0:00:02 > 0:00:05I came top in English for two years. They never thought it was me.
0:00:05 > 0:00:08All the other Smiths got congratulated, except me.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11I like that. It's good being a Smith sometimes.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14You get away with murder, you know?
0:00:14 > 0:00:18This programme contains strong language.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21# We are the Fall We were spinning, we were stepping
0:00:21 > 0:00:26# Cop out, cop out As if from heaven
0:00:26 > 0:00:30# The difference between you and us Is that we have brains
0:00:30 > 0:00:35# Cos we're Northern white crap But we talk back. #
0:00:35 > 0:00:39How you doing? All right?
0:00:39 > 0:00:44# Bang fucking bang The mighty Fall. #
0:00:45 > 0:00:50RADIO: ..Radio 1 now with John Peel.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57Time for me to warn you that it is possible that in the next hour and 55 minutes or so,
0:00:57 > 0:01:01you may hear rough language or be introduced to concepts you find unwholesome.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04If this is a possibility, listen to something else.
0:01:08 > 0:01:13As regular listeners know, there are few words finer than, "Tonight, a new session from The Fall."
0:01:13 > 0:01:17We think it's the 24th, but we're not absolutely certain about it.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Before I play the first track, an email from Chris Goodhead -
0:01:20 > 0:01:24"A quick message to say I've had a bloody awful week.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28"Nevertheless, I'm excited about another mighty Fall session.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31"Been to some recent shows - there's a great song about Harold Shipman.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35"They played Walk Like A Man. The bass player is now the guitarist.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38"All business as usual! Chaos, but good chaos."
0:01:38 > 0:01:42- What you doing now? - Just trying to tune...
0:01:42 > 0:01:46They don't need tuning up. You just...fucking play 'em, innit?
0:01:46 > 0:01:48# Shout! #
0:01:51 > 0:01:55When they start saying they like The Fall, it's usually they've run out of ideas.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58I remember Wet Wet Wet saying that -
0:01:58 > 0:02:00"We're doing our own stuff, a bit like The Fall."
0:02:00 > 0:02:03It's like, "Shut the fuck up!"
0:02:03 > 0:02:04# I'm totally wired. #
0:02:04 > 0:02:08No-one exemplifies attitude more than Mark E Smith.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11He is attitude personified.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15# Yeah, yeah, industrial estate. #
0:02:15 > 0:02:16# I hear you Telephone Thing. #
0:02:16 > 0:02:22Mark's an inspirational character and also an awkward get, y'know?
0:02:22 > 0:02:26# A green eyed loco-man #
0:02:26 > 0:02:32His behaviour's become more mystifying and erratic since I left.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36People do use the word "genius" a lot, but I do think he's a genius.
0:02:36 > 0:02:41I think he's got talent, charisma, like it or not. He's not a nice guy.
0:02:41 > 0:02:42# He reads books... #
0:02:43 > 0:02:45We don't know anything about him, as fans.
0:02:45 > 0:02:50All we know is this absolutely distinct stage persona and voice.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56You can't compare other bands - nobody really sounds like The Fall.
0:02:56 > 0:03:02When bands do sound like the Fall, you go, "You're trying to rip off The Fall. Fuck off!"
0:03:07 > 0:03:12With The Fall you can never be absolutely certain what you're gonna get.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17Sometimes it may not be what you want, but it's still...
0:03:17 > 0:03:19They're The Fall, that's all you need.
0:03:19 > 0:03:25# I know, I know, I know I know, I know #
0:03:31 > 0:03:36..hopefully this will brighten up your evening for you a bit, from The Fall - Clasp Hands.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39Needs summat at the end, so just go da, da, da, da.
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Then sad, y'know. Just be yourselves.
0:03:58 > 0:04:04# All here Clasp your hands. #
0:04:14 > 0:04:15My dad's sort of attitude was,
0:04:15 > 0:04:20"You follow me into the business y'know, or go into the army,
0:04:20 > 0:04:24"otherwise you're a waste of bloody time", innit?
0:04:26 > 0:04:30I used to work for my dad in the school holidays...summer holidays.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34For about ten years, from when I was six till I was about 15,
0:04:34 > 0:04:37I worked for my Dad every bloody school holiday.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41I used to think he was a right bastard, but in a way it's good, y'know?
0:04:44 > 0:04:48He did virtually chuck me out the house, which...I liked that.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53Cos nowadays they can't get rid of the lads, can they?
0:04:53 > 0:04:56They stay at home till about 35, don't they? Must be awful, that.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Must be hard - I couldn't do that. I couldn't bring up any kids.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05It's hard with the bloody group. That's enough for me!
0:05:09 > 0:05:15I formed me group, cos I wanted to write music and...
0:05:15 > 0:05:20I was laid off the docks and all this shit, y'know?
0:05:20 > 0:05:23So it was a way of earning money at the start.
0:05:24 > 0:05:29First group started just as three people.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31Friel,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Bramah,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36Baines.
0:05:36 > 0:05:42They realised their true mission was to be in The Fall.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45ELECTRIC GUITAR RIFF
0:05:47 > 0:05:50We wasn't taken seriously in them days.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53It's a bit like now, you think you've gotta have a million quid
0:05:53 > 0:05:56before you start a group. It was a bit like that then.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00Talking '76.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06I was writing a lot, so it started as like a sort of poetry reading,
0:06:06 > 0:06:10pissing around, y'know what I mean?
0:06:10 > 0:06:16We used to meet up and hang out at my flat on Kingswood in Prestwich,
0:06:16 > 0:06:17and listen to music.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23We were into punk before punk.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28We were into the garage groups, like the early '60s groups, y'know.
0:06:30 > 0:06:35In 1974-75, you could like music like Iggy Pop, avant-garde jazz
0:06:35 > 0:06:38and electronic German music, all sorts of strange things.
0:06:38 > 0:06:40And that was in the air, anyway.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44People were putting bands together that had those weird influences.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46It just didn't have a focus, a name.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49It didn't have a sense it could be anything other than local.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53# I am an Anti-Christ... #
0:06:53 > 0:06:57The Sex Pistols coming up those two times completely shattered all that
0:06:57 > 0:07:01and made everything intimate and close and do-able.
0:07:01 > 0:07:07Those gigs galvanised Manchester musicians or wannabe musicians.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11# Anarchy! #
0:07:11 > 0:07:14People came out of the woodwork.
0:07:14 > 0:07:18Closet Stooges fans, rabid Captain Beefheart fans
0:07:18 > 0:07:20began to touch base with one another,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23and start making their own groups.
0:07:23 > 0:07:28In hindsight, they turned out to be Joy Division,
0:07:28 > 0:07:30The Fall, Morrissey.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33They turned out to be all sorts of interesting Manchester groups
0:07:33 > 0:07:36that didn't think they had it in them to be musicians, to be a group.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42# Anarchy! #
0:07:42 > 0:07:48Everybody went to the gig. But I mean, I did, so fucking what?
0:07:48 > 0:07:49# Psycho, psycho. #
0:07:49 > 0:07:53Well, we got involved in this North West Arts thing.
0:07:53 > 0:08:00It was like a musician's collective. It was like brass bands and...
