0:00:05 > 0:00:12This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting from the start and some strong language
0:00:14 > 0:00:18How charged is vocabulary here?
0:00:19 > 0:00:22In other words, how much mess can I get myself into
0:00:22 > 0:00:24making this programme if I use the wrong word?
0:00:26 > 0:00:28A terrible mess.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32Words mean everything over here.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35Even the term Northern Ireland, people object to.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38It's the North of Ireland.
0:00:38 > 0:00:39So, terminology is vital
0:00:39 > 0:00:43and you won't be the first and I'm sure you won't be the last
0:00:43 > 0:00:45very well-meaning, liberal,
0:00:45 > 0:00:49broad-minded journalist from that beautiful city of London to come
0:00:49 > 0:00:53to Ireland and get into trouble - it means you're doing your job.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00This is the story of a dramatic and deadly series of events
0:01:00 > 0:01:05that took place at two funerals in Belfast in March 1988.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08EXPLOSIONS
0:01:09 > 0:01:12I just thought it was disgraceful and despicable.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Sickened. Sickened by it.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17It was barbaric.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22It was just the worst excesses of republican violence.
0:01:22 > 0:01:27I think people were looking down the barrel and seeing Armageddon.
0:01:30 > 0:01:3130 years on,
0:01:31 > 0:01:35I want to understand one of the darkest chapters in the history of
0:01:35 > 0:01:37the conflict in Northern Ireland,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40and find out what it means to us today.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42GUNSHOTS
0:01:59 > 0:02:02In the 1980s, Northern Ireland was divided.
0:02:04 > 0:02:09Protestants and Catholics had been locked in conflict for over 20 years...
0:02:09 > 0:02:12..with republicans fighting for a United Ireland
0:02:12 > 0:02:16and trying to force the British troops to leave.
0:03:21 > 0:03:22It's only now,
0:03:22 > 0:03:2730 years on, that people from all sides who were intimately connected
0:03:27 > 0:03:31to the events of March 1988 have agreed to talk
0:03:31 > 0:03:34and have given me their unique perspectives on what took place.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44The chain of events began on the 6th of March when the British Army
0:03:44 > 0:03:49shot dead three members of the IRA who were on a mission in Gibraltar.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53What would the IRA have been doing in Gibraltar?
0:03:53 > 0:03:56- Why weren't they just fighting at home?- OK...
0:03:56 > 0:03:59Well, the IRA considered it...
0:04:03 > 0:04:06..opportune to hit and hurt the British
0:04:06 > 0:04:09wherever it was possible to do so.
0:04:09 > 0:04:16So, if there was a British soldier shot on the streets of Belfast
0:04:16 > 0:04:19it would get a small...
0:04:20 > 0:04:23..you know, postage stamp
0:04:23 > 0:04:25in the corner of the Daily Mirror.
0:04:25 > 0:04:32But if the IRA were to be able to kill British soldiers
0:04:32 > 0:04:35outside of the North of Ireland,
0:04:35 > 0:04:38that would be an added coup.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51On the afternoon of the 6th of March, three members of the IRA,
0:04:51 > 0:04:55two men and one woman, were shot dead by the SAS
0:04:55 > 0:04:57on the streets of Gibraltar.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Did you know any of the Gibraltar three?
0:05:04 > 0:05:05I knew Mairead.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08Her family were local shopkeepers,
0:05:08 > 0:05:10they were very well known.
0:05:10 > 0:05:14I didn't know Sean Savage. I knew Dan McCann.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16Dan's family also were shopkeepers,
0:05:16 > 0:05:20they kept a butcher shop on the main Falls Road.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23The three families were highly respected members
0:05:23 > 0:05:24of the local community.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50I've known the Savage family for about 30 years now.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53The father was a barman.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56The mother was a stitcher.
0:05:56 > 0:06:01There is nothing about the Savage family that I could pluck out of
0:06:01 > 0:06:04the air right now and say, that made them extraordinary.
0:06:04 > 0:06:05Nothing.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10They are the most ordinary people,
0:06:10 > 0:06:12in the most positive sense of the word,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15who found themselves in the most extraordinary times.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31A gentle paramilitary?
0:06:31 > 0:06:34Well, we never use the term paramilitary.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36- What term did you use?- What?
0:06:36 > 0:06:37What term did you use?
0:06:37 > 0:06:39- He's a volunteer.- A volunteer?
0:06:39 > 0:06:42But that sounds like you're working in the local charity shop.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44It does, but that's the terminology used.
0:06:44 > 0:06:45You know?
0:06:49 > 0:06:52I had no sympathy for them whatsoever.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55They were going out there to commit mass murder and they died.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59So, when something like that happens and there's three terrorists
0:06:59 > 0:07:01who're shot dead, there's no sympathy.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Were we happy? Yeah, probably.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06If you're going out and carrying out military attacks
0:07:06 > 0:07:08against the British Army
0:07:08 > 0:07:09and the unionist community, as well,
0:07:09 > 0:07:11you have to expect to get killed.
0:07:11 > 0:07:16So, if you're out planting bombs and you're involved in armed conflict,
0:07:16 > 0:07:17that's what happens.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21You're not fighting each other with feather dusters, you know?
0:07:24 > 0:07:27The republican community in Northern Ireland was appalled
0:07:27 > 0:07:29by the manner of the deaths.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33We were horrified at the deaths. Yeah.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36In complete shock, and horrified.
0:07:36 > 0:07:41And we believed that, you know, it was kind of a shoot to kill.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43So...
0:07:43 > 0:07:47Yeah, we just looked at it as three innocent people who were shot dead.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55The Gibraltar Three were unarmed when they were killed.
