidal thoughts and others don't?
0:17:42 > 0:17:44And what we think is vitally important, if you're
0:17:44 > 0:17:48feeling defeated and humiliated and you feel you can't escape
0:17:48 > 0:17:52from that, you feel trapped, you're much more likely to become suicidal.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54In particular, this sense of being trapped.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59So if you've got that defeat plus the feeling of
0:17:59 > 0:18:03this conical, constricted view of the world,
0:18:03 > 0:18:07- then that seems to be a pretty lethal combination.- Absolutely.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09I'm just wondering,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12when you're looking at things like entrapment, it must be
0:18:12 > 0:18:17such a subjective thing, how do you even start having that conversation?
0:18:17 > 0:18:22What we use are established questionnaires. I'll show you.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27It's 16 questions, and crucially, we don't just look at one question,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29they come together and tell us an overall score
0:18:29 > 0:18:31of how trapped you feel.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33So we've got...
0:18:39 > 0:18:42SHE READS ALOUD
0:18:43 > 0:18:45They feel like very poignant questions,
0:18:45 > 0:18:49do people sometimes find them difficult to answer?
0:18:49 > 0:18:52We've been doing this work now for 20 years, and in general
0:18:52 > 0:18:56people are really, really glad somebody's asking about them.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59And trying to understand why suicide happens.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02Professor O'Connor's commitment to answering that question
0:19:02 > 0:19:05is more than just professional.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08Like me, he's lost someone to suicide.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12Six years ago a very close friend of mine took her own life,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15and that really was, er, just devastating,
0:19:15 > 0:19:19and particularly devastating because I'd been working
0:19:19 > 0:19:22in this area for so long, and I just felt such a failure.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25That I'd let that person down, and that we were really, really close
0:19:25 > 0:19:29and basically, why couldn't I have prevented her suicide?
0:19:29 > 0:19:33What it really highlights for me is, yes, as a researcher I understand
0:19:33 > 0:19:37the importance of objectivity, but it's more personal now.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39Really, really much more personal now.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48When Rory described how in the suicidal mind,
0:19:48 > 0:19:52you know, that constriction of the world view,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56and how problems that you or I may consider as small
0:19:56 > 0:19:59may be magnified within that constricted view
0:19:59 > 0:20:01and may seem insurmountable.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07I could just kind of feel myself really, really relating to that
0:20:07 > 0:20:09and just wondering whether that was how
0:20:09 > 0:20:11Mark's view of the world had changed.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15BELLS RING
0:20:17 > 0:20:21It's really got me thinking about it in a completely different way,
0:20:21 > 0:20:23in a way I haven't thought about it in 11 years.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31For people like me who've lost a partner to suicide,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33one of the biggest problems is how you explain
0:20:33 > 0:20:35what's happened to your children.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40This is a picture of Ben,
0:20:40 > 0:20:43and it's when he was about two-and-a-half.
0:20:43 > 0:20:48And, erm, he's got his buggy here, he used to love pushing his buggy.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50Not a care in the world.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54Benjamin's questions used to be, "Why did Daddy die?"
0:20:54 > 0:20:57So we had that question quite a lot,
0:20:57 > 0:20:59"When is Daddy back, when is Daddy back?"
0:20:59 > 0:21:02And he would say that over and over again, and I would then have
0:21:02 > 0:21:07to answer him each time saying, "Daddy's not coming back, Benjamin."
0:21:07 > 0:21:11And then there's another picture here that's a little bit later,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13this was done in 2009.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19And then at about five I think it was, instead of saying to me,
0:21:19 > 0:21:23"Why did Daddy die?", he said, "How did Daddy die?"
0:21:23 > 0:21:27So that one word completely changed the question.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29So I said to him,
0:21:29 > 0:21:31"Do you know when Mummy tells you that you can't
0:21:31 > 0:21:34"tie a scarf around your neck, tight, why do I tell you that?"
0:21:34 > 0:21:38And he said, "Because it will stop me breathing."
0:21:38 > 0:21:44And I said "Well, Daddy knew that if he tied something
0:21:44 > 0:21:49"very, very, very, very tight that it would stop him breathing,
0:21:49 > 0:21:52"and he would go to heaven,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54"so that's what happened to Daddy."
0:21:54 > 0:21:56And he said, "OK."
0:21:58 > 0:22:01'I just remember that moment, it took me
0:22:01 > 0:22:04'a few minutes to get myself together and
0:22:04 > 0:22:05'be able to actually look at him.'
0:22:07 > 0:22:09My fear for the boys was that,
0:22:09 > 0:22:13although I always wanted to talk very openly about their father
0:22:13 > 0:22:18with them, I also didn't want it to...become an option for them.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24So it was a... It continues to be a very, very, fine line
0:22:24 > 0:22:27between having the conversation -
0:22:27 > 0:22:32that I feel very strongly should happen -
0:22:32 > 0:22:36and yet not having the conversation to the point where it becomes
0:22:36 > 0:22:41so normalised that it becomes, like, an OK thing to consider.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Talking to my boys about their dad's death wasn't helped
0:22:52 > 0:22:54by the wall of silence around suicide.
