Do it Yourself: The Story of Rough Trade

0:00:02 > 0:00:05This programme contains some strong language.

0:00:10 > 0:00:16# When I get to Warwick Avenue

0:00:16 > 0:00:21# Meet me by the entrance of the tube

0:00:21 > 0:00:26# We can talk things over little time... #

0:00:26 > 0:00:31In March 2008, Duffy topped the UK singles and album charts.

0:00:31 > 0:00:36Behind her success lies a management team with a 30-year history,

0:00:36 > 0:00:39and a legendary status in the music business.

0:00:44 > 0:00:47We are saying the market place is a force of creation

0:00:47 > 0:00:48and has very little to do

0:00:48 > 0:00:52with the reality of what people might want, given the options.

0:00:52 > 0:00:57Rough Trade began life as a small but hip record shop.

0:00:57 > 0:00:58From humble beginnings

0:00:58 > 0:01:02it grew to drive and define a revolution in independent music,

0:01:02 > 0:01:06as a bunch of radical idealists and maverick musicians

0:01:06 > 0:01:11turned the record industry on its head.

0:01:11 > 0:01:14If you were DIY, Rough Trade for the perfect label for you.

0:01:16 > 0:01:18Single handedly, really, Rough Trade

0:01:18 > 0:01:22gave me back some kind of faith in the music industry because up

0:01:22 > 0:01:26to then I just thought, it's a bunch of (BLEEP) crooks.

0:01:26 > 0:01:33But at the height of its success, Rough Trade went spectacularly bust.

0:01:33 > 0:01:37It was a very black time and very hard time and I feel grateful

0:01:37 > 0:01:39to have still be here today, really.

0:01:41 > 0:01:45Rough Trade fought its way back, and after three decades of

0:01:45 > 0:01:48defiant independence finally made it to number one.

0:01:48 > 0:01:53# Baby, you hurt me... #

0:02:08 > 0:02:13The Rough Trade story began more than 30 years ago.

0:02:13 > 0:02:1720th February, 1976.

0:02:17 > 0:02:18NEWSREEL: 'Then the second bomb

0:02:18 > 0:02:21'in a furniture shop gutted the four-storey building.'

0:02:21 > 0:02:24Britain was in the grip of an IRA bombing campaign.

0:02:24 > 0:02:29Labour has gone on spending our earnings and spending our savings...

0:02:29 > 0:02:33A future prime minister was beginning to make her mark on Middle England,

0:02:33 > 0:02:36where punk was yet to run amok,

0:02:36 > 0:02:41and a young Cambridge graduate called Geoff Travis opened a new shop

0:02:41 > 0:02:45at 202 Kensington Park Road, just off Ladbroke Grove in West London.

0:02:52 > 0:02:55I have always bought records all my life, and, you know, I love music.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58And I was in the States for quite a long time.

0:02:58 > 0:03:00When I came back to London,

0:03:00 > 0:03:02I didn't feel like there was anywhere I wanted

0:03:02 > 0:03:05to so I thought, well, I'll have to start somewhere.

0:03:08 > 0:03:10After I finished university,

0:03:10 > 0:03:12I went to visit an old girlfriend in Canada.

0:03:12 > 0:03:15We hitchhiked together from Chicago to San Francisco

0:03:15 > 0:03:19and I bought lots of second-hand records from Salvation Army stores

0:03:19 > 0:03:2125 cents, a dollar, and a friend said,

0:03:21 > 0:03:24"What you going to do with all those records?

0:03:24 > 0:03:28"Why don't you ship them back to London and start a record store?"

0:03:32 > 0:03:35Geoff Travis named his shop Rough Trade,

0:03:35 > 0:03:38partly after an obscure Canadian band,

0:03:38 > 0:03:39partly after a trashy novel,

0:03:39 > 0:03:42and began to offer his friends and customers, like minded,

0:03:42 > 0:03:48left wing music lovers such as Steve Montgomery, the chance to work there.

0:03:48 > 0:03:50It was fun. You could listen to music all day.

0:03:50 > 0:03:55We had a policy, if you wanted to hear a record, we'd play it for you.

0:04:05 > 0:04:08Rough Trade sold obscure and challenging records by bands

0:04:08 > 0:04:11such as American art rockers Pere Ubu.

0:04:11 > 0:04:17Its music policy and its communal vibe set it apart from conventional,

0:04:17 > 0:04:19commercial record shops

0:04:19 > 0:04:23and the middle of the road rock music that dominated the music business.

0:04:23 > 0:04:27I started the shop on the basis that a record shop could be something

0:04:27 > 0:04:30a lot more than just a place where bought records,

0:04:30 > 0:04:32as though you were going into a chemist.

0:04:32 > 0:04:35We were very enamoured by the idea of City Lights bookshop

0:04:35 > 0:04:38in San Francisco, where you could sit in the basement of the shop

0:04:38 > 0:04:42and drink coffee and read poetry and you wouldn't be chucked out.

0:04:42 > 0:04:46It was about an environment where you could just listen to music.

0:04:48 > 0:04:51It wasn't a faceless, mindless organisation

0:04:51 > 0:04:55attempting to exploit the general public for as much money

0:04:55 > 0:04:57from their pockets as you could get.

0:04:58 > 0:05:01We were all pretty naive, all pretty innocent,

0:05:01 > 0:05:03but we figured we could change the world.

0:05:12 > 0:05:16West London's new music store had a clear alternative agenda.

0:05:16 > 0:05:20And when punk rock exploded in the summer of '76, just a few months

0:05:20 > 0:05:24after the shop's opening right on the doorstep of local heroes The Clash,

0:05:24 > 0:05:26it became a natural headquarters

0:05:26 > 0:05:30for punk's revolt against mainstream music.

0:05:36 > 0:05:38When they released the Clash album,

0:05:38 > 0:05:41it was an incredible number of albums we moved in one day.

0:05:41 > 0:05:44It was either a thousand or a couple of thousand.

0:05:44 > 0:05:48The record companies all wanted to give us accounts

0:05:48 > 0:05:51because they saw the power that we wielded

0:05:51 > 0:05:54although we didn't look at it as power.

0:05:54 > 0:05:59We just looked at it as, we're making this material accessible.

0:05:59 > 0:06:03But the shop didn't stop at selling punk records.

0:06:03 > 0:06:09From mid-1976 on they carried the first issues of Punk magazine

0:06:09 > 0:06:12from New York and Rough Trade was very important

0:06:12 > 0:06:14in that it started to carry English fanzines

0:06:14 > 0:06:17Mark Perry's Sniffing Glue, Sandy Robertson's White Stuff,

0:06:17 > 0:06:20Tony Dee's Ripped And Torn, and they carried my fanzine,

0:06:20 > 0:06:22which was called London's Outrage.

0:06:25 > 0:06:27Punk's home-made fanzines were the first products of

0:06:27 > 0:06:31a do it yourself attitude that would become key to Rough Trade's identity.

0:06:33 > 0:06:36But the shop's location, just off Ladbroke Grove,

0:06:36 > 0:06:39made it more than just a punk rock ghetto.

0:06:46 > 0:06:48I knew Ladbroke Grove because of spending time

0:06:48 > 0:06:50at Vivienne Goldman's flat

0:06:50 > 0:06:53at 145a Ladbroke Grove, above the betting shop, next to the chip shop.

0:06:53 > 0:06:57The area where the first Rough Trade store was is now a full

0:06:57 > 0:06:58of boutiques and restaurants.

0:06:58 > 0:07:00Back then it was rough.

0:07:02 > 0:07:04It has always been a bohemian area of London.

0:07:04 > 0:07:06It's had its history of the riots.

0:07:06 > 0:07:09It has its history of its Rachmanite landlords.

0:07:09 > 0:07:12It has a huge West Indian community and it's just been a place

0:07:12 > 0:07:14where it has been cheap to live.

0:07:14 > 0:07:17And where a place is cheap to live, you find musicians.

0:07:17 > 0:07:19So, that was the right place for us to be, really.

0:07:19 > 0:07:21We weren't trying to have an upmarket shop.

0:07:21 > 0:07:23We just wanted to feel comfortable.

0:07:25 > 0:07:27It was full of squats!

0:07:27 > 0:07:29And it full of music,

0:07:29 > 0:07:34starting from the hippie era, with Hawkwind and the Pink Fairies,

0:07:34 > 0:07:36and then, of course, with the Caribbean community.

0:07:36 > 0:07:39The Rastas were all coming to Rough Trade,

0:07:39 > 0:07:42partly because of its location on the carnival route!

0:07:42 > 0:07:45So, in the very heart of the West Indian community.

0:07:45 > 0:07:49In keeping with its location, Rough Trade deliberately forged

0:07:49 > 0:07:53what seemed an unlikely alliance between punk and reggae.

0:07:53 > 0:07:57I came into Rough Trade as an outsider.

0:07:57 > 0:07:59To me, punk music was just spitting

0:07:59 > 0:08:01and vomiting and people looking funny.

0:08:01 > 0:08:05How do they say in football terms? I was tapped up!

0:08:05 > 0:08:06I was tapped up!

0:08:06 > 0:08:11I was working for a company driving around in my little Escort van.

0:08:11 > 0:08:15We are coming down to Ladbroke Grove station.

0:08:15 > 0:08:16It's on the right hand side.

0:08:16 > 0:08:18So, I went to Rough Trade, sold them some...

0:08:18 > 0:08:20I can't remember what it was.

0:08:20 > 0:08:26If it was a Lee Perry album or if it was a Culture album.

0:08:26 > 0:08:28I went back and they said, can I have 50 of that!

0:08:28 > 0:08:30Come on, darling.

0:08:30 > 0:08:31The last thing you want

0:08:31 > 0:08:33when you open a shop in a community is a tourist.

0:08:33 > 0:08:36It was very important we sold Jamaican music.

0:08:38 > 0:08:40They kept saying to you, come and work for us!

0:08:40 > 0:08:44And I thought, well, no. I don't want to work for punks, you know?

0:08:44 > 0:08:46And then, when I went to work there,

0:08:46 > 0:08:49it was like, "Oh, you're in charge of reggae!"

0:08:52 > 0:08:56The bohemian lifestyle and political activism of Ladbroke Grove,

0:08:56 > 0:09:00reggae's independent record scene and punk's rebellious

0:09:00 > 0:09:05do it yourself attitude, gave Rough Trade a unique spirit.

0:09:06 > 0:09:08In January 1977,

0:09:08 > 0:09:13when a record by Manchester punk ban Buzzcocks appeared in the shop,

0:09:15 > 0:09:18Rough Trade found itself in the right place at the right time

0:09:18 > 0:09:22to make an impact far beyond that of a neighbourhood music store.

0:09:22 > 0:09:24# If I seem a little jittery

0:09:24 > 0:09:25# I can't restrain myself

0:09:25 > 0:09:29# I'm falling into fancy fragments Can't contain myself... #

0:09:29 > 0:09:34That was my first encounter with Rough Trade.

0:09:34 > 0:09:37We pressed a thousand copies of the seven inch

0:09:37 > 0:09:38called Spiral Scratch.

0:09:38 > 0:09:42Someone rang up, "Can we have a couple of hundred?"

0:09:48 > 0:09:51What Spiral Scratch did is that it showed that you can make

0:09:51 > 0:09:55a great record, fund it yourself, put it out on your own label,

0:09:55 > 0:09:58and you could sell 15,000 copies. Bang! Go!

0:10:03 > 0:10:06When Spiral Scratch was released in 1977,

0:10:06 > 0:10:09the idea of putting out a single without the support

0:10:09 > 0:10:12of an established record company was incredible.

0:10:18 > 0:10:20A handful of major record companies

0:10:20 > 0:10:23controlled most of the power in the music industry.

0:10:23 > 0:10:29Rough Trade was to become the headquarters of a revolt against

0:10:29 > 0:10:33this corporate monopoly by stocking records by bands inspired by the idea

0:10:33 > 0:10:35that they could do it themselves.

0:10:35 > 0:10:38Bands like The Desperate Bicycles.

0:10:38 > 0:10:42Well, we made a record independently, basically

0:10:42 > 0:10:44to show that anybody could go ahead and make a record.

0:10:44 > 0:10:48You didn't need the backing of a large record company.

0:10:57 > 0:11:00Eager to empower others, The Desperate Bicycles

0:11:00 > 0:11:03turned their record sleeves into instruction manuals.

0:11:10 > 0:11:14The Desperate Bicycles were really the first to demystify a process

0:11:14 > 0:11:16by giving the information on the record sleeve

0:11:16 > 0:11:19and then a lot of other people followed.

0:11:19 > 0:11:21And when The Desperate Bicycles did it,

0:11:21 > 0:11:25and when I found their record at Rough Trade, it was like, jeez!

0:11:25 > 0:11:26This is it!

0:11:26 > 0:11:32Who knew that you could actually ring up a pressing plant yourself

0:11:32 > 0:11:35and say, "I want to press some records?"