0:07:57 > 0:08:02But Mairead's car was later found across the border in Spain
0:08:02 > 0:08:04containing 132lb of explosives.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09The plan had been to bomb a parade
0:08:09 > 0:08:14of the Royal Anglian Regiment in the centre of Gibraltar two days later.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35You know, Dan was shot five times, twice in the back of the head.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Mairead was shot four times.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41Sean Savage was shot 16 times.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43It was an execution.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53Eight days after the shootings,
0:08:53 > 0:08:57the bodies of the Gibraltar Three were brought home.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00Unable to land in Belfast,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03where airport staff refused to handle their bodies,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05the coffins were flown into Dublin.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37From Dublin, the coffins were driven 100 miles north,
0:09:37 > 0:09:39across the border to Belfast.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Was it a difficult decision as funeral directors
0:09:50 > 0:09:53to agree to get involved in that funeral?
0:09:54 > 0:10:01No, not really. Our perspective as funeral directors is that
0:10:01 > 0:10:05you're putting the political side aside
0:10:05 > 0:10:09and you're there under the instructions of the family,
0:10:09 > 0:10:13the relatives and that you're carrying out their wishes.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19The police operation that day - simply the intelligence
0:10:19 > 0:10:23we received - indicated that it was going to be huge numbers
0:10:23 > 0:10:25of people on the street.
0:10:26 > 0:10:32Through the Catholic Church we had contact with the families.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36The indication was that they just wanted the remains back
0:10:36 > 0:10:40so my task was to ensure the remains got back to their families
0:10:40 > 0:10:41in a dignified fashion.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48As it hit the border, the whole atmosphere changed.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50There was a massive RUC presence
0:10:50 > 0:10:54and they started to dictate the terms for travelling north.
0:11:07 > 0:11:11Whenever the police Land Rovers dropped away and left the hearses exposed,
0:11:11 > 0:11:15where we got pelted with bricks and bottles
0:11:15 > 0:11:20and anything they could get their hands on, which was a bit scary.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26The car that I was in,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29the side window was broken and a brick came in and hit me on the shoulder
0:11:29 > 0:11:32and bounced off and hit his brother-in-law,
0:11:32 > 0:11:33split his head open.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38So it was a very tense time between there
0:11:38 > 0:11:41and when we got to just outside Lisburn,
0:11:41 > 0:11:45when basically, the RUC hijacked the coffins
0:11:45 > 0:11:47and we were told to take another route.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58The republicans, they use very particular vocabulary.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01In their words, they say the RUC hijacked the bodies
0:12:01 > 0:12:04and returned them to their families.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06What do you say to that, Cyril?
0:12:06 > 0:12:07Absolutely not.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09The mission that I was on
0:12:09 > 0:12:13was to ensure that the remains got back to the respective homes
0:12:13 > 0:12:16in a dignified fashion and that's what happened.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29How would you describe your politics?
0:12:31 > 0:12:32And what about your wife?
0:12:36 > 0:12:38What did that involve for both of you?
0:12:55 > 0:12:58And would you have hidden weapons?
0:12:58 > 0:13:01- Yeah.- Where would you hide them?
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Stupid places, when we thought about it - under mattresses.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08What about this sofa?
0:13:08 > 0:13:09Oh, no, never, no.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11No bullets in the cushions?
0:13:11 > 0:13:14- Oh, there was.- So, your wife,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17would she unzip the back of the cushion and put the bullets inside?
0:13:17 > 0:13:19Yeah.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Can't have been very comfortable, Stephen.
0:13:21 > 0:13:22HE CHUCKLES
0:13:24 > 0:13:28On the night the bodies of the Gibraltar Three arrived
0:13:28 > 0:13:31back in Belfast, Stephen's 32-year-old son Kevin,
0:13:31 > 0:13:35a member of the IRA, was out patrolling the neighbourhood
0:13:35 > 0:13:37when he was shot dead by the British Army.
0:13:40 > 0:13:46There was suspicion that the British Army would be basically...
0:13:48 > 0:13:51..trying to cause trouble in and around the...
0:13:53 > 0:13:59..the family homes and Kevin was out trying to do something about that.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03So, Kevin was patrolling around near Sean Savage's house?
0:14:03 > 0:14:07- Yeah.- Would he have been trying to shoot a member of the army?
0:14:09 > 0:14:13So he wasn't just trying to protect Sean Savage's house?
0:14:21 > 0:14:25Would he have taken a pot at a soldier, wherever he would have seen one?
0:14:25 > 0:14:26Oh, aye. No hesitation.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Did you feel that he had bravely given his life for the cause?
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Yes, yes.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43Was that any consolation for losing him?
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Not really.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55On Tuesday the 15th of March,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58the day before the funeral of the Gibraltar Three,
0:14:58 > 0:15:03there was a heavy police presence around the homes of their families.
0:15:03 > 0:15:04And, amongst republicans,
0:15:04 > 0:15:08a sense of nervousness about how the funeral would be policed.
0:15:13 > 0:15:19For several years prior to the funeral of the Gibraltar Three,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21all of our funerals had been attacked.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25There were scenes in Derry where - unseemly scenes - where a coffin was knocked over and almost
0:15:25 > 0:15:28split open when the RUC baton charged the mourners.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33For years we were used to our funerals being attacked
0:15:33 > 0:15:35and indeed we had no reason to believe otherwise
0:15:35 > 0:15:37that this wouldn't be the case that morning.
0:15:39 > 0:15:43Over the years, republican funerals had become symbolic events,
0:15:43 > 0:15:46used by the IRA as a show of strength.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Gunmen in balaclavas would salute the dead with a volley of shots,
0:15:52 > 0:15:57invariably sparking conflict with the police.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00Shoot, shoot, shoot!
0:16:02 > 0:16:06So we're moving on now to Wednesday the 16th of March,
0:16:06 > 0:16:08which was the funeral itself.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11You need fortification for this, do you, Cyril?
0:16:11 > 0:16:13The funeral itself, yeah.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18What was your role on that day?
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Well, I had drawn up a plan
0:16:23 > 0:16:25which was a very detailed plan
0:16:25 > 0:16:30involving police and military, and that plan had been approved.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36On the evening of the previous day to the funeral,
0:16:36 > 0:16:41I was summoned to a meeting with my superior
0:16:41 > 0:16:43and was told that there was a change of plan.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49At the last minute, we were told we weren't deploying that day,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52there'd been an agreement made so therefore there was not going to be
0:16:52 > 0:16:54police on the ground.
