0:00:13 > 0:00:15Dancer, actor, singer,
0:00:15 > 0:00:17director, producer.
0:00:18 > 0:00:23In the Hollywood of the 1940s, and '50s,
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Gene Kelly was the perfect package.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29He didn't just dance in some of cinema's greatest scenes,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32he was the man who choreographed the dances.
0:00:32 > 0:00:37He earned himself a reputation as an artist and an innovator,
0:00:37 > 0:00:39We join him now for an interview he gave
0:00:39 > 0:00:44at the BBC's famous Lime Grove studios on a visit to London,
0:00:44 > 0:00:47with his then wife, Betsy Blair,
0:00:47 > 0:00:51to promote the 1956 film Invitation To The Dance.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57I have taken over reception duties at Lime Grove -
0:00:57 > 0:00:59temporarily, I hasten to add -
0:00:59 > 0:01:02because in a few moments we are expecting a visitor
0:01:02 > 0:01:06who started life with the intention of becoming a lawyer.
0:01:06 > 0:01:07But, to coin his own phrase,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10he thought he might save an awful lot of people from prison,
0:01:10 > 0:01:12by becoming instead one of the best-known choreographers,
0:01:12 > 0:01:16dancers, actors, writers, directors in the film business.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21I'd like you to meet him straightaway, here he is, Gene Kelly.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23- Hello, Gene.- Hello, Peter. How are you?- Oh, I'm fine, thanks.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25- And you?- Just fine. It's good to be here,
0:01:25 > 0:01:28and to do a little bit of work over in England.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31I remember about three months ago I was talking to your wife
0:01:31 > 0:01:33in this very same building.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Yes, so I understood. That was about Marty.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39- Her picture.- Of course. How is she?- She's just fine.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43She's over here now with me, and my little girl.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47- We're afraid we have to leave soon, but we're glad to be here.- Good.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51- Gene, let's get straight to you, now. How did you start?- Well, start what?
0:01:51 > 0:01:54- Start coming to England, or...? - Start in the business
0:01:54 > 0:01:55Well, that's a long story.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59I'm afraid it was sheer economics - I had to make a living some way.
0:01:59 > 0:02:05I didn't want to do it by stealing, so.. Well, I became a dancer.
0:02:05 > 0:02:09I was working my way through school, and I found out
0:02:09 > 0:02:13I could do it best by doing little performances and dancing.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16And I soon fell into show business. It's as simple as that.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18Now, they tell me that you opened a dancing school
0:02:18 > 0:02:20when you were 18 years old. Is that right?
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Yes, I started to teach kids on the block
0:02:22 > 0:02:25and fellow students at school, and so forth.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29And I got so interested in it, I began to study very hard.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31And, fortunately, it turned out very well.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35After a while, though, I decided to brave New York City
0:02:35 > 0:02:37and become a choreographer.
0:02:37 > 0:02:43But strangely enough, nobody wanted me to be a choreographer,
0:02:43 > 0:02:45so I ended up being an actor.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47But afterwards, I became a choreographer.
0:02:47 > 0:02:52- Gene, what was your first picture? - Uh, Me And My Gal with Judy Garland.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55Gee, that seems a long time ago!
0:02:55 > 0:02:58You shouldn't ask me questions like that. I get feeling older here.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03Yes, that was the first one, and then it went on from there.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06- Do you remember that one?- Well, I don't think I do.- You're just a boy.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09I tell you one I do remember, one I liked very much - The Three Musketeers.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13- I liked that one myself!- You went all over the place, didn't you?
0:03:13 > 0:03:15That was hard work. But we enjoyed it.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Sort of cowboys and Indians with long wigs and beards and everything.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19Yes, I liked that.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23I'm glad you mentioned that - it's about the only one
0:03:23 > 0:03:26- that I didn't dance in. - INTERVIEWER LAUGHS
0:03:26 > 0:03:29Gene, where did you develop this particular style of dancing
0:03:29 > 0:03:30which is very much all your own.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32Well, it...
0:03:32 > 0:03:37I, believe it or not, was a classic ballet dancer first,
0:03:37 > 0:03:39and a lot of things I tried to say,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42I found I couldn't quite say.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45For instance, if I wanted to play a truck driver in movies, that is,
0:03:45 > 0:03:48you can say anything you want with classic ballet,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51but playing a part and having to dress like a truck driver
0:03:51 > 0:03:54instead of dressing in a classical costume,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57I decided to try and work out a style that would go along
0:03:57 > 0:04:01with American speech and American moves, American jazz music, and so forth.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05So, I did work hard at developing a style of my own.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Whether this is successful or not, we'll leave that to you to judge,
0:04:09 > 0:04:13but it was with malice aforethought that I did it all.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15Let's talk, if we may, a little while,
0:04:15 > 0:04:17about Invitation To The Dance.
