0:00:25 > 0:00:28I was born in Zwickau, which is in Eastern Germany.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30There's quite a big mountain range
0:00:30 > 0:00:32which separates Germany from the Czech Republic,
0:00:32 > 0:00:36and these are called the Erzgebirge, the Copper Mountains.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39My father took us all over the mountains,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42leaving everything behind, and went to Prague.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Hitler marched into Prague in March, 1939.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48My father realised he's on a wanted list,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51so he left my mother and went to Poland.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54It was extremely difficult for my mother
0:00:54 > 0:00:57to be left alone with two small children.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Street by street, Jews were cleared,
0:01:00 > 0:01:04and any moment, it was probably our turn.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08My mother, she must have had a will of iron, and great courage.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12She went from one embassy to another, queued up all night.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14And, if she ever got to the desk,
0:01:14 > 0:01:17they said to her, "We will take you,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20"but we can't take your two children."
0:01:20 > 0:01:24My mother wouldn't separate us, so she hung on to us.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26The only thing she could think of
0:01:26 > 0:01:29was to hope somebody would take her and the children.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32She was rejected by everyone.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36But then, the miracle happened.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38A knock on the door meant death,
0:01:38 > 0:01:41because it meant deportation.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45But for us, a knock on the door was the beginning of a new life.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49We opened the door to a woman from the British Embassy,
0:01:49 > 0:01:52who had braved the curfew.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55She brought the entry visa to Britain,
0:01:55 > 0:01:59train tickets to get through Germany, through Holland,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02and a ferry to Ramsgate,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05but she did not have an exit visa.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07You were supposed to have an exit visa to cross borders.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11And she said, "You'll just have to say you're going to see family
0:02:11 > 0:02:14"in Holland, and take nothing with you that could possibly
0:02:14 > 0:02:17"show anyone that you're going for more than a day."
0:02:17 > 0:02:20We made it through Czechoslovakia without any problem,
0:02:20 > 0:02:22and we got on the train in Germany.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26Sat down, thinking, "Good, we've got a carriage to ourselves,"
0:02:26 > 0:02:32when an SS officer came and sat next to her.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34He was trying to chat her up.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37And he realised what was going on, and he couldn't help us.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42But the fact that he sat there, now that might have been her salvation.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47Off we went, to the Hook of Holland, and got on a ferry to Ramsgate.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51On the ferry, I kept saying, "When are we going to be in England?"
0:02:51 > 0:02:53My mother got really fed up of me,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57she said, "When it starts raining, you'll know you're in England."
0:02:57 > 0:03:02So, as I was on the train, it began raining,
0:03:02 > 0:03:07and I must have been the only person there who was just totally thrilled,
0:03:07 > 0:03:11because I knew I was in England.
0:03:11 > 0:03:17The next morning was Sunday, September 3rd, 1939.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21As we arrived into Liverpool Street Station,
0:03:21 > 0:03:23I put my foot on the platform,
0:03:23 > 0:03:28suddenly, everything went quiet and there was a huge announcement
0:03:28 > 0:03:32on the loudspeaker, and everybody stood perfectly still.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36The announcement was Chamberlain saying...
0:03:36 > 0:03:42"I am speaking to you from the Cabinet Room at 10 Downing Street.
0:03:42 > 0:03:47"This morning, the British Ambassador in Berlin
0:03:47 > 0:03:51"handed the German Government a final note,
0:03:51 > 0:03:57"stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock,
0:03:57 > 0:04:02"that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland,
0:04:02 > 0:04:06"a state of war would exist between us.
0:04:08 > 0:04:13"I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received,
0:04:13 > 0:04:19"and that consequently, this country is at war with Germany."
0:04:21 > 0:04:25That was 11 o'clock, 3rd September, 1939,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28as my foot hit the platform.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31And that was the beginning of the Second World War.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42I was 12 when the war finished.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47And, although I was only 12, I was very mature,
0:05:47 > 0:05:49very mature as a child.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53My parents didn't talk a lot about what was going on during the war,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55but I had, I knew...
0:05:55 > 0:05:58I'd known sufficiently that things were quite bad.
0:05:58 > 0:06:02At the end of the war, of course, they started searching...
0:06:02 > 0:06:05The search was out to see if any of our extended,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08our family and extended families, were still alive.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12My mother's family had been, possibly still were,
0:06:12 > 0:06:14as far as they were concerned,
0:06:14 > 0:06:18in Romania, the Bukovina, which is Northern Romania.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23And my father's family had been deported to Poland.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26So they're in different parts of Europe,
0:06:26 > 0:06:30and the search was to see if we could find anyone.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33The liberation of Belsen had been put on general release
0:06:33 > 0:06:36in every cinema and people were asked to go and see that.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38Of course, I went -
0:06:38 > 0:06:41there was no question of me being too young to see that sort of thing.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45I was totally and absolutely horrified,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47as everyone was, watching it.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51And I just felt terribly emotionally disturbed,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54and the feeling was overwhelming.
0:06:54 > 0:07:00I just couldn't believe that these sort of things had happened,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03and that my family had disappeared in that terrible way.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08I have never got over
0:07:08 > 0:07:11what I have learned about the Holocaust,
0:07:11 > 0:07:13and what I've read.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15I mean, if you look around this house,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17you'll see I've got a huge section in the next room
0:07:17 > 0:07:20of Holocaust literature, people who have written about the Holocaust.
0:07:20 > 0:07:27Every thing that I do, I believe has an element that relates to it.
0:07:27 > 0:07:32Not voluntarily, it's something I can't help myself.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35For example, if I'm peeling potatoes,
0:07:35 > 0:07:37as I throw the potato peel away,
0:07:37 > 0:07:42I think about the girls in Auschwitz who looked for a bit of potato peel
0:07:42 > 0:07:44because they were starving.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Another thing that's been left with me,
0:07:47 > 0:07:50and my children and grandchildren always laugh about it,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53I'm terrified of being without food.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56In my car, I always have something to eat.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Now, I don't eat a great deal myself,
0:07:59 > 0:08:03but feel I always have water and I always have something to eat.
