0:00:02 > 0:00:04Victorian working-class Britain.
0:00:08 > 0:00:13A labyrinth of destitution, street crime,
0:00:13 > 0:00:15gang warfare,
0:00:15 > 0:00:19drink addiction and welfare dependency.
0:00:21 > 0:00:26Into this dark continent came an army of upper-class
0:00:26 > 0:00:29do-gooders to study and help the problem families they found.
0:00:31 > 0:00:36And on their expeditions into the slums, these missionaries
0:00:36 > 0:00:40came face to face with Britain's outcast and unrecorded.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48We knew very little about the history of our family.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51She's sort of lower class, not worth anything.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55The working class, yeah. "Get under there. They're only crap."
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Now, using the explorers' written accounts of their meetings
0:00:59 > 0:01:03with the underclass, we've traced their descendants
0:01:03 > 0:01:07from Victorian times all the way down to the present day
0:01:07 > 0:01:12to find out what happened to the families that history forgot.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15To think about where our family's come in 200 years,
0:01:15 > 0:01:18from just one girl, I think she'd be amazed.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21We don't talk about it.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26A story told by the descendants themselves.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32We are all prisoners of our family histories.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35Don't forget where you've come from. Don't forget.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40Tonight, the story of two young gang leaders on opposite
0:01:40 > 0:01:44sides of a postcode war that was terrorising the people of Salford.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Ooh, bedlam! Imagine it! Something out of a cowboy movie.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56And the judge who wanted to clean up the streets
0:01:56 > 0:02:00by giving the hooligans a dose of their own medicine.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18'This is Ordsall. Two miles from Salford's town hall,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21'ships lie at anchor on the greasy water.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24'Even in the early hours of the morning, its nearby industrial
0:02:24 > 0:02:28'chimneys go on belching, adding to an atmosphere already polluted.
0:02:28 > 0:02:33'Coal fires adding their contribution to the carbonised air,
0:02:33 > 0:02:38'while beneath a panorama of rooftops, the day begins.'
0:02:38 > 0:02:41In Victorian times, Salford, near Manchester,
0:02:41 > 0:02:44became one of the world's first industrial cities.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47People flocked from all over, to graft in the mills
0:02:47 > 0:02:50and the factories.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54The conditions they lived and worked in were terrible.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03I don't think they had cinemas and whatever.
0:03:03 > 0:03:08You know, so social life, apart from the pub, was basically
0:03:08 > 0:03:11fight each other to see who was the top dog in that area.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16Gangs of youths, you know.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21They had a distinctive dress style.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26Basically bell-bottom trousers, clogs, jacket and a scarf.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29And they had short back and sides.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32They called these fights scuttles.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36They wanted to fight and if anybody tried interfering,
0:03:36 > 0:03:40like the police, they got a kicking or a good hiding.
0:03:40 > 0:03:45Any bystander was automatically dragged in.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52My name's Gary Farrar and in 1890
0:03:52 > 0:03:55my ancestor, Peter Moffatt, was involved in a gang war
0:03:55 > 0:03:57which shocked the people of Salford.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04That's my dad, Alan.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08His grandmother was Peter Moffatt's sister.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11And she was a big member of his gang.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16I'm Alan Farrar, Gary's dad.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Peter Moffatt, the scuttler, was my great-uncle.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24I can understand why these lads were ready for a fight.
0:04:26 > 0:04:31You was the lowest of the low, as far as higher ups was concerned.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35You'd be lucky if you seen 40, weren't you?
0:04:35 > 0:04:37They know they're getting exploited.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41So you lose your rag and you just show it with violence, don't you?
0:04:42 > 0:04:46It must have been just boredom or who wanted to be the top dog.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50Cos they were making nothing out of it.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54By 1890, the fighting reached its head,
0:04:54 > 0:04:57as two rival gangs battled for control.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03One notorious hard man was determined to be top dog,
0:05:03 > 0:05:05my relative, Peter.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08Peter Moffatt, a 20-year-old gang leader,
0:05:08 > 0:05:10and he was a feared gang leader,
0:05:10 > 0:05:14had got nine months' prison in Strangeways for stabbing
0:05:14 > 0:05:18John Allmark, who was a leader of a rival gang.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25Peter was under the impression his enemy grassed him.
0:05:32 > 0:05:37I'm Ray Allmark. My grandad was a cousin of John Allmark,
0:05:37 > 0:05:41Peter Moffatt's arch rival. His gang looked up to him.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45He might've been the toughie in their gang, you know what I mean?
0:05:45 > 0:05:50And then he's met his match in Moffatt.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54You know, "I'm mean, I'll stand up to you," type of thing.
0:05:54 > 0:06:00It didn't just go on for two or three months, it went on for years.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Moffatt blamed my great-great-uncle John for getting him
0:06:03 > 0:06:07banged up for nine months in Strangeways.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11During this nine months, it must have been festering in Peter.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13He was hellbent on revenge.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16Because on the day of his release
0:06:16 > 0:06:18he went out looking for the Hope Street gang.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29Bank Holiday Monday, Easter.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34When they should have all been out celebrating,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37having a few pints, he went scuttling.
0:06:46 > 0:06:53I was told some men were looking for me, so I went up Ordsall Lane,
0:06:53 > 0:06:57on to the Prince of Wales beer house in Hope Street.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07A brick went through the window.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10That was the calling note - we're here.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12"Come out you bleeders. Cop for this."
0:07:12 > 0:07:16The landlord went to the door and was struck with a stick.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19- Then he sent all the lads out. - Get your weapons.
0:07:19 > 0:07:20They'd seen who it was
0:07:20 > 0:07:24and started tearing the furniture apart to use as weapons.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30They'd have gone out, faced them up and run at one another.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34Obviously, using the weapons in their hand first.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38Try and thin them out a bit with them. Buckle belts.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40You only want one of them round your jaw or summat,
0:07:40 > 0:07:44you wouldn't be getting up from that for a while.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46According to an eyewitness, there was,
0:07:46 > 0:07:48like, an 80-strong battle of young men.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58- What must it have looked like, that fight?- Ooh, bedlam!
0:07:58 > 0:08:00Imagine it!
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Summat out of a cowboy movie.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12I heard a row and shouting, but I did not go out.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14I refused.
0:08:17 > 0:08:18As the leader of them,
0:08:18 > 0:08:22you'd expect him to, you know, lead from the front,
0:08:22 > 0:08:26but I think John's a smarter fella that thinks a bit more than Moffatt.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30Somewhere along the line, fighting like that, you're going
0:08:30 > 0:08:32to say, "I've had enough of it now."