0:04:17 > 0:04:19Oh, good. I'd like to talk about that.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21First of all, where did you get the idea?
0:04:21 > 0:04:24- Let's start like that. - Oh, I've had it a long time.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29It originally started because I'd been in so many films
0:04:29 > 0:04:34and we always had trouble getting some of the dancers we wanted
0:04:34 > 0:04:38because a dancer spends all his life learning to dance,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42then he gets in a film and they say, "Here's a scene, you act in it,"
0:04:42 > 0:04:45and, "Here's a song, you sing it," and so forth.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48And so a lot of good dancers - and I mean wonderful dancers -
0:04:48 > 0:04:51never have the opportunity to work in films because of this,
0:04:51 > 0:04:53because they can't act.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56So, I said, "Wouldn't it be wonderful one day if we made a film
0:04:56 > 0:04:58"that was about dancers and for dancers."
0:04:58 > 0:05:03So, I've had this bee in my bonnet for a long time.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06The trouble was selling it, you see, selling the idea,
0:05:06 > 0:05:11and spending all that money on a film with no dialogue, and...
0:05:11 > 0:05:13just dancers in it
0:05:13 > 0:05:16and, if I may say it, no Hollywood people.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19- You say no dialogue? - No dialogue. No, it's all dancing.
0:05:19 > 0:05:20Really, all dancing.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22Do you find that dancing in television
0:05:22 > 0:05:26and dancing in films has maybe drawn a lot of people to the ballet?
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Well, I know... I can't answer for England, of course,
0:05:29 > 0:05:33but I know in America that the interest in Sadler's Wells,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36for example, was so popular when I visited there,
0:05:36 > 0:05:39that people just jammed the theatre to see them.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43I know a big reason for that was ballet films,
0:05:43 > 0:05:48- particularly, I must say, the English film Red Shoes.- Oh, yes.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52So, it has had a great effect on popularising ballet in America.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54I'm sure it must have over here too.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57It probably has. Like so many other things, when you see something
0:05:57 > 0:06:00at home on your television screen, you want to see more of it.
0:06:00 > 0:06:01Well, I'm glad to hear that.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Oh, Mr Kelly, please! We're ready now.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05I think I must go and make a living.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07Gene, just before you do go, one more question.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Any regrets at all about not being a lawyer?
0:06:10 > 0:06:11Any regrets... Uh...
0:06:11 > 0:06:13No, I don't think so!
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Goodbye!
0:06:15 > 0:06:18So, there goes Gene Kelly, and the best of luck to him.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22- SYLVIA SYMS:- After dominating dance on the silver screen for over 20 years,
0:06:22 > 0:06:2920th Century Fox gave Kelly the chance to direct the 1969 musical Hello, Dolly,
0:06:29 > 0:06:32starring Barbra Streisand, Walter Matthau,
0:06:32 > 0:06:36and Michael Crawford, who talks about working with Kelly
0:06:36 > 0:06:39in this interview for the programme Line Up Film Night.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43They got me together with Gene Kelly in San Francisco
0:06:43 > 0:06:46and I spent half an hour just talking to him,
0:06:46 > 0:06:49and he said, "Can you sing?"
0:06:49 > 0:06:51And I said, "Well, yes, I can sort of sing."
0:06:51 > 0:06:53And, "What about your dancing?"
0:06:53 > 0:06:57And I said, "Well, I'd done a bit in the bath," you know.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59And he...he didn't laugh at that.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03And he said, "Well, can you do this?"
0:07:03 > 0:07:08He did a little...thing. And I got very scared at that point, and...
0:07:08 > 0:07:10I said, "Well, I really don't..."
0:07:10 > 0:07:14He said, "Come on, just do it! Just try putting those two legs there and there."
0:07:14 > 0:07:19And I had a go, and it was really very messy, but he said...
0:07:19 > 0:07:23"Well, I think it's worth doing a test.
0:07:23 > 0:07:29"What we need is a sort of, erm, person who is a...has some charm,
0:07:29 > 0:07:30"but is a sort of an idiot.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34"Well, my wife thinks you've got charm and I think
0:07:34 > 0:07:38"you're a bit of an idiot, so you stand a good chance of doing this."
0:07:38 > 0:07:43I think it's the best thing he could ever direct.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46I don't think anyone else could have directed it
0:07:46 > 0:07:48anywhere near as well as him, but, uh, um,
0:07:48 > 0:07:50maybe I can just say that quietly.