0:22:56 > 0:22:58But now, a few people in the public eye
0:22:58 > 0:23:01are starting to speak out about their experiences.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07I've come to West London to meet the actor David Robb,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11who plays Dr Clarkson in the TV series Downton Abbey.
0:23:13 > 0:23:1718 months ago his wife, the actress Briony McRoberts,
0:23:17 > 0:23:19having struggled with anorexia,
0:23:19 > 0:23:21took her own life at a local tube station.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29- Angela.- Hello. Nice to meet you. - Hello, come in.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33Can I interest you in a tea or a coffee?
0:23:33 > 0:23:35I would love a cup of tea, please. That would be great.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Right, come through to the kitchen.
0:23:38 > 0:23:43- Thank you, that's great.- Do you want to come through?- Yes, please, yes.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45I'll follow you, I'm on your turf.
0:23:45 > 0:23:46HE LAUGHS
0:23:49 > 0:23:54These are sort of random photos. So, this is Briony.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57About five, six years ago. Pretty lady.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01- Absolutely beautiful.- So she's about 50, I should think.- Wow.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06- She doesn't look anywhere near 50.- No.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09And that's the play that we met in. Betsy.
0:24:09 > 0:24:15And there she is, 18. Me, 28. we had this luurve scene.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18- LAUGHING:- And did it just last a bit longer each night?
0:24:18 > 0:24:20It sort of did, yeah.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22She had to grow up in it,
0:24:22 > 0:24:24and the last act she had her hair up, I always remember.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26And I used to have to stand behind her,
0:24:26 > 0:24:30walking on stage at one point, and I loved the back of her ears.
0:24:30 > 0:24:31I can remember quite clearly,
0:24:31 > 0:24:34- sort of falling in love with the back of her head.- Really?
0:24:36 > 0:24:38It was a long time ago, 1975.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44How long is it since your husband died?
0:24:44 > 0:24:47It's a little while now, it's, er, 11 years.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49- You found Mark, didn't you? - Yeah, I did, yeah.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53I just can't imagine the level of shock that that must have involved.
0:24:53 > 0:24:55I had the opposite.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59Briony left the house before I came down in the morning...
0:24:59 > 0:25:02and didn't come back.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04- And then the police turned up. - Really?
0:25:04 > 0:25:06At about 4 o'clock in the afternoon,
0:25:06 > 0:25:11because she had my Oyster card, my, you know, ticket thing.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14And...
0:25:14 > 0:25:18- I was advised by the police and the coroner not to see her body.- Mmm.
0:25:18 > 0:25:24So I never saw her, she just walked out of my life.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27So it's as if she's been erased in a nuclear explosion.
0:25:29 > 0:25:34That's a very weird thing, and when I think of the memory,
0:25:34 > 0:25:36the, you know, the physical memory,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40and the smell of her and the back of her ears,
0:25:40 > 0:25:46and all of the things that made her unique...no longer exist.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48How? How?
0:25:48 > 0:25:50Because I touched them for 38 years.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56And that's difficult, really difficult.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01Really difficult.
0:26:04 > 0:26:09I have the opposite in that the last time I held him
0:26:09 > 0:26:12was when he'd already passed away.
0:26:12 > 0:26:17And so although my head can compute that it was kind of...
0:26:17 > 0:26:20I know that it was very real and all of that,
0:26:20 > 0:26:25it still has that same surreal sense that you have,
0:26:25 > 0:26:30- so it's a small comfort. Small comfort.- Mm.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33It must have been so difficult for you to go through
0:26:33 > 0:26:36such a private time so publicly.
0:26:36 > 0:26:41It exploded in the media. Only for 24 hours, but it was huge.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44And you suddenly realise that it wasn't just the people
0:26:44 > 0:26:47you invited to the funeral that were going to pitch up,
0:26:47 > 0:26:50there were going to be hundreds of other people.
0:26:50 > 0:26:54And in some ways that was rather magnificent.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58It was stupendous, and if she'd seen... I mean, everybody said,
0:26:58 > 0:27:00- "God, if she could see..."- Yeah.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02I had a supermarket thing where a total stranger
0:27:02 > 0:27:06came up and said, "I'm so sorry, I just want to say
0:27:06 > 0:27:08"I always used to see you and your wife
0:27:08 > 0:27:11"in here on a Saturday morning, and I know what happened
0:27:11 > 0:27:12"and I'm just so terribly sorry."
0:27:12 > 0:27:16- Well, that's very touching as well.- Yeah, of course it is.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20For me, 18 months was a really difficult time,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23because it felt as if everyone else's life was carrying on.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27- Well, everyone else gets used to it. - And I think that's what I found difficult.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29And they should, because it's quite right that people
0:27:29 > 0:27:31are getting on, and...
0:27:31 > 0:27:33Not forgetting, but it falls into some kind of perspective,
0:27:33 > 0:27:37but it's not really falling into perspective for me.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40You kind of think, "So who was this person that I was with?"
0:27:40 > 0:27:42Because she wouldn't have done that.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48And I don't think there's any real coming to terms with that,
0:27:48 > 0:27:50you just have to somehow live with it.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53- Tell me it gets better.- Yeah.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57- I can absolutely promise you that it gets better.- Really?
