0:00:02 > 0:00:04I forget, what were you saying there, Tony?
0:00:04 > 0:00:08I was getting at this... I was getting at the process.
0:00:08 > 0:00:10Oh, the creative life not being enough. Yeah.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13HE STRUMS GUITAR So, by the time I was 30...
0:00:13 > 0:00:16HE CONTINUES STRUMMING GUITAR
0:00:16 > 0:00:20Well, I was thinking of all these things because they seemed to be...
0:00:21 > 0:00:24So this was what was holding society together.
0:00:24 > 0:00:29These imperfect ideas of how people connect
0:00:29 > 0:00:32and relate to one another, or don't. And...
0:00:34 > 0:00:36So I want to be a part of that.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39I don't want to just be outside, looking in,
0:00:39 > 0:00:41I don't just want to be a commentator, I just don't
0:00:41 > 0:00:45want to be the audience, I don't want to be the observer.
0:00:45 > 0:00:50You know, I want to be an active part of it in some way.
0:00:50 > 0:00:55And so it was a lot of what I was telling myself on The River.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Ties that bind. Well, how do you make that?
0:00:58 > 0:01:01How does that happen? You know?
0:01:02 > 0:01:04How do people come together, fall apart?
0:01:04 > 0:01:09How do... You know? I want to be a player.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13You know? And... In...
0:01:15 > 0:01:17So, I think, up to that point in my life,
0:01:17 > 0:01:21I really hadn't had the courage to do that.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24Or I tried and failed so quickly that, you know,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27it didn't add up, so...
0:01:27 > 0:01:32Part of The River was trying to find the courage to put my feet in,
0:01:32 > 0:01:36jump in with both feet and...
0:01:37 > 0:01:39..experience those things myself.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51# I went out walking the other day
0:01:55 > 0:01:58# Seen a little girl crying along the way
0:02:01 > 0:02:05# She'd been hurt so bad, said she'd never love again
0:02:09 > 0:02:13# Someday you're crying, girl, will end
0:02:14 > 0:02:17# And you'll find once again
0:02:17 > 0:02:21# Two hearts are better than one
0:02:21 > 0:02:24# Two hearts, girl, get the job done
0:02:24 > 0:02:27# Two hearts are better than one
0:02:31 > 0:02:35# Once I spent my time playing tough guy scenes
0:02:37 > 0:02:42# But I was living in a world of childish dreams
0:02:45 > 0:02:49# Someday these childish dreams must end
0:02:52 > 0:02:56# To become a man and grow up to dream again
0:02:58 > 0:03:00# Now I believe in the end
0:03:00 > 0:03:04# Two hearts are better than one
0:03:04 > 0:03:08# Two hearts, girl, get the job done
0:03:08 > 0:03:11# Two hearts are better than one
0:03:13 > 0:03:17# Sometimes it might seem like it was planned
0:03:17 > 0:03:22# For you to roam empty hearted through this land
0:03:22 > 0:03:25# Though the world turns you hard and cold
0:03:25 > 0:03:28# There's one thing that I know
0:03:33 > 0:03:37# That's if you think your heart is stone
0:03:39 > 0:03:44# And you're rough enough to whip this world alone
0:03:48 > 0:03:52# Alone, buddy, there ain't no peace of mind
0:03:54 > 0:03:59# That's why I'll keep searching till I find
0:04:00 > 0:04:03# My special one
0:04:03 > 0:04:07# Two hearts are better than one
0:04:07 > 0:04:10# Two hearts, girl, get the job done
0:04:10 > 0:04:13# Two hearts are better than one
0:04:15 > 0:04:18# Now I believe
0:04:18 > 0:04:21# Two hearts are better than one
0:04:21 > 0:04:24# Two hearts, girl, get the job done
0:04:25 > 0:04:30# Two hearts are better...
0:04:30 > 0:04:33# Better than one. #
0:04:41 > 0:04:43HE TAPS ON THE GUITAR
0:04:53 > 0:04:56We'd moved to a large farmhouse in...
0:04:56 > 0:05:00on Telegraph Hill Road in Holmdel, New Jersey.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06It sat on 160 acres of land.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11I think I paid 700 bucks a month rent on it, that's what I remember.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18And so I started to write there for The River.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26Living in the country was this very bucolic landscape.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30There was a lot of ruralness in the... certainly in The River,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33in the song The River. But I think sprinkled throughout the record.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Darkness, I have to say, that was kind of the Samurai record,
0:05:39 > 0:05:42that was a record where there was a lot of isolation on it.
0:05:42 > 0:05:46The River, I was trying to move my characters back towards,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49towards the mainstream, I guess.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54I wanted to write for my age, you know? I...
0:05:56 > 0:05:59And really that started very consciously with Darkness
0:05:59 > 0:06:02and continued through The River.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04I was moving forward, but in a funny way
0:06:04 > 0:06:09I was being inspired by things older than rock music at the time. And...
0:06:11 > 0:06:15And that was where I was finding a lot of the commonality and content.
0:06:15 > 0:06:20You know, was...in music that was older than rock music.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23So I blended those two things, you know, I blended that
0:06:23 > 0:06:27sensibility with the excitement of what I did with the band.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34I was listening to quite a bit of classic country.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39Roy Acuff and of course Johnny Cash and...George Jones,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Tammy Wynette. I just loved it, and I felt that,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46you know, I felt the sympathy of it was set generally.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50Once again, it was kind of small-town music and rural music.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54But it also had adult concerns,
0:06:54 > 0:06:58and I think I was interested in...in going there.