0:07:50 > 0:07:56Because he has done an incredible job with it.
0:07:56 > 0:08:02It has all the feeling that he had in his films.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04He generates enthusiasm...
0:08:06 > 0:08:09..and tremendous vitality.
0:08:09 > 0:08:10He is 26!
0:08:10 > 0:08:14He's...my age! I'm 27.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19But the boy with me in the film is a dancer, since he was that high.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22Now, we did... You can do things like cartwheels with no hands -
0:08:22 > 0:08:24they're called butterflies.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27The boy I was with could do four.
0:08:27 > 0:08:32Kelly could do six, and he's 56.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35And that is really something.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37He's still got so much energy, that man.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39He works seven days a week.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41And I used to have to work seven days a week out there
0:08:41 > 0:08:43because of dancing, everything I'm learning,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46so I got a special pass to work on Saturdays.
0:08:46 > 0:08:50He'd come, cos he knew that was going on. He'd want to be there.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54He'd come up to the house and say, "I've got a great idea for Monday,"
0:08:54 > 0:08:57and it's a change of half a line, or something.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01But his enthusiasm just doesn't stop him from wanting to work
0:09:01 > 0:09:03and work and work.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06- SYMS:- Hello, Dolly, won three Academy Awards
0:09:06 > 0:09:08and was nominated for another four.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11Despite that success,
0:09:11 > 0:09:14musicals were no longer as popular as they had been.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18But in 1974, the surprise hit That's Entertainment
0:09:18 > 0:09:22had Kelly topping the box office once again,
0:09:22 > 0:09:26meaning new interest in his career, and an encounter with Barry Norman.
0:09:26 > 0:09:32Dancing is not all that joyful when you're putting it on film.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34It's great joy in creating it,
0:09:34 > 0:09:37but it's a chore to get it in that box.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38It's a big chore.
0:09:38 > 0:09:44And, uh, it's a lot of sweat, blood and tears.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46You were quite late starting in films, weren't you?
0:09:46 > 0:09:49- You were already 30 when you made For Me And My Gal.- Yes.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52I was exactly 30. I left Broadway...
0:09:55 > 0:09:58Yes, I turned 30 in the middle of the film.
0:10:17 > 0:10:22Working with Judy in my first film, I was automatically in a hit
0:10:22 > 0:10:25cos she was such a big star.
0:10:25 > 0:10:30People liked her, and I sort of tagged along behind her,
0:10:30 > 0:10:31and I did very well.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36One of our critics described you as a greater film artist than Astaire.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38Now, I'm sure your modesty will forbid you to accept this,
0:10:38 > 0:10:40but modesty apart...
0:10:40 > 0:10:41Well, I...
0:10:41 > 0:10:44No, it has nothing to do with modesty. I, um...
0:10:44 > 0:10:47Fred, whom I dearly love,
0:10:47 > 0:10:52and admire, was the epitome of American dance for ten years.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56And that was quite important. I think he kept the dance alive.
0:10:56 > 0:11:03It's true that he danced with Ginger Rogers and they were a team -
0:11:03 > 0:11:06it was in the old... it was the older tradition.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10But he was the American dance to people all around the world.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13What would you say was your own major contribution to the musical?
0:11:13 > 0:11:16It would seem to me that you were the man
0:11:16 > 0:11:20who brought muscle and sweat and athleticism into dance.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Well, that...that...that might be true, but I feel
0:11:23 > 0:11:27that my biggest contribution was changing the costume.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32Whereas the male dancer in movies was always
0:11:32 > 0:11:35representative of the upper classes,
0:11:35 > 0:11:41I certainly couldn't be because of... not only the way I danced,
0:11:41 > 0:11:43the way I wear clothes.
0:11:43 > 0:11:49If I put on a...evening dress - a white tie and tails -
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I look like a truck driver. The Iceman Cometh.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54NORMAN LAUGHS
0:11:54 > 0:11:56I think the outfit,
0:11:56 > 0:12:02changing into sweatshirt and blue jeans and moccasins,
0:12:02 > 0:12:05visually changing the look of the male dancer,
0:12:05 > 0:12:07might have been, uh...
0:12:07 > 0:12:10my greatest contribution. I don't know.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13I remember, I suppose On The Town was the one I remember most vividly,
0:12:13 > 0:12:17that all of a sudden, and it seemed to me for the first time in a musical,
0:12:17 > 0:12:21the song and the dance came spontaneously out of the action.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23That was a contribution you made, surely.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26Yes, we did it on location. We did On The Town on location
0:12:26 > 0:12:33and we did it as real people coming down real streets in New York City.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36And the sailor suits show your body
0:12:36 > 0:12:40just the same as a ballet dancer wearing tights.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42You can see how he dances.