0:27:57 > 0:28:01- Yeah, absolutely.- I've lost the person who was a rock for me.
0:28:01 > 0:28:07You know, and in terms of taste, and being a homemaker
0:28:07 > 0:28:11- and a brilliant partner and a glamorous woman...- Mm.
0:28:11 > 0:28:12HE EXHALES
0:28:17 > 0:28:19You OK?
0:28:22 > 0:28:23Unbelievable.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29(You all right? You all right?)
0:28:31 > 0:28:33Yeah.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38So, it goes round and round, doesn't it?
0:28:53 > 0:28:56Meeting David has taken me right back to where I was 18 months
0:28:56 > 0:29:00after Mark's death, when I was still lost in the sense
0:29:00 > 0:29:03of utter disbelief that the person I thought I knew
0:29:03 > 0:29:05could take their own life.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11It makes you feel as though you'll never be able to fully trust
0:29:11 > 0:29:12anyone or anything ever again.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18When you're in that place,
0:29:18 > 0:29:21it feels impossible that you can ever rebuild your life.
0:29:21 > 0:29:26But my experience is that you can - if you can talk about it.
0:29:32 > 0:29:3411 years after Mark's death,
0:29:34 > 0:29:39my oldest son Alexis feels like he's done all of his talking.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41His dad was a keen amateur guitarist
0:29:41 > 0:29:45and Alexis now expresses himself as the drummer of a band.
0:29:47 > 0:29:48Whooo!
0:29:51 > 0:29:55His brother Benjamin and I, of course, are his biggest fans.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00# I'd love to wrap the stars around the moon
0:30:00 > 0:30:03# Of you-ou-ou... #
0:30:09 > 0:30:11Alexis started drumming when he was about 14.
0:30:11 > 0:30:14I don't know whether some of it was
0:30:14 > 0:30:18because he'd not long lost his dad, or whether it was just something
0:30:18 > 0:30:21that would have happened naturally anyway.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26But now he's been drumming for ten years and you can tell he loves it.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31As a parent, you kind of live for those moments where you
0:30:31 > 0:30:36see your child just completely absorbed in what they're doing
0:30:36 > 0:30:38and just completely enjoying what they're doing
0:30:38 > 0:30:41and you get a real sense of that when you see Alexis drum.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52When he first started playing gigs, it was really, really difficult
0:30:52 > 0:30:54because when I used to go and watch him play,
0:30:54 > 0:30:56and it's still the case now, really,
0:30:56 > 0:31:00you do kind of wish every time he's on stage that his dad could
0:31:00 > 0:31:01see what he was doing, really,
0:31:01 > 0:31:03because I think he'd be so proud of him.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12Nights like tonight, he would have loved this.
0:31:12 > 0:31:17# I am the mountain now
0:31:18 > 0:31:22# And the rain. #
0:31:25 > 0:31:27CHEERING
0:31:28 > 0:31:32SINGER: Thank you, we love you all, thank you very much!
0:31:54 > 0:31:58I understand now that there was a part of Mark that couldn't share
0:31:58 > 0:32:01how he was really feeling with us, his family.
0:32:02 > 0:32:03But I've often wondered
0:32:03 > 0:32:06whether things might have turned out differently
0:32:06 > 0:32:09if he'd been able to get away for a bit and speak to someone else.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Here in a residential street in North London there's an organisation
0:32:16 > 0:32:17called The Maytree,
0:32:17 > 0:32:21which offers that option to people who feel suicidal.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26I've come to meet Angela Rodrigues,
0:32:26 > 0:32:30who's worked here for the last eight years.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33- Hello, is it Angela? - It is, hello. Welcome to Maytree.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35- Thank you so much.- Come in.
0:32:45 > 0:32:49So, Angela, when people come here, what are they coming here for?
0:32:49 > 0:32:52Because it's not... It's quite a special place, isn't it?
0:32:52 > 0:32:56It is, a lot of our callers will have been googling ways
0:32:56 > 0:32:57to kill themselves.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59- Really?- Yeah.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03We pop up at the top of the page and then they see Maytree,
0:33:03 > 0:33:04and they'll have a read,
0:33:04 > 0:33:08and that's, they then have a think about it, then they'll call us.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10And is Maytree a one-off?
0:33:10 > 0:33:14You know, are there other Maytrees around the country or is this
0:33:14 > 0:33:17- the only...?- No, this is the only one so far.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19What we do, we offer a safe space.
0:33:19 > 0:33:24We work with suicide. This is where you can come in and be honest,
0:33:24 > 0:33:28without that fear of feeling judged or upsetting anyone.
0:33:29 > 0:33:33After an initial assessment, Maytree offers its guests a five-day
0:33:33 > 0:33:38residential break from the pressures of everyday life.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42So, on this floor we've got two bedrooms and a bathroom.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46And this is one of our newly decorated rooms.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48So they're spacious and they're airy.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50Oh, wow. This is lovely.
0:33:52 > 0:33:57And as you can see, we've got nurse alarms for people that have...
