0:00:15 > 0:00:19She hates the phrase "national treasure",
0:00:19 > 0:00:22so how does one describe Dame Judi Dench?
0:00:22 > 0:00:26She's been called ridiculously talented, inspirational,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29a shining star and a tough old boot.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34One of Britain's best and best-loved actresses,
0:00:34 > 0:00:38Dame Judi's extraordinary career began in the 1960s when she joined
0:00:38 > 0:00:44the Old Vic Company and was immediately recognised as a considerable talent.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47However, mastering Shakespeare and the classics wasn't enough.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Judi Dench always craved variety
0:00:49 > 0:00:55and here we see her in 1968 captured by BBC cameras as she was
0:00:55 > 0:00:58creating the role of Sally Bowles in the original
0:00:58 > 0:01:00London production of the musical Cabaret.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09I was going to be a designer, put decor on costumes and things
0:01:09 > 0:01:12and then... I was quite determined to be that.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16My brother was older than me, I was at Stratford at the moment,
0:01:16 > 0:01:17he went to Central.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21And I suppose I kind of got it like a disease in a way, from him a bit.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25So I just, kind of, overnight, thought, "I'll have a go at the other."
0:01:25 > 0:01:28I wasn't staged or frightfully burning to...
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Mind you, at The Mount, at my school,
0:01:30 > 0:01:34I'd had a marvellous teacher called Kathleen McDonald,
0:01:34 > 0:01:38who was at the Young Vic School and who was wonderful.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40But I didn't take it all that seriously,
0:01:40 > 0:01:44I was a, kind of, enthusiastic schoolgirl, do you know?
0:01:44 > 0:01:47And the person who really, erm,
0:01:47 > 0:01:52really made a big difference, was Dicky Hudd at Central.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54In my third year, Dicky Hudd said to me,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58"Michael Benthall wants to see you at the Old Vic."
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Well, I had a friend who had left Central then
0:02:00 > 0:02:02and was walking on at the Vic
0:02:02 > 0:02:05and I thought, "How marvellous, this is what I'd love to do,
0:02:05 > 0:02:07my ambition was to walk on at the Vic.
0:02:07 > 0:02:08And so I went along and saw him and he said,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12"Now, I want you to learn this speech from Hamlet...
0:02:12 > 0:02:14"of Ophelia."
0:02:14 > 0:02:16I did an audition and Michael said,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19"I'm going to take the most enormous gamble,
0:02:19 > 0:02:21"we'd like you to play Ophelia in Hamlet."
0:02:21 > 0:02:24And I just burst into tears, I'm afraid, I made a spectacle of myself.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27And he said, "I don't want you to tell anyone, though,"
0:02:27 > 0:02:31in fact, I didn't tell anyone for about six weeks
0:02:31 > 0:02:32that it was happening.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35The younger one is, and the more inexperienced,
0:02:35 > 0:02:36the less frightened one is.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42I've never been confident, I really get so frightened that
0:02:42 > 0:02:46I can't speak before the first night, I get paralysed with fear.
0:02:46 > 0:02:51But now I'm much more frightened than I was then, ten years ago.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53Much more frightened.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03I went up about a film, once,
0:03:03 > 0:03:05before I'd ever made a film
0:03:05 > 0:03:07and I went into a room and there were
0:03:07 > 0:03:12five big men there and they offered me a seat and nobody said anything.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15I said, "This time," I thought, "I won't ask any questions,"
0:03:15 > 0:03:18so I didn't, and this man looked at me for a long time
0:03:18 > 0:03:20and then he took a cigar out of his mouth and he said,
0:03:20 > 0:03:24"Miss Dench, you have every single thing wrong with your face."
0:03:25 > 0:03:27And I got up and I walked out of the room.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32And that was my first year of acting.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38And it died hard, I can tell you.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45AUDIENCE CHATTERS
0:03:46 > 0:03:48I'm more frightened, now.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52I suppose it's because one has a line of things behind one,
0:03:52 > 0:03:54one has ten years' experience and therefore...
0:03:56 > 0:04:00..you feel you've got to progress.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03You can't ever stand still, you can't go back,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07or at least you hope you won't stand still or go back, so you have...
0:04:07 > 0:04:10And also, you're aware of the mistakes that one can make.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13It's like building a house of cards.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16You know, when you get to the...
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Your hand starts to shake when you get up to the top.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39I do like the challenge of something new, I mean, that's why
0:04:39 > 0:04:44I've always wanted to do a musical and that's why I want to do it.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45And everyone, kind of, says,
0:04:45 > 0:04:47"Oh, get you," when I say a musical.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51but I want to have a go. I want to have a, you know,
0:04:51 > 0:04:54great big orchestra and everything and a bit of dancing
0:04:54 > 0:04:56and a bit of singing and a bit of acting.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00And a chorus, and all.
0:05:00 > 0:05:01I long for that.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Because that's a really different thing.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09I thought, "Oh, do a musical and a great big overture will strike up..."
0:05:09 > 0:05:13There isn't an overture in Cabaret, it's a long roll on a cymbal.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18That quest for new challenges would see this acclaimed
0:05:18 > 0:05:23stage actress surprise everybody when she decided to tackle
0:05:23 > 0:05:29the TV sitcom with her husband, Michael Williams, in A Fine Romance.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32The role led to this appearance on the Wogan show,
0:05:32 > 0:05:36which kicked off with one of the big questions.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38APPLAUSE
0:05:40 > 0:05:43They seem to like you and welcome you.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Why Judi with an I instead of with a Y?
0:05:46 > 0:05:50Because it's Judith and when I went to a drama school
0:05:50 > 0:05:52there was another Judi, as well,
0:05:52 > 0:05:55so they decided that they would just knock the 'th' off,
0:05:55 > 0:05:57so I became Judi and she was J-U-D-Y.
0:05:57 > 0:06:02- And you call your daughter Findy? - Finty.- Finty. What's that short for?
0:06:02 > 0:06:05That's just a nickname, she is really called Tara.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08LAUGHTER
0:06:08 > 0:06:10Well, it's a logical conclusion. Yes, quite.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12And so we call her Finty.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14We thought it was going to be a boy and we called him Finn,
0:06:14 > 0:06:18but it turned out to be a girl, so she was nicknamed Finty and that's stuck, now.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20So you're married to that fine actor, Michael Williams
0:06:20 > 0:06:23and you work together in A Fine Romance.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Is it that you can't bear to be away from each other?
0:06:25 > 0:06:27Well, you see, we do like working together
0:06:27 > 0:06:31and I do know where he is in the evening, too, that means.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34We like working together and I think that, for a lot of actors
0:06:34 > 0:06:38and actresses, maybe they don't work so well,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40but we seem to and I...
0:06:40 > 0:06:42We knew each other nine years before we were married
0:06:42 > 0:06:44so we're really old friends.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47The cliched question, I mean, when you fall out on the set
0:06:47 > 0:06:51or when you fall out at home, do you carry it on to the set or to the theatre...
0:06:51 > 0:06:53We've had a couple of tricky times, yes.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56We've had a couple of tricky times, when...
0:06:56 > 0:07:00I mean, we had a terrible row just before Christmas last year
0:07:00 > 0:07:02and it lasted a whole day, the row,
0:07:02 > 0:07:07and went on towards the evening and we were both going to
0:07:07 > 0:07:11the theatre together to a play, in a play together, Pack Of Lies.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13And we got into the car, took a taxi,
0:07:13 > 0:07:16and there was ice everywhere in the taxi,
0:07:16 > 0:07:18ice on the seats, ice from the ceilings,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21and we looked out of the various windows,
0:07:21 > 0:07:24although when he looked out that side, I looked out this side
0:07:24 > 0:07:28and I thought, "This is going to make a very tricky evening."
0:07:28 > 0:07:30And we came to a traffic jam in Shaftesbury Avenue
0:07:30 > 0:07:32and still sitting there and still not saying a word,
0:07:32 > 0:07:37a woman through the ceiling... Through the window, saw us
0:07:37 > 0:07:40and suddenly went, "A fine romance!"
0:07:40 > 0:07:43And we took it in turns to go, "Thank you very much indeed."
0:07:44 > 0:07:48- It didn't break till the next morning, the row.- The strain...
0:07:48 > 0:07:50- The strain is terrible, isn't it? - Emotional and thespian.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56Do people expect you to be like the character you play in A Fine Romance?
0:07:56 > 0:07:57They do expect us to be like that
0:07:57 > 0:08:00and they think that our lives at home are exactly like it,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04but I think that it's not at all like us,
0:08:04 > 0:08:06but I think that the appeal of it,
0:08:06 > 0:08:10and we certainly had no idea that it would be so appealing,
0:08:10 > 0:08:14the programme, but it's because it is more like real life in that
0:08:14 > 0:08:18life is more like having a dinner with somebody and thinking,
0:08:18 > 0:08:21"How lovely you are," and you find the spinach on your tooth
0:08:21 > 0:08:22or the egg all down your front.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25- Yes, it's that identification. - I mean, that... Yes.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29How do you feel, though, you are distinguished Shakespearean actress...
0:08:29 > 0:08:33That's a desperate cough you have up there, miss. I know how you feel.
0:08:33 > 0:08:37Now, a distinguished Shakespearean actress acting in O'Casey
0:08:37 > 0:08:41and marvellous plays, wonderful reviews and yet,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45to be best-known for a somewhat trivial television comedy.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48Yes, and a lot of people say to me, "Is this the first job you've had?"
0:08:48 > 0:08:51So it's very nice to reach an audience who don't want to
0:08:51 > 0:08:53come and see Shakespeare and don't want to come and see O'Casey
0:08:53 > 0:08:56but do want to sit and see you in their sitting-room.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59But don't you feel, "Is this what all my training has been about?"
0:08:59 > 0:09:02No, I don't. No, I don't. I like it a lot
0:09:02 > 0:09:05because I like to do something that is, that is the most
0:09:05 > 0:09:06unexpected thing and it was...
0:09:06 > 0:09:10I mean, a lot of people say, "Oh, you don't want to do a situation comedy,"
0:09:10 > 0:09:12and I thought, "That's exactly what I want to do."
0:09:12 > 0:09:14I mean, the moment somebody says,
0:09:14 > 0:09:17"Oh, that's rotten casting for a part,
0:09:17 > 0:09:22"she can't play Lady Bracknell," that, somehow, is the one thing I want.
0:09:22 > 0:09:23To want to play it.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27And when you're playing something comedy like this, they always
0:09:27 > 0:09:31say comedy is harder to play than serious stuff, do you find that so?
0:09:31 > 0:09:33Well, I laugh more doing serious stuff
0:09:33 > 0:09:36- than I do during the comedy. - Really?- Yes.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39I mean, the serious stuff, when you have to actually be very serious
0:09:39 > 0:09:42and something goes wrong, that is the...
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I've got myself into serious trouble for that.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Many, many things. I mean, in Mother Courage, which is, like,
0:09:48 > 0:09:53three and a half hours of dragging a cart round the station, not many laughs,
0:09:53 > 0:09:56and on about the last afternoon, two of the boys who were playing
0:09:56 > 0:09:59soldiers, I had to give a drink to and they used to give me money.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02And on the last afternoon, because they thought it was so funny,
0:10:02 > 0:10:05they gave me, instead of giving me the money,
0:10:05 > 0:10:09- they'd given me an American card... - Express...- Express, yes.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12So I didn't bat an eyelid about it,
0:10:12 > 0:10:16but between the two shows, I doctored the drink so that
0:10:16 > 0:10:19when they came and asked for the drink and threw it back,
0:10:19 > 0:10:21they had half water, half vinegar... cider vinegar.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23LAUGHTER
0:10:23 > 0:10:27And then, what was wonderful about it, why I...
0:10:27 > 0:10:29it actually rebounded on me,
0:10:29 > 0:10:31was that they had to actually come back and say,
0:10:31 > 0:10:33"We would like another drink," they have to say in the thing,
0:10:33 > 0:10:37"We want another drink," and I thought, well, "By all means." Here's the next.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41What about films, have you... You don't seem to have done too many?
0:10:41 > 0:10:43- No, I don't do it. Well, I'm not asked to do many.- Why not?
0:10:43 > 0:10:47Well, because I'm not what they want to look at.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49They just say... Ahh.
0:10:49 > 0:10:50AUDIENCE: Aww...
0:10:50 > 0:10:53They're not sympathising with you, they're saying, "Shame, shame."
0:10:53 > 0:10:55LAUGHTER
0:10:55 > 0:10:57Well, I think that sometimes about films,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00if you don't go in looking like the person you're meant
0:11:00 > 0:11:05to look like in the film, people perhaps don't cast you in that part,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09whereas in the theatre, you can fool a lot of people a lot of the time.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13You can look taller in the theatre and you can do amazing things
0:11:13 > 0:11:16to yourself that makes you actually not look like yourself at all.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20And I don't think they like to do that so much in films. They like to get someone who looks...
0:11:20 > 0:11:22But, I mean, you like what you look like,
0:11:22 > 0:11:24you have no hang-ups about that?
0:11:24 > 0:11:25I don't want to even talk about that.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26LAUGHTER
0:11:28 > 0:11:31Whilst Judi wasn't happy talking about her looks,
0:11:31 > 0:11:35she was happy talking about acting to
0:11:35 > 0:11:39Roy Plomley for his 1985 programme, Favourite Things.
0:11:39 > 0:11:44Nowadays, of course, an actress doesn't work in one medium.
0:11:44 > 0:11:49Which medium do you think you slot into most easily?
0:11:49 > 0:11:50The theatre, I think, Roy.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54I've been asked this question a lot of times and it's only now,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56really, having been asked it a lot of times,
0:11:56 > 0:11:58that I think it is the theatre,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00only because you get more chances to get it right.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03Also, this tremendous gift of the audience actually coming
0:12:03 > 0:12:06out of their homes and buying a ticket and coming to the theatre
0:12:06 > 0:12:10seems, to me, the reward of doing it back to them is very little to ask.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15So you certainly declare that acting is a favourite thing?
0:12:15 > 0:12:20Yes, acting is a favourite thing and a wonderful way of communicating.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23It only... Once, when we were doing Saint Joan at Nottingham,
0:12:23 > 0:12:26for some reason the dress rehearsal was delayed
0:12:26 > 0:12:29and we all got ready, we were already made up and everything
0:12:29 > 0:12:32and we were sitting in the green room, the sun was pouring in through
0:12:32 > 0:12:35the window and I suddenly looked round at all these grown people
0:12:35 > 0:12:39dressed in knitted chainmail and I thought, "This is absurd!
0:12:39 > 0:12:42"I don't know what I'm doing here." But I have to add, also,
0:12:42 > 0:12:45that I loved playing it and I was very happy in the production.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48But it was an absurdity, suddenly, to see
0:12:48 > 0:12:51these people when you could look out and see the ordinary,
0:12:51 > 0:12:55- sensible people going about their everyday work.- Yeah.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59But you can always accept your own illusion.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03I can't accept my own, but I hope other people will accept it.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07And I feel more comfortable when I'm dressed up as somebody else,
0:13:07 > 0:13:12being somebody else and talking, so I can't make a speech in public.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15If people were to say to me, "If you would come along as so-and-so
0:13:15 > 0:13:17and dress up in these clothes and wear a wig
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and look entirely different", I could perhaps do a speech,
0:13:20 > 0:13:24but I find it difficult to go along as myself.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27I don't find this difficult, because I'm talking to you as a friend
0:13:27 > 0:13:29and we're having a conversation.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34But I find the actual business of making a speech
0:13:34 > 0:13:39to a lot of people painfully difficult.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43After a strenuous performance, how long does it take you to relax
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and get back to reality?
0:13:45 > 0:13:49It doesn't take long at all with me.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51I find that Michael, when he comes home,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54he can't actually go to bed at the same time as I do
0:13:54 > 0:13:57because he's on such a high after it that he has to pad about the house,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00changing the pictures and pushing the furniture around.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03The thing I like best is to do two shows and then come back
0:14:03 > 0:14:07and watch the late-night movie. Vincent Price, I like...
0:14:07 > 0:14:09You know, The Fall Of The House Of Usher, I love it.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11I don't mind how many times I'll see it
0:14:11 > 0:14:15but I do find that is the most wonderful way of relaxing.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Yes, having done a couple of performances yourself,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21- you now sit down and watch somebody else give one.- Absolutely,
0:14:21 > 0:14:24and have the joy of being able to turn off if I want and go to bed, or...
0:14:24 > 0:14:27You know, I'd like to be able to do that sometimes,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30during the evening performance... of my own.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Dreadful, of course, if somebody walked out of the theatre,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37- that's the one person that you can see.- Yes.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40Yes, there was one moment in The Comedy Of Errors at Stratford
0:14:40 > 0:14:44when I didn't have anybody coming to the show that evening
0:14:44 > 0:14:48and I was not feeling very much like, I couldn't get the energy together.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52So I said to Michael and to Roger Rees and Nick Grace, I said,
0:14:52 > 0:14:53"I am doing it for the lady...
0:14:53 > 0:14:55I saw a lady, I'm doing it for this lady who is
0:14:55 > 0:14:58sitting in green on the second row on the right-hand side."
0:14:58 > 0:15:01And I played up a storm until suddenly we came back after
0:15:01 > 0:15:05- the interval and she'd left, so...- Oh, no.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09If you had to say what is your favourite thing of all,
0:15:09 > 0:15:10what would it be?
0:15:11 > 0:15:15It would have to be... If it's allowed, it would have to be that
0:15:15 > 0:15:19it isn't a thing at all, it's people that are the most favourite.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Because I, erm...
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I, you know,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27that thing of sharing jokes or sharing, even, experiences,
0:15:27 > 0:15:31or sharing a company together, or whatever, beats anything, really.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Beats pictures, or everything.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38This is one of the great things about the theatre,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41about show business, about the comradeship.
0:15:41 > 0:15:46I think so, and also very much about actors,
0:15:46 > 0:15:48because they are not...
0:15:48 > 0:15:51they are not bothered about...
0:15:51 > 0:15:56colour or creed or age or class or anything.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58It doesn't really mean anything.
0:15:58 > 0:16:04There's a kind of universal language and that's very important.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08Three years later, Dame Judi made a return to the Wogan show,
0:16:08 > 0:16:14this time sharing the sofa with another granddame, Margaret Rutherford.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16She talked about her debut as
0:16:16 > 0:16:18a theatre director for which she blamed Kenneth Branagh.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26Yes, now, your debut as director in Much Ado for Kenneth Branagh's
0:16:26 > 0:16:30Renaissance Theatre, was that... It must have been a tremendous challenge for you.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Is that something you wanted to do all the time, you've always
0:16:33 > 0:16:35- wanted to direct? - It wasn't at all.- No.
0:16:35 > 0:16:36It was an idea of Ken's
0:16:36 > 0:16:38and he came and I thought he was going to ask me
0:16:38 > 0:16:41to play a part and he didn't, he just asked, said, "Will you come
0:16:41 > 0:16:44"and direct a company and will you do Much Ado?"
0:16:44 > 0:16:47So I got the part, the...
0:16:47 > 0:16:50the job and the play all, kind of, in one go like that
0:16:50 > 0:16:53- and I couldn't say no, could I? - But do you like it?- So I did it.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57- Do you like directing? - I like a lot of it.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Ken Branagh says I'm bossy and schoolmarmish when I do it,
0:17:00 > 0:17:04but he's drunk with power, Ken Branagh, now, so he would say that.
0:17:04 > 0:17:05But, yes, I did like it, I loved it, I loved it.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07Do you like bossing people around on the stage?
0:17:07 > 0:17:09No, I didn't much like it, no,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12but I got quite cross when they did things that I said,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14"Please don't do this," and then they come on and do it.
0:17:14 > 0:17:19And then you come to something like a first night and, kind of,
0:17:19 > 0:17:20wrong stresses go on.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23It's like somebody saying, "You've GOT your watch on."
0:17:23 > 0:17:27It isn't, "You've GOT your watch on," it's, "You've got your WATCH on."
0:17:27 > 0:17:29Yeah. But newsreaders do that all the time, anyway,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32- on the television, the wrong emphasis.- But it's...
0:17:32 > 0:17:35So, the headmistress bit, I mean, are you conscious of it in yourself?
0:17:35 > 0:17:38No, it's not true. It's just getting a cheap laugh.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42- It's just mad Kenneth Branagh, is it?- It's power-mad Kenneth Branagh.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Yes, it's not true. We had a lot of laughs.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48I suppose I was quite bossy, but I learned a lot from it
0:17:48 > 0:17:51and I loved working with them all, I'm so proud of them.
0:17:51 > 0:17:56They're 15 of the really, the most talented young actors
0:17:56 > 0:17:57and actresses and... I would...
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Everybody must go and see them at the Phoenix.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04And what about you, we've seen you in so many tremendous parts,
0:18:04 > 0:18:07I mean, your Cleopatra was tremendously admired,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10a lot of what can only be described as unbridled passion on the stage.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13- A lot of that, yes.- Yes.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Much bruising.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Yes, there was a lot of bruising, you heard about that, did you?
0:18:18 > 0:18:22Yes, and nearly flying off into the audience a couple of times, yes.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25Just saved by the bell, I was.
0:18:25 > 0:18:26With that kind of a scene,
0:18:26 > 0:18:28I'm just interested in how you would play it,
0:18:28 > 0:18:31would that be all meticulously rehearsed and blocked out and everything?
0:18:31 > 0:18:37Well, Tony and I found out that when we work together, it was better...
0:18:37 > 0:18:42We said to Sir Peter Hall, "It's better if you don't tell us."
0:18:42 > 0:18:44To... where the...
0:18:44 > 0:18:46"Could we just have these moves very fluid,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48"so that I don't know what he's going to do
0:18:48 > 0:18:51"and he doesn't know what I'm going to do?" And that's what happened.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55So sometimes, Tony would come on from... I'd be looking one way
0:18:55 > 0:19:00and he'd come on from here, or vice versa. And so it was very, very exciting.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03- Do the roles take you over, I mean...- No.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07- They don't, I mean you don't walk around Sainsbury's as Cleopatra?- No.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09Tricky, actually, tricky shopping.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12Tricky shopping would be when you come to play Lady Macbeth round Sainsbury's.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14No, no, they don't at all.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16But that is, if I may say, that's the thing about you,
0:19:16 > 0:19:18that you are...
0:19:18 > 0:19:20and I don't mean to patronise,
0:19:20 > 0:19:26but a real person in the sense that you'll get these wonderful crits at night
0:19:26 > 0:19:29and then bingo, out you go shopping the following...
0:19:29 > 0:19:32- Because you're a housewife and mother as well, you see.- That's it.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34- That keeps your feet on the ground. - It certainly does.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38You've often said that you, you're not all that keen on film acting
0:19:38 > 0:19:41because you can end up as the face on the cutting room floor
0:19:41 > 0:19:44and that you haven't as much control over what you do.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48Yes, that's true, I mean, I feel I have no control over
0:19:48 > 0:19:50what I do at all on film.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53And erm, in fact, I know I haven't.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55I haven't seen any of the films I've done.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58- Not even...- Room With A View? I haven't seen that.
0:19:58 > 0:19:59No, I haven't seen anything.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02- Honestly, you'd like it if you saw it.- No, I wouldn't.
0:20:02 > 0:20:03No, I'd hate it, I expect.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Do you get embarrassed looking at yourself?
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Very embarrassed, I don't mind if I'm sitting at home and I can
0:20:08 > 0:20:11glance at it, but I get embarrassed sitting with a lot of people looking.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15- Well, we'll embarrass you, then. - Oh, no, Terry, please not...
0:20:15 > 0:20:17- I'd love to see this, there's a lovely little piece...- No!
0:20:17 > 0:20:20CHEERING
0:20:20 > 0:20:21Here it is, it's coming up now.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27One has always to be open, wide open. I think Miss Lucy is.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30- Open to what, Miss Lavish? - To physical sensation.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32I will let you into a secret, Miss Bartlett.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35I have my eye on your cousin, Miss Lucy Honeychurch.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37Oh, for a character in your novel, Miss Lavish?
0:20:37 > 0:20:41The young English girl transfigured by Italy.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43And why should she not be transfigured?
0:20:44 > 0:20:46It happened to the Goths.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47Is this...
0:20:47 > 0:20:50APPLAUSE
0:20:51 > 0:20:52It's a lovely line.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57You were just saying that you couldn't see that, anyway,
0:20:57 > 0:21:01- because you've forgotten your glasses.- Yes!
0:21:01 > 0:21:04Cinema roles were now becoming increasingly frequent.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08But in the early 1990s, Judi bucked expectations
0:21:08 > 0:21:13by taking on As Time Goes By, another TV sitcom,
0:21:13 > 0:21:17this time co-starring with Geoffrey Palmer.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20There wasn't much laughing in Judi's next role,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23but it was the one that, in terms of the cinema,
0:21:23 > 0:21:27catapulted her into the awareness of international audiences
0:21:27 > 0:21:33as James Bond's no-nonsense boss, M.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37And then came a lovely role for her, Mrs Brown,
0:21:37 > 0:21:39where her portrayal of a grieving
0:21:39 > 0:21:44and then smitten Queen Victoria had Hollywood suddenly enthralled.
0:21:44 > 0:21:48Here in the studio is Judi Dench, deservedly nominated for her
0:21:48 > 0:21:51portrayal of Queen Victoria in Mrs Brown.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53Judi, welcome and how did you feel
0:21:53 > 0:21:56when you'd heard you'd actually got an Oscar nomination?
0:21:56 > 0:21:58It's hard to put into words.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01It's hard to put into words what has happened to this film, for me.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04As you know, it was made for television,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07to go out last Easter on Easter Monday.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11And since that, it suddenly,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14thanks to Miramax, has...
0:22:14 > 0:22:16We've been to Cannes and we've been to...
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I've been to New York and Los Angeles and Dublin
0:22:19 > 0:22:23and Edinburgh and Glasgow and now I'm going to Los Angeles.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26I have a lot of bets against myself going
0:22:26 > 0:22:30and I've had to pay up on a few because of the nomination.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32What about Mrs Brown, was that an enjoyable experience for you?
0:22:32 > 0:22:37It was enjoyable from the second I said I was going to do it
0:22:37 > 0:22:41because of Billy, of course and because of John Madden and we'd work,
0:22:41 > 0:22:45you know, my calls used to be, like, at 4:45 in the mornings
0:22:45 > 0:22:47and you'd get in at about 9, have a bath,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51have something to eat and then while you sat listening to Billy
0:22:51 > 0:22:53telling jokes, you'd look at your watch, thinking,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56"Can I do this on three hours, can I actually play this part
0:22:56 > 0:23:00"tomorrow on three hours?" But, you know, no make-up for her, so, erm,
0:23:00 > 0:23:03I didn't have that. It wasn't too much of a problem that she
0:23:03 > 0:23:06looked pretty stressed in some of the scenes.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08It's your first real starring role in a movie, isn't it?
0:23:08 > 0:23:10It is, it is.
0:23:10 > 0:23:12Because you don't like films much, do you?
0:23:12 > 0:23:14I don't know the business of it.
0:23:14 > 0:23:19I really rely very, very, very much on the director
0:23:19 > 0:23:21as I do in the theatre,
0:23:21 > 0:23:24but I'm very, very unsure of myself in the movies, very.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Has the Oscar nomination made any difference, I mean,
0:23:26 > 0:23:29are you suddenly much more confident about the movies?
0:23:29 > 0:23:31No, it has made me very, very excited
0:23:31 > 0:23:36and I'm extremely surprised about it and I shall enjoy every minute of it.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39- All that razzmatazz. - Well, that will be a very,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41very great acting feat for me,
0:23:41 > 0:23:45is to be able to control myself enough to look very, very calm
0:23:45 > 0:23:48and poised that night and not
0:23:48 > 0:23:51be over-excited about who I'm looking at.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55- You're not starstruck, are you? - I'm totally. Yes, I love it.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57Look at you, I mean, I'm delighted to be talking to you.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Well, I'm delighted to be talking to you, but that's...
0:24:00 > 0:24:02I am, I'm afraid, yes.
0:24:02 > 0:24:04You make it all sound as if this is terribly novel
0:24:04 > 0:24:07but, I mean, you've got the Golden Globe, of course, for the same role.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09What do you think of your chances?
0:24:09 > 0:24:11I don't expect to win it, I really, genuinely don't.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15How can you compare, you haven't even seen any of your rivals' performances, have you?
0:24:15 > 0:24:18I haven't, no, it's terrible. I will, though, I will go and see...
0:24:18 > 0:24:19Yes, Judi, thank you very much
0:24:19 > 0:24:22and all the very best of luck on Monday week.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24Thank you very much indeed.
0:24:25 > 0:24:30Judi didn't win that year, but she did win the following year.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33An eight-minute performance in Shakespeare In Love
0:24:33 > 0:24:37resulting in the Best Supporting Actress Oscar.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39She was 64.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42The following years were a mix of triumph and tragedy -
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Judi lost her beloved husband, Michael, to cancer.
0:24:47 > 0:24:51Professionally, however, she seemed unstoppable,
0:24:51 > 0:24:54gathering five more Oscar nominations.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56It was an extraordinary record
0:24:56 > 0:24:59and something that director, Richard Eyre, tried to explore
0:24:59 > 0:25:02when he interviewed her in 2002.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06Judi, you've had a stream of successes recently in films,
0:25:06 > 0:25:11from Mrs Brown, Shakespeare In Love, Iris and recently Bond films,
0:25:11 > 0:25:15but most of your career you've spent in the theatre.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18And I'd say, "Now that you're at your peak,"
0:25:18 > 0:25:23but you could say that you've been at your peak for 40 years,
0:25:23 > 0:25:25but do you think you've got better?
0:25:25 > 0:25:28Oh, I can't...
0:25:28 > 0:25:32I absolutely can't answer that question because I have no...
0:25:32 > 0:25:35no kind of degree of self-judgment, really.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38Somebody came round after The Breath Of Life and said,
0:25:38 > 0:25:40"How did you feel about this evening?"
0:25:40 > 0:25:43I said, "I'm sorry, but that's a question I should ask you,
0:25:43 > 0:25:44"not you should ask me."
0:25:44 > 0:25:48I'm not, I'm... I think sometimes when actors think that they've given,
0:25:48 > 0:25:50perhaps, a good performance,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52they may have given the worst performance of their lives,
0:25:52 > 0:25:54I don't think we're good at judging.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57Why would they have given the worst performance of their lives?
0:25:57 > 0:26:00Well, I don't think necessarily we're the best people to judge,
0:26:00 > 0:26:03- this side of the footlights, for instance.- But...
0:26:03 > 0:26:07And as I don't see any films I do, or very, very rarely,
0:26:07 > 0:26:10I haven't seen Room With A View and I haven't seen Chocolat and I haven't
0:26:10 > 0:26:13seen The Shipping News and I haven't seen Die Another Day...
0:26:13 > 0:26:15I'm not good at judging anyway, then.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18So, the bit of both,
0:26:18 > 0:26:23the paradox about acting, is that it's a perfect balance
0:26:23 > 0:26:28between being conscious of yourself and not being self-conscious
0:26:28 > 0:26:32and I think you have that perfect balance. Are you aware of that?
0:26:32 > 0:26:34No.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38- But you are. Because I've seen you...- I'm not.- ..when I've been working with you.
0:26:38 > 0:26:42You will sometimes do a piece of business, let's say,
0:26:42 > 0:26:45one night, you'll pick up a glass, go to drink it and then
0:26:45 > 0:26:50decide not to drink it and it's a remarkable gesture.
0:26:50 > 0:26:51I shall do it tonight!
0:26:51 > 0:26:54I've said to you, "Oh, Judi, I love it when you do..."
0:26:54 > 0:26:57And you say, "yes, I did that on that word."
0:26:57 > 0:27:00And I've gone, "Really?" You seem to be completely spontaneous
0:27:00 > 0:27:04and yet you have a perfect memory and a perfect consciousness.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06Well, isn't it the same thing as actually being on a stage
0:27:06 > 0:27:09where, although you and I can be playing a scene together,
0:27:09 > 0:27:11this ear, here
0:27:11 > 0:27:15is not actually listening to you, this ear has turned round like a cat's
0:27:15 > 0:27:18and is listening to every single bit of that, so I know that person
0:27:18 > 0:27:21up there is coughing and I know that person down there is coughing.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24And this eye, here is not looking at you
0:27:24 > 0:27:26but it's actually also watching there so that you...
0:27:26 > 0:27:28You know, it is a kind of double, kind of...
0:27:28 > 0:27:31It's a kind of dichotomy, isn't it, really?
0:27:32 > 0:27:33I don't know.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36I don't know, it's perhaps good not to think too much about it.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Do you think it's learned...
0:27:39 > 0:27:41I mean, technique, you've learned how to act in films,
0:27:41 > 0:27:43haven't you?
0:27:43 > 0:27:45Erm, I've learned better how to act in films,
0:27:45 > 0:27:48but that will never...
0:27:48 > 0:27:49Although I love the process of that, now,
0:27:49 > 0:27:52which I used to really dislike intensely.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54Erm...
0:27:54 > 0:27:59Now, having done more films, I understand that.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02That is absolutely watching other people who are good at it.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04- I mean...- Did you want to be a...
0:28:04 > 0:28:06No, I never wanted to be in a film,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09Because I don't... I didn't understand it, then
0:28:09 > 0:28:12and I actually don't really understand it, now.
0:28:12 > 0:28:16I mean, I understand that we can do a scene, but it seems to me
0:28:16 > 0:28:21that there are so many thousands of ways to do a scene that, erm...
0:28:21 > 0:28:26it is an agony to me that one way is chosen.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29So, therefore, that one way is kind of in formaldehyde,
0:28:29 > 0:28:33there it is. That's why I don't like going and seeing films,
0:28:33 > 0:28:35because I would want to change them.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38That's why the theatre is so alive, because... Spontaneous...
0:28:38 > 0:28:40I mean, I...
0:28:40 > 0:28:43Tonight, I will do something that I didn't do last night.
0:28:43 > 0:28:45I may do it worse, but I may do it better.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47You're almost, erm...
0:28:47 > 0:28:52in this country, a surrogate royal family,
0:28:52 > 0:28:55- only rather better behaved than most of them.- Richard, do stop.
0:28:55 > 0:28:58But one of the reasons, people... You have the stated part,
0:28:58 > 0:29:01because people cast you...
0:29:01 > 0:29:04as queens. You know, Cleopatra...
0:29:05 > 0:29:08- Only three queens. - Well, three queens is enough.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10Well, three Queens in 44 years isn't much.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Well, it's probably three more than most people have played.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16But people identify you with a sort of grace,
0:29:16 > 0:29:19a dignity and a stoicism, endurance.
0:29:19 > 0:29:24In some way, they intuit from your performances
0:29:24 > 0:29:26qualities that you have as a person.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30I mean, it's not a coincidence that you are the person that the families
0:29:30 > 0:29:35of the people who died in the Twin Towers asked to read a lesson.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38Do you have any sense of what it is in yourself?
0:29:38 > 0:29:42No, I would like them to think I was a firebrand and, you know...
0:29:42 > 0:29:48- I don't like to be thought of as stoic, stois...- Stoic.- Stoic.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51And, erm, you know. I don't particularly like that.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54I would like to be... It's like, I dislike that as much as I dislike being
0:29:54 > 0:29:56pigeonholed as one thing.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00I've never wanted to be thought of as one kind of actress.
0:30:00 > 0:30:05If a part came up, you know, if having played erm...
0:30:05 > 0:30:07Who shall we say? Iris Murdoch.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11Another part comes up of similar kind of quality,
0:30:11 > 0:30:14then I can't do that, everything in me says no.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17Do something... Be a tightrope walker in the circus.
0:30:17 > 0:30:22I don't want to have just a particular kind of form of,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25of being thought of. I don't like that.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27But I suppose the paradox for me,
0:30:27 > 0:30:31who knows you very well, is that if you have a...
0:30:31 > 0:30:35If people think of you as this terribly graceful, demure,
0:30:35 > 0:30:39- genteel person, the reality is that you're very...- I'm certainly not.
0:30:39 > 0:30:44- I'm none of those.- ..raunchy. - Raunchy is a good word, yes, raunchy.
0:30:44 > 0:30:49- Yes, I mean...- I mean, you're... there's nothing prudish about you.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53- I hope not. - So, does anything human disgust you?
0:30:55 > 0:30:57What makes you... I've heard you say...
0:30:57 > 0:31:01Small-mindedness makes me very, very angry indeed.
0:31:01 > 0:31:03Erm...
0:31:03 > 0:31:06And rigidness makes me angry.
0:31:06 > 0:31:07Rigidity of not ever,
0:31:07 > 0:31:11ever being able to see beyond what you imagine the boundaries are,
0:31:11 > 0:31:13that's always irritated me.
0:31:13 > 0:31:17And I don't like that unawareness of people.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20People stand, actually,
0:31:20 > 0:31:25much too close to you, or invade that, kind of, area that we all have,
0:31:25 > 0:31:26so barge...
0:31:26 > 0:31:32you know, not necessarily physical barging in but, somehow, you know...
0:31:32 > 0:31:35don't give you... just a space of some kind.
0:31:37 > 0:31:42That's quite important, your own privacy is very important to you?
0:31:42 > 0:31:46Yes. I remember Katharine Whitehorn saying that anyone who is in the theatre
0:31:46 > 0:31:49has no right to a private life, she said it a long time ago
0:31:49 > 0:31:52and I thought, "I couldn't disagree with her more",
0:31:52 > 0:31:56because I think we show so much of us, you know, in all aspects,
0:31:56 > 0:32:01because... Previously having said of sieving everything through you,
0:32:01 > 0:32:04you actually expose a lot of yourself and you peel a lot of the onion...
0:32:04 > 0:32:07things off. I think you ought to be able to have that
0:32:07 > 0:32:11thing inside that is just you and that just you know about.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14But do you think it's part of the prurient curiosity
0:32:14 > 0:32:18of the public that they want to invade out of fascination?
0:32:18 > 0:32:21Yes, and they think they know you.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23People imagine, because they see you in so many things,
0:32:23 > 0:32:26they imagine that that's what you're like.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28They imagine that they know you as a person
0:32:28 > 0:32:30and that's not so.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36Apart from having a terrible temper, which I must say you use
0:32:36 > 0:32:40very selectively, what do you think your faults are?
0:32:40 > 0:32:42Erm...
0:32:42 > 0:32:44I think I jump to the conclusion about things
0:32:44 > 0:32:47and people too quickly, but I've always done that
0:32:47 > 0:32:49and I'm nearly always proved wrong.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51What do you think are your faults as an actress are?
0:32:51 > 0:32:53Erm...
0:32:54 > 0:32:58Perhaps I don't want to say, because I... That's why,
0:32:58 > 0:33:02some reasons that... I can't see my performance on stage
0:33:02 > 0:33:05and I don't go very often to see myself in films
0:33:05 > 0:33:08because I don't want to come face-to-face with that,
0:33:08 > 0:33:11because I once remember seeing the television of Macbeth
0:33:11 > 0:33:14and being so desperately disappointed
0:33:14 > 0:33:18because I thought that wasn't... surely wasn't what I was doing.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22I don't like to... See, that's a very cowardly side of me,
0:33:22 > 0:33:26that I don't want to see that, I don't...
0:33:26 > 0:33:30I don't want to see something that I...
0:33:30 > 0:33:32that I think was so different.
0:33:32 > 0:33:37I was appalled, I thought it wasn't, it can't have been like that.
0:33:37 > 0:33:40So I thought, "I won't look at something
0:33:40 > 0:33:43"until a long time has passed, then I will probably look at it again."
0:33:43 > 0:33:45Do you think you're vain?
0:33:45 > 0:33:48I'm vain in so far as sometimes I see a photograph of myself and think,
0:33:48 > 0:33:53"Oh, please, that's not me," because I'm this tall, willowy, blonde woman.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56I am vain, then, yes.
0:33:57 > 0:34:01But vain, I'm not vain in that I...
0:34:01 > 0:34:06I'm not vain to think, "Oh, well, I wouldn't do that because
0:34:06 > 0:34:07I'm A, prudish about it,
0:34:07 > 0:34:10or B, it won't show me up in a good light,
0:34:10 > 0:34:15or C, I won't look good doing it. I don't mind, that doesn't make me
0:34:15 > 0:34:19in the slightest... so if that's not being vain, then I'm not doing it.
0:34:21 > 0:34:27So it's the highest virtue, that... and a virtue I think you possess
0:34:27 > 0:34:31and the virtue you admire most in others, is that generosity?
0:34:31 > 0:34:34I do admire that. I do admire that enormously.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37And I think also, you know, I mean, yes, generosity of spirit
0:34:37 > 0:34:42and just generous, in order to be able to talk
0:34:42 > 0:34:45and maybe change your mind about something.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49Because unless you have that kind of amorphous...
0:34:49 > 0:34:54you're that kind of amorphous person, then it seems to me that
0:34:54 > 0:34:57you would come like that to a part and you would say,
0:34:57 > 0:34:59"This is the boundaries of my scenes,"
0:34:59 > 0:35:02so therefore, everything that is fed in about you, you know...
0:35:02 > 0:35:06That's why I don't want to read the play before hand, really, because
0:35:06 > 0:35:10you hear actors, you hear other characters say something, so that all comes...
0:35:10 > 0:35:13So it's an amorphous thing all the time in the theatre,
0:35:13 > 0:35:17it's always like that, every night is like this
0:35:17 > 0:35:20and every night changes because you suddenly hear something
0:35:20 > 0:35:24that you think, I haven't really thought about.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27I remember on the last of the hundreds of performances of
0:35:27 > 0:35:30Antony and Cleopatra suddenly thinking something,
0:35:30 > 0:35:31"Why didn't I think..."
0:35:31 > 0:35:34And then I thought, "Well, there's just time to do it tonight."
0:35:34 > 0:35:36Whereas in film, you know, you make the choice
0:35:36 > 0:35:39and you still are amorphous, but you make the choice,
0:35:39 > 0:35:42but then that choice is suddenly bottled.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45It's bottled and it never changes.
0:35:45 > 0:35:50And very, very, very good film actors don't mind about that.
0:35:50 > 0:35:55But I mind very much, so in that way I am vain, in that I mind
0:35:55 > 0:35:59very, very much indeed that it isn't as good as I could get it, I think.
0:36:00 > 0:36:05It's that never-ending quest for improvement, even amidst
0:36:05 > 0:36:09so much acclaim, that has made Dame Judi Dench's career
0:36:09 > 0:36:12such a success and such a delight to watch.
0:36:12 > 0:36:17She's achieved all there is to achieve, on stage, television
0:36:17 > 0:36:21and the big-screen and yet, with every new role,
0:36:21 > 0:36:24she just seems to get better and better.