0:11:35 > 0:11:39I had grown up imagining that mere mortals couldn't do that.

0:11:40 > 0:11:44Inspired by this home-made revolution, Scritti Politti,

0:11:44 > 0:11:48a band of communist intellectuals, were the next punk DIYers

0:11:48 > 0:11:50through the Rough Trade door.

0:11:52 > 0:11:58I went in with our own, song in '78, which was called Skank Bloc Bologna.

0:11:58 > 0:12:02That was on our own St Pancreas records, named after

0:12:02 > 0:12:05the Young Communist Branch of the Young Communist League.

0:12:06 > 0:12:08We had a meeting in the back office with Geoff,

0:12:08 > 0:12:11and then he said, "Oh, let's go and play it in the shop."

0:12:11 > 0:12:15We played the demos in the shops while people were flicking through.

0:12:15 > 0:12:20And he is kind of doing his Geoff thing...

0:12:20 > 0:12:22"Um hum, um hum."

0:12:22 > 0:12:24And then he said, "We'll distribute it."

0:12:27 > 0:12:30Scritti Politti took the Desperate Bicycles' cover design

0:12:30 > 0:12:33one step further by printing the production

0:12:33 > 0:12:36budget on the record sleeve, which was, of course,

0:12:36 > 0:12:39made out of paper and assembled at home.

0:12:40 > 0:12:44So, recording, £98. Blimey!

0:12:44 > 0:12:47You had the up to date information, so you'd bang that information

0:12:47 > 0:12:48on the back of the sleeve.

0:12:48 > 0:12:51The main cost was the pressing.

0:12:51 > 0:12:552,500 copies at 13p, done in Surrey.

0:12:55 > 0:12:58Mastering 40 quid. Labels £8.

0:12:58 > 0:13:02So, whoever picked that record up could then go ahead and do it.

0:13:02 > 0:13:04We just stamped these on the kitchen table.

0:13:04 > 0:13:08And that was absolutely essentially important to the whole business of

0:13:08 > 0:13:11bothering to make music and being in a band, as far as we were concerned.

0:13:11 > 0:13:16That way, the record business would change

0:13:16 > 0:13:19because everyone would just be able to do it themselves.

0:13:19 > 0:13:23Activists like Scritti Politti, and their friends at Rough Trade,

0:13:23 > 0:13:25were the intellectual, political wing of punk.

0:13:25 > 0:13:30Anti-capitalist, democratic and determined to break

0:13:30 > 0:13:33the stranglehold of the major labels.

0:13:34 > 0:13:39We were Marxists, so major record labels, given what they represented

0:13:39 > 0:13:43at the time, would have just been the enemy.

0:13:50 > 0:13:54This is our first single was recorded in a rehearsal studio

0:13:54 > 0:13:58on this cassette recorder on a built-in condenser microphone.

0:13:58 > 0:14:04And our second single was recorded on a borrowed reel-to-reel recorder

0:14:04 > 0:14:05at home in our front room.

0:14:07 > 0:14:10Now anybody could make a record.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14And Geoff Travis had assembled a staff of like-minded music lovers,

0:14:14 > 0:14:16including local artist Shirley O'Loughlin

0:14:16 > 0:14:23and avant-garde Texan musician Mayo Thompson who might sell it for them.

0:14:23 > 0:14:27I would go through 20 tapes a day, 50 tapes a day.

0:14:27 > 0:14:30People writing in, sending in tapes,

0:14:30 > 0:14:32wanting to be part of it.

0:14:32 > 0:14:35Wanting to make their own world happen in some way.

0:14:35 > 0:14:39One review in NME, and one play on Radio 1.

0:14:39 > 0:14:44The mission was not Rough Trades all over the UK, or all over the world.

0:14:44 > 0:14:49The mission was "Here you are, you can do it."

0:14:49 > 0:14:52We pressed 1,000 records which cost about £300,

0:14:52 > 0:14:56of which we sold about 350, so we lost about £150.

0:14:56 > 0:15:01We'd almost always take people's records, even if it was only a box.

0:15:01 > 0:15:03If it was a phenomenal we'd take a lot more.

0:15:03 > 0:15:05It was definitely worth doing.

0:15:05 > 0:15:08< Can you say that again with more enthusiasm?

0:15:08 > 0:15:11It was definitely worth doing.

0:15:11 > 0:15:14But selling a few independent records over the counter

0:15:14 > 0:15:16was not going to change the world.

0:15:16 > 0:15:21In the '70s record distribution was entirely controlled

0:15:21 > 0:15:23by major companies.

0:15:23 > 0:15:27Even early independent labels like Virgin and Island had no alternative

0:15:27 > 0:15:33but to hand over their distribution to the likes of EMI or CBS.

0:15:34 > 0:15:39But one man at Rough Trade was about to challenge this monopoly.

0:15:39 > 0:15:43We started to get five, 10, 20 letters a day's saying,

0:15:43 > 0:15:45"Can we buy this cos we can't buy it at a local shop?"

0:15:45 > 0:15:48So it made sense to start

0:15:48 > 0:15:50up a mail order. And when the mail order

0:15:50 > 0:15:54had been going a few months shops were writing in and saying,

0:15:54 > 0:15:58"I can't get records from normal wholesalers,

0:15:58 > 0:16:01"can I buy any excess stock you have?"

0:16:01 > 0:16:06It was like there was a huge vacuum and we were sucked into that.

0:16:06 > 0:16:11Richard Scott joined Rough Trade in 1977 after managing

0:16:11 > 0:16:13reggae band Third World.

0:16:13 > 0:16:15He began by offering mail-order accounts

0:16:15 > 0:16:19to other independent shops around the country.

0:16:19 > 0:16:22Richard would go on to develop a much grander scheme that was

0:16:22 > 0:16:28nothing short of revolutionary - independent nationwide distribution.

0:16:34 > 0:16:39One day I was trying to put together some orders for some shops.

0:16:39 > 0:16:41It was completely hopeless.

0:16:43 > 0:16:46At one of the shops that I'd been supplying was a shop in York.

0:16:46 > 0:16:50I phoned up Tony Kaye at Red Rhino and said

0:16:50 > 0:16:55could he sell to shops in the North-East if I sent him the stock?

0:16:55 > 0:16:59He said yes. We then quickly picked up other people in other

0:16:59 > 0:17:04regions like Probe in Liverpool, Backs in Norwich, Fast in Edinburgh.

0:17:04 > 0:17:06A shop called Revolver in Bristol.

0:17:06 > 0:17:10It all came down to having control over what you're doing.

0:17:10 > 0:17:13Being independent.

0:17:13 > 0:17:19Not being subservient to a large multinational corporation.

0:17:19 > 0:17:23We're saying the market place is a false creation and has very little

0:17:23 > 0:17:26to do with the reality of what people might want given the options.

0:17:26 > 0:17:30We wanted to have a distribution network where the decisions about

0:17:30 > 0:17:31who went into that network

0:17:31 > 0:17:34was controlled about ourselves and no one else.

0:17:34 > 0:17:38It was born of frustration of mainstream culture being,

0:17:38 > 0:17:42to our mind, boring and excluding interesting things.

0:17:42 > 0:17:46You had the idea that ordinary people would like it.

0:17:46 > 0:17:49At least they should have a chance to make up their own minds.

0:17:52 > 0:17:56Rough Trade had begun to open up a commercially viable market

0:17:56 > 0:18:00for music overlooked or dismissed by major labels.

0:18:00 > 0:18:05The shop could now offer experimental musicians like Daniel Miller

0:18:05 > 0:18:09the chance to sell records nationwide.

0:18:09 > 0:18:13I'd been a huge fan off Krautrock and electronic music.

0:18:15 > 0:18:20I loved Kraftwerk and I loved punk.

0:18:20 > 0:18:24I'd been a frustrated musician all my life because I had music ideas

0:18:24 > 0:18:26but could never really play.

0:18:26 > 0:18:30I thought I'm going to try and get a synthesiser and made a punk record.

0:18:33 > 0:18:37I can visualise it very clearly.

0:18:37 > 0:18:40I went in the front door and thought, god, this place...

0:18:40 > 0:18:43I didn't think of myself as being very cool and this place was

0:18:43 > 0:18:47full of cool dudes and going to be very judgmental and everything.

0:18:47 > 0:18:50I went to the back of the store and there was Geoff and Richard,

0:18:50 > 0:18:52they were dealing with a customer.

0:18:52 > 0:18:54They said, "Hang on a second."

0:18:54 > 0:18:56I was looking round and taking it all in.

0:18:56 > 0:18:57It was really exciting.

0:18:57 > 0:19:01All these boxes of records with names of bands that I liked.

0:19:01 > 0:19:04Then we went back into the shop to have listen of the record.

0:19:04 > 0:19:09This was a public airing of my first single, I was very freaked out.

0:19:09 > 0:19:11As you can imagine, very nervous.

0:19:11 > 0:19:12'TVOD. TVOD.'

0:19:12 > 0:19:16They said, "How many do you want press?"

0:19:16 > 0:19:19I said, "I'm going to press 500 and hope for the best."

0:19:19 > 0:19:23They said, "Well, I think you should do 2,000,

0:19:23 > 0:19:26"we'd like to distribute it." I said, "OK, fine."

0:19:26 > 0:19:28That was it really. It was as simple as that.

0:19:28 > 0:19:31'I don't need a TV screen.'

0:19:31 > 0:19:35'I just stick the aerial into my skin

0:19:35 > 0:19:39'and let the signal run through my veins...'

0:19:39 > 0:19:41TVOD. And warm leatherette.

0:19:41 > 0:19:44Two of the most important tracks of the era.

0:19:44 > 0:19:47He went away, pressed a record up and started his own record label.

0:19:47 > 0:19:49Mute Records.

0:19:52 > 0:19:56Daniel Miller set up Mute Records in 1978.

0:19:56 > 0:19:59It would become one of the most important and successful

0:19:59 > 0:20:01independent companies in Britain,

0:20:01 > 0:20:06selling millions of records by bands like Depeche Mode and Yazoo.

0:20:07 > 0:20:10It was just one of many independent labels

0:20:10 > 0:20:13using the Rough Trade distribution network.

0:20:13 > 0:20:18There'd be Dick Odell coming in who was managing The Slits

0:20:18 > 0:20:20and Pop Group and had Wire records.

0:20:20 > 0:20:24There were people coming down from Postcard records.

0:20:24 > 0:20:29Tony Wilson would come in at least once a month to talk about Factory,

0:20:29 > 0:20:32because we were manufacturing and distributing their label.

0:20:32 > 0:20:36Just like... People just coming in all the time.

0:20:36 > 0:20:40Independent labels were beginning to make a significant impact on

0:20:40 > 0:20:44the major companies' control of the music market.

0:20:44 > 0:20:47And so it seemed almost inevitable

0:20:47 > 0:20:51that when a bunch of French punks wandered into the shop in 1978,

0:20:51 > 0:20:56Rough Trade was prompted to become a record label in its own right.

0:20:56 > 0:21:00We'd been distributing a record by this French group Metal Urbain.

0:21:00 > 0:21:04I was behind the counter and they gave me a cassette

0:21:04 > 0:21:08and they said, "We don't know what to do with it, can you help us?"

0:21:08 > 0:21:11That was the eureka moment where I thought, well,

0:21:11 > 0:21:14we could press this up and put it out ourselves.

0:21:15 > 0:21:19The Rough Trade label was born, and by the end of the year

0:21:19 > 0:21:25it had released a dozen singles by an eclectic mix of post-punk artists

0:21:25 > 0:21:28who found the label's attitude towards record contracts

0:21:28 > 0:21:30typically subversive.

0:21:35 > 0:21:39Music industry orthodoxy dictated that record companies

0:21:39 > 0:21:42offer new artists a cash advance, contractually binding them

0:21:42 > 0:21:43for a number of albums,

0:21:43 > 0:21:47for which they would receive a modest percentage of any sales profit.

0:21:47 > 0:21:52It was a notoriously exploitative arrangement.

0:21:52 > 0:21:55Rough Trade had a much simpler deal.

0:21:57 > 0:21:59"Clause 1.

0:21:59 > 0:22:01"Rough Trade and dot, dot, dot, dot

0:22:03 > 0:22:08"agree to make records and sell them until either or both

0:22:08 > 0:22:13"of the parties reasonably disagree with the arrangement. Clause two.

0:22:13 > 0:22:17"We agree that once agreed recording, manufacturing

0:22:17 > 0:22:18"and promotional costs

0:22:18 > 0:22:23"have been deducted we will share the ensuing profit equally."

0:22:27 > 0:22:30We knew that if we'd gone with a major one

0:22:30 > 0:22:33it was a lot more complex negotiations.

0:22:33 > 0:22:37For us it was like, yeah, that makes sense.

0:22:37 > 0:22:40Costs get taken out, 50/50. It's all good.

0:22:44 > 0:22:46The way the music business approaches

0:22:46 > 0:22:49the problem of dealing with someone that's making music

0:22:49 > 0:22:52is, I think, delineated by the fact that they're going

0:22:52 > 0:22:53to make some money out of this.