0:08:00 > 0:08:04bird noises - there was a feller, did symphonies out of bird noises.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07Anybody could get up and do a performance.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10So, it really suited what The Fall were about at that time.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13We thought we'd just do what we were doing in the bedroom,
0:08:13 > 0:08:17like reading out poetry over a bass and a guitar.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19We got a drummer and it kicked off, y'know?
0:08:23 > 0:08:28After The Sex Pistols' gig, lots of strange things happened in the basement clubs in Manchester.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Obviously, The Buzzcocks had started up
0:08:31 > 0:08:35and if you went to see Buzzcocks, there would be interesting support groups.
0:08:35 > 0:08:41# Spitting on the streets Numb heads and feet... #
0:08:41 > 0:08:47That was the big break, Richard Boon offering us support to The Buzzcocks.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49That's when we started doing regular gigs.
0:08:49 > 0:08:55# ..And the Psycho Mafia I'm talking about love... #
0:08:55 > 0:08:57They were startling.
0:08:57 > 0:09:03They had the thrift-store styling, totally anti-fashion,
0:09:03 > 0:09:07with the threadbare sweaters and the awful shirts.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10They were totally a garage band and they obviously had it.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14GUITAR STRUMMING
0:09:14 > 0:09:18Incredibly exciting if you knew Iggy Pop, Can and Captain Beefheart,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20cos it seemed to have the same thing going on -
0:09:20 > 0:09:26this crunching together of strange rhythms and odd shafts of sound,
0:09:26 > 0:09:32sort of cutting against it like bits of glass and a really peculiar guy at the front, ranting away.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35# ..I used to believe everything I read
0:09:35 > 0:09:38# But that's all changed and now I'm stepping out... #
0:09:38 > 0:09:40Once Spiral Scratch had been released
0:09:40 > 0:09:44and we'd been working with The Fall on a live, occasional basis,
0:09:44 > 0:09:50I thought it was important that their work was recorded too.
0:09:50 > 0:09:55Well, actually, you gotta say this, The Buzzcocks paid for our first recording.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57God bless 'em.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00I would have loved to have put it out myself,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04but things around Buzzcocks got commercially chaotic
0:10:04 > 0:10:08and I was distracted, so I gave them the tapes.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16Good evening! Welcome to What's On for World Cup Plus.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19I think Richard must have mentioned the band,
0:10:19 > 0:10:23and I certainly remember getting a copy of Bingo Master's Breakout,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26thinking this sounds bloody weird, like part of the explosion
0:10:26 > 0:10:34and I remember taking a film crew up to a basement in a house in North Manchester, in Prestwich.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36# Numb heads and feet
0:10:36 > 0:10:39# Got nowhere to go
0:10:39 > 0:10:41# Won't let us in the shows
0:10:41 > 0:10:44# We talk about love
0:10:44 > 0:10:46# And the Psycho-Mafia
0:10:46 > 0:10:49# I'm talking 'bout love... #
0:10:51 > 0:10:55Our music is offensive to a lot of people and coming from the North,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59you've got this inoffensive cap-touching attitude,
0:10:59 > 0:11:01which we're trying to break out of.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04I always think it was more attitude than music.
0:11:04 > 0:11:09I think that's what The Fall brought to Manchester.
0:11:09 > 0:11:14Again they brought this great oppositional thing, which is...
0:11:14 > 0:11:17They loathed wankers like me from South Manchester,
0:11:17 > 0:11:20and Mark E epitomised that.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26- Is it more than just the songs you're playing? - It is more than the songs,
0:11:26 > 0:11:27cos the music is secondary really.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31The music scene does not communicate to people.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33We try to, that's where we fall down.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37# Well you started here to earn your pay
0:11:37 > 0:11:39# Yah, yah Industrial estate
0:11:39 > 0:11:42# Clean neck and ears on your first day
0:11:42 > 0:11:45# Yah, yah Industrial estate... #
0:11:45 > 0:11:48To this day, I'm not quite sure whether I like The Fall's music.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50But I like The Fall.
0:11:50 > 0:11:56I mean, just a song called Yah Yah Industrial Estate - fantastic!
0:11:56 > 0:12:03Originally, I thought...and I think everybody else would agree with this,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06we were just all equal members of a band.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10- Do you not get tired of being poor, though, lads?- Dead tired.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12To not make a living out of it is...
0:12:12 > 0:12:16- And you don't make a living out of it, do you?- No.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19ALL LAUGH
0:12:19 > 0:12:20Please give us some money(!)
0:12:20 > 0:12:29I think as The Fall evolved, it emerged as Mark, as very definitely, the voice of The Fall.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32It was a solo act, but it needed everybody around him.
0:12:32 > 0:12:37So it had a weird dynamic - that he couldn't have done it on his own.
0:12:37 > 0:12:45# Round, round Tapping feet to formless sound. #
0:12:45 > 0:12:48Give me your name, then. Well, give me your name, then.
0:12:48 > 0:12:54I met Kay through a friend. She worked at Prestwich hospital,
0:12:54 > 0:12:58the same time that I did and when she split up with her partner,
0:12:58 > 0:13:00she came to live with me.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02At that time, me and Mark were drifting apart -
0:13:02 > 0:13:04we were splitting up, really.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11And...they got together and she became The Fall's manager.
0:13:11 > 0:13:18What do you mean you want money? You're pirating my bloody stuff, Tony. What you talking about?
0:13:18 > 0:13:20I've paid for your equipment!
0:13:20 > 0:13:22Kay was the tough, abrasive one.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24She was the boss then.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27"Kay Carroll. Hello, love. Hello, lovey."
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Kay would get very drunk, and was even tougher than Mark
0:13:30 > 0:13:33and would jump on you, attack you and go on about the money,
0:13:33 > 0:13:38or generally act in a ridiculous way and one could be quite fond of her,
0:13:38 > 0:13:40but I was quite scared of Kay Carroll,
0:13:40 > 0:13:42in a way I've never been scared of Mark.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45He's being an arsehole and he's calling me, y'know what I mean?
0:13:45 > 0:13:51The idea of a manager seemed to be against the original ethos of The Fall, so that was a bit problematic.
0:13:51 > 0:13:55And Tony left. I left.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59And then a whole new Fall emerged.
0:13:59 > 0:14:04# Right Noise
0:14:04 > 0:14:06# We're gonna get really speedy. #
0:14:06 > 0:14:09Finally, Bingo Master's Break-Out was released,
0:14:09 > 0:14:13much later than anybody had intended.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17But there was a certain amount of redemption involved.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21Some critics got where The Fall were coming from.
0:14:21 > 0:14:28Well, it was my producer, John Walters, who first heard them
0:14:28 > 0:14:33and I think they were a support band at a gig in Croydon,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36and Walters heard them at that.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38And wrote a letter.
0:14:38 > 0:14:44John Walters wrote me a letter and said, "You are the worst group I've ever seen...
0:14:44 > 0:14:46"in the history of mankind."
0:14:46 > 0:14:50He was good like that, John Walters. Did you ever meet him?
0:14:50 > 0:14:52He was fucking fantastic.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56He said "You were the worst, tuneless rubbish I've ever heard.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59"Even worse than Siouxsie and the Banshees."
0:14:59 > 0:15:04This is what he wrote, "You're even worse than Siouxsie and the Banshees."
0:15:04 > 0:15:07I didn't believe it was possible, y'know what I mean?
0:15:07 > 0:15:13Ha ha ha! He's a gem. What a gem!