0:08:32 > 0:08:34Other things on his mind.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37Making money. Maybe he'd got a girlfriend.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43While Allmark stayed inside the pub, outside,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46his gang were getting the better of Peter's.
0:08:46 > 0:08:51He was running away, Peter was. Cos they were getting beat.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53He got caught, didn't he?
0:08:53 > 0:08:56I felt the knives go in my back.
0:08:56 > 0:09:00About...four cuts.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Wherever you get stabbed, five times is a bit tricky, isn't it?
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Probably thinking - "I'm a goner here.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09"I've had it. This is it. Goodbye, Mr Chips."
0:09:12 > 0:09:15I got back home with some great difficulty.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19I felt the blood running down my leg. I could hardly walk.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26He must have gone through agony.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30And that was his first day out.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32Eh?
0:09:34 > 0:09:37They'd be arrested, wouldn't they? Charged.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39To appear in front of the magistrate.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42He'd say, "You lot again?" That type of thing.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45That's the way they'd look at it. Sick of you.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47It might have even gone to crown court,
0:09:47 > 0:09:49or the quarter sessions as they had then.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53Cos it's not like just pinching a bottle of milk, was it?
0:09:53 > 0:09:55It was causing carnage in the streets.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01I'm John Crowther Makinson.
0:10:01 > 0:10:06The Salford magistrate, Joseph Makinson, was my great-grandfather.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09I do have a sense that he felt that the work
0:10:09 > 0:10:13he did was, without being pompous about it, important
0:10:13 > 0:10:18and particularly important at that time in that place.
0:10:19 > 0:10:24He had been grappling with the scuttling problem for years.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27This latest scuttle shocked him because Peter Moffatt had
0:10:27 > 0:10:31attacked John Allmark on the very day he had been released from jail.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37Prison no longer seemed to be working as a deterrent.
0:10:38 > 0:10:43By 1890, there were more youths in Strangeways Prison
0:10:43 > 0:10:46for scuttling than for any other offence.
0:10:46 > 0:10:51So my great-grandfather came up with the controversial policy to
0:10:51 > 0:10:53put a stop to it.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57He wanted to introduce flogging, basically,
0:10:57 > 0:11:01as a sharp-shock treatment and basically browbeat them.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07I'd like to ask the magistrate how he'd feel
0:11:07 > 0:11:10if he had to live in their conditions?
0:11:10 > 0:11:12That's what I'd like to ask.
0:11:12 > 0:11:18I've never seen a picture, but I can imagine a pot-bellied, pompous prat,
0:11:18 > 0:11:20if I'm allowed to swear.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Looking down on them lads.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26That's the way they've treated the working class.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29"Yeah, get under there. They're only crap."
0:11:31 > 0:11:35I do think that that probably wasn't a reflection of a sadistic or
0:11:35 > 0:11:39even particularly a liberal streak in my great-grandfather
0:11:39 > 0:11:44but probably the result of an intense feeling of frustration about
0:11:44 > 0:11:48how to deal with a problem which didn't have an obvious solution.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56Even in Victorian Britain, flogging was seen as brutal.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59The Home Secretary thought it was too controversial
0:11:59 > 0:12:01and turned Makinson's proposal down.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07John Allmark ended up with four months' imprisonment and
0:12:07 > 0:12:12Peter Moffatt, he ended up with 12 months' imprisonment, hard labour.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Peter vanished from the records for ten years.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21Then he reappeared in the early 1900s.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26He was in his 30s and things were just as bad.
0:12:26 > 0:12:32He becomes a petty thief, stealing leggings, coats.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37In total, he was convicted nine times.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44It's no wonder Peter ended up in trouble with the law.
0:12:44 > 0:12:48Through all his years, he never had what you'd call a stable home life.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54Peter and his sister, Margaret, had brought themselves up alone.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Their parents were working all hours.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01I think he had a lonely life. He was unmarried.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04No family whatsoever, apart from his sister Margaret.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07At the age of 51, he...
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Presumably, he was diagnosed with a form of cancer of the lung and he
0:13:11 > 0:13:17ended up in the Crumpsall Workhouse hospital, north Manchester.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33When you sum him up, how do you see his life?
0:13:33 > 0:13:36A complete uphill struggle.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39From the day you're born to the day you go.
0:13:44 > 0:13:5064967, December the 16th, Peter Moffatt.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Basically, he was one of our ancestors
0:13:52 > 0:13:55and you reckon this is the grave he's in?
0:13:55 > 0:13:56This is the grave here, yes.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59In them days, they were referred to as pauper's graves.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03- They would bury up to 17, 20 people. - That many?- Yeah.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06They'd be just one buried on top of the other.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10- So it'd have been rather deep, then? - It would have been, yeah, 20ft plus.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15- Right. So practically, lay... Just stacked up.- Yeah.- Just stacked up.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17Yep.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22There was two burials in that grave on the same day.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26I don't suppose they'd have had a service for them either.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34They were all treated the same, weren't they,
0:14:34 > 0:14:36if you was working class?
0:14:36 > 0:14:40If you had any money, you'd be over there in the middle.
0:14:40 > 0:14:45They must have cost a fortune, whereas Peter's...
0:14:45 > 0:14:47You wouldn't know it was there.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50- You don't.- That's it. His life's come and gone.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52- There's not only Peter.- No, I know.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55There's hundreds and hundreds of people in this small plot here.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04Peter never had kids, but his nephew, Joe, my grandad,
0:15:04 > 0:15:06grew up in his shadow.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Grandad Joe's mum, Peter's sister Margaret,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17was part of the Moffatt gang.
0:15:17 > 0:15:21Joe grew up without a dad.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26He had no-one to keep him on the straight and narrow.
0:15:37 > 0:15:43His downfall was drink, gambling, smoking...
0:15:43 > 0:15:46Not bad if you've got one habit, but he had the three.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Joe met this girl called Cressy Bailey in the early '30s.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57And then they got married in 1935.
0:15:57 > 0:16:03And then it was three years later when I was born, 1938.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05She was good as gold to me.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09If I was hungry, she'd give me the last crust. Oh, aye.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12There was none of that - "You can't have this and you can't have this."
0:16:12 > 0:16:16If she could get it, I'd have got it.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19We had a nice house, it was clean.
0:16:21 > 0:16:25We even had an electric wireless.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28This might make you laugh, we had an electric wireless.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31She was that... But we didn't have electric.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35But she bought the electric wireless for when we got electric!