0:06:59 > 0:07:01I dedicate this one to Max and Becky.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Come on, boys.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11BAND START PLAYING
0:07:27 > 0:07:30We used to all sit on the tour bus
0:07:30 > 0:07:34and bet who was going to get married first.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42And everybody would always be saying, "Not me!"
0:07:42 > 0:07:44What about you? LAUGHTER
0:07:44 > 0:07:47- No way.- Nobody to marry?
0:07:47 > 0:07:50No. What about you, big man?
0:07:55 > 0:07:57When you got to go, you got to go.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04You got to understand that the band at the time was not very grown-up.
0:08:04 > 0:08:10That... In the sense that people were just starting to get married
0:08:10 > 0:08:15and have their kids. So you forget we were still a bunch of kids.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19And my family was gone, they were in California.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23I wasn't much in touch with the rest of my family in New Jersey.
0:08:23 > 0:08:24So there was the band.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27You had your little, you know, rat pack,
0:08:27 > 0:08:31and it was still very much the lost boys, you know?
0:08:31 > 0:08:33By the time you're 30, you are...
0:08:35 > 0:08:38You know, you have a clock that is ticking,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41you are definitely operating in the adult world.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46And I know I was...
0:08:48 > 0:08:52..thinking about all these things by that time.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55Relationships, they're a success, they're a failure.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00And because of my own personal history.
0:09:03 > 0:09:05It was a mystery to me how people
0:09:05 > 0:09:07were successful at...
0:09:07 > 0:09:09HE LAUGHS ..at those things.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15And really, the writer's life is sort of
0:09:15 > 0:09:17excavating those mysteries.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57Working just with the acoustic guitar and a cassette tape
0:09:57 > 0:09:59on a beatbox, you know.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01I would simply sit with the cassette,
0:10:01 > 0:10:05rewind it over and over and over and over and over and sit there
0:10:05 > 0:10:10with my notebook and try to sing some successful lyrics on top of it.
0:10:10 > 0:10:17The idea being, I would write all the songs and spare us studio time
0:10:17 > 0:10:22and I would have a relatively good idea of what I was doing
0:10:22 > 0:10:23before I went in.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27# Beneath a street light too much fighting in the night
0:10:27 > 0:10:31# Baby sitting here cause chain lightning... #
0:10:31 > 0:10:35When the band comes to the house, it's our usual rehearsal situation.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39In other words, I have a variety of specific parts
0:10:39 > 0:10:40that I want the guys to play.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45We learned those first and then the guys kind of add their, you know,
0:10:45 > 0:10:50their flourishes as the rehearsal goes by and we'll see what works.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01Beatbox always sounds great.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03It's all compressed and it's slashing
0:11:03 > 0:11:06and smashing around and it always sounds exciting.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16I'm making my demos on my old cassette player...
0:11:18 > 0:11:20..and I'm rehearsing the guys.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23We're doing things like, a song called Night Fires,
0:11:23 > 0:11:27The Man Who Got Away, a song called Under The Gun and those
0:11:27 > 0:11:30are pretty exciting, musically.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34So, I get about 13 or 14 of these things
0:11:34 > 0:11:37and we decide it's time to try and make a record.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40We go in and we cut the tracks and the tracks sound great
0:11:40 > 0:11:43and I can't quite get the lyrics finished to them, you know,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46which is a little unusual for me, but it happens.
0:11:48 > 0:11:55So, my band did a lot of that music and, er, I move on.
0:11:55 > 0:12:01I believe almost none of them worked out as realised pieces of music.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04# Sitting at the lights around midnight
0:12:04 > 0:12:07# Streaking lights and night
0:12:07 > 0:12:08# We're chain lightning... #
0:12:08 > 0:12:14I had a sense of what I could do, certainly what I wanted to do
0:12:14 > 0:12:19and how broad I wanted the story I was telling, to be.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23And if I didn't get it, I just didn't sleep well at night.
0:12:23 > 0:12:24It wasn't...
0:12:24 > 0:12:27This is what I was doing. I wasn't doing anything else.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30I was only doing... I only had music.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33And if I wasn't doing that right,
0:12:33 > 0:12:37I just didn't know what I was doing on the planet at the time.
0:12:47 > 0:12:54You have a sense of your reach and you hope that you can get there.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56You don't know. When I took the record back from the studio,
0:12:56 > 0:13:01I didn't know what record I was making. I was lost again.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05I had to be willing to throw myself back into the wilderness.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09Hacking away, not knowing if I was going to get where I wanted to go.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25People were also used to the records being difficult
0:13:25 > 0:13:30and once we had Born To Run, they were all hard records to make.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33This is a continuation of the story of certain albums
0:13:33 > 0:13:38and these were the days when we suffered tremendously trying
0:13:38 > 0:13:42to gain the knowledge of how to make records.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44Same thing on The River.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46Now we're trying to make a different kind of record.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49How do we make that record? I don't know.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51How do we get this snare to sound the way we want it to sound?