0:15:13 > 0:15:17He said, "Please do a session." Ha ha!
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Can you get 'em to start again, Geoff?
0:15:22 > 0:15:24- Pardon?- Can you get 'em to start again?
0:15:24 > 0:15:26- Start over?- Eh?
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I thought it was really good, this.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31- They get going...- They're really having a really good groove.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45- Nah! Do it again, I say. - Yeah?- Let me have a word.
0:15:45 > 0:15:50Can we do it again, kids, with a bit of...? Hit it a bit harder.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53Rhythm section and the keyboards.
0:15:53 > 0:15:59Steve, you've gotta play a bit harder. You gotta be in tune and you gotta do it on the changes.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01You heard a taster of this earlier on.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05It'll be slightly louder now, I think. The Fall and Blindness.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16# I am losing my feet
0:16:16 > 0:16:20# Everywhere I look I see a blind man
0:16:20 > 0:16:23# I see a blind man. #
0:16:24 > 0:16:27To be realistic, you barely need anything else, do you?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30The 24th session for the programme as far as we know.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34The very first of them was recorded at Maida Vale on 30th of whichever the fifth month is,
0:16:34 > 0:16:36in 1978 and broadcast...
0:16:36 > 0:16:39The Fall were on their way to do a John Peel session
0:16:39 > 0:16:45and the bass player at the time, he'd had a few ups and downs, a guy called Eric Ferret
0:16:45 > 0:16:48and I think the point at which Eric was thrown out of the band
0:16:48 > 0:16:52was he decided he didn't want to come along to a Peel session.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55I was going along to help 'em with the gear and when we got back,
0:16:55 > 0:16:58I got a phone call from Mark asking me if I wanted to join.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02Now, bearing in mind, it was my favourite band, I was happy to be a roadie,
0:17:02 > 0:17:07and I was asked by Mark Smith to join The Fall and I was still 16 years old,
0:17:07 > 0:17:10and I didn't have to think long and hard before saying yes.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14Like, my granddad used to stand outside prisons and that,
0:17:14 > 0:17:18and then when they were released, say, "You work for me!" Ha ha!
0:17:18 > 0:17:20He's a bit like me.
0:17:22 > 0:17:27You know what I mean? "Oh, you play bass? Right, you're in."
0:17:27 > 0:17:31Don't have auditions or anything. Usually comes off right, actually, touch wood.
0:17:36 > 0:17:42I remember once we went to record Live At The Witch Trials - we ended up recording the album in a day.
0:17:42 > 0:17:46So, we were wandering around London, particularly Martin, Karl and I,
0:17:46 > 0:17:49and I remember them saying to me, "You're Mark's puppet, aren't you?"
0:17:49 > 0:17:50And I'm like, "What?"
0:17:50 > 0:17:54They're saying, "You'll do anything that he tells you, that's why he got you in."
0:17:54 > 0:17:59"We wanted our mate in." I'm going, "Oh, I'm sorry, but what can I do?"
0:17:59 > 0:18:04I think they were the seeds of the split in the band and it becoming
0:18:04 > 0:18:07not a load of mates, all pulling together and working together,
0:18:07 > 0:18:12but Mark wanting to foist his own intentions on everybody else.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15There's a matter of control, of direction, where they were going,
0:18:15 > 0:18:20and Mark had a fixed idea of how he wanted it to be portrayed.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22A year after I joined, Steve and Craig joined.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25And again, we were all in the same situation.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30We were there and happy to be Mark's foils and his backing band, really.
0:18:30 > 0:18:35Whereas Martin had already got disaffected with the whole thing -
0:18:35 > 0:18:39him and Mark being the core and the real creative force behind it.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42Martin had realised he was being sidelined,
0:18:42 > 0:18:44so he just had enough and went.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48It was a drastic old fucking time. I shit my pants.
0:18:48 > 0:18:54Not literally, when... I was scared to death.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58# Frightened... #
0:18:58 > 0:19:02The guys who I'd seen carrying the equipment on to the stage were suddenly playing.
0:19:02 > 0:19:08Cos Steve suddenly went onto bass and Craig Scanlon became a guitarist and Marc moved on to guitar.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12So there was this ever-changing movement of The Fall.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14I don't know how we ended up with them,
0:19:14 > 0:19:18just these really strange people from the other side of Manchester,
0:19:18 > 0:19:21who seemed to be really into the music.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25- Is there anybody there? - AUDIENCE: Yeah!
0:19:25 > 0:19:28Dragnet was like...
0:19:28 > 0:19:32It was three nineteen-year-olds, y'know?
0:19:32 > 0:19:35Not even that, it was like fucking...
0:19:35 > 0:19:39Half the group wasn't even allowed to work, apparently.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41In them days.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43They were too young.
0:19:43 > 0:19:48At the time, we didn't know how young they were, because he would add years to the ages of the group.
0:19:48 > 0:19:53Cos they couldn't play in the pubs they were playing in, cos they were so young.
0:19:53 > 0:20:01I like to get 'em and tutor 'em, as if they were, I suppose, your own son.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05# Is quester psykick dancehall. #
0:20:07 > 0:20:09It's amazing what you can get out of them.
0:20:09 > 0:20:11It is incredible.
0:20:15 > 0:20:22To be honest, it wasn't till about the second or third record,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25or perhaps even the second or third session,
0:20:25 > 0:20:30that I started to think, "Actually, this is really something fairly astonishing."
0:20:30 > 0:20:34# Uh - containers And their drivers
0:20:34 > 0:20:38# Uh - containers And their drivers
0:20:39 > 0:20:43# Containers and their drivers. #
0:20:46 > 0:20:50It fitted in to the John Peel show, because it was made out of the John Peel show.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54It was a soundtrack that was based on listening to the John Peel show -
0:20:54 > 0:20:57the strange sense in the early '70s of listening to a show at night
0:20:57 > 0:21:02that would play things from around the world that were so exotic and strange.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09I first heard The Fall in about 1981 on John Peel.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18You listened to it in bed in the middle of the night,
0:21:18 > 0:21:20and I remember not really liking it.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27I just thought it was annoying and incomprehensible,
0:21:27 > 0:21:31but that itself became fascinating as you get exposed to it.
0:21:40 > 0:21:46It's fascinating - this superficially ugly music and these incredibly well-thought-out words.
0:21:55 > 0:22:01Mark uses language extraordinarily well and in such a way
0:22:01 > 0:22:09that you're perhaps made to think more deeply about something that you may have taken for granted,
0:22:09 > 0:22:16as a poet or a painter would - he just makes you think, "Actually, I never thought of it like that."
0:22:29 > 0:22:33He has an amazing eye for the mundane,
0:22:33 > 0:22:41and at the same time for the complete strangeness and otherworldliness of things.
0:22:49 > 0:22:55They were all caught up together, and seemed to come from some other place.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57Politically, he's neither left nor right.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00He sometimes espouses views you might think were right wing,
0:23:00 > 0:23:04but then he'll come out with something that's extremely radical.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06He's neither one or another.
0:23:06 > 0:23:11He's critical, essentially, of everything and perhaps suspicious of everything as well.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13I don't understand it -
0:23:15 > 0:23:18which I think is the best way to write.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22I'm still like that. I don't know what I'm writing about...
0:23:22 > 0:23:23half the time.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30I don't want to give my secrets away to these fucking idiots on the BBC. You understand that?
