0:00:16 > 0:00:19Few people come closer to personifying the best
0:00:19 > 0:00:23of British film than Sir Richard Attenborough.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25He's directed, produced and starred
0:00:25 > 0:00:29in some of our finest and most enduring movies.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33A true giant of British cinema.
0:00:33 > 0:00:37It was, of course, as an actor that he made his name,
0:00:37 > 0:00:42starring in classics like Brighton Rock, The Cruel Sea,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46I'm All Right, Jack and The Great Escape.
0:00:46 > 0:00:52But the early days also saw him take on the role of roving BBC reporter.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56Here he is in the 1956 programme, Talk Of Many Things,
0:00:56 > 0:00:58interviewing the renowned producer,
0:00:58 > 0:01:04Michael Balcon, about his leaving Ealing Studios.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08This must be a very sad occasion for you, Sir Michael.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Yes, of course, it's sad parting with a place
0:01:11 > 0:01:15- which has been almost a home for such a long time.- Yes.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18But it's like in life, you know, you can be happy in a home,
0:01:18 > 0:01:20sad in leaving it,
0:01:20 > 0:01:23- but there's a great excitement in finding a new one.- Quite so.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26There must be dozens of memories that come crowding in,
0:01:26 > 0:01:30perhaps of distinguished people who visited you during shooting.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Yes, over the years, of course,
0:01:33 > 0:01:37we've had visits from distinguished people in all walks of life.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40I suppose that on these occasions,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43everyone's mind turns to Royal visits
0:01:43 > 0:01:47and during the years, we were visited by the Queen
0:01:47 > 0:01:50when she was Princess Elizabeth, with Princess Margaret,
0:01:50 > 0:01:54the Duchess of Kent and, during the war, by King Haakon of Norway,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57- and many, many distinguished guests. - Yes.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00What about the actual making of the films,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03are there any memories there that stick out more than any others?
0:02:03 > 0:02:07When you asked me that, I feel exactly like Mr Chips,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11because so many memories crowd through one's mind.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15But I suppose the most exciting time in film production
0:02:15 > 0:02:19is that time when you see your films assembled for the first time.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Does this apply to any one film in particular, do you think?
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Yes, I think so, I think perhaps to The Cruel Sea,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30because when we saw that, for the first time,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33we realised that we really had brought it all.
0:02:33 > 0:02:38It seemed to just gel and be absolutely right
0:02:38 > 0:02:40and sometimes you don't get that.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43The Cruel Sea was an enormous success throughout the world,
0:02:43 > 0:02:46but particularly so in America, for a British film, wasn't it?
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Yes, it was successful and indeed it was successful in America, too.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52That brings us to the burning question, sir,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54of British films in America.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57Do you think there's any possibility of our films getting anything like
0:02:57 > 0:03:00the same sort of showing over there as the American films have here?
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Well, you know, I must oversimplify my reply,
0:03:03 > 0:03:06because we've enjoyed prestigious success over there,
0:03:06 > 0:03:09and we've had specialised distribution of our films.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11But I suppose we've not had the wider showings
0:03:11 > 0:03:14and of course we'd all like that very much indeed.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Yes. You're going to America very shortly?
0:03:16 > 0:03:20Yes, because The Night My Number Came Up is playing over there now
0:03:20 > 0:03:22and in a few weeks' time, we're opening up with The Ladykillers.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Ah! Now, The Ladykillers, a lot of people have said
0:03:25 > 0:03:28that The Ladykillers was the last film made
0:03:28 > 0:03:32and coming out of these studios, but that's by no means the case.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35No, indeed not, because we have, here,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38The Feminine Touch with Belinda Lee,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41we have "Who Done It?" with television's own comedian,
0:03:41 > 0:03:45Benny Hill, and, of course, we've got The Long Arm with Jack Hawkins.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47Well, thank you very much indeed for allowing us to come
0:03:47 > 0:03:49and visit you here on your last day.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53And I am sure I am speaking for all the artists who have worked here
0:03:53 > 0:03:56and the many thousands of people who have had such joy from Ealing films
0:03:56 > 0:04:00when I wish you as happy and successful a new tenancy
0:04:00 > 0:04:02in your new home as you've had here.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05Thank you. That's most charming of you.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08- Really charming.- Bye-bye.- Goodbye. - Bye-bye.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11In the late '50s, Attenborough took to producing,
0:04:11 > 0:04:16setting up the Beaver Films company with his friend, Bryan Forbes.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20Their first project was the film The Angry Silence,
0:04:20 > 0:04:25which he discusses here with David Coleman on a programme called
0:04:25 > 0:04:28Richard Attenborough's Personal Cinema.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36I was very intrigued as a journalist with your first film,
0:04:36 > 0:04:39The Angry Silence, which seemed to me to be a piece of pure reporting.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43Yes, I think it was, I don't know about PURE reporting, David...
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Perhaps pure is too strong, but a piece of reporting.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Absolutely, I agree. I think that sort of attitude,
0:04:48 > 0:04:50that new attitude influenced us a great deal,
0:04:50 > 0:04:53certainly influenced Bryan in the writing of the script,
0:04:53 > 0:04:55Bryan Forbes and the writing of the script
0:04:55 > 0:04:57and I think also television had an enormous effect.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59The fact that you saw...
0:04:59 > 0:05:02It was, as you say, a semi-documentary story
0:05:02 > 0:05:04dealing with an industrial dispute,
0:05:04 > 0:05:07and the fact that you saw that actually happening on television
0:05:07 > 0:05:11necessitated a realism which had never been considered
0:05:11 > 0:05:14that necessary before in movies.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17In the clip that we're going to see, the man, Tom,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21the part I played, which isn't my scene, really -
0:05:21 > 0:05:24I have chosen it for Pier Angeli - but the man has been ostracised,
0:05:24 > 0:05:28he's been involved in a dispute and he was secretary of the football club
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and there's now the question of there might be trouble
0:05:31 > 0:05:34with the football club and the whole future of the football club,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37if he remains the secretary.
0:05:38 > 0:05:42You see, I'm a bit worried about fixtures an' that.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44In what way?
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Well, apparently, I mean, you know more about it than I do,
0:05:47 > 0:05:51but a couple of the matches had to be scrubbed, didn't they?
0:05:51 > 0:05:55Well, the team's got a bit anxious or something.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57I see. And?
0:05:57 > 0:05:59Well, the reason they picked me to tell you,
0:05:59 > 0:06:01it's because I live here, I suppose.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Tell me what?
0:06:04 > 0:06:07They want you to take a back-seat.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Joe has been telling me some news. Haven't you, Joe?
0:06:14 > 0:06:18Really? Did he make sure all the doors were locked first?
0:06:18 > 0:06:21You never know, do you, Joe, somebody might be spying on you.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24They might find out that you've actually spoken to Tom Curtis.
0:06:24 > 0:06:25All right, all right.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28No, it's not all right, it's not all right. He can't have it both ways
0:06:28 > 0:06:30and if you won't tell him, I will.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32He can't talk to you at work, he can't talk to you here.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35- He had something special to say. - Like "How are you?" or "Goodbye".
0:06:35 > 0:06:38- Leave it, Annie, this is between Joe and me.- No, it's not, it's not.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41This is my house, too, and I have had all I can take from Mr Wallace.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46- Look, you'll wake the kids. - I'll wake the kids, I'll wake Mr Joe bloody Wallace, too.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Look, this is a home, not a morgue, people TALK in homes,
0:06:49 > 0:06:50they speak to each other.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52They say good morning and good night,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55they don't treat their friends like they've got a disease or something.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58What was so special he had to tell you tonight,
0:06:58 > 0:07:00he couldn't have told you this morning? What was so special?
0:07:00 > 0:07:04Look, you'd better look at me. You went out of this house this morning,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06you couldn't even bring yourself to say hello to me.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Let alone my husband.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11Well, I want to tell you something, I don't work at your rotten factory
0:07:11 > 0:07:14and I don't belong to your little committees and your little unions
0:07:14 > 0:07:17and nobody is going to send me to Coventry!
0:07:17 > 0:07:20I don't want you here, I don't want you near me or my children!
0:07:20 > 0:07:22I don't want you here in this house any more!
0:07:22 > 0:07:25- Look, Annie, shut up, will you? - You know something?
0:07:25 > 0:07:28I feel sorry for you, you can't even think for yourself.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Look, Annie, stop it. I'm sorry.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33Yes, you're sorry, you're sorry, you deserve your friends!
0:07:33 > 0:07:38SHE SPEAKS ITALIAN
0:07:41 > 0:07:44Pier's a marvellous actress, isn't she? I wish she did more.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Craig wrote the original story, actually, of the picture.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50- Dickie, that was your first venture as a producer, wasn't it?- Yes.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54- Or co-producer?- Yes, with Bryan Forbes, yes.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56Just before we talk about your latest one as a director,
0:07:56 > 0:08:01I suppose having gone away from acting, momentarily, almost,
0:08:01 > 0:08:05you have a new interest in the kind of circulation of a film?
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Yes, obviously the financial success of that picture
0:08:10 > 0:08:13was very important indeed to us, because it was our first time,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16it was made very cheaply, we all made it for nothing in fact,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19it was made for under £100,000, but nevertheless,
0:08:19 > 0:08:22it was breaking new ground and its success was very important.
0:08:22 > 0:08:28In fact, I remember, it was banned in South Wales, for a time.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32Many of the cinemas in South Wales, are miners' halls
0:08:32 > 0:08:34and the miners have a right to say what's shown in them,
0:08:34 > 0:08:36quite properly so.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39And, unfortunately, not having seen the film,
0:08:39 > 0:08:41a number of them got the wrong idea of it
0:08:41 > 0:08:45and certain members of the union executives and so on
0:08:45 > 0:08:48decided the film shouldn't be shown in their cinemas.
0:08:48 > 0:08:53But, so what we did, I went down to Aberdare and we took a cinema
0:08:53 > 0:08:58and showed the film and invited all the miners' union people
0:08:58 > 0:09:02and it resulted, in fact, not only in them showing the film
0:09:02 > 0:09:06throughout South Wales, but also presenting me with a miner's lamp!
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Ten years later, we find your first piece of direction now,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12and if I may say so, a very brave piece of direction,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15and a brave choice, in "Oh! What A Lovely War".
0:09:15 > 0:09:18How did this come about? How did you get the script in the first place?