0:12:42 > 0:12:43# New York, New York
0:12:43 > 0:12:44# New York, New York
0:12:44 > 0:12:46# New York, New York
0:12:46 > 0:12:49# It's a wonderful town... #
0:12:49 > 0:12:50MAN LAUGHS
0:12:50 > 0:12:52Hey, fellas. What's the big rush!
0:12:52 > 0:12:55- We only got 24 hours!- Yeah! - And we never been here before!
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Ah, what can happen to you in one day. What do you think you'll do?
0:12:58 > 0:12:59THEY HOWL AND BARK
0:12:59 > 0:13:02# New York, New York A wonderful town
0:13:02 > 0:13:04# The Bronx is up and the Battery's down
0:13:04 > 0:13:06# The people ride in a hole in the ground
0:13:06 > 0:13:07# New York, New York
0:13:07 > 0:13:11# It's a wonderful town. #
0:13:25 > 0:13:28But didn't the studio think with On the Town
0:13:28 > 0:13:30that they had a disaster on their hands?
0:13:30 > 0:13:32They thought going to New York
0:13:32 > 0:13:35was the most ridiculous thing in the world, yes.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39- They wanted to do it all in the back lot?- Oh, sure. "Why not?" they said.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43- Cheaper.- Yes. And quicker, yes.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47- But it was your idea to take it to New York?- Yes.- Why?
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Because I knew it would work. I somehow knew it would work.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Maybe if I'd been older and wiser,
0:13:52 > 0:13:56I would've said, "I shouldn't take that kind of a risk."
0:13:56 > 0:13:59But I felt it was time to do it.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03And I had planned out ways to hide the camera
0:14:03 > 0:14:07so that we didn't need a police force around us
0:14:07 > 0:14:11to hold people back, and we could shoot very quickly. And we did.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19# We've sailed the seas and we've been the world over
0:14:19 > 0:14:21# Been to Mandalay
0:14:21 > 0:14:23# We've seen the Sphinx and seen the cliffs of Dover
0:14:23 > 0:14:25# But we can safely say
0:14:25 > 0:14:27# The most fabulous sight is New York in the light of the day
0:14:27 > 0:14:29# Our only day
0:14:29 > 0:14:31# New York, New York A wonderful town
0:14:31 > 0:14:33# The Bronx is up and the Battery's down
0:14:33 > 0:14:35# The people riding a hole in the ground
0:14:35 > 0:14:40# New York, New York It's a wonderful town! #
0:14:40 > 0:14:44Well, let's talk about the musical which I suppose has got to be
0:14:44 > 0:14:47among almost everybody's top two or three musicals
0:14:47 > 0:14:50and that's Singin' In The Rain. How much of that was scripted?
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Because I can't imagine a script that says,
0:14:52 > 0:14:56"At this point, Gene goes dancing up and down through puddles."
0:14:56 > 0:14:58No. No script.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02Usually the scripts that were written about musicals
0:15:02 > 0:15:07would say, "Here Kelly or Astaire or O'Connor does a dance
0:15:07 > 0:15:09"and it stops the show."
0:15:09 > 0:15:11Usually they'd say something like that.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14It's up to the choreographer to supply a great deal.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19# Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
0:15:19 > 0:15:22# Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
0:15:22 > 0:15:27# Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
0:15:34 > 0:15:38# I'm singin' in the rain
0:15:38 > 0:15:41# Just singin' in the rain
0:15:41 > 0:15:44# What a glorious feelin'
0:15:44 > 0:15:48# I'm happy again
0:15:48 > 0:15:51# I'm laughing at clouds
0:15:51 > 0:15:55# So dark up above
0:15:55 > 0:15:57# The sun's in my heart
0:15:57 > 0:16:00# And I'm ready for love... #
0:16:00 > 0:16:04The Singin' In The Rain number per se
0:16:04 > 0:16:07was done because it's a charming song.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11The producer who happened to write it, Arthur Freed, said,
0:16:11 > 0:16:14"What are you going to do with this now? We've done it a couple of times before."
0:16:14 > 0:16:18I said, "It's going to be raining and I'm going to be singing."
0:16:18 > 0:16:22And it was one of the easiest numbers I've ever had to put together.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26That's fantastic, because it's the one everybody remembers.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29It's... It's a joyous number.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32I think people like to see joy on the screen.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04I think I had a long career as a dancer. I think I've been very lucky.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07The...