0:13:51 > 0:13:53Once again, we don't know.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57How do we get the kind of mixes we want? Don't really know.
0:13:57 > 0:14:01Once again, we were working outside the professional auspices
0:14:01 > 0:14:03of the recording industry.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08We hired ourselves and we knew we were going on an adventure
0:14:08 > 0:14:12and a journey and a quest and when you got hired on,
0:14:12 > 0:14:16that was the bar, that was the deal.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19# Love fuelled not by the future
0:14:19 > 0:14:22# But by a past we could... #
0:14:22 > 0:14:27We were still in the process of carving out our identity.
0:14:27 > 0:14:32For most of my audience, they were still familiar with two records,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Born To Run and Darkness On The Edge Of Town,
0:14:34 > 0:14:39so we were still carving out who we were
0:14:39 > 0:14:45and I needed a record that I felt had a very, very strong identity.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05# I come from down in the valley
0:15:05 > 0:15:10# Where, mister, when you're young
0:15:10 > 0:15:18# They bring you up to do like your daddy done
0:15:18 > 0:15:22# Me and Mary we met in high school
0:15:22 > 0:15:27# When she was just 17
0:15:27 > 0:15:31# We'd ride out of this valley
0:15:31 > 0:15:35# Down to where the fields were green
0:15:38 > 0:15:42# We'd go down to the river
0:15:42 > 0:15:46# And into the river we'd dive
0:15:46 > 0:15:53# Oh down to the river we'd ride...
0:16:30 > 0:16:34'I think the biggest change on The River was,
0:16:34 > 0:16:38'I started the narrative writing where I would inhabit a character.'
0:16:41 > 0:16:44'With a very specific narrative story,'
0:16:44 > 0:16:45I would sing in that voice,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48a character, and it wasn't necessarily me.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51It was partly me and partly other people, so, of course,
0:16:51 > 0:16:57The River, that was my touchstone for all of the writing that came later.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Where you simply step into a character's shoes
0:17:00 > 0:17:04and try to get your listeners to walk in those shoes for a while.
0:17:05 > 0:17:12The River was the key to the record in that it was a throwback to
0:17:12 > 0:17:17older folk music and an older voice. It was a very adult voice.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20It was a political voice in the sense that it was dealing with
0:17:20 > 0:17:23the Carter recession and its effects on working people.
0:17:25 > 0:17:33# I got a job working construction for the Johnstown Company
0:17:33 > 0:17:41# But lately there ain't been much work on account of the economy
0:17:42 > 0:17:46# Now all those things that seemed so important
0:17:46 > 0:17:50# They vanished right into the air
0:17:51 > 0:17:54# I act like I don't remember
0:17:55 > 0:17:59# Mary acts like she don't care
0:17:59 > 0:18:03# I remember us driving in her brother's car
0:18:03 > 0:18:08# Her body tanned and wet down at the reservoir
0:18:08 > 0:18:12# At night on those banks I'd lie awake
0:18:12 > 0:18:17# Pull her close just to feel each breath she'd take
0:18:17 > 0:18:21# Now those memories come back to haunt me
0:18:21 > 0:18:23# Yeah, they haunted me like a curse
0:18:25 > 0:18:30# Is a dream a lie if it don't come true
0:18:30 > 0:18:33# Or is it something worse
0:18:34 > 0:18:38# That sends me down to the river
0:18:38 > 0:18:43# Though I know the river is dry
0:18:43 > 0:18:48# Sends me down to the river tonight... #
0:18:51 > 0:18:55I think the, 'I come from down in the valley,'
0:18:55 > 0:19:01you're laying claim to that character's experience
0:19:01 > 0:19:05and you're trying to do right by it, as a songwriter.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09And you're taking the risk of singing in that voice.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12But that's the writer's job.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16Your job is to faithfully imagine the world
0:19:16 > 0:19:21and others' lives in a way that respects them, sort of,
0:19:21 > 0:19:29honours them and records them in your own way somewhat faithfully.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58# I pick you up with flowers when you get off work
0:19:58 > 0:20:02# It's like you don't even care it's like I'm some kind of joke
0:20:02 > 0:20:06# I take you out on a date and then you won't even kiss me
0:20:06 > 0:20:08# But when I... #
0:20:08 > 0:20:13The initial record of the River, we made it, we handed it into the
0:20:13 > 0:20:18record company, we took that record back and worked for another year.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23It was good, but as I listened to it, it just didn't feel big enough.
0:20:23 > 0:20:29It didn't have the room to let in all of those different colours.
0:20:29 > 0:20:34On that particular record, I needed more time to let in all
0:20:34 > 0:20:37the colours and the feelings that I wanted to let in.
0:20:37 > 0:20:38It wasn't quite funky enough.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40It wasn't quite...
0:20:40 > 0:20:43It didn't have the looseness that...
0:20:44 > 0:20:47Darkness was a very tight, controlled record.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52We wanted to go the other way with this record.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55You know, the main thing we'd been continuing to hear was
0:20:55 > 0:20:59the records were still not a exciting as the live show.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08# Hey, hey, hey
0:21:08 > 0:21:12# What do you say Sherry darling? #
0:21:12 > 0:21:17Let me try and solve that problem if I can.