0:23:36 > 0:23:41# We are all living leg-ends
0:23:41 > 0:23:46# So close, my brain is imploding
0:23:46 > 0:23:49# But everything is all right
0:23:49 > 0:23:53# I am a rabbit from Germany
0:23:53 > 0:23:56# I was very happy
0:23:56 > 0:24:00# I could frolic around all night
0:24:00 > 0:24:03# By the Leipzig station. #
0:24:03 > 0:24:08Tonight of course, is a night for The Fall and this is What About Us?
0:24:08 > 0:24:12# What about us? Shipman!
0:24:12 > 0:24:15# What about us? Shipman!
0:24:15 > 0:24:18# What about us? #
0:24:18 > 0:24:23I am tempted to say this is possibly the best Fall session we've ever had,
0:24:23 > 0:24:27but I probably say that about all of them. That was called What About Us?
0:24:27 > 0:24:31Well, this is the lecturing part of the concert.
0:24:37 > 0:24:44He likes to have a dominating influence, like a paternalistic influence over you,
0:24:44 > 0:24:48very much like an old Victorian paternalistic boss.
0:24:51 > 0:24:55Most of the time we just got on with it and pretty much did as we were told, didn't we?
0:24:55 > 0:24:58- Yeah. At the beginning, yeah. - At the beginning.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02Gonna fucking put the monitors up for Christ's sake?
0:25:02 > 0:25:06- It were like a matter of death, a Fall gig, wasn't it?- Oh, yeah.
0:25:06 > 0:25:11- It was...- You couldn't be seen to enjoy yourself, could you?
0:25:12 > 0:25:16I've never been in a room that so crackled with malevolence,
0:25:16 > 0:25:20I mean we had our backs to the wall at the far end of the room,
0:25:20 > 0:25:22extraordinarily grateful to have done so.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24There was so much hostility and rancour.
0:25:27 > 0:25:31I remember we did one gig, only a little club, but it was that low,
0:25:31 > 0:25:34we couldn't hear what was going on the other side of the stage.
0:25:34 > 0:25:39I couldn't hear Steve and Craig. They couldn't hear me, so me and Craig swapped sides.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42# Up in a room, There's a cloud of smoke. #
0:25:42 > 0:25:45Will you fucking get it together, instead of showing off.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49We got a right bollocking when we got off.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52"What you doing? Who do you think you are? You're not in a big rock combo.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56"You're not in U2, swapping sides and messing about."
0:25:56 > 0:25:59Mark's got a different idea. I don't think the guys grasp it.
0:25:59 > 0:26:03Marc Riley's from a different background, his culture's different.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06He thinks in terms of a conventional group, writing nice songs.
0:26:06 > 0:26:11I don't think Mark Smith wants to be a pop artist or a rock star.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15My relationship with Mark Smith started off brilliantly
0:26:15 > 0:26:18and ended... not so brilliantly, really.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21You could kind of see it coming, I think.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25There'd been various arguments and fallings out,
0:26:25 > 0:26:30and there seemed to be a lot of difference of opinion on how things should be done.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34I was probably a bit more vocal about it, still not very vocal,
0:26:34 > 0:26:37certainly not fist-flailing and fingers-pointing,
0:26:37 > 0:26:41it'd be just like, "Excuse me, but we're not quite happy about that."
0:26:41 > 0:26:46Mark Smith was quite critical of Marc Riley's playing and his attitude.
0:26:46 > 0:26:55Marc Riley, he wanted to do stuff his way and I think that clashed.
0:26:55 > 0:27:00He wanted to do the hits every night and that's not the group.
0:27:00 > 0:27:05It was like, there's only one leader in The Fall - Mark, and I suppose Marc was a bit of a challenge.
0:27:05 > 0:27:11He said we're going to Europe in a month. I went "All right, OK" and he says, "I don't want you to come."
0:27:11 > 0:27:15I was like, "What?!" and he said "We're gonna do it without you."
0:27:15 > 0:27:18I said, "Oh, right. OK."
0:27:18 > 0:27:23He said, "If it don't go very well, we'll call you when we get back and you can rejoin the band."
0:27:23 > 0:27:28And I'm like, "Right, OK" - in a daze, y'know?
0:27:28 > 0:27:33The next thing I knew, it was about a month later, they were going to Europe.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36I've still not had the phone call.
0:27:38 > 0:27:44We just carried on, really. Kay was still the manager and she'd set this American tour up,
0:27:44 > 0:27:50so we went and did that and Kay - I don't really want to say that, do I?
0:27:50 > 0:27:55That Kay left Mark and then he met Brix, all on the same tour,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58but that's how it happened!
0:27:58 > 0:28:04# The man whose head expanded. #
0:28:04 > 0:28:08She came up to me and said, "I don't like your records much,
0:28:08 > 0:28:13"but what are your lyrics about?" We just got on. We got married.
0:28:13 > 0:28:18- That's not what I said. I said... - It's not exactly what you said.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20Well, I thought you guys were brilliant,
0:28:20 > 0:28:23but I can't understand your lyrics and they irritate me
0:28:23 > 0:28:26because I can't understand them - is what I meant to say.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29The story of The Fall and Mark E Smith over the last 25 years
0:28:29 > 0:28:32has so much it's got to have a soap element,
0:28:32 > 0:28:35it's got to have the Elizabeth Taylor and Burton element,
0:28:35 > 0:28:37the Paul and Linda McCartney element.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40It's gotta have that weird, odd sexual thing going on.
0:28:40 > 0:28:45Again, it was the last thing you would have expected Mark E Smith to get involved in,
0:28:45 > 0:28:47having his wife in the band.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49# Kicker, kicker conspiracy
0:28:49 > 0:28:51# Kicker, kicker conspiracy
0:28:51 > 0:28:53# J Hill's satanic reign
0:28:53 > 0:28:56# Ass-lickers King O'Team. #
0:28:56 > 0:29:00It was like Fall's one of them things - always on the verge of splitting up, really.
0:29:00 > 0:29:05So, Brix sort of brought a bit of new life back into it, I think.
0:29:05 > 0:29:11Different ideas and y'know, it wasn't just miserable blokes from Manchester involved.
0:29:11 > 0:29:14- # What's a computer? - Eat y'self fitter
0:29:14 > 0:29:18- # What's a computer? - Eat y'self fitter. #
0:29:19 > 0:29:25She brought a particularly different, American work ethic into the equation,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28which is, "Get some money!"
0:29:28 > 0:29:30"Try for a hit!"
0:29:36 > 0:29:41I actually sacrificed my principles in order to get The Fall on television.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44I wanted to pick somebody, a favourite of mine for years,
0:29:44 > 0:29:49and funnily enough, they've never done national TV in this country before.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51They've done local things, but never national TV,
0:29:51 > 0:29:53which seemed to me to be shocking.
0:29:53 > 0:29:57I quite wanted to go down in history as the man who put them on TV.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00When they said, "How much do you want for coming on?"
0:30:00 > 0:30:03I said, "Nothing, if I can pick a band to be on the programme."
0:30:03 > 0:30:05It's The Fall.
0:30:15 > 0:30:21I think Brix's impact on the band was one, sartorial - you can see they suddenly smartened up
0:30:21 > 0:30:24and they look like a proposition that could get in the charts.
0:30:24 > 0:30:31# There's a new fiend on the loose On the back of the exhaust clip... #
0:30:31 > 0:30:38Secondly, I think she brought a more overt American rock'n'roll sensibility to it,
0:30:38 > 0:30:43which softened up a lot of the rough edges of the sound.
0:30:49 > 0:30:54# There's a party on down around here Cruiser's Creek yeah
0:30:54 > 0:30:58# See the people walking down the street
0:30:58 > 0:31:01# Sidewalk running... #
0:31:01 > 0:31:05That was great, that whole thing, when they were suddenly on TV
0:31:05 > 0:31:09and they would have champagne in the dressing room.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12It was great! And Mark would wear those cool suits.
0:31:15 > 0:31:20The best thing was meeting Bo Diddley.
0:31:22 > 0:31:28He was on this all rock'n'roll tour, and he said it was the biggest load of crap he'd ever experienced,
0:31:28 > 0:31:32and he said, "But I did see you on that Tube show.
0:31:32 > 0:31:37"I was watching that in the hotel...
0:31:37 > 0:31:43"I saw Elton John and Paula Yates. What the hell's going on there?
0:31:43 > 0:31:46"There was only one good rock'n'roll group and it was you!"
0:31:46 > 0:31:48He goes, "And it was you!"
0:31:48 > 0:31:53I'm like, "It's Bo Diddley!" cos I love Bo Diddley.
0:31:53 > 0:31:59# Cruiser's Creek, yeah Cruiser's Creek. #
0:31:59 > 0:32:03Just for a little bit of time, they were like Mr and Mrs Rock'n'Roll.
0:32:03 > 0:32:08Or Mr and Mrs Strange-Deranged- Rock'n'Roll. It was great!
0:32:08 > 0:32:13- How long can you carry on, though, because...?- What do you mean? Would you like us to break up now?
0:32:13 > 0:32:21- Yes, Muriel.- If you're in a business mode, it's all in pursuit of novelty and that's fair enough, that's cool.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23But, we're not, you know?
0:32:23 > 0:32:28He doesn't want to be in a rock band and I don't think he sees The Fall as a rock band in any sense.
0:32:28 > 0:32:33So, I suppose, he's always been wanting to take it into other artistic dimensions.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36When I was working in Edinburgh during the summer,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39lots of arts lovers were dribbling the claret down their cravats
0:32:39 > 0:32:42and getting very excited over a young dancer, Michael Clark.
0:32:42 > 0:32:45When it comes to dancing, I'm a bit of a philistine.
0:32:45 > 0:32:47Although I did have to sit up and take notice
0:32:47 > 0:32:50when I heard this lad was dancing to music by The Fall.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57He has a genuine desire for an artistic expression.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59That's not false.
0:32:59 > 0:33:07It may be naive or primitive, in the sense of the artists which he likes, who are primitive artists,
0:33:07 > 0:33:09but it's a genuine desire.
0:33:09 > 0:33:14# Kerb-crawlers of the worst order. #
0:33:18 > 0:33:24All the group stayed up to watch The Old Grey Whistle Test, not that I would, personally.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28But you couldn't see the group. That was the funniest bit.
0:33:33 > 0:33:38They stayed up to watch it with all their parents!
0:33:38 > 0:33:42HE LAUGHS
0:33:42 > 0:33:49And all you can see was like, Michael Clark baring his arse on the fucking screen, y'know?
0:33:49 > 0:33:52Fucking great! It was dead funny!
0:34:02 > 0:34:06When a group keeps going as long as The Fall have done,
0:34:06 > 0:34:10and they have a sound that, fundamentally, is actually a commercial sound...
0:34:10 > 0:34:15At it's most fluent, for all its experimental and avant-garde edges,
0:34:15 > 0:34:20it's a commercial sound, because it's about the attack of pop and the attack of rock,
0:34:20 > 0:34:24and the way that a good lyric has a catchy chorus.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28# Hit them all 95 per cent. #
0:34:30 > 0:34:36Mark E Smith has never really, even at his most peculiar, obstinate and strange veered away from that notion
0:34:36 > 0:34:42that he wants to reach the masses, and I think that they kept going for so long, that...
0:34:42 > 0:34:48Fashion does weird dips, and definitely at the end of the 80s, it hit that time. People noticed them.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51# It was bad Called obscene
0:34:51 > 0:34:53# And the rich Were so mean. #
0:34:53 > 0:34:57They'd become fashionable and they started to have bigger audiences.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00He'd never been fashionable. He'd been anti-fashion.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02For a short period, he was fashionable.
0:35:02 > 0:35:08# ..was my queen Victoria! Victoria! #
0:35:08 > 0:35:10I was so glad when we got very popular.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15I remember the time that my mother told me
0:35:15 > 0:35:19that Elton John was on The Tube and said he liked The Fall,
0:35:19 > 0:35:21because it was rock'n'roll.
0:35:21 > 0:35:26# Victoria! #
0:35:27 > 0:35:30I thought we were doing something wrong, actually.
0:35:30 > 0:35:35# Victoria! Victoria! Victoria! #
0:35:37 > 0:35:42An email from Sean Cordell, "My youth can be tracked through the development of The Fall."
0:35:42 > 0:35:45A good way to have spent your life, I think, Sean.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57- # Wrong place... #- Sorry.
0:35:57 > 0:36:03Because you have to walk through the vegetarian, organic shop in Maida Vale.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07Ha! One. One.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10- There's the first take. - C'mon. The first take, you can that?
0:36:10 > 0:36:12One, two, three, four.
0:36:12 > 0:36:16# Wrong place, right time
0:36:16 > 0:36:19# I used to think I could do what I wanted to
0:36:19 > 0:36:22# Right time for me alone
0:36:22 > 0:36:26# I walk the streets of complete full homes
0:36:26 > 0:36:29# I can't dance I can't sing #
0:36:29 > 0:36:33WORDS DROWNED OUT
0:36:33 > 0:36:39# Mike Clark Said I'm a bastard
0:36:39 > 0:36:43# He is deranged I am William of Orange
0:36:43 > 0:36:46# Go insane in Holland
0:36:46 > 0:36:50# I can't wait to taste anthrax turf again. #
0:36:50 > 0:36:57Well, nobody could believe it with Curious Orange that we would dare to put it on in Edinburgh.
0:36:59 > 0:37:03What was interesting about the idea of being associated with a ballet
0:37:03 > 0:37:09was that it seemed one of the few moments of utter logic in the history of The Fall, in a way.
0:37:09 > 0:37:16A series of clashing illogicalities, constantly, here was something that was quite logical,
0:37:16 > 0:37:19as if there was a narrative development of The Fall.
0:37:19 > 0:37:23This is the moment where they're deemed to be quite artistic, really.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26# From a can a Shepherd's Bush man
0:37:26 > 0:37:28# You're cabbing it uptown, uptown. #
0:37:29 > 0:37:32I remember going up and just overseeing
0:37:32 > 0:37:35the recording of it in Edinburgh,
0:37:35 > 0:37:38and seeing the play and it was great. It was really good!
0:37:38 > 0:37:44Mad! Brix on the hamburger! And it just was... She smiled all the way through it.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49You have The Fall fans at the back in the cheap seats
0:37:49 > 0:37:53and the ballet fans at the front with their fingers in their ears.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57# I drink the long draught band Drink the long, drink the long... #
0:37:57 > 0:38:01I thought it was hysterical. It was wild. It was free.
0:38:01 > 0:38:03The group played really well.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06Some of the dancing was fantastic.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09Michael runs a mean troupe...
0:38:09 > 0:38:13in a similar way to Mark running a mean band.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15It was good doing ballet...
0:38:17 > 0:38:20..because there's a discipline there, y'know?
0:38:22 > 0:38:27You know, you have to be there at 7pm for half an hour,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31then you've gotta get on stage at 9 o'clock
0:38:31 > 0:38:35and you've gotta get fucking off at 10.30, and that's fucking it.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38And if you don't get it right, you're fucked. It's different.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43# They were curious, orange... #
0:38:43 > 0:38:47It took Mark to a new level of audience. It made him a favourite.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51He suddenly became of interest to the chattering classes -
0:38:51 > 0:38:53the very middle class and bourgeois crowd
0:38:53 > 0:38:56that he doesn't like, if the truth be told.
0:38:56 > 0:39:03Just as it was going really well, I think Mark just said, "Y'know, I'm not really what you're saying I am.
0:39:03 > 0:39:07"I am not this thing. I'm Mark E Smith. I am not your pet."
0:39:07 > 0:39:09And just veered off in another direction.
0:39:14 > 0:39:15It was a difficult time for Mark.
0:39:15 > 0:39:19# Goodbye, my dear! #
0:39:19 > 0:39:24I think she was looking for fame and Mark, I'm sure he doesn't mind fame,
0:39:24 > 0:39:27but he's not looking for it in the same way.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30He doesn't value fame and he doesn't really value the opinion
0:39:30 > 0:39:34of a load of famous people, who don't particularly care for him.
0:39:38 > 0:39:42Mark's personal life was always entangled with The Fall.
0:39:42 > 0:39:48# Last week, after Dynasty
0:39:48 > 0:39:55# I had crow's feet under my eyes
0:39:55 > 0:40:00# Paid two days for getting high. #
0:40:00 > 0:40:06People felt dead sorry for me, y'know, blokes on the dole in the pub going, "There's a pint, Mark."
0:40:06 > 0:40:12"It happens to us all, lad", and all that. "It's all right!"
0:40:15 > 0:40:20# These are the finest times of my life
0:40:20 > 0:40:26# This is the greatest time of my life. #
0:40:26 > 0:40:29Mark just seemed to keep working through things,
0:40:29 > 0:40:32whenever things happened like that in his life,
0:40:32 > 0:40:35he just seemed to keep working through it, you know?
0:40:35 > 0:40:40There was never like, "I'm gonna take a break for six months" or anything like that.
0:40:40 > 0:40:42This is Craig's tribute to Frank Zappa.
0:40:42 > 0:40:47Now, we can all laugh about this, but this is his tribute to Frank,
0:40:47 > 0:40:50and so it's called I'm Frank.
0:40:50 > 0:40:55Just about to do our first album for Phonogram and Brix left,
0:40:55 > 0:40:59and Martin Bramah came back for Extricate.
0:40:59 > 0:41:03I mean, we all liked Martin anyway, cos he was the original guitarist.
0:41:03 > 0:41:07We were quite chuffed to have him back in the band, I think.
0:41:07 > 0:41:11# Gimme gimme gimme it slowly baby. #
0:41:11 > 0:41:14Even with Mark, the strangest things you take for granted.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17You'd just think, he needed some kind of replacement for Brix.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20Maybe best to go back to the very beginning.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Maybe some strange notion that he could get a bit of a formula back.
0:41:23 > 0:41:28# How dare you assume I want to parlez-vous with you?
0:41:28 > 0:41:31# Sorry to be so short with you... #
0:41:31 > 0:41:35It didn't really work out, him rejoining, I don't think.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39Cos when they formed, it was probably equal, you know?
0:41:39 > 0:41:42It was probably as much his band as Mark's,
0:41:42 > 0:41:46but when he rejoined he had to take a back seat.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48# I hear you telephone thing... #
0:41:48 > 0:41:50.the 24th session for the programme as far as we know.
0:41:50 > 0:41:53The band have recorded sessions, pretty much every year,
0:41:53 > 0:41:57the exceptions being '82, '89, '97 - not sure how that happened,
0:41:57 > 0:42:01and then for some reason, there were no more sessions after '98 until 2003.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04"John, can you tell us why this was?" it says here.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07Breakdown in communications - the best reason I can give you.
0:42:07 > 0:42:13I wrote this script, which... You're like I come in and start shouting at you cos you haven't done the tracks.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16So why have you done the fucking tracks, then?
0:42:16 > 0:42:20Well, we just thought, because you'd gone to the pub, we'd better...
0:42:20 > 0:42:21Don't say that to me!
0:42:21 > 0:42:24Don't you say that to me!
0:42:24 > 0:42:25He's been working hard.
0:42:25 > 0:42:27- Yeah.- Sorry, boss.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29"Sorry, boss." What kind of word's that?
0:42:29 > 0:42:33You are only a drummer. I am Mark Smith - big shot.
0:42:33 > 0:42:37When we think of The Fall as a group, this is one of his more brilliant illusions.
0:42:37 > 0:42:42He's kept that idea that The Fall has been going for 25, 30 years,
0:42:42 > 0:42:47but in a funny sort of way, there's been about 30 or 40 groups that Mark E Smith has had.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51There've been so many of them, I mean... Go out and do a straw poll.
0:42:51 > 0:42:56You could go outside now and probably bump into someone who's been in The Fall.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58# Don't call me darling. #
0:42:58 > 0:43:02I've got this thing, a reputation as like a sack master,
0:43:02 > 0:43:07keep firing people and all that. It's like common knowledge, now.
0:43:07 > 0:43:13Anywhere I go now, people on the street go, "You're the one, who's had all them group members."
0:43:13 > 0:43:15I don't see what the problem is.
0:43:15 > 0:43:19Obviously, it's become almost a kind of joke, except for the people concerned.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23You know, the passage through The Fall, and then, by and large,
0:43:23 > 0:43:26people then disappear without a trace after they've gone,
0:43:26 > 0:43:29which seems... I don't know whether he's killing them.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32You have to be a fairly strong person, I think.
0:43:32 > 0:43:37There was quite a few musicians and people around the band who didn't last very long.
0:43:37 > 0:43:41It's not like an ordinary group.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44People do it cos they love it.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47They do it for nothing, or they do it for money,
0:43:47 > 0:43:49but they will fucking do it, y'know?
0:43:54 > 0:43:57I noticed in the '90s what was happening with Mark E Smith was
0:43:57 > 0:44:03what had once been sympathetically registered in a certain area as the old curmudgeon or whatever,
0:44:03 > 0:44:06or the old fart, but you know, what a genius...
0:44:06 > 0:44:10He suddenly became...a fucking asshole, I guess, is the phrase.
0:44:10 > 0:44:15He's suddenly become... You realised there were large parts of Mark E Smith that were not very nice.
0:44:15 > 0:44:19I don't think he's made his behaviour any better by his use...
0:44:19 > 0:44:23tremendous use of drugs and speedy drugs,
0:44:23 > 0:44:26speed and various things that would make his nerves worse,
0:44:26 > 0:44:28but he's a tough, tough character.
0:44:28 > 0:44:33It shows on his face, that he's a hard-line drinker.