0:33:57 > 0:34:00If anyone has difficulty in the night, they press that.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02So they're designed with, you know
0:34:02 > 0:34:05with safety - again, you'll notice that the curtain pole, it bends.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07These are collapsible, aren't they?
0:34:07 > 0:34:09I noticed that as soon as I walked in...
0:34:09 > 0:34:14Yeah, so if anyone does try and make an attempt, it's not going to work.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18Have you ever had guests here who have actually taken it
0:34:18 > 0:34:23- as an opportunity to attempt to take their lives here?- Yeah.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25And what we say to guests, we make it very clear,
0:34:25 > 0:34:30we have a guest agreement, er, that if someone does make an attempt
0:34:30 > 0:34:33here, that, er, we will have to intervene.
0:34:33 > 0:34:38The most important part if that happens, is being with them
0:34:38 > 0:34:41and trying to hold on to our relationship with them and not
0:34:41 > 0:34:45to just hand it over to someone and walk away - we wouldn't do that.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48- We'll be with them, we'll stay with them at the hospital.- OK.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51And hopefully, depending how bad it would ever be,
0:34:51 > 0:34:55if they're able to come back and finish their stay, they come back.
0:34:59 > 0:35:03The Maytree was set up 20 years ago by two former Samaritans,
0:35:03 > 0:35:07who wanted to offer a refuge to people who felt isolated
0:35:07 > 0:35:08by their suicidal feelings.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13I mean, the stigma around suicide,
0:35:13 > 0:35:18I mean, I've felt it as a bereaved person, er,
0:35:18 > 0:35:23is it something that you feel or that you think that the guests feel?
0:35:23 > 0:35:26Oh, absolutely, we need to be talking about suicide,
0:35:26 > 0:35:31we live in a society that's scared to talk about death, let alone suicide.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35We need to be able to be open
0:35:35 > 0:35:38and talk about it, without that fear of being judged.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40That is so important.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42We need to use the word, stop hiding from it,
0:35:42 > 0:35:47stop hiding from it, let's talk about it and that's the key - talking.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49How did you first come across Maytree?
0:35:49 > 0:35:53Was it in a working capacity or was it in a different...?
0:35:53 > 0:36:00No, I'd actually...have made several attempts myself,
0:36:00 > 0:36:03I've been through the mental health system,
0:36:03 > 0:36:06er, I'd been in psychiatric units.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08Er...
0:36:08 > 0:36:12And I struggled to find a reason to live.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15I mean, I couldn't even leave the house,
0:36:15 > 0:36:17I couldn't even take my children to school.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19How many children did you have then?
0:36:19 > 0:36:22I have three daughters, yeah, who were small.
0:36:22 > 0:36:28I suppose we're on opposite sides of the fence, because I have wanted
0:36:28 > 0:36:31and thought about how Mark must have felt
0:36:31 > 0:36:33just before he took his life. That's been a major part
0:36:33 > 0:36:37of my bereavement, my grief, really, is trying desperately
0:36:37 > 0:36:42to understand how it feels to be
0:36:42 > 0:36:48in that place where you really are convinced 100% that your children
0:36:48 > 0:36:49will be better off without you.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54I remember kissing my children good night...
0:36:54 > 0:36:55Here goes...
0:37:01 > 0:37:02- Sorry.- It's OK.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07And just thinking that they would be better off.
0:37:08 > 0:37:15That they would not have to... watch their mother not cope.
0:37:15 > 0:37:16Mm.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21You are in a box, whichever way you turn,
0:37:21 > 0:37:23it's just blackness all around you.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27It's almost like being in, you know... I remember times thinking,
0:37:27 > 0:37:31"Come on, there must be a way" and it's like being in treacle,
0:37:31 > 0:37:36you cannot move, you're rooted and the world's just whizzing past you,
0:37:36 > 0:37:40you can't see, and that's what's so important here,
0:37:40 > 0:37:45because for someone that's walking through this door that is suicidal,
0:37:45 > 0:37:49at that point, they may never have had contact with someone else who
0:37:49 > 0:37:56is suicidal, so when you see guests sitting down and talking, that also
0:37:56 > 0:38:02enables them to see that, "Wow, it's not just me, other people do suffer."
0:38:02 > 0:38:07And around this table, the conversation, it can just happen,
0:38:07 > 0:38:09it's very organic, it's very natural.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12It's just been wonderful to see this today
0:38:12 > 0:38:15because you're doing amazing things here.
0:38:15 > 0:38:16- Thank you.- Thank you.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27Almost all of Maytree's guests say that they suffer fewer
0:38:27 > 0:38:31suicidal thoughts and attempts after staying here.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35Which makes you wonder why, when suicide is such a big problem,
0:38:35 > 0:38:38this is the only house of its kind in the UK.
0:38:41 > 0:38:45Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I just wish that
0:38:45 > 0:38:48if Mark had known about somewhere like Maytree then maybe
0:38:48 > 0:38:51he could've come somewhere like this for a few days.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53I just wish that he'd have known about this.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03If the stigma around suicide can make it difficult for adults
0:39:03 > 0:39:06to talk about it, imagine what it's like being a child.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12When Mark died, my boys, Alexis and Ben, lost one parent
0:39:12 > 0:39:16and were left with me, the other, completely traumatised.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20While I did my best to let them know that they could always talk
0:39:20 > 0:39:22about what had happened to us,
0:39:22 > 0:39:25I'm interested in how other families deal with suicide
0:39:25 > 0:39:29and I've come to meet the Ebdons, who live in rural Somerset.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32It was something like that.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34Then everyone's happy.