0:16:35 > 0:16:38That made me laugh.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41It was a bit rough in them days.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44It's a case of dog eat dog, isn't it?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47In the pubs, I know they was renowned for trouble...
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Go in them to get a few pints and get drunk
0:16:50 > 0:16:53and then the next minute, you've got an argument and that spills
0:16:53 > 0:16:56outside and you've got a fight on your hands, haven't you?
0:16:56 > 0:17:01You'd never see Joe scuffling. The pub and womanising.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03He was never out of that Ritz.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06What was your mum and dad's marriage like?
0:17:06 > 0:17:08Oh, a bit turbulent!
0:17:08 > 0:17:10Yeah.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14The only time he come home early was when he was going out.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17And that was to get spruced up.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19If he weren't going out,
0:17:19 > 0:17:23he didn't come home cos he'd be in the pub in his working clothes.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26Being a kid, you don't realise,
0:17:26 > 0:17:29but obviously she knew what was going on.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34You could hear them rowing.
0:17:34 > 0:17:35"You liar," and things like that.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40It used to upset me.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43"I'm leaving," and all that. You didn't want that.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48I don't think any kid wants their family to split up, do they?
0:17:48 > 0:17:51And that's what frightened me.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57She'd been poorly all her life.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04And one Friday night, she was sat there and she just says...
0:18:05 > 0:18:08.."Oh, I do feel funny."
0:18:08 > 0:18:11And she just started to fall off the chair,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13so I jumped up and grabbed her.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16And I laid her... She was that light.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19I was only 17 and I grabbed her, picked her up,
0:18:19 > 0:18:23and I laid her on the floor in front of the fire.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26When I got back with the doctor, he said,
0:18:26 > 0:18:28"She was dead when you grabbed her."
0:18:28 > 0:18:31That's how quick it was.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33So then it was just me and me dad left.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46It'd be round about February or March, I'd been in the army
0:18:46 > 0:18:48say four or five months.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50And I came home one night...
0:18:52 > 0:18:54..and the house was empty.
0:18:54 > 0:18:55Gone. Everything.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58Windows were whitewashed, actually.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01You could just peep through the slits.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05He sold all the furniture to neighbours.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08And just let the house go and moved in with a woman.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13So then, I was 18.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15And homeless.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24What happened to your dad?
0:19:24 > 0:19:29Well, he lived with this woman. Over 20 years.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33So when she died, he was homeless. So I took him in.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Why did you do that for him?
0:19:38 > 0:19:41Just... Just something you'd do for your own.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44He was still me own, wasn't he? He'd done me no favours,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47but that doesn't say I haven't got to do him one.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50- He hadn't done anything for you. - Doesn't make any difference.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Doesn't say I've got to be like that, does it?
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Looking back, I wouldn't say fighting's in my blood,
0:20:01 > 0:20:04but at the same time, growing up round here,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07you couldn't let yourself be pushed around.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10So maybe I did inherit a little streak of Peter Moffatt's
0:20:10 > 0:20:12fighting spirit.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15If someone picked on you, if you didn't retaliate,
0:20:15 > 0:20:18they kept picking on you.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20So, that was it.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24You're either prepared to take it all your life...or have a go back.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Someone hits you, you hit them back, don't you?
0:20:29 > 0:20:31With a shovel if you've got one.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33HE CHUCKLES
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Just comes natural, doesn't it?
0:20:37 > 0:20:42But I got through all that, grafted, got myself a job on a building site,
0:20:42 > 0:20:46then ended up doing windows and all sorts.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50Tell me about YOU becoming a dad. Did you want to have children?
0:20:51 > 0:20:55I never gave it a thought, actually, to tell you the truth.
0:20:55 > 0:20:59But I met a girl and we started courting and the next thing...
0:20:59 > 0:21:01we got married.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05Gary was born and once he was born, that was it.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08I wouldn't bail out and leave my kid.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18I'm Gary Farrar, Alan's son.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21I'm the great-great-nephew of Peter Moffatt.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31I was born in 1960 in Hulme. Did five years of school.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33Left at the first opportunity and went working.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42About '79, I acquired a job at a bakery, which is
0:21:42 > 0:21:44on the industrial estate.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47Six months into being made full-time, I thought,
0:21:47 > 0:21:49"I'm going to get on my feet here."
0:21:49 > 0:21:54I'd gone from earning £44 a week to earning over £100 a week in my hand.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57It was fantastic, it was like winning the lottery.
0:21:58 > 0:22:03Anyway, this particular morning, I finished work, I went home to bed.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06My dad used to come home every lunchtime to let the dog out.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08He had a Jack Russell at the time.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10And he come up and woke me up.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13Told me not to bother going to work in the evening
0:22:13 > 0:22:16because the bakery had shut down.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19And that was during the Thatcherite years.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24- THATCHER:- I must tell you that what we've got is an attempt to substitute
0:22:24 > 0:22:28the rule of the mob for the rule of law.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34The Thatcher years were hard times.
0:22:34 > 0:22:38A lot of factory jobs just disappeared like that overnight.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42There were more and more people on the dole, on the social.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45It was hard for our Gary. He kept trying this and that.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48- NEWS:- The imminent closure of a textile machinery plant presents
0:22:48 > 0:22:51a massive headache for the job finders.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54But there was nothing solid for him to do.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58People were just getting... Well, they decimated the mines...
0:22:58 > 0:23:00It was a hard time.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04After that, it was very, very difficult to get a job.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08How did you feel at the time?
0:23:08 > 0:23:12Quite bitter because I'd lost a job where I thought
0:23:12 > 0:23:14I was going to get on my feet.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20And all that was dragged from under my nose. It was stole from me.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26You had to make money where you could.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Without obviously stating where I'd been making my money
0:23:29 > 0:23:31and how I'd been making my money,
0:23:31 > 0:23:35I don't want to incriminate myself, but you had to improvise.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37I didn't go out thieving.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46I could have got myself involved in some real trouble.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Violence like Peter Moffatt and his mob.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52But I was determined not to mess my life up.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56It made you more resilient because I used to think to myself,
0:23:56 > 0:23:59"Right, I'm going to get on my feet here,"
0:23:59 > 0:24:01and instead of blowing everything I'd got,
0:24:01 > 0:24:04I'd govern myself for where I'd go out on a Friday night,
0:24:04 > 0:24:08Saturday dinner, Saturday night and Sunday dinner and that'd be it.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11I'd stay in the rest of the week and govern myself.