0:09:18 > 0:09:22Well, I got it... The script was set up
0:09:22 > 0:09:27and the purchase from Joan Littlewood by Len Deighton and Brian Duffy
0:09:27 > 0:09:28and they worked with Johnny Mills,
0:09:28 > 0:09:30who was going to produce it at one time.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33And it was Johnny who suggested that I might like to direct it.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37He knew that I had been toying with the idea for some time, and when
0:09:37 > 0:09:39he rang me up and said he had got a script that he thought
0:09:39 > 0:09:42I might be interested in and told me what it was, I thought he was barmy,
0:09:42 > 0:09:46because, if anything was a theatrical conception,
0:09:46 > 0:09:48"Oh! What A Lovely War" was.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51But they had this marvellous idea of shifting it from a charade,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54from a Pierrot show, to a seaside pier
0:09:54 > 0:09:58and it really stands or falls on the songs
0:09:58 > 0:10:01that were sung by the men of those times, the accepted songs,
0:10:01 > 0:10:03but with the words that the men sang.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05And so in this little clip that we're going to see,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07which is part of a church service,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10you'll get the idea of the reality and fantasy.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14Let us pray.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Oh, God, show Thy face to us,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22as Thou didst with Thy Angel at Mons.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28The choir will now sing What A Friend We Have In Jesus
0:10:28 > 0:10:33as we offer a silent prayer for success in tomorrow's onslaught.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35ALL: Amen.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48# When this lousy war is over
0:10:48 > 0:10:51# (What a friend we have in Jesus)
0:10:51 > 0:10:54# No more soldiering for me
0:10:54 > 0:10:58# (All our sins and griefs to bear)
0:10:58 > 0:11:03# When I get my civvy clothes on
0:11:03 > 0:11:05# (What a privilege to carry)
0:11:05 > 0:11:09# Oh, how happy I shall be
0:11:09 > 0:11:12# (Everything to God in prayer)
0:11:12 > 0:11:17# No more church parades on Sunday
0:11:17 > 0:11:20# (Oh, what peace we often forfeit)
0:11:20 > 0:11:23# No more putting in for leave
0:11:23 > 0:11:26# (Oh, what needless pain we bear)
0:11:26 > 0:11:32# I shall kiss the sergeant major
0:11:32 > 0:11:34# (All because we do not carry)
0:11:34 > 0:11:42# How I'll miss him, how he'll grieve
0:11:42 > 0:11:49# Amen. #
0:11:51 > 0:11:54I think, as you may know, a month ago in this series,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56Lord Soper had one or two comments about this.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59He said he found it an absorbing presentation,
0:11:59 > 0:12:01I am quoting him here, full of wit,
0:12:01 > 0:12:05full of cinematic comprehension. He thought was exceptionally well done.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08He also criticised the cynicism of it,
0:12:08 > 0:12:10particularly in relation to the military commanders.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13What was your attitude towards it, was it an anti-war film?
0:12:13 > 0:12:15Did you set out to do that?
0:12:15 > 0:12:17Or what?
0:12:17 > 0:12:20Anti-war is an enormous statement, isn't it?
0:12:20 > 0:12:25I don't have Lord Soper's courage as a total pacifist,
0:12:25 > 0:12:29I admire pacifists very much indeed, I admire him
0:12:29 > 0:12:31and I think to try and down him on what he had to say
0:12:31 > 0:12:34without him being here to answer would be a little unfair.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38I do think it's very difficult to try and say
0:12:38 > 0:12:41that a film should have something which it never set out to have.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44I mean, I didn't intend to make a film
0:12:44 > 0:12:48which tried to answer the problems of international relations
0:12:48 > 0:12:50and war and so on.
0:12:50 > 0:12:55We made a film which was an expose, a comment upon the First World War
0:12:55 > 0:12:59and upon the attitudes that applied at that particular time.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03And, certainly, we do pillory the commanders,
0:13:03 > 0:13:08but we also pillory the international statesmen,
0:13:08 > 0:13:10we also pillory the public,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13who at the mere SOUND of the offer of a truce,
0:13:13 > 0:13:17howled it down, and were screaming for German blood
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and so on, but I think the film applies very particularly
0:13:20 > 0:13:24to the 1914-18 war, I don't think you could have made the same sort of film
0:13:24 > 0:13:29about the Second World War and I think cynicism in its attitude,
0:13:29 > 0:13:33although it applied then also, is very much something of our time.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36It's a way in which we're dealing with certain problems
0:13:36 > 0:13:39and although I think obviously you've got to supply something
0:13:39 > 0:13:43to take its place, you can't necessarily do both at the same time.
0:13:43 > 0:13:48You've grown up with the film industry, really, nearly 30 years.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Yes, 1941, 28 years, 29 years.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53There has been a change of course in that time,
0:13:53 > 0:13:56the old ballyhoo of the individual stars has disappeared,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00- the old gloss and so on, do you approve of this?- Yes, very much so.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02I mean, I think the film has grown up.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06Far be it that we shouldn't have escapist entertainment,
0:14:06 > 0:14:10which is an enormous part of the film industry's job,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13but I do think also that if it's to be worthy
0:14:13 > 0:14:16of the genius of its invention, then it must also make
0:14:16 > 0:14:19some further contribution and I believe now
0:14:19 > 0:14:22that it's beginning to do so. I am very excited by movies, I adore them.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26- You still get real pleasure in them? - Oh, yes, oh, yes.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Oh, colossal, absolutely tremendous.
0:14:29 > 0:14:31I mean, there are so many new things happening all the time,
0:14:31 > 0:14:34the excitement of merely going on to new subjects,
0:14:34 > 0:14:36but there are so many new developments coming
0:14:36 > 0:14:39and exciting new talents and to be involved in that...
0:14:39 > 0:14:44I wake up every day a supremely happy and excited and joyful man,
0:14:44 > 0:14:48and to be paid into the bargain and have a lovely house and home,
0:14:48 > 0:14:51wife and children, marvellous.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54You don't find directing overlapping with acting? Getting in the way?