0:17:07 > 0:17:12Things combine to do things to a dancer, or any kind of athlete.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15When you...
0:17:15 > 0:17:20When you go into this type of vocation, you have to be...
0:17:20 > 0:17:24Or you should be intelligent enough to know that you're not going to
0:17:24 > 0:17:27last as long as a painter or a musician or a writer.
0:17:27 > 0:17:32Because the tools with which you work - the tool, I should say -
0:17:32 > 0:17:33is your anatomy.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37And you're at your peak when you're about 25, physically.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41Except you don't know anything. You're fairly stupid.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45When you begin to mature, which I will do when I'm about 80...
0:17:45 > 0:17:51When you begin to mature, you begin to deteriorate physically.
0:17:51 > 0:17:57So, a dancer is disproportionately fighting against himself.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01Um... One has to learn to pace oneself.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05And you can do a better number, and that,
0:18:05 > 0:18:10but you still can't jump over the same table you could ten years ago.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13So, you say, "Oh, I'll have to cut that out."
0:18:13 > 0:18:15And you have to substitute something else.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I love everything about show business.
0:18:18 > 0:18:23I can't imagine myself in any other trade. I don't know any other trade.
0:18:23 > 0:18:30But even if I had to hang around and just work lights or something,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33I think I'd enjoy it. I do love show business.
0:18:33 > 0:18:39Two years after That's Entertainment came the inevitable sequel
0:18:39 > 0:18:42and a date with Michael Parkinson that showed just why Kelly
0:18:42 > 0:18:46never lost his status as a true Hollywood legend.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49APPLAUSE
0:18:49 > 0:18:52You were telling me also too... People tend to think now
0:18:52 > 0:18:55of song and dance men and musicals as being a thing of the past,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58which indeed they are in terms of film.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01But you mentioned to me earlier that, in fact, tap dancing
0:19:01 > 0:19:03is coming back as a vogue now?
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Yes, that's true.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09And I was talking to Mr Astaire two weeks ago
0:19:09 > 0:19:13when we were doing a little thing introducing some clips and so forth,
0:19:13 > 0:19:15in That's Entertainment II,
0:19:15 > 0:19:19and he said, "Look at this silly letter I got.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22"I have to fill it in." I said, "Look, I got the same letter."
0:19:22 > 0:19:23It was from a university.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28I won't mention the university, quite a good university in America.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30And we get a lot of these things...
0:19:30 > 0:19:33They're looking at tap dancing now
0:19:33 > 0:19:37as some kind of a basic American art form.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39And I guess it is that.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42- We never looked at it that way.- Yeah.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45We just got up there, took our check and went home!
0:19:45 > 0:19:47LAUGHTER
0:19:47 > 0:19:50And they're asking you, are they, to sort of teach them how to do it?
0:19:50 > 0:19:53- I thought that was water!? - It is water.
0:19:53 > 0:19:54LAUGHTER
0:19:54 > 0:19:59Yes. Yes, they said... Have a sip of that.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05- You got lucky. - LAUGHTER
0:20:05 > 0:20:08- Well, I worked this morning. - That's right.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12But let's go back and talk about Fred Astaire because, as I mentioned
0:20:12 > 0:20:15in my introduction, you're the two great giants of the film musical.
0:20:15 > 0:20:19What, in fact, was the basic difference between the two of you?
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Well, there's a great difference between the two of us.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26One of the reasons, I guess, for our friendship
0:20:26 > 0:20:29is that we often get together and talk about it
0:20:29 > 0:20:33over dinner or a drink or something. And...
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Fred started dancing in vaudeville at a very early age
0:20:36 > 0:20:38with his sister, Adele.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41As a matter of fact, he was very popular here in England.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46And they danced in musical comedies long before talking pictures.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49And Adele ran off and married
0:20:49 > 0:20:53an English lord or a count or someone like that.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57- I think it was the Earl of Cavendish, wasn't it?- That's right. It was.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59And here Fred was all alone,
0:20:59 > 0:21:02so they sent him out to Hollywood to go into talking pictures.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06And his first partner was Joan Crawford.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11And... Then he latched onto Ginger Rogers.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15And they had a successful career of I don't know how many years.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18But they were really the stars of the American film
0:21:18 > 0:21:21and they represented American dance.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26But Fred's success, I believe, was his elegance,
0:21:26 > 0:21:31his particular style which was unique - nobody can really dance like him.
0:21:31 > 0:21:36And when I wanted to dance,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40I started on the Broadway Theatre a couple of decades later.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44And I wanted to dance like Marlon Brando wanted to act.