0:39:34 > 0:39:39Farmer Simon Ebdon lost his wife Domine to suicide five years ago,
0:39:39 > 0:39:43leaving him to bring up their five daughters on his own.
0:39:44 > 0:39:48Three years ago, he met his new partner Vicky.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50Where shall we put it? There we are.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52Where's mine gone?
0:39:52 > 0:39:53There we are. There's yours, Em.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57- Do we need a bigger tree to fit it all on?- Yeah.
0:39:57 > 0:40:01'They've kindly invited me to their home a few days before Christmas.'
0:40:02 > 0:40:05- Hello.- Hello. - Nice to meet you.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08- Nice to meet you, too.- Come on in, come through.- Thank you.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10And then you can meet the family.
0:40:10 > 0:40:14- Hi, girls!- Hi.- Hello.
0:40:14 > 0:40:15So this is Rosie.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17Hello, Rosie, nice to meet you.
0:40:17 > 0:40:19- This is Molly. - Hello, Molly.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22- And that is Izzie.- Izzie.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24And there's Charlotte.
0:40:24 > 0:40:27Great to meet you. You're Em, aren't you?
0:40:27 > 0:40:30I just spotted all your pictures, they're gorgeous.
0:40:31 > 0:40:35'Vicky came to live with the Ebdon girls two years after
0:40:35 > 0:40:37'the death of their mum, Domine.'
0:40:37 > 0:40:41When you first became part of the family,
0:40:41 > 0:40:44you weren't just dealing with Simon's grief, you were dealing with
0:40:44 > 0:40:47the five girls, as well, and the baby was a baby...
0:40:47 > 0:40:51There were days when, you know, Mum's name would be mentioned
0:40:51 > 0:40:56and they would get upset, and Simon would do... He would cry
0:40:56 > 0:40:59all the time, and the girls would...
0:40:59 > 0:41:01They just couldn't bear it,
0:41:01 > 0:41:07so it stopped them from crying, so they were too scared to cry
0:41:07 > 0:41:08because it would make Simon cry
0:41:08 > 0:41:12and then it was just a vicious circle.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15I've come from a family where we do a lot of talking.
0:41:15 > 0:41:19I think it's important if you have something inside you,
0:41:19 > 0:41:21that you let it out.
0:41:22 > 0:41:27'Vicky contacted Winston's Wish, a charity which works with bereaved
0:41:27 > 0:41:30'children, including those who've lost their mum
0:41:30 > 0:41:31'or their dad to suicide.'
0:41:31 > 0:41:36So when you went to Winton's Wish, tell me about that.
0:41:36 > 0:41:41They talked to us and told us about, like, the camp.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43- OK.- The weekend we went,
0:41:43 > 0:41:47then we went to it, and it was really fun, cos there wasn't
0:41:47 > 0:41:49actually much talking.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53- Well, there was,- It was, but they tried not to make it...
0:41:53 > 0:41:54- Too upsetting.- Yeah.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57We, like, had, on the first day, we did loads of...
0:41:57 > 0:41:59Activities and stuff.
0:41:59 > 0:42:03Activities like archery, and we were in, like, groups, each of us
0:42:03 > 0:42:04were in a different group.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07We did all the games first, so I think it was like a
0:42:07 > 0:42:10trust-building thing, and we all sort of, like, learned
0:42:10 > 0:42:15a lot about each other, sounds like stupid stuff but it does matter...
0:42:15 > 0:42:18No, but you got to know each other first as, kind of, people.
0:42:18 > 0:42:22- It was good, cos you realise that you're really not the only one. - Yeah, OK.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24Even though they say that you're not, like, you don't
0:42:24 > 0:42:26really know anyone,
0:42:26 > 0:42:29but then you go there and everyone's in the exact same boat.
0:42:29 > 0:42:31You struggled, Char, didn't you?
0:42:31 > 0:42:34- You found it really upsetting, you didn't like it.- Nope.- No.
0:42:34 > 0:42:35She still doesn't like it.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38- Still doesn't like talking about it - Tell me why.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42I just don't feel the need to. It's not that I don't want to,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45I don't mind talking about it, I just... It's OK,
0:42:45 > 0:42:48- it's just, yeah, it is upsetting.- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:42:50 > 0:42:53- This is Domine.- Let's have a look at this. This is your one.
0:42:53 > 0:42:55This is on holiday, a fantastic place.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58- Do you have this one in your bedroom?- Yeah.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01My boys have pictures of their dad in their bedroom, too.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05This is quite a nice natural photo, er,
0:43:05 > 0:43:09which we only found a few days ago.
0:43:09 > 0:43:15Domine was my best friend, the person I loved, she was everything.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20Fantastic mother, you know. You'd never think
0:43:20 > 0:43:25she would do anything like that, you know, but obviously she was
0:43:25 > 0:43:27in a bad place, you know,
0:43:27 > 0:43:30and was just... Well, couldn't take it any longer.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32(Are you all right?)