0:21:19 > 0:21:24This was the first record that Steve came in, officially, as producer.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29We were looking for an antidote to some of the sterility of what
0:21:29 > 0:21:32we thought that '70s recordings had at that time.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36The noise that creates mystery was being squeezed
0:21:36 > 0:21:43out of records for the purpose of gaining more control over the sound.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46It was a direction we didn't feel comfortable with.
0:21:46 > 0:21:53The records we liked were noisy records, whether it's Hound Dog...
0:21:53 > 0:21:59Dave Clark Five - Glad All Over, these were noisy, noisy records.
0:21:59 > 0:22:04We need THAT now. We need the noise of our live show.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33We got it off of Gary Bonds, you know, and
0:22:33 > 0:22:37the party noises that were on the great Gary Bonds records, you know?
0:22:40 > 0:22:44So we, sort of, took it from there and just said,
0:22:44 > 0:22:48"Yeah, these records just sound like a house party."
0:22:48 > 0:22:49We had four guys.
0:22:49 > 0:22:54Everybody was doing, once again, everybody was doing something,
0:22:54 > 0:22:55you know.
0:22:56 > 0:23:01Steve likes things to be kind of noisy and trashy and raw
0:23:01 > 0:23:03and exciting, you know.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07John enjoys the classical, sort of, formality.
0:23:07 > 0:23:12He likes clean records that are very well focused and he and Steve played
0:23:12 > 0:23:17off each other during this record, which is what I wanted them to do.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21You know, it might have been a little difficult for the two of them,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23but I wanted them to be...
0:23:23 > 0:23:27They're supposed to be at odds, to some degree.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30And so I would kind of set them up against one another and I would find
0:23:30 > 0:23:34my happy medium where I wanted the needle to sit
0:23:34 > 0:23:36on this particular album.
0:23:36 > 0:23:43That was the way I got the most out of the people that I had, you know.
0:23:43 > 0:23:44John is somebody like...
0:23:44 > 0:23:48If I wrote something like The River, I'd play it for him, you know.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54He would immediately, kind of, process it and say,
0:23:54 > 0:23:57"This is different than your other songs because..."
0:23:57 > 0:24:02That might then inspire me to go further in that direction.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07Charlie continued his position as a great technical adviser on how
0:24:07 > 0:24:11to get the kinds of sounds that we wanted to get.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13So I said, "Charlie, I want to get something very explosive.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16"Snare sound, I want the band to sound wild and kind of loose."
0:24:16 > 0:24:19We wanted to go back to the days when had a limited amount of control
0:24:19 > 0:24:22over the ambience in the room, you know,
0:24:22 > 0:24:26like when they recorded some of the Elvis things with a couple of mics.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29Once again, we were going by... We were playing it by ear,
0:24:29 > 0:24:31so some of those things worked out and some of those things
0:24:31 > 0:24:36created problems in the end, but we didn't have any rules.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38And we need, on this song, some slap back on the saxophone.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41At least up here, a little bit.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44A little effect on that saxophone.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51We recorded and recorded and recorded and we were in the studio
0:24:51 > 0:24:54day after day after day after day, you know.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58I probably worked the hardest on some of the things
0:24:58 > 0:24:59that ended up as outtakes.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03You never knew. You didn't know where it was going.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05I didn't know where it was going.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09# Take 'em as they come... #
0:25:09 > 0:25:12You think all of them are going to be on.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14When you're cutting that song, you think,
0:25:14 > 0:25:16"This is the one I've been waiting for."
0:25:16 > 0:25:18# Take them as they come
0:25:18 > 0:25:20# Take them as they come... #
0:25:20 > 0:25:26The outtakes on The River are very complexly arranged.
0:25:26 > 0:25:31There's a lot of singing, a lot of background vocal.
0:25:31 > 0:25:36I can remember being exasperated that we couldn't get it together
0:25:36 > 0:25:40to get something mixed or produce an album out of the
0:25:40 > 0:25:43reams and reams of material that we had.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46I had set myself up for certain standards
0:25:46 > 0:25:50and I just had to sit tight until I felt like I was there.
0:25:57 > 0:26:03Any time you're writing 70 songs, I've lost count how many,
0:26:03 > 0:26:06you're just searching for something. You're searching for something.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08I always say, "How did I end up making a record?"
0:26:08 > 0:26:12I finally came out with ten songs I can stand.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15I don't have the control that says,
0:26:15 > 0:26:19"OK, I have this, this is toned or there's this aesthetic.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21"I'm just going to write in this mind now."
0:26:21 > 0:26:25Usually, I mean, you may end up with something like that.
0:26:25 > 0:26:29You may end up with something very austere or something particular
0:26:29 > 0:26:33but I splashed on The River, I splashed around for a year to
0:26:33 > 0:26:36try and find out what that might be,
0:26:36 > 0:26:41so, I didn't have a lot of control over it, to be honest with you.
0:26:41 > 0:26:45Live, we'd play a wide variety of material from some jokey things,
0:26:45 > 0:26:49comedy things, to deadly serious things.
0:26:51 > 0:26:55Maybe I need the space to do that, you know? Maybe I need...