0:08:03 > 0:08:08That is definitely a throwback to the fear of hunger.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11I think it's important to tell the story,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14but I think it's how you tell it that's very important.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17It's not a matter of giving kids a horror story,
0:08:17 > 0:08:18because they see enough horror -
0:08:18 > 0:08:22just switch the television on, or internet, or plays, I don't know -
0:08:22 > 0:08:24you go and see films that are really horrible.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26I don't think it's the horror,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30I think it's the fact that, to make them understand,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34that it wasn't someone from out of space that did this,
0:08:34 > 0:08:40that doesn't happen, actually the horror is that someone so normal
0:08:40 > 0:08:44and so ordinary can do it to someone who looks exactly like they do.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47I think that isn't emphasised enough
0:08:47 > 0:08:50when people tell the story of the Holocaust.
0:08:50 > 0:08:55That people... Their next-door neighbours did this,
0:08:55 > 0:08:57or encouraged it,
0:08:57 > 0:09:01or stood silently by whilst all this happened.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04It wasn't necessarily strangers,
0:09:04 > 0:09:08and people with big boots on that did it.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12It's the fact that ordinary people stood by and allowed it to happen.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28In 1938 when I was eight years old,
0:09:28 > 0:09:33there occurred what has become known as the Polenaktion.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36Early in the morning, we were all sleeping in our beds.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39The Nazis entered our flat.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42We were going to be taken away.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44We were put on board a train.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50We came to realise that we were all Polish Jews.
0:09:51 > 0:09:52We were luckier than some.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55We had been taken as an entire family.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59Some of the people had been separated, they didn't know
0:09:59 > 0:10:03whether they would ever see one another again.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07To make matters worse, there were people of all ages.
0:10:07 > 0:10:12Babies, there were very old people, people who were ill,
0:10:12 > 0:10:15some had been taken out of hospital beds.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Travelled for the rest of the day and, after it got dark,
0:10:21 > 0:10:25the train stopped and we were told to get off.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30Outside the station, there were two rows of SS men.
0:10:30 > 0:10:31We were marched off.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35And the rumour went round that we were being taken to some
0:10:35 > 0:10:39remote place where we would all be shot.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43I did see people collapse through exhaustion,
0:10:43 > 0:10:48and I was left in no doubt about the brutality of these SS men.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51We marched for some hours.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54And then we were stopped at a railway line,
0:10:54 > 0:10:59and we were told that the SS men were not coming any further.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05It seems likely that this was, in fact, the Polish frontier.
0:11:05 > 0:11:09The SS men wouldn't want to cross that at this particular stage -
0:11:09 > 0:11:12that could provoke an international incident.
0:11:13 > 0:11:18We were told that we would have to go on marching between the rails,
0:11:18 > 0:11:22because on either side there were ditches, and anybody who fell
0:11:22 > 0:11:27risked injury not only from the fall, but also being trampled.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32Eventually, soldiers and police came and took us prisoner.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38What the Poles were trying to do was to force us back into Germany.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40The German authorities were ready for that
0:11:40 > 0:11:42and attempts to send us back failed.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48We managed to get to Krakow, where we had some relations,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51and we arrived on their doorstep.
0:11:52 > 0:11:57Round about the time that we went to Poland, Britain allowed children
0:11:57 > 0:12:02to be brought over, in what came to be known as the Kindertransport.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07I was very lucky to be one of the few to be rescued from Poland.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12I would have died with all the rest of my family if I hadn't been.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16I went to foster parents in Coventry.
0:12:17 > 0:12:22In the autumn of 1940, the so-called Blitz began.
0:12:22 > 0:12:27Coventry was one of the most severely bombed cities.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31We had 17 raids when a few bombs were dropped on the city.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35And then, one night, we had a very big raid.
0:12:35 > 0:12:40Now, Home Office advice was that if you hadn't got an air-raid shelter,
0:12:40 > 0:12:44the safest part of the house was under the stairs.
0:12:44 > 0:12:48Under our stairs, we had a small pantry.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51So we all crowded into that - foster parents,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54my sister and I, and the dog.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57He was very vicious, he bit quite a few people.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01We tried to keep our distance, but whenever a bomb came very near,
0:13:01 > 0:13:08the dog growled and we were really afraid, all of us.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11We heard a very loud hissing sound
0:13:11 > 0:13:13and it was obvious the bomb was coming near.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15It landed just a few doors down.
0:13:17 > 0:13:22The next morning, when we emerged, the house had lost its doors,
0:13:22 > 0:13:26and its windows, and part of the roof.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30It's amazing that there were many small air-raids,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33and, generally speaking, people took them in their stride.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35But during these big air-raids,
0:13:35 > 0:13:41I certainly felt very much afraid, and I don't think very many people
0:13:41 > 0:13:44if they are truthful could say otherwise.
0:14:36 > 0:14:42Germany was a very, very advanced country.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45It's produced some of the world's finest musicians,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48some of the world's finest writers.
0:14:48 > 0:14:56It had made advances in human civilisation in all its spheres
0:14:56 > 0:15:01and so it is utterly amazing that a country which was
0:15:01 > 0:15:08so advanced should suddenly descend to barbarities, which really...
0:15:09 > 0:15:14..bear comparison with what was happening in the Middle Ages.
0:15:14 > 0:15:19Though the barbarities of the Middle Ages were terrible,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23they weren't done on an industrial scale
0:15:23 > 0:15:25in the way in which the Nazis did them.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31Now, if you ask me why, the answer is, I think, that nobody knows.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36This is something that one would have thought was impossible.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40And, of course, it serves as a warning to us,
0:15:40 > 0:15:47that even a country that can achieve so much in the advancement
0:15:47 > 0:15:53of human civilisation can suddenly revert to barbarities that
0:15:53 > 0:15:56we shouldn't have thought possible.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01My feelings towards the Germans then
0:16:01 > 0:16:05were very different from my feelings towards the Germans now.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09People sometimes ask me, "Do you resent the Germans?"
0:16:09 > 0:16:13I say to them, if you go to Germany today,
0:16:13 > 0:16:17the vast majority of Germans whom you meet had not been born then.