0:43:34 > 0:43:36You're OK.
0:43:36 > 0:43:38You all right? You OK?
0:43:42 > 0:43:43It's very sad.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50There are days when it's actually really difficult.
0:43:50 > 0:43:56But they are coming through it, and maybe they won't ever
0:43:56 > 0:44:00get over it, I don't... You can't get over something like that,
0:44:00 > 0:44:05but you can adjust, and you can learn to live and live alongside
0:44:05 > 0:44:08what's happened and that's kind of what I wanted for them.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11I just think from everything that I've heard today,
0:44:11 > 0:44:14the fact that you came into the family
0:44:14 > 0:44:19and enabled those conversations to happen, I think is probably
0:44:19 > 0:44:23the greatest gift that you could have given any of those five girls.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25- Did you get a bird, as well?- No.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28And where's Rosie's?
0:44:28 > 0:44:29Lovely!
0:44:29 > 0:44:35- It all looks beautiful, doesn't it? - Yep.
0:44:35 > 0:44:36That's all right, though, Em.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43- Izzie, can you put this next to you? - Yeah.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54Before I head home for Christmas myself,
0:44:54 > 0:44:58I'm heading to Norfolk to meet a woman called Jacqui Page.
0:44:59 > 0:45:04I think going to see Jacqui today is going to be really difficult
0:45:04 > 0:45:08out of all the people that we've met.
0:45:08 > 0:45:11Jacqui has had to deal with one of the most tragic aspects of suicide.
0:45:11 > 0:45:16That those left behind are sometimes at risk themselves.
0:45:18 > 0:45:2224 years ago, her husband Rod took his own life.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26Seven years ago, her son Simon did the same.
0:45:28 > 0:45:32Today is going to be me facing my worst fears really -
0:45:32 > 0:45:34so it's going to be a tricky one, I think.
0:45:41 > 0:45:45That was Simon when he was probably about three or four there,
0:45:45 > 0:45:48in the snow with his rabbit, bless him.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52That was on holiday in Cornwall with Katie.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55And that was graduation day.
0:45:55 > 0:46:00We just asked someone if they'd take a photograph, that was 2001,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03- so it was six years later, almost to the day, that he died.- Yeah.
0:46:05 > 0:46:06Wow.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10You lost your husband Rod, he took his own life...
0:46:10 > 0:46:12- In 1990.- In 1990.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15It was very, very hard when he died,
0:46:15 > 0:46:19I was left with two small children - an eight-year-old and
0:46:19 > 0:46:20a ten-year-old.
0:46:20 > 0:46:25Simon asked me a lot of questions about how Rod died, but those were
0:46:25 > 0:46:29questions he asked me a lot when he was much older, I'd say when
0:46:29 > 0:46:31he was in probably his early 20s,
0:46:31 > 0:46:34er, and I've regretted at times actually telling him
0:46:34 > 0:46:36because, you know, he said, "How did Dad die, Mum?"
0:46:36 > 0:46:40and obviously Rod hung himself, and I think, "Was I too open?"
0:46:40 > 0:46:44You know, but, as a parent I've always been honest with them
0:46:44 > 0:46:46and open in that way.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50He went down to London, he wanted to go into finance,
0:46:50 > 0:46:54er, and then his troubles began, really.
0:46:54 > 0:47:00He'd ring me virtually every day, he'd got anxiety, er,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03and stress with the job, and he started to become ill.
0:47:03 > 0:47:08But anyway, he came home and even though he was so ill
0:47:08 > 0:47:11we had six amazing months, really.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14And I'm grateful that I had those six months with him.
0:47:18 > 0:47:23The day that Simon died, I came home, I walked in the house
0:47:23 > 0:47:26and, er, his boots were by the door,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28and I sort of...
0:47:28 > 0:47:31The landing light, the light was on at the bottom of the stairs
0:47:31 > 0:47:35and I just...he was there hanged at the top of the stairs.
0:47:37 > 0:47:38Er...
0:47:41 > 0:47:43I just went absolutely hysterical.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47And I remember holding him, it was just horrendous.
0:47:47 > 0:47:49Absolutely horrendous.
0:47:49 > 0:47:53I mean, for me listening to you now it's, er...
0:47:55 > 0:48:00I knew today was going to be difficult, because...
0:48:00 > 0:48:01- Are you all right?- Mmm, yeah.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07My worst fear is that, you know,
0:48:07 > 0:48:11one of the boys would... do the same thing.
0:48:11 > 0:48:13It really is my worst fear.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19You can't go through the rest of your life thinking that...
0:48:19 > 0:48:23My circumstances aren't necessarily going to become your circumstances.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26- I mean, there's no guarantees, is there?- No.
0:48:26 > 0:48:29But if you keep talking to them and...
0:48:29 > 0:48:32I think that's the thing really, you know, you do, you keep having
0:48:32 > 0:48:36the conversations, don't you? And you keep kind of, you keep
0:48:36 > 0:48:38the lines of communication open.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40Yeah.