0:22:53 > 0:22:58They are pushing to seeing it as a commodity that they have to sell.

0:22:58 > 0:23:01We are very opposed to seeing any of the people that we deal with,

0:23:01 > 0:23:04any of the music that we sell simply as a commodity.

0:23:05 > 0:23:11You could say that really in business terms we were very naive.

0:23:11 > 0:23:13Had we been interested in building an empire

0:23:13 > 0:23:15we would have behaved very differently.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18We would have signed artists a long-term deal.

0:23:18 > 0:23:22We would have made sure we had the copyrights for that copyright.

0:23:22 > 0:23:25We would have made sure that we had a publishing company.

0:23:25 > 0:23:26We never did any of those things.

0:23:26 > 0:23:30We weren't interested in building an empire.

0:23:30 > 0:23:32We weren't trying to follow the capitalist model

0:23:32 > 0:23:34of how do you accumulate wealth.

0:23:34 > 0:23:36We weren't trying to be Virgin Records.

0:23:38 > 0:23:42Rough Trade's ethic was directly opposed to the conventions

0:23:42 > 0:23:43of the music industry.

0:23:43 > 0:23:47Here was a business collective that put principles before profit,

0:23:47 > 0:23:51run by a bunch of enthusiasts who wore their politics proudly.

0:23:51 > 0:23:55Politics was very special to us.

0:23:55 > 0:23:57At the very early stage

0:23:57 > 0:24:02it was decided that it was going to be an equal paying,

0:24:02 > 0:24:04non-management structure.

0:24:04 > 0:24:07Rough Trade was kind of based upon the principles of

0:24:07 > 0:24:09a kind of beat culture,

0:24:09 > 0:24:11kibbutz collective.

0:24:11 > 0:24:13Everyone was paid the same.

0:24:13 > 0:24:16We had an environment where there was an equality of the sexes

0:24:16 > 0:24:20and you felt you were participating in culture and building something.

0:24:20 > 0:24:23You were just living in the present.

0:24:23 > 0:24:27For a brief moment in time

0:24:27 > 0:24:32we encapsulated everything that was right about the human race.

0:24:35 > 0:24:38I don't know how many of you out there are thinking

0:24:38 > 0:24:40of joining pop groups.

0:24:41 > 0:24:46And when Rough Trade signed this bunch of Belfast punks in 1978,

0:24:46 > 0:24:49they became not just an alternative ideological force,

0:24:49 > 0:24:53but genuine competitors in the commercial music world.

0:24:55 > 0:24:57# Take a look where you're living

0:24:57 > 0:24:59# You got Army on the street

0:24:59 > 0:25:01# And the RUC dog of repression

0:25:01 > 0:25:03# Is barking at your feet

0:25:03 > 0:25:06# Is this the kind of place you wanna live?

0:25:06 > 0:25:08# Is this where you wanna be?

0:25:08 > 0:25:12# Is this the only life we're gonna have?

0:25:12 > 0:25:14# What we need... #

0:25:14 > 0:25:18We started off, recorded our own first single.

0:25:18 > 0:25:22I got in touch with Rough Trade and they started to sell copies

0:25:22 > 0:25:24of that single for us.

0:25:24 > 0:25:26When it came to the second single they asked us could

0:25:26 > 0:25:30they pay the costs and so forth and go into it in a joint venture.

0:25:30 > 0:25:33At the moment we are considering just continuing that way

0:25:33 > 0:25:35cos it's on a straight 50/50 partnership.

0:25:38 > 0:25:40Goodnight!

0:25:40 > 0:25:44Signing Stiff Little Fingers was a major coup for Rough Trade.

0:25:44 > 0:25:48Most successful punk bands, despite their anti-establishment roots,

0:25:48 > 0:25:51were signed to major record companies.

0:25:51 > 0:25:55The Sex Pistols signed to EMI, famously ended up on Virgin.

0:25:55 > 0:25:59The Clash signed to CBS. They were the two leaders really.

0:25:59 > 0:26:01If we signed for CBS tomorrow

0:26:01 > 0:26:05all the kids on the street would say what a sell-out.

0:26:05 > 0:26:10And the chances are very good our share of record sales would be

0:26:10 > 0:26:13at most a half of what we are making at the moment.

0:26:13 > 0:26:17In February 1979 Rough Trade and Stiff Little Fingers'

0:26:17 > 0:26:19first album was released.

0:26:19 > 0:26:23It went to number 14 in the charts, becoming the first independent album

0:26:23 > 0:26:28in British music history to sell over 100,000 copies.

0:26:30 > 0:26:33The day we made that record available I looked out the window

0:26:33 > 0:26:38on Kensington Park Road and there were 20 taxis, 10 messenger bikes...

0:26:38 > 0:26:41They were all there waiting for it.

0:26:41 > 0:26:46As soon as it was released... Off it went into the world.

0:26:46 > 0:26:50It was like woah, people do give a damn about this stuff. It's amazing.

0:26:50 > 0:26:51We were just in total chaos.

0:26:51 > 0:26:54I remember there were records flying in the front door

0:26:54 > 0:26:56and flying out at the same time.

0:26:56 > 0:27:00# Cos you started to shout out in the street... #

0:27:01 > 0:27:08Stiff Little Fingers' album, Rough 1, was are their first album.

0:27:08 > 0:27:10Miraculously it was hugely successful.

0:27:10 > 0:27:14It sold 100,000 copies in virtually no time at all.

0:27:14 > 0:27:19And it put the label on the map and made us say to ourselves,

0:27:19 > 0:27:22"You know what, this isn't that hard, is it?"

0:27:22 > 0:27:26The Stiff Little Fingers album was a pay-off of for an idealism.

0:27:27 > 0:27:30The Clash didn't really need to go to CBS.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33Stiff Little Fingers proved that.

0:27:36 > 0:27:40100,000 copies, that generates a huge amount of turnover.

0:27:40 > 0:27:43That in itself was the building blocks on which

0:27:43 > 0:27:45the label was able to go forward.

0:27:45 > 0:27:48That was the cash flow that enabled us to do other records.

0:27:48 > 0:27:50Hello, Mike, how are you?

0:27:52 > 0:27:54Stiff Little Fingers' breakthrough

0:27:54 > 0:27:57was a key moment for the independent sector.

0:27:57 > 0:28:00And it showed Rough Trade that one band's success

0:28:00 > 0:28:03could fund a whole bunch of less commercial records,

0:28:03 > 0:28:06as bands like The Raincoats happily discovered.

0:28:08 > 0:28:12When they phoned from Rough Trade saying the record is here.

0:28:12 > 0:28:13I just walked down and I just felt...

0:28:13 > 0:28:16I was on top of the world... Completely.

0:28:16 > 0:28:22# This is just a fairy tale

0:28:22 > 0:28:30# Happening in the supermarket... #

0:28:32 > 0:28:33The Raincoats were not alone,

0:28:33 > 0:28:37as the label began to build a roster of artists that fulfilled

0:28:37 > 0:28:40the Rough Trade ethos of offering a diverse alternative

0:28:40 > 0:28:42to mainstream music.

0:28:44 > 0:28:50Metal Urbain, Dr Mix who were Metal Urbain's alter ego.

0:28:50 > 0:28:54Essential Logic, Young Marble Giants, Scritti Politti.

0:28:54 > 0:28:56- The Fall... - Television Personalities.

0:28:56 > 0:28:58- Ivor Cutler.- Swell Maps.- Pop Group.

0:28:58 > 0:29:01- And then, of course, there were Kleenex.- Delta Five.- Slits.

0:29:01 > 0:29:05The Electric Eels. Fantastic single.

0:29:05 > 0:29:07- Space Energy.- Robert Wyatt.

0:29:07 > 0:29:11James "Blood" Ulmer had worked with Ornette Coleman.

0:29:11 > 0:29:14Subway sect, of course, seems like such an important record.

0:29:14 > 0:29:17It's only one single. And there was all this electronic stuff.

0:29:17 > 0:29:21Or they were doing the production and distribution for independent

0:29:21 > 0:29:24record labels like Throbbing Gristle, Industrial Records

0:29:24 > 0:29:29which at the time were selling absolutely pot loads of stuff.

0:29:29 > 0:29:33# This is just a fairy tale... #

0:29:33 > 0:29:36The variety that you find on major labels is just,

0:29:36 > 0:29:38"Do you like this kind of music?

0:29:38 > 0:29:41"What kind of party are you having?"

0:29:41 > 0:29:44"Get you one of these, everything's gonna happen like that."

0:29:44 > 0:29:46At Rough Trade you met a variety and range of people

0:29:46 > 0:29:49who didn't have a look in in the mainstream industry,

0:29:49 > 0:29:52and wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell

0:29:52 > 0:29:54if that's all there was to it.

0:29:56 > 0:30:00By 1979, while Rough Trade was starting to find its feet as a label,

0:30:00 > 0:30:04Rough Trade Distribution was becoming a serious player

0:30:04 > 0:30:06in the music business,

0:30:06 > 0:30:09driving sales for a nationwide network

0:30:09 > 0:30:11of increasingly successful independent labels.

0:30:11 > 0:30:15Companies like 2 Tone, who'd signed The Specials.

0:30:16 > 0:30:21# Why must you record my phone calls...

0:30:21 > 0:30:26Here came somebody with something, who used Rough Trade distribution,

0:30:26 > 0:30:28and they had that Al Capone single.

0:30:28 > 0:30:33I remember going down with the band to Island, who were pressing it,

0:30:33 > 0:30:37coming back to the Rough Trade office with all the boxes.

0:30:37 > 0:30:40And then we all sat round with a rubber stamp,

0:30:40 > 0:30:44pressing these records just to go downstairs and get distributed.

0:30:47 > 0:30:52Rough Trade realised that it could marshal its forces around something

0:30:52 > 0:30:53and actually make it happen.

0:30:53 > 0:30:56We sold 375,000 of those singles.

0:30:56 > 0:31:01That was the shift, in my mind, to an understanding

0:31:01 > 0:31:03that it could serve us on the entry in,

0:31:03 > 0:31:05people came in with ideas,

0:31:05 > 0:31:08and it could also serve us on the outgoing idea.

0:31:08 > 0:31:11"If you like that, no problem, we got it for you."

0:31:11 > 0:31:13When Rough Trade began in 1976,

0:31:13 > 0:31:18there were about a dozen independent labels in Britain.

0:31:18 > 0:31:21By the end of the decade, there were over 800.

0:31:21 > 0:31:23Rough Trade distribution

0:31:23 > 0:31:27was at the hub of this explosion of independent music,

0:31:27 > 0:31:31and the label had redefined the politics of record production.

0:31:31 > 0:31:35The music industry would never be the same again.

0:31:43 > 0:31:45'Stiff Little Fingers are about to embark on

0:31:45 > 0:31:47'on a gruelling tour of the UK,'

0:31:47 > 0:31:50but they are with us tonight, before they do that

0:31:50 > 0:31:51with their single At The End.

0:31:51 > 0:31:56# Back when I was younger they were talking at me

0:31:56 > 0:31:59# Never listened to a word I said... #

0:31:59 > 0:32:03In 1980, Rough Trade's socialist radicals moved into new offices

0:32:03 > 0:32:05around the corner from the shop.

0:32:05 > 0:32:09They were just one of a growing movement of left-wing collectives

0:32:09 > 0:32:11like City Limits Magazine,

0:32:11 > 0:32:15and activist groups like Rock Against Racism, that challenged the ideology

0:32:15 > 0:32:19of Margaret Thatcher's recently elected Conservative government.

0:32:21 > 0:32:26It was an era when moral values, respect for your fellow man,

0:32:26 > 0:32:33an egalitarian sense of brotherhood and sisterhood came to the surface

0:32:33 > 0:32:36in a corrupt, dog-eat-dog world.

0:32:36 > 0:32:39Rough Trade represented a serious alternative

0:32:39 > 0:32:43to the cut-throat, corporate music industry.

0:32:43 > 0:32:46The shop had become a Mecca for independent music.

0:32:46 > 0:32:51Richard Scott's distribution operation was expanding by the day.

0:32:51 > 0:32:55Geoff Travis had released over 30 singles on the Rough Trade label,

0:32:55 > 0:33:00and its debut album had smashed the chart monopoly of the major labels.

0:33:00 > 0:33:03# And I'm running at the edge of the world

0:33:03 > 0:33:06# They are criticising something they just can't understand... #

0:33:06 > 0:33:08Rough Trade's biggest problem

0:33:08 > 0:33:11was holding on to bands once they'd broken through.

0:33:11 > 0:33:15By the time Stiff Little Fingers made it to Top Of The Pops in 1980,

0:33:15 > 0:33:18they were no longer a Rough Trade band.

0:33:21 > 0:33:24Stiff Little Fingers couldn't wait to sign to a major

0:33:24 > 0:33:27straight after they'd made their Rough Trade record.