0:14:54 > 0:14:57It's a problem, David, and when you go back to acting,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00it's a damn sight more difficult than I thought it was, I tell you!
0:15:00 > 0:15:03Richard Attenborough was by now a key figure
0:15:03 > 0:15:06in the British film industry. Away from the film set,
0:15:06 > 0:15:09he indulged in a lifetime passion for football
0:15:09 > 0:15:12and, in particular, Chelsea.
0:15:12 > 0:15:17Something he discussed with Frank Bough on Grandstand in 1969.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20Let me ask you first of all what it means to you
0:15:20 > 0:15:23to be at Stamford Bridge watching Chelsea on a Saturday afternoon?
0:15:23 > 0:15:28Well, more than a week in the Bahamas, certainly, I mean...
0:15:28 > 0:15:30I find it the most extraordinary...
0:15:33 > 0:15:35Well, if I have had a terrible week,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38if I have been working every day in the studios
0:15:38 > 0:15:40and there are a vast number of problems,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43particularly since I have been in production,
0:15:43 > 0:15:47I can go to a game at the Bridge on Saturday afternoon
0:15:47 > 0:15:50with maybe a thumping headache and the cares of the world
0:15:50 > 0:15:54on my shoulder, supposedly, and at the end of the game, they've gone.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58I find it the most extraordinary period of relaxation.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01It has all its own tensions, of course,
0:16:01 > 0:16:06but I would give up anything to watch a marvellous football game,
0:16:06 > 0:16:08obviously particularly if Chelsea are playing.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11I was listening recently to a television speech
0:16:11 > 0:16:13by Sir Laurence Olivier, a member of your profession,
0:16:13 > 0:16:15a man who's also a Chelsea supporter,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18and he was rhapsodising about Bobby Tambling,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21actually mentioned his name in the same breath as Margo Fonteyn.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Do you think there's really some connection and some relationship
0:16:24 > 0:16:27between the theatre and films and football?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Yes, when somebody asked me,
0:16:30 > 0:16:35when I was first paid the honour of being asked
0:16:35 > 0:16:38to go onto the Chelsea board, somebody said,
0:16:38 > 0:16:42"What do you think you've got to contribute?" And I said,
0:16:42 > 0:16:44"I really don't know what I have to contribute,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47"I know what I would LIKE to contribute
0:16:47 > 0:16:50"and I have obviously certain views about the game and about the club
0:16:50 > 0:16:56"and about the way we should handle paying customers and so on,"
0:16:56 > 0:16:59but I also said that I think if I have anything to contribute
0:16:59 > 0:17:03as far as the team is concerned, as far as the boys are concerned,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06is that playing a game...
0:17:06 > 0:17:10And when you're in this particular group of teams
0:17:10 > 0:17:14at the top of the First Division, it applies particularly,
0:17:14 > 0:17:16playing a game is like a first night.
0:17:16 > 0:17:21You have all the nerves, all the tensions, all the apprehensions,
0:17:21 > 0:17:25and you're going out to give a performance, to give a show,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28to display your skills.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31And in exactly the same way
0:17:31 > 0:17:36that all those fears crowd in on an actor just before he goes on stage,
0:17:36 > 0:17:40those same fears and nervousness'
0:17:40 > 0:17:42must apply as far as a player is concerned
0:17:42 > 0:17:45and therefore I would understand, I think,
0:17:45 > 0:17:50a degree of temperament which perhaps seems a little strange to somebody
0:17:50 > 0:17:53who has not experienced that...
0:17:53 > 0:17:57reaction to appearing before hundreds or thousands of people.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59Do you think Chelsea will break the Northern monopoly
0:17:59 > 0:18:01and win something this season?
0:18:01 > 0:18:03Gosh, wouldn't it be marvellous? I'm not sure
0:18:03 > 0:18:06whether it would as far as you're concerned, but for all of us
0:18:06 > 0:18:08down south here, it certainly would. I think,
0:18:08 > 0:18:13too many times... It's 1955 since we won the league, the championship,
0:18:13 > 0:18:16we've been in more semifinals in the last three or four years
0:18:16 > 0:18:20than any other team, one final, and I really do think...
0:18:20 > 0:18:24I sort of smell that something is going to happen this season.
0:18:24 > 0:18:29- You'll be there, will you? - Oh, boy, will I be there!
0:18:29 > 0:18:35In 1976, Attenborough was knighted for his services to British cinema.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38One has to say, one feels very honoured.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41I mean, I have to say that I think the predominant feeling
0:18:41 > 0:18:44is one of surprise, astonishment even.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47I don't think it was in my mind at all.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51I suppose, rather strange, when I came in just now when you said,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54"Good afternoon, Sir Richard," I mean,
0:18:54 > 0:18:58it does sound very strange indeed. I suppose one will get used to it.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02In 1982, Sir Richard completed work on Gandhi,
0:19:02 > 0:19:06a film he had spent 18 years trying to make.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10Starring Ben Kingsley as the man who led India to independence,
0:19:10 > 0:19:13it wasn't obvious Hollywood material,
0:19:13 > 0:19:15but Attenborough's passion for the project
0:19:15 > 0:19:18and his instinct for a good story
0:19:18 > 0:19:21ultimately lead to it winning eight Oscars,
0:19:21 > 0:19:25including Best Picture and Director.
0:19:25 > 0:19:29A month before that triumph, Attenborough was discussing the film
0:19:29 > 0:19:34and his life in front of an audience in London's Southbank.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47- Thank you, David, very much. - You're very welcome.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50So, Gandhi, finally on the screen after all those years.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55It's had terrific box office receipts, it had marvellous notices,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58foreign press awards, Academy Award nominations,
0:19:58 > 0:20:00is there one single response
0:20:00 > 0:20:02that's particularly thrilled you to the whole film?
0:20:04 > 0:20:09Well, yes, I suppose the Martin Luther King Peace Award,
0:20:09 > 0:20:14which I was given in Atlanta a few weeks ago
0:20:14 > 0:20:18by Martin Luther King's widow, Coretta Scott King,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21which is an award given by the trustees
0:20:21 > 0:20:27of the Martin Luther King Centre for Nonviolent...
0:20:27 > 0:20:30the whole research of nonviolence.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32It isn't given automatically to a film?
0:20:32 > 0:20:34No, no, no, it's...
0:20:36 > 0:20:39..it's the first time that a European or a movie
0:20:39 > 0:20:42has been given that award, and I think
0:20:42 > 0:20:46since the whole basis of the Gandhi film is that of nonviolence,
0:20:46 > 0:20:52one could scarcely wish for a better seal of approval, as it were.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55You mentioned there that Gandhi as a project had been bubbling along
0:20:55 > 0:20:58underneath what you've been doing since 1962.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00Is it fair to say that you might have thought of
0:21:00 > 0:21:04virtually all the films that you had directed before then
0:21:04 > 0:21:06as a preparation for Gandhi, as a kind of tryout?
0:21:06 > 0:21:10Well, they certainly turned out to be.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14I'm not sure that it's fair to say,
0:21:14 > 0:21:17either with, erm,
0:21:17 > 0:21:20Lovely War or indeed with Bridge Too Far,
0:21:20 > 0:21:26that they were conscious tryouts, maybe subconsciously they were.
0:21:26 > 0:21:30I mean, they turned out to be. I mean, I am absolutely certain...
0:21:30 > 0:21:33I would have been in a terrible mess with Gandhi
0:21:33 > 0:21:36if I had not done A Bridge Too Far, for instance.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40- The experience of that and the problems...- Handling huge scenes.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43Handling huge crowds, etc, etc...
0:21:43 > 0:21:45TRAIN WHISTLES
0:21:47 > 0:21:52The agents got a telegram and it just said, "He is coming."
0:21:52 > 0:21:54And then the time of the train.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02Who the hell is he?
0:22:02 > 0:22:04I don't know, sir.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Make way for the officer. Get back, you.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26Get back there. Move away.
0:22:26 > 0:22:32Out of the way, come on you!
0:22:32 > 0:22:34Who the devil are you?
0:22:34 > 0:22:37My name is Gandhi. Mohandas K Gandhi.
0:22:37 > 0:22:39Well, whoever you are, we don't want you here.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42I suggest you get back on that train before it leaves.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44They seem to want me.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48Now, look here, I will put you under arrest if you prefer.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50On what charge?
0:22:53 > 0:22:55I do not want any trouble.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58I am an Indian travelling in my own country,
0:22:58 > 0:23:00I see no reason for trouble.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04I know it was an Indian who brought the project to you originally,
0:23:04 > 0:23:08what were the first steps you took to try and set the film up,
0:23:08 > 0:23:14as someone who, then, in 1962, had no experience of directing?
0:23:14 > 0:23:17How did you go and TRY and get this thing off the ground?
0:23:17 > 0:23:22Well, the person who brought it to me was a marvellous...
0:23:22 > 0:23:27I say "little man" because he was a little man called Motilal Kothari,
0:23:27 > 0:23:33who had a burning desire to tell the world about Gandhi.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37He had left India
0:23:37 > 0:23:40shortly after Gandhi had been assassinated in '48,
0:23:40 > 0:23:44and he'd come to England because he married an English school teacher.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47And he worked at the High Commission in London
0:23:47 > 0:23:52and the whole concept, the whole idea of Gandhi was not mine, it was HIS.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57But, of course, he had nothing to do with the film industry,
0:23:57 > 0:23:59he didn't know anybody in the film industry
0:23:59 > 0:24:02and the various people he had gone to
0:24:02 > 0:24:04in the hope of setting the picture up
0:24:04 > 0:24:06hadn't seemed to be interested and therefore,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09he had come to me, not because I had ever directed a movie,
0:24:09 > 0:24:13but because people told him I might be interested in the content.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17But, obviously, since he knew nothing and he had no money,
0:24:17 > 0:24:22no backing, and I had no backing,
0:24:22 > 0:24:24I had no experience at all as a director,
0:24:24 > 0:24:29and I didn't quite know where to go, but it did seem to me
0:24:29 > 0:24:32that the one thing I HAD to obtain
0:24:32 > 0:24:35was the approval of the Indian government.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38And so because of the way in which we serve,
0:24:38 > 0:24:41having met Lord Louis,
0:24:41 > 0:24:45the obvious person to go to, being the last Viceroy of India
0:24:45 > 0:24:48and a close friend of Gandhi's
0:24:48 > 0:24:52and a close friend of Pandit Nehru's, was Lord Louis.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56And, I went to him and asked him if he could help me
0:24:56 > 0:25:00and it was through him that I went to New Delhi
0:25:00 > 0:25:04and I met Pandit Nehru.
0:25:04 > 0:25:09Erm... The most charismatic, I think, man, that I've ever met in my life.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12I mean, I remember going in to see him at 8.30 on a Monday morning
0:25:12 > 0:25:17and he had marvellous ability which some people have, to persuade you,
0:25:17 > 0:25:20immediately, that you were the one person on Earth
0:25:20 > 0:25:22that he wanted to meet at 8.30 on a Monday morning.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25Marvellous. I mean, a wonderful gift!
0:25:25 > 0:25:28And, er, before I went in, I remember...
0:25:28 > 0:25:31a marvellous man called SP Kanna,
0:25:31 > 0:25:34who was his secretary, and Mr Kanna said to me,
0:25:34 > 0:25:39"Mr Attenborough, you won't take longer, will you?
0:25:39 > 0:25:41"We've only allowed you 30 minutes.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45"So you won't spend more time than that in the Prime Minister's office, will you?
0:25:45 > 0:25:47"Because it's the beginning of the day
0:25:47 > 0:25:49"and if you get behind, everybody'll be behind."
0:25:49 > 0:25:51So I said, "No, of course not."
0:25:51 > 0:25:54And I went in, as I say, and met this extraordinary man
0:25:54 > 0:25:57in his Ghandi cap,
0:25:57 > 0:25:59and I sat opposite him at the desk
0:25:59 > 0:26:02and we started to talk about the project.
0:26:02 > 0:26:06After what I swear was no more than two and a half minutes,
0:26:06 > 0:26:09I looked at my watch and it was nine o'clock.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12So I started to get up.
0:26:12 > 0:26:14"Where are you going?" he said.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16I said, "It's nine o'clock."
0:26:16 > 0:26:19"No, no, no. Sit down, we haven't finished. Sit down."
0:26:19 > 0:26:22So I sat back down in my chair.
0:26:22 > 0:26:24In what I suppose was about half an hour later,
0:26:24 > 0:26:27a note came in with the Secretary and the Prime Minister looked at it.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29"Yes, yes, yes." But we went on talking.
0:26:29 > 0:26:36And after about three hours, we were literally sitting on the floor -
0:26:36 > 0:26:40he most gracefully and me most inelegantly -
0:26:40 > 0:26:43looking through picture albums.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46And he was telling me this anecdote and that anecdote and so on,
0:26:46 > 0:26:49and, erm, finally he said, "Well, of course, you must...
0:26:49 > 0:26:52"you must meet the Cabinet. You must meet everybody involved.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54"We'll give you every help you...you want,
0:26:54 > 0:26:56"and you must have total facilities,
0:26:56 > 0:26:58"and research facilities," and so on.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01"Oh, and, of course, you must meet my daughter!"
0:27:01 > 0:27:03And he picks up the phone and he says "Indira?
0:27:03 > 0:27:07"I'm sending an English actor up to have lunch.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10"Give him lunch, and then send them back to me."
0:27:10 > 0:27:12So I met Mrs Gandhi.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17At that time, she was no more than Pandit Nehru's daughter.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21She hadn't any political aspirations at all.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24And I met her, and I met the Cabinet members, and so on.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27And what was glorious, of course, was
0:27:27 > 0:27:30at the end of this little session, when I was to go to see Mrs Gandhi -
0:27:30 > 0:27:34he opened the door of his outer office
0:27:34 > 0:27:36where Mr Kanna was in a state. I mean...
0:27:36 > 0:27:38the place was like Piccadilly Circus!
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Like one of those terrible tube trains had opened
0:27:41 > 0:27:44and people sort of poured out on top of us.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46But it was a marvellous time.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49And, as I say, the film, really...
0:27:49 > 0:27:54Well, we've dedicated film to Moti Kothari, and to Lord Louis.
0:27:54 > 0:27:58Without... It would never have happened, without them.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00And, of course, to Pandit Nehru, too.
0:28:00 > 0:28:05Five years after Gandhi, came another critically acclaimed film
0:28:05 > 0:28:07which tackled actual and epic events -
0:28:07 > 0:28:09Cry Freedom,
0:28:09 > 0:28:12an examination of South Africa's apartheid system.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15It told the story of the activist Steve Biko
0:28:15 > 0:28:18and how the journalist Donald Woods
0:28:18 > 0:28:23exposed the truth about Biko's death to the whole world.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25Dickie, can we deal first of all with the biggest criticism
0:28:25 > 0:28:27that's so far been levelled against the film -
0:28:27 > 0:28:31that it misrepresents the friendship between Donald Woods and Steve Biko.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34There are people who are saying that in fact they were not close friends,
0:28:34 > 0:28:36that Biko was indeed using Donald Woods
0:28:36 > 0:28:39to get propaganda into the newspapers.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41How do you react to that?
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Well, I don't quite know where it comes from, Barry.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48Putting the most sinister interpretation on it,
0:28:48 > 0:28:50it is those who are opposed to the film in South Africa
0:28:50 > 0:28:53who have started this story.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55And so Sheila and I went to South Africa
0:28:55 > 0:28:59with the principal purpose of going to ask Mrs Biko, Steve's widow,
0:28:59 > 0:29:04whether she would approve of the film if we were able to make it?
0:29:04 > 0:29:06She said, not only did she approve of the film,
0:29:06 > 0:29:10but one of the principal reasons she would like the film made,
0:29:10 > 0:29:13was because Donald Woods was one of Steve Biko's very closest friends.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17Now, coming from the widow, that seems fine, as far as I'm concerned.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20Can we move on to the casting of the film?
0:29:20 > 0:29:22You've got Denzel Washington as Steve Biko,
0:29:22 > 0:29:25and Kevin Kline as Donald Woods - two Americans.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27Now, did you choose them because they are well-known in America
0:29:27 > 0:29:31and therefore makes the film more accessible to an American audience,
0:29:31 > 0:29:34to have two well-known actors in the picture?
0:29:34 > 0:29:36Not at all. Absolutely, not at all.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39There was no pressure to cast an American,
0:29:39 > 0:29:41nor did I view it from that point of view.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44I just couldn't find the right person.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47If you are making a story about a massively charismatic figure,
0:29:47 > 0:29:49if you don't have that,
0:29:49 > 0:29:51then there's no story.
0:29:51 > 0:29:55And I, therefore, having remembered Soldier's Story -
0:29:55 > 0:29:58and knowing St Elsewhere, but primarily Soldier's Story -
0:29:58 > 0:30:01met Denzel Washington,
0:30:01 > 0:30:04and believed that if all else failed,
0:30:04 > 0:30:07he would be marvellous casting.
0:30:07 > 0:30:08And it did fail.
0:30:08 > 0:30:13I couldn't find an emigre or resident black South African actor.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16And the same, in a way, applied to Kevin Kline.
0:30:16 > 0:30:18Let's have a look at them -
0:30:18 > 0:30:21the charismatic Denzel Washington, and the composed Kevin Kline.
0:30:24 > 0:30:30A white South African, 41 years old, a newspaperman.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33Have you ever spent any time in the black township?
0:30:33 > 0:30:35I've been to many...
0:30:35 > 0:30:37No, don't be embarrassed.
0:30:37 > 0:30:38Except for the police,
0:30:38 > 0:30:42I don't think one white South African in 10,000 has.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46You see, we know how you live.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49We cut your lawns, we cook your food, clean your rubbish.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53How would you like to see how we live?
0:30:53 > 0:30:55The 90 percent of your fellow countrymen
0:30:55 > 0:30:59who have to get off your white streets at six o'clock at night.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01It must have been a temptation, Dickie, surely,
0:31:01 > 0:31:04just to have done the Steve Biko story.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07Because that has much more drama, in fact, than the Donald Woods story.
0:31:07 > 0:31:08Why didn't you do that?
0:31:08 > 0:31:12Was it because Donald Woods gives you a sort of uplifting ending?
0:31:12 > 0:31:14Whereas the death of Biko gives you a downbeat ending?
0:31:14 > 0:31:17You're absolutely right. I mean, I...
0:31:17 > 0:31:21as you know, I am a somewhat ageing male Mary Poppins, really.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24And I have total faith in the human spirit.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27And to make a film where the regime won,
0:31:27 > 0:31:31where the oppressive regime was victorious,
0:31:31 > 0:31:34in the murder of Steve Biko, would have been awful.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37What was the reaction from the African organisations there,
0:31:37 > 0:31:40because you had a discussion, I believe,
0:31:40 > 0:31:43with the Azanian People's organisation.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46Was that because they were critical of the idea of the film?
0:31:46 > 0:31:47Yes. AZAPO...
0:31:47 > 0:31:50Steve Biko's party was called a Black Consciousness movement,
0:31:50 > 0:31:52and that was banned.
0:31:52 > 0:31:57And then, ultimately, it was reformed under the title of AZAPO.
0:31:57 > 0:32:01And AZAPO feel that they are, quite properly,
0:32:01 > 0:32:04the guardians of Steve's credo, as it were.
0:32:04 > 0:32:06They, before they'd read the script or seen the film,
0:32:06 > 0:32:09for some reason or other, decided
0:32:09 > 0:32:11that they were going to condemn it,
0:32:11 > 0:32:13and that it didn't display the correct attitudes,
0:32:13 > 0:32:16didn't define Biko correctly, and so on.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19Ultimately, they not only read the script
0:32:19 > 0:32:21as did many, many, many advisers,
0:32:21 > 0:32:25from the whole spectrum of parties and individuals
0:32:25 > 0:32:27and friends of Steve's,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30but they read the script and indeed they saw the film,
0:32:30 > 0:32:32and, fortunately, they have now formally
0:32:32 > 0:32:35not only withdrawn their criticisms - on any level -
0:32:35 > 0:32:39but have said that they think the film is quite remarkably accurate
0:32:39 > 0:32:43in portraying that period ten years ago in South Africa.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45What do you hope the film is going to achieve?
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Presumably, you haven't made it JUST as a piece of entertainment?
0:32:48 > 0:32:50I imagine you had some aim in mind.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52What was that?
0:32:54 > 0:32:57Well, Barry, I hope it is a piece of entertainment,
0:32:57 > 0:32:59because I think if you're working in the cinema
0:32:59 > 0:33:01and you don't make something that is "entertaining"
0:33:01 > 0:33:03then you shouldn't be in movies,
0:33:03 > 0:33:06you should be writing a book, or on a political platform or something.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08So I hope it's set in an entertainment context,
0:33:08 > 0:33:12but, equally, I would hope that...
0:33:12 > 0:33:15I mean, preaching to the converted is boring.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17There's no point in doing that.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21I want to reach the unknowing, the uncaring, and even the antagonistic.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24And I hope that - particularly the first two categories -
0:33:24 > 0:33:28at the end of the movie, when they come out,
0:33:28 > 0:33:31they would never again be able to dismiss
0:33:31 > 0:33:34the regime that exists as something that is none of their business,
0:33:34 > 0:33:37something that they needn't concern themselves with.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42That it IS our concern, and it is an insult to human dignity
0:33:42 > 0:33:46that such a regime should be set out
0:33:46 > 0:33:49within the legislated law of the land,
0:33:49 > 0:33:52and that that is something we should express,
0:33:52 > 0:33:55at least morally, our total condemnation of.
0:33:55 > 0:34:01Cry Freedom and Gandhi were both discussed in more detail in 2003
0:34:01 > 0:34:04in the Arena documentary called
0:34:04 > 0:34:07The Many Lives Of Richard Attenborough,
0:34:07 > 0:34:11that was released to mark the director's 80th birthday.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27We staged the funeral on the same date -
0:34:27 > 0:34:3130th of January - as it actually took place in 1948.
0:34:34 > 0:34:38We estimate there was something like 400,000 people there.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45Once the funeral cortege had started, it had to come.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48You couldn't stop it. You couldn't halt it.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51I collapsed at the end of the day.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54I mean, I was just totally, totally exhausted.
0:35:00 > 0:35:05Gandhi was nominated for 15 Oscars at the 1982 Academy Awards
0:35:05 > 0:35:08and won eight, including Best Picture
0:35:08 > 0:35:10and Best Director for Attenborough.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17It totally changed my career.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19The fact that Gandhi got all those Oscars
0:35:19 > 0:35:24and, as a result, did the sort of business that it did,
0:35:24 > 0:35:26suddenly meant that I was being offered pictures
0:35:26 > 0:35:30that would never prior to that time ever have come within my ken.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33The Oscars opened the doors.
0:35:33 > 0:35:37The fact that I was a double-Oscar winner
0:35:37 > 0:35:41was an entree into any studio office
0:35:41 > 0:35:43that I wanted to go into.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49CHANTING AND SINGING
0:35:50 > 0:35:54I don't believe that the vast majority of people
0:35:54 > 0:35:59around the world... I don't believe that they were aware
0:35:59 > 0:36:03of the depth of depravity and brutality
0:36:03 > 0:36:06that existed in South Africa.
0:36:06 > 0:36:10It was a really Nazi totalitarian regime.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17Stop! Stop right there!
0:36:18 > 0:36:21This is an illegal gathering.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24I'm giving you three minutes to disperse.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26Go home. Go home!
0:36:26 > 0:36:28I'm warning you!
0:36:29 > 0:36:33We were telling the story of life and the dangers and the cruelties
0:36:33 > 0:36:37and the violence that existed in South Africa.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41And the fact that that was self evidently a true story,
0:36:41 > 0:36:43a story that had to stand up to scrutiny
0:36:43 > 0:36:46as to its credibility and truth.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48I believe it was very surprising.
0:36:48 > 0:36:53And, I hope, made its contribution towards the end of apartheid.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02AUTOMATIC WEAPON FIRE
0:37:02 > 0:37:05SHOUTING AND SCREAMING
0:37:07 > 0:37:11SCREAMING AND GUNFIRE
0:37:20 > 0:37:23SCREAMING AND GUNFIRE CONTINUES
0:37:29 > 0:37:31They were frightened of the truth, really.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34They were frightened that I might, in fact,
0:37:34 > 0:37:39have an ability to be able to question their behaviour,
0:37:39 > 0:37:41and to demonstrate
0:37:41 > 0:37:43that it was obscene.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45And that it was unacceptable.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48And, er, beyond the pale.
0:37:48 > 0:37:54And I suppose that a film-maker is capable of doing that sort of thing.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59MUSIC: Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika
0:38:00 > 0:38:05Although Biko was this famous, celebrated, extraordinary figure,
0:38:05 > 0:38:09there dozens and dozens and dozens of other people
0:38:09 > 0:38:12who were similarly hanged or murdered or whatever.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16So I simply wanted to say at the end
0:38:16 > 0:38:19what you have seen is typical of life
0:38:19 > 0:38:22under apartheid in South Africa.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26Look, here are X number of people. So without comment, merely...
0:38:26 > 0:38:30HE HUMS "NKOSI SIKELEL' IAFRIKA"
0:38:34 > 0:38:36..we simply rolled those names
0:38:36 > 0:38:39and the phoney reasons
0:38:39 > 0:38:41set against each name as to how
0:38:41 > 0:38:44the police described their deaths.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46I think that is as poignant
0:38:46 > 0:38:49as anything in the movie, quite honestly.
0:38:49 > 0:38:50I always intended to do that.
0:38:57 > 0:38:59Despite his years,
0:38:59 > 0:39:03Sir Richard would carry on working throughout the '90s,
0:39:03 > 0:39:06directing acclaimed films like Chaplin and Shadowlands
0:39:06 > 0:39:10and acting in Steven Spielberg's Jurassic Park.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13He was made Lord Attenborough in 1993,
0:39:13 > 0:39:16and he was also president of RADA,
0:39:16 > 0:39:20BAFTA and even the Chelsea Football Club.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22Somehow, at the same time,
0:39:22 > 0:39:24he carved himself a reputation
0:39:24 > 0:39:28as one of the best-loved and respected figures
0:39:28 > 0:39:30the British film industry has ever known.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34The nation's favourite luvvie.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38He's a man who looked for the good in everything, and everyone,
0:39:38 > 0:39:39so when someone once said,
0:39:39 > 0:39:42"The problem with Attenborough
0:39:42 > 0:39:46"is that substance matters much more to him than style!"
0:39:46 > 0:39:48Attenborough simply called it
0:39:48 > 0:39:52"The most charming compliment that I could ever have been given."