0:16:17 > 0:16:23A few very old people had been born, but were children,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26and, as children, many of them
0:16:26 > 0:16:30will not have understood what was happening, and even those who did
0:16:30 > 0:16:34understand it wouldn't have been in a position to do anything about it.
0:16:34 > 0:16:41So I would consider it very wrong to be resentful to people like that.
0:16:41 > 0:16:47But that, of course, was not the case then. In those days,
0:16:47 > 0:16:53the majority of Germans had lived through those periods.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57There were some, of course, who were simply caught up in events,
0:16:57 > 0:17:02but I knew from my own experiences in Germany, that there were
0:17:02 > 0:17:07many who had enthusiastically followed the Nazi cause.
0:17:07 > 0:17:13And I must say that I was resentful to them,
0:17:13 > 0:17:19whilst realising that there were a small number
0:17:19 > 0:17:24who had at least mentally opposed,
0:17:24 > 0:17:27even if they couldn't do anything about it.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34There are some people who think, quite wrongly, that the study
0:17:34 > 0:17:36of history is a waste of time,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39that one should study things more to do with the present age
0:17:39 > 0:17:42rather than study a bygone age.
0:17:42 > 0:17:48I don't agree with that at all, because, first of all,
0:17:48 > 0:17:53the only way we can understand the present is by finding out
0:17:53 > 0:17:57how it came into being, as a result of the past.
0:17:57 > 0:18:02But at least as importantly, and perhaps even more so,
0:18:02 > 0:18:06is those who don't study history are destined to repeat it.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12And things which can happen once can happen a second time.
0:18:12 > 0:18:18One must study the conditions which led up to them,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21and try to avoid the...
0:18:22 > 0:18:26..the repetition of these dreadful things.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45Back in my school days, around 1938,
0:18:45 > 0:18:50I have a wonderful photograph, a class photograph, of all of us here.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53It's something which is a great pleasure to look at,
0:18:53 > 0:18:55but also extremely sad
0:18:55 > 0:19:00because, unfortunately, the Germans killed many, many children.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03One and a half million innocent children were killed
0:19:03 > 0:19:04during the Holocaust.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08Why should innocent people, just because they were Jewish,
0:19:08 > 0:19:11be killed for no reason at all?
0:19:11 > 0:19:15And I look at these faces, I don't know who survived and who didn't.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18I only know that I survived.
0:19:19 > 0:19:21We had this radio in our dining room,
0:19:21 > 0:19:24and Father was often listening,
0:19:24 > 0:19:27but when he had the news on, you could hear this shouting...
0:19:27 > 0:19:28HITLER MAKING SPEECH
0:19:28 > 0:19:32..and that, of course, was the typical Hitler speech-making.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35Everybody was aware of this knock at the door
0:19:35 > 0:19:38and it always came during the night, when they came to take
0:19:38 > 0:19:41away people, either to take them to prison or to beat them up,
0:19:41 > 0:19:45or whatever, and that fear was there all the time I was at home.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49You feel insecure, you don't feel at ease.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53You can't relax and you know that something is wrong.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Germans didn't come into Czechoslovakia
0:19:57 > 0:20:00until 15th March, 1939.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04And I realised that my parents were wanting
0:20:04 > 0:20:07to get the children away to safety.
0:20:07 > 0:20:13And my turn came, I left home on 28th March, 1939.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16The only thing I really remember is getting into a taxi.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22I remember my mother and father and my brother standing near me.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25But I cannot remember saying goodbye to them,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28I can't remember whether I hugged them, kissed them, whether I cried.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31I have absolutely no recollection whatsoever.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35We were travelling by train, through to London.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38But I end up in Wallsend on Tyne,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42where a very kind family had offered to give me a home.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48I start getting homesick and I start feeling very, very poorly.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51Because, A, I was missing my parents,
0:20:51 > 0:20:54B, I didn't speak one word of English.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57The food was totally different.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01I'd never eaten toast, porridge, kippers, marmalade,
0:21:01 > 0:21:03all these normal English things.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07And I just basically cried for as long as I stayed with them.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12From the age of nine, in those four years, in those war years,
0:21:12 > 0:21:15I lived with so many different people.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17I mean, I would think I must have been at least
0:21:17 > 0:21:19through 15 to 20 different places.
0:21:22 > 0:21:29I never saw my parents after 28th March, 1939.
0:21:30 > 0:21:37Father, he was transported on 19th of April, 1942,
0:21:37 > 0:21:41and he was already dead by 8th May.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45My mother is a different story altogether.
0:21:45 > 0:21:50The last proper evidence I have that she was alive
0:21:50 > 0:21:54was when she was transported to a small concentration,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57transportation camp, near Bratislava, called Sered.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01And I've been working for years and years to try and trace her.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06And I am almost at the end of the trail.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09I received some evidence from a testimony
0:22:09 > 0:22:11given by somebody in 1962,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14who could have been on the same transport
0:22:14 > 0:22:17that my mother was taken on,
0:22:17 > 0:22:22and on a death march on which she would have been shot and killed.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27The impact on me is something which has never left me.
0:22:27 > 0:22:33Every single day, I rue the destruction of my family.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37To me, family is the most important building brick for human beings
0:22:37 > 0:22:40and that's why I find it so hard today.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36Well, after liberation, I still had two years of school
0:23:36 > 0:23:37and I was in Surrey,
0:23:37 > 0:23:40but, of course, at that stage I was trying to see
0:23:40 > 0:23:42if my parents were still alive.
0:23:42 > 0:23:48And at one part, very early on, we had a letter from a variety
0:23:48 > 0:23:52of friends who'd been in Czechoslovakia during the war,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55and they thought my father was still alive.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Unfortunately, that turned out to be a false hope.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01Mother, we had no...anything on.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05Anyway, like with everything else, you get on with life,
0:24:05 > 0:24:07you keep on looking, but you get on with things.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11So, the first two years after the end of the war
0:24:11 > 0:24:15I was still at school and then by 1947
0:24:15 > 0:24:20I'd got a county major scholarship from Surrey and I came up
0:24:20 > 0:24:24to university here in Leeds and have been in Yorkshire ever since.
0:24:26 > 0:24:31I think the biggest impact on me is the fact that I've learned to
0:24:31 > 0:24:34stand on my own two feet and fight my own battles.
0:24:36 > 0:24:37I was brought up,
0:24:37 > 0:24:40even as a young child, in a household
0:24:40 > 0:24:43where education was prized, and...
0:24:45 > 0:24:48..all of us, I think, wanted to aspire to
0:24:48 > 0:24:51a good education and do things.
0:24:51 > 0:24:54I am actually the least qualified member of my siblings.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58Obviously, my first nine years at home must have had
0:24:58 > 0:25:01some effect on me, but the only ones that I can clearly remember
0:25:01 > 0:25:05are my four years with Kingsley School during the war,
0:25:05 > 0:25:08run by these four fantastic women.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10High morals, high standing,
0:25:10 > 0:25:13doing good for the sake of helping other people.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15This was ingrained into us
0:25:15 > 0:25:19and I think this has been my driving situation and, in fact,
0:25:19 > 0:25:22my kids always describe me as, "Mother, she has a mind
0:25:22 > 0:25:26"like a drawing pin, she's always upright," and this and the other.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28They always tease me.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33I have not reached what I had set out to do,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37but looking backwards now, it doesn't really make any odds.
0:25:37 > 0:25:39I've been basically lucky.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42I had a decent husband, I've got a family.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44Although, there's nobody here.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47And what can you expect?
0:25:47 > 0:25:50I consider, although many human beings like to think
0:25:50 > 0:25:53they're superior to animals, we are only an animal.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57We are basically robots. We can't control anything.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59We've just got to cope with what we've got.
0:26:01 > 0:26:06Initially, if you'd asked me when I was starting out to study
0:26:06 > 0:26:09I would have loved to have been in a sort of white ivory tower in
0:26:09 > 0:26:13some fantastic research laboratory, I could see myself as that.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15But that wasn't to be,
0:26:15 > 0:26:18and now for the last 20 years since I've retired
0:26:18 > 0:26:22and I've forgotten all my science and background,
0:26:22 > 0:26:24I feel striving possibly
0:26:24 > 0:26:29for the human condition is something which I have a large feeling for.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33I'm sure it has quite a lot to do with my history
0:26:33 > 0:26:36because I've no graves to go to, where are my parents,
0:26:36 > 0:26:40one God knows where, one in the ashes up in Auschwitz.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Therefore I also don't have a religious belief.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46I mean, one of the things which often comes into my mind,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48you know, if we have a terrible accident,
0:26:48 > 0:26:50everybody prays for these people.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53How many millions and millions and millions of prayers have been
0:26:53 > 0:26:57said since religion and superstition came in?
0:26:57 > 0:26:59And we're no better.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14I do remember the day the Nazis came to power.
0:27:14 > 0:27:18I was almost 13, and I remember looking down from our window.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23And Nazis always celebrated their successes by torchlight processions.
0:27:23 > 0:27:28And the Nazis marched past and sang songs, bloodthirsty songs.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33The Nuremberg Laws which came in, in the autumn of '35,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36legalised anti-Jewish measures.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40We were no longer allowed to go to cinemas and theatres
0:27:40 > 0:27:42and be members of clubs.
0:27:43 > 0:27:44As a child, of any age,
0:27:44 > 0:27:49to be excluded from your peers is a blow. You feel inferior.
0:27:49 > 0:27:51And you question your existence.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57There were three Jewish boys, including me, left in the class.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00The main Hitler Youth leader came and said,
0:28:00 > 0:28:03"It's time you left the school, we don't want you here."
0:28:03 > 0:28:05I left school at 16.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08If it hadn't been for the Nazis, I probably would have gone
0:28:08 > 0:28:10to university, but we could no longer do that,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13because universities were no longer accepting Jews.
0:28:13 > 0:28:19At the age of 18, I went to Hamburg, to college, to learn English.
0:28:19 > 0:28:23In the evenings, we got together, and we heard the news,
0:28:23 > 0:28:25and we knew something was going to happen.
0:28:25 > 0:28:29In Nuremberg, my parents were arrested,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32kept standing in the square in the centre of the town
0:28:32 > 0:28:33for about two hours.
0:28:33 > 0:28:37Were abused, spat upon. The synagogue was set on fire.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41The women, the older people and the children were sent home.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44When my mother got home, about four o'clock in the morning,
0:28:44 > 0:28:46she rang where I was staying.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49She said, "Father's gone away,"
0:28:49 > 0:28:52which was code for, "He's been arrested.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54"Get dressed. Go for a walk."
0:28:56 > 0:28:59So that's what I did. I sat on park benches.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02Then I went round the department stores.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06I tried to make myself small, not to stand out.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11I could see the smoke from the burning synagogues everywhere.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14I could also see groups of Jewish people,
0:29:14 > 0:29:16being frogmarched through the streets.
0:29:18 > 0:29:19Windows were smashed.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24The Germans invented the term Kristallnacht,
0:29:24 > 0:29:26because of all the broken glass.
0:29:28 > 0:29:29Eventually, I went home.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33The landlady said, "The Gestapo's been for you."
0:29:33 > 0:29:36There's a good job that I did leave the digs,
0:29:36 > 0:29:38otherwise I would have been sent to a concentration camp.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42Father was arrested and then sent
0:29:42 > 0:29:45to Dachau concentration camp near Munich.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47He was there for five or six weeks.
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Most of the people were released just before Christmas '38.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55And he came home and he was a completely changed man.
0:29:57 > 0:30:02It was then quite obvious that there was no future for us in Germany.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05There was nowhere to go.
0:30:05 > 0:30:06No country wanted us.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10Frank, my brother, was in Leeds. He tried very hard
0:30:10 > 0:30:13to get me a trainee post and finally succeeded.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15And I came to Leeds.
0:30:15 > 0:30:19We managed to get visas for our parents and they came.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22Thank God, because, four days later, war broke out.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Well, the day war broke out,
0:30:25 > 0:30:28a policeman came asking us to come down
0:30:28 > 0:30:31and report to police headquarters.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33We were registered as enemy aliens.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35Cameras and binoculars were impounded,
0:30:35 > 0:30:38which were considered spying equipment.
0:30:39 > 0:30:42Churchill was by then just become Prime Minister.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45And his civil servants famously asked him,
0:30:45 > 0:30:48"What shall we do with these enemy aliens?"
0:30:48 > 0:30:51and Churchill's words were, "Collar the lot."
0:30:51 > 0:30:54So we were interned, Father, brother and me.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56Well, all of us felt a bit sore,
0:30:56 > 0:31:01because we were more opposed to the Nazis than the British natives were.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04We were kicked out there because we were Jewish.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06And we were interned here because we were German.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08We wanted to fight the Nazis
0:31:08 > 0:31:11and, instead, we were kept behind barbed wire.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13Survival is instinct, it's natural.
0:32:13 > 0:32:15Everybody has that.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19You try desperately to get out of Germany,
0:32:19 > 0:32:22which we eventually succeeded in.
0:32:23 > 0:32:27And, well, you know, you...
0:32:28 > 0:32:31..you are a survivor because you're there.
0:32:32 > 0:32:38Obviously, my contemporaries who committed these atrocities
0:32:38 > 0:32:40are dreadful.
0:32:40 > 0:32:47But I'm concerned that I sometimes think what I would have been
0:32:47 > 0:32:49if I hadn't have been Jewish.
0:32:49 > 0:32:53Would I have been a Nazi? And I probably would.
0:32:54 > 0:32:59You know, it's very difficult for a 12, 13, 14-year-old to resist
0:32:59 > 0:33:03the temptations the Nazis offered for kids of that age.
0:33:03 > 0:33:07Uniforms, campfires, learning to shoot rifles,
0:33:07 > 0:33:11things like that, as they did in the Hitler Youth.
0:33:11 > 0:33:16And it's very, very difficult for a kid of that age to resist
0:33:16 > 0:33:19that temptation, and not be part of the crowd.
0:33:20 > 0:33:26Well, I felt gratitude obviously to this country for allowing us in
0:33:26 > 0:33:31at a time when this country had economic problems before the war.
0:33:33 > 0:33:40And relief of being saved the fate that fell upon all those people
0:33:40 > 0:33:41who were left behind.
0:33:41 > 0:33:45So that was really the overwhelming feeling.
0:33:45 > 0:33:50We felt grateful, we applied for naturalisation,
0:33:50 > 0:33:53British citizenship,
0:33:53 > 0:33:58which had been suspended during the war, there were no naturalisations.
0:33:59 > 0:34:05And, in 1947, we were actually granted British citizenship
0:34:05 > 0:34:07and a passport.
0:34:08 > 0:34:15I found what I was aiming for in my wife,
0:34:15 > 0:34:19who also came from Germany - she was younger,
0:34:19 > 0:34:21she came on the Kindertransport...
0:34:22 > 0:34:27..she was a trainee nurse at the time and we fell in love,
0:34:27 > 0:34:33and we eventually got married immediately after VE Day,
0:34:33 > 0:34:35although it wasn't planned that way...
0:34:37 > 0:34:39..and...
0:34:41 > 0:34:45Well, that's how we started life together.
0:34:45 > 0:34:50We had two sons who were both successful in their own ambitions.
0:34:50 > 0:34:57And, career-wise, I managed to get a job eventually
0:34:57 > 0:35:00which was very fulfilling.
0:35:00 > 0:35:04And that was as Chief Executive of the Jewish Welfare Board
0:35:04 > 0:35:07and the Jewish Housing Association,
0:35:07 > 0:35:10the formation of which I was instrumental with...
0:35:12 > 0:35:17..which is now very flourishing. I mean, they've 400 properties.
0:35:18 > 0:35:22I think, on the whole, with a lot of effort,
0:35:22 > 0:35:27we managed to make a success of things, I think.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31I had a fairly good career and a good family life,
0:35:31 > 0:35:33and that's satisfying.
0:35:47 > 0:35:51I was 14. In the wagon was only a very small window.
0:35:51 > 0:35:53It was hot.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56We were so cramped, we couldn't even sit down.
0:35:56 > 0:35:59Some people had some water and some people didn't.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02After two days and one night,
0:36:02 > 0:36:07through the wagon I could see SS men with dogs, barbed wire,
0:36:07 > 0:36:09electric fences.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13We'd arrived in Birkenau, Auschwitz.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17And they said, "Men on one side.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19"Women and children on the other side."
0:36:19 > 0:36:22And we made two long queues.
0:36:23 > 0:36:27Mengele happened to be on the selection platform.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30He pointed the finger to the left or to the right.
0:36:30 > 0:36:32I noticed a lot of people
0:36:32 > 0:36:36who were chosen to go to the right were fitter men.
0:36:36 > 0:36:41To the left, children went, mothers with children, elderly men.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45And I knew that's not a good point.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48You know, if they don't need you, they kill you and that's it.
0:36:48 > 0:36:53Then, suddenly, they tried to take a child away from her mother,
0:36:53 > 0:36:57and she started screaming, and the SS men run towards her.
0:36:57 > 0:37:01As they run there, I decided to go over to the right.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03I was very lucky.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07All the people which went to the left-hand side
0:37:07 > 0:37:09went to the gas chambers.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12And they gassed them and then burned their bodies.
0:37:13 > 0:37:17We walked into a place called the sauna, a brick-built building
0:37:17 > 0:37:19in Birkenau,
0:37:19 > 0:37:24and we were told to leave all our clothing on the floor.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29I had six photographs of my family.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32And that's the last time I had a photograph of my family.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36I had my hair shaved off.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40And from there, we went into the next room and we had our uniforms.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42Striped suits.
0:37:42 > 0:37:46It was big on me, so I put it up.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48They didn't give us any bath or shower.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53They soon started getting problems with lice.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57Lice walked round all over us. Itchy, it was very itchy.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00They live on your skin.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02We were 1,000 men in a barrack.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06Three bunks high, ten people on a bunk.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09We slept on the boards.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12There was no straw, there was no covers.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16People snored, people moaned, people died next to you.
0:38:16 > 0:38:195:30 in the morning, they woke us up.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22And they allowed us to go to the washroom.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25In the washroom, there was about five buckets of water.
0:38:25 > 0:38:30And you just dipped your hands, washed your eyes and that was it.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36I was just skin and bones because they didn't feed us.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39They gave us a small piece of bread in the morning,
0:38:39 > 0:38:42with some black coffee made of burnt wheat.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45And lunchtime we got some watery soup
0:38:45 > 0:38:48with a few leaves swimming round, and that's it.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51Live on that for months and years,
0:38:51 > 0:38:54going on, you're just like a skeleton.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59Your mind can't think properly, your body is weak,
0:38:59 > 0:39:01and you're starving all the time.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05You think about food all the time.
0:39:05 > 0:39:07You can't help but think about it.
0:39:08 > 0:39:14In Auschwitz, I've been tattooed. I've got a number B7608,
0:39:14 > 0:39:17on my left hand.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19It's still there now. And I just can't take it off.
0:39:21 > 0:39:24I've lost 81 from my family.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27I've only found my sister, two years after the war.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30How could I say how it changed me?
0:39:30 > 0:39:35I'll never forget what I went through.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38I suffered so much.
0:39:38 > 0:39:44It was the most horrific thing any human being should ever see.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46The world should never see that again.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39I've lost 81 from my family.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42Everybody I had, I've lost.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45Brothers, sisters, my parents,
0:40:45 > 0:40:49and my cousins, my uncles, I've lost everybody.
0:40:51 > 0:40:56I've just found my sister - she escaped across into Russia.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59I found her two years after the war, through the Red Cross,
0:40:59 > 0:41:01my elder sister.
0:41:01 > 0:41:03I knew she'd got across into Russia,
0:41:03 > 0:41:06but she was the only one who survived.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09But she died about 20 years ago.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11She went to America,
0:41:11 > 0:41:14and she went over,
0:41:14 > 0:41:16and I went to her funeral,
0:41:16 > 0:41:18and that's it. That was it.
0:41:20 > 0:41:27I came over to this country with 260 boys and 40 girls
0:41:27 > 0:41:30to the Lake District in 1945.
0:41:32 > 0:41:34And...
0:41:34 > 0:41:37we were there for six months.
0:41:37 > 0:41:41And then, after that, we went to different cities
0:41:41 > 0:41:44and I went to Liverpool with 20 boys.
0:41:44 > 0:41:47Manchester took 30,
0:41:47 > 0:41:51London took about 120 and...
0:41:51 > 0:41:53Glasgow, and so on.
0:41:53 > 0:41:58And, erm, eventually we were distributed around the country.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01I was young.
0:42:02 > 0:42:0716, life is only just beginning, and so on.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12I tried everything to do what I could.
0:42:15 > 0:42:20I had difficulties going through the whole system
0:42:20 > 0:42:24of getting on my feet, and so on.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26It was very difficult without any parents,
0:42:26 > 0:42:32and no schooling, and this was a very low point for me.
0:42:34 > 0:42:39In 1995, I wrote my book, A Detail Of History,
0:42:39 > 0:42:40and...
0:42:42 > 0:42:45..then the two brothers from Beth Shalom,
0:42:45 > 0:42:49from the Holocaust Museum, came to ask me
0:42:49 > 0:42:54would I speak, would I go down and speak to children,
0:42:54 > 0:42:58to schoolchildren, and, eventually, I agreed...
0:43:00 > 0:43:03..and that's how I started talking about my life.
0:43:05 > 0:43:10I came to this country with nothing, and I've got a nice home,
0:43:10 > 0:43:15and I've done, basically, everything I wanted to do,
0:43:15 > 0:43:18and...and life goes on.
0:43:18 > 0:43:23I'm now 85 and I still look forward to my life,
0:43:23 > 0:43:25to carry on regardless.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29I'm going to Poland, on the Walk Of The Living.
0:43:31 > 0:43:32I was there last year.
0:43:32 > 0:43:3711,000 people were walking from Auschwitz 1 to Birkenau.
0:43:39 > 0:43:46And I took a bus load of young people, about 18 years old...
0:43:47 > 0:43:51..and I'm going to do the same this April.
0:43:53 > 0:43:57I will never forgive the older generation of Germans, never.
0:43:57 > 0:43:59I've nothing to those which were born after the war.
0:43:59 > 0:44:04But I will never, never forgive the Germans what they did to me
0:44:04 > 0:44:07and to other people. Never.
0:44:08 > 0:44:14I'm a very strong minded person, in myself. And...
0:44:17 > 0:44:20..if I want to do something, I usually do it.
0:44:20 > 0:44:26And I try everything I can to achieve certain things.
0:44:26 > 0:44:28Now I'm...
0:44:30 > 0:44:32..I'm relaxed, I'm...
0:44:33 > 0:44:35I'm actually retired.
0:44:35 > 0:44:41But I still carry on teaching young people, which is very,
0:44:41 > 0:44:43very important to me.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45I'll do it till the day...
0:44:47 > 0:44:49..somebody calls me to the other side.
0:45:02 > 0:45:07Ooh, my Paris was gorgeous. I lived in the 20th arrondissement.
0:45:09 > 0:45:12I loved Paris, being a little girl there was fun.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15We used to walk along the Seine and over the bridges.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19My mum used to buy me lovely ice cream.
0:45:19 > 0:45:22And she used to put me on a carousel ride.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25And the marionettes in the park!
0:45:25 > 0:45:27There was music always playing.
0:45:27 > 0:45:31And it was a lovely life. It was a cultured life.
0:45:32 > 0:45:36I remember going to a pre-school. I loved going there.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38But I didn't go there for very long.
0:45:38 > 0:45:42Slowly, slowly, my life changed.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45The first thing we couldn't do, we couldn't go out.
0:45:45 > 0:45:49You started to hear noises that you hadn't heard before.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52It was really scary sometimes.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55As I understand it now, we were occupied.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57And all the shouting
0:45:57 > 0:46:00and the carrying on you could hear outside were soldiers.
0:46:03 > 0:46:06The day it happened, it was August and it was hot.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09And I was with my father at the window.
0:46:09 > 0:46:11And suddenly he said, "They're here."
0:46:13 > 0:46:18And we went into the bedroom and my mum pushed me under the bed.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21You could hear all these boots on the stairs.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24And they banged on the... Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang!
0:46:24 > 0:46:27And we didn't answer the door. We stayed in the bedroom.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31And then they took an axe, and they came in,
0:46:31 > 0:46:33told us, "Raus!" Out!
0:46:33 > 0:46:36And they told my parents, "Pack a bag!"
0:46:36 > 0:46:39During all the commotion, Madame Collomb came in,
0:46:39 > 0:46:40she was our next-door neighbour.
0:46:40 > 0:46:44And she said, "What's my child doing in this apartment?"
0:46:44 > 0:46:47She took me by the hand, took me away.
0:46:47 > 0:46:49Had they realised what she was doing,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52we'd have all been shot on the spot, and she got away with it.
0:46:52 > 0:46:57She took me to her apartment and put me underneath her dining table,
0:46:57 > 0:46:59with a big chenille tablecloth over it,
0:46:59 > 0:47:02made me a little bed, and I lived there for two or three weeks.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05And it was dark, and it was solitary, and it was lonely,
0:47:05 > 0:47:07and I had nightmares there.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11I never saw my parents again after that.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14And I was a lost, totally lost child.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19After that, Madame Collomb took me out at night.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22And furtively, we had to go to catch a train.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26The first hiding place she took me to was Mondoubleau,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28which is south-west of Paris.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30I couldn't go to school, I couldn't go out on the street
0:47:30 > 0:47:33because there were German soldiers everywhere.
0:47:33 > 0:47:37They hid me in sort of a strange outhouse.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39Stayed there two years in hiding.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44Then I was taken to the Auvergne, to a farm in the middle of nowhere.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48There's no light, there's no water.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51You have to be self-sufficient.
0:47:51 > 0:47:52You grow up overnight.
0:47:54 > 0:47:58I slept occasionally inside the house, but then other times
0:47:58 > 0:48:02I went and slept with the goat, cos she'd had some kids.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04They were warm and they were friendly
0:48:04 > 0:48:07and snuffle against your cheek.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12During the day, I had to go out and work like a man.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16It's hard, in the winter, when it's frozen.
0:48:16 > 0:48:20My hands were blue and they were cracked, and bleeding, and sore,
0:48:20 > 0:48:22and my feet were in the same condition,
0:48:22 > 0:48:24because I didn't have shoes.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27I used to sit down and cry sometimes.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30But it didn't do any good so I stopped that.
0:48:30 > 0:48:31Nobody heard.
0:48:32 > 0:48:36Nobody ever said, "Oh, I'll explain what happened to you.
0:48:36 > 0:48:38"I will explain what war means.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40"I will explain what happened to your parents,
0:48:40 > 0:48:43"but you're never going to see them again.
0:48:43 > 0:48:45"I will explain that you are never going back
0:48:45 > 0:48:48"to your house in Paris, forget it, it's gone."
0:48:52 > 0:48:57The war finished in '45 and I was still in the Auvergne for two years.
0:48:57 > 0:48:59We didn't know, we hadn't been told.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02I didn't know the war was over, cos we didn't have newspapers,
0:49:02 > 0:49:05we didn't have a radio, we didn't have electricity.
0:49:05 > 0:49:06Nobody knew.
0:49:46 > 0:49:49My war really started when I came to Britain.
0:49:49 > 0:49:51I couldn't speak the language.
0:49:51 > 0:49:53I didn't know who I was. I was traumatised.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55Couldn't talk. Didn't want to talk.
0:49:55 > 0:49:57They thought I was dumb. I didn't speak.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01I came into England with the Red Cross,
0:50:01 > 0:50:04and put into a family in Newcastle.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09And I couldn't speak the language,
0:50:09 > 0:50:11and I couldn't communicate with anyone.
0:50:11 > 0:50:15I remember just crying for three nights.
0:50:15 > 0:50:18When I was growing up, I was about 17,
0:50:18 > 0:50:20I was going to go and join the Army
0:50:20 > 0:50:22and I was going to go over there and kill them all.
0:50:23 > 0:50:25That was my anger.
0:50:25 > 0:50:26I hated them.
0:50:26 > 0:50:28I couldn't bear to hear the German accent.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33And it made me very...
0:50:34 > 0:50:36..cautious.
0:50:36 > 0:50:41And never wanting to go anywhere near those countries or associate
0:50:41 > 0:50:46with anything that had to do with Germany for a long time.
0:50:46 > 0:50:49It was fear, anger...
0:50:52 > 0:50:54I can't express that enough.
0:50:54 > 0:50:58Fear, anger, um... Indignation.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02How dare they do this to human beings? How dare they?
0:51:02 > 0:51:04That's one of the biggest... You know, as I got older,
0:51:04 > 0:51:06not as a small girl - I didn't know the word -
0:51:06 > 0:51:10but as I got older, I felt such indignation.
0:51:10 > 0:51:13I know that the younger generations can't help
0:51:13 > 0:51:15what their grandfathers did,
0:51:15 > 0:51:17but I still feel very angry.
0:51:17 > 0:51:22It causes you to have post-traumatic stress, it does.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24You're shocked, you're in shock,
0:51:24 > 0:51:27and when you come to your new country, you're still in shock.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31Nobody says, "How are you?" They didn't say it then.
0:51:31 > 0:51:35"Do you feel... What do you feel? How are you feeling?
0:51:35 > 0:51:38"Are you very unhappy? Do you want to talk about it?"
0:51:38 > 0:51:42Instead of which they used to say to me, "Oh! Don't talk about it!
0:51:42 > 0:51:45"Forget about it!" Wrong.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48Talk about it. Bring it out in the open,
0:51:48 > 0:51:51because that way, that's where the healing starts.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53The healing begins when you talk about it,
0:51:53 > 0:51:55so people saying, "Oh, suppress it,"
0:51:55 > 0:51:59it makes you poorly, and then they say, "Oh, this child's always ill."
0:51:59 > 0:52:05I'm very, very, VERY grateful to Great Britain for letting me
0:52:05 > 0:52:10stay, for a start. I came with a visa, so I wasn't a citizen,
0:52:10 > 0:52:11and then I got my...
0:52:14 > 0:52:17Forgotten! Oh, British naturalisation, so this country,
0:52:17 > 0:52:20I have to say a big thank you, because they've helped me a lot.
0:52:20 > 0:52:22The country has helped me a lot.
0:52:22 > 0:52:26And the way that I felt
0:52:26 > 0:52:29when I first arrived in England wasn't that way
0:52:29 > 0:52:31because I wasn't aware, I was too young.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34I wasn't educated, I didn't go to school.
0:52:34 > 0:52:36So...
0:52:36 > 0:52:39it's been hard. You know...
0:52:39 > 0:52:41I've educated myself by reading books -
0:52:41 > 0:52:44that's where my knowledge came from -
0:52:44 > 0:52:46I ate, literally ate, books,
0:52:46 > 0:52:49and gained all the things that I knew,
0:52:49 > 0:52:53and the wonderful things about life and in the world.
0:52:53 > 0:53:00And then nature taught me a lot. It was nature first, books next.
0:53:00 > 0:53:03I look at my sons, I look at my grandchildren,
0:53:03 > 0:53:07I look at my great-grandson, and he's a fabulous little boy,
0:53:07 > 0:53:10and I'm just very happy about what I have achieved.
0:53:10 > 0:53:12And every day I say, "Thank you,"
0:53:12 > 0:53:15about 10,000 times a day. Thank you!
0:53:23 > 0:53:25I've read everything that I can lay my hands on,
0:53:25 > 0:53:31from literature, to poetry, to art, to people's testimony, and so on,
0:53:31 > 0:53:34and I can read them over and over again
0:53:34 > 0:53:38and I feel I must, I feel it's my duty
0:53:38 > 0:53:42to give them that because there's so many of them,
0:53:42 > 0:53:45so many of the six million Jews who died
0:53:45 > 0:53:48including 1.5 million children
0:53:48 > 0:53:52have no-one to follow them, families were completely wiped out.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55So the fact that I am here and my children
0:53:55 > 0:53:57and grandchildren are here,
0:53:57 > 0:53:59as survivors...
0:54:00 > 0:54:04..it is our duty to remember them
0:54:04 > 0:54:06so they should not go un...
0:54:06 > 0:54:09They're not unknown, that they've got to be remembered
0:54:09 > 0:54:12in some way or other, and it's our job to remember them
0:54:12 > 0:54:14and what they went through.
0:54:14 > 0:54:18Historically, if you talk about it to people,
0:54:18 > 0:54:23to groups, and so on, people learn, and if anything like that
0:54:23 > 0:54:29could come up again, they would stand up against it, and so on.
0:54:29 > 0:54:34So that's why, basically, I talk about it all the time.
0:54:34 > 0:54:39I know myself that I've done quite a bit, educated people,
0:54:39 > 0:54:43and so on, and young people, I've educated them.
0:54:43 > 0:54:48I told them the history, and so on, what I went through.
0:54:48 > 0:54:50And the suffering I did go through.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53And I never want to see that happen to them.
0:54:55 > 0:55:01One should try to keep all this in people's memory,
0:55:01 > 0:55:06not with a view to fermenting hatred or perpetuating hatred,
0:55:06 > 0:55:11but with a view to reminding people that we humans are not quite as good
0:55:11 > 0:55:14as we may think we are,
0:55:14 > 0:55:17and we can descend into these horrors
0:55:17 > 0:55:20if we don't take precautions.
0:55:22 > 0:55:24However much you can learn about history,
0:55:24 > 0:55:27and of course it is important to learn and to think you're not going
0:55:27 > 0:55:32to make the same mistakes again, the fact is we do, as human beings,
0:55:32 > 0:55:37as parents, we make mistakes that we promise ourselves we will never do.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40I think human beings can't help it,
0:55:40 > 0:55:44the frailty of the human being is such that we do repeat mistakes.
0:55:44 > 0:55:50But I think, whatever people say about young people today,
0:55:50 > 0:55:52I think they are more tolerant.
0:55:52 > 0:55:57So maybe there is hope. I think humanity is getting better.
0:55:59 > 0:56:01Hopefully, I'm right.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09I think people are not aware of other people's experiences
0:56:09 > 0:56:12and how it can be hurtful or how it can be good.
0:56:12 > 0:56:16The other story which I could tell you is the kindness of strangers.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19The number of people who have helped me
0:56:19 > 0:56:22till I was able to stand on my own feet is amazing.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28I believe that because they're going to keep
0:56:28 > 0:56:31the Holocaust Memorial Day in perpetuity, I hope,
0:56:31 > 0:56:35and that there are certain places like Yad Vashem
0:56:35 > 0:56:39and Beth Shalom who have a memorial to the Shoa,
0:56:39 > 0:56:40which is the Holocaust,
0:56:40 > 0:56:45I do believe that it should be at least remembered.
0:56:45 > 0:56:47Yes, I do. I do.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49I think it should be taught, you know, in perpetuity
0:56:49 > 0:56:52because even if it is not the Holocaust,
0:56:52 > 0:56:57the other story - Rwanda, Syria,
0:56:57 > 0:57:01Yugoslavia - should be told.
0:57:01 > 0:57:06They should be kept alive in the memory of people.
0:57:06 > 0:57:08They shouldn't be allowed to be forgotten,
0:57:08 > 0:57:11because that way, things will...
0:57:12 > 0:57:15Because we're human, we will forget.
0:57:16 > 0:57:20It's a warning, I suppose, to people to be vigilant,
0:57:20 > 0:57:24not to be bystanders, but to speak out
0:57:24 > 0:57:29if they encounter bad things, or evil things.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33This is exactly what happened.
0:57:33 > 0:57:37The Germans stood by and did nothing
0:57:37 > 0:57:42and at some times were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler.
0:57:44 > 0:57:49So, that is the warning - constant vigilance.