0:33:27 > 0:33:31Then it dawned on us we had a brain drain problem.

0:33:32 > 0:33:37So there was always this anxiety about losing talent.

0:33:37 > 0:33:40If we don't respond in some sense to the growth of our fans

0:33:40 > 0:33:41by a certain amount of growth,

0:33:41 > 0:33:44all it means is that we will be a nursery ground

0:33:44 > 0:33:47for every major label that exists in this country.

0:33:47 > 0:33:50And it doesn't seem, in the long run, that's a very good idea

0:33:50 > 0:33:53because all it means is you give the band

0:33:53 > 0:33:56a chance to live out their ideals for a few years

0:33:56 > 0:33:58and then they go and join a corporation

0:33:58 > 0:34:02and whatever happens is up to them after that...will happen.

0:34:02 > 0:34:05It's very debatable whether that's good or bad. We think it's bad.

0:34:06 > 0:34:09Rough Trade's principled refusal

0:34:09 > 0:34:11to tie artists to conventional record deals

0:34:11 > 0:34:15made the threat of losing its biggest bands ever-present.

0:34:15 > 0:34:20Reconciling its alternative business ethic with the need to make a profit

0:34:20 > 0:34:23would prove a major issue throughout the eighties.

0:34:25 > 0:34:29It was a decade that would also raise some difficult questions

0:34:29 > 0:34:33about what kind of music Rough Trade should, or shouldn't, be releasing.

0:34:33 > 0:34:36A debate brought sharply into focus in 1981

0:34:36 > 0:34:39when one of the label's most radical artists

0:34:39 > 0:34:42announced a drastic change in direction.

0:34:42 > 0:34:46Really what happened is I started to have panic attacks.

0:34:46 > 0:34:49I didn't realise that's what they were at the time.

0:34:49 > 0:34:52I ended up in hospital in Brighton.

0:34:52 > 0:34:55I hadn't spoken to my parents for very many years,

0:34:55 > 0:34:59so they got in touch and took me back to Wales, where I was born,

0:34:59 > 0:35:02and tried to help me get myself back together.

0:35:02 > 0:35:04And whilst I was there

0:35:04 > 0:35:07I took the opportunity to take stock of what we were up to.

0:35:07 > 0:35:11I listened to lots of records that I hadn't really listened to before.

0:35:11 > 0:35:13Black American pop music.

0:35:13 > 0:35:18So there was a discovery of black pop music and reading

0:35:18 > 0:35:22lots of European thinkers, all of which ended up with me

0:35:22 > 0:35:26deciding we should try and make pop music.

0:35:30 > 0:35:34Making pop music meant swapping the low-tech, home-made aesthetic

0:35:34 > 0:35:38that Scritti Politti had already pioneered on two Rough Trade EPs,

0:35:38 > 0:35:42for expensive studio production and a slick sound.

0:35:45 > 0:35:47Technically it was a new frontier.

0:35:47 > 0:35:49I didn't know how to write a pop song

0:35:49 > 0:35:51and I wanted to find out how you did it.

0:35:51 > 0:35:56The resulting record was Scritti Politti's bid for chart success.

0:35:56 > 0:35:59But not everybody approved.

0:35:59 > 0:36:03# Sweetest girl in all the world

0:36:03 > 0:36:07# Whose eyes are for you only... #

0:36:08 > 0:36:12It was a significant moment, significant in as much as

0:36:12 > 0:36:16there were lots of people at Rough Trade who kind of didn't like it.

0:36:17 > 0:36:20At this time, there was a question of whether you liked

0:36:20 > 0:36:21commercial musical not.

0:36:21 > 0:36:26There was also a whole ideology going on within local culture

0:36:26 > 0:36:30of independence versus mainstream, of non-commercial versus commercial.

0:36:30 > 0:36:33I just thought this was shadow-boxing.

0:36:33 > 0:36:36I didn't see it as making much difference

0:36:36 > 0:36:40to the balance of power in the world between rich and poor...

0:36:42 > 0:36:44..What kind of records you made.

0:36:44 > 0:36:46I just couldn't see the connection.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50But producing expensive, radio-friendly pop music,

0:36:50 > 0:36:53seemed at odds with Rough Trade's alternative agenda.

0:36:53 > 0:36:58To some, this was tantamount to chasing hits and selling out.

0:36:59 > 0:37:02The Sweetest Girl got £60,000.

0:37:04 > 0:37:07Here is a record company, Rough Trade,

0:37:07 > 0:37:09who is very careful with its budgeting.

0:37:09 > 0:37:11I don't know what it is,

0:37:11 > 0:37:15it's like we really are going to take over the world. Damn!

0:37:15 > 0:37:18I don't know if it's drinking too much of your own piss,

0:37:18 > 0:37:23starting to believe your own publicity...or what.

0:37:25 > 0:37:27I don't know.

0:37:27 > 0:37:31That was the first evidence of a sort of cancer.

0:37:31 > 0:37:38Evidence of people swimming uphill to try and compete in this industry

0:37:38 > 0:37:41where we were doing all right, being an outsider.

0:37:41 > 0:37:47It was this kind of moment of like, "Oh, no, we need to plug records,

0:37:47 > 0:37:52"we need to sell lots of records, we need to make really polished music,

0:37:52 > 0:37:56- "we need to have hits."- Well...

0:37:56 > 0:37:59This is a very interesting charge.

0:37:59 > 0:38:02I just don't think that I've ever gone looking for a hit

0:38:02 > 0:38:05in anything that I have ever thought about.

0:38:05 > 0:38:08I think there's a very different thing when somebody makes a hit

0:38:08 > 0:38:10and gives you a hit.

0:38:10 > 0:38:12I think Scritti Politti's Sweetest Girl

0:38:12 > 0:38:14is, without a shadow of a doubt, worthy of being a hit.

0:38:16 > 0:38:22The Sweetest Girl's highest chart position was 64 in 1981.

0:38:22 > 0:38:23It wasn't a hit.

0:38:26 > 0:38:28Undeterred, Rough Trade went on to sign

0:38:28 > 0:38:31another more commercially focused band.

0:38:32 > 0:38:33Contemporaries of Orange Juice,

0:38:33 > 0:38:36some three years ago on the Postcard label,

0:38:36 > 0:38:39are now tasting the heady world of success on the Rough Trade label

0:38:39 > 0:38:40with their first LP.

0:38:40 > 0:38:43Could you please welcome to the studio, Aztec Camera.

0:38:43 > 0:38:46# Last summer We walked to the farm. #

0:38:49 > 0:38:53They began to be these discussions going around the office

0:38:53 > 0:38:59about we can disguise the socialist political agenda and make it pop,

0:38:59 > 0:39:03so we can get kids singing along to pop records with this agenda,

0:39:03 > 0:39:07that they were going to be able to push across to Top Of The Pops

0:39:07 > 0:39:11or something, and began to be all this weird talk

0:39:11 > 0:39:15about whether it would sell or not, which had never been their...

0:39:17 > 0:39:19..their modus.

0:39:19 > 0:39:22I think people forget that Stiff Little Fingers

0:39:22 > 0:39:23was a big commercial success.

0:39:23 > 0:39:26That we were distributing records that were hits.

0:39:26 > 0:39:28It was never part of the Rough Trade project

0:39:28 > 0:39:32to shy away from the mainstream if the mainstream came to Rough Trade,

0:39:32 > 0:39:34but we never went running after it.

0:39:35 > 0:39:37# I hear your footsteps In the street... #

0:39:40 > 0:39:43Three lads from Glasgow woke up this morning to find

0:39:43 > 0:39:46that their single has leapt into the top 20, can you believe it?

0:39:46 > 0:39:49Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Aztec Camera.

0:39:49 > 0:39:52# Oblivious...#

0:39:53 > 0:39:58When Aztec Camera did make it into the charts in 1983,

0:39:58 > 0:40:02just like Stiff Little Fingers before them, they'd left Rough Trade.

0:40:02 > 0:40:05# Next time I go to bed I'll pray like Aretha Franklin. #

0:40:05 > 0:40:13And a year later, when Scritti Politti finally made the top ten,

0:40:13 > 0:40:16they too had signed to a major.

0:40:16 > 0:40:18It seemed that the label couldn't deliver a hit,

0:40:18 > 0:40:21even if it had wanted one.

0:40:21 > 0:40:24We were still very young as a record company.

0:40:24 > 0:40:28We still had a huge amount to learn about selling records,

0:40:28 > 0:40:31of sales forces, of sales teams,

0:40:31 > 0:40:33of making deals with supermarkets,

0:40:33 > 0:40:37as making sure that we were as competitive as the next person.

0:40:37 > 0:40:41But just as Scritti Politti left Rough Trade,

0:40:41 > 0:40:46their guest keyboard player did, unexpectedly, crack the top 40.

0:40:48 > 0:40:50# Is it worth it?

0:40:50 > 0:40:54One of the few songs inspired by the recent Falklands war

0:40:54 > 0:40:56was called Ship Building.

0:40:56 > 0:40:58It was written by Elvis Costello and Clive Manger,

0:40:58 > 0:41:00and performed by Robert Wyatt.

0:41:00 > 0:41:03It won various critics' polls as the best single of last year,

0:41:03 > 0:41:05and now it's been re-promoted by Rough Trade

0:41:05 > 0:41:08in an effort to give it the success it deserves.

0:41:08 > 0:41:10Geoff Travis signed Robert Wyatt

0:41:10 > 0:41:15in an attempt to rescue an important artist from musical obscurity.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18Hit records were not on the agenda.

0:41:18 > 0:41:19We were trying to earn a living.

0:41:19 > 0:41:22I hadn't been in the wheelchair that long.

0:41:22 > 0:41:24I'd been in a wheelchair since ...

0:41:24 > 0:41:29hospital in '73, put a record out in '74.

0:41:29 > 0:41:32And I just got in a panic after a while.

0:41:32 > 0:41:36The record company I was officially with, I didn't want to be with.

0:41:36 > 0:41:39They didn't allow me to make any LPs for anybody else,

0:41:39 > 0:41:41even though I couldn't make any for them either.

0:41:42 > 0:41:45And Geoff said, "Let's make some singles then."

0:41:45 > 0:41:48The great thing about making singles for Geoff

0:41:48 > 0:41:52was that the commercial potential was ignored. Just as well.

0:41:56 > 0:41:58Robert Wyatt took Shipbuilding,

0:41:58 > 0:42:02an anti-war protest song, to number 36 in 1982.

0:42:02 > 0:42:05It displayed Rough Trade's political credentials,

0:42:05 > 0:42:10and chimed with the label's support for other left-wing campaigns.

0:42:10 > 0:42:15It's almost as if the great unconscious of pop musicians

0:42:15 > 0:42:18has slightly been pricked by a few things in the past few months,

0:42:18 > 0:42:19and I think it's wonderful.

0:42:21 > 0:42:25The charge that Rough Trade was only interested in chasing hits

0:42:25 > 0:42:28was also at odds with a roster

0:42:28 > 0:42:31that included Mark E. Smith's uncompromising band

0:42:31 > 0:42:33of maverick Mancunians, The Fall.

0:42:33 > 0:42:35Something to dance to.

0:42:39 > 0:42:42I wasn't expecting Mark to have a hit.

0:42:44 > 0:42:47I was just expecting him to make great records.

0:42:47 > 0:42:52# Lousy celebrity makes record Smiles. #

0:42:52 > 0:42:58Records by The Fall, Pere Ubu, Cabaret Voltaire and The Swell Maps

0:42:58 > 0:43:02proved Rough Trade's commitment to challenging and alternative music.

0:43:02 > 0:43:06And even without hit records from the label,

0:43:06 > 0:43:09Rough Trade's distribution turnover was huge.

0:43:09 > 0:43:13Ad-hoc arrangements with independent record stores had been formalised

0:43:13 > 0:43:16into a sales network called the Cartel,

0:43:16 > 0:43:21which supplied over 300 shops with records from over 500 labels.

0:43:23 > 0:43:28But as some of these labels began to enjoy massive sales,

0:43:28 > 0:43:30it became obvious that, in business terms,

0:43:30 > 0:43:34Rough Trade's inexperienced staff were way out of their depth.

0:43:38 > 0:43:41# And I watched that man to A stranger. #

0:43:41 > 0:43:45We had no business experience in those days.

0:43:45 > 0:43:48We had to make it up as we went along,

0:43:48 > 0:43:52and as a result of just the pure volume going through,

0:43:52 > 0:43:56we actually ran into financial difficulties fairly regularly.

0:43:56 > 0:43:59# New life, new life. #

0:43:59 > 0:44:05I think the first problem arose out of the Joy Division record,

0:44:05 > 0:44:06Unknown Pleasures.

0:44:06 > 0:44:10They ran out of money before they could pay the factory.

0:44:10 > 0:44:13A similar thing happened with Mute as well.

0:44:13 > 0:44:14Mute had two big records,

0:44:14 > 0:44:18the first Depeche Mode record and then the first Yazoo record.

