0:00:06 > 0:00:08Hello, and welcome to Inside Versailles,
0:00:08 > 0:00:11where we'll go into a bit more detail about what we've just seen.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14And today, we're thrilled to be joined by Kit Heyam,
0:00:14 > 0:00:17who's going to talk particularly about gender and sexuality.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20So, we've got this incredible portrait today of Philippe,
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Louis' brother, and this episode really shows the tension between these two brothers.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27It wasn't easy being a king's brother, was it, Kit?
0:00:27 > 0:00:30No. He was brought up by his mother, Anne of Austria,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33who was very aware that a king's younger brother was a very, very dangerous thing.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36She'd seen Louis and Philippe's uncle, Gaston, rebel against the Crown
0:00:36 > 0:00:40in the civil wars that took place in France when Louis and Philippe were young,
0:00:40 > 0:00:43and so she was very keen that Philippe was not going to grow up to be a threat to Louis.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46So, he wasn't given much of a political education, and when he grew up,
0:00:46 > 0:00:50he wasn't given much of a role in governing the state, as you might expect for a king's brother.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53So, he gets dressed as a little girl, growing up.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56He does. I mean, everyone in that period was dressed as a little girl
0:00:56 > 0:00:58until the age of about seven.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01But what, of course, distinguished Philippe is that, when he grew up,
0:01:01 > 0:01:03he continued to wear dresses in various situations.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Is there an element that his dressing up in women's clothes
0:01:08 > 0:01:12is a way of him sort of getting back at Louis to try and embarrass him?
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Or is Louis OK with it? Do we know anything about that?
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Well, I think it's interesting that, obviously, Philippe hadn't
0:01:17 > 0:01:20been given a role in governing the state very much as an adult.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23This gave him a certain amount of freedom, because,
0:01:23 > 0:01:27when it comes to things like this - men dressing up as women -
0:01:27 > 0:01:28context is everything, right?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31So, if something's not disrupting the social order,
0:01:31 > 0:01:33then it's largely left alone.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36If we contrast Philippe to someone like Henry III,
0:01:36 > 0:01:38who was on the French throne in the late 16th century,
0:01:38 > 0:01:41he gets slaughtered in the popular press for wearing earrings,
0:01:41 > 0:01:44- wearing jewellery, wearing make-up. - Earrings!- Earrings in both ears!
0:01:44 > 0:01:48- Oh, my goodness!- God forbid! - Too shocking!
0:01:48 > 0:01:52So, erm...but, the subtext of the opposition to him and his favourites
0:01:52 > 0:01:55dressing that way is an opposition to there being too many young,
0:01:55 > 0:01:57fashionable men having power at court, and not enough old,
0:01:57 > 0:02:00experienced men being consulted on the running of the country.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03So, they're kind of taking his gender nonconformity and using
0:02:03 > 0:02:06it as a stick to beat him with for other political crimes.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08Philippe, he doesn't have a role in the governing of the state,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11so, in some ways, he's got that freedom to dress how he wants,
0:02:11 > 0:02:14and it may be that that was a way of getting back at Louis
0:02:14 > 0:02:15for not giving him much of a political role.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19Well, one of the people that we see him with in the drama is Chevalier de Lorraine, who...
0:02:19 > 0:02:24- Chevalier, what a man.- Great hair, great tache...- Great hair. - Handsome cheekbones.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27You know, he's a real guy, so this is a true story,
0:02:27 > 0:02:30but what was their relationship like at court and what was the gossip about them?
0:02:30 > 0:02:33Actually, they got together during the War of Devolution,
0:02:33 > 0:02:36when France was occupying the Spanish Netherlands.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39And, after that, the Chevalier became a part of Philippe's entourage,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42which is something he did financially very well out of,
0:02:42 > 0:02:45but there was a genuine emotional relationship there, as well.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Philippe called the Chevalier, "the best friend I have an earth."
0:02:48 > 0:02:50And also, the relationship with Henriette-Anne,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53there's this real tension between the three of them.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55- It's a three-way relationship, isn't it?- Exactly, yeah.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58I mean, we should remember the way that 17th-century people
0:02:58 > 0:03:01looked at sex is that they didn't see it as an identity.
0:03:01 > 0:03:02Sexuality was just something you did.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05Erm, so, at most, it was kind of habit or a preference or a...
0:03:05 > 0:03:09They talk about Philippe having "le gout abominable", the abominable taste,
0:03:09 > 0:03:10for sleeping with men.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13Erm, so, they wouldn't necessarily have assumed that just
0:03:13 > 0:03:16because he was sleeping with the Chevalier he couldn't have
0:03:16 > 0:03:17a functional relationship with Henriette.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20But, that said, his relationship with Henriette was not
0:03:20 > 0:03:22a wildly successful one.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24They were both kind of as bad as each other in terms
0:03:24 > 0:03:26of sleeping with other people.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29Erm, Henriette actually seduced one of Philippe's old partners,
0:03:29 > 0:03:31the Comte de Guise, to kind of get back at him.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34To what extent is the Catholic Church turning a blind eye
0:03:34 > 0:03:37to Philippe and his cross-dressing and his affairs with men?
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Or are they rather upset about this? Is this a problem?
0:03:40 > 0:03:42Erm, well, it is against French law, for sure,
0:03:42 > 0:03:44and it is condemned by the Church.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47In this period generally, unless there's a compelling political reason
0:03:47 > 0:03:50that you have to take notice that sex between men is going on,
0:03:50 > 0:03:52they'd really rather not.
0:03:52 > 0:03:56- Don't ask, don't tell.- Exactly.- And, of course, you can't prove anything.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59The only proof that you ever have of a relationship is the child, really.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02So, no-one's actually going to prove that they're not just having a chat in his bedroom.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06- Having a chat!- Having a chat.- It's a lovely euphemism.- Playing chess.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08So, Philippe's got this really quite moving plight
0:04:08 > 0:04:12because he's clever, he's interesting, he's an amazing war leader.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16He's clearly charismatic, and yet he can't really put his talents to any use at all.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Yeah, I mean, we see, in this episode, him begging Louis to go to war
0:04:19 > 0:04:22and that was something that kind of happened again and again.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25He had to really kind of persuade his brother to let him have a role in doing anything.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28- Louis wasn't keen for Philippe... - Because he was so jealous.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31Yeah. He wasn't keen for Philippe to get any kind of military glory.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35- He had everything and he didn't want his brother to have a single little thing.- Exactly.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37And, on that note, I think we should probably leave it there
0:04:37 > 0:04:40cos we're running out of time, but join us next week,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43when we'll have much more glorious, wonderful French history for you.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45And, hopefully, more interesting insights into Louis
0:04:45 > 0:04:48- and the drama you've seen tonight. Bonsoir.- Bonsoir.- Bonsoir.