0:16:54 > 0:17:00Basically, what happened was the Catholic Church were in contact with
0:17:00 > 0:17:05our headquarters and gave an undertaking that there would be no
0:17:05 > 0:17:09paramilitary trappings and there would be nothing of that nature.
0:17:10 > 0:17:16And as a quid pro quo to that, the Chief Constable decided
0:17:16 > 0:17:19we would adopt a standoff approach.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22Were you surprised by that decision?
0:17:22 > 0:17:24I was shocked.
0:17:24 > 0:17:29That was anathema in policing terms,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32is that you simply do not do that,
0:17:32 > 0:17:35but that was my instruction, and that was the policy for the day.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41Had the RUC ever been pulled from an IRA funeral previously?
0:17:41 > 0:17:42Not to my knowledge.
0:17:56 > 0:18:01On Wednesday the 16th of March, the Gibraltar Three - Dan McCann,
0:18:01 > 0:18:05Sean Savage, and Mairead Farrell - were buried in a triple funeral.
0:18:11 > 0:18:16I remember that republicans were
0:18:16 > 0:18:19very surprised, almost shocked, in fact,
0:18:19 > 0:18:24that the British Army and the RUC did stay clear of the funerals.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Pleasantly surprised or suspicious?
0:18:27 > 0:18:30Well, suspicious.
0:18:33 > 0:18:39No police, no military, no armoured cars, no jeeps, no checkpoints.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41This is amazing, this is the way it should be.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47Little did I know what was in wait.
0:18:49 > 0:18:55This triple republican funeral was a major event in West Belfast
0:18:55 > 0:18:59with thousands of people lining the route to pay their respects.
0:19:20 > 0:19:27We had lowered Mairead Farrell's coffin down into the grave
0:19:27 > 0:19:30and we were getting ready to lower the second.
0:19:33 > 0:19:37We were lowering Dan's coffin down into the republican plot
0:19:37 > 0:19:39and there was a loud boom.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42EXPLOSIONS
0:19:44 > 0:19:45Jesus!
0:19:45 > 0:19:49And then people were sort of in a panic.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52Get down, everybody, get down!
0:19:52 > 0:19:54SCREAMING
0:19:57 > 0:20:01I was confused, at first I thought actually we were being mortar bombed
0:20:01 > 0:20:05from across the M1, which leads into a loyalist area, so we ducked down.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07There were more explosions.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09EXPLOSIONS
0:20:09 > 0:20:10We thought,
0:20:10 > 0:20:12were some of the graves booby-trapped?
0:20:12 > 0:20:14Was there a timing device in some of the graves?
0:20:14 > 0:20:17And you're trying to take families away from the graves,
0:20:17 > 0:20:19because no-one had a clue at that stage what was happening.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25I took the microphone and tried my best to restore calm.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29Can people please stay calm? Can people stay where they are?
0:20:30 > 0:20:32I seen this fellow,
0:20:32 > 0:20:36ended up, Michael Stone, having this handgun in his hand.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38GUNSHOTS
0:20:40 > 0:20:43Some of the people screaming, "There he is, there he is" and...
0:20:44 > 0:20:48..you know, some of the people running down towards him.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52I got fairly close to Stone.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57And he turned around and he fired a couple shots at me
0:20:57 > 0:20:58but he wasn't...
0:20:58 > 0:21:01It must've been the adrenaline and stuff like that,
0:21:01 > 0:21:03he wasn't able to hit me.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11And then he pulled out a grenade and he threw it in my general direction.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16As it exploded,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19there was shrapnel fired all over the place and it was actually
0:21:19 > 0:21:22underneath the water whenever it exploded
0:21:22 > 0:21:26which meant, as the fragments...
0:21:26 > 0:21:27you know, they sizzled.
0:21:51 > 0:21:55They were running after a man who was throwing grenades at them.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57He was shooting at them and they
0:21:57 > 0:22:02were still were able to apprehend him on the motorway, and I thought,
0:22:02 > 0:22:04if that was a British soldier doing that,
0:22:04 > 0:22:08he'd probably be awarded the Victoria Cross for bravery.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12I felt an impact on my...
0:22:12 > 0:22:17inner thigh and I realised that I was injured.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22My dad and the limousine drivers
0:22:22 > 0:22:24just started getting all the injured
0:22:24 > 0:22:26and the wounded into the limousine.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31The limousines then were used for ferrying
0:22:31 > 0:22:34the wounded and the injured down to the hospital.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38They actually put me into the hearse.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42They took me in, they put me under,
0:22:42 > 0:22:46give me anaesthetic and operated, took the shrapnel out,
0:22:46 > 0:22:48and gave me a lot of stitches.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53Meanwhile, Michael Stone had reached the motorway,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56where the crowd of mourners caught up with him
0:22:56 > 0:22:58and successfully overpowered him.
0:23:01 > 0:23:07When did you first become aware that the funeral was being attacked?
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Well, we had the benefit of heli-telly -
0:23:11 > 0:23:17the army had a helicopter in the air and we had this small little monitor
0:23:17 > 0:23:19that was about ten inches square.
0:23:21 > 0:23:22People were diving down
0:23:22 > 0:23:25and people were starting to run
0:23:25 > 0:23:29and you could hear these sort of muffled explosions.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32Then I directed officers from Grosvenor Road
0:23:32 > 0:23:34to approach the motorway.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38So, we jumped into the Land Rover
0:23:38 > 0:23:40and headed as quickly as we could down
0:23:40 > 0:23:42towards where the explosion was coming from.
0:23:45 > 0:23:46We actually got up
0:23:46 > 0:23:50as they were manhandling who I now know to be Michael Stone
0:23:50 > 0:23:51from the back of a car.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57My first concern with explosions was, have you any grenades?
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Cos what I didn't want to do was put my hand in his pocket and pull out
0:24:00 > 0:24:02a grenade and kill me or kill everybody else.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17After the commotions and stuff in Milltown,
0:24:17 > 0:24:22I'll always remember walking in and the phone had rang...