0:48:40 > 0:48:44- And so, where are you at now? - Where am I at now?- Yeah.
0:48:44 > 0:48:46I'm at acceptance with it.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49I don't want to accept it, but I can't change it.
0:48:49 > 0:48:53And I think when I got to about two and half years
0:48:53 > 0:48:57after Simon's death, I reached... I used to go to his grave every day,
0:48:57 > 0:49:02but then I got to a stage when I was thinking about moving to
0:49:02 > 0:49:07Norfolk and I just thought, "You can't continue like this, you've got to change,"
0:49:07 > 0:49:10- and Norfolk's been a turning point for me.- Really?
0:49:10 > 0:49:12I love it down here.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25'Since moving to the Norfolk coast,
0:49:25 > 0:49:28'Jacqui has started a new career and set up a support group
0:49:28 > 0:49:32'for others who've lost people they love to suicide.'
0:49:34 > 0:49:37What did you hope to gain by moving here, Jacqui?
0:49:37 > 0:49:39Peace of mind, I think.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42Time for myself, some reflection time,
0:49:42 > 0:49:48it's been a turning point, really. I love the place, I'm home now.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50- Really?- Yeah.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53I mean, it's so beautiful here, I can definitely see why.
0:49:53 > 0:49:56Life isn't wonderful all the time, is it?
0:49:56 > 0:50:00Nobody's is, but everything since I've been here has gone right.
0:50:00 > 0:50:04- For me personally, it's been a healer, really.- Yeah.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13I knew today was going to be really difficult.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17Once Jackie started to talk about Simon, you know, losing her son,
0:50:17 > 0:50:19I knew it was going to be emotional,
0:50:19 > 0:50:22but, er, I think that...yeah,
0:50:22 > 0:50:27I kind of hadn't realised what an impact that was actually going to have on me.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43Before going home to my boys, there's someone I'm keen
0:50:43 > 0:50:45to catch up with.
0:50:45 > 0:50:47I've been thinking a lot about Rebecca,
0:50:47 > 0:50:50who I met at the Liverpool support group.
0:50:52 > 0:50:56'It's only ten weeks since her husband Andy died.'
0:50:58 > 0:51:00- It's really nice to see you again. - And you.
0:51:00 > 0:51:05'After any suspected suicide there has to be a public inquest
0:51:05 > 0:51:08'and the one into Andy's death took place yesterday,
0:51:08 > 0:51:10'just before Christmas.'
0:51:10 > 0:51:14That's in, er, Turkey, just before he died, actually -
0:51:14 > 0:51:15about a month before.
0:51:17 > 0:51:21And then that's one of us at a charity ball a few years ago.
0:51:21 > 0:51:25- You look amazing!- Oh, well, yeah. - Absolutely amazing.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27Have the hair done.
0:51:27 > 0:51:29- That's the one with sugar, yeah? - Yeah.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34It's so lovely to see you again,
0:51:34 > 0:51:37after I met you in the support group.
0:51:37 > 0:51:41And yesterday was the inquest, a particularly difficult day.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43I was a little bit disappointed that, er,
0:51:43 > 0:51:46- it went ahead with it only being three days before Christmas.- Yeah.
0:51:46 > 0:51:50I asked if it would be postponed because the children are on holiday
0:51:50 > 0:51:53from school. I mean, they're not little, but even so,
0:51:53 > 0:51:54you have to consider them, don't you?
0:51:54 > 0:51:58- Yeah. And did it last for a long time, the session?- No.
0:51:58 > 0:52:03- How long were you... - Gosh, it must've only been about 30 minutes, if that.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06It just felt as though we were dealing with, I don't know,
0:52:06 > 0:52:10a parking ticket or a shoplifting offence or something.
0:52:10 > 0:52:13And I don't agree with it being open to the public, either.
0:52:13 > 0:52:18I can't understand why. He wasn't a criminal, he'd done nothing wrong,
0:52:18 > 0:52:23you know, he hadn't hurt anybody else, but, yes, it's such a private
0:52:23 > 0:52:26thing that becomes so public, and you have no control over.
0:52:26 > 0:52:27Yeah, that's right.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30So, did they go through the events of the day?
0:52:30 > 0:52:33They went through, obviously, the date and the time he was found,
0:52:33 > 0:52:35who found him, who identified him,
0:52:35 > 0:52:37and then they went into the cause of death,
0:52:37 > 0:52:42but they went...and that really upset me because I burst into tears
0:52:42 > 0:52:45because they went into detail about the rope around his neck.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48Apparently he died very quickly.
0:52:48 > 0:52:51I was comforted in a little way that he died quickly,
0:52:51 > 0:52:55- but I don't think I needed to know the full details.- Mm.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58And then the verdict was, er, suicide.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00That my husband was depressed.
0:53:00 > 0:53:03- OK.- And that was it, basically.
0:53:05 > 0:53:09He honestly didn't realise all the impact of what he did.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12And the after effects. And he wouldn't have wanted to leave me,
0:53:12 > 0:53:15- I don't think, with all of this to deal with.- No.
0:53:15 > 0:53:17But he has.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20He was in a dark place and, you know, couldn't take any more.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23How did you feel, did you feel let down?