0:21:44 > 0:21:48Roll up my sleeves and say, "Hey..." LAUGHTER
0:21:48 > 0:21:51If there is a difference,
0:21:51 > 0:21:54I would categorise it as saying...
0:21:54 > 0:21:57Let's see how I can put it succinctly,
0:21:57 > 0:22:04that Fred is sort of... He represents the aristocracy when he dances.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06And I represent the proletariat.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:22:09 > 0:22:11Up the rebels!
0:22:13 > 0:22:16I was going to ask you about the first act that you ever did
0:22:16 > 0:22:19when you went on stage with your brother.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22Well, my brother taught me to tap dance.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27Because we were going to speakeasies, which existed until 1932.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29And we'd go to amateur nights
0:22:29 > 0:22:31where they'd hold the handkerchief over your head
0:22:31 > 0:22:35and whoever got the most applause got the five dollars.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38The next was three, and the next two.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41Of course, if you were in an Italian neighbourhood
0:22:41 > 0:22:44you knew the accordion player would get the five dollars.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46No matter what he played!
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Miss the notes, he'd hit the wrong key - he'd get the five dollars.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55So, if we'd see the accordion player, nothing happened...
0:22:55 > 0:22:58But we'd... That's where we got our training.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01My brother taught me to tap dance very quickly
0:23:01 > 0:23:03and we formed this poor little act.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07And then we tried to improve on it and we put on roller skates.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11And we were gymnasts. We were on a gymnastic team in high school.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13And we did a tap dance on roller skates,
0:23:13 > 0:23:17and we were foolish enough to put acrobatics into it,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20which I would never do today, you see.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23But, in fact, that background, you put some of it into a film, didn't you?
0:23:23 > 0:23:26- I did that in a film, yes. - In It's Always Fair Weather.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29- We've got that clip with us now. - Oh, you have? I'd love to see that.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31It's one of my favourite sequences.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34It just shows how good That's Entertainment Part I was
0:23:34 > 0:23:35because, in fact, it wasn't in that.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39It's one of my favourite sequences of all-time. Let's have a look.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50APPLAUSE
0:24:55 > 0:24:57You've...
0:24:57 > 0:25:01- You've got to be a little nutty to do that.- I think so!
0:25:01 > 0:25:03Everybody always says to me,
0:25:03 > 0:25:06"Of course, the wheels were locked on those skates."
0:25:06 > 0:25:10I'm going, "Bzzzz..."
0:25:10 > 0:25:13I say... I don't know how they look at the film and say that.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16- It's beautiful, that. Super. - Thank you.
0:25:16 > 0:25:20- Did you ever fall down when you were rehearsing that?- No.
0:25:20 > 0:25:24No, those steps were easier than the ones I did with my brother,
0:25:24 > 0:25:27- so there was no problem.- Easier?
0:25:27 > 0:25:31Yes, because we used to do backflips and things.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34As I grew older and more mature, you see, I kept that out.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38You danced with a mouse and all kinds of... Some kids you performed with.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42But once you also danced with Francis Albert Sinatra, didn't you?
0:25:42 > 0:25:45Yes.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48- Would you say he was...?- He danced with Eugene Curran Kelly, yes!
0:25:48 > 0:25:50LAUGHTER
0:25:52 > 0:25:55What was...? Were there any special problems involved
0:25:55 > 0:25:59- in teaching Mr Sinatra how to dance? - Yes...
0:25:59 > 0:26:02LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:26:04 > 0:26:06First, he was...
0:26:06 > 0:26:09He didn't know how to dance - that was the first problem.
0:26:09 > 0:26:13But he was very good at rhythm.
0:26:13 > 0:26:17And he had had two pictures that didn't go down well
0:26:17 > 0:26:20that he had done at another studio.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24So, he came to me and asked me if I'd work with him on it.
0:26:24 > 0:26:30I told him he'd have to really work like a boxer, prizefighter, every day.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34And, after about a week, he became a bit recalcitrant
0:26:34 > 0:26:37because I'd make him do the same thing over and over again.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39But he got quite good.
0:26:39 > 0:26:43And then, of course, I would do things that were within his range.
0:26:43 > 0:26:48I wouldn't give him exactly what I'd give Igor Youskevitch, you know.
0:26:48 > 0:26:54But he became quite adept and a very good partner.