0:24:11 > 0:24:14And I achieved things and started saving money.
0:24:14 > 0:24:19There was another very important thing that helped me along too.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22I had the odd relationship here and there and whatever
0:24:22 > 0:24:25but nothing ever serious till Mandy came along.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30- What was it like being a dad? - I was made up.
0:24:30 > 0:24:31Over the moon.
0:24:31 > 0:24:35I told her, if we have a boy I wanted to call him Joe,
0:24:35 > 0:24:37after me grandad.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41A couple of years afterwards, she went in hospital to have Lois.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49We didn't have the resources to go travelling abroad.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52It was spent elsewhere, going out in local pubs
0:24:52 > 0:24:54and basically survival.
0:24:54 > 0:24:56And then I got a job at the airport.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00I was loading planes up and they were coming back and unloading them.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03I'd never flown and a guy I was working with, he said,
0:25:03 > 0:25:05"Well, do you fancy it?"
0:25:05 > 0:25:07CONTROL TOWER ON RADIO
0:25:07 > 0:25:09All right, let's go.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13- This is the most exciting bit. - Yeah, taking off and landing.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22Oh!
0:25:24 > 0:25:26- So, when was your first flight, then?- Spring '94.
0:25:26 > 0:25:31Went up in a four-seater. Me and the kids, south side of Manchester.
0:25:31 > 0:25:35- Yeah.- And I'd never flown up till that day.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38Gary never had the chance to go up in a plane.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41We couldn't afford that kind of holiday, so I think he got
0:25:41 > 0:25:45it into his head that it was something he'd never be able to do.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49It was exciting. We flew over Goodison Park.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52And Everton were playing Spurs that day.
0:25:52 > 0:25:53And Lois was laughing,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57"Look at those little people all running round the football pitch!"
0:25:59 > 0:26:00It was a great buzz.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07What did that one plane flight do for you?
0:26:07 > 0:26:10It just gave me the kick up the backside,
0:26:10 > 0:26:13saying that I should have done this years ago.
0:26:13 > 0:26:19After that, it was Corfu, Gran Canaria, Cuba, Mexico
0:26:19 > 0:26:21numerous times.
0:26:21 > 0:26:26We've been to places other people dream of.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29- Clear as a bell, isn't it? - Oh, yeah.- Fantastic.
0:26:29 > 0:26:31It has opened our horizons.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46Plastics, in number five, burnable, please, mate.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49Currently, I work at a recycling depot.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52I've never earned a lot of money, but a few years ago,
0:26:52 > 0:26:56with some hard graft and a bit of help from my dad,
0:26:56 > 0:26:58Mandy and me managed to buy our council house.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04- Being able to buy my own house was fantastic.- Are you proud?
0:27:04 > 0:27:09Yeah, I am because I eventually got up there.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13It's quite satisfying, actually, knowing that when I die,
0:27:13 > 0:27:15I'll just put it in the kids' name.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18The way it looks, I don't think they're going to leave home anyway.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21Joe, he'll probably be here when I'm an old man.
0:27:21 > 0:27:22Right, so what are we at?
0:27:22 > 0:27:25I'm trying to watch this and you keep interrupting me.
0:27:25 > 0:27:27I apologise.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30- People wonder why I send you out. - Well, let's eat then.
0:27:30 > 0:27:31T-bone steak?
0:27:31 > 0:27:33Ready meals.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36When have you ever had a ready meal?
0:27:36 > 0:27:39- I know.- Everyone knows you don't get ready meals.
0:27:39 > 0:27:44I tell you what, both of you, cooking your own tea tomorrow.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46I cook it anyway.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51When Joe left school, he went on from strength to strength.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54He ended up enrolled at Leeds Uni.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59I always knew I wanted to go to university,
0:27:59 > 0:28:03especially from a young age, but it was a bit weird because you
0:28:03 > 0:28:06didn't hear of people going, especially from, like, the area.
0:28:06 > 0:28:07It was very rare.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11To an extent that I remember a teacher in school told me
0:28:11 > 0:28:12I'd never go. So...
0:28:12 > 0:28:15Yeah, I proved her wrong.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17How did you feel when he graduated?
0:28:17 > 0:28:21Over the moon. I never thought I'd see a Farrar in an outfit like that.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24You know. I was made-up.
0:28:24 > 0:28:28Me and Lois, we've grown up, we've both gone to university, worked a
0:28:28 > 0:28:32job at the same time, so I think as opposed to the violence in the blood,
0:28:32 > 0:28:36I think it's more the hard work and the passion than anything.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41My dad, he's never encouraged me to fight. He's never...
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Actually, one of his old sayings when I was a kid was -
0:28:44 > 0:28:48violence isn't the answer. So... You know.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50Things have changed.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53If Peter Moffatt would have had them opportunities,
0:28:53 > 0:28:55what would he have been?
0:29:02 > 0:29:05The violent rivalry between the Moffatts
0:29:05 > 0:29:07and the Allmarks has petered out.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10But us Allmarks have stayed rooted in Salford.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13We're a close, tightknit family.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19I think that's what helped John the Scuttler turn his story around.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27After the fight, Judge Makinson sent John to Strangeways for four months.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33He was only 18 and unlike Peter Moffatt, I think it did him
0:29:33 > 0:29:35some good.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37It turned him.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40After John's spell in prison, I think
0:29:40 > 0:29:44it's the last straw for him, like, and he'd like to get away from it.
0:29:47 > 0:29:52He joins the army, doesn't he? Went to Africa, Boer War.
0:29:52 > 0:29:57And he turned himself round a bit in there. He was a good soldier.
0:29:59 > 0:30:03He'd have been a bit used to coming under fire in one form or another.
0:30:03 > 0:30:05Maybe hand-to-hand fighting.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08You know, he'd done it before, so he knows a bit about it.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10And how to handle himself in a situation like that,
0:30:10 > 0:30:13with a knife or a bayonet.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16He had a nice medal and mentioned in dispatches.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22Goes back to Salford, restarted the coal round.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26You had a coal business, you got a good round in,
0:30:26 > 0:30:29you could probably make a few quid at it.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33Made his business work for him. He's made himself a few bob.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36From the photo, John looks as if he's done really well.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38I'm really proud of him.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44Everyone in Salford knew the Allmarks,
0:30:44 > 0:30:47they were such a large extended family.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50We've stayed living near the same streets as John the Scuttler.
0:30:54 > 0:30:57# I found my love... #
0:30:57 > 0:31:00Salford? Well, it was dark.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Everything seemed in black and white when I was a kid.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07You know, it was just very dark and the streets, everywhere, was dirty.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13# Dirty old town... #
0:31:13 > 0:31:17You know, the walls and everything and... Grime, wasn't it?
0:31:17 > 0:31:20I don't want to bum Salford up or anything
0:31:20 > 0:31:23because it's a dirty old town, as the song goes, you know?
0:31:23 > 0:31:26I grew up in it, I knew no different.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28I knew no different.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31There was some handy lads and some all right,
0:31:31 > 0:31:35some villains that I don't want to know, you know.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38As I got older, I got into trouble like John the Scuttler.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43You're small and they think they can push you out of the way
0:31:43 > 0:31:45and things like that.
0:31:47 > 0:31:48I weren't having that.
0:31:48 > 0:31:53They hit you and you don't go down, and you hit them,
0:31:53 > 0:31:56they don't want it.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58Weapons don't appeal to me.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01That's not fighting. Fighting's stood up to one another.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04Toe-to-toe, going at it, if that's what you want.
0:32:04 > 0:32:05But nothing violent.
0:32:05 > 0:32:09I wouldn't use buckles or anything like that, just my fist and my head.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11And the boot, if they go down.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15Had buckles hit me on the head and all sorts, hit with a pint pot.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19Got all my eye bit there... He got hold of me and ripped it off.
0:32:19 > 0:32:25As time went on, I met Mary and Mary got pregnant.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34Me and Mary decided to get married.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40She'd go mad if I'd had a fight or something. She used to go mad.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43"What are you doing again? What are you doing all that for?"
0:32:45 > 0:32:48In the end, Mary had her way.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51I settled down and became a family man.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54We had kids and then in time, grandkids.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59Just like John the Scuttler.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05I've gone down the same road as him.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07Similar paths, you know.
0:33:07 > 0:33:12He's took one to give up what he was doing in his scuttling days,
0:33:12 > 0:33:14to settle down.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17Mine was just learning a bit of sense.
0:33:17 > 0:33:18But it just took me
0:33:18 > 0:33:22to about 30 to think, "I'll change me direction a little bit."
0:33:22 > 0:33:24You're responsible for each other.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26You're responsible for your children.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29And that's the be all and end all, really, isn't it,
0:33:29 > 0:33:31looking after your family.
0:33:31 > 0:33:32Aw!
0:33:34 > 0:33:38I spent most of my working life as a joiner for the council.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44When I finished that, I picked up a part-time job as a cleaner.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47Keeps me out of trouble.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49In a way, we haven't travelled very far at all.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55We're ordinary working people, the same as we ever were.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02No-one's become a judge or anything like that in my family.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06We're builders, nurses, beauticians and one's an accountant,
0:34:06 > 0:34:08so we're not millionaires.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12But we've got the same family bonds that the Allmarks have always had.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17The family have always been there, through whatever crisis you're going
0:34:17 > 0:34:20through, you know you've always got a family member to fall back on.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23It's just something that the Allmarks have done
0:34:23 > 0:34:26and it's just the strength of them, really.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29- You've been married into the Allmark family for...- 46...
0:34:29 > 0:34:31Well, 48 years in July.
0:34:31 > 0:34:32Is it 48?
0:34:32 > 0:34:34Yes.
0:34:34 > 0:34:3648 years.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39It's definitely the case that we're all really close.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41I think, growing up, everyone used to say
0:34:41 > 0:34:45I was always with my dad, like, following my dad about, like.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47I think it's the same with my dad.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49My dad's always round at my grandad's house.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52Realising where you've come from or where the family's come from,
0:34:52 > 0:34:57to what they are now, it's special, really.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59It is special.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06So what about the man who dispensed justice on us back then?
0:35:09 > 0:35:11Did his family stay in Salford?
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Are they all still in powerful jobs?
0:35:19 > 0:35:23The crimes and punishments of 100 years ago didn't just have
0:35:23 > 0:35:26consequences for the families of the scuttlers.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30In a different way, they have echoed down through my family.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36My great-grandfather, Mr Joseph Crowther Makinson,
0:35:36 > 0:35:42served as stipendiary magistrate in Salford for a great many years.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50The scuttling problem with which he was being asked to deal,
0:35:50 > 0:35:54was a relatively new kind of social problem.
0:35:56 > 0:36:00My impression is that he was very seriously engaged in his work
0:36:00 > 0:36:03and he felt that the work he did was important.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08There is an idea of justice in the family.
0:36:08 > 0:36:12That there are right ways to behave and there are wrong ways to behave
0:36:12 > 0:36:16and we would like to behave in the right way.
0:36:16 > 0:36:22'Oh, God. Grant us a vision of our city, fair as she might be.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26'A city of justice where none shall prey on others.'
0:36:28 > 0:36:32It must have been a very uneasy, uncertain,
0:36:32 > 0:36:35to some extent, unpleasant place to live.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43But with economic opportunity as well.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46I mean, there are a lot of people getting rich,
0:36:46 > 0:36:49a lot of people getting poor. Felt like a sort of frontier town.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54And Joseph Crowther Makinson was trying to establish,
0:36:54 > 0:37:01as the magistrate, some pattern of order in the Wild West.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04I mean, he was the local sheriff, to some extent.
0:37:08 > 0:37:13He not only administered justice, but seemed responsible pretty
0:37:13 > 0:37:17much for every part of the process of justice.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21Traditional custodial remedies just weren't working,
0:37:21 > 0:37:23so I think he was trying to figure out
0:37:23 > 0:37:28whether there was a different way of addressing that.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31I find it rather disturbing to think that an ancestor of mine
0:37:31 > 0:37:34had been publicly advocating the flogging of young people.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37It's not something that one would like to think
0:37:37 > 0:37:40a Makinson would be doing today.
0:37:40 > 0:37:44What about his home life? What was that like?
0:37:44 > 0:37:47He had a number of kids from two marriages.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50His first wife having died when he was quite young.
0:37:50 > 0:37:54I think he was sort of back at home at the end of the day,
0:37:54 > 0:37:59but I'm sure he was locked away in his study, reading papers
0:37:59 > 0:38:02and forming a view on the cases that were coming before him.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06It may be that he was a rather absent and perhaps quite
0:38:06 > 0:38:07neglectful parent.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10He was so focused on the work that he was doing
0:38:10 > 0:38:16as a magistrate that the family life took a bit of a backseat.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19Joseph Crowther Makinson had three sons.
0:38:19 > 0:38:24Warwick, the eldest, John Russell, and the youngest, Joseph.