0:24:23 > 0:24:26..and this guy saying,
0:24:26 > 0:24:30"We missed you today but we'll get you the next time."
0:24:33 > 0:24:38My dad had come in and he was in
0:24:38 > 0:24:40a very bad state of shock...
0:24:42 > 0:24:44..and he just broke down.
0:24:47 > 0:24:51My dad actually ended up taking a nervous breakdown
0:24:51 > 0:24:53over the whole incident.
0:24:55 > 0:25:02He went out of work for well over a year and even trying to get him
0:25:02 > 0:25:08motivated to come out on funerals and stuff with us after that was...
0:25:08 > 0:25:10it was very hard.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Michael Stone, a seasoned loyalist paramilitary,
0:25:16 > 0:25:19later claimed that his ambition had been
0:25:19 > 0:25:23to assassinate republican leaders Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness
0:25:23 > 0:25:24and Danny Morrison.
0:25:26 > 0:25:30In fact, he attacked the mourners indiscriminately,
0:25:30 > 0:25:34injuring 60 people and killing three of the young men
0:25:34 > 0:25:36who chased him through the cemetery.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42Of the three dead, only one - Kevin Brady -
0:25:42 > 0:25:45happened to be a member of the IRA.
0:25:45 > 0:25:50He worked for the republicans and was Danny Morrison's driver.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56To be in his company
0:25:56 > 0:26:01was quite a feeling. He always brought joy into your life,
0:26:01 > 0:26:03he could be quite funny.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07He could be quite droll, as well, and basically I loved him.
0:26:07 > 0:26:08And so...
0:26:13 > 0:26:15I'm sorry.
0:26:19 > 0:26:24The gun went through his stomach and out his back and hit an artery.
0:26:24 > 0:26:25Just...
0:26:26 > 0:26:29And that was it. If it had been quarter of an inch either way,
0:26:29 > 0:26:32he would have been OK.
0:26:38 > 0:26:39Heartbreaking.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Somebody that you saw a few hours before...
0:26:47 > 0:26:49..just lying cold on a table.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55The other two victims were married men with children
0:26:55 > 0:26:57and had no political involvement.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02John Murray's siblings have never spoken publicly before,
0:27:02 > 0:27:04having lived with the stigma
0:27:04 > 0:27:06of their brother dying at an IRA funeral.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12He was at that funeral simply because
0:27:12 > 0:27:14he had a right to be there.
0:27:14 > 0:27:17It was wrong what happened in Gibraltar
0:27:17 > 0:27:21but it wasn't a big deal - in Ireland we all go to funerals.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25My husband called to work to tell me that John was injured.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29He says, "Mary, he's dead."
0:27:30 > 0:27:34So the next thing was, "We'll go and see him, where is he?"
0:27:34 > 0:27:38SIREN BLARES
0:27:38 > 0:27:39When we got to the hospital...
0:27:40 > 0:27:43..and my mother and sisters went in to identify him...
0:27:44 > 0:27:48..and we just couldn't believe...
0:27:48 > 0:27:49John's gone.
0:27:54 > 0:27:59My mummy was there and she said, "Peter, there he is."
0:28:04 > 0:28:07Fella I loved... a lovely man, wasn't he?
0:28:08 > 0:28:11And she says, "Be brave, Peter,
0:28:11 > 0:28:17"there's John" and I just held John and I held my mummy, and
0:28:17 > 0:28:21that's what I recall of that day.
0:28:28 > 0:28:33When her husband, Thomas McErlean, was killed at the funeral,
0:28:33 > 0:28:36Anna was 19 and pregnant with their third child.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48That's the clothes Thomas was wearing when he was killed.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54You can see where they cut his jumper off him.
0:28:55 > 0:28:58And where he was shot in the trunk of the neck...
0:29:00 > 0:29:02There wasn't much blood
0:29:02 > 0:29:06and I think people in the graveyard just thought he had fainted,
0:29:06 > 0:29:09because had haemorrhaged inside.
0:29:21 > 0:29:22I can still smell him off them.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24- Can you?- Yeah.
0:29:24 > 0:29:28It's been a comfort. Almost.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33SHE SIGHS
0:29:42 > 0:29:44As far as I was concerned
0:29:44 > 0:29:46and people, from a loyalist concern,
0:29:46 > 0:29:49if you went to an IRA funeral, you were a republican.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54There was all aspects of being involved in republicanism, you know,
0:29:54 > 0:29:56you were a gunman, you were hiding guns,
0:29:56 > 0:29:58you were driving cars, you were raising funds,
0:29:58 > 0:30:01you were a supporter, you were involved in the republican movement,
0:30:01 > 0:30:05so anybody that was at a funeral of three IRA volunteers
0:30:05 > 0:30:07that was killed in military action in Gibraltar,
0:30:07 > 0:30:10they were supporters of the republican movement.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14So as far as we were concerned within the loyalist community,
0:30:14 > 0:30:16everybody at that funeral was a target.
0:30:18 > 0:30:19For some people,
0:30:19 > 0:30:23the fact that the security forces stayed away from a funeral
0:30:23 > 0:30:26on the very day that Michael Stone launched his attack
0:30:26 > 0:30:29was just too much of a coincidence.
0:30:32 > 0:30:36To me, it has never, ever been explained how
0:30:36 > 0:30:39on the first day in five years
0:30:39 > 0:30:42that the police and the army decide not to monitor an IRA funeral
0:30:42 > 0:30:44that that's the day that
0:30:44 > 0:30:47Michael Stone, out of the blue, decides to attack.
0:30:47 > 0:30:52So, in my mind and the mind of most people in our community,
0:30:52 > 0:30:53there was collusion.
0:30:55 > 0:30:59I had noticed when I arrived at the plot that
0:30:59 > 0:31:03there was a white van parked on the M1 motorway,
0:31:03 > 0:31:05which I just presumed was
0:31:05 > 0:31:07the British Army...