0:26:54 > 0:26:59And, of course, he was very good for me, and I'm very grateful to him
0:26:59 > 0:27:02because when I'd work with someone like Francis Albert,
0:27:02 > 0:27:07or Judith Garland... LAUGHTER
0:27:07 > 0:27:12..or Judy, see, they would sing the ballads in the show,
0:27:12 > 0:27:16and I wouldn't have to sing the ballad, I would sing the... # I got rhythm... #
0:27:16 > 0:27:19I could sing the song and dance man stuff.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22- So, it was very good for me to work with them.- Yes.
0:27:22 > 0:27:27But occasionally I would get stuck with a ballad,
0:27:27 > 0:27:30when the other person wasn't a good ballad singer.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34That's when I appreciated Francis Albert the most!
0:27:34 > 0:27:36In fact, you're selling yourself short,
0:27:36 > 0:27:38because I remember the film Cover Girl.
0:27:38 > 0:27:43- You sang a beautiful Kern number, Long Ago And Far Away... - Yeah, I had to sing the ballad!
0:27:43 > 0:27:45..which is a beautiful song.
0:27:45 > 0:27:51Well, Mr Kern was known for his, erm, sternness on Broadway,
0:27:51 > 0:27:55and I had just come from the theatre a short time ago,
0:27:55 > 0:28:00and Kern and I, or Gershwin, had written this song, and...
0:28:02 > 0:28:04..I was ready to record it.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07And in those days they put you in a glass booth,
0:28:07 > 0:28:08and the orchestra was over there,
0:28:08 > 0:28:12and I didn't know how to do that, to begin with.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14But I had learned the song,
0:28:14 > 0:28:17and just before we were going to take it, in walked Mr Kern.
0:28:17 > 0:28:22He sat down on a chair like this. Well, I was scared to death!
0:28:22 > 0:28:28I was shaking. I thought he'd, y'know, say, "Throw that bum out!"
0:28:28 > 0:28:31So I come out and I said, "Well, Mr Kern, I can do better than that.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34"Next take, you'll see, Mr Kern, I'll do much better."
0:28:34 > 0:28:36He said, "What? That's fine!"
0:28:36 > 0:28:38And years later, I thought to myself,
0:28:38 > 0:28:41"Well, he expected much worse!"
0:28:41 > 0:28:43LAUGHTER
0:28:43 > 0:28:46Frank Sinatra says, actually, about working with you
0:28:46 > 0:28:50in this excellent book that Clive Hirschhorn's written about you,
0:28:50 > 0:28:52he said that you paid him the ultimate compliment
0:28:52 > 0:28:54after eight weeks of working with him.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58"Francis, you've worked your way up from being lousy to adequate."
0:28:58 > 0:28:59LAUGHTER
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Well, if he said that to Clive, who's in the audience, I know,
0:29:05 > 0:29:08because I passed him coming in, it must be true.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10You're very much a perfectionist.
0:29:10 > 0:29:12I mean, it shows in your work that we see on screen.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15Would you say that you're a difficult man to work with?
0:29:15 > 0:29:17Any dancer has to be a perfectionist,
0:29:17 > 0:29:21because if a dancer gets up and dances across the stage
0:29:21 > 0:29:23and stumbles or falls, he's a bum.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27If a singer hits a high note, he laughs and he goes right on,
0:29:27 > 0:29:30or he says, "Whoops! It's not on the cue card!"
0:29:30 > 0:29:33- You can't dance off a cue card.- Yeah.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35You have to dance, you have to know the dance.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38And the music keeps on going, you can't make it up.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41If you make a slip, you can't say, "Whoops, let's start again."
0:29:41 > 0:29:44So, if a dancer falls or stumbles
0:29:44 > 0:29:48or makes a bad move or a ghost gesture of any kind,
0:29:48 > 0:29:49he's out of luck.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51So, you have to be highly disciplined.
0:29:51 > 0:29:57I think the dancer is as highly disciplined as the...
0:29:58 > 0:30:00..symphony orchestra player,
0:30:00 > 0:30:04who has to take the conductor's beat right away.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06- Mm.- Except he's sitting down all the time.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08A dancer has to work with his body.
0:30:08 > 0:30:13Was there anything left unfulfilled after your career in Hollywood,
0:30:13 > 0:30:16anything that you wanted to do with the film dance
0:30:16 > 0:30:17that you didn't manage to do?
0:30:18 > 0:30:24No. When the bottom dropped out of the musical comedy "market" again,
0:30:24 > 0:30:26to use the Hollywood term...
0:30:26 > 0:30:31Because when Elvis Presley and the Beatles and other groups
0:30:31 > 0:30:34took over the record business,
0:30:34 > 0:30:37records became more profitable...
0:30:40 > 0:30:43..than making movies or doing plays.
0:30:43 > 0:30:48If you do a movie now or a play now and you have a hit album,
0:30:48 > 0:30:53- you'll make more money off the album than you make from the show.- Yes.
0:30:53 > 0:30:58And there's no use complaining about it. It's one of the facts of life.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01And the statistics, I think, are
0:31:01 > 0:31:0485% of the records sold in America now,
0:31:04 > 0:31:09and I believe it's around the world, are sold to...
0:31:10 > 0:31:14..9-, 10-, 11-, 12-, 13-, 14-year-old groups.
0:31:14 > 0:31:19And they buy the rock and the country and western records.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22And they account for 85% of the records sold,
0:31:22 > 0:31:26so naturally they want to push them.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28It's true they don't last very long.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31One group comes up and dies, one group comes up and dies,
0:31:31 > 0:31:34but they sell a great amount of records.
0:31:34 > 0:31:38And we as adults,
0:31:38 > 0:31:41our musical listening habits
0:31:41 > 0:31:46are formed by 12-year-olds, whether we like it or not.
0:31:46 > 0:31:47Mine aren't.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50Well, then you must go home and lock yourself in,
0:31:50 > 0:31:56cos if you get in the car and turn on your radio, you'll hear rock music.
0:31:56 > 0:32:01And some of it's very good. I'm afraid that most of it's...
0:32:02 > 0:32:05..the bands are electronically produced
0:32:05 > 0:32:07and they use about three chords,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11and most of it's not very good. But some is very good, yes...
0:32:11 > 0:32:13as some of anything is good.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16But what's interesting is that if you,
0:32:16 > 0:32:20who've written your own chapter in the history of movies,
0:32:20 > 0:32:23if you were starting out now, as the young Gene Kelly,
0:32:23 > 0:32:25what on earth would you do?
0:32:25 > 0:32:28- I'd try to do the same thing. - But could you, you see?
0:32:28 > 0:32:32Well, I never meant to be a movie actor.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35I went to Broadway to be a choreographer.
0:32:35 > 0:32:37But if I went to be a choreographer,
0:32:37 > 0:32:40I'd do the dance that was in style, I guess,
0:32:40 > 0:32:44- or try to create my own dance and make a style out of it.- Mm.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47- I think I'd do the same thing, but who knows?- Yes.
0:32:47 > 0:32:48Do you have, when you look back...
0:32:48 > 0:32:52Are there any parts that you missed in your movie career,
0:32:52 > 0:32:54any musicals that you wanted to do,
0:32:54 > 0:32:56were scheduled for and didn't do them?
0:32:56 > 0:32:59Uh, nothing that I was scheduled for.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02- Yes, I was scheduled for one called Guys And Dolls.- Really?
0:33:02 > 0:33:06Sam Goldwyn wanted to borrow me from MGM,
0:33:06 > 0:33:10but Nicholas Schenck, the head of MGM, had a feud on with him
0:33:10 > 0:33:12and wouldn't lend me out to him.
0:33:12 > 0:33:17You see, they loaned out players like baseball or football players.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19We were all in a contract.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21So, that was the only one I really wanted to do.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23- That was the Brando part, presumably, was it?- Yes.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25And Sam was very honest.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28He said he'd wait three months and if he didn't get me
0:33:28 > 0:33:32then he would get the best actor and make it more of an acting part.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34Yes.
0:33:34 > 0:33:39Damn. But one film you did make which I suppose is...
0:33:39 > 0:33:41I don't know, it's your trademark now, isn't it?
0:33:41 > 0:33:46- ..was Singin' In The Rain, which is...- I guess so, yes.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49I mean, I play it over and over again. I've got it on tape.
0:33:49 > 0:33:53And I think it's flawless as a musical comedy.
0:33:53 > 0:33:58- I think it's absolutely beautiful. - I think it's a film that might last.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00LAUGHTER
0:34:00 > 0:34:04- No, I'm serious!- It'll last for ever. - Very few films last.
0:34:04 > 0:34:07They date. They date themselves.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10But what's good about Singin' In The Rain is that it's all true.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13- All of that happened.- Really?- Yes!
0:34:13 > 0:34:19When the studios turned over into sound, all of that happened.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22- All of those incidents are true. - Those lovely Jean Hagen things.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24They're all true. They're all true.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26It was beautiful.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32# I'm dancin'...
0:34:32 > 0:34:34# ..and singin'...
0:34:34 > 0:34:39# ..in the rain. #
0:34:48 > 0:34:50APPLAUSE
0:34:59 > 0:35:01And that's Hollywood!
0:35:12 > 0:35:14Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd