Couples Money


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-How often do you have arguments about money?

-Hmmm!

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Too often for my liking.

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I've broken the bank to buy things for her,

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but that's because, you know, she's special.

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It's not one of my skills, really. I don't think I'd ever be good with money.

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# It takes two, baby

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# It takes two, baby

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# Me and you

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# Just take two

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# It takes two, baby

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# It takes two, baby

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# To make a dream come true

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# Just take two. #

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In households across the country,

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money causes more arguments than anything else.

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Whether you're rich or poor, young or old, a spender or a saver,

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money affects your relationship with your partner on a daily basis.

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So, how do couples negotiate this perilous territory,

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and what is the recipe for financial harmony?

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What is it, love?

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BABY CRIES

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Vicky is 26, and lives at home with her parents.

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She and her fiance, Jonathan, are both doctors.

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They've been going out for three years and are making careful plans for married life.

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We've talked a lot about the financial aspects of how we're going to manage together,

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both because we are the kind of people that worry about stuff

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a long time in advance and would love to spend a good Sunday afternoon dissecting it,

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but also because we went to a marriage prep course,

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and they put much more uncomfortable situations in front of us

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than just how are you going to deal financially.

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They went quite carefully through a series of domestic chores

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and roles in the house, and said "Who did this - your mum or your dad?"

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So, who was the saver, who was the spender?

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Who cleans the loo? Who does the cooking?

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Who does the family shopping? Who plans the holidays?

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Who runs the social aspect of your family?

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All that kind of stuff, and then got you to compare

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the templates of your backgrounds, and therefore what expectations

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you have for how your roles will play out in your own marriage.

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I was kind of amazed at how many people really hadn't talked

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about this before they'd got to really quite close to their wedding.

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-And you and Jonathan had talked about those things?

-We'd talked about a lot of it, yeah.

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Both our families have a great deal of shared values,

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I think they're a similar class, and we are, kind of, singing

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from the same song sheet, in terms of what we want to do

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and achieve, and that's probably why Vicky and I get on so well.

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# I love you because you understand, dear

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# Every little thing I try to do

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# You're always there to lend a helping hand, dear

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# But most of all, I love you, cos you're you. #

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Natalie and David live in Nantwich, in Cheshire.

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They've been together eight years, and have two small boys, James and Harry.

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# I love you for the way you never doubt me

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# But most of all, I love you cos you're you. #

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How did the two of you meet, and when was that?

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That would have been 2000...

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Yeah, all right! Beginning of 2003.

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We met in Birkbeck Bar,

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which is the students' union bar of Birkbeck College, in London.

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And tell me what happened next.

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-Erm.

-Well, we accidentally fell pregnant with James.

-We? I didn't!

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-Well, you know, you were there!

-Yes.

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-So, how long after you first met was that?

-About six weeks!

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We decided that we would stay together and give it a go,

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basically, and so we moved in together shortly after,

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and then, about five months into my pregnancy, we got married,

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and then James came the following February, so yeah.

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-All a bit quick, really, but...

-It was, yeah.

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By the time we'd been together a year, we were married

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and had had James, you know, so it was very, very quick.

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-What is Dave like with money?

-Tight.

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Worried, paranoid, anxious. Terrible, drives me nuts.

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-What do you want me to do?

-Get one of his arms out!

-His arm? OK.

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I'll want to take the boys out, you know, to Alton Towers,

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or wherever, you know, or Chester Zoo, and spend money on them,

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but you kind of rein me in, and, you know.

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Even if sometimes, I'll say "Let's go out today, and we'll do this,

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and we'll go here, and we'll take the boys to Lego City at the

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Trafford Centre, or something", and Dave'll say "Oh, hang on a

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minute", and then there'll be such a kind of disagreement between us,

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that even if I get my way, even if we go, the whole day is spoilt

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because I know Dave is pulling his face over every single penny spent.

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If the money's there, fine. If it isn't, hang back a bit.

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Any fun is banned in this house!

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Thank you(!) I did not say...

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Fun is banned! There will be no days out for you children.

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Eat porridge, nothing else.

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GOSPEL CHOIR SINGS

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Dominic and his wife, Irene, live in Aldershot, in Surrey.

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Dominic is a pensions adviser,

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and Irene works for the Air Accident Investigations Branch.

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They both earn roughly the same amount of money.

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-Where did you both grow up?

-We both grew up in Ghana.

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But, I mean, we've done a lot of, you know, growing up here in

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the UK as well, and that's sometimes the difficult thing,

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trying to balance our Ghanaian cultures

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with the British cultures as well.

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We grew up in the Catholic belief, but also in a traditional Ghanaian belief,

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what a man should and shouldn't do, what a woman should do and shouldn't do,

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the responsibilities that a man should have, and things like that.

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Father. May your name be held holy.

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Your kingdom come.

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Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins.

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Irene, is Dominic good with money?

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Yes, I think he is, because...

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I think we work hard to be...

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We balance out, because I'm the type who just...

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I like to be comfortable, very comfortable, and I don't mind

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spending my last penny to be comfortable, but he's the one who,

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you know, he's quite disciplined, and he thinks before spending.

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I think we've just drawn each other to the middle, if you like,

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because he was quite... I don't want to use the word stingy,

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-but he was extremely...

-Officially Mr Scrooge!

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Yeah!

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He was extremely disciplined with money,

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to the extent that you work

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and don't enjoy what comes in.

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Were you ever in trouble with money? Did you ever overspend?

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-Yeah, I used to overspend.

-Did you have debt when you met Dominic?

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Yes, I did, which is now paid off,

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because I think I'm a lot more disciplined now.

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He's the one in debt now!

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-Yeah.

-Is that true?

-Yep!

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Not so much in debt, but yeah.

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I bought a car, so... A BMW.

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I was trying to impress her, you know!

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# I got my mind set on you

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# I got my mind set on you

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# I got my mind set on you

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# I got my mind set on you

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# But it's going to take money

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# A whole lot of spending money

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# It's going to take plenty of money

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# To do it, to do it

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# To do it, to do it

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# To do it, to do it. #

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My downfall, or my shortfall is that I like to do things

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that put a smile on Irene's face.

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I've broken the bank to buy things for her,

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but that's because, you know, she's special, and I want her to

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feel special, and I want that smile on her face when I get it to her.

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-Do you buy presents for Dominic in the same way?

-I do, yeah.

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He's always complaining. You buy him presents and he's like, "That's too much money!"

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So, when you buy Irene a lovely present, then it's smiles all round,

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but when she buys you a present, you worry about the money!

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He does, absolutely, yeah.

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I'm not very good with accepting presents, no.

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-Do you think you like being treated like a princess?

-Yes, it's nice.

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Not all the time, I treat him like a prince sometimes,

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so it's both ways, not just one way all the time.

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Not all the time, but most of the time.

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-Yeah, but it's nice to be treated like that.

-It's not just nice.

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I think you love it, you know, you love...

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and you deserve it, but you'd love it.

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-Yeah, it's nice, yeah.

-Do you expect it?

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-Do you expect him to treat you like that?

-Sometimes, sometimes, yeah.

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I like to be, you know, probably sounding more Ghanaian than

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British, but I like to be the man, I like to feel in charge,

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and I think, some of the times, I've gone out of my way to pay for things, because I'm the man.

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-What do you think?

-Yeah.

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You've made me pay for things, because you think I'm the man, or you say I'm the man!

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Yeah. I like to have him, for example,

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paying for things, because he is the man.

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Yeah, I think, partly it's because of our upbringing, really.

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The men are usually in charge, if you like.

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Even if it's my money we're using to pay,

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I don't mind giving it to him and saying, "Give it to the person,

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"so it looks like you're paying for it", so, yeah.

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Matt and Nicola have recently got married.

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They live in Chesterfield, in Derbyshire.

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-Nicola, how old are you?

-20.

-And Matt, how old are you?

-24.

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25th of the ninth, 1986.

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Let's see your tattoos, Nicola.

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-Matt's name.

-And when did you get Matt's name done?

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About two month after we'd been together!

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We met on a two-week course at the Phoenix.

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-It was a job seekers course?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

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And when we first met, I just loved looking at her, I did.

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-When we kissed for the first time...

-Took us two weeks to even kiss.

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Or touch each other, hold hands or owt,

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and then when we did kiss, my heart were pounding,

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and you could tell, because what did you say to your mate when you come back in?

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Felt really nice. Got a really nice feeling.

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-And you're married.

-Yep.

-Yep.

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-How long ago did you get married?

-Three month ago.

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I were 15 when I left school. I did my GCSEs, but I didn't get very good grades.

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And how about you, Matt?

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I was kicked out at age 15, and I didn't leave with nowt,

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and then I went to college to finish my school year off,

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but I didn't get nowt out of that as well.

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And then, that's it, I lived in hostels after that.

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-So you left home after you left school?

-Yeah.

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So since you left school, Nicola, what jobs have you had?

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I worked at McDonald's, worked at Thorntons, did telesales.

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-And what happened to your job at McDonald's?

-I got the sack.

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-Why were you sacked?

-Swearing.

-For swearing? Who did you swear at?

-The boss.

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And then you worked in Thorntons, the chocolate shop, and how long did you work there?

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Not for long, because it were only temporary, throughout Christmas, and I got it near Christmas.

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I were only there about three week, I think, something like that.

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And then you did telesales for a bit. Did you like that?

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No, not really, but I did it. I just wanted a job.

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-And what happened to that job?

-I got laid off. Only temporary, so...

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-And so, when did you last have a job?

-About two year ago.

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So, Matt, tell me about jobs you've had since you left school.

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One.

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Working in bar work, and that were about two year ago, so if I add

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up all the time we've been signing on, it would be about six year.

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Six years altogether.

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-You're both on benefits now. What benefits are you on?

-Jobseeker's allowance.

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-OK. And you too, Nicola?

-Yep.

-And how much do you get?

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-It varies, don't it?

-Yeah.

-Between 185 to 200 a fortnight.

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-So it's about 100 quid a week, or a bit less.

-Yeah.

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So you pay your bills, and then how much is left in your hand?

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-It varies from 40 to 60, don't it?

-Yeah.

-A fortnight?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

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Save yourself a fortune this week, you don't need to spend one.

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-What can you buy for that?

-Bought cheap stuff.

-What kind of things?

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Cheap gammon, bacon, spaghetti bolognese, cheap meat.

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That's all, we've just kept buying cheap meat, frozen stuff,

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I got a packet of frozen veg for 36p.

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Just buy stuff like that, what's reet cheap.

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And so some stuff don't taste nice, does it, but...

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-So I cook, you wash, don't you?

-I wash the pots, after he's done.

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-And Nicola, is Matt a good cook?

-Yeah. Not bad!

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You like my spaghetti bolognese, don't you?

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-Do you want your sweets?

-Yeah.

-Which ones do you want?

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Because I'm cooking, I'm always thinking about the meals

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and what we can get, but she don't, she goes "Oh, let's get some

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"crisps, let's get some chocolate, let's go and get some sweets!"

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It does bring you down, you're in a vicious circle,

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because you only get this amount of money, and you spend it

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on what you can, and even if you waste it, you're, like, "Damn".

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"Got to wait two week, now."

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Cheers.

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# All I really want is money in my pocket

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# Cash in my hand, oh, skrilla in my wallet

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# All I really want is money in my pocket

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# Cash in my hand, yeah, skrilla in my wallet, yeah. #

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My grandfather started an East India company,

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and they had a lot of furniture from India,

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and you can see that rather elaborate cupboard, there.

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I had an aunt who was quite a famous painter.

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She painted my mother, which is up there,

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and funnily enough, Mother is wearing an Indian shawl,

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which my grandfather got from somewhere, and as you can see,

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she's sitting on an Indian stool, and I can show you the Indian

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stool in the dining room, which the cat's sitting on.

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First of all, let me ask you both how old you are.

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-Chantal?

-I'm 71.

-And I'm 77. No, I'm not, I'm 78, I'm sorry!

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We've been together 48 years this year. 48 years in October.

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-How old were you when you married Eddie?

-23.

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-And then, how old were you when you had your first child?

-24.

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-And then, you had how many children altogether?

-Four altogether.

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Would you have wanted a job, do you think?

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Well, what you've never had you don't miss.

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Chantal and Eddie live in the Home Counties.

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Eddie has had a long and distinguished career in finance,

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and aged 78, he's still working.

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How much is your annual income now?

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Oh, it's not very large.

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In total it's probably about, what, 120,000, something like that.

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How much is this house worth, roughly?

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Well, it's difficult to say.

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-At the moment.

-At the moment.

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My guess is somewhere between 1.5 and two million.

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Without sounding pompous or arrogant, one is very grateful for what one's got.

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-Do the two of you have a joint account?

-No.

-Why not?

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Why not? I don't agree with a joint account.

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I honestly don't want to know what Chantal spends.

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-Well, you do know, sometimes, because I tell you!

-Yes.

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No, I think it's much better to be independent.

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-You've supported Chantal all this time.

-Yes.

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So when you say it's important for her to be independent, what does that mean?

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Well, it means I give her a certain amount,

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and I've always given her a certain amount of money per month,

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and, also, I have passed on a certain amount of capital to her.

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How much money goes into Chantal's account every month?

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-About eight...

-£900.

-£900.

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And what's that nominally for, that money?

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Well, food.

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You know, I think it's important to eat nice things, to eat well,

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I'm a keen cook. Most of my clothes, the odd present.

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If there were expenses in a particular month that meant

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that you were spending more than your 900, I don't know, if all

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the grandchildren had birthdays, and you went out and bought all

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their birthday presents, and there was no money left, what happens then?

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Well, if I spend money which is outside the routine,

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if you go through my bank statements it's always Sainsbury's, Waitrose,

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then if it's a present, if it's Christmas, I present him with a bill of the extra money I spent.

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-So then, Eddie, you then reimburse Chantal, do you?

-Yes, yes.

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But is there anything that either of you spend money on that you wouldn't tell the other person?

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Well, I don't think Eddie cares what I spend on the hairdresser,

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or that sort of thing, no, but there's nothing I would keep secret.

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-And what about you, Eddie?

-No, I never discuss what I spend.

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I don't have to know everything that Eddie spends, it's none of my business.

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It is a traditional setup. It's a lack of autonomy, in a way.

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I'm perfectly comfortable on relying on his expertise and intelligence,

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and I know that he will do the best for the two of us.

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Our daily life is fairly harmonious.

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I think people tend to argue if they're on top of each other,

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but we live fairly separate lives.

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-We have space.

-We've got space and got our own interests,

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and I've still got quite a lot of work.

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MUSIC: "For The Love Of Money" by The O'Jays

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# Some people got to have it

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# Some people really need it

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# You want to do things, do things

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# Do things, good things with it, yeah... #

0:22:180:22:23

Nick and Keith live in Sheffield, and have been together for three years.

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Keith, tell me what Nick is like with money.

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Erm, Nick with money, erm... Frivolous, I would think. Yeah.

0:22:360:22:41

Yeah, he has money, he spends money, he buys things,

0:22:430:22:47

gadgety things, things to me that, probably, he never uses.

0:22:470:22:53

Buys loads of clothes.

0:22:540:22:57

-How many T-shirts does he have?

-Oh, God, loads!

0:22:570:23:01

Well over, got to be over a hundred. Must be over a hundred.

0:23:010:23:04

-They've got a wardrobe full...

-Is that true? You've got more than 100 T-shirts?

0:23:040:23:07

-Yeah, it might be a bit more than 100.

-No, I don't think so.

-It can't be far off.

0:23:070:23:11

Nick, can you characterise for me what Keith is like with money?

0:23:120:23:16

Well, he's very, erm, paranoid about money.

0:23:180:23:23

He, sort of, gets...

0:23:230:23:28

It does go in fits and starts, but he sometimes gets very,

0:23:280:23:32

very antsy about not having enough money.

0:23:320:23:35

We have a joint account. We've got a joint current account,

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and we've got a joint credit card that Keith manages.

0:23:380:23:42

He collects all the receipts and keeps them for a month,

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and then when the credit card bill arrives, then he sits there

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and ticks it all up, and I'm like, what are you doing?

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And then he goes mental for, like, "What's this?

0:23:560:24:00

"Three pounds unaccounted for?"

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And then he'll ask me, "Have you been to such and such a place and spent three quid?"

0:24:040:24:08

And I'm like, no. "You have!"

0:24:080:24:11

And, from there, it goes into a bit of a frenzy.

0:24:110:24:15

-I do all the shopping for food.

-Yeah.

0:24:160:24:18

-I don't think you ever go into a supermarket, do you?

-No.

0:24:180:24:22

And are you happy with the amount Nick spends on food?

0:24:220:24:25

-Erm, kind of yes and no.

-Liar!

0:24:250:24:28

If you were buying eggs, what kind of eggs would you buy, Nick?

0:24:290:24:32

I would buy free range, and you would buy the battery...

0:24:320:24:34

Eggs, to me, is just like eggs,

0:24:340:24:36

but I am a fish and chip and or a pie, chips and peas man.

0:24:360:24:41

So, does it annoy you, Keith,

0:24:440:24:46

that Nick comes back with free range eggs, when you know battery eggs are cheaper?

0:24:460:24:50

-Erm...

-Do you just think he's wasting money? Come on, be honest, Keith!

0:24:500:24:55

I'll be quite honest, I do look at receipts and think, really? You could have got that cheaper!

0:24:550:25:01

I spend quite a lot of money from my own account on food,

0:25:010:25:04

because then I can throw the receipt away, so he doesn't actually see it!

0:25:040:25:08

So you're secretly shopping for food that you know Keith would disallow, is that right?

0:25:080:25:12

-Not necessarily, but...

-Feels like that to me!

0:25:120:25:16

But then does Keith not say "Hang on a minute,

0:25:160:25:20

"there's a jar of oyster sauce here, and I haven't seen a receipt for it?"

0:25:200:25:23

Oh, yeah, he'll sometimes just open the freezer door to get something,

0:25:230:25:26

and he'll be like "What's all this?"

0:25:260:25:27

We've fought more about money than anything else.

0:25:290:25:34

Can you see yourself resolving your differences any more,

0:25:340:25:39

or do you think you've come as far as you can come, and you'll just carry on arguing?

0:25:390:25:43

I don't think they'll ever be resolved entirely.

0:25:430:25:46

The test of the resolve would be if I start managing the current account and credit card!

0:25:460:25:51

Could that ever happen?

0:25:510:25:53

That would not happen, I could not cope with that!

0:25:530:25:55

That would literally...

0:25:550:25:57

I couldn't cope with it, and that is true,

0:25:570:26:00

I could not cope with something like that.

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I'd be panicking. I'd have sleepless nights, I'd be checking, I'd be pestering him,

0:26:030:26:07

"Show me the statements, show me this, show me that."

0:26:070:26:10

No, I could not tolerate that. I couldn't cope with it.

0:26:100:26:14

It's a way of thinking, and it's like we said earlier, if I went

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to get a tenner out, or 20 quid out, I have to have a mini statement.

0:26:180:26:23

Some people might call it an OCD.

0:26:230:26:26

-I don't know, but...

-How often are you getting a mini statement?

0:26:280:26:31

Every day?

0:26:340:26:35

Is it really everyday, Keith?

0:26:360:26:38

Not on a Sunday!

0:26:410:26:42

-So, six days a week.

-Most days.

0:26:480:26:51

-The money is always there, so why would you do it?

-And what's the answer to that?

0:26:510:26:54

-I don't know.

-You just feel better when you've done it?

-Yeah. Yeah.

0:26:590:27:02

It's always right, so why...

0:27:020:27:05

-And you always know before you do it what it's going to say?

-Yeah.

0:27:050:27:08

My dad was a steelworker, my mum was a school dinnerlady, and money was tight.

0:27:140:27:19

So you've got the same attitude your parents had?

0:27:190:27:24

Erm, yeah. Yeah.

0:27:240:27:27

Presumably, though, you're much better off than your parents were.

0:27:270:27:29

Are you?

0:27:310:27:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know.

0:27:330:27:36

But you don't feel it, really?

0:27:360:27:38

I think that's true. I think that's very, very true.

0:27:380:27:41

Do you wish you weren't like this, Keith?

0:27:440:27:46

That's a good question, erm...

0:27:520:27:54

Yeah, yeah. I think it would be nice to be a bit more like Nick.

0:27:560:28:02

I'm getting better, I'm getting there!

0:28:030:28:06

If you'd like to pop the card in for me.

0:28:200:28:22

Dominic, Irene came back with some bags this morning.

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Has she shown you what she bought?

0:28:280:28:30

She tried to, but I didn't want to know!

0:28:320:28:34

The prices and things are what really gets to me, sometimes.

0:28:340:28:39

-So, do you know how much she spent this morning?

-No.

0:28:390:28:42

-Would you like the receipt in the bag?

-Please.

0:28:420:28:44

-Are you going to tell him?

-No!

0:28:440:28:46

-She doesn't realise that I've got a way of finding out!

-How?

0:28:470:28:51

-Sometimes I have a look at either your bank statement or my bank statement!

-Really?

0:28:510:28:57

Or maybe you left the receipt. Normally, you leave the receipts in the bag.

0:28:570:29:01

-You're not allowed to look at my bank statement.

-Yeah, I am!

0:29:010:29:05

I look at your bank statement all the time anyway!

0:29:050:29:09

Did you not know that, Irene, that he's checking your bank statements?

0:29:090:29:12

Not behind my back.

0:29:120:29:13

And, Irene, do you know, day-to-day,

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how much money Dominic's got in his account?

0:29:180:29:20

I don't, no.

0:29:200:29:22

He's got quite a few accounts, and I know he's...

0:29:220:29:26

Should I say?

0:29:260:29:29

THEY SPEAK A GHANAIAN LANGUAGE

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Sorry about that.

0:29:420:29:43

She's questioning about my account now, it's all your fault!

0:29:450:29:49

One thing that she doesn't notice is that, sometimes, I try to,

0:29:490:29:53

you know, when I don't think, when she says "Oh, we should get this, we should get this"

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and I don't think we should, sometimes I tell her "Oh, no, I'm a bit broke this month,

0:29:570:30:01

"so let's wait".

0:30:010:30:03

I shouldn't have said this, but that's one of the reasons why she says about your overdraft,

0:30:030:30:08

and things like that, because sometimes I make her think that, you know, we have to be careful.

0:30:080:30:13

-OK, so you pretended, you pretend.

-He does, I thought he was, yeah!

0:30:130:30:18

I think she'll be happier, whether buying a shirt or buying something for the house,

0:30:180:30:23

or financial security, I think she'll be happier in herself.

0:30:230:30:27

-So you're lying for her own good, is that right?

-Yes!

0:30:270:30:32

But it's not like a big lie,

0:30:320:30:35

-it's a lie for our own good.

-OK, for the mutual good.

-Yeah!

0:30:350:30:42

# It's not about the money, money, money

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# We don't need your money, money, money

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# We just want to make the world dance

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# Forget about the price tag

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# Ain't about the cha-ching, cha-ching

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# Ain't about the ba-bling ba-bling

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# Want to make the world dance

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# Forget about the price tag. #

0:31:010:31:03

So, you built the toilet, did you, Aris?

0:31:070:31:09

I did, it's the first thing I've ever built, really.

0:31:090:31:12

-Did you build it on your own?

-I did. It's palatial, isn't it?

0:31:120:31:15

Well, you haven't been inside, have you? You haven't risked it.

0:31:150:31:18

No, I'm really hoping I'm not going to need it!

0:31:180:31:20

I love poo and I love compost, and Marianne loves growing things,

0:31:220:31:26

so I make the beds and the food for them and she grows stuff.

0:31:260:31:30

# Ain't about the cha-ching, cha-ching

0:31:310:31:34

# Ain't about the ba-bling, ba-bling

0:31:340:31:36

# Want to make the world dance

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# Forget about the price tag

0:31:390:31:43

# Ahhhh

0:31:430:31:45

# Ahhhh

0:31:450:31:48

# Ahhhh

0:31:480:31:51

# Ahhhh... #

0:31:510:31:52

-Aris, where are you from?

-The womb. I miss it terribly. Terribly. I try to get back.

0:31:520:31:58

Aris, don't waste time now, it's going to take a long time already!

0:31:580:32:01

I came out of the womb in California,

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and that's where I was born and raised, really.

0:32:040:32:07

COWS MOO

0:32:070:32:09

Aris and his wife, Marianne,

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live in a caravan in an eco-community in Wales with their three children.

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They've purchased a plot of land for £35,000,

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and plan to spend another 35,000 building somewhere to live.

0:32:210:32:25

-Where's the 70,000 coming from?

-My life savings.

0:32:270:32:32

How much were your life savings, Marianne?

0:32:320:32:34

-About 100,000.

-She doesn't know!

-Well, it changes!

0:32:350:32:39

Of course it changes, we keep spending it, you know!

0:32:390:32:42

Hey, look at this spider! Look at this one, look!

0:32:420:32:45

-Where did £100,000 come from?

-I've always been a saver.

0:32:450:32:49

I've always saved my money, had my piggy bank,

0:32:490:32:52

and I was always given money as a child.

0:32:520:32:54

In my family, there was, very much, this culture of the money has to come down, you know.

0:32:540:32:58

It's when you're young that you need the most. My grandmother always says when you're young,

0:32:580:33:02

you need the money, and once you're older, you're established,

0:33:020:33:05

and things are kind of up and running,

0:33:050:33:07

so I've definitely been supported financially by my family.

0:33:070:33:13

I did not have a family to give me money.

0:33:160:33:18

-My father used to borrow money.

-And you hadn't been taught how to save.

0:33:180:33:21

I had not been taught how to save, and I'm very much about experience.

0:33:210:33:24

As soon as I get enough money to go somewhere, experience something,

0:33:240:33:27

I will go somewhere and experience something.

0:33:270:33:29

Yeah, but let's not pretend I didn't have experiences, too.

0:33:290:33:31

It's not like I just sat at home, you know, fatly, on my fat cushion of money.

0:33:310:33:34

-No, no.

-No, I mean, you know.

-No, I'm not saying you did.

0:33:340:33:38

We're talking about me, now! But no one ever gave me money.

0:33:380:33:42

-OK, and we'll have courgette supper, OK?

-That's for me.

0:33:420:33:46

And do you know how much you're spending on food a week, roughly?

0:33:460:33:49

I'd probably say about £100 a week.

0:33:490:33:51

-Yeah.

-That sounds about right, but I don't actually know.

-Food's pricey!

0:33:530:33:57

Food is cheaper than it has ever been in the history of the marketplace.

0:33:570:34:00

-Food is a significant expense!

-It is!

0:34:000:34:04

People have never paid so little for food.

0:34:040:34:07

Food is a significant expense for us.

0:34:070:34:09

It is our second greatest expense.

0:34:090:34:11

It's true! It is!

0:34:110:34:13

Would you say the two of you have different attitudes to money?

0:34:180:34:21

I know what it is, but...

0:34:230:34:25

Yes, I would say we have different attitudes towards money.

0:34:250:34:28

-In what way?

-I like to have it, I like to keep track of it.

0:34:280:34:33

And, Marianne, what is Aris like with money?

0:34:330:34:36

When he's got it, he spends it.

0:34:360:34:37

When I've got it, I spend it.

0:34:410:34:42

-But when you've got it, you spend it as well.

-No, darling.

0:34:420:34:45

I've got all those savings, I didn't spend them.

0:34:450:34:47

-I guess the thing is I never have much, that's the thing, so...

-No, because you spend it.

0:34:470:34:52

-What have I bought, for example?

-I don't know, I don't know!

0:34:520:34:56

That tambourine.

0:34:560:34:57

-I did buy a tambourine!

-That was ridiculous!

0:34:570:35:00

That was when I was really into Samba drumming. It's a pandeiro, actually.

0:35:000:35:03

But I'm going to learn how to play it, one day!

0:35:070:35:10

Which of you has a healthier attitude to money, do you think?

0:35:120:35:14

I've got more.

0:35:170:35:19

That's simply stated! So I must be right!

0:35:200:35:24

Well, OK, you know, we've both been alive 38 years,

0:35:240:35:28

we've had different experiences, we've been given different amounts.

0:35:280:35:31

"I have more." How is your money separate from mine at all?

0:35:310:35:35

We've both worked, we've both lived our lives,

0:35:350:35:37

when we've reached this point, I have got more!

0:35:370:35:40

Why is it your money, and not the family's money,

0:35:410:35:45

or Aris's money, or everybody's money?

0:35:450:35:48

Good question.

0:35:480:35:49

I saved it.

0:35:500:35:51

-It was my work, saving that money!

-And well done!

0:35:530:35:57

Well done and thank you, really! Thank you. Well done.

0:35:570:36:01

# Wise men say

0:36:030:36:06

# Only fools rush in

0:36:100:36:14

# But I can't help

0:36:180:36:22

# Falling in love with you. #

0:36:230:36:29

All that I am, I give to you.

0:36:300:36:33

All that I am, I give to you.

0:36:330:36:34

And all that I have, I share with you.

0:36:340:36:37

And all that I have, I share with you.

0:36:370:36:39

For richer, for poorer.

0:36:390:36:40

For richer, for poorer.

0:36:400:36:42

In sickness, and in health.

0:36:420:36:44

In sickness, and in health.

0:36:440:36:45

To love and to cherish.

0:36:450:36:47

To love and to cherish.

0:36:470:36:49

Till death us do part.

0:36:490:36:50

Till death us do part.

0:36:500:36:53

# Falling in love with...

0:36:530:36:57

You may kiss the bride.

0:36:580:37:00

# ..You. #

0:37:000:37:02

APPLAUSE

0:37:020:37:06

Show me some of your wedding presents.

0:37:100:37:13

OK, we have our lovely, erm, coffee maker,

0:37:140:37:19

for our weekend coffee, which we relish, we had this morning, very nice.

0:37:190:37:24

Vicky, show me your favourite present.

0:37:260:37:29

Oh, my favourite present is from my uncle,

0:37:290:37:31

which is this momma, for the feeding of the 5000, and also,

0:37:330:37:38

if things get bad between us, this is my weapon of choice for hitting Jonathan over the head!

0:37:380:37:44

The toaster.

0:37:450:37:47

Oh yes, that was from one of the bridesmaids, who riffed on

0:37:470:37:51

the theme, and said that we were the best couple since sliced bread.

0:37:510:37:53

Very pleased with our, kind of, erm, clock,

0:37:550:37:59

which came with the message "We hope you have a very happy moo-riage,

0:37:590:38:03

"we are udderly delighted for you."

0:38:030:38:05

-There's just been some terrible punning!

-We've got some very droll friends.

0:38:070:38:10

-How did you pay for your honeymoon in Skegness?

-It was a wedding present.

0:38:140:38:18

-Was it? Who gave you that?

-My mum's best friend.

0:38:180:38:22

She said "Oh, I'll give you the caravan for the week."

0:38:230:38:26

I thought "All right, then! We'll take it!"

0:38:260:38:29

I'm not bothered where it is, as long as it's away from Chesterfield for a week, I'm not bothered!

0:38:290:38:34

And when we were down in Skegness we were happy, weren't we?

0:38:340:38:37

Most happiest week of our lives, because we weren't here,

0:38:370:38:41

but then on the last day, you're thinking "Oh, I've got to go back to it."

0:38:410:38:44

-What do you do most days? Are you often stuck at home?

-Yeah.

0:38:500:38:54

-And what do you do? Watch the telly?

-Yeah.

-Yeah.

0:38:540:38:58

-You watch the telly a lot?

-It's boring.

0:38:580:39:00

-You get bored?

-Yeah.

-And then you do Xbox, Matt, do you?

0:39:010:39:06

-I did, but not now. It eats electric, so...

-Does it?

0:39:060:39:10

So it was costing you too much in electricity?

0:39:100:39:13

Yeah, so I only go on it now and then, don't I? Only at night time.

0:39:130:39:18

When I'm asleep!

0:39:180:39:19

I'm already thinking now that my life sucks, and it does, because it's boring.

0:39:270:39:32

Sometimes I stay in bed until 11 or 12 o'clock, because what's the point in getting up?

0:39:340:39:39

And it's just ridiculous.

0:39:400:39:42

I have said to you, haven't I, that I'm getting sick of it?

0:39:420:39:45

All I say is "I'm sick of this life", so she thinks that I'm

0:39:450:39:48

sick of her, but it's not, it's just the situation that we're in.

0:39:480:39:52

I just hope that we'll get a job,

0:39:560:39:59

because I don't think that we can keep...

0:39:590:40:02

If we've got another five years of this, I don't we'll be together.

0:40:020:40:06

I'm hoping, as soon as she gets pregnant, I'm hoping to get a job then.

0:40:080:40:13

-What would life be like if you had a baby?

-Different.

0:40:160:40:20

Instead of us sitting about, lazing about, or not doing nothing,

0:40:200:40:25

with a kid, we'd be doing something, even if it's changing a nappy,

0:40:250:40:30

it's just breaking that horrible cycle that we're in.

0:40:300:40:32

It's just something new, something different.

0:40:320:40:34

And Nicola, how do you feel about the future?

0:40:340:40:37

You want to be a mum, but if the two of you don't get jobs,

0:40:370:40:42

do you think about that sometimes, what that will be like?

0:40:420:40:45

Sometimes.

0:40:450:40:47

And are you worried about that?

0:40:480:40:50

Yep.

0:40:530:40:54

Tell me what you think about that, when you think about the future.

0:40:550:40:58

I reckon we'll split up if we don't get a job.

0:40:580:41:00

You see each other every single day.

0:41:050:41:08

You eat, you live, you breathe, everything you do, you do together.

0:41:080:41:12

Because I see her all day, I can't wait to get away from her,

0:41:140:41:18

and I know it's horrible, but that's the way it is,

0:41:180:41:21

and I can't get away from her because we've got no money,

0:41:210:41:24

so it's either I've got to stick with it, or I leave.

0:41:240:41:28

-What do you think, Nicola?

-The same.

0:41:300:41:33

-But you'll still in love with each other at the moment.

-Yeah, at the moment.

0:41:340:41:38

-What qualifications or education do you have?

-GCSEs, and that's it.

0:42:000:42:05

-Erm, yep.

-And what about you, Dave?

0:42:080:42:10

OK, I stayed around in education for quite a while,

0:42:100:42:13

so I've got GCSEs, A-levels, I've got a Bachelor's in science, biochemistry,

0:42:130:42:19

I've got a Masters degree in structural biology,

0:42:190:42:22

and I've got a PhD, also in structural biology.

0:42:220:42:25

Natalie works in a lawyer's office, and Dave is a research scientist

0:42:280:42:32

at Manchester University doing biomedical research into arthritis.

0:42:320:42:37

Dave is the primary breadwinner, and earns £34,000 a year.

0:42:390:42:43

Dave's, kind of, really into his career,

0:42:470:42:49

and that's his pride and joy, in a kind of strange way.

0:42:490:42:53

I mean, it's not just a job to him. He is immersed in science.

0:42:530:42:58

His birthday is actually in a couple of weeks,

0:42:580:43:00

but his mum has bought him a ticket to a science conference

0:43:000:43:05

in Manchester for two days, and he goes on marches...

0:43:050:43:11

I would have done.

0:43:110:43:12

Well, you would have gone on this march recently,

0:43:120:43:14

but you have done that before, gone on marches and things like that.

0:43:140:43:18

-That was against the Iraq war.

-The war?

0:43:180:43:21

-Yeah, that's not really sciencey!

-Yeah, but it's a nerd thing to do.

0:43:210:43:25

Not really! It's an activist thing.

0:43:250:43:27

Dave's got a career, and he's worked really hard for it,

0:43:290:43:32

but, you know, his career is a means to an end, that's it,

0:43:320:43:37

that's what he's there for, the love of the job, the career.

0:43:370:43:40

-The money is incidental to that, really.

-It's quite helpful, though!

0:43:400:43:43

Yeah, it is quite helpful, but I mean, you know,

0:43:430:43:47

it is what it is, isn't it?

0:43:470:43:51

You wouldn't change career for the money.

0:43:510:43:54

-You wouldn't want to not work in science.

-No, you're right.

0:43:540:43:57

-Natalie obviously experiences a shortage of money, in this situation.

-Yes.

0:43:580:44:02

-Is there a shortage of money, from your perspective?

-Yes, absolutely. Yes.

0:44:020:44:05

-Natalie, do you think Dave should retrain?

-Yeah, I do, yeah.

0:44:060:44:09

What do you think he should retrain as?

0:44:090:44:11

I don't know, an accountant or something, or a lawyer.

0:44:110:44:13

With his qualifications, it wouldn't take very much time.

0:44:130:44:17

I've worked with lawyers for 16 years, and I know how much

0:44:170:44:19

they can earn, and let's say it's treble the amount that Dave earns now.

0:44:190:44:24

I look at the boys and think "Why should they suffer so you can enjoy your job?"

0:44:260:44:30

They don't suffer!

0:44:300:44:32

I want them to go to the private school and give them

0:44:320:44:34

the best start that I can, but how can I do that on your salary?

0:44:340:44:38

I know.

0:44:380:44:39

I'm not denying that it's a problem.

0:44:410:44:44

And I think that the family has to come first,

0:44:440:44:46

and personal occupation preferences have to be put aside.

0:44:460:44:51

If I had to go and be a toilet cleaner for the money,

0:44:510:44:54

I would go and be a toilet cleaner for the money, you know,

0:44:540:44:57

and hate every minute of it, but that's what you do,

0:44:570:45:00

that's what my mum and dad did, and that's what the vast majority of the public do,

0:45:000:45:04

it's to go and do a job they don't like for the money.

0:45:060:45:09

I think you're very lucky to have an occupation that you love.

0:45:090:45:11

OK, yeah, thanks. You've just completely shafted me, there.

0:45:130:45:17

No I haven't. Why?

0:45:170:45:19

Well, that was a... Let's not have an argument.

0:45:190:45:22

-Yes, fair enough.

-What do you disagree with in that, David?

0:45:220:45:26

What do I disagree with in that?

0:45:290:45:31

-Well, it paints me as a bit of a villain.

-Oh, don't be soft!

0:45:310:45:36

But I'm not going to deny, I enjoy the job that I do,

0:45:360:45:41

absolutely, I do.

0:45:410:45:43

To be honest, I have spent an awful lot of my life training to do

0:45:450:45:50

what I do, and I like to think I'm pretty good at it.

0:45:500:45:54

Is this an argument that the two of you have regularly?

0:45:540:45:58

-Yeah, it crops up.

-I'll say!

-From time to time.

0:45:580:46:01

No, it is, and it's one of those things about going back to

0:46:010:46:04

getting married and being together from, you know,

0:46:040:46:08

and being a family from such an early stage is that we didn't

0:46:080:46:10

-realise that about each other for a while, did we?

-No.

0:46:100:46:14

That was one of the things we discovered about our relationship, and we discovered

0:46:140:46:17

about each other, whilst we were already married and had a child.

0:46:170:46:22

What was it you didn't know? That you both had such different attitudes to money,

0:46:220:46:26

and how to spend it?

0:46:260:46:27

-Yeah.

-I guess that's fair.

-Different attitudes to money, different attitudes to life, really, in a way.

0:46:270:46:32

It's just one of those things that we either have to bear it, or split up, frankly.

0:46:340:46:38

You know, it's that, or it's the other. I can't see any way forward.

0:46:380:46:43

Dave's not going to leave his job, he's not going to leave science, you know,

0:46:430:46:46

I'm not going to stop moaning about that,

0:46:460:46:49

so you either kind of put up or shut up, and that's a decision you make.

0:46:490:46:53

Essentially, we do what's best for the boys, and the best

0:46:530:46:56

for the boys is that they have their dad around and they have their family,

0:46:560:46:59

and we just keep on digging away and doing the best we can.

0:46:590:47:01

It's not ideal, but what can you do?

0:47:010:47:04

# Let's play the blame game

0:47:160:47:20

# I love you, more

0:47:200:47:22

# Let's play the blame game

0:47:220:47:25

# For sure

0:47:250:47:27

# Let's call her names, names

0:47:270:47:30

# I hate you, more

0:47:300:47:33

# Let's call her names, names

0:47:330:47:36

# For sure. #

0:47:360:47:38

We got married in 2001.

0:47:430:47:46

-1990, dear.

-1990.

0:47:460:47:49

Otherwise we would only have been married for nine years!

0:47:490:47:51

-OK, how's your maths?

-Numbers are so difficult!

0:47:550:47:58

When you were first together, did you have plenty of money as a couple?

0:47:590:48:04

-Ish.

-Yes, 20 years ago, I think we were certainly able to do all

0:48:040:48:09

the things that one would like to spend money on,

0:48:090:48:11

go out to dinner, go away for weekends, visit friends a lot. Cinema.

0:48:110:48:16

We used to keep the place, the standard of decoration was very good.

0:48:170:48:21

Kirsty used to spend a lot of money on curtains, furniture,

0:48:210:48:26

flooring, decorating.

0:48:260:48:29

It's what you enjoy, soft furnishings.

0:48:290:48:32

I liked it, yeah, but you like soft furnishing, too!

0:48:320:48:36

We chose this wallpaper together, you put it up.

0:48:360:48:38

-I've always liked your taste.

-Oh, that's good!

0:48:380:48:41

Kirsty and Andrew have one teenage son, Toby,

0:48:420:48:46

and live in Petersfield in Hampshire.

0:48:460:48:49

Kirsty is a nurse and a lecturer in clinical skills,

0:48:500:48:54

and Andrew is a photographer.

0:48:540:48:56

He, for a long time, had a very successful photographic business,

0:48:570:49:01

and earned a lot of money, and then things changed with digital photography,

0:49:010:49:06

you can buy a picture on the Internet for 32p from China,

0:49:060:49:10

why would you spend £700 paying a studio photographer to do the same thing?

0:49:100:49:14

So then that changed, but he didn't really adapt

0:49:140:49:17

to that huge, massive fall in income.

0:49:170:49:20

We did a remortgage package, and the money arrived, we'd paid off,

0:49:220:49:28

we did quite a lot of things we were supposed to do with it,

0:49:280:49:31

paid off a couple of credit cards.

0:49:310:49:34

Quite a lot of the things did get done, but one of the major things

0:49:340:49:37

which I should have done was pay off the balance of the studio mortgage.

0:49:370:49:41

Instead of paying off the £25,000 that was owed on his studio,

0:49:430:49:48

Andrew kept the money.

0:49:480:49:50

Without telling Kirsty, he used it to pay the monthly mortgage payments

0:49:500:49:54

on the family home.

0:49:540:49:56

For over two years, he kept Kirsty in the dark about what he'd done,

0:49:560:50:00

and let her believe the debt had been paid off.

0:50:000:50:03

It was just one of those things that I thought, well, I'd rather keep this quiet.

0:50:050:50:08

Hopefully, if I just increase a little bit more work, then I'll be able to pay it off.

0:50:080:50:13

But, of course, once you start thinking that, it never happens.

0:50:130:50:16

It's a very hard thing to face,

0:50:180:50:21

particularly when you're used to having sufficient funds all the time,

0:50:210:50:26

but it comes to the point where you're seriously falling short,

0:50:260:50:30

it's something very difficult to face up to.

0:50:300:50:32

-And difficult to tell your wife.

-Very difficult to tell your wife.

0:50:320:50:36

And what was Kirsty's reaction when she found out?

0:50:400:50:43

She was very upset, furious, really,

0:50:470:50:51

that I'd kept it so quiet and been so untruthful about it.

0:50:510:50:57

When you were in your darkest moment, Kirsty,

0:51:020:51:04

when you found out that Andrew had been lying to you

0:51:040:51:08

for two years or more, did you ever think of leaving?

0:51:080:51:13

Yeah. Definitely.

0:51:130:51:15

I was so angry and so irritated and so mortified,

0:51:170:51:22

and I felt so stupid and humiliated, and I thought I'll never believe him again.

0:51:220:51:29

-And do you believe him now? Sometimes.

-Not always.

0:51:290:51:34

When I'm looking over his shoulder at his account, and the balance is up on the screen, I believe him.

0:51:340:51:40

If he says he hasn't got any money, I know he's lying,

0:51:430:51:46

so I just look over his shoulder at the online balance,

0:51:460:51:50

and then I know what the truth of the story is.

0:51:500:51:54

I always want to be in a position where I can provide, that I can provide well.

0:51:540:51:59

It's very embarrassing to find that you are short,

0:51:590:52:03

and it's one thing that I really do not want to admit,

0:52:030:52:07

so, therefore, I've been flexible with the truth about it.

0:52:070:52:10

There are a lot of things I don't find embarrassing at all.

0:52:160:52:18

I've never found any kind of musical performance difficult,

0:52:180:52:23

or speaking in front of people, a lot of things that people would find very difficult,

0:52:230:52:28

but dealing with money, I think, is extremely difficult.

0:52:280:52:31

Are you a bit of a child around money, Andrew?

0:52:340:52:36

I think I must have been, yes. I'm just not good with it.

0:52:360:52:41

-Why are you like that?

-I think I'm improving.

0:52:410:52:45

-No, that wasn't the question. Why are you like that?

-I don't know why I'm like that.

0:52:450:52:50

I think it's probably because it's not one of my skills, really.

0:52:500:52:56

I don't think I'd ever be good with money.

0:52:560:52:58

# Hold me in your arms

0:53:040:53:11

# May they keep me

0:53:120:53:16

# Singing

0:53:160:53:18

# A lullaby

0:53:200:53:24

# Cos I'm sleepy

0:53:240:53:27

# I'm scared you don't need me any more. #

0:53:290:53:34

She won't run off. She knows exactly where she's getting her next meal from, and that's from me.

0:53:340:53:39

# Bring me

0:53:390:53:42

# To the light of the morning. #

0:53:430:53:48

-Hello!

-Why the silly voice?

0:53:510:53:53

-Slightly silly mood.

-That's not good.

0:53:530:53:57

-How long have you two been married now?

-22 days.

-Yeah.

0:54:000:54:05

Have you had a discussion about your finances since you were married?

0:54:050:54:10

Yeah. I mean, we've talked about

0:54:100:54:15

what luxuries we can and can't afford.

0:54:150:54:18

When you go to work, sometimes it's nice to have a Diet Coke,

0:54:180:54:21

or whatever, at work, and whether or not you should buy them

0:54:210:54:25

at the supermarket, because obviously they're cheaper

0:54:250:54:28

if you buy them in bulk, than buying from a vending machine.

0:54:280:54:30

We thought we'd hold off buying them at the supermarket to see how

0:54:300:54:34

much we actually end up drinking at work,

0:54:340:54:36

and whether or not we save money in the long run if we bought,

0:54:360:54:40

you know, four or eight a week, or whatever.

0:54:400:54:43

We were worried that what we'd end up doing is drinking more,

0:54:430:54:45

and it's just little things like that, where it doesn't feel like a great deal of money,

0:54:450:54:48

but if you work out that you have one bottle a day, a pound a day during the working week,

0:54:480:54:52

then you're spending 250 quid on Coke, which isn't insignificant.

0:54:520:54:57

You think everything through to an incredible extent. Is that something you have in common?

0:54:570:55:01

Yeah, I think we are, like, quite strategic planners.

0:55:010:55:06

-I was thinking we could do something with the prawns that are left over.

-Yep.

0:55:080:55:13

If we haven't got enough spag bol, we could do a tiny starter, or something.

0:55:130:55:19

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

0:55:190:55:22

Have you had an argument yet?

0:55:220:55:24

I really don't think we did.

0:55:260:55:28

Don't know.

0:55:310:55:32

There was a moment of, like, stern talking to in the Maldives, on honeymoon,

0:55:340:55:38

when we ran very low on loo roll,

0:55:380:55:41

because Vicky had a cold, and I had a slightly dodgy tummy.

0:55:410:55:45

Too much information, just oversharing!

0:55:450:55:48

We started to run low, and I was just like, just, you know, but anyway, that was...

0:55:480:55:53

It was you that got cross, Jonathan, was it?

0:55:530:55:56

I felt my need for loo roll was greater!

0:55:560:55:58

And that's been the only cause of disagreement?

0:55:590:56:03

Yeah.

0:56:040:56:05

-Andrew, are you happily married?

-I think we have a bit of a laugh, yes.

0:56:080:56:13

-Are you happily married, Kirsty?

-Yes.

0:56:150:56:18

When he's not there, I miss him for somebody to go to the pub with,

0:56:180:56:22

or say "What shall we buy for lunch?" or "Can you go and fill my car up with petrol?"

0:56:220:56:26

or, you know, "Let's watch a film. What do you want to watch on telly?"

0:56:260:56:32

So it's having a companion, somebody to talk to that is easy to do

0:56:320:56:36

because you've done it for a number of years, I suppose.

0:56:360:56:39

Is that right?

0:56:420:56:44

Yes, and hopefully there's a certain degree of entertainment.

0:56:440:56:46

-What, you're funny?

-Yeah, I hope so!

0:56:460:56:49

Yes, yes, but you're funny as well, sometimes.

0:56:520:56:55

Sometimes you're irritating, but that's normal,

0:56:550:56:57

but you find me really irritating, as well.

0:56:570:57:00

Do you just tolerate the arguments about money, now?

0:57:060:57:09

-Do you just accept that they are just part of your relationship?

-Yeah.

0:57:090:57:12

I think you accept that that it's probably not going to...

0:57:120:57:15

Nick won't shift on his, and I, probably, too late.

0:57:150:57:19

It's really going to be difficult for me to move on my attitudes about it.

0:57:210:57:25

Well, what we've found is that it's probably best we don't talk about

0:57:250:57:28

it, because we don't really tend to see it in quite the same light.

0:57:280:57:32

I think the bottom line is, all right, you have your arguments,

0:57:320:57:36

and on a practical level, you stumble over the problems,

0:57:360:57:40

but we want to stay together, and we want to make it work and we want to grow old together,

0:57:400:57:45

and I think that's the bottom line.

0:57:450:57:48

# Some things are meant to be

0:57:480:57:52

# Take my hand

0:57:540:57:59

# Take my whole life too

0:58:000:58:04

# For I can't help

0:58:080:58:12

# Falling in love with you. #

0:58:140:58:19

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0:58:360:58:39

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0:58:390:58:42

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