0:31:07 > 0:31:09..or the RUC.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12The significance of the white van seen on the motorway
0:31:12 > 0:31:15remains a contentious issue.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18Many Catholics made the assumption it was a police vehicle
0:31:18 > 0:31:21and was part of Michael Stone's getaway plan.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27Well, there was a van sitting on the M1,
0:31:27 > 0:31:30which he was trying to get down to,
0:31:30 > 0:31:33so I think there was collusion there.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36I believe the British Army
0:31:36 > 0:31:38were behind it.
0:31:38 > 0:31:40So, you think somehow the British state
0:31:40 > 0:31:42were involved in giving Michael Stone a free run?
0:31:42 > 0:31:44Yep.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49There's no way that a police van was going to get Stone away.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56Never would there have been any sort of arrangement
0:31:56 > 0:31:59to lift a terrorist away. That's a nonsense.
0:32:04 > 0:32:08The white van could have been there to assist his escape.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11It didn't necessarily have to be
0:32:11 > 0:32:14British Army or an RUC white van.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17It could have been a loyalist
0:32:17 > 0:32:19friend of his or a member of
0:32:19 > 0:32:22a loyalist paramilitary organisation, etc.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25People have their own interpretation of it.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Do you believe that Michael Stone was acting alone?
0:32:30 > 0:32:34Yes. Yes, he was acting alone, he told me he was acting alone.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37He got an Ulsterbus there that day to Milltown
0:32:37 > 0:32:39and he walked in and that was that.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42And he took it upon himself to do what he was doing,
0:32:42 > 0:32:45you know, as far as we were concerned in the loyalist community,
0:32:45 > 0:32:46there was no collusion.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56Most people seen Michael Stone as a hero.
0:32:56 > 0:32:58Simply because the fact of the matter is that
0:32:58 > 0:33:00he took the war to the IRA.
0:33:04 > 0:33:05In celebration?
0:33:07 > 0:33:08Yeah, oh, aye.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32You know, I heard the songs being
0:33:32 > 0:33:35sang and, you know, within our community
0:33:35 > 0:33:38and obviously there was murals went up celebrating what he did,
0:33:38 > 0:33:42you know, cos at the end of the day, he was a hero, you know?
0:33:42 > 0:33:43# Knew when to run
0:33:43 > 0:33:46# But he never just walked away
0:33:46 > 0:33:48# And the fenians started chasing him
0:33:48 > 0:33:51# There was 20 dozen more
0:33:51 > 0:33:54# Michael stopped, had a wee look
0:33:54 > 0:33:56# And threw a couple more... #
0:33:56 > 0:33:57In the aftermath of the funeral,
0:33:57 > 0:34:02the police and army sat together to watch news footage of the event.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07Unlike the British Army, the police were recruited locally
0:34:07 > 0:34:10and were largely drawn from the Protestant population.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16For police officers to carry on in the manner that they did -
0:34:16 > 0:34:20every time one of the grenades blew up
0:34:20 > 0:34:21there was cheers going up.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23You thought you were at a football match.
0:34:23 > 0:34:28It was, "Yeah! Yeah! Pity he didn't get more of them!"
0:34:29 > 0:34:33The reaction, for me, I thought was totally disgusting.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37Certainly nobody I ever knew
0:34:37 > 0:34:41had any praise for him, you know...
0:34:45 > 0:34:47..that's all I can say, really.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50Nobody was running about going, "Ya-ho."
0:34:55 > 0:34:59Just 72 hours after the funeral of the Gibraltar Three,
0:34:59 > 0:35:01republicans prepared for another funeral.
0:35:15 > 0:35:18The funeral of IRA volunteer Kevin Brady,
0:35:18 > 0:35:22who'd been killed by Michael Stone three days earlier,
0:35:22 > 0:35:25took place on Saturday the 19th of March.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32Were you in charge of police operations that day?
0:35:32 > 0:35:38I was. It was a similar arrangement to the previous funerals -
0:35:38 > 0:35:42that we wouldn't closely police the event.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46And again I was in Andersonstown Police Station with
0:35:46 > 0:35:47the same two officers,
0:35:47 > 0:35:49my two superiors were with me.
0:35:53 > 0:35:55There was a sense of nervousness.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59We were on exactly the same funeral route leaving St Agnes's Chapel
0:35:59 > 0:36:02going down to the republican plots.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07This was the exact same route that we had followed three days earlier,
0:36:07 > 0:36:09so it was quite fraught.
0:36:13 > 0:36:17I was on the main Andersonstown Road as part of the funeral cortege
0:36:17 > 0:36:21and we passed a section of the road which had shops on either side.
0:36:23 > 0:36:28And a car came very, very fast to my left,
0:36:28 > 0:36:31up the road, in front of the shop.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37This car had come round the bend,
0:36:37 > 0:36:39had ignored the stewards who were simply,
0:36:39 > 0:36:42you know, asking people to go into the side...
0:36:42 > 0:36:44If the car had simply just
0:36:44 > 0:36:47moved in to the side of the road as people did,
0:36:47 > 0:36:50then nothing would have happened.
0:36:57 > 0:36:58As the car approached,
0:36:58 > 0:37:02Kevin Brady's sister Ann was carrying his coffin
0:37:02 > 0:37:04at the front of the cortege.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08We just thought, "Oh, my God, it's happening again,
0:37:08 > 0:37:11"the loyalists have come again to attack another funeral."
0:37:21 > 0:37:25The heli-telly started to focus in.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27We picked up a surge in the crowd
0:37:27 > 0:37:30and realised then that there was a car -
0:37:30 > 0:37:32it seemed to be a white or silver car -
0:37:32 > 0:37:36had stopped and the crowd were gathered around the car.
0:37:36 > 0:37:37Under attack,
0:37:37 > 0:37:40one of the men in the car produced a pistol
0:37:40 > 0:37:43and fired a single warning shot into the air.
0:37:45 > 0:37:46GUNSHOT
0:37:46 > 0:37:47SCREAMING
0:37:49 > 0:37:52The crowd sort of burst back
0:37:52 > 0:37:56and it looked to us as if there had been a shot,
0:37:56 > 0:37:58or something, maybe fired.