0:26:55 > 0:26:58I didn't... I don't believe I took the record back
0:26:58 > 0:27:01with the idea of making a double record, but,
0:27:01 > 0:27:06I had some ideas about what the record needed to contain.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10And I think the night that we said, "Well, we're making a double album,"
0:27:10 > 0:27:14that was a big leap forward as far as giving me the freedom to go
0:27:14 > 0:27:16where I needed to go.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23You know, I could stop worrying about taking space up with stuff
0:27:23 > 0:27:28that sounded like good bar band music, there was room for that
0:27:28 > 0:27:33and that was a big decision.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36MUSIC: Hungry Heart by Bruce Springsteen.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49The scope of the record was enough to contain an actual hit single
0:27:49 > 0:27:51which we had never had before.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56The canvas of the record was broad enough to go... To go there.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01I saw the Ramones at the Fast Lane, in Asbury Park
0:28:01 > 0:28:06and they were great and we went backstage and we sat around talking.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09I said, "I'll write these guys a song."
0:28:09 > 0:28:12I ended up writing Hungry Heart before I went to bed that night,
0:28:12 > 0:28:14you know.
0:28:14 > 0:28:18It was one of those songs where you write it in the time it takes
0:28:18 > 0:28:20you to sing it, practically.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40Yeah, well, I was trying to lay down all
0:28:40 > 0:28:47the variations on relationships, the various outcomes, I think.
0:28:47 > 0:28:48And so...
0:28:52 > 0:28:56So, the character, while he's going through something somewhat tragic,
0:28:56 > 0:28:59is whimsical about it, you know.
0:29:11 > 0:29:12That's funny.
0:29:13 > 0:29:18- # Everybody's got a hungry heart - Yeah, Yeah.
0:29:18 > 0:29:22# Everybody's got a hungry heart
0:29:22 > 0:29:27# Lay down your money and you play your part
0:29:27 > 0:29:32# Everybody's got a hungry heart... #
0:29:36 > 0:29:39He just thought with the heart of an accompanist.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42He never stepped on anybody's toes,
0:29:42 > 0:29:44he never got in the way of his singer.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47He was one of the most natural accompanists I ever heard.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51My recollection is he just went in,
0:29:51 > 0:29:55we sat at the B3 and it flew out of his fingers.
0:29:55 > 0:29:59The River was much more... A lot wider open.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01There was a lot of different kinds of things
0:30:01 > 0:30:02that were going to fit.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04You know, Cadillac Ranch, Sherry Darlin,
0:30:04 > 0:30:08they were going to fit on to the record, I decided.
0:30:08 > 0:30:12How I chose, in the end, you know, I could've...
0:30:12 > 0:30:15That was a record where I could've switched a lot of things around.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18A lot of the things that ended up as outtakes, easily could've made it
0:30:18 > 0:30:22on to the record or I could've taken some things on the record off.
0:30:54 > 0:31:01I know there's a lot of outtakes. I mean, obviously, you have Roulette.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04That was the big oversight.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07That was the one that, say, instead of Crush On You,
0:31:07 > 0:31:10Roulette should've got on the record.
0:31:10 > 0:31:12A lot of them got dumped.
0:31:12 > 0:31:16Loose Ends was on the first record, Be True was on the first record.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19They never made it to the second record.
0:31:20 > 0:31:21And I'm not sure why.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25I like all the outtakes from this record, but a lot of them
0:31:25 > 0:31:28seemed like they would be on a different record, you know.
0:31:30 > 0:31:34One of the things that represented the band as the glorified bar band
0:31:34 > 0:31:37that we are, I wanted to get that stuff on.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40And then I wanted to get.... Then I had a lot of ballads.
0:31:40 > 0:31:44The ballads were, kind of, the heart and soul of the record.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47Point Blank, Stolen Car,
0:31:47 > 0:31:51The River, Independence Day.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55Those are the ones that are very cinematic, but they're all slow.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57They're all slow, you know.
0:31:57 > 0:32:02And so you couldn't have that many slow songs on a single album.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06You had to spread it out over a couple of albums
0:32:06 > 0:32:10and then in turn, I was able to get fun things on.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12My trashy single sort of things.
0:32:12 > 0:32:17What the band did and that we needed for exciting live concerts.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21The end, the decision to take the record back, make a double album,
0:32:21 > 0:32:25allowed me to get closer to what I thought the fans were asking for.
0:32:25 > 0:32:30It was a record that felt like the band show live and allowed me
0:32:30 > 0:32:34to create a large canvas, where I could create the world that
0:32:34 > 0:32:38I wanted to talk to people about.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41# But there ain't no doubt, girl, down here
0:32:41 > 0:32:43# We ain't going to take what they're handing out
0:32:43 > 0:32:46# While I'm out in the street... #
0:32:46 > 0:32:51So, finally, when I went out on the road, it was enormous relief.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54# While I'm out in the street
0:32:54 > 0:32:58# I talk the way I want to talk
0:32:58 > 0:33:00# Out in the street... #
0:33:00 > 0:33:04I always said I felt River was...
0:33:04 > 0:33:08I, kind of, captured my characters, Independence Day,
0:33:08 > 0:33:11Point Blank, The River, Stolen Car
0:33:11 > 0:33:15and then I also gave them the music they were listening to
0:33:15 > 0:33:18when they went out at night in the bars or in the clubs.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23Out In The Street, it was like a Friday On My Mind.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27It was my rewrite of a weekend song.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41The minute you go to play live, everything expands.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43The minute you step out onto your...
0:33:43 > 0:33:47Before the audience comes in, you get the band together
0:33:47 > 0:33:51on the rehearsal stage and suddenly you hear the arrangements
0:33:51 > 0:33:57begin to blow up and expand into something that's going to reach out
0:33:57 > 0:34:00and grab the audience.
0:34:16 > 0:34:17The more formal sounds,
0:34:17 > 0:34:20you would tend to stick a little closer to the recorded
0:34:20 > 0:34:26arrangement and the more things that were based in soul or R&B
0:34:26 > 0:34:33or rockabilly, those were things that you could then take on stage
0:34:33 > 0:34:37and blow up into a showpiece.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44I studied the great bandleaders, as I have said in the past.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48Sam Moore from Sam & Dave, James Brown.
0:34:48 > 0:34:52They set the band up as an incredible, expressive
0:34:52 > 0:34:57extension of themselves so that the band could respond to every breath.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01That was what was exciting onstage.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05That was the essence of great band leading.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08I wanted to incorporate that into a rock show.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10# Shiny and black
0:35:10 > 0:35:13# Open it up
0:35:13 > 0:35:16# Now it's tearing up the highway like a big old dinosaur... #
0:35:25 > 0:35:31Because we had so many soul influences, that was...
0:35:31 > 0:35:33That was what we aspired to.
0:35:33 > 0:35:37We aspired to playing like these great bands, but as a rock band.
0:35:37 > 0:35:45THEY PLAY CADILLAC RANCH
0:35:53 > 0:35:56Part of our concerts, a lot of joy and a lot of fun.
0:35:57 > 0:35:58That was important.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Sometimes I'd write something just to hear Clarence play
0:36:04 > 0:36:06a particular type of solo.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09Big man!
0:36:12 > 0:36:17We were schooled on the sax solos from the Dion records.
0:36:17 > 0:36:21They were very, very specific, melodically.
0:36:21 > 0:36:25We wanted those kind of classic sax solos where you could
0:36:25 > 0:36:28come away humming them after you heard them a few times.
0:36:28 > 0:36:31The songs where you create a very kind of classic melody
0:36:31 > 0:36:34and it would be more of a composed, written piece,
0:36:34 > 0:36:37very similar to the way we built solos on
0:36:37 > 0:36:39Born To Run or Darkness On The Edge Of Town.
0:36:45 > 0:36:51The band was sophisticated by that point.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53People's playings had gotten...
0:36:53 > 0:36:58People playing in the band together had gotten very good
0:36:58 > 0:37:03and so it was a nice place in our development, also.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12That was... That was a powerful tour, The River tour.
0:37:12 > 0:37:17At the time, I was pouring through a variety of history books just
0:37:17 > 0:37:24to contextualise myself, understand where I came from
0:37:24 > 0:37:27and what that meant...
0:37:29 > 0:37:34And I wanted to write songs of breadth that had some breadth
0:37:34 > 0:37:38and depth to them and I wanted to write about the place I lived
0:37:38 > 0:37:41and wanted to write about my own history,
0:37:41 > 0:37:46the history of my family and I wanted to write about social forces
0:37:46 > 0:37:49that I felt played...
0:37:52 > 0:37:54Er, played through that history and...
0:37:58 > 0:38:01So I devoured quite a few history books at the time just trying
0:38:01 > 0:38:05to get a sense of where everything came from.
0:38:22 > 0:38:27You're brought in on a very late night, intimate conversation
0:38:27 > 0:38:33between two people, so that brings you in right away.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37# Papa, go to bed now it's getting late
0:38:37 > 0:38:41# Nothing we can say is gonna change anything now
0:38:43 > 0:38:50# I'll be leaving in the morning from St Mary's Gate
0:38:50 > 0:38:55# We wouldn't change this thing even if we could somehow
0:38:56 > 0:39:02# Cos the darkness of this house has got the best of us
0:39:02 > 0:39:07# There's a darkness in this town that's got us too
0:39:08 > 0:39:11# But they can't touch me now
0:39:11 > 0:39:14# And you can't touch me now
0:39:14 > 0:39:16# They ain't gonna do to me... #
0:39:16 > 0:39:20It was kind of a part of a series of songs I wrote about my dad that
0:39:20 > 0:39:24weren't completely autobiographical,
0:39:24 > 0:39:26but were pretty emotionally autobiographical.
0:39:26 > 0:39:32# It's Independence Day all down the line
0:39:34 > 0:39:38# Just say goodbye, it's Independence Day
0:39:38 > 0:39:42# It's Independence Day this time
0:39:45 > 0:39:50# Now I don't know what it always was with us
0:39:50 > 0:39:56# We chose the words, and yeah, we drew the lines
0:39:58 > 0:40:01# There was just no way this house could hold the two of us
0:40:03 > 0:40:08# I guess that we were just too much of the same kind
0:40:09 > 0:40:15# Well, say goodbye, it's Independence Day
0:40:15 > 0:40:20# All boys must run away come Independence Day
0:40:22 > 0:40:27# So say goodbye, it's Independence Day
0:40:27 > 0:40:32# All men must make their way come Independence Day... #
0:40:32 > 0:40:35He's leaving but he's looking for something, you know,
0:40:35 > 0:40:36he's leaving with purpose.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42You know, he's trying to find those things that give him impact
0:40:42 > 0:40:46and presence and mass, in the world.
0:40:46 > 0:40:50# Now the rooms are all empty down at Frankie's joint
0:40:53 > 0:40:57# And the highway she's deserted clear down to Breaker's Point
0:40:59 > 0:41:02# There's a lot of people leaving town now
0:41:02 > 0:41:05# Leaving their friends, their homes
0:41:05 > 0:41:11# At night they walk that dark and dusty highway all alone
0:41:13 > 0:41:16# Well, Papa go to bed now it's getting late
0:41:18 > 0:41:22# Nothing we can say can change anything now
0:41:24 > 0:41:27# Because there's just different people coming down here now
0:41:27 > 0:41:31# And they see things in different ways
0:41:31 > 0:41:37# And soon everything we've known will just be swept away
0:41:38 > 0:41:42# So say goodbye, it's Independence Day
0:41:44 > 0:41:49# Papa, now I know the things you wanted that you could not say
0:41:50 > 0:41:55# Say goodbye, it's Independence Day
0:41:55 > 0:42:00# I swear I never meant to take those things away. #
0:42:02 > 0:42:03It was just a discussion.
0:42:03 > 0:42:10You've reached some understanding of who your parents are and their
0:42:10 > 0:42:18humanity and you're alone, also, and you're going to take different paths.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21It is a song that's...
0:42:21 > 0:42:25It's quite without bitterness.
0:42:25 > 0:42:29Some regret and some sad understanding.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34And also the exhilaration of being cut free.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45It's always public and personal, I guess, simultaneously, for me.
0:42:45 > 0:42:50Erm, I don't ascribe to myself any great political
0:42:50 > 0:42:52conscience or social conscience, for that matter,
0:42:52 > 0:43:00and I always believe I'm trying to write my way out of some box
0:43:00 > 0:43:05that I've found myself caught in when I was younger and myself
0:43:05 > 0:43:07and my parents caught in.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10Really, most of the writing I've done,
0:43:10 > 0:43:13it's always personal in some way
0:43:13 > 0:43:17and then it connects to the outside world
0:43:17 > 0:43:23and connects to issues of the day, but it begins as a personal
0:43:23 > 0:43:30conversation between me and myself, about something that still is
0:43:30 > 0:43:34digging at me from either my past or the present.
0:43:42 > 0:43:48The idea of losing someone, you know, in that way.
0:43:49 > 0:43:51We all lost friends and partners.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00You know, somebody is there and then they're just gone, you know.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09That song makes its bones in the last verse.
0:44:11 > 0:44:17Where I think it really grabs... Grabs people.
0:44:17 > 0:44:21# Once I dreamed we were together again
0:44:21 > 0:44:23# Baby, you and me
0:44:25 > 0:44:30# Back home in those old clubs
0:44:30 > 0:44:32# The way we used to be
0:44:34 > 0:44:38# We were standin' at the bar, it was hard to hear
0:44:38 > 0:44:42# The band was playin' loud and you were shoutin' somethin' in my ear
0:44:44 > 0:44:48# You pulled my jacket off and as the drummer counted four
0:44:48 > 0:44:52# You grabbed my hand and pulled me out on the floor
0:44:52 > 0:44:57# You just stood there and we started dancin' slow
0:44:57 > 0:45:02# I pulled you tighter I swore I'd never let you go
0:45:02 > 0:45:06# Well, I saw you last night down on the avenue
0:45:07 > 0:45:11# Your face was in the shadows but I knew it was you
0:45:11 > 0:45:17# You were standin' in the doorway out of the rain
0:45:17 > 0:45:21# You didn't answer when I called out your name
0:45:21 > 0:45:25# You just turned and then you looked away
0:45:25 > 0:45:31# Like just another stranger waitin' to get blown away
0:45:31 > 0:45:33# Point blank
0:45:35 > 0:45:39# Right between the eyes
0:45:39 > 0:45:43# Baby, point blank
0:45:44 > 0:45:49# Right between the pretty lies they tell. #
0:45:53 > 0:45:55So that was just vivid, you know. And...
0:46:05 > 0:46:08Yeah, when I nailed that verse, I nailed the song.
0:46:09 > 0:46:14The four songs on the last side of the record, are all summational,
0:46:14 > 0:46:18they all... They all...
0:46:18 > 0:46:25are goodbyes in one style or another.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28It was one of those songs you wrote, didn't know what to do with.
0:46:28 > 0:46:30It seemed like a small piece.
0:46:30 > 0:46:37It was just this little jam and then it came up
0:46:37 > 0:46:39and ended up closing a record.
0:46:42 > 0:46:46It was, you know, love and death, life and death
0:46:46 > 0:46:47and I wanted the record to...
0:46:52 > 0:46:56..to break down to that at the end, at the very end.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58You have your love song - Drive All Night.
0:47:01 > 0:47:05And then there was just this quiet reckoning,
0:47:05 > 0:47:08that this character has internally.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11You know, with themselves on a...
0:47:13 > 0:47:19..on a particular evening when, kind of, the...
0:47:19 > 0:47:27What's at stake in life, is made vivid to them.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29You know. It's got that...