0:44:33 > 0:44:35It shows on his face that he's a tough guy.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37There came a moment when it turned,
0:44:37 > 0:44:41and that abuse that we'd put down to him just living on the edge,
0:44:41 > 0:44:46and the speed and the booze, it started to be something
0:44:46 > 0:44:50that was clearly affecting him as an individual.
0:44:50 > 0:44:54That was the moment, when you kind of thought, "Oh, my God!",
0:44:54 > 0:44:59"What if he wasn't a genius, he was just an old drunken tramp that when he got really drunk,
0:44:59 > 0:45:03"spouted phrases that made a kind of sense and we read too much into it?"
0:45:03 > 0:45:06Just a little bit of that started to come into it, you know?
0:45:06 > 0:45:08# Feeling numb, now
0:45:08 > 0:45:11# The grist that curtails will make us strong
0:45:11 > 0:45:16# And you'll be dead before I'm born. Pah! #
0:45:16 > 0:45:21I don't think an award like Godlike Genius or Lifetime Service Award is relevant to them,
0:45:21 > 0:45:25cos it suggests that it's stopped and it doesn't look like it ever is gonna stop.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29The point where everybody thought it would end was the mid '90s,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32when he didn't seem to be able to hold a line-up together,
0:45:32 > 0:45:36he looked terribly ill and you really felt you were living in the last days.
0:45:39 > 0:45:44He was turning into a bit of a shambles by this time, I think everybody would admit that.
0:45:44 > 0:45:49There was a lot of financial trouble the band were in, which was affecting everything.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52Gigs got cancelled. We'd row in the sound check
0:45:52 > 0:45:53and we wouldn't get to the gig.
0:45:53 > 0:45:58The writing was on the wall, really, by then.
0:45:58 > 0:46:03But I don't know why we went to America. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13My last gig was at Brownies, which is pretty well known as a disaster.
0:46:16 > 0:46:21A lot of aggression on stage, and I think the odd microphone being thrown about and kicked over.
0:46:23 > 0:46:29Well, they started on me, and I started on them. Fair, isn't it?
0:46:29 > 0:46:33By this time, I'd had enough, I think, you know,
0:46:33 > 0:46:36and I maybe should have got out of it a couple of years before.
0:46:36 > 0:46:42That band had just run out of steam, and yet because it was Steve,
0:46:42 > 0:46:48because it was Karl, I think he had a loyalty to those people.
0:46:48 > 0:46:54All the equipment was pushed over and Mark was fighting with Karl and trashed the drum kit.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01So he attacked me as well.
0:47:01 > 0:47:08I ended up in jail, but at the end of the day, I think it was probably the best thing that ever happened,
0:47:08 > 0:47:12that scrap on the...stage.
0:47:14 > 0:47:19I felt like I was carrying these old fellers around all the time.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26They're all about my age and they're shit.
0:47:26 > 0:47:30There's no two ways about it, y'know. They're crap.
0:47:30 > 0:47:34..a fucking animal on drugs - a fucking idiot!
0:47:34 > 0:47:37WHISTLING No fucking singer, man!
0:47:37 > 0:47:40Where's the fucking singer? You cock.
0:47:40 > 0:47:45- I've been assaulted in public... - Yeah, right(!)- ..by two people.
0:47:45 > 0:47:50Or three people. You've been witness to this. Bear witness, laddies.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53He'd let it go too far. He'd fallen out with his group.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57He was drinking too much and he was gradually losing contact.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01They had no management and no friends were working with them.
0:48:01 > 0:48:05I couldn't get any work. I couldn't get any jobs in Europe...
0:48:08 > 0:48:13Or America or anything. Zip! Britain even.
0:48:13 > 0:48:17The point about him is you've gotta play the game a little bit and he knows that.
0:48:17 > 0:48:21You can't completely ditch everything and expect your fame to carry you through.
0:48:21 > 0:48:27# You dissolute singer. # RADIO: At Brownie's tonight...
0:48:27 > 0:48:33I think it was after that low point, he realised that you have to have a band, that he was known.
0:48:33 > 0:48:35He went back to the basics of his success.
0:48:35 > 0:48:42When you think, "He's too drunk, he hasn't got a band, he's forgotten his lyrics, who the hell is he?"
0:48:42 > 0:48:47He'll end up putting together a set that's mesmerising and you realise what a great artist he is.
0:48:51 > 0:48:58What he produced was rather good. He came up with one or two incarnations of The Fall that were very talented.
0:48:58 > 0:49:04There were so many people that would love to be in that band, great musicians that could join it.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07And often you think, "Just get someone in, and sort it out!"
0:49:07 > 0:49:11People would contribute to this that are brilliant. But that'd be the wrong thing to do.
0:49:11 > 0:49:19Don't want Fall fans, y'know? Cos you get...I've had fill-ins, blokes who like The Fall,
0:49:19 > 0:49:27filled in on bass or guitar and they play like they think The Fall is and it's rubbish.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30First time I met Mark I was about 15 years old.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Cos he came drinking in the same building that used to be my youth club.
0:49:34 > 0:49:40And I kinda saw him on and off for about four years,
0:49:40 > 0:49:42and then I got a phone call from a friend of Mark's,
0:49:42 > 0:49:46asking if I wanted to do a day's work for The Fall in Manchester.
0:49:49 > 0:49:52We went down, recorded some tunes off The Unutterable album.
0:49:52 > 0:49:59And I think on the strength of that performance I did on that day, he kind of offered me the job.
0:49:59 > 0:50:06Everybody who works for The Fall is um... They're very regular people,
0:50:06 > 0:50:08and I wouldn't pick 'em otherwise.
0:50:10 > 0:50:14He's got Elena now in the band and that has really focused down.
0:50:14 > 0:50:18Another very strong woman, knows exactly what she wants to do.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21# Pumpkin soup and mashed potatoes. #
0:50:21 > 0:50:26I didn't want to join for obvious reasons, being the wife and so.
0:50:26 > 0:50:30But I found it quite easy to play with them.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33And, you know, I just stuck with it.
0:50:33 > 0:50:39I treat Elena completely different, when she's in the group. It's not like...
0:50:39 > 0:50:42I treat her like everybody else. A bit hard sometimes, y'know.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46I don't think it's important to Mark.
0:50:46 > 0:50:50He doesn't differentiate between women and men - as humans, as people
0:50:50 > 0:50:54and certainly not as musicians, so it makes no difference.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57No, women are a lot better actually, at a lot of things.
0:50:57 > 0:51:03Musically, they just take it up. You can just give them an idea...
0:51:03 > 0:51:09A lot of fellers want to know the mechanics of it all the time, which I can't explain to them,
0:51:09 > 0:51:13because, believe it or not, I still don't know a D from an E or an F from an A.
0:51:13 > 0:51:15I know an A and an E, sort of.
0:51:17 > 0:51:24And this email says, "Play a Fall track for Mike in Frome and Ben in London, arsehole saddos,
0:51:24 > 0:51:28and to all the young Fall fans - big up and Spencer is a top Fall drummer.
0:51:28 > 0:51:33GUITAR AND DRUMS
0:51:37 > 0:51:40- See what I mean? - He's playing! Shut it!
0:51:40 > 0:51:44All I'm saying is, we could improve on that. It could be a lot tighter.
0:51:44 > 0:51:46We don't have to do Wrong Place again?
0:51:46 > 0:51:52Creatively, it's the best band to be in, it really is, cos the songs are written that...
0:51:52 > 0:51:57Some are written by individuals and some are written by the entire band.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59He gives you a lot of leeway.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01Can you pick my guitar up for me?
0:52:01 > 0:52:08I just give them the freedom, which they don't get in...
0:52:08 > 0:52:12Y'know, like rock bands and all that.
0:52:13 > 0:52:17At the end of the day, you know, once you hand that song over and he's sung over it, it's his song.
0:52:17 > 0:52:22It's his tune, you know. And he'll put his nice little...
0:52:22 > 0:52:27He'll do his thing to it, that makes it that little bit special.
0:52:27 > 0:52:32I love the way he reduces the basic idea of The Fall to being raw sound with weird singing over the top.
0:52:32 > 0:52:36He's not a singer, but he's one of the greatest rock singer's there's ever been
0:52:36 > 0:52:40and his whole way of turning the drunken karaoke singing,
0:52:40 > 0:52:44with 'uh' at the end of everything has become unbelievably powerful.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47My singing's getting very good, actually. It's all about...
0:52:47 > 0:52:50HE MOUTHS
0:52:50 > 0:52:55I'm getting really good at singing, after twenty-fucking-five years.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59No, I really am.
0:53:01 > 0:53:08# See the people all in line What's making them look at me?
0:53:08 > 0:53:14# Can't imagine that their minds Thinking the same as me
0:53:14 > 0:53:22# Cos I can hear the grass grow I can hear the grass cry
0:53:22 > 0:53:26# I see rainbows in the evening
0:53:26 > 0:53:34# And I can hear the grass grow I can hear the grass grow
0:53:34 > 0:53:38# I see rainbows in the evening. #
0:53:43 > 0:53:48This has been just magnificent, I think and thanks Mark and the others for making an old man very happy.
0:53:48 > 0:53:50Two tunes from The Fall -
0:53:50 > 0:53:53Wrong Place and The Move's I Can Hear The Grass Grow.
0:53:53 > 0:53:56C'mon, one two two.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59The latest band now is just fantastic.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01Ra, ra, ra, ra!
0:54:02 > 0:54:07Who can say that - 27 years and he's got a stunning band.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10I saw them a week ago and there were like five new songs in the set
0:54:10 > 0:54:12and they were the best five songs.
0:54:16 > 0:54:18# We live on blood... #
0:54:20 > 0:54:26One of the classic moves in the last five years on stage has been in turning up people's amps,
0:54:26 > 0:54:29switching bits of kit off.
0:54:29 > 0:54:35Mark does a lot of live mixing on stage, like he moves microphones, puts it in the bass drum or so,
0:54:35 > 0:54:41and I think there's no other band that does this, like a live mix by the singer.
0:54:41 > 0:54:45"What's he doing now?" He's messing with your amp - "I don't know what he's doing",
0:54:45 > 0:54:50but in his head, he's "Right, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this."
0:54:54 > 0:54:58It's to wake 'em up a bit, y'know, the group - not the crowd.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03I'm not bothered about the crowd. I never have been, y'know?
0:55:03 > 0:55:05They don't interest me.
0:55:05 > 0:55:10# ..Cheap English man In the paper shop
0:55:10 > 0:55:13# You mug old women... #
0:55:13 > 0:55:20The experience of being in The Fall will give you the most fantastic time of your life,
0:55:20 > 0:55:23that you would never have had in any other band,
0:55:23 > 0:55:27but at the same time, you also get some of the most frightening experiences.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31I mean, it's kinda like that. It's kinda like that.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34# ..We have to pay for everything But some things are for free... #
0:55:34 > 0:55:37It's easy to assume when you go to a gig and all these people have turned up,
0:55:37 > 0:55:40that you're partly responsible for this.
0:55:40 > 0:55:46That's when you start your slippery slope downhill, because once you start thinking that...
0:55:46 > 0:55:49You've gotta come into this band and you've gotta know your role.
0:55:49 > 0:55:52# ..English Chelsea fan This is your last game
0:55:52 > 0:55:55# We're not Galatasaray We're Sparta FC
0:55:55 > 0:56:00# I will tell you how it will change. #
0:56:00 > 0:56:02AUDIENCE CHEER
0:56:02 > 0:56:07There was a song on Hex Enduction Hour, Hip Priest, that they re-did on A Kurious Oranj soundtrack,
0:56:07 > 0:56:13which has got this line, "He is not appreciated" and every encore for time immemorial now,
0:56:13 > 0:56:17has involved him handing the mike out to a member of the audience,
0:56:17 > 0:56:20who can then shout "He is not appreciated."
0:56:20 > 0:56:23And I think that there's a kind of feedback loop, there,
0:56:23 > 0:56:27of the audience flattering Mark E Smith, saying, "We know how good you are,
0:56:27 > 0:56:30"but you're playing to these crowds at this level."
0:56:30 > 0:56:34But there's also a bit of flattery, going the other way
0:56:34 > 0:56:38It's one of those rare moments, where he is approving of the audience,
0:56:38 > 0:56:42saying, "But you know. You know I'm really good."
0:56:42 > 0:56:47# Because he's, he's fucking not... #
0:56:47 > 0:56:53There's part of him that is so fucking furious with his obscurity and his poverty,
0:56:53 > 0:56:59considering how brilliant he is and part of him that really, really wouldn't want it any other way.
0:56:59 > 0:57:06I think there's a lot of deception going on, sometimes, with Mark.
0:57:06 > 0:57:10He wants an audience... he wants to be appreciated.
0:57:10 > 0:57:16He deserves to be appreciated, or feels he does... and some of it's just showbiz.
0:57:16 > 0:57:20"I'm an anti-star, but I shine brightly."
0:57:26 > 0:57:31He lives in his own weird little world and it's not a world I particularly want to be part of,
0:57:31 > 0:57:36but it's Mark Smith - what he does is brilliant and you can never write him off.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38# Check the record Check the record
0:57:38 > 0:57:40# Check the guy's track record
0:57:40 > 0:57:44# Check the record Check the guy's track record... #
0:57:44 > 0:57:51It is to Manchester's glory, that, yes, we have Ian Curtis and Shaun Ryder and Ian Brown and...
0:57:51 > 0:57:59Let's forget the Gallagher brothers, but without Mark E, that heritage would be a much, much poorer place.
0:57:59 > 0:58:04And the fact that I'm calling him heritage he'll fucking hate, so I'm glad I said it.
0:58:04 > 0:58:08# He is not... #
0:58:08 > 0:58:16I respect Mark for continuing to beat his own path through the jungle that is life.
0:58:16 > 0:58:21Even if there's a well-worn path, three or four feet to the left or right of him,
0:58:21 > 0:58:24he's still gonna go down the middle and that's got to be good.
0:58:24 > 0:58:33# ..He is fucking not Drink a long, drink a long draught
0:58:33 > 0:58:34# Drink a long draught... #
0:58:34 > 0:58:39I've got plenty to say, you know? I'm gonna carry on saying it.
0:58:42 > 0:58:44Okey doke?
0:58:44 > 0:58:46# Check the record Check the record
0:58:46 > 0:58:48# Check the guy's track record.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51# Check the record Check the guy's track record. #