0:38:00 > 0:38:05But the crowd then very quickly re-gathered and started thumping
0:38:05 > 0:38:06and banging at the car.
0:38:11 > 0:38:12The crowd reacted because they
0:38:12 > 0:38:15thought they were under attack again.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17Here you had a car pulling up,
0:38:17 > 0:38:22they produced weapons. So automatically in the aftermath of
0:38:22 > 0:38:26the Michael Stone situation, they thought, "Here we go again."
0:38:27 > 0:38:31An ordinary Catholic woman, who happened to be walking
0:38:31 > 0:38:32along the Andersonstown Road
0:38:32 > 0:38:36that day, found herself caught up in the funeral procession.
0:38:36 > 0:38:38She told her daughter what she witnessed.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03Also in the crowd was a republican from Glasgow who had travelled
0:39:03 > 0:39:05to Belfast for the funeral.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11Everybody's running for the car
0:39:11 > 0:39:13so your adrenaline,
0:39:13 > 0:39:17you're running beside them, you're running towards that car.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19So you ran towards the car, too?
0:39:19 > 0:39:20Yeah.
0:39:20 > 0:39:25Yep. We were, like, right on the, sort of, outside of the crowd.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Seen all the crowd round about the car
0:39:28 > 0:39:30and that's when we seen the guys getting dragged out
0:39:30 > 0:39:32and taken into Casement.
0:39:33 > 0:39:38The two men - who subsequently turned out to be British soldiers -
0:39:38 > 0:39:42were taken into Casement Park, a walled sports ground just opposite.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49Nuala will only speak anonymously about what happened next,
0:39:49 > 0:39:52as her mother still fears reprisals from republicans.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34They brought one over the railings,
0:40:34 > 0:40:37and his leg was caught - if I remember right -
0:40:37 > 0:40:40his leg was caught in the railings. Yeah.
0:40:47 > 0:40:52The injured men were put in a black taxi and driven away by the IRA.
0:40:58 > 0:41:03What do you feel about the fact that the corporals weren't rescued, Noel?
0:41:03 > 0:41:05We were very, very annoyed.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08Police-wise, we were raging, is the right term,
0:41:08 > 0:41:10because immediately straightaway
0:41:10 > 0:41:13people were saying we could've been there, we could've saved them.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18We didn't take any action initially
0:41:18 > 0:41:20because we had no idea what was going on
0:41:20 > 0:41:25and of course I was operating under the strict policy
0:41:25 > 0:41:27that we would not deploy.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32As soon as we realised something was wrong, we decided we needed to go,
0:41:32 > 0:41:34we needed to get out there.
0:41:34 > 0:41:36So you defied orders to go?
0:41:36 > 0:41:38We did.
0:41:42 > 0:41:47One of the soldiers had carried ID which mentioned Hereford
0:41:47 > 0:41:50and Hereford is the headquarters of the SAS,
0:41:50 > 0:41:52so the crowd and the IRA that came on the scene
0:41:52 > 0:41:55thought that they had got two SAS men.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58The IRA had confused Herford -
0:41:58 > 0:42:02a town in Germany, where the British Army had a base -
0:42:02 > 0:42:06with Hereford, the headquarters of the SAS in Britain.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11They believed they had captured two members of the same elite unit
0:42:11 > 0:42:14who had killed the Gibraltar Three only 13 days before.
0:42:32 > 0:42:34One guy came out the left side
0:42:34 > 0:42:37and sort of crawled a wee bit that way.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45The door opened and there was a guy come out the driver's side and tried
0:42:45 > 0:42:46taking a run, stumbled.
0:42:49 > 0:42:50And I just seen your man...
0:42:50 > 0:42:53basically, senior guys shooting him.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59I actually seen it.
0:42:59 > 0:43:00You saw them being shot?
0:43:00 > 0:43:01Yeah.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07But the fellow had a balaclava on him, you couldn't tell who he was.
0:43:10 > 0:43:12It wasn't nice to watch.
0:43:17 > 0:43:19You said it wasn't nice to watch?
0:43:19 > 0:43:21- No.- Do you think it was right that they were killed?
0:43:21 > 0:43:23Yeah. They shouldn't have been there.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29It's hard to say things like that but that's what it was.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50When you got to the scene, what did you see, Cyril?
0:43:50 > 0:43:53I'll not forget it until my dying day -
0:43:53 > 0:43:56they were stripped down to their pants,
0:43:56 > 0:44:04both men, and the steam was actually rising from their bodies
0:44:04 > 0:44:08and we weren't actually sure whether they actually were dead
0:44:08 > 0:44:10but we couldn't find any pulse.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22How did you become aware that these men were army?
0:44:24 > 0:44:28One of the officers I deployed from Woodburn Police Station,
0:44:28 > 0:44:30an inspector,
0:44:30 > 0:44:31came over to me and pointed out
0:44:31 > 0:44:34that the car was... their car was burnt out.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39When I went over and looked at the car, it was very clear to me that
0:44:39 > 0:44:43although it was burnt out, there was armoured plating
0:44:43 > 0:44:45in the backrest of the seats
0:44:45 > 0:44:47and indeed, if I remember rightly,
0:44:47 > 0:44:49there was maybe a serial number.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54At this point, it became known to the security forces
0:44:54 > 0:44:56that the two men were British soldiers
0:44:56 > 0:44:59who had been travelling in an unmarked vehicle.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05The guys displayed magnificent restraint.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08They had Browning pistols,
0:45:08 > 0:45:1114 rounds in the magazine, or 11, whatever.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14I think the reason why the guys were so restrained
0:45:14 > 0:45:15is because the army and the police,
0:45:15 > 0:45:18it's hammered into you from the minute you start training,
0:45:18 > 0:45:20do not use your firearm.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24So what do you do?
0:45:24 > 0:45:25What would they have had to do?
0:45:25 > 0:45:28Would they have shot their way out?
0:45:28 > 0:45:31Cos they would have ended up getting prosecuted by the British Army.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34So they were in a no-win situation.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41No family deserve to have to sit and watch...
0:45:41 > 0:45:44They would have seen that on the TV...
0:45:45 > 0:45:48First, they wouldn't have known who that was
0:45:48 > 0:45:51but anybody that had sons in the army that day would have
0:45:51 > 0:45:53been thinking, "Is that my boy?
0:45:53 > 0:45:55"I hope to God it's not."
0:45:58 > 0:46:02The two men were David Howes and Derek Wood,
0:46:02 > 0:46:04who turned out to be corporals
0:46:04 > 0:46:05in the British Army.
0:46:06 > 0:46:11They were in the Signals Corps, a unit responsible for communications.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16David Howes had only been in
0:46:16 > 0:46:18Northern Ireland for a week
0:46:18 > 0:46:21and was travelling with his more experienced colleague.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28The press reacted in horror to their deaths.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34For many, it seemed that the conflict in Northern Ireland
0:46:34 > 0:46:37had reached the depths of depravity.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45In 31 years of policing...
0:46:46 > 0:46:50..there've been many things that one has been shocked about in different
0:46:50 > 0:46:55parts of the province. That is probably one of the worst.
0:46:56 > 0:47:01It was just the worst excesses of republican violence.
0:47:05 > 0:47:11When you have young IRA volunteers all over this city,
0:47:11 > 0:47:15all over the North and, as Gibraltar showed,
0:47:15 > 0:47:20clearly across any countries that they could get access to,
0:47:20 > 0:47:23where they're out endeavouring to...
0:47:23 > 0:47:25You know, and that's what they're trying to do,
0:47:25 > 0:47:28they're out trying to kill British soldiers,
0:47:28 > 0:47:29they're out trying to attack them.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35You know, it wouldn't have made much sense for IRA volunteers to think,
0:47:35 > 0:47:39"Well, OK, we'll let these two go."
0:47:57 > 0:47:59So it was more like a mob lynching?
0:48:05 > 0:48:10So, just to clarify, if they had been shot cleanly, you wouldn't
0:48:10 > 0:48:12feel uncomfortable with that?
0:48:21 > 0:48:25Can you explain the impact that it's had on you as a family
0:48:25 > 0:48:28that the corporals were killed at Kevin's funeral?
0:48:30 > 0:48:33Well... we...
0:48:33 > 0:48:34Kevin to us was a hero.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38He ran after Michael Stone and that's how we looked at Kevin
0:48:38 > 0:48:40and that's how we were honouring Kevin.
0:48:40 > 0:48:44And then this happened and then because of it
0:48:44 > 0:48:50we were sort of demonised and in the media we were actually called
0:48:50 > 0:48:53depraved and despicable.
0:48:53 > 0:48:57- And people were saying "savages". - Savages, you know.
0:48:57 > 0:49:01And I thought, "We're not depraved."
0:49:03 > 0:49:07We're brothers and sisters and mothers and aunts and uncles.
0:49:07 > 0:49:11So, there was a lot of shame and blame.
0:49:11 > 0:49:14Blame as if it was our fault.
0:49:16 > 0:49:20Do you think that a crowd of loyalist mourners would have reacted
0:49:20 > 0:49:23if the boot had been on the other foot?
0:49:23 > 0:49:28If two republicans were, you know, come into a loyalist funeral,
0:49:28 > 0:49:30they'd have got the same.
0:49:31 > 0:49:35You're very even-handed, David, because actually in the media
0:49:35 > 0:49:38what was suggested at the time, that it was evidence
0:49:38 > 0:49:41that the nationalist community were
0:49:41 > 0:49:44a kind of horribly savage community,
0:49:44 > 0:49:46but actually you're saying it would have been the same?
0:49:46 > 0:49:48No, it would have been the same.
0:49:48 > 0:49:49It would have been the same.
0:49:49 > 0:49:55You know, that's part of the media, they were demonising republicans,
0:49:55 > 0:49:58but, you know, I have to be honest,
0:49:58 > 0:50:01we were equally as vicious as republicans were
0:50:01 > 0:50:03and that's just the way it was.
0:50:14 > 0:50:17I remember watching a wildlife programme and it was hyenas
0:50:17 > 0:50:20and they'd got their kill and they were around their kill
0:50:20 > 0:50:22and they were just ripping this apart
0:50:22 > 0:50:24and for some reason, that situation,
0:50:24 > 0:50:28these two guys getting dragged out of that car, came right in my head.
0:50:31 > 0:50:34I just thought it was such a horrendous thing to happen.
0:50:36 > 0:50:38Sometimes I have flashbacks.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41I can't be surrounded by people,
0:50:41 > 0:50:44I can't have people touching me or being aggressive towards me.
0:50:46 > 0:50:50I get this fear that I'm going to be abducted
0:50:50 > 0:50:52and this is why I'm going to see a counsellor.
0:50:52 > 0:50:54I'm still seeing them at the minute.
0:50:57 > 0:50:58That incident sticks with me
0:50:58 > 0:51:00and it always will until the day I die.
0:51:08 > 0:51:10Does it still haunt you now, what you saw?
0:51:10 > 0:51:12Aye, I still see the guys.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17And I say prayers for people at night
0:51:17 > 0:51:20and sometimes I say prayers for they two guys, aye,
0:51:20 > 0:51:23because it doesn't matter who they are,
0:51:23 > 0:51:25they didn't deserve what they got.
0:51:34 > 0:51:36The killings made their mark
0:51:36 > 0:51:38on ordinary Catholics in West Belfast, too.
0:52:22 > 0:52:26What the corporals were doing there that day remains a mystery.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30According to statements made by the army at the time,
0:52:30 > 0:52:32they were driving through Belfast
0:52:32 > 0:52:36from one army barracks to another at the time of their deaths.
0:52:38 > 0:52:39The safe route would have been
0:52:39 > 0:52:42to drive due south on the M1 motorway.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46Instead the corporals drove down
0:52:46 > 0:52:50the Andersonstown Road, straight towards the funeral cortege.
0:52:53 > 0:52:57And the first thing we always said, and I always remember it, thinking,
0:52:57 > 0:52:59"What the fuck were they doing there?"
0:52:59 > 0:53:01How the hell did they end up in that funeral?
0:53:01 > 0:53:03That's the first thing that went through our heads.
0:53:03 > 0:53:04Is that because all of you would
0:53:04 > 0:53:06have known that that area was out of bounds?
0:53:06 > 0:53:09Everybody, the wee men on the moon would have known that
0:53:09 > 0:53:13that was out of bounds and for the life of me, only these two guys...
0:53:13 > 0:53:18And I still look back at that to this day, thinking,
0:53:18 > 0:53:20there was no need for what happened,
0:53:20 > 0:53:23but why the hell they ended up there in the first place,
0:53:23 > 0:53:25I'll never know.
0:53:27 > 0:53:30How would they have known which routes were off-limits?
0:53:30 > 0:53:35They would have been compelled to find out what areas were off-limits
0:53:35 > 0:53:37so that's the first check. The second check
0:53:37 > 0:53:40would have been when they were leaving the base,
0:53:40 > 0:53:41they should have been warned.
0:53:41 > 0:53:45A lot of areas in that territory
0:53:45 > 0:53:47would have been, from time to time, out of bounds,
0:53:47 > 0:53:51so that would have been like putting your shirt on in the morning,
0:53:51 > 0:53:54is that you always check and plan your route.
0:53:57 > 0:53:59The army were very good at laying routes.
0:53:59 > 0:54:02You'd get a route to go from A to B and that's the route you take,
0:54:02 > 0:54:06so they know if something happens, where to find you was that route.
0:54:06 > 0:54:09And I think it was a case of just the guys went wandering.
0:54:13 > 0:54:17The British have told lie after lie after lie -
0:54:17 > 0:54:19"Poor guys were in there by mistake."
0:54:19 > 0:54:21No danger they were there by mistake.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24They couldn't have got in there by mistake.
0:54:24 > 0:54:27Everybody knew that funeral was on.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30They would have known.
0:54:30 > 0:54:34The British Army, biggest intelligence in the world
0:54:34 > 0:54:36and they don't know there's a funeral
0:54:36 > 0:54:38and the two guys drive in by mistake - don't think so.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44Well, they were undoubtedly undercover,
0:54:44 > 0:54:48they weren't in British Army uniform and they weren't,
0:54:48 > 0:54:54they didn't have the standard GI haircut, if you will. You know?
0:54:54 > 0:54:56They had long hair and
0:54:56 > 0:54:59moustaches and stuff. Just...
0:54:59 > 0:55:01Whatever they were at...
0:55:02 > 0:55:06And who knows? Only their commanders would be able to answer that, but
0:55:06 > 0:55:08I don't believe that they were up to any good.
0:55:15 > 0:55:19They were plainclothes, I don't know if they were undercover or not,
0:55:19 > 0:55:22I don't think anyone knows. But people find it strange.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25What were two plainclothes British soldiers
0:55:25 > 0:55:28doing to drive up the Andersonstown Road into a funeral cortege?
0:55:29 > 0:55:32So, to this day it is inexplicable.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36Someone suggested maybe the driver of the car, who was familiar with
0:55:36 > 0:55:38the terrain, thought he would show off
0:55:38 > 0:55:41but I don't want to do a disservice to that man's memory
0:55:41 > 0:55:44or his family. I don't know what the explanation is.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48But it was...
0:55:49 > 0:55:52It was disastrous for all concerned.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06I think it was you, Sean, that coined the phrase
0:56:06 > 0:56:09- the "Battle Of The Narratives." - Yeah.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13And that battle does seem to continue to this day.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15It's still ongoing, because
0:56:15 > 0:56:18someone once made the statement, and I think they were right -
0:56:18 > 0:56:22it's a continuation of the conflict by other means.
0:56:22 > 0:56:26- You know?- So the fighting's over but the fighting over the narrative
0:56:26 > 0:56:28- continues?- Different type of battle.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30So it's a battle around narratives
0:56:30 > 0:56:32and people want to justify past actions.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39I don't think loyalists and unionists
0:56:39 > 0:56:42are very good at propaganda.
0:56:42 > 0:56:47I think the republican movement are very, very good at propaganda.
0:56:47 > 0:56:50Whose account is the true one?
0:56:52 > 0:56:55Well, history will judge that
0:56:55 > 0:57:00and I think there's a big attempt
0:57:00 > 0:57:03by republicans, in particular, to rewrite history.
0:57:03 > 0:57:07It's almost like the police were the terrorists and
0:57:07 > 0:57:10the IRA were these wee men, just freedom fighters.
0:57:12 > 0:57:14Who's going to be believed?
0:57:16 > 0:57:18Whoever shouts the loudest.
0:57:20 > 0:57:24I'm giving you a perspective which is undoubtedly a republican
0:57:24 > 0:57:27perspective. I don't say otherwise.
0:57:27 > 0:57:30If you talk to a loyalist, they'll give you a loyalist perspective.
0:57:30 > 0:57:34If you talk to state forces, they will give you their perspective.
0:57:34 > 0:57:36So who do we believe? Who should we believe, Sean?
0:57:36 > 0:57:38You don't believe anyone.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40You listen to all perspectives.
0:57:40 > 0:57:44Listen to them all and try and understand them.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47So, it's not a question of saying "That is the right perspective" -
0:57:47 > 0:57:49none of them are right on their own merits.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53They're all right on their own merits, if you know what I mean.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56So, people need to understand what made people tick,
0:57:56 > 0:58:00but the important thing is, having said that,
0:58:00 > 0:58:01we all have to have a common
0:58:01 > 0:58:05resolve that another generation doesn't have to go through what
0:58:05 > 0:58:07our generation had to go through.
0:58:09 > 0:58:13Whether you're a British soldier from Leeds or London,
0:58:13 > 0:58:16or a republican from Ballymurphy or Clonard,
0:58:16 > 0:58:18that's the important thing.