0:38:31 > 0:38:36My grandfather seemed to be the most active, responsible,
0:38:36 > 0:38:39directed of the three siblings.
0:38:39 > 0:38:44He was sent away to a traditional boys' public school
0:38:44 > 0:38:48and then went on to Cambridge, like his father.
0:38:48 > 0:38:50And like his father, Joseph went on into the law,
0:38:50 > 0:38:53but then he had a rather radical change of direction
0:38:53 > 0:38:57and decided to join the Church, giving up some income,
0:38:57 > 0:39:00probably giving up some social status.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03My grandmother was bitterly disappointed.
0:39:03 > 0:39:05She never really forgave him for that.
0:39:05 > 0:39:09I don't think anybody could say that it was a successful marriage.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12My own father, Kenneth Crowther Makinson,
0:39:12 > 0:39:16was the only son of my grandparents.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19Obviously had an unhappy childhood in some respects.
0:39:21 > 0:39:26It made him a more anxious person than he would have been.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29There was nothing terribly carefree about my father.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34He went to war in 1939.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40Met my mother in Italy, became engaged
0:39:40 > 0:39:44when they'd known each other just a few days.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47I mean, it wasn't an entirely happy marriage and, in the end,
0:39:47 > 0:39:49my parents did separate.
0:39:52 > 0:39:56I didn't have a confrontational relationship with my parents.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59They were just very absent, honestly.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02It was sort of a lonely life.
0:40:05 > 0:40:07I went away to boarding school
0:40:07 > 0:40:11when I was five - to a school called St Wystans.
0:40:11 > 0:40:14It was near where I grew up in Derbyshire.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17We had long since lost our Salford roots.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20You can feel walking through the gates there, what it must have
0:40:20 > 0:40:23felt like as a really young child,
0:40:23 > 0:40:28knowing that you were waving goodbye to your parents.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32I do have a memory in the back of my mind here...of the children
0:40:32 > 0:40:35in the dormitory all sobbing themselves to sleep.
0:40:35 > 0:40:41And it being a very sad place, particularly in the evenings.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47That's me, right down in the corner in the front row.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49Looking surprisingly cheerful.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52HE CHUCKLES
0:40:52 > 0:40:57SCHOOL BELL RINGS
0:40:57 > 0:41:00Prep school and public school may not have been the happiest
0:41:00 > 0:41:04of experiences, but they did at least prepare me for university.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09I passed the necessary examinations and got myself a place at Cambridge.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16I made a great many friends who have stayed with me through my life,
0:41:16 > 0:41:21so I do look back with very happy memories on that time.
0:41:21 > 0:41:25After that, I worked at the Financial Times,
0:41:25 > 0:41:29first as a journalist and eventually as its managing director.
0:41:32 > 0:41:36I am quite driven, I suppose.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38I imagine that my grandfather
0:41:38 > 0:41:41and my great-grandfather were both quite driven people.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44So I suppose that's where it comes from,
0:41:44 > 0:41:47from that Makinson line of the family.
0:41:47 > 0:41:53I became the chairman of Penguin in 2002.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59- What does the chairman do? What's your sort of...?- Not much.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04So this is the area in which we publish the Penguin Classics,
0:42:04 > 0:42:07for which we are well-known, obviously.
0:42:07 > 0:42:12These are our top-selling books from this area of the business.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17The Makinsons left Salford generations ago
0:42:17 > 0:42:21and we've lost Joseph the magistrate's ties to the area.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24OK, I think we'll turn down er... Down here.
0:42:27 > 0:42:30We are really a global family now.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33I am based in New York, but I also work in London
0:42:33 > 0:42:36and I regularly visit Calcutta in India,
0:42:36 > 0:42:38where my wife hails from.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42I don't feel I have particularly deep roots anywhere.
0:42:42 > 0:42:47In some ways, I think it's liberating because you don't
0:42:47 > 0:42:52get sort of imprisoned by a sense of identity and affiliation,
0:42:52 > 0:42:54but I think there's a loss there as well.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56I think we all like roots and anchors
0:42:56 > 0:42:59and those aren't strong for me.
0:43:07 > 0:43:13It's been for me...necessary to sort of learn, really, how to be
0:43:13 > 0:43:17a more open person. It's not something that came naturally.
0:43:17 > 0:43:21I'm not saying this is entirely my family background.
0:43:21 > 0:43:26I think boarding school education does that to you as well, to some extent.
0:43:26 > 0:43:30I think those defence mechanisms that you learn in childhood
0:43:30 > 0:43:32make you quite resilient,
0:43:32 > 0:43:37but they also make you a little bit closed up
0:43:37 > 0:43:42when it comes to, not just relationships with a partner,
0:43:42 > 0:43:47but with close friends, with one's parents, with one's children.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50I have been divorced, my parents split up,
0:43:50 > 0:43:53my grandfather's marriage was unhappy.
0:43:53 > 0:43:55We spend a lot of time apart,
0:43:55 > 0:43:58largely because I'm away from London a good deal.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01And I do worry about keeping the closeness of this family.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07I have two children in their 20s.
0:44:07 > 0:44:11Emma, who is the elder daughter, and Lucy, who is the younger daughter.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15They are two children that I had with my first wife.
0:44:15 > 0:44:20Curiously enough, both of them ended up going to
0:44:20 > 0:44:26study at Cambridge as well and they're bright, great, attractive...
0:44:26 > 0:44:28Lovely, nice children.
0:44:28 > 0:44:34I'm obviously totally objective on this issue, but they're fantastic.
0:44:34 > 0:44:36This is a very nice Brunello di Montelcino.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40My friends, when I was younger, always used to like coming round
0:44:40 > 0:44:43- to my dad's house. - Because there was nice wine?
0:44:43 > 0:44:45Yeah, cos you were very generous with it.
0:44:45 > 0:44:46- I am.- Cheers.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50- Cheers, my love. - Is this a regular...?- What? Cooking?
0:44:50 > 0:44:52Yeah.
0:44:52 > 0:44:53Fairly. Not as often as we'd like.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Since dad's moved primarily to New York,
0:44:56 > 0:44:58we just see each other much less.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02So, we both recognise that we have to make more of a kind of effort.
0:45:02 > 0:45:06So, Dad and Luce and I can all easily go a month,
0:45:06 > 0:45:09- maybe even two months, without speaking to each other, right?- Yeah.
0:45:09 > 0:45:13- It's certainly not very emotionally demanding.- No.
0:45:13 > 0:45:18We've grown up in a family that's sort of made work a bit of a
0:45:18 > 0:45:22priority and always worked very hard and telling each other
0:45:22 > 0:45:26how much we love each other the whole time, I mean, that's just not...
0:45:26 > 0:45:29- That's not really an important thing to any of us, very much.- No.
0:45:29 > 0:45:30No, not very.
0:45:30 > 0:45:36There's a sort of stability that comes with kind of, you know,
0:45:36 > 0:45:41putting your family first and I'm quite envious, in many ways,
0:45:41 > 0:45:44of my friends who have a nuclear family with whom
0:45:44 > 0:45:51they still, in their 30s, go to dinner every Friday night and that's...
0:45:51 > 0:45:53I think that's really nice.
0:45:57 > 0:46:03Being a good parent is not really a learnt skill, is it?
0:46:03 > 0:46:07It's an attitude and it's a consistency
0:46:07 > 0:46:13and it's an availability and it's an openness.
0:46:13 > 0:46:19I did spend some time some years ago...examining through quite
0:46:19 > 0:46:24an intensive therapy process - my relationship with my parents
0:46:24 > 0:46:27cos I really did want to come to understand it better
0:46:27 > 0:46:31and to some extent come to terms with it.
0:46:31 > 0:46:36I think as you recognise patterns of behaviour
0:46:36 > 0:46:42and attitudes that migrate across generations,
0:46:42 > 0:46:47you learn quite a lot about yourself.
0:46:47 > 0:46:49The Makinsons have, I suppose,
0:46:49 > 0:46:51been a consistently successful family,
0:46:51 > 0:46:53in terms of their professional achievements,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56but to succeed in environments like the courtroom
0:46:56 > 0:46:58and boarding school,
0:46:58 > 0:47:02perhaps we've had to keep some of our personal feelings buried,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05so we have really had to work to keep talking about anything
0:47:05 > 0:47:06and everything.
0:47:06 > 0:47:11I mean, the sort of generational echoes are amazingly loud sometimes
0:47:11 > 0:47:17and the more you look into them, the louder they become.
0:47:17 > 0:47:22I mean, certainly in exploring my relationships with my own
0:47:22 > 0:47:26parents and grandparents, the more you look into that
0:47:26 > 0:47:33and dig around into that issue, the more echoes you find, so we are all
0:47:33 > 0:47:37prisoners sometimes, in a positive way, of our family histories.
0:47:43 > 0:47:47- Gingerbread man! Gingerbread man! - Gingerbread man!
0:47:47 > 0:47:51'There is another descendant of Joseph Makinson the magistrate.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56'That's my family line.'
0:47:56 > 0:47:58You want some? Bring it!
0:47:58 > 0:48:00Do a handstand!
0:48:00 > 0:48:02We're Makinsons too.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04Yay!
0:48:04 > 0:48:08But we've never met John Makinson. And he's never heard of us.
0:48:08 > 0:48:10We're his cousins.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19I like a noisy house.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22I like some warmth to be within a house
0:48:22 > 0:48:27and I think that comes from the people that live within it.
0:48:27 > 0:48:29Turn them all over now!
0:48:29 > 0:48:30Oh, hang on.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32- Igloo!- Taxi!
0:48:32 > 0:48:36So how did we become so far removed from the world of our cousins?
0:48:42 > 0:48:46Joseph Makinson had three boys.
0:48:46 > 0:48:51There was Warwick, there was John and there was Joseph.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55Warwick was my father's father.
0:48:55 > 0:48:59Joseph was quite strict, both in his religious beliefs,
0:48:59 > 0:49:04which was Wesleyan, but also strict within the family.
0:49:04 > 0:49:08As children often do, they either want to emulate their father,
0:49:08 > 0:49:13or be the complete opposite and I think Warwick wanted the opposite
0:49:13 > 0:49:15to his father.
0:49:19 > 0:49:24Warwick met and married a lady called Maude. Maude with an E.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26As she always told me.
0:49:26 > 0:49:32And she was the daughter of a local drapery clerk in a warehouse.
0:49:32 > 0:49:37Now, I think you can see that's a totally different class.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45There's nothing wrong with being in a warehouse,
0:49:45 > 0:49:47it's better than being down a pit.
0:49:47 > 0:49:49But it's not a magistrate, is it?
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Warwick's father felt he had to be there, but I can't
0:49:55 > 0:49:58see that he would have been overly pleased
0:49:58 > 0:50:02at Warwick's choice of wife.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08Warwick and Maude had three children.
0:50:08 > 0:50:09First of all, they had Joseph.
0:50:09 > 0:50:13Then they had Clifford and finally they had Josephine.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17But after the death of their daughter,
0:50:17 > 0:50:21Warwick and Maude's marriage fell apart.
0:50:21 > 0:50:26Warwick had an affair with a woman called Mabel.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29He left with her to Australia
0:50:29 > 0:50:31and our family never heard from him again.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37I think that's a disgrace. An absolute disgrace.
0:50:39 > 0:50:46I think it shows a weak, almost worthless individual.
0:50:48 > 0:50:52Within his will, he said he had, quote, "no issues",
0:50:52 > 0:50:57which I believe means no dependents, he had completely written out
0:50:57 > 0:51:03and written off my gran, my uncle and my father.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11Warwick's adultery turned us
0:51:11 > 0:51:14from a middle-class family into a working-class family.
0:51:17 > 0:51:19From being very comfortably off,
0:51:19 > 0:51:22the Makinsons were suddenly fighting for survival.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30I don't think my dad had a very nice childhood at all.
0:51:32 > 0:51:37My father went to a blue coat school, which was in Lancashire.
0:51:37 > 0:51:41It was a very disciplined and strict school, for those who were poor.
0:51:44 > 0:51:46When he was old enough,
0:51:46 > 0:51:49he left and he went and joined the merchant navy.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53Got on a merchant ship from Liverpool.
0:51:53 > 0:51:57My dad, Cliff, was in the merchant navy for five years.
0:52:01 > 0:52:05In 1935, he came back to England and got a job as a labourer.
0:52:11 > 0:52:15My mum met my father in Hastings.
0:52:15 > 0:52:21And my dad was digging a hole in the road, was just a labourer.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23And she liked the look of his back.
0:52:26 > 0:52:30It can't have been a very gentle aroma...
0:52:30 > 0:52:33but it wasn't enough to put my mum off my dad's back.
0:52:33 > 0:52:35Apparently so!
0:52:40 > 0:52:42Although my dad, Cliff,
0:52:42 > 0:52:45didn't have the wealth that there had been in the past,
0:52:45 > 0:52:50he had the wealth of having a loving family and I can honestly say
0:52:50 > 0:52:55I can't remember an unhappy day within my childhood.
0:53:00 > 0:53:02Learning about your past,
0:53:02 > 0:53:07how has that helped you understand more about yourself?
0:53:07 > 0:53:13There's been similarities with divorces and separations.
0:53:13 > 0:53:19Maude being abandoned and deserted and left to bring up two small boys.
0:53:19 > 0:53:23I was left without a penny in my purse, with three young girls,
0:53:23 > 0:53:26and had to make do.
0:53:26 > 0:53:30Maude kept things going for her boys.
0:53:30 > 0:53:34I mean, how my father turned out to be such a lovely,
0:53:34 > 0:53:39lovely man is either down to his inner goodness or
0:53:39 > 0:53:43because of the education that Maude gave him, or both.
0:53:43 > 0:53:45If she brought up my dad and my dad was so lovely,
0:53:45 > 0:53:48thank you very much, Maude.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59It was a crimewave 125 years ago which first brought together
0:53:59 > 0:54:03the Moffatts, Allmarks and the Makinsons.
0:54:03 > 0:54:07Back then, Makinson believed harsher punishment was a solution.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10I don't agree. Two wrongs don't make a right.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15The person who freed us from the past
0:54:15 > 0:54:17and changed our fortunes - was my dad.
0:54:17 > 0:54:21It was him sticking by us that helped our family get on its feet.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28But what about the Makinsons and the Allmarks?
0:54:28 > 0:54:31I'm about to see how it all turned out for them.
0:54:35 > 0:54:39Um... Bit like myself, I suppose. You know, working class people.
0:54:39 > 0:54:44I'm apprehensive and a bit nervous, yeah. Yeah.
0:54:44 > 0:54:48How's it going to go? You know, I hope we don't all start scuttling.
0:54:48 > 0:54:50HE CHUCKLES
0:54:55 > 0:54:58Joseph Crowther Makinson was the
0:54:58 > 0:55:03stipendiary magistrate in Salford at that time.
0:55:03 > 0:55:05So relationships between him
0:55:05 > 0:55:08and the other families, at that time, were not very harmonious.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10We hope we'll get on a bit better later today.
0:55:10 > 0:55:11Is he a judge now?
0:55:11 > 0:55:14They usually stay in that profession, don't they?
0:55:14 > 0:55:18I hope it's nobody I've ever met!
0:55:18 > 0:55:19THEY LAUGH
0:55:23 > 0:55:26I'm John Makinson and I'm the great...
0:55:26 > 0:55:30- So, we are the great-grandsons of Joseph Crowther Makinson.- Hello.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32You're a Makinson, aren't you?
0:55:32 > 0:55:36- Hello, John.- Nice to meet you. - This is my daughter, Kristal.
0:55:36 > 0:55:39- Hi, Kristal. I'm John.- How did you know that we were Makinsons?
0:55:39 > 0:55:42- It's the Makinson nose. - Is it?
0:55:42 > 0:55:43The Makinson nose.
0:55:43 > 0:55:45- Who are you?- Allmark, Raymond.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48- Hello.- Pleased to meet you, John. - Hello.- How are you doing?
0:55:48 > 0:55:51- Hi, I'm Gary Farrar.- John Allmark. How are you doing?
0:55:51 > 0:55:54We're just trying to keep peace here.
0:55:54 > 0:55:56LAUGHTER
0:55:56 > 0:55:58Oh, wow!
0:55:58 > 0:56:01I knew straight away who you was. You were the Moffatt.
0:56:01 > 0:56:05They are some wonderful people. The Allmarks are great.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09They're just like us, working-class folk. And it's been good.
0:56:09 > 0:56:11I feel privileged.
0:56:11 > 0:56:12LAUGHTER
0:56:15 > 0:56:18- Get in! That's it, isn't it? - Good game!
0:56:20 > 0:56:22She's a stirrer. She's just trying to provoke a reaction.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25- We're OK, aren't we?- All right. - Thank you very much, Emily.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28- We're perfectly all right. - I'm waiting for it to go dark.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30LAUGHTER
0:56:30 > 0:56:36I've been very struck by how close, as families, the other two families are.
0:56:36 > 0:56:40They're quite large families and ours is quite a small family, really.
0:56:40 > 0:56:46But they are large and very interconnected families.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49- We're not that bad, are we? - You're not, no.
0:56:49 > 0:56:53Perhaps because they have stayed close to here, the scene of
0:56:53 > 0:56:58the action, for generations, and live close to each other to this day,
0:56:58 > 0:57:01and that's not true of my family.
0:57:01 > 0:57:03We're a diaspora.
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Good or bad.
0:57:05 > 0:57:07Beautiful.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10So how are you related, then?
0:57:10 > 0:57:15- How are we related? Cousins? - I guess we're cousins. Yeah, so...
0:57:15 > 0:57:17- Second cousins?- I don't know.
0:57:17 > 0:57:20That way a little bit more?
0:57:20 > 0:57:22Our history is the tale of two fathers...
0:57:22 > 0:57:25- GIGGLING - What?
0:57:25 > 0:57:30..one who did a disappearing act and the one who was always there.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32One more of those.
0:57:32 > 0:57:37I think my story has shown strong families triumphing over
0:57:37 > 0:57:40misfortunes and not rich at all -
0:57:40 > 0:57:45money-wise. But family-wise, very, very rich.
0:57:45 > 0:57:48Yeah, I think the family is at the heart of our story.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51The Allmarks have always looked out for one another.
0:57:51 > 0:57:53That's what helped us get out of the slums.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56The marriages have stuck together.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58- That's made them stronger still.- Yeah.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00They've stayed together,
0:58:00 > 0:58:04the families have all been... All tightknit.
0:58:04 > 0:58:07- Everyone's an Allmark or a descendant of an Allmark.- Mm.
0:58:11 > 0:58:15Along the lines, we are learning. We're not stuck in rock bottom.
0:58:17 > 0:58:21Peter Moffatt was on his backside, basically. Destitute.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25Joe's been to university, Lois is at university.
0:58:25 > 0:58:28So I feel privileged, on that score, and I'm proud of that.
0:58:30 > 0:58:35What do you think Peter Moffatt would have made of today's meeting?
0:58:35 > 0:58:37He'd have probably pinched our coats.
0:58:39 > 0:58:43- And three, two, one. - ALL: Salford!