0:53:23 > 0:53:26I feel a bit angry and let down. Yeah, I do.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28He's died and I'm now left
0:53:28 > 0:53:31with a lot of things he couldn't cope with,
0:53:31 > 0:53:35on my own, so, yes, he's out of pain
0:53:35 > 0:53:37- but my pain's started now.- Mm.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41Yeah.
0:53:42 > 0:53:43It's hard.
0:53:43 > 0:53:46Yeah, it really, really is.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49Yeah.
0:53:49 > 0:53:50Sorry.
0:53:50 > 0:53:51No, it's all right.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55And how do the boys grow up, you know?
0:53:55 > 0:53:58How do they form relationships? That worries me, as well.
0:54:01 > 0:54:04You know, always say that things happen in a child's life
0:54:04 > 0:54:07affect them when they get older, don't they?
0:54:07 > 0:54:10And that's what worries me. When they grow up.
0:54:11 > 0:54:14I think that is, for me, you've kind of just hit
0:54:14 > 0:54:18the nail on the head, really. For me, that is the most difficult part
0:54:18 > 0:54:23of the legacy of this, really, is we share the same fear.
0:54:23 > 0:54:27You know, er, I mean, I have to say, Rebecca,
0:54:27 > 0:54:32you strike me as somebody who is just incredibly strong,
0:54:32 > 0:54:36I mean, the fact that we're sitting here having a conversation today
0:54:36 > 0:54:41and it's the day after the inquest, and it's only ten weeks since...
0:54:41 > 0:54:43since you lost your husband.
0:54:43 > 0:54:47My GP wants me to go in on the 5th of January with a five-year plan.
0:54:49 > 0:54:53I don't quite know what my five-year plan's going to be, cos I can't
0:54:53 > 0:54:56think about what my next five-minute plan is, never mind five years.
0:54:56 > 0:54:59- A five-year... A five-year plan? - A five-year plan.
0:54:59 > 0:55:02Oh, God, I don't think I could even do that now,
0:55:02 > 0:55:05- let alone three months after Mark died.- I know.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17I've made it home to Birkenhead for Christmas
0:55:17 > 0:55:20and while I'm still convinced that honesty
0:55:20 > 0:55:23and openness are the best way to deal with losing someone you love
0:55:23 > 0:55:27to suicide, when it comes to your own kids, you never stop worrying.
0:55:29 > 0:55:33I've been speaking to lots of different people,
0:55:33 > 0:55:38and some of it's been quite upsetting, and it kind of just
0:55:38 > 0:55:41got me thinking about whether the fact that we'd always been really
0:55:41 > 0:55:45honest with each other and we'd always been able to talk about it,
0:55:45 > 0:55:48well, whether you felt, actually, we had always been able to talk
0:55:48 > 0:55:50- about it...- We have, I think.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53- Mm.- But, yeah, on the...
0:55:53 > 0:55:57On the whole, I think I've come to terms with it quite well.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00Yeah. Do you think you'll always have questions?
0:56:00 > 0:56:04No, I think I've asked all my questions, but again,
0:56:04 > 0:56:09- I will ask the same questions, because I forget the answers.- Yeah.
0:56:09 > 0:56:13You know what worries me about the way that Dad died,
0:56:13 > 0:56:20and it worries me that if you were ever feeling,
0:56:20 > 0:56:22you know, you kind of were struggling with anything
0:56:22 > 0:56:24and I always say to you, don't I,
0:56:24 > 0:56:28- that...- I can talk to you about it.- Yeah.
0:56:28 > 0:56:31Do you think that because of what we've been through,
0:56:31 > 0:56:35- you will always be able to talk to me about things?- Yeah.
0:56:35 > 0:56:37I would always tell you, of course,
0:56:37 > 0:56:41before I actually felt the need to do something.
0:56:41 > 0:56:42- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:56:44 > 0:56:48So do you think that we're OK?
0:56:48 > 0:56:51- Yeah.- Do you think I did the right thing by telling you?
0:56:51 > 0:56:53- Absolutely.- Yeah?- Positively.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55- Thank you.- You're welcome.
0:57:00 > 0:57:04'We're not having Sunday lunch this week because it's Christmas,
0:57:04 > 0:57:07'but my mum's organised a Christmas Eve tea.'
0:57:07 > 0:57:12We've got some of Mrs Bishton's delightful caramel cupcakes.
0:57:13 > 0:57:17'And, as usual, there's enough to feed an army.'
0:57:17 > 0:57:22Ham, cranberry and stuffing on them, plain ham, ham and tomato
0:57:22 > 0:57:23and some plain turkey.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28'Mark's death was the worst thing that's ever happened to us
0:57:28 > 0:57:29'as a family,
0:57:29 > 0:57:34'but 11 years on, like Benjamin, I think we're doing OK.'
0:57:35 > 0:57:38- Alexis, are you still working on Christmas Day?- Yeah.- Aw!
0:57:40 > 0:57:43'You don't ever get over losing someone to suicide.
0:57:43 > 0:57:48'But if you can talk about it, then one day you can be happy again.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53'More than anything, that's what I've learnt.'