0:47:29 > 0:47:35# Last night I was out driving
0:47:38 > 0:47:44# Coming home at the end of the working day
0:47:47 > 0:47:51# I was riding alone through the drizzling rain
0:47:51 > 0:47:56# On a deserted stretch of a county two-lane
0:47:56 > 0:48:02# When I came upon a wreck on the highway
0:48:05 > 0:48:11# There was blood and glass all over
0:48:13 > 0:48:19# There was nobody there but me
0:48:22 > 0:48:26# As the rain tumbled down hard and cold
0:48:26 > 0:48:31# I seen a young man lying by the side of the road
0:48:31 > 0:48:38# He cried, "Mister, won't you help me please"
0:48:55 > 0:49:03# Ambulance finally came and took him to Riverside
0:49:05 > 0:49:12# I watched as they drove him away
0:49:14 > 0:49:18# And I thought of a girlfriend or a young wife
0:49:18 > 0:49:22# And a state trooper knocking in the middle of the night
0:49:22 > 0:49:28# To say, "Your baby died in a wreck on the highway"
0:49:32 > 0:49:37# Sometimes I sit up in the darkness
0:49:40 > 0:49:46# And I watch my baby as she sleeps
0:49:48 > 0:49:53# Then I climb in bed and I hold her tight
0:49:53 > 0:49:58# I just lay there awake in the middle of the night
0:49:58 > 0:50:03# Thinking 'bout the wreck on the highway. #
0:50:21 > 0:50:23So that was...
0:50:23 > 0:50:29I just wanted to leave the listeners with their thoughts, you know,
0:50:29 > 0:50:36that the stakes of the record boil down to life, death,
0:50:36 > 0:50:43love, you know, time, limited amount of time that you have.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51If felt right. It felt right.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02First record dealing with men, women, marriage, children,
0:51:02 > 0:51:06all the mundane things that turn life into life, you know.
0:51:07 > 0:51:15I think I was thinking about how to make these things more than
0:51:15 > 0:51:17aesthetic ideas in my own life, you know.
0:51:20 > 0:51:24You know, how do I practically...?
0:51:24 > 0:51:26How do I practically live life like this?
0:51:26 > 0:51:29You know, where I make the kind of connections that I'm very
0:51:29 > 0:51:33frightened of, but that I feel that if I don't make,
0:51:33 > 0:51:37I'm going to disappear or get lost, you know.
0:51:37 > 0:51:42The creative life, an imagined life is not a life.
0:51:45 > 0:51:49It's merely something you've created.
0:51:49 > 0:51:51It's merely a story, you know.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54A story is not a life. A story is just a story.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00So, I was trying to link this stuff up in a way where I thought
0:52:00 > 0:52:03I could save myself, you know...
0:52:05 > 0:52:08..from my darker inclinations...
0:52:13 > 0:52:17..by moving into an imagined community where people were
0:52:17 > 0:52:21struggling with all those things, in a very real way, you know.
0:52:21 > 0:52:25And that was the community that I created on The River.
0:52:51 > 0:52:54# You been hurt and you're all cried out, you say
0:52:54 > 0:52:59# You walk down the street pushing people outta your way
0:52:59 > 0:53:02# You packed your bags and all alone you wanna ride
0:53:02 > 0:53:06# You don't want nothing, don't need no-one by your side
0:53:06 > 0:53:13# You're walking tough, baby, but you're walking blind
0:53:13 > 0:53:16# To the ties that bind
0:53:16 > 0:53:24# The ties that bind
0:53:25 > 0:53:33# Now you can break the ties that bind
0:53:34 > 0:53:37# A cheap romance, you say it's all just a crush
0:53:37 > 0:53:41# You don't want nothing that anybody can touch
0:53:41 > 0:53:44# You're so afraid of being somebody's fool
0:53:44 > 0:53:48# Not walking tough, baby, not walking cool
0:53:48 > 0:53:54# You walk cool but, darling, can you walk the line
0:53:54 > 0:53:57# And face the ties that bind?
0:53:57 > 0:54:05# The ties that bind
0:54:05 > 0:54:11# Now you can break the ties that bind
0:54:14 > 0:54:18# Whoa, whoa, I
0:54:18 > 0:54:21# I'd rather feel the hurt inside
0:54:21 > 0:54:25# Yes, I would, darling, than know
0:54:25 > 0:54:28# Than know the emptiness your heart must hide
0:54:28 > 0:54:30# Yes, I would, darling
0:54:30 > 0:54:32# Yes, I would, darling
0:54:32 > 0:54:34# Yes, I would, baby
0:55:06 > 0:55:08Hey!
0:55:09 > 0:55:12# You sit and wonder just who's gonna stop the rain
0:55:12 > 0:55:16# Who'll ease the sadness who's gonna quiet your pain
0:55:16 > 0:55:20# It's a long dark highway and a thin white line
0:55:20 > 0:55:23# Connecting, baby, your heart to mine
0:55:23 > 0:55:29# You're running now but, darling, we will stand in time
0:55:29 > 0:55:32# To face the ties that bind
0:55:32 > 0:55:38# The ties that bind
0:55:39 > 0:55:47# Now you can break the ties that bind
0:55:47 > 0:55:53# You can't forsake the ties that bind
0:55:53 > 0:56:01# Whoa whoa whoa Whoa whoa whoa. #