0:44:18 > 0:44:23# Complicating circulating New life, new life. #

0:44:23 > 0:44:27And again the money wasn't managed very well

0:44:27 > 0:44:29so when they came round to paying me,

0:44:29 > 0:44:30they'd already spent the money.

0:44:30 > 0:44:33Following a series of cash flow crises,

0:44:33 > 0:44:38Rough Trade brought in its first qualified accountant in 1982.

0:44:38 > 0:44:41He found the company was close to going bust.

0:44:41 > 0:44:45A financial audit revealed that the company owed money

0:44:45 > 0:44:46it simply didn't have.

0:44:46 > 0:44:49The record label and distribution system

0:44:49 > 0:44:51were Rough Trade's core activities.

0:44:51 > 0:44:55If they were to be saved, everything else would have to be sacrificed.

0:44:55 > 0:44:57That meant disposing of the shop.

0:45:00 > 0:45:05You know, I don't know too much about that, I have to say.

0:45:05 > 0:45:09I think I must have been distracted by something else,

0:45:11 > 0:45:14because I can't remember being particularly party to discussions

0:45:14 > 0:45:17about what was going to happen to the shop.

0:45:17 > 0:45:22So that's lost to me, in that difficult period.

0:45:26 > 0:45:29We were called in to a meeting,

0:45:29 > 0:45:31as I recall, sort of, individually,

0:45:31 > 0:45:33and told that they were going to shut the shop.

0:45:37 > 0:45:40We felt kind of betrayed,

0:45:40 > 0:45:44and so we went back to Geoff and said, if we can

0:45:44 > 0:45:48keep the name, can we carry on with the shop?

0:45:49 > 0:45:53In December 1982, six years after opening,

0:45:53 > 0:45:57the Rough Trade shop was sold to three of its staff.

0:45:57 > 0:46:01They kept the name and still run the shop today.

0:46:03 > 0:46:06Financial collapse, for now, had been averted.

0:46:06 > 0:46:08But the crisis exposed a rift

0:46:08 > 0:46:11between the label and Rough Trade's distribution arm.

0:46:13 > 0:46:18Geoff asked me to leave at that time, just completely out of

0:46:18 > 0:46:20the blue, which came as a bit of a shock.

0:46:22 > 0:46:25But after talking to

0:46:25 > 0:46:27others there,

0:46:27 > 0:46:30I was then persuaded not to.

0:46:30 > 0:46:31Who asked him to leave?

0:46:31 > 0:46:33< He said that you did.

0:46:34 > 0:46:36Well ... yeah.

0:46:36 > 0:46:38Really I can't remember.

0:46:38 > 0:46:40I wonder what he did.

0:46:40 > 0:46:44I think he was being more and more antagonistic, really.

0:46:44 > 0:46:46But yeah.

0:46:47 > 0:46:53He thought that I'd been personally responsible for some of the

0:46:53 > 0:46:56worst losses.

0:46:56 > 0:47:02I could then never actually regard or deal with Geoff in the same way.

0:47:02 > 0:47:04From that point on,

0:47:04 > 0:47:07it seemed to me that the record label became completely

0:47:07 > 0:47:10the domain of Geoff,

0:47:10 > 0:47:16whereas the distribution was being masterminded by Richard.

0:47:16 > 0:47:21The conflict between record label and distribution would never be resolved.

0:47:21 > 0:47:27The communal vibe of Rough Trade's early days seemed a long way away.

0:47:27 > 0:47:29Where before you could be relaxed and do your thing

0:47:29 > 0:47:32and get through, now you had targets,

0:47:32 > 0:47:35you had this to do, and if you didn't keep the targets,

0:47:35 > 0:47:37they'd be asking why you hadn't kept your targets.

0:47:37 > 0:47:40So there's a lot of pressure put on people.

0:47:40 > 0:47:44That mood of, you can kick back, I'll do it tomorrow,

0:47:44 > 0:47:45all that had gone.

0:47:45 > 0:47:48And then you've got people started getting worried,

0:47:48 > 0:47:51because of job security.

0:47:54 > 0:47:58If this wasn't selling, or this group didn't do their thing

0:47:58 > 0:48:00or you know, didn't sell enough units.

0:48:00 > 0:48:05And in Rough Trade we never talked about selling records as units.

0:48:05 > 0:48:10Rough Trade's rapid growth had raised some difficult dilemmas.

0:48:10 > 0:48:12Distribution demanded increased record sales

0:48:12 > 0:48:15to drive its ever-expanding operation.

0:48:15 > 0:48:19The record label needed commercial success, but fiercely guarded its

0:48:19 > 0:48:24independent identity, built on the alternative credibility of its music.

0:48:27 > 0:48:30The perfect solution to all of these problems came from

0:48:30 > 0:48:34a pair of ambitious songwriters from Manchester.

0:48:34 > 0:48:37The only way that I could find any mental relaxation

0:48:37 > 0:48:40is just simply go out and walk,

0:48:40 > 0:48:44which can seem quite depressing to most people.

0:48:44 > 0:48:46But for me it was perfect fuel,

0:48:46 > 0:48:50because then I would go home and I would write furiously.

0:48:50 > 0:48:53And I found that

0:48:53 > 0:48:55for me it was a brilliant outlet.

0:48:55 > 0:48:57It was the thing that helped.

0:48:57 > 0:49:00But also you have to have a grain of hope,

0:49:00 > 0:49:02which is a very difficult thing to have.

0:49:02 > 0:49:06The first day that we were officially like a partnership,

0:49:06 > 0:49:08which was the second time we got together,

0:49:08 > 0:49:11part of our get together was making this almost, like,

0:49:11 > 0:49:14mental wish list, if you like.

0:49:14 > 0:49:16And part of that conversation was,

0:49:16 > 0:49:18we should sign to Rough Trade Records.

0:49:18 > 0:49:23On a Friday afternoon in April 1983,

0:49:23 > 0:49:28Johnny Marr walked into the Rough Trade offices with a demo tape.

0:49:28 > 0:49:31I said I wanted to see Geoff Travis

0:49:31 > 0:49:35and I was kind of hustled out, really.

0:49:35 > 0:49:40But I kind of hung around, kind of pretending to be like

0:49:40 > 0:49:42doing stuff with records.

0:49:42 > 0:49:45And I was in there for an hour or two,

0:49:45 > 0:49:48and then I saw Geoff come out of his office.

0:49:48 > 0:49:50I think he was a little taken aback.

0:49:50 > 0:49:54I think I actually grabbed his sleeve

0:49:54 > 0:49:57and stopped him, because he was trying to get away.

0:49:57 > 0:50:01And I gave him this cassette, and I said,

0:50:01 > 0:50:04"I'm from Manchester. This is my band, the Smiths."

0:50:04 > 0:50:06And something along the lines of,

0:50:06 > 0:50:08"You won't have heard anything like this before."

0:50:11 > 0:50:15I took it home that weekend and listened to it about 20 times

0:50:15 > 0:50:17and was really intrigued by it.

0:50:18 > 0:50:20# Hand in glove

0:50:20 > 0:50:23# The sun shines out Of our behinds. #

0:50:23 > 0:50:27You couldn't really make out the words,

0:50:27 > 0:50:29but it was something wonderful.

0:50:29 > 0:50:33To Geoff's absolute credit, he called first thing on Monday

0:50:33 > 0:50:36and said "This is the best thing I've heard for ages,

0:50:36 > 0:50:38"and I want to sign it to Rough Trade."

0:50:38 > 0:50:42It was like, "Bullseye, that is what we are going to do."

0:50:42 > 0:50:46# And if the people stare then the people stare. #

0:50:46 > 0:50:50The Smiths and Rough Trade were a perfectly-timed marriage.

0:50:50 > 0:50:53The original impact of the post-punk, new wave

0:50:53 > 0:50:55and New Romantic movements had passed.

0:50:55 > 0:50:57It was time for something new.

0:50:57 > 0:51:00That something was indie music.

0:51:00 > 0:51:03And it began with the Smiths.

0:51:03 > 0:51:07I grew up on the Smiths. They defined my teenage years completely.

0:51:07 > 0:51:10So the first time I saw the name Rough Trade

0:51:10 > 0:51:14was on the back of Hand In Glove, the first single.

0:51:16 > 0:51:18I didn't know Geoff Travis or Rough Trade.

0:51:18 > 0:51:21I didn't know anybody. I was a schoolboy.

0:51:21 > 0:51:23But the way I saw it was that it was a battle.

0:51:23 > 0:51:26It was alternative and independent,

0:51:26 > 0:51:29and to major record companies, that was a dirty word.

0:51:29 > 0:51:32They were the enemy. Rough Trade was the enemy.

0:51:32 > 0:51:36They were seen as just infiltrators, out to spoil the party.

0:51:36 > 0:51:38And groups like the Smiths were out to spoil the party

0:51:38 > 0:51:42for Simple Minds and Wet Wet Wet and all this kind of rubbish.

0:51:42 > 0:51:44It was just rubbish.

0:51:44 > 0:51:48Facing fierce competition, Rough Trade abandoned the principle of the

0:51:48 > 0:51:52"no ties", 50-50 deal, and for the first time in its history, offered

0:51:52 > 0:51:55the band a conventional record contract,

0:51:55 > 0:51:59a long-term deal that guaranteed the label four albums.

0:52:01 > 0:52:05The majors started inviting us to meetings and got interested in us.

0:52:05 > 0:52:08But we didn't want to be on a major,

0:52:08 > 0:52:10and Rough Trade didn't want to be majors.

0:52:12 > 0:52:16It was a really great partnership.

0:52:16 > 0:52:18Johnny puts the music down on a cassette,

0:52:18 > 0:52:21and he gives me the cassette, and I live with the cassette

0:52:21 > 0:52:24for a few days, and I just wheedle words into the cassette.

0:52:24 > 0:52:26And then we just all get together

0:52:26 > 0:52:29and it happens at the drop of a cassette.

0:52:29 > 0:52:34Rough Trade gave the Smiths independent credibility.

0:52:34 > 0:52:38Morrissey and Marr put their new label into the charts at number 25,

0:52:38 > 0:52:40with release number 136.

0:52:40 > 0:52:47# A punctured bicycle On a hillside desolate. #

0:52:47 > 0:52:49When This Charming Man came out,

0:52:49 > 0:52:53it wasn't just that things were going the right direction.

0:52:53 > 0:52:56It was like the sun came out for the label and the band and the fans,

0:52:56 > 0:52:58and fans of indie music.

0:52:58 > 0:53:02# This Charming Man. #

0:53:02 > 0:53:04There was a big difference between This Charming Man

0:53:04 > 0:53:05and Club Tropicana.

0:53:05 > 0:53:07You know, there was a big fucking difference to me.

0:53:07 > 0:53:11It meant the world to me that I could explain what that difference

0:53:11 > 0:53:13was to almost everybody that I met.

0:53:13 > 0:53:19# I would go out tonight, but I haven't got a stitch to wear. #

0:53:19 > 0:53:25What they made me recognise was that pop records were a great art form.

0:53:25 > 0:53:29Three minutes could change your life completely.

0:53:29 > 0:53:32Or they could make you get out of the dreary existence you had,

0:53:32 > 0:53:34and save you from it.

0:53:34 > 0:53:35# A jumped-up country boy. #

0:53:35 > 0:53:40To promote its first hit single, Rough Trade hired London Records, a

0:53:40 > 0:53:45major label sales force, and mounted an expensive marketing campaign.

0:53:45 > 0:53:48# I would go out tonight

0:53:48 > 0:53:52# But I haven't got A stitch to wear. #

0:53:52 > 0:53:57It was certainly unusual for Rough Trade to be spending

0:53:57 > 0:54:00a lot of money on this blanket poster campaign.

0:54:00 > 0:54:03But it wasn't an issue of them sitting around going,

0:54:03 > 0:54:06"Does it go against our principles?"

0:54:06 > 0:54:09"We have got a record that demands a poster campaign. Fantastic.

0:54:09 > 0:54:11It's all gonna come together."

0:54:11 > 0:54:14They were still Rough Trade records.

0:54:14 > 0:54:19Doing things in an independent way, and they had a band who wanted to be

0:54:19 > 0:54:22with them who were about to have this big run of singles.

0:54:22 > 0:54:25And they were high on the success they were about to have as a label,

0:54:25 > 0:54:27and we were high on our success.

0:54:27 > 0:54:30It was like a perfect kind of union at that time.

0:54:30 > 0:54:33A string of Smiths hits followed,

0:54:33 > 0:54:36but there were internal murmurings of discontent

0:54:36 > 0:54:39as Rough Trade's sales strategies began to mimic

0:54:39 > 0:54:43the marketing machines of the major labels.

0:54:43 > 0:54:46Their LP called The Smiths is coming out on February 24th,

0:54:46 > 0:54:50and they have got a hit single called What Difference Does It Make?

0:54:52 > 0:54:57You break a single the first week, and then the third week is crucial.

0:54:57 > 0:54:59Does it drop, or does it go up to 36?

0:54:59 > 0:55:01Here they are, the Smiths, this week's number 20.

0:55:01 > 0:55:03What Difference Does It Make?

0:55:05 > 0:55:07If it goes up to 36, you might break it.

0:55:07 > 0:55:11# What difference does it make? #

0:55:11 > 0:55:13You get a plugger. You get more professionals in,

0:55:13 > 0:55:15more and more expertise.

0:55:15 > 0:55:17You apply these devices to this thing

0:55:17 > 0:55:19and try to make it happen in some terms.

0:55:19 > 0:55:23- You start playing the game. - Number 23 this week, the Smiths.

0:55:23 > 0:55:27# Would you like to marry me? And if You like, you can buy the ring. #

0:55:27 > 0:55:28I can remember Geoff saying

0:55:28 > 0:55:32to me one day that Morrissey was going to be the new Boy George.

0:55:35 > 0:55:40And I remember thinking, is that what I'm coming to work for?

0:55:40 > 0:55:42Is that what really need?

0:55:42 > 0:55:48I mean, I was astounded that there was that kind of change.

0:55:48 > 0:55:50We only have one thing to say to that.

0:55:53 > 0:55:55Things had changed.

0:55:55 > 0:55:56I had appointments with a guy

0:55:56 > 0:55:59who ran Virgin Records, and I was negotiating with him

0:55:59 > 0:56:02about how many signed copies of Smiths records he was going to get,

0:56:02 > 0:56:04who was going to get the T-shirts.

0:56:04 > 0:56:06Suddenly we had licensing in Germany and Austria.

0:56:06 > 0:56:10The GAS territories, Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

0:56:10 > 0:56:13Suddenly, you know, it is in Japan.

0:56:13 > 0:56:15You got to satisfy Woolies, you got to satisfy Our Price,

0:56:15 > 0:56:18you've got to satisfy Virgin. You've got to satisfy HMV.

0:56:18 > 0:56:20You are part of a machine.

0:56:20 > 0:56:23# In my life. #

0:56:23 > 0:56:27For the label, it was definitely a period of

0:56:27 > 0:56:30re-evaluation internally.

0:56:30 > 0:56:34Because it was really quite dogmatic,

0:56:34 > 0:56:42this collective democratic immovable model that it had set itself up as.

0:56:42 > 0:56:44But it really needed to move forward,

0:56:44 > 0:56:48and Geoff in particular I think wanted that, and knew that.

0:56:48 > 0:56:51They were the best group around.

0:56:51 > 0:56:54They were making music, and even though it was strange,

0:56:54 > 0:56:56it was still hugely commercial.

0:56:56 > 0:56:59I think if we were going to have any chance of keeping them,

0:56:59 > 0:57:01and perhaps by now we had got fed up with losing

0:57:01 > 0:57:05these artists, and thought, we need to do this job properly now.

0:57:10 > 0:57:13Rough Trade was becoming more business-orientated.

0:57:16 > 0:57:20In 1984, Richard Scott secured the lease on a warehouse near

0:57:20 > 0:57:25King's Cross, and the company left its spiritual home in West London.

0:57:25 > 0:57:28This would be the new headquarters of a now global outfit

0:57:28 > 0:57:31with offices throughout Europe and in America.

0:57:37 > 0:57:40Rough Trade had never been so big or so profitable.

0:57:40 > 0:57:45Qualified professionals were recruited to manage its growth, and

0:57:45 > 0:57:48they demanded changes to the business that meant sacrificing

0:57:48 > 0:57:52many of Rough Trade's original collective values.

0:58:00 > 0:58:03I think that too much of the record industry is like the Civil Service,

0:58:03 > 0:58:06where there's a fear of making a decision in case you make a mistake,

0:58:06 > 0:58:09and if you make no decision then you can't make a mistake,

0:58:09 > 0:58:10and you keep your job.

0:58:10 > 0:58:13But that isn't not how rock and roll got started.

0:58:14 > 0:58:20And suddenly it had gone from being me and a few other crazy people

0:58:20 > 0:58:25into something that was about 40, 60, 80, 100 people.

0:58:25 > 0:58:27It was a big organisation.

0:58:27 > 0:58:34And with a big organisation came a board, which met to make decisions.

0:58:34 > 0:58:40And an influx of a more professional middle management kind of creature.

0:58:40 > 0:58:43Who spoke a kind of language which was just gobbledegook.

0:58:43 > 0:58:45It was something that you learn from a book.

0:58:45 > 0:58:47And that really was not helpful.

0:58:49 > 0:58:51I was one of those people.

0:58:51 > 0:58:53I was one of the middle managers that was brought in.

0:58:53 > 0:58:56Still in that period where everybody was being paid the same salary.

0:58:56 > 0:58:58£7,800.

0:58:59 > 0:59:03And you really couldn't get people to come in and manage it for £7,800.

0:59:03 > 0:59:08In 1987, Geoff Travis and a handful of the original staff

0:59:08 > 0:59:12handed over control of Rough Trade to a management trust.

0:59:14 > 0:59:16It meant the introduction of differential pay

0:59:16 > 0:59:18and departmental structures.

0:59:18 > 0:59:21A whole new way of working.

0:59:23 > 0:59:26It was a very difficult transition.

0:59:26 > 0:59:28And it was a hard transition for Geoff.

0:59:28 > 0:59:30He was...

0:59:30 > 0:59:34turning over something that he started to other people who,

0:59:34 > 0:59:39in his mind, probably had no vested interest in music.

0:59:41 > 0:59:45Couldn't care less about the music, which was as far removed from what

0:59:45 > 0:59:48Rough Trade was when it first started.

0:59:48 > 0:59:51But far from making Rough Trade a leaner outfit,

0:59:51 > 0:59:54the new structure was bureaucratic and unwieldy,

0:59:54 > 0:59:57and inflamed the ongoing rift between distribution

0:59:57 > 0:59:59and the record label.

0:59:59 > 1:00:01There's a power struggle really.

1:00:01 > 1:00:09And my mistake was...that I was not interested in the power struggle.

1:00:09 > 1:00:12And I was very quickly marginalised on the board,

1:00:12 > 1:00:15so that anything I said, no one took very seriously.

1:00:15 > 1:00:18And distribution went its own way.

1:00:18 > 1:00:19By that time, there was a war

1:00:19 > 1:00:22between distribution and the record company.

1:00:22 > 1:00:25You couldn't guarantee you were gonna have a hit record,

1:00:25 > 1:00:27so sometimes you're having a bad season, right,

1:00:27 > 1:00:31but distribution's always there, increasing in power...

1:00:31 > 1:00:34And then Rough Trade just gets to be another label,

1:00:34 > 1:00:37which is served by the distribution company that it started.

1:00:37 > 1:00:41# Panic on the streets of London

1:00:41 > 1:00:45# Panic on the streets of Birmingham

1:00:45 > 1:00:49# I wonder to myself... #

1:00:49 > 1:00:52War was also brewing on another front.

1:00:52 > 1:00:56Despite a number one album and six top 20 singles by 1986,

1:00:56 > 1:00:59The Smiths' relationship with Rough Trade

1:00:59 > 1:01:02was becoming increasingly antagonistic.

1:01:04 > 1:01:06# But honey pie you're not safe here... #

1:01:06 > 1:01:10Studio time was always at a minimum. For me, that was a bit of a problem.

1:01:10 > 1:01:14Some records didn't arrive at some places on time occasionally.

1:01:14 > 1:01:17There was some issue with That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore,

1:01:17 > 1:01:20where I think there weren't enough records pressed.

1:01:20 > 1:01:22And the band had no manager,

1:01:22 > 1:01:26so the two principal members of the group are dealing with the label.

1:01:26 > 1:01:30And it's like any relationship, you are spending a lot of time together

1:01:30 > 1:01:33and there's a lot of issues and a lot of things at stake.

1:01:33 > 1:01:36So, like, things get blown out of proportion.

1:01:36 > 1:01:39Rough Trade weren't exactly blameless,

1:01:39 > 1:01:44but it wasn't like a catalogue of catastrophe or anything like that.

1:01:44 > 1:01:48# Burn down the disco

1:01:48 > 1:01:51# Hang the blessed DJ

1:01:51 > 1:01:53# Because the music at the concert... #

1:01:53 > 1:01:56Morrissey always used to say, "We're never on the radio."

1:01:56 > 1:01:58And of course they were on the radio.

1:01:58 > 1:02:02# Hang the DJ hang the DJ

1:02:02 > 1:02:04# Hang the DJ... #

1:02:04 > 1:02:06They did have a series of hit records.

1:02:06 > 1:02:08But I think they just felt...

1:02:08 > 1:02:10they should have more.

1:02:10 > 1:02:13And I mean that's understandable, but irrational.

1:02:13 > 1:02:15The Smiths were not making

1:02:15 > 1:02:19anodyne pretty pop records for 14-year-old girls.

1:02:19 > 1:02:22Therefore they're not gonna sell as many records as Duran Duran.

1:02:22 > 1:02:24It's just a fact of life.

1:02:25 > 1:02:28You have to get used to that, Morrissey.

1:02:28 > 1:02:30# Sweetness sweetness

1:02:30 > 1:02:34# I was only joking when I said by rights

1:02:34 > 1:02:37# You should be bludgeoned in your bed... #

1:02:37 > 1:02:42During the recording of the third album, The Queen Is Dead, in 1986,

1:02:42 > 1:02:45The Smiths tried to sign to EMI.

1:02:45 > 1:02:48Yet again, Rough Trade looked set to lose its biggest act.

1:02:48 > 1:02:51But this time it had the protection of a contract.

1:02:54 > 1:02:57We were stupid.

1:02:57 > 1:03:00We had a couple of people around us who gave us incorrect

1:03:00 > 1:03:02and bad advice.

1:03:02 > 1:03:05And this lawyer saying, "Well, go and sign to someone else."

1:03:05 > 1:03:08And shopping for a deal we didn't really have the rights to do that.

1:03:08 > 1:03:11And Rough Trade said, "Hang on a minute,

1:03:11 > 1:03:14"you owe us a couple more albums." So it caused this stand-off.

1:03:14 > 1:03:17Then we were told, "This record you're working on

1:03:17 > 1:03:19"will be injuncted." This lawyer told me that.

1:03:19 > 1:03:24And that was a bit of a buzz killer, when you're trying to make a record.

1:03:24 > 1:03:29Like, "Guess what, it's not going to come out." Right.

1:03:30 > 1:03:33# I've got no right to take my place with the human race..."

1:03:33 > 1:03:40Because they didn't have a manager, they lacked any kind of voice

1:03:40 > 1:03:42that gave them some semblance of reality.

1:03:42 > 1:03:44That's what destroyed them.

1:03:44 > 1:03:50We didn't have a calming...organising presence.

1:03:50 > 1:03:54And, um, that led to...

1:03:54 > 1:03:58a lot of chaos and a lot of drama and a lot of neurosis.

1:03:58 > 1:04:01And ultimately the band's demise.

1:04:01 > 1:04:06But all of that drama and intensity went into the music.

1:04:06 > 1:04:08You can hear it in the music.

1:04:11 > 1:04:14The Queen Is Dead was released on Rough Trade.

1:04:14 > 1:04:17But after the next record, The Smiths were free to leave.

1:04:17 > 1:04:22Strangeways, Here We Come was to be their last release on Rough Trade.

1:04:22 > 1:04:25But the band was falling apart.

1:04:25 > 1:04:28And it would be their last album, full stop.

1:04:28 > 1:04:32In the end, they signed to EMI and they never gave EMI a record.

1:04:32 > 1:04:35# I am the son

1:04:35 > 1:04:38# and the heir... #

1:04:38 > 1:04:40The Smiths' departure was demoralising,

1:04:40 > 1:04:42but income from their sales

1:04:42 > 1:04:44continued to roll in long after they'd gone

1:04:44 > 1:04:47and the future was far from bleak.

1:04:47 > 1:04:50# Because we do it once do it twice

1:04:50 > 1:04:53# Every single time will be twice as nice... #

1:04:53 > 1:04:57By 1989, the label had its biggest roster of artists to date,

1:04:57 > 1:05:01including The Woodentops and The Sundays, whose debut album

1:05:01 > 1:05:04reached number four in the UK charts.

1:05:04 > 1:05:08# England my country the home of the free

1:05:08 > 1:05:10# Such miserable weather... #

1:05:10 > 1:05:13But indie music was becoming mainstream,

1:05:13 > 1:05:15as every major label rushed to sign

1:05:15 > 1:05:18jangly, guitar-driven, Smiths sound-alikes.

1:05:20 > 1:05:24The real independent spirit had shifted to an emerging scene

1:05:24 > 1:05:27that was the most revolutionary musical movement since punk.

1:05:27 > 1:05:29RAVE MUSIC BLARES

1:05:32 > 1:05:36When the rave scene exploded at the end of the eighties,

1:05:36 > 1:05:38Rough Trade Records seemed to have missed the boat.

1:05:38 > 1:05:41But Rough Trade Distribution had embraced a new wave

1:05:41 > 1:05:46of independent labels driving the dance music revolution

1:05:46 > 1:05:49and its expansion continued apace.

1:05:49 > 1:05:51# The notes will flow yo For the words I speak

1:05:51 > 1:05:55# Rap is weak so I teach and I reach A positive vibe, a way of life... #

1:05:55 > 1:05:58When I joined Rough Trade in that first year in '86,

1:05:58 > 1:06:02it was something like an £8 million a year turnover.

1:06:02 > 1:06:05Within three years it went to £25 million.

1:06:05 > 1:06:07# What time is love?... #

1:06:07 > 1:06:08By the end of the decade,

1:06:08 > 1:06:11distribution accounted for 90 per cent

1:06:11 > 1:06:15of Rough Trade's overall turnover of around 40 million.

1:06:16 > 1:06:21In July 1990, the company once again moved to bigger premises.

1:06:21 > 1:06:24But, despite its growth and professional management,

1:06:24 > 1:06:28the move was just one of a series of disastrous decisions

1:06:28 > 1:06:32and financial blunders which, combined with political in-fighting,

1:06:32 > 1:06:35brought Rough Trade, at its financial peak,

1:06:35 > 1:06:38crashing to the ground.

1:06:38 > 1:06:42We moved to a building without disposing of the previous lease.

1:06:42 > 1:06:46So we were paying for two buildings. You can't do that.

1:06:46 > 1:06:49Distribution bought a computer for a quarter of a million pounds.

1:06:49 > 1:06:52It didn't work.

1:06:52 > 1:06:55They were unfortunate to be hit by some credit control issues

1:06:55 > 1:06:59where other companies went bankrupt owing Rough Trade a lot of money.

1:06:59 > 1:07:02From my point of view, the people from distribution just disappeared.

1:07:02 > 1:07:07The senior sales people left because they could see...

1:07:07 > 1:07:12no end to the arguments with Geoff.

1:07:12 > 1:07:14And once they had gone,

1:07:14 > 1:07:17the management structure ceased to exist.

1:07:17 > 1:07:20It wasn't really anyone's fault, it just grew too big.

1:07:20 > 1:07:23And there was a lack of collective will on the board

1:07:23 > 1:07:27or an ability or experience to work together to solve these problems,

1:07:27 > 1:07:29and that's what happened I think.

1:07:29 > 1:07:31Geoff, I have read...

1:07:31 > 1:07:37saying things about the bad management at the end.

1:07:37 > 1:07:42Well, I mean, Geoff didn't even turn up to board meetings.

1:07:42 > 1:07:45So the whole thing had fallen apart.

1:07:48 > 1:07:51In the end, it was simple cash flow mismanagement

1:07:51 > 1:07:53that sealed Rough Trade's fate.

1:07:55 > 1:07:57They were having a huge amount of success,

1:07:57 > 1:08:00all the money was going into the warehouse,

1:08:00 > 1:08:03all the money was going into the software.

1:08:03 > 1:08:06Geoff was releasing quite a lot of records at that time.

1:08:06 > 1:08:12Cash flow projections were either incorrect or ignored, you know.

1:08:12 > 1:08:14And they ran out of cash.

1:08:15 > 1:08:20In December 1990, hamstrung by a series of unpaid distribution debts

1:08:20 > 1:08:23and despite a record annual turnover,

1:08:23 > 1:08:27Rough Trade's cash flow ground to a halt.

1:08:27 > 1:08:31By March 1991, two-thirds of the staff had been axed,

1:08:31 > 1:08:33the administrators were called in

1:08:33 > 1:08:35and Rough Trade's assets were frozen.

1:08:37 > 1:08:39I probably very nearly went under.

1:08:39 > 1:08:43Because the pressure of it was really awful, day-to-day,

1:08:43 > 1:08:45the responsibility.

1:08:45 > 1:08:47It was a very, very difficult time.

1:08:47 > 1:08:50A very black time and very hard time

1:08:50 > 1:08:53and I feel grateful to still be here today really.

1:08:55 > 1:08:57But it taught me a lot.

1:09:00 > 1:09:04The company that sold its first record in February 1976

1:09:04 > 1:09:08ceased trading on June 1st 1991.

1:09:10 > 1:09:13Its demise marked the end of an era -

1:09:13 > 1:09:1615 years in which a bunch of idealistic hippies and punks

1:09:16 > 1:09:20had written the rule book for the production and distribution

1:09:20 > 1:09:22of independent music.

1:09:24 > 1:09:27# Last night I dreamt

1:09:30 > 1:09:34# That somebody loved me... #

1:09:36 > 1:09:39The end of the '70s, beginning of the '80s, when we all started,

1:09:39 > 1:09:42nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.

1:09:42 > 1:09:45We didn't know how to deal with selling records overseas.

1:09:45 > 1:09:49We didn't know that much about distribution, copyright, anything.

1:09:49 > 1:09:53By the end of the '80s, people like Rough Trade, Factory, KLF,

1:09:53 > 1:09:57Beggars had had big worldwide success with their artists,

1:09:57 > 1:10:00not even just in the UK but worldwide.

1:10:00 > 1:10:01And were very happy to share

1:10:01 > 1:10:04any information they could with people who wanted it.

1:10:04 > 1:10:08All the myths had been busted by that point.

1:10:08 > 1:10:12Actually, the irony is that it was probably one of the most successful

1:10:12 > 1:10:15periods of independent music, ever,

1:10:15 > 1:10:18in Britain at the point at which Rough Trade went bust.

1:10:21 > 1:10:23At their peak in the '80s,

1:10:23 > 1:10:26independent labels commanded a 40 per cent share

1:10:26 > 1:10:28of the record market.

1:10:28 > 1:10:30Major record companies had begun setting up

1:10:30 > 1:10:33their own in-house boutique labels,

1:10:33 > 1:10:36branding them as apparently "independent",

1:10:36 > 1:10:40and signing up indie bands who were now seen as mainstream artists,

1:10:40 > 1:10:44releasing music once viewed as marginal and alternative.

1:10:49 > 1:10:52Geoff Travis, Rough Trade and their independent allies

1:10:52 > 1:10:56had radically reshaped the musical landscape.

1:10:57 > 1:11:00Although the company had been dismantled,

1:11:00 > 1:11:03its assets, including the name itself, stripped down and sold off,

1:11:03 > 1:11:07the Rough Trade story was not over yet.

1:11:21 > 1:11:25In 1991, Geoff Travis moved into an office

1:11:25 > 1:11:27about half a mile from the original Rough Trade shop

1:11:27 > 1:11:31with his new business partner, Jeannette Lee.

1:11:31 > 1:11:35They would go on to revive and re-invent Rough Trade.

1:11:35 > 1:11:41The formula with Geoff and myself is really quite simple.

1:11:41 > 1:11:43If we get really excited about something,

1:11:43 > 1:11:46we just totally go for it.

1:11:46 > 1:11:51In the '80s Jeannette Lee had been part of Public Image Ltd,

1:11:51 > 1:11:55the band formed by John Lydon after the demise of The Sex Pistols.

1:11:55 > 1:11:58She had also worked with Geoff Travis at Rough Trade

1:11:58 > 1:12:01for several years prior to the company's collapse.

1:12:01 > 1:12:05Now they set to work on a number of new musical projects.

1:12:05 > 1:12:09And one day in 1993 they met a troubled musician

1:12:09 > 1:12:12who would draw them into the world of artist management.

1:12:15 > 1:12:18We'd kind of got ourselves into a bit of a mess.

1:12:18 > 1:12:20We had the remnants of an old record deal

1:12:20 > 1:12:23with an unscrupulous independent label.

1:12:23 > 1:12:25Island Records wanted to sign us,

1:12:25 > 1:12:29but once they heard about all these complications and all this stuff,

1:12:29 > 1:12:32they wouldn't come near us, wouldn't touch us with a barge pole.

1:12:32 > 1:12:36A friend said, "Why don't you go and talk to Geoff Travis?"

1:12:39 > 1:12:43He sat in this office and he told us his sorry tale.

1:12:43 > 1:12:45We liked him and were very excited by it.

1:12:45 > 1:12:49So we took on the task of managing them

1:12:49 > 1:12:52and we spent a lot of time

1:12:52 > 1:12:54disentangling the legal mess they were in

1:12:54 > 1:12:59and effecting the sign to Island, and it all worked out.

1:13:01 > 1:13:04Single-handedly, really, Rough Trade, Geoff and Jeannette

1:13:04 > 1:13:08gave me back some kind of faith in the music industry.

1:13:08 > 1:13:11Up to then I just thought, "It's a bunch of fucking crooks."

1:13:11 > 1:13:14# She came from Greece She had a thirst for knowledge

1:13:14 > 1:13:17# She studied sculpture at St Martin's College

1:13:17 > 1:13:18# That's where I

1:13:21 > 1:13:25# Caught her eye... #

1:13:25 > 1:13:29Geoff and Jeannette had become an artist management team.

1:13:29 > 1:13:32And, with Pulp signed to Island Records, they began to apply

1:13:32 > 1:13:38their independent ethic to the world of major-label pop stardom.

1:13:38 > 1:13:39# She said

1:13:39 > 1:13:43# I wanna live like common people I wanna do... #

1:13:43 > 1:13:46There was this thing in record companies,

1:13:46 > 1:13:47maybe to justify their jobs,

1:13:47 > 1:13:49they were always coming up with strategies

1:13:49 > 1:13:54of how you got a good chart position or how you sustained

1:13:54 > 1:13:57your chart position, like that spray you spray on your cock

1:13:57 > 1:13:58to keep it hard.

1:13:58 > 1:14:01And at the time when Common People was due to come out,

1:14:01 > 1:14:04the big thing was format - split the format.

1:14:04 > 1:14:07One CD comes out week one.

1:14:07 > 1:14:10Week two, the other CD comes out.

1:14:10 > 1:14:11You don't go in as high,

1:14:11 > 1:14:14but you sustain and that's what's important.

1:14:14 > 1:14:16# ..Live like common people... #

1:14:16 > 1:14:20We'd waited over a decade to have a chance at some kind of pop stardom

1:14:20 > 1:14:23and we said, "We're not really interested in sustaining.

1:14:23 > 1:14:27"We just want to go in, full force.

1:14:27 > 1:14:30"And if it fucks off the next week, fair enough, whatever."

1:14:30 > 1:14:33# She just smiled and held my hand... #

1:14:35 > 1:14:37If we'd been managed by anybody else,

1:14:37 > 1:14:40I'm sure that wouldn't have happened,

1:14:40 > 1:14:44but they backed us with that and we managed to get it through.

1:14:44 > 1:14:47It was our finest hour. We went in the charts at number two.

1:14:47 > 1:14:51# You'll never live like common people... #

1:14:51 > 1:14:56From that point on is where Pulp's success story came from really.

1:14:56 > 1:15:00# You'll never watch your life slide out of view... #

1:15:00 > 1:15:04Beginning with Common People in 1995,

1:15:04 > 1:15:08Pulp enjoyed a string of five consecutive Top Ten singles.

1:15:08 > 1:15:12For Geoff and Jeannette, even after the achievements of The Smiths,

1:15:12 > 1:15:15this was a new level of mainstream success.

1:15:17 > 1:15:21In managing Pulp, we had to interact with a big major.

1:15:21 > 1:15:24So we learnt how to play the game in a different way

1:15:24 > 1:15:28and interact with people that were more mainstream

1:15:28 > 1:15:30and make it successful.

1:15:30 > 1:15:32I think we learnt a lot actually.

1:15:32 > 1:15:36With Pulp, Geoff and Jeannette had a series of hit records.

1:15:36 > 1:15:41What they didn't have was a record label, or even the Rough Trade name,

1:15:41 > 1:15:43which had been sold along with the other assets

1:15:43 > 1:15:45when the company folded.

1:15:47 > 1:15:52But in 2001, at a party to celebrate the 25th anniversary

1:15:52 > 1:15:53of the Rough Trade shop,

1:15:53 > 1:15:57Geoff and Jeannette decided to bring Rough Trade Records back to life.

1:16:03 > 1:16:09I think probably Geoff clicked into some kind of gear again that night.

1:16:09 > 1:16:11He just thought, "This is worth doing again."

1:16:13 > 1:16:15Everybody kept saying,

1:16:15 > 1:16:17"Rough Trade it's a wonderful thing, a great thing."

1:16:17 > 1:16:19It made us realise,

1:16:19 > 1:16:23it dawned on us that it meant a lot to other people.

1:16:23 > 1:16:27We decided that we would make another attempt

1:16:27 > 1:16:28to buy the name back.

1:16:28 > 1:16:33So we started, and the first thing we did was sign The Strokes.

1:16:33 > 1:16:36MUSIC: "Last Nite" by The Strokes

1:16:37 > 1:16:43The timing was perfect. By sheer coincidence, a few months earlier,

1:16:43 > 1:16:46Geoff Travis had received a tape that would lead to New York

1:16:46 > 1:16:50and quite possibly the best unsigned band on the planet.

1:16:51 > 1:16:58# Last night she said Oh baby don't feel so down

1:16:58 > 1:17:00# See it turned me off... #

1:17:00 > 1:17:03They were playing around the New York club circuit.

1:17:03 > 1:17:05They hadn't really played outside New York.

1:17:06 > 1:17:09I was sending out their demo

1:17:09 > 1:17:12to everybody just to try to get them gigs or some attention or some love.

1:17:12 > 1:17:15Geoff comes in earlier than me.

1:17:15 > 1:17:17OK, let's admit it.

1:17:18 > 1:17:21I came in one morning and he was blasting out some music

1:17:21 > 1:17:25and called me straight in to his office and said, "Listen to this!"

1:17:25 > 1:17:27It was really exciting.

1:17:32 > 1:17:36I posted it out and two days later, I walked in to work at 10am

1:17:36 > 1:17:38and Geoff rings up,

1:17:38 > 1:17:40"We'd like to put this out."

1:17:40 > 1:17:42They didn't believe us or take us very seriously,

1:17:42 > 1:17:45so we decided to go to New York to meet them.

1:17:45 > 1:17:49# Last night she said

1:17:49 > 1:17:52# Oh my baby don't feel so down... #

1:17:52 > 1:17:55In September 2000, Geoff and Jeannette

1:17:55 > 1:17:57arrived at an out-of-town bar to see the band

1:17:57 > 1:18:02that would kick-start Rough Trade's future - The Strokes.

1:18:02 > 1:18:06We were in a dump in New Jersey and we were like,

1:18:06 > 1:18:09"Man, this is the place where we're gonna play for a label?"

1:18:09 > 1:18:12There's no-one there, just a few friends and a few strangers.

1:18:12 > 1:18:14There was nobody there.

1:18:14 > 1:18:19Just a bunch of people who had gone out on a Saturday night for a drink.

1:18:20 > 1:18:26# Last night she said Oh baby don't feel so down... #

1:18:26 > 1:18:29We were both just completely dumbstruck at how...

1:18:29 > 1:18:33absolutely perfectly formed and amazing they were.

1:18:33 > 1:18:36It was just so exciting.

1:18:36 > 1:18:38I got a feeling of exhilaration watching them

1:18:38 > 1:18:41that I hadn't had since punk days.

1:18:41 > 1:18:46We were just dumbstruck. We just looked at each other and were, like,

1:18:46 > 1:18:48"We've got to make this happen."

1:18:52 > 1:18:54Well, it's time for a brand new band from America

1:18:54 > 1:18:58and they are tipped for great things. We agree.

1:18:58 > 1:18:59These are The Strokes!

1:19:01 > 1:19:06Making it happen meant putting out an EP, bringing the band to England

1:19:06 > 1:19:08and employing all of the marketing skills

1:19:08 > 1:19:10they'd learned while working with Pulp

1:19:10 > 1:19:13to show The Strokes what Rough Trade was capable of.

1:19:14 > 1:19:19The press and everything just lit fire with it. It was really wild.

1:19:22 > 1:19:25We marketed The Strokes in a way

1:19:25 > 1:19:28we hadn't marketed anyone else really to that point.

1:19:28 > 1:19:31We realised that this was the time that we

1:19:31 > 1:19:34had to do all that stuff that hadn't happened in the past.

1:19:34 > 1:19:39# New York City cops New York City cops... #

1:19:39 > 1:19:43Rough Trade had turned The Strokes from an anonymous bar band

1:19:43 > 1:19:44into the hottest property of the year.

1:19:44 > 1:19:48What they hadn't done was ask them to sign a record contract.

1:19:48 > 1:19:51# ..they ain't too smart... #

1:19:52 > 1:19:57We found ourselves in a situation where we loved this band,

1:19:57 > 1:20:01we really wanted to work with them, but now everybody knows about them,

1:20:01 > 1:20:04and everybody wants to sign them and everybody's got more money than us.

1:20:04 > 1:20:06We didn't have to sign with them.

1:20:06 > 1:20:09Everything sparked with them and all the labels came to the table

1:20:09 > 1:20:11and were chasing the band, which was nice.

1:20:11 > 1:20:13We could have went with anyone.

1:20:13 > 1:20:15# ..One day we're gonna leave this town... #

1:20:15 > 1:20:18You could say, from a business point of view,

1:20:18 > 1:20:23the naive mistake is to bring them over to England, pay for a tour,

1:20:23 > 1:20:26without having any futures with them. That's a crazy thing to do.

1:20:26 > 1:20:29But that's the philosophy of, well, you don't know us,

1:20:29 > 1:20:31we're gonna show you who we are.

1:20:31 > 1:20:33Not many people do that.

1:20:34 > 1:20:38It is the old, "These people are really stupid.

1:20:38 > 1:20:40"They don't know how to run a business"

1:20:40 > 1:20:43or it sells and that's what makes them different.

1:20:43 > 1:20:47Geoff and Jeannette were building a leaner version of Rough Trade,

1:20:47 > 1:20:49whose independent reputation,

1:20:49 > 1:20:51combined with an uncharacteristically

1:20:51 > 1:20:56slick marketing operation, would prove a winning formula.

1:20:57 > 1:21:01The Strokes became the label's biggest signing since The Smiths,

1:21:01 > 1:21:04revitalising an indie guitar band scene,

1:21:04 > 1:21:07which after the Brit Pop explosion of the nineties,

1:21:07 > 1:21:09had become stale and derivative.

1:21:13 > 1:21:20# ..you gave me your address so I was so bold... #

1:21:20 > 1:21:23Five months after releasing The Strokes' first album,

1:21:23 > 1:21:28Rough Trade signed The Libertines, the edgiest English equivalent

1:21:28 > 1:21:31to their New York label mates, and began to build a diverse

1:21:31 > 1:21:35artists' roster based on Geoff and Jeannette's musical tastes.

1:21:46 > 1:21:50The only thing that we really have is our own response to the music,

1:21:50 > 1:21:53and to know that we think it's really special, it moves us.

1:21:53 > 1:21:56And that is a rare thing. And that's it.

1:21:57 > 1:22:02Records by The Libertines, British Sea Power, Belle & Sebastian,

1:22:02 > 1:22:05Arcade Fire and Antony & The Johnsons

1:22:05 > 1:22:08helped to re-establish Rough Trade's reputation

1:22:08 > 1:22:12as an important independent label and even brought them the odd award.

1:22:19 > 1:22:21But the biggest prize of all

1:22:21 > 1:22:23would come from their artist management arm.

1:22:23 > 1:22:26MUSIC: "Warwick Avenue" by Duffy

1:22:41 > 1:22:43Rough Trade, Geoff and Jeannette,

1:22:43 > 1:22:46have been managing Duffy for four years.

1:22:46 > 1:22:49When they met, she was a musical novice with a great voice,

1:22:49 > 1:22:53but seemed an unlikely addition to the Rough Trade roster.

1:22:53 > 1:22:57I'm not gonna lie to you and pretend I was wise when it came to music.

1:22:57 > 1:22:59I'm still not.

1:22:59 > 1:23:03I only discovered Nick Cave about ten minutes ago downstairs. Massive!

1:23:03 > 1:23:05Massive! This happens to me all the time.

1:23:05 > 1:23:09I come in, Joy Division's playing, I fall in love with it...

1:23:09 > 1:23:12I came into this hub of credibility

1:23:12 > 1:23:15and didn't have a clue about anything.

1:23:15 > 1:23:19And I just thought, I've never been anywhere so exciting in all my life.

1:23:19 > 1:23:20Geoff and I both met her.

1:23:20 > 1:23:24I made a real connection with her, I thought she had a great voice

1:23:24 > 1:23:26and I really liked her as a character.

1:23:26 > 1:23:31And I felt that she had something really special that was really worth

1:23:31 > 1:23:36working with, but at that time, it wasn't quite right for me.

1:23:42 > 1:23:44They kindly put me on a development deal.

1:23:44 > 1:23:47They said, "We'll look after you for a little while,

1:23:47 > 1:23:48"and see what you wanna do.

1:23:48 > 1:23:51"No pressure, we're not going to make you do anything.

1:23:51 > 1:23:53"We're not gonna tell you what we wanted to be.

1:23:53 > 1:23:57"We'll give you a little bit of time and a little bit of space,

1:23:57 > 1:23:59"to find out who you are as an artist."

1:24:01 > 1:24:04That meant a fully funded apprenticeship for Duffy,

1:24:04 > 1:24:08but no record releases, and no income for Rough Trade -

1:24:08 > 1:24:13yet another alternative approach to music industry convention.

1:24:13 > 1:24:16It was a risk. And it paid off.

1:24:16 > 1:24:18It coincided completely with the music industry

1:24:18 > 1:24:21being completely wrecked by Pop Idol and X-Factor

1:24:21 > 1:24:25and all that kind of complete rubbish...

1:24:25 > 1:24:28that completely patronises all the people out there who have

1:24:28 > 1:24:33got technical ability and some kind of sense of humanity and soul

1:24:33 > 1:24:37and aren't being given an opportunity to nurture it and create music,

1:24:37 > 1:24:41because it's being nurtured into just cans of beans to put on a shelf.

1:24:41 > 1:24:43MUSIC: "Mercy" by Duffy

1:24:46 > 1:24:53She wasn't manipulated or cultivated like a Pop Idol person.

1:24:53 > 1:24:58No-one held her hand and took her to a writing session and said to her,

1:24:58 > 1:25:00"Write a song in the style of this."

1:25:00 > 1:25:04She was just given time to develop.

1:25:04 > 1:25:08What fascinates me about it is that what would happen if you took

1:25:08 > 1:25:12somebody who could've been put into the situation, and could have

1:25:12 > 1:25:15ended up a cabaret star, and was from a perfectly normal background

1:25:15 > 1:25:17without a Rough Trade record collection,

1:25:17 > 1:25:20but just had a pure heart and a pure enthusiasm

1:25:20 > 1:25:24and tried to nurture something great out of it.

1:25:24 > 1:25:28# You got me begging you for mercy

1:25:28 > 1:25:32# Why won't you release me?

1:25:32 > 1:25:35# You got me begging you for mercy

1:25:35 > 1:25:36# Why won't you... #

1:25:36 > 1:25:39What happened was that after nearly four years of development for Duffy,

1:25:39 > 1:25:43and over thirty years of waiting for Rough Trade,

1:25:43 > 1:25:48they were rewarded with their first number one single.

1:25:51 > 1:25:55It is a dream to have something that's great that is also popular.

1:25:55 > 1:25:58It was a great moment. Yeah.

1:26:08 > 1:26:1130 years since Rough Trade released its first single,

1:26:11 > 1:26:15it continues to attract a range of like-minded musicians

1:26:15 > 1:26:17inspired by its past,

1:26:17 > 1:26:22while Geoff and Jeannette focus firmly on its future.

1:26:22 > 1:26:27# Tonight I wanna celebrate with you... #

1:26:27 > 1:26:29This happens to be Rough Trade's 30th anniversary.

1:26:29 > 1:26:35They were started in 1978, and 1978 is the year that our drummer,

1:26:35 > 1:26:37Patrick Callaghan, and myself were born.

1:26:37 > 1:26:42I believe that since the beginning of both of our lives,

1:26:42 > 1:26:47we've been coming to meet at this moment in time.

1:26:47 > 1:26:52# Let him go let him go let him go from me...#

1:26:52 > 1:26:54There are bad labels and there are OK labels

1:26:54 > 1:26:56and there are great labels,

1:26:56 > 1:27:00and it was quite quickly evident which was which.

1:27:00 > 1:27:08# There's a link between the stars I Think... #

1:27:08 > 1:27:11The most exciting thing for me was when we signed, because I didn't

1:27:11 > 1:27:15really realise that Jeanette was, like, part owner of Rough Trade.

1:27:15 > 1:27:19I was kinda like, are you Jeanette Lee that was in Public Image Ltd?

1:27:19 > 1:27:22She said, "I am indeed" and she poured me a glass of champagne.

1:27:22 > 1:27:26And that was exciting. Rather than meeting someone in a suit,

1:27:26 > 1:27:29you're meeting a person that played in Public Image Ltd.

1:27:29 > 1:27:32And the guy who was in the room when they made the Raincoats album.

1:27:32 > 1:27:36It's kind of a flattering that anybody's interested in the past

1:27:36 > 1:27:38and what used to happen.

1:27:38 > 1:27:41But it's not really much concern to us.

1:27:41 > 1:27:44The important thing is to live in the present, the moment.

1:27:44 > 1:27:48The only thing that's important is what happens now, what happens next.

1:27:48 > 1:27:53And, you know, we've got in the pipeline so many good things

1:27:53 > 1:27:56which you ultimately will be the judge of, when they come out.

1:27:58 > 1:28:00Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd

1:28:00 > 1:28:02E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk