0:00:02 > 0:00:05Contains very strong language from the start
0:00:34 > 0:00:39'O, God, grant us a vision of our city, fair as she might be.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46'A city of justice where none shall prey on others.
0:00:49 > 0:00:54'A city of plenty, where vice and poverty shall cease to fester.
0:00:57 > 0:01:04'A city of brotherhood, where all success shall be founded on service.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06'And honour shall be given to a nobleman alone.
0:01:09 > 0:01:15'A city of peace where order shall not rest on force
0:01:15 > 0:01:19'but on the love of all for the city.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24'A great mother of the common life and weal.'
0:01:24 > 0:01:29I don't see this as the story of a pop group,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33I see this as the story of a city that, once upon a time,
0:01:33 > 0:01:39was shiny and bold and revolutionary and then suddenly,
0:01:39 > 0:01:4330 odd years later, is shiny and revolutionary all over again.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46And at the heart of this transformation
0:01:46 > 0:01:50is a bunch of groups, and one group in particular.
0:01:50 > 0:01:55'Go further back in time. Further back through time
0:01:55 > 0:01:58'to another set of memories.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00'Tell me what you see.
0:02:00 > 0:02:05'Five, four, three, two, one.'
0:02:09 > 0:02:13I can remember very precisely what Manchester was like in the mid-70s.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15It felt like a piece of history
0:02:15 > 0:02:17that had been spat out.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19This had been the historic centre of the modern world.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22We invented the Industrial Revolution in this town
0:02:22 > 0:02:25and yet, even though we did, we also invented these conditions.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31It was really grimy and dirty.
0:02:31 > 0:02:32Dirty old town.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48You were always looking for beauty because it was such an ugly place.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Whether, again, on a subconscious level.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54I mean, I don't think I saw a tree till I was about nine.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58'Here are your playgrounds, your porches and sunloungers
0:02:58 > 0:03:00'and whatever else you can use them for.'
0:03:00 > 0:03:04I just remember factories, nothing that was pretty, nothing.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15I remember the first time in Manchester
0:03:15 > 0:03:17seeing all these houses...
0:03:17 > 0:03:18End-to-end terraced houses.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23And then the next time you went, there was just a pile of rubble.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27Then the next time you went, it was sort of like all this building work
0:03:27 > 0:03:32and then by the time you were in your teens, it was this big
0:03:32 > 0:03:36concrete fortress. Quite futuristic at the time.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42And then, of course, concrete can set in and it looks horrible.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54I was born in 1956.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56I lived in my grandparents' house
0:03:56 > 0:03:58and they used to talk about the war all the time.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02My grandparents, since we'd been bombed... House had gone.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06I remember we had a room there and it was full of like gas masks
0:04:06 > 0:04:10and tin helmets, British flags, you know, old radio sets,
0:04:10 > 0:04:13paraphernalia for the war.
0:04:13 > 0:04:19Er, I met Bernard in Salford Grammar School when we were 11.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21You get less for murder, don't you?
0:04:21 > 0:04:24I guess, living in Salford, you're a bit of a nobody, really.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27You know, you didn't have much chance of progressing
0:04:27 > 0:04:30in the world, really. You were thought of as factory fodder.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33So, erm, we just sort of wasted our time together.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36We were really, really normal daft beer boys,
0:04:36 > 0:04:38I suppose you'd have to say.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42I had to have myriad distractions while I was working
0:04:42 > 0:04:44and basically it was reading the Evening News.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47When I was going through the little adverts and the classifieds
0:04:47 > 0:04:49and just scanning them for anything of interest.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52The Sex Pistols, 50p, Lesser Free Trade Hall.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I thought, "That looks interesting."
0:05:02 > 0:05:07MUSIC: Pretty Vacant by Sex Pistols
0:05:16 > 0:05:19Er, I thought it was shite. It was like a car crash.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21It was like, "Oh, my God!" I'd never seen anything like it in me life.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25I mean, I'd been to see most groups. You know, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin
0:05:25 > 0:05:27but I'd never seen anything as chaotic
0:05:27 > 0:05:31or as exciting and as...
0:05:31 > 0:05:32rebellious.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34It was how I felt.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36You know, you just wanted to trash everything.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39It was a right racket, you know, and you just thought, "Fucking hell,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43"I could do that." You know, "I could just about do that."
0:05:43 > 0:05:46We'd formed a band, then, that night. There and then, we formed a group.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48It's easy to form a group.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52It's all the rest that's difficult. We went to see the second
0:05:52 > 0:05:54Sex Pistols gig when the Buzzcocks supported them.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58And we were in it then.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03We had a meeting with them on Friday evening because they said,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06"But we'd like to start a band but we need some help,"
0:06:06 > 0:06:09and because, like I say, punk being an inclusive thing and we needed
0:06:09 > 0:06:13all the similar-minded people that we could have,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16you know, to make it a growing concern.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19- We advertised for a drummer and singer. - PHONE RINGS
0:06:19 > 0:06:24One guy rang up and he didn't sound mad and I said, "What's your name?"
0:06:24 > 0:06:28He went, "Ian." I said, "Ian who?" "Ian Curtis." I said
0:06:28 > 0:06:31"Oh." Because there was two guys called 'the two Ians'.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34We advertised for a singer and Ian answered it
0:06:34 > 0:06:35and we met in the pub in Sale.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37To look at him you think, "Christ, you know,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39"quite frightening looking guy."
0:06:39 > 0:06:41Leather pants and combat jacket with HATE on the back getting
0:06:41 > 0:06:44daggers from the locals saying, "What the hell is this? What's he?"
0:06:44 > 0:06:47Pretty dangerous thing to do in 1976 in Manchester.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49I said, "Oh, the two Ians? Right, we met you
0:06:49 > 0:06:51"at the Clash gig the other day,"
0:06:51 > 0:06:55- or whatever, you know.- And I was going, you know, the punk ideals...
0:06:55 > 0:06:57I went, "Being married? Boring." He went, "I'm married."
0:06:57 > 0:07:00You know, he shows me his wedding ring.
0:07:00 > 0:07:01We thought, "He's such a nice guy."
0:07:01 > 0:07:03We thought, "Oh, yeah, it doesn't matter."
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Like, "Yeah, that's me, that's me." I said, "All right.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08"Yeah, yeah, all right, you've got the job."
0:07:08 > 0:07:09And that was it, over the phone.
0:07:22 > 0:07:28The first set of material we wrote was just us aping punk, really.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31Completely aping it, doing it really badly.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35MUSIC: You're No Good For Me by Warsaw (Joy Division)
0:07:41 > 0:07:43# Don't know what I'm doing Don't know where I'm going
0:07:43 > 0:07:46# Leading me to ruin I should have traded you in
0:07:46 > 0:07:49# Yeah, you think you're something but you're no good for me. #
0:07:51 > 0:07:54# Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck off, fuck off!
0:07:54 > 0:07:56# Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bollocks, bollocks. #
0:07:56 > 0:07:59You know, these really dreadful...
0:08:03 > 0:08:05Dreadful, dreadful songs.
0:08:05 > 0:08:06# No good!
0:08:06 > 0:08:08# Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na
0:08:08 > 0:08:09# No good! #
0:08:16 > 0:08:20I get on the phone expecting some sort of oafish...
0:08:21 > 0:08:24- ..punk type... - HE GRUNTS
0:08:24 > 0:08:25..and it was a very mild-mannered,
0:08:25 > 0:08:27very chatty Ian.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32The first gig that I had with them,
0:08:32 > 0:08:35was the last night of the Electric Circus.
0:08:37 > 0:08:43The Electric Circus was one of the places that we hired
0:08:43 > 0:08:47from bemused hippies on their quiet night
0:08:47 > 0:08:51to put on emerging punk rock.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54'Can you explain to me why you come to the Electric Circus?'
0:08:54 > 0:08:56Cos it's the best place where they put punk rock bands on.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58Cos it's got a great atmosphere.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01He looks like he's just come out of Risley for the day, don't he?
0:09:01 > 0:09:02He wouldn't go and see it, I tell ya.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05- ..bottles for plastic punks... - LAUGHTER
0:09:05 > 0:09:07I wanted to do something for me,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10because look at me now, I'm nothing.
0:09:10 > 0:09:11That's what punk is.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13You can sort of go in and really enjoy yourself,
0:09:13 > 0:09:16you know, jump about a bit, let yourself go. Why not?
0:09:16 > 0:09:17It became a punk club
0:09:17 > 0:09:21and absolutely a very important part of the whole landscape.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23And then suddenly we were saying goodbye to it
0:09:23 > 0:09:26in an emotional weekend do, that was recorded
0:09:26 > 0:09:28rather pitifully by Virgin Records.
0:09:30 > 0:09:31CHANTING
0:09:34 > 0:09:36And, yeah, the Warsaw
0:09:36 > 0:09:39and the 'remember Rudolf Hess' thing,
0:09:39 > 0:09:40and all that kind of nonsense.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44At the time, whenever any of that happened, those of us within it
0:09:44 > 0:09:46had not a moment's doubt
0:09:46 > 0:09:48that it was anything dicey.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51You know, you just sort of trusted somehow
0:09:51 > 0:09:54the instincts of locals that it was not dicey.
0:09:54 > 0:09:55# Can't buy everything, that's true
0:09:55 > 0:09:57# Only one thing wrong with that
0:09:57 > 0:09:59# What it don't buy I don't use. #
0:10:09 > 0:10:13Some guy at work gave me a couple of books.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15One was called House Of Dolls
0:10:15 > 0:10:17and I knew it was about the Nazis
0:10:17 > 0:10:19but I didn't read it.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21And I just flicked through the pages.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24It was the brothel that the soldiers went to,
0:10:24 > 0:10:27and I thought, "Well, it's pretty bad taste
0:10:27 > 0:10:31"but it's quite punk".
0:10:31 > 0:10:33And everyone I told the name to
0:10:33 > 0:10:36went, "That's a great name".
0:10:36 > 0:10:37It sounds too neat and tidy,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40but it almost seems to be that it all came when they had the name.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49It was like Roxy Music or Velvet Underground, you know,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52you knew instantly from the moment it happened, it was one of those names.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55At that stage, when we made our first record,
0:10:55 > 0:10:56An Ideal For Living,
0:10:56 > 0:10:58we just were making this music
0:10:58 > 0:11:00and we wanted people to hear it.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04And it was very much a punk ethos of do-it-yourself, independence,
0:11:04 > 0:11:06forget big labels,
0:11:06 > 0:11:08just small, you know, cottage industries.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22I'd actually forgotten that Ian borrowed the money.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26God, if I did it now, my wife would kill me.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28So, how he got away with it then
0:11:28 > 0:11:29is unbelievable, you know.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32So, we banged it down, heard it in the studio,
0:11:32 > 0:11:34we thought it sounded great.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37You know, a couple of weeks later, we got the vinyl.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39You know, An Ideal For Living,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42I'd drawn the sleeve and that.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44"Right, I know what we'll do, we'll take it to Pips,
0:11:44 > 0:11:46"that local club that we go to."
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Went to the DJ, "Here you are, mate, play our record.
0:11:50 > 0:11:51"It's us, you know, us."
0:11:51 > 0:11:53So, he said, "No, fuck off."
0:11:53 > 0:11:54We were like, "No, come on, it's us.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56"We've been coming here for years, play it."
0:11:56 > 0:11:58So, there's loads of people on the dance floor,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00puts it on and we're like that,
0:12:00 > 0:12:01"Listen to it."
0:12:01 > 0:12:04And the pressing was so bad
0:12:04 > 0:12:07it was like completely muffled.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10So quiet that you wouldn't believe it.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12And it just cleared the dance floor.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Everyone just walked off
0:12:15 > 0:12:17and he took it off halfway through.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20We were like, "Oh, shit.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22"What have we done?"
0:12:22 > 0:12:24We didn't play for six months, we couldn't get a gig.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27Nobody would give us a gig as Joy Division.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29It was really difficult.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31I think they thought we were yobs, which we were.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35It spurred us on to rehearse and rehearse and rehearse,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38and write and write and write, and get really, really tight,
0:12:38 > 0:12:40so that when we did get a gig,
0:12:40 > 0:12:41we would show the bastards.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43We used to rehearse twice a week,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46and in those three and two hours,
0:12:46 > 0:12:49you'd invariably get a song, you know.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50One!
0:12:50 > 0:12:53We had an enormous factory floor to ourselves.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57In the winter, we used to just brush all the rubbish
0:12:57 > 0:13:00to one end of the room and set fire to it to just keep warm in it.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07We were all on our own island,
0:13:07 > 0:13:09what we were doing,
0:13:09 > 0:13:14and we just really made sure that what WE were doing sounded great,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17and sort of didn't pay any attention to what the others were doing.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19When I played low, I couldn't hear anything at all.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22When I played high I could pick it out, cos of the row,
0:13:22 > 0:13:24cos Barney's amp was really loud.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Then Ian just latched onto you playing high
0:13:27 > 0:13:29and he'd say, "That sounds good when you play high
0:13:29 > 0:13:31"and Barney plays guitar," you know.
0:13:31 > 0:13:32We should work on that,
0:13:32 > 0:13:34that sounds really distinctive.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38Just a happy accident like that gave us our sound, you know.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Ian always had a box of words
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and he would just pull some words out
0:13:45 > 0:13:48and start signing them, so he already had them, really,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51cos he would be at home writing every night anyway.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54They had like a battle of the bands night for young bands
0:13:54 > 0:13:56that were just starting out, you know.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04I remember Paul Morley being there in a band,
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Kevin Cummins was in his band,
0:14:06 > 0:14:07I think Richard Boon was in it.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10It was like a joke band, you know, they were having a laugh.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14And everybody, including Joy Division, turned up to be...
0:14:15 > 0:14:18You know, to win, like some weird prototype X Factor.
0:14:18 > 0:14:20This was when I first the other side of Ian.
0:14:20 > 0:14:25Ian was a really lovely, really nice, polite, intelligent guy,
0:14:25 > 0:14:28but if he didn't get what he wanted through being like that,
0:14:28 > 0:14:32he would explode into this kind of frenzied, "Argh!"
0:14:32 > 0:14:33You know, frenzied thing,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36because that's the only way he could get what he wanted.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39I remember him kicking the door down to their dressing room
0:14:39 > 0:14:41and going to Paul Morley and Kevin Cummins,
0:14:41 > 0:14:43they were going, "You're not fucking going on."
0:14:43 > 0:14:45"Right, you're not fucking going on. We'll kill you.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47"If you go on, we'll bottle you."
0:14:47 > 0:14:50"We're going on."
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Ian had previously gone up earlier in the night
0:14:52 > 0:14:53to Tony Wilson to complain.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Called him a "Cunt", you know,
0:14:55 > 0:14:57he says, "You're a cunt, you."
0:14:57 > 0:14:59Tony was like, "Why, darling?
0:14:59 > 0:15:00"What have I done, darling?"
0:15:00 > 0:15:02And he'd be like, "Well, you won't put us on your..."
0:15:02 > 0:15:05Tony had a TV programme then.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09I didn't answer him, but I know I remember thinking, you know,
0:15:09 > 0:15:11"You're next in the list, you fucking idiot."
0:15:11 > 0:15:13I spend a lot of my days working out how
0:15:13 > 0:15:16I could possibly explain to people how bizarre this is
0:15:16 > 0:15:19that this man would suddenly come to be involved.
0:15:19 > 0:15:20'Tony Wilson reports.'
0:15:20 > 0:15:23The Southwark, Lambeth and Lewisham area health authority
0:15:23 > 0:15:26is the largest single health authority in the country.
0:15:26 > 0:15:27Welcome to the circus.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36He was like seeing an alien with tentacles and eight eyes,
0:15:36 > 0:15:39really, when I first met Tony Wilson, he was just like from another planet.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42He was showbiz, wasn't he, you know? He was a star.
0:15:42 > 0:15:43Tony had So It Goes,
0:15:43 > 0:15:45one of the only platforms
0:15:45 > 0:15:48that championed punk and the new wave.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50And that was wonderful.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53And, strangely, a champion within the establishment.
0:15:53 > 0:15:54There's nothing more establishment,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56particularly to young people, than television.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59Every other band that night at Rafters
0:15:59 > 0:16:02was on stage because they wanted to be on stage,
0:16:02 > 0:16:03they wanted to be rock stars,
0:16:03 > 0:16:05they wanted to be in the music business,
0:16:05 > 0:16:07but this lot were on stage
0:16:07 > 0:16:09cos they had no fucking choice.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13The next day, I remember being in a phone booth
0:16:13 > 0:16:14in Spring Gardens in Manchester,
0:16:14 > 0:16:17just outside the post office there.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19There was a knock on the booth,
0:16:19 > 0:16:21I opened the door, "Yeah?"
0:16:21 > 0:16:23This guy stood there and it was Rob Gretton.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27I knew Rob Gretton because he was one of the other DJs at Rafters.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31I just have this picture in my mind, I can still see,
0:16:31 > 0:16:33of him ranting at me ecstatically
0:16:33 > 0:16:35about how wonderful he thought they were,
0:16:35 > 0:16:38and, "Weren't they the best band you'd ever seen in your life?"
0:16:38 > 0:16:40And he was going to manage them,
0:16:40 > 0:16:42and he was going to take them
0:16:42 > 0:16:44to all sorts of places you wouldn't believe.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48One of the first things that Rob Gretton did when he came along...
0:16:49 > 0:16:52..was he said, "That fucking record you've done..."
0:16:52 > 0:16:54He said, "Get rid of that fucking cover,
0:16:54 > 0:16:56"everyone thinks you're Nazis cos of it.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57"Get rid of that fucking cover.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00"Whose idea was that, you tosser?" You know.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02"So, we're going to do a new cover
0:17:02 > 0:17:04"and were going to press it as a 12 inch so it sounds loud."
0:17:04 > 0:17:06So, he did it and we played it,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09and then it was like, "Wow! He's right, yeah, it sounds fantastic."
0:17:09 > 0:17:12# No love lost
0:17:12 > 0:17:14# No love lost. #
0:17:27 > 0:17:31When he was DJing, I mean, he was playing soul music, I think,
0:17:31 > 0:17:35but his ideology was really punk.
0:17:36 > 0:17:40We'd met a guy called Richard Searling from RCA records.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44Ian was a regular visitor to the RCA offices.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47The main reason for that was that he adored Iggy Pop,
0:17:47 > 0:17:49and they wanted a punk band.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51A punk band.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53I didn't know anybody other than...
0:17:53 > 0:17:55"Oh, Ian's got a band."
0:17:55 > 0:17:59He wanted us to do a cover version of this Northern Soul record
0:17:59 > 0:18:01called Keep On Keepin' On,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04which when he played it to us, we were quite impressed with actually.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07It had a really stonking guitar riff in it.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10MUSIC: Keep On Keepin' On by Nolan Porter
0:18:29 > 0:18:31I think the engineer must have been pretty good.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36I can always remember he tried to get Ian to sound like James Brown.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Telling him to sing like James Brown.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42He just got a bottle of whisky and... Plying him with whisky
0:18:42 > 0:18:45and telling him to belt it out like James Brown,
0:18:45 > 0:18:48and it's not the way really.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52He just kind of got very fractious and started yelping like a dog,
0:18:52 > 0:18:55and decided we best take him home.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25Punk enabled you to say, "Fuck you."
0:19:27 > 0:19:31But somehow, it couldn't go any further, it was just a single,
0:19:31 > 0:19:34venomous, one syllable, two syllable phrase of anger,
0:19:34 > 0:19:37which was necessary to reignite rock and roll.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39But sooner or later,
0:19:39 > 0:19:42someone was going to want to say more than "fuck you."
0:19:42 > 0:19:45Someone was going to want to say, "I'm fucked."
0:19:45 > 0:19:48And it was Joy Division who were the first band to do that,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51to use the energy and simplicity of punk
0:19:51 > 0:19:54to express more complex emotions.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56Seeing as how this is the programme
0:19:56 > 0:19:57which previously brought you
0:19:57 > 0:19:59first television appearances
0:19:59 > 0:20:01from everything from The Beatles to the Buzzcocks,
0:20:01 > 0:20:03we do like to keep our hand in and keep you informed
0:20:03 > 0:20:06of the most interesting new sounds in the North West.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09This - Joy Division - is the most interesting new sound
0:20:09 > 0:20:11we've come across in the last six months.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13They're a Manchester band, with the exception of the guitarist,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16who comes from Salford. Very important difference.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19They're called Joy Division. This number is Shadowplay.
0:21:00 > 0:21:05# To the centre of the city where all roads meet, waiting for you
0:21:07 > 0:21:11# To the depths of the ocean where all hopes sank, searching for you
0:21:14 > 0:21:19# Moving through the silence without motion, waiting for you
0:21:20 > 0:21:26# In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth... #
0:21:44 > 0:21:46When Tony started doing the Factory nights, there was
0:21:46 > 0:21:49always this kind of void.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53There was the band, then there was nothing
0:21:53 > 0:21:58and then there was some people, sort of lurking.
0:21:58 > 0:22:03Second time, the sort of void was getting sort of narrower and
0:22:03 > 0:22:08narrower, so that eventually there was even the odd person dancing.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Wahey, we've got an audience now.
0:22:10 > 0:22:15I saw them and I was just absolutely astounded. It was unbelievably good.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17And I felt so in awe of somebody I knew.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20Ian's just there and he starts that dance.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Which I'd seen the very, kind of, like, seize of.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25And it was otherworldly.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29And I'm thinking, "This is Ian, who kind of buys flowers for his wife."
0:22:30 > 0:22:32And he's up on stage and it's...
0:22:34 > 0:22:37..totally inspirational and hypnotic. And I am...
0:22:38 > 0:22:41I'm sold to it. I've bought it. Totally.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49# To the centre of the city where all roads meet, waiting for you
0:22:51 > 0:22:55# To the depths of the ocean where all hopes sank, searching for you
0:22:57 > 0:23:02# I was moving through the silence without motion, waiting for you
0:23:03 > 0:23:08# In a room with a window in the corner, I found truth... #
0:23:22 > 0:23:24You would just be drawn into it.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27It functioned like those shaman things do.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30You're just kind of pulled into the moment.
0:23:30 > 0:23:31A very interesting band about time,
0:23:31 > 0:23:34because they're very informed by the past,
0:23:34 > 0:23:38but also you're always propelled into just a moment of present with them.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Time sort of stops.
0:23:41 > 0:23:46# In the shadowplay, acting out your own death, knowing no more... #
0:23:46 > 0:23:49They were just absolutely stunning. I couldn't believe it.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51I'm getting real goose bumps now,
0:23:51 > 0:23:53because I can remember it,
0:23:53 > 0:23:55but not in my head, in my stomach.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58This just got me there, you know... Just BOOF!
0:24:00 > 0:24:04# But I could only stare in disbelief as the crowds all left... #
0:24:09 > 0:24:11We were only originally going to have two songs.
0:24:11 > 0:24:17And then do a short film about what was happening within Manchester with
0:24:17 > 0:24:23Anderton, who was a very right wing and very vociferous Chief Constable.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25He believed he spoke directly to God every night.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27He believed that God sent him messages.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29And it felt really, genuinely threatening.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32It felt like there was a bad moon rising.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35It felt like there was bad shit on the way.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Well, there was, actually. The sewers were up at the time.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45A great metaphor for whatever the fuck was going on.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48And then you had the looming Thatcher thing creating this
0:24:48 > 0:24:51consumerist/fascist society.
0:24:51 > 0:24:54And then we cut to, if you like, the underground
0:24:54 > 0:24:58feel of the rehearsal rooms, where it's almost like a resistance group.
0:24:58 > 0:25:02That was the idea to get across, that this was a resistance.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05Through art and culture.
0:25:07 > 0:25:13When Tony sat with Alan and I for Christmas '78, and said...
0:25:14 > 0:25:18"I think we might...or we could do a record from the club for the
0:25:18 > 0:25:22"bands that haven't got contracts yet." This was just like...
0:25:23 > 0:25:25..terribly, terribly exciting.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28Suddenly we had a producer, and his name was Martin Hannett.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37Why?
0:25:38 > 0:25:40Oh, right.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51So what was the first thing you did for them... Ideal for them?
0:26:04 > 0:26:07# Feel it closing in
0:26:07 > 0:26:09# Feel it closing in
0:26:09 > 0:26:12# The fear of whom I call
0:26:12 > 0:26:15# Every time I call
0:26:15 > 0:26:17# Feel it closing in
0:26:17 > 0:26:20# Feel it closing in
0:26:20 > 0:26:23# Day in, day out Day in, day out
0:26:23 > 0:26:26# Day in, day out Day in, day out
0:26:26 > 0:26:29# Day in, day out Day in, day out... #
0:26:30 > 0:26:37The lyrics of Digital are actually digital.
0:26:37 > 0:26:43There's on-off, day in, day out, day in, day out. They're switching.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46There's also, somehow...
0:26:46 > 0:26:48Weirdly related to
0:26:48 > 0:26:52Curtis's persona itself.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56Which, as we know now, is bipolar.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00On the one hand, we have the lad going down the pub with his mates,
0:27:00 > 0:27:01fooling around.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05On the other hand, we have the aesthete who's reading poetry
0:27:05 > 0:27:09and imbibing himself with all kinds of highfalutin ideas
0:27:09 > 0:27:12that he's going to be a romantic pop star hero.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17Ian just looks straight into the camera while he's smoking.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21It's the eyes, like, the translucency of his eyes
0:27:21 > 0:27:24looking into the camera that sends a chill through people.
0:27:27 > 0:27:3316, 17, 18, 20 and 21 - we are getting there.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35One was in silhouette and there was one
0:27:35 > 0:27:39when they came slightly out of the passageway and we got some sidelines.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44Already, by then, I've shot two thirds of a roll of film
0:27:44 > 0:27:49and I'm conscious of the fact that I didn't really think I had anything.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52I'm walking up the bridge and they're waiting for me.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55And I just felt it looked so bleak and they were
0:27:55 > 0:27:58so un-rock 'n' roll-like
0:27:58 > 0:28:01that I took two frames and then took an upright shot
0:28:01 > 0:28:04of the same thing. And that's all I did of that picture.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07And that's, I guess,
0:28:07 > 0:28:11become probably the most recognised Joy Division image.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24The whole idea was to get your band signed to a major.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26And I was sitting in The Band On The Wall
0:28:26 > 0:28:28one Sunday night with Gretton,
0:28:28 > 0:28:31who suddenly turns to me and goes...
0:28:31 > 0:28:33"Why don't we do our first album with you and then
0:28:33 > 0:28:36"go to Warner Brothers?" I remember far from being,
0:28:36 > 0:28:39"Wow," it was like, "Are you sure? How much is that going to cost?"
0:28:39 > 0:28:42"Martin says it will cost 10 grand." It cost 25, the bastard.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59With Unknown Pleasures, I think we had three weekends.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02Could be wrong, but I think it was three weekends to record
0:29:02 > 0:29:04and mix it.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06So we'd played them all live, so the first thing
0:29:06 > 0:29:10we did with Martin was to just get them recorded in the studio.
0:29:10 > 0:29:12And then it would be experimentation time
0:29:12 > 0:29:14and he'd start putting wacky noises on it.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16Like, he recorded a lift shaft.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23It was kind of like you were going on some sort of strange
0:29:23 > 0:29:27science fiction-based journey.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29There was a lot of pot smoked.
0:29:29 > 0:29:34He wouldn't say to you, "I want you to do it like this."
0:29:34 > 0:29:40It was kind of, "Oh, do it again, but a bit more cocktail party."
0:29:40 > 0:29:43Or, "A bit more yellow."
0:29:43 > 0:29:46- "Magnificent but humble." - "Faster but slower."
0:29:46 > 0:29:47Whether it was pot
0:29:47 > 0:29:51or whether it was the Zen school of production, I don't know.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53- 'Are we all ready?'- 'Let's try one!'
0:29:55 > 0:29:58LAUGHING: 'You fucking prick.'
0:29:58 > 0:30:01- 'He's a United fan.'- 'Fuck off, Ian.'
0:30:01 > 0:30:05Memorably, he had the AMS - a digital delay line.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09You press the button and then hit the snare drum. You go... Oh!
0:30:09 > 0:30:12There's my snare drums in the box now. How have you done that,
0:30:12 > 0:30:13Martin? That's amazing.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17It was using that machine that Martin changed drum sounds forever.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19But I never knew that Martin was significantly
0:30:19 > 0:30:22involved in creating the machine.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26These two strange whizz kids from AMS,
0:30:26 > 0:30:31Burnley, Lancashire, England, had discovered Hannett and...
0:30:31 > 0:30:33once a month, they would meet him
0:30:33 > 0:30:36in a car park on top of the moors in between Manchester and Burnley.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38And this lunatic...
0:30:38 > 0:30:39GUNSHOT
0:30:39 > 0:30:43..stroke drug addict would clamber out of his old Volvo,
0:30:43 > 0:30:47into the back of their car, and would rabbit on for 30 minutes
0:30:47 > 0:30:50about the sounds he was imagining in his head.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53Now this is possibly heresy.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55I think Martin
0:30:55 > 0:30:59proposed a way to understand Joy Division.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02He heard something, he saw something,
0:31:02 > 0:31:04he felt something from them...
0:31:06 > 0:31:11..and was able to project in his mind what it could be.
0:31:11 > 0:31:13Well, the songs were great anyway.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Martin didn't write them. He only produced them.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19He started, you know, chipping in when we needed him,
0:31:19 > 0:31:22but that's the job of a producer anyway, really.
0:31:22 > 0:31:23I just remember the whole...
0:31:23 > 0:31:25The sleeve, you know,
0:31:25 > 0:31:27it was just an uncanny moment,
0:31:27 > 0:31:29because it did belong in your collection,
0:31:29 > 0:31:31next to Roxy Music, next to Velvet
0:31:31 > 0:31:34and it didn't look wrong next to, you know, Diamond Dogs.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36It was a great piece of work,
0:31:36 > 0:31:39but it didn't borrow any of that language, any of that visual language.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43It was totally itself and it couldn't work out how, where it had come from.
0:31:43 > 0:31:45I made the cover
0:31:45 > 0:31:47that I would've wanted
0:31:47 > 0:31:50had I found it in a record rack.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53And nobody, um...
0:31:53 > 0:31:56obliged me to do otherwise.
0:31:56 > 0:31:57Hadn't heard the music.
0:31:57 > 0:32:02They'd given me the elements. I mean, the wave pattern is astonishing.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04I mean, I mean, what an amazing image
0:32:04 > 0:32:06for something called Unknown Pleasures.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09HEARTBEAT AND DISTORTED SOUNDS
0:32:09 > 0:32:11I took it to Rob's house.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14I took the artwork to Rob...
0:32:14 > 0:32:16..and he said, "I have a test pressing."
0:32:16 > 0:32:17"Do you want to listen to it?"
0:32:17 > 0:32:21I didn't know if I could sit through 40 minutes of Joy Division.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23Especially in front of their manager!
0:32:24 > 0:32:26Um...
0:32:26 > 0:32:28but I couldn't really say no.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31And within moments,
0:32:31 > 0:32:36I knew that I had a part in a kind of life-changing experience.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42Minute after minute was beyond anything...
0:32:42 > 0:32:43I could've expected.
0:32:45 > 0:32:46It was just...
0:32:46 > 0:32:48beyond.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49It was astonishing.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51Just as soon as it started
0:32:51 > 0:32:54and the drums sounded like no drums had ever sounded
0:32:54 > 0:32:57and everything seemed to belong in its own space
0:32:57 > 0:33:00and not quite connecting somehow, something amazing had happened.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04MUSIC: Disorder by Joy Division
0:33:23 > 0:33:25# I've been waiting For a guide to come
0:33:25 > 0:33:26# And take me by the hand
0:33:28 > 0:33:32# Could these sensations make me Feel the pleasures of a normal man?
0:33:34 > 0:33:37# These sensations barely interest me For another day
0:33:39 > 0:33:42# I've got the spirit Lose the feeling
0:33:42 > 0:33:43# Take the shock away. #
0:33:48 > 0:33:52When Unknown Pleasures came out, it was sort of like,
0:33:52 > 0:33:55this is the ambient music from my environment.
0:33:55 > 0:33:59My thing about Joy Division - they're an ambient band, almost.
0:33:59 > 0:34:02You don't see them function as a band,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05it's just the noise around where you are.
0:34:05 > 0:34:08It was almost like a science-fiction interpretation of Manchester.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12You could recognise the landscape, the mindscape and the soundscape as being Manchester.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14It was extraordinary that they'd managed to...
0:34:14 > 0:34:18make Manchester international, if you like, make Manchester cosmic.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21# It's getting faster Moving faster now
0:34:21 > 0:34:23# It's getting out of hand
0:34:24 > 0:34:26# On the 10th floor Down the back stairs
0:34:26 > 0:34:28# It's a no man's land
0:34:30 > 0:34:32# Lights are flashing Cars are crashing
0:34:32 > 0:34:34# Getting frequent now
0:34:35 > 0:34:38# I've got the spirit Lose the feeling
0:34:38 > 0:34:41# Let it out somehow. #
0:34:45 > 0:34:50Unknown Pleasures is also of course a very iPod-ed kind of world.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53It's urban, but it's not.
0:34:53 > 0:34:57It's about a landscape.
0:34:57 > 0:35:02But that landscape is primarily an interior landscape,
0:35:02 > 0:35:08and so what is very, very important about it now
0:35:08 > 0:35:14is to see where we've travelled from since then
0:35:14 > 0:35:20and exactly why it still sounds so bloody contemporary.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30# Who is right and who can tell and who gives a damn right now?
0:35:32 > 0:35:36# Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know
0:35:38 > 0:35:41# Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know
0:35:43 > 0:35:47# Until the spirit new sensation takes hold, then you know
0:35:51 > 0:35:52# I've got the spirit
0:35:54 > 0:35:55# But lose the feeling
0:35:57 > 0:35:58# I've got the spirit
0:35:59 > 0:36:01# But lose the feeling
0:36:03 > 0:36:06# Feeling, feeling, feeling, feeling
0:36:06 > 0:36:09# Feeling, feeling, feeling. #
0:36:19 > 0:36:23When Unknown Pleasures came out, it got universal, critical acclaim.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26It must be only me and Bernard in the whole bleeding world
0:36:26 > 0:36:29that don't like Unknown Pleasures,
0:36:29 > 0:36:31which is quite ironic.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33- The only thing we agree on. - HE LAUGHS
0:36:36 > 0:36:40I mean, Unknown Pleasures, I admit, even after we recorded it,
0:36:40 > 0:36:43I found it quite difficult to listen to it myself cos it was so dark.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47I don't think the production helped, cos that made it darker.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49Even darker still.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52But I felt, "Well, no-one is going to listen to this.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54"It's too bloody heavy!
0:36:54 > 0:36:56"It's too impenetrable."
0:36:56 > 0:36:57SONG: I Remember Nothing
0:37:00 > 0:37:08# We were strangers
0:37:11 > 0:37:15# We... #
0:37:15 > 0:37:20I think, also, in our lives, we'd all had very dark experiences.
0:37:20 > 0:37:24You know, we were only, like, 21, but I would say, for me,
0:37:24 > 0:37:26I'd had a lot of death and illness in the family.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28To experience such things at a young age
0:37:28 > 0:37:31makes you quite a serious person.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34Ian, I guess, in his line of work, what he did was quite serious.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50She's Lost Control was about a girl
0:37:50 > 0:37:57that he worked with at a disability centre that came in to see him.
0:37:57 > 0:38:01I think he really liked her, thought she was a nice girl.
0:38:01 > 0:38:03He was trying to get her work at different places.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06One day, she didn't come in. She'd died from a fit.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11He was quite shocked by that.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14This was before he had epilepsy himself.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17So he wrote She's Lost Control about her.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19You can see them now
0:38:19 > 0:38:21as Ian Curtis sings the brilliant She's Lost Control.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43# Confusion in her eyes that says it all
0:38:43 > 0:38:44# She's lost control
0:38:46 > 0:38:49# And she's clinging to the nearest passerby
0:38:49 > 0:38:51# She's lost control
0:38:52 > 0:38:55# And she gave away the secrets of her past
0:38:55 > 0:38:59# And said she's lost control again
0:38:59 > 0:39:01# And of a voice that told her when and where to act
0:39:01 > 0:39:04# She said, I've lost control again... #
0:40:01 > 0:40:05In September '79, we turned over to BBC Two
0:40:05 > 0:40:08and I'd never seen a TV performance like it.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12Ian Curtis's performance and the band's performance
0:40:12 > 0:40:15just totally broke through the plastic of the medium -
0:40:15 > 0:40:18going from musicians who couldn't even play their instruments,
0:40:18 > 0:40:21suddenly they were a super group.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23I was just astonished to see this.
0:40:23 > 0:40:27# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:40:29 > 0:40:33# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:40:35 > 0:40:39# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:40:41 > 0:40:45# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:40:47 > 0:40:50# Well, I would call out when the going gets tough
0:40:50 > 0:40:53# The things you've learnt are no longer enough
0:40:53 > 0:40:55# No language, just sound
0:40:55 > 0:40:56# That's all we need know
0:40:56 > 0:41:00# To synchronise love to the beat of the show
0:41:01 > 0:41:05# And we could dance
0:41:05 > 0:41:09# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:41:10 > 0:41:14# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:41:16 > 0:41:20# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio
0:41:22 > 0:41:26# Dance, dance, dance, dance, dance to the radio... #
0:41:32 > 0:41:34They must have had a sense within the unit
0:41:34 > 0:41:36that they'd done something special.
0:41:36 > 0:41:40Ian's ambition, obviously, was the one, ultimately,
0:41:40 > 0:41:42that created the great catastrophe.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45But I think the others had their own ambition within that,
0:41:45 > 0:41:48even if it was just to be the greatest bass player on the planet.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50I just wanted us to be how we sounded live.
0:41:50 > 0:41:51It was purely that.
0:41:51 > 0:41:53I didn't want it to sound melancholy,
0:41:53 > 0:41:54I didn't want it to last,
0:41:54 > 0:41:59I wanted it just to lop people's heads off like Iggy Pop live.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01I wasn't interested in depth or anything,
0:42:01 > 0:42:04I just wanted to, you know, kick 'em in the teeth.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28DISTORTED / MUFFLED MUSIC
0:42:50 > 0:42:52Joy Division sounded like no-one else.
0:42:54 > 0:43:00Very, very powerful onstage. Ian onstage was something fascinating.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03He sang and he danced in a unique way.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08Plan K, that was... That was kind of like...
0:43:10 > 0:43:11Ian had met Annik.
0:43:11 > 0:43:15They never travelled much, I think, as teenagers.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17When they first went to Europe, yeah, I think,
0:43:17 > 0:43:19something really happened for them.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21It's a major milestone.
0:43:21 > 0:43:24You're leaving home turf for the first time.
0:43:24 > 0:43:26We were playing a gig at Plan K.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28Cabaret Voltaire was on the bill.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31It was a converted sugar refinery.
0:43:31 > 0:43:33It was pretty arty.
0:43:33 > 0:43:35We went over there and we thought,
0:43:35 > 0:43:38"Right, you know, we're big-time Charlies."
0:43:38 > 0:43:42The big attraction was that they actually had William Burroughs.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45"Pay it all, pay it all, pay it all back!
0:43:45 > 0:43:48"Play all your reports back."
0:43:48 > 0:43:50The bands would play the concert space.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53The other floors, there was performance art.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56Then one room where they just showed movies.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58"School, showers and swimming pools."
0:43:58 > 0:44:02It was such an arty do. Everyone was so arty, wandering around.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06"Oh, God. Joy Division. They're so wonderfully sublime, darling."
0:44:06 > 0:44:07In French.
0:44:07 > 0:44:08The hilarious one there was
0:44:08 > 0:44:11when Ian decided he was going to get a free book off William Burroughs
0:44:11 > 0:44:14because he felt that he'd read all William Burroughs' books
0:44:14 > 0:44:16and bought them, so for some strange reason,
0:44:16 > 0:44:17he thought that this time
0:44:17 > 0:44:21William Burroughs would give him a free book.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23Bernard and I was most amused.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25We went with Ian to William Burroughs,
0:44:25 > 0:44:29where William Burroughs was reading first, then he was doing a signing.
0:44:29 > 0:44:34He went over. We were pissing ourselves behind the pillar.
0:44:34 > 0:44:36I can't remember what he said.
0:44:36 > 0:44:38Then all I heard was William Burroughs,
0:44:38 > 0:44:39"Ah, fuck off, kid."
0:44:40 > 0:44:44"We have had enough of your con and bullshit."
0:44:44 > 0:44:46Oh, we didn't stop laughing for hours.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48Ian was so embarrassed.
0:44:48 > 0:44:49Ian was a big Burroughs fan,
0:44:49 > 0:44:52because his writing
0:44:52 > 0:44:53was very much
0:44:53 > 0:44:58a post-Industrial nightmare.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02It was about the bigotry
0:45:02 > 0:45:06and lack of ethics.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10Cynical, hate-filled, totalitarian
0:45:10 > 0:45:14greed of Western society gone mad.
0:45:14 > 0:45:20The secret nature of perception... The cut-up. It all seemed to fit...
0:45:20 > 0:45:24and suggest that there was a way to integrate that more artistic
0:45:24 > 0:45:28and literary idea into what was otherwise
0:45:28 > 0:45:31a rather paltry glam rock,
0:45:31 > 0:45:34prog rock wilderness.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37As we became more popular and started doing more and more gigs,
0:45:37 > 0:45:41we just went, "Right... We'll have to give our jobs up now.
0:45:41 > 0:45:45"Stop being semi pro. Fully professional." The Buzzcocks tour
0:45:45 > 0:45:47was our first real sort of experience
0:45:47 > 0:45:49of proper rock and roll, you know,
0:45:49 > 0:45:52and...roadies and all that.
0:45:52 > 0:45:57And of course, their crew and the Buzzcocks crew got up to all
0:45:57 > 0:46:01kind of stupid roadie mischief, as did members of both groups.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04He was pissing in the ashtray, the dirty bastard!
0:46:04 > 0:46:07- A big lump of draw, like that.- The caretaker came in...
0:46:07 > 0:46:09- There you are, eat that. - ..and he grabbed hold of him,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12while he was pissing in the ashtray!
0:46:12 > 0:46:14- Felt like my head had fallen off. - And he went, "Oh, oh, oh!
0:46:14 > 0:46:17"You tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it!"
0:46:17 > 0:46:19- He would show you his tattoo. - Bucket of maggots.
0:46:19 > 0:46:23And coming out of his backside were two hands...
0:46:23 > 0:46:26- Live mice and put them in... - Yeah, keys in the van.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28So I opened the thing up and it was just full of beer.
0:46:28 > 0:46:32- You must have these...- He's robbed the bar...- And these two red stars.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35- I'll have them.- And the barman came out with about five bouncers.
0:46:35 > 0:46:39- I was like, "You fucking twat!" - Off his fucking nut,
0:46:39 > 0:46:41hallucinating - inane, laughing grin on his face,
0:46:41 > 0:46:43like a lunatic. He couldn't speak.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46He's French, right? He doesn't understand "fuck off".
0:46:46 > 0:46:49He went, "All right, then. Fuckee offee!"
0:47:20 > 0:47:24Once Joy Division really found their seam,
0:47:24 > 0:47:27they'd almost always start with Dead Souls.
0:47:27 > 0:47:32Now, that track has a very, very progressive, intense build-up.
0:47:32 > 0:47:36It's nearly three minutes before the vocal comes in.
0:47:36 > 0:47:40Now, this gives Ian a chance both to calibrate...
0:47:40 > 0:47:45Position himself to start to read what the atmosphere is,
0:47:45 > 0:47:47coming off the audience,
0:47:47 > 0:47:53to feel how the band behind him are locking in with each other
0:47:53 > 0:47:58on that particular evening and to decide how far he wants to travel.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08A lot of people thought he was off his head on drugs. He wasn't.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11Never ever, ever.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14And... Cos he looked like he was on drugs.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19But he was just... Music seemed to just put him in, like, a trance.
0:48:19 > 0:48:23He'd just start dancing away and he'd go to, like, another world.
0:48:51 > 0:48:53# They keep on calling me
0:48:55 > 0:48:58# They keep calling me... #
0:48:58 > 0:49:00That's Joy Division and it's called Dead Souls.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03Always choose cheery subjects, don't they, these boys?
0:49:03 > 0:49:06Tens of thousands of you are going to sit down and write letters to me
0:49:06 > 0:49:07here at the BBC asking about that.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10I can't really give you a great deal of information,
0:49:10 > 0:49:12except that it's on the Sordide Sentimental label.
0:49:12 > 0:49:15That's sordid with an E added to the end of it to make it look French,
0:49:15 > 0:49:17because indeed, it is French.
0:49:17 > 0:49:18It is available in one or two shops
0:49:18 > 0:49:21and it comes in a sort of folder, which makes it obviously
0:49:21 > 0:49:25larger than a record, and more book-like, in a sense.
0:49:25 > 0:49:30He loved that record. He was so proud, so proud...
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Of the sleeve, of such a beautiful object.
0:49:34 > 0:49:40It was quite funny, because when it did come out in an edition of 1,578,
0:49:40 > 0:49:44Rob was down in London and he was handing them out.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47You know, like, "Have one of these.
0:49:47 > 0:49:49"Just got this over from France. Have one of these."
0:49:49 > 0:49:51And then, you know...
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Two days later they were gone. Disappeared forever.
0:49:55 > 0:49:58And it had been widely distributed on cassette,
0:49:58 > 0:50:00because Peel played it all the time.
0:50:00 > 0:50:03Because he was, you know, feeling sorry for all of those
0:50:03 > 0:50:04who couldn't get a hold of a copy.
0:50:04 > 0:50:07And I promised to play the other side of it tonight. And indeed I shall.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09In fact, I shall do one now.
0:50:09 > 0:50:14FAST: # Walk in silence
0:50:14 > 0:50:16# Don't walk away... #
0:50:16 > 0:50:20Oh, curses, I've forgotten... Sorry, just... Oh, how irritating.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22I'd forgotten that it was a 33 1/3.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26I've remembered about half the times I've played it.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29'French, you say? They flood the country with millions of apples
0:50:29 > 0:50:31'that taste like cardboard and then send us records
0:50:31 > 0:50:32'that play at the wrong speed.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35'Anyway, I was talking about...'
0:50:35 > 0:50:39It's these four young guys, who are standing there smoking, shaking...
0:50:39 > 0:50:44Like this. Yeah, OK. You know, underdressed, malnourished.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46You know, that's what...what I always thought of
0:50:46 > 0:50:48the north of the England.
0:50:48 > 0:50:50It was quite a shock if you came from Holland, where,
0:50:50 > 0:50:54socially, you know, everybody was...taken care of.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57You come to England and it was incredible - extreme poverty.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00And, you know, people drinking and smoking.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03And having just a little shirt on and a thin coat.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06And they stand outside in the winter.
0:51:06 > 0:51:11It was hard to believe these four guys... They are making jokes.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14They were really lads, very young.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17That they could have such a deep, heavy sound...
0:51:19 > 0:51:22And, certainly for Ian, when he was on stage,
0:51:22 > 0:51:24he was coming out of himself.
0:51:24 > 0:51:29He was a different person, possessed by some very strong power.
0:51:29 > 0:51:33He looked like he was coming from another world
0:51:33 > 0:51:36and himself in another world.
0:51:36 > 0:51:38And very, very emotional.
0:51:38 > 0:51:42He looked at the same time very strong and very fragile.
0:51:42 > 0:51:45Very vulnerable, you know?
0:51:45 > 0:51:49I think he was very brave to sing and dance like he was doing.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53We all live very boring, ordinary lives,
0:51:53 > 0:51:57and with our great lead singers, we look at them
0:51:57 > 0:52:01and for that one hour, we live life through their eyes.
0:52:01 > 0:52:05He walks on and he seems a little shy and quiet.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07And he just takes command of the stage.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10The light comes on to him and he goes inside.
0:52:10 > 0:52:13# So take a chance and step outside
0:52:18 > 0:52:21# Take a chance and say you tried... #
0:52:21 > 0:52:26'It was very much as if he was plugged into some kind of huge,
0:52:26 > 0:52:28'electrical voltage
0:52:28 > 0:52:32'that was creating this twitching,
0:52:32 > 0:52:33'jerking...
0:52:35 > 0:52:37'..tranced-out
0:52:37 > 0:52:39'symbol for a human being.'
0:52:39 > 0:52:40# Say you tried
0:52:41 > 0:52:43# Say you tried
0:52:44 > 0:52:45# Say you tried
0:52:47 > 0:52:48# Say you tried
0:52:49 > 0:52:51# Say you tried
0:52:52 > 0:52:53# Say you tried
0:52:55 > 0:52:56# Say you tried
0:52:57 > 0:52:59# Say you tried
0:53:00 > 0:53:01# Say you tried... #
0:53:11 > 0:53:16Once he'd done that thing where he shook himself into a frenzy,
0:53:16 > 0:53:18you just didn't know where it was going to take you.
0:53:18 > 0:53:19He was like a kind of puppet
0:53:19 > 0:53:25and you felt his vulnerability in that puppet-like movement.
0:53:25 > 0:53:27It was a bit like watching performance artists
0:53:27 > 0:53:30who deliberately lacerate themselves, cut themselves.
0:53:30 > 0:53:32Except, with Ian, he didn't bleed,
0:53:32 > 0:53:36but he sacrificed something of himself for you.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53# Say you tried
0:53:54 > 0:53:56# Say you tried... #
0:53:57 > 0:54:00We've played in Europe already, in Holland and Germany.
0:54:00 > 0:54:02And we are going to America.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05We're only going for about two weeks, three weeks.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09But I'd hate to be on the, you know, usual record company,
0:54:09 > 0:54:11where it's sort of... You do all the Odeons.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13I just couldn't do that at all.
0:54:13 > 0:54:18That experience of our supporting the Buzzcocks, it was really...
0:54:18 > 0:54:20Yeah, soul destroying.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26We played a concept at the Hope And Anchor in London.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31I remember Ian being in a weird...
0:54:31 > 0:54:34kind of a little bit childish mood.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37Not quite himself, you know? This was in the morning.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39We drove down, we did the concert
0:54:39 > 0:54:42and only about three people turned up.
0:54:42 > 0:54:46It was about two in the morning, we were driving back up the M1,
0:54:46 > 0:54:48you know, and I had the sleeping bag over me.
0:54:48 > 0:54:52Ian just was moaning about the gig, moaning about the sound
0:54:52 > 0:54:53and moaning about this.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57He said, "Give me that sleeping bag."
0:54:57 > 0:55:00It was just not like him, because he weren't a selfish person at all.
0:55:00 > 0:55:02He turned around, grabbed the sleeping bag off me.
0:55:02 > 0:55:04I said, "Stop pissing around, give it me back."
0:55:04 > 0:55:08And I pulled it, so he pulled it back. I pulled it back
0:55:08 > 0:55:12and then held on to it, so he just wrenched it out of my hands.
0:55:12 > 0:55:17But put it over his head this time and wrapped himself in a ball,
0:55:17 > 0:55:21and then just started making this weird growling sound,
0:55:21 > 0:55:23just growling, you know...
0:55:23 > 0:55:25Growling like a dog.
0:55:25 > 0:55:29The next thing, a hand comes out the sleeping bag,
0:55:29 > 0:55:31bashes out at Steve,
0:55:31 > 0:55:34the other one comes out and punches the windscreen,
0:55:34 > 0:55:36and then he just starts punching,
0:55:36 > 0:55:40and that punching turned into a fully fledged grand mal fit...
0:55:41 > 0:55:43..in the car,
0:55:43 > 0:55:45while Steve was driving.
0:55:45 > 0:55:47So, it was like, "Pull over, pull over, pull over!"
0:55:48 > 0:55:51Dragged him, for his own protection, out of the car
0:55:51 > 0:55:53and held him down flat on the hard shoulder,
0:55:53 > 0:55:55and, you know, dark, middle of the night,
0:55:55 > 0:55:56and just pinned his limbs down
0:55:56 > 0:55:59while he basically had a fit.
0:55:59 > 0:56:00After that, really,
0:56:00 > 0:56:03he just got diagnosed with epilepsy
0:56:03 > 0:56:05and they just started getting more and more frequent.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09Those with epilepsy are going to have a much more difficult life,
0:56:09 > 0:56:13because of the age-old stigma attached to the word epilepsy,
0:56:13 > 0:56:16and the real fear which people have of it.
0:56:18 > 0:56:19We didn't know what to do.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25You know, it's not one of those things that you're used to.
0:56:25 > 0:56:29I mean, we'd certainly never come across people
0:56:29 > 0:56:31who'd had fits before.
0:56:31 > 0:56:35You know, we were there and...
0:56:36 > 0:56:38You know, we didn't know what to say to him.
0:56:38 > 0:56:40Plus, we're men - men don't talk,
0:56:40 > 0:56:43and we certainly didn't talk to each other.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45So we just kind of carried on the way with we were carrying on,
0:56:45 > 0:56:46which was working a lot.
0:56:48 > 0:56:51And didn't give him much quarter, really,
0:56:51 > 0:56:53in which to recover,
0:56:53 > 0:56:56because basically his doctor's advice was...
0:56:57 > 0:56:59..don't drink,
0:56:59 > 0:57:01go to bed early,
0:57:01 > 0:57:03you know, avoid flashing lights.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07Well, he was 22 or something.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10Everything that boys join a band to do...
0:57:12 > 0:57:14..you know, the drink, the drugs,
0:57:14 > 0:57:16the women...
0:57:16 > 0:57:18All of that is sort of
0:57:18 > 0:57:21written out of Ian's script.
0:57:21 > 0:57:23You know, he did have epilepsy, very suddenly it occurred,
0:57:23 > 0:57:26but he also had a very, very, VERY strong...
0:57:27 > 0:57:30Big, you know, grand mal fits.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32It wasn't... No messing about.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35It was very strong.
0:57:35 > 0:57:37Very strong, you know.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39He couldn't pick his daughter up,
0:57:39 > 0:57:42he couldn't drive a car.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44He had to be careful at railway stations
0:57:44 > 0:57:46that he didn't stand too near the edge.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49As I witnessed a few of his fits, you know,
0:57:49 > 0:57:52I can tell you it was really, really frightening.
0:57:52 > 0:57:55It was like he was being possessed by the devil,
0:57:55 > 0:57:56I know it sounds silly to say,
0:57:56 > 0:58:00but he was literally raising from the ground.
0:58:00 > 0:58:01That's how I remember it.
0:58:01 > 0:58:05Nowadays, in the mentally normal patient,
0:58:05 > 0:58:09it should be possible to control fits in at least 85%...
0:58:09 > 0:58:12You've got to take lots of drugs and the drugs that he had to take,
0:58:12 > 0:58:14they were really, really heavy.
0:58:14 > 0:58:15One day he'd come in
0:58:15 > 0:58:17and he'd be laughing his head off and totally happy.
0:58:17 > 0:58:18The next day he'd come in
0:58:18 > 0:58:23and he would be depressed and in tears.
0:58:23 > 0:58:25And he wasn't like that before,
0:58:25 > 0:58:27before the drugs that he was on.
0:58:27 > 0:58:31He wasn't like that, he was much more, didn't have the mood swings.
0:58:31 > 0:58:33The other thing is,
0:58:33 > 0:58:35he obviously had problems with his relationship
0:58:35 > 0:58:40with his girlfriend Annik and his wife,
0:58:40 > 0:58:42that he had to make a life decision there,
0:58:42 > 0:58:45that was very, very, very difficult for him.
0:58:45 > 0:58:46He had a child.
0:58:48 > 0:58:50I don't know what was going on in his mind,
0:58:50 > 0:58:52I really dread to think what was going on in his mind.
0:58:55 > 0:58:59I think he could see limits to the way...
0:59:01 > 0:59:03..he was possibly going with the band,
0:59:03 > 0:59:06and I think the band were about to change,
0:59:06 > 0:59:08because they were becoming much bigger
0:59:08 > 0:59:10and they were on the verge of becoming absolutely huge.
0:59:10 > 0:59:12And creatively and psychologically,
0:59:12 > 0:59:15that must have been a real challenge for him.
0:59:15 > 0:59:17He felt that he was holding us back.
0:59:17 > 0:59:20And he... Which is probably one of the reasons
0:59:20 > 0:59:22why he drove himself so hard...
0:59:24 > 0:59:26..was because he didn't want...
0:59:26 > 0:59:28Because he knew we all wanted it so badly
0:59:28 > 0:59:29and we were all enjoying it so much.
0:59:29 > 0:59:33I think that his problem was that he didn't want to let anybody down.
0:59:33 > 0:59:37People started writing about them in...
0:59:39 > 0:59:42..February 1980 as if they were the Second Coming.
0:59:42 > 0:59:45The weight of expectation upon them
0:59:45 > 0:59:46to come out with, you know,
0:59:46 > 0:59:48the most amazing gig ever,
0:59:48 > 0:59:51every time they played, was enormous.
0:59:53 > 0:59:56I remember standing in the audience at the London University
0:59:56 > 0:59:58and thinking, "Oh, fuck, now they've got us...
1:00:00 > 1:00:01"Now they've got a single."
1:00:01 > 1:00:05MUSIC: Love Will Tear Us Apart by Joy Division
1:00:26 > 1:00:29You would first hear Love Will Tear Us Apart live,
1:00:29 > 1:00:31and you would go,
1:00:31 > 1:00:32"Oh, my God", you know,
1:00:32 > 1:00:35because you did have enough about you to think,
1:00:35 > 1:00:38"That is a fucking great pop song."
1:00:38 > 1:00:39"That could be number one."
1:00:39 > 1:00:42You know, that kind of moment, because it was catchy.
1:00:42 > 1:00:44# Love
1:00:44 > 1:00:49# Love will tear us apart again
1:00:49 > 1:00:50# Love
1:00:50 > 1:00:55# Love will tear us apart again
1:01:01 > 1:01:04# Why is the bedroom so cold?
1:01:04 > 1:01:08# You've turned away on your side
1:01:08 > 1:01:11# Is my timing that flawed?
1:01:11 > 1:01:15# Our respect runs so dry. #
1:01:15 > 1:01:18Possibly one of the greatest songs written in the 20th century
1:01:18 > 1:01:20by anybody,
1:01:20 > 1:01:22because the way it can, in a Shakespearean sense,
1:01:22 > 1:01:24take a Calexico
1:01:24 > 1:01:26or, you know, a Susanna,
1:01:26 > 1:01:29or a fucking Paul Young, or...
1:01:29 > 1:01:32You know, it can take into multiple interpretations
1:01:32 > 1:01:37and constantly releases meaning.
1:01:37 > 1:01:39It was an extraordinary piece of writing,
1:01:39 > 1:01:40just the words,
1:01:40 > 1:01:42let alone that somehow
1:01:42 > 1:01:44these young Northerners managed to find a way
1:01:44 > 1:01:46to sonically piece together music
1:01:46 > 1:01:50that matched the quality of the words.
1:01:50 > 1:01:52None of them realised
1:01:52 > 1:01:54how strong and powerful the music was.
1:01:54 > 1:01:57You know, it's just like a love story.
1:01:57 > 1:02:01Each individual is nothing on their own,
1:02:01 > 1:02:02and when they click together,
1:02:02 > 1:02:04when they are together,
1:02:04 > 1:02:05it's enormous
1:02:05 > 1:02:07and that was Joy Division.
1:02:07 > 1:02:11They just had the light, the spirit.
1:02:11 > 1:02:14When Ian said that he had "the spirit", that was exactly it,
1:02:14 > 1:02:17you know, he was something...
1:02:18 > 1:02:20Some light
1:02:20 > 1:02:22burning inside him.
1:02:22 > 1:02:27He was gifted in a way that he would know
1:02:27 > 1:02:29that this wasn't going to last forever.
1:02:29 > 1:02:31He rang up once and said,
1:02:31 > 1:02:34"Oh, you know, I want to leave the band.
1:02:34 > 1:02:36"I'm going to move to Holland
1:02:36 > 1:02:37"and open a bookshop."
1:02:39 > 1:02:41"Great, that's..."
1:02:41 > 1:02:44Then the next minute, he's like,
1:02:44 > 1:02:47"Oh, we're playing in Bradford on Saturday."
1:02:47 > 1:02:48"I thought Ian was...?"
1:02:48 > 1:02:50"No, no, no, he's changed his mind."
1:02:50 > 1:02:52"Oh, right. OK."
1:02:52 > 1:02:56We would talk about ideas and writers...
1:02:58 > 1:03:02But most of all, he talked about his emotions and about himself,
1:03:02 > 1:03:04and how he was feeling.
1:03:04 > 1:03:09How, every week, he was becoming more and more
1:03:09 > 1:03:13shut off from what people perceived him to be.
1:03:13 > 1:03:15That there were these two people that were Ian Curtis,
1:03:15 > 1:03:19the one that was the media figure and the singer in the band,
1:03:19 > 1:03:23and the actual Ian Curtis, who was hurt, angry, lost...
1:03:25 > 1:03:26..very lonely...
1:03:27 > 1:03:31..and didn't feel that people would treat him with respect
1:03:31 > 1:03:33if he explained who he really was.
1:03:35 > 1:03:37There's no doubt that there is
1:03:37 > 1:03:41something of the 'end point' in Closer.
1:03:54 > 1:03:56Unknown Pleasures is the...
1:03:56 > 1:03:59Is, "Wouldn't it be great to be an artist?
1:03:59 > 1:04:02"Wouldn't it be great to be like Burra and Bowie,
1:04:02 > 1:04:04"and Ballard and Iggy?
1:04:04 > 1:04:06"Wouldn't it be great to be like that?
1:04:06 > 1:04:09"I might have a chance to be like that. Oh, my God," you know?
1:04:09 > 1:04:11And then Closer was the artist.
1:04:11 > 1:04:14That was where he joined those ranks,
1:04:14 > 1:04:16and therefore pulled Unknown Pleasures with him,
1:04:16 > 1:04:21because that was the first step towards becoming that kind of artist.
1:04:42 > 1:04:44If you were,
1:04:44 > 1:04:48at this time, of an inquisitive nature,
1:04:48 > 1:04:50Joy Division was like an advent calendar.
1:04:50 > 1:04:52You'd open up a window and you'd see, you know,
1:04:52 > 1:04:55a gateway to another place.
1:04:55 > 1:05:00You know, there'd be all of these routes out of the world
1:05:00 > 1:05:02into other worlds, parallel worlds.
1:05:02 > 1:05:05The obvious example is Atrocity Exhibition.
1:05:05 > 1:05:08I mean, you want to know, what Atrocity Exhibition?
1:05:08 > 1:05:11And then you find out, "Oh, it's a book by JG Ballard."
1:05:11 > 1:05:16And, erm, it opens up a whole other universe.
1:05:16 > 1:05:19You take some of the references,
1:05:19 > 1:05:25for example, Colony, which is Franz Kafka.
1:05:25 > 1:05:29You take tracks like The Kill
1:05:29 > 1:05:33and see the references to Dostoyevsky or something.
1:05:33 > 1:05:36It's like an education in itself.
1:05:36 > 1:05:37SONG: Atrocity Exhibition
1:05:37 > 1:05:39# This is the way
1:05:39 > 1:05:41# Step inside
1:05:41 > 1:05:42# This is the way
1:05:42 > 1:05:45# Step inside
1:05:45 > 1:05:46# This is the way
1:05:46 > 1:05:49# Step inside
1:05:49 > 1:05:50# This is the way
1:05:50 > 1:05:54# Step inside... #
1:05:54 > 1:05:58I thought Closer got closer to the sound that I particularly wanted.
1:05:59 > 1:06:03Erm, I also enjoyed the experience because we were away in London.
1:06:03 > 1:06:06We were living in two flats.
1:06:06 > 1:06:09Again, there was this kind of hoi polloi...
1:06:09 > 1:06:11sort of party flats
1:06:11 > 1:06:15at one end, and intellectual flats at the other end.
1:06:15 > 1:06:18I was staying with them in that apartment, I remember.
1:06:18 > 1:06:22And I think I was the only girl around.
1:06:22 > 1:06:23She was just sort of...
1:06:24 > 1:06:26..sophistication...
1:06:27 > 1:06:31..to someone from Macclesfield, you know.
1:06:32 > 1:06:35Someone who used to ride pigs for entertainment,
1:06:35 > 1:06:39suddenly confronted with...someone who works in an embassy.
1:06:39 > 1:06:41We were just taking the piss out of them all the time.
1:06:41 > 1:06:44You know, putting cornflakes in their bed, and....
1:06:44 > 1:06:47Just japes. Daft, stupid things.
1:06:47 > 1:06:49But she used to get so wound up, you know.
1:06:49 > 1:06:53There was one night, I remember they had a glass pane in the door.
1:06:53 > 1:06:55And we'd been taking the piss out of them, throwing beer at them
1:06:55 > 1:06:58while they were in bed or something. Something daft.
1:06:58 > 1:07:02And he come, fucking chased us out and we ran in our flat,
1:07:02 > 1:07:06hold the door shut, and she was fucking kicking the door with her...
1:07:06 > 1:07:10With her dressing gown on. Like a fucking bloke would do, you know.
1:07:10 > 1:07:13It was horrible. I thought that was a horrible time.
1:07:13 > 1:07:16Ian had Debbie on his case cos...
1:07:16 > 1:07:20And Hooky had Iris on his case because Ian had Annik there
1:07:20 > 1:07:23and Iris thought that was all wrong.
1:07:29 > 1:07:32We got treated well at the studio at Britannia Row.
1:07:32 > 1:07:34I remember them bringing sandwiches in.
1:07:34 > 1:07:37And tea and stuff. We were like, "Wahey!"
1:07:37 > 1:07:39Posh, you know.
1:07:42 > 1:07:45We used to drive Martin mad, Bernard and I.
1:07:45 > 1:07:47Bernard in one corner, me on the other.
1:07:47 > 1:07:50"Oh, Martin?" And he'd go, "It's your go."
1:07:50 > 1:07:52I'd go, "It's your go. I asked him about the..."
1:07:52 > 1:07:54He'd go, "What are you fucking whispering about?"
1:07:54 > 1:07:55"Nothing, Martin. Nothing."
1:07:58 > 1:08:02Whilst they were there at Britannia Row, Rob had the foresight
1:08:02 > 1:08:05to think, well, we better go and see Peter about a cover.
1:08:05 > 1:08:07Who knows? It could take him weeks.
1:08:07 > 1:08:11It could take him months, so let's go and get him on that now.
1:08:11 > 1:08:13I was very nervous.
1:08:13 > 1:08:16I didn't want to take something from a book or the shelf and say,
1:08:16 > 1:08:19"I like this." And them kind of look at me and think,
1:08:19 > 1:08:21"Well, you're just... You're just hopeless."
1:08:21 > 1:08:25And there was something. There was something I was very excited about.
1:08:25 > 1:08:28It was a body of photographs by a man called Bernard Pierre Wolff.
1:08:28 > 1:08:30And I opened the magazine and put it on the drawing board
1:08:30 > 1:08:32and stepped away.
1:08:32 > 1:08:34And I think they just pointed at one and said, "We want this.
1:08:35 > 1:08:37"We want this for the cover."
1:08:40 > 1:08:42I came to pass that it was going to be called Closer.
1:08:46 > 1:08:49And it was interesting. Closer. Close-er.
1:08:56 > 1:09:01I'd no idea that it was going to be the last thing
1:09:01 > 1:09:05that he did. It's better than Unknown Pleasures.
1:09:05 > 1:09:07The songs are better, everything.
1:09:07 > 1:09:09You know.
1:09:11 > 1:09:12It was a good laugh most of the time.
1:09:12 > 1:09:16The only thing that sort of was sad about it was Ian's illness,
1:09:16 > 1:09:18but he hid that so well most of the time.
1:09:18 > 1:09:22I remember talking to him one night.
1:09:22 > 1:09:24Ian was saying to me that, erm...
1:09:26 > 1:09:28..doing this album felt very strange
1:09:28 > 1:09:33because he felt that all these words were writing themselves.
1:09:33 > 1:09:37And that he'd always, in the past, struggled to complete a song.
1:09:37 > 1:09:40Like, he'd have the start, but he'd always struggle to complete it.
1:09:40 > 1:09:43But he just had the whole song straight off.
1:09:43 > 1:09:45Erm, but he said that, at the same time,
1:09:45 > 1:09:51he had this terrible claustrophobic feeling that he was in a whirlpool.
1:09:51 > 1:09:54And drowning, and he was being pulled down in this whirlpool.
1:09:54 > 1:09:57He was always recording on his own.
1:09:57 > 1:10:01You know, the group would be recording the music
1:10:01 > 1:10:03at a different time.
1:10:03 > 1:10:10The image I would have in mind was Ian was very tired...
1:10:10 > 1:10:12and very, very quiet.
1:10:12 > 1:10:14And every time he would sing,
1:10:14 > 1:10:21he would turn his back and put his hand...
1:10:21 > 1:10:24on his head or on his eyes...
1:10:24 > 1:10:31and he would turn around from the others, just to be in himself.
1:10:31 > 1:10:34SONG: The Eternal
1:10:49 > 1:10:55All the lyrics on the CD are really depressing and sad. Mmm.
1:10:55 > 1:10:59And it's surprising nobody would pay attention.
1:10:59 > 1:11:01We never really talked about his lyrics.
1:11:01 > 1:11:04In fact, we never really listened to his lyrics that much.
1:11:04 > 1:11:07It's only years on, when you see them wrote down,
1:11:07 > 1:11:10when Debbie published them...
1:11:10 > 1:11:14you know, "Oh, my God, is that what he was singing?!"
1:11:14 > 1:11:19Maybe for the others it was more like literature.
1:11:19 > 1:11:22You know, Annik expressed how worried she was,
1:11:22 > 1:11:23how fearful she was.
1:11:23 > 1:11:26And I'm all kind of, "No, no, no, it's just art, it's just an album,
1:11:26 > 1:11:28"for God's sake.
1:11:28 > 1:11:31"It's wonderful, I know, but it's nothing to be frightened of."
1:11:31 > 1:11:33But she said, "Don't you understand, Tony?
1:11:33 > 1:11:37"When he says, 'I take the blame,' he means it."
1:11:37 > 1:11:40And I went, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just art."
1:11:42 > 1:11:45How fucking stupid can you get?
1:11:45 > 1:11:47When he cut himself up with a kitchen knife,
1:11:47 > 1:11:50and, you know, he said he was pissed.
1:11:50 > 1:11:54And when he took his first overdose, you think he'd have stopped
1:11:54 > 1:11:58and sorted it out, and it seems, you know, a complete...
1:12:00 > 1:12:03..unbelievable to me that we didn't stop and sort him out.
1:12:03 > 1:12:05I think he was actually in a hospital.
1:12:07 > 1:12:11But we'd already had a gig booked, right?
1:12:11 > 1:12:13And if we'd booked a gig, it never got cancelled.
1:12:16 > 1:12:20So Tony actually brought Ian down to the gig,
1:12:20 > 1:12:22and he was in no fit state to play.
1:12:22 > 1:12:25I got a phone call, and it was Bernard, and he just said,
1:12:25 > 1:12:28"Oh, Ian's ill, and we've got a gig tonight.
1:12:28 > 1:12:30"We were wondering if you'd like to stand in for him."
1:12:30 > 1:12:34"Alan can go on, sing a couple, and Ian can come and sing a couple."
1:12:34 > 1:12:37But it didn't go down too well with the audience.
1:12:37 > 1:12:40There was a big Victorian glass chandelier suspended above
1:12:40 > 1:12:43the stage, and somebody threw a bottle or a glass,
1:12:43 > 1:12:45and it hit the chandelier square on.
1:12:45 > 1:12:49Bottles started flying, and equipment got trashed.
1:12:49 > 1:12:52Hooky fancied a bit of a fight, I think, at that point.
1:12:52 > 1:12:55So we just kept going, "Right, come on, second assault,"
1:12:55 > 1:12:58and they'd all go out and try and fight the audience.
1:12:58 > 1:13:02But it turned into, you know, a complete fiasco.
1:13:02 > 1:13:05It was horrible and of course not great for Ian,
1:13:05 > 1:13:09cos he immediately thought, "Oh, right, all this is my fault,"
1:13:09 > 1:13:11and he just burst out in tears.
1:13:11 > 1:13:14He just took the blame himself, you know.
1:13:14 > 1:13:16SONG: Isolation
1:13:27 > 1:13:32He said that he was standing in the wings of the stage watching
1:13:32 > 1:13:37the band play without him and he just had this feeling that he was
1:13:37 > 1:13:41looking down and they were carrying on without him...
1:13:41 > 1:13:45and that they were going to carry on without him, which is kind of eerie.
1:13:45 > 1:13:46The Bury gig was on a Tuesday,
1:13:46 > 1:13:51and I said to Tony, "Maybe you should suggest that he come and stay
1:13:51 > 1:13:53"at our house in the country," cos we lived in the country.
1:13:53 > 1:13:56And Ian drove back with us that night after the gig.
1:13:57 > 1:14:01We just sat in the lounge smoking and listening to music.
1:14:01 > 1:14:04That was all we did.
1:14:04 > 1:14:08He stayed at my house for a week. I think he fell out with Debbie and...
1:14:08 > 1:14:10Well, he had fallen out with Debbie.
1:14:10 > 1:14:12He needed somewhere to stay, so he stayed with me for a week,
1:14:12 > 1:14:15which wasn't great for him, cos I was still an insomniac,
1:14:15 > 1:14:17I was staying up till five in the morning.
1:14:17 > 1:14:19I remember coming back from rehearsals one day,
1:14:19 > 1:14:23and we took a short cut through the graveyard, and I said to him,
1:14:23 > 1:14:27"You're lucky, your name could be on one of those stones if you'd have
1:14:27 > 1:14:31"succeeded the other week." And he was like, "Yeah, right. Yeah.
1:14:32 > 1:14:34You know?
1:14:35 > 1:14:37No sort of connection in the response.
1:14:40 > 1:14:42He'd made his mind up...
1:14:42 > 1:14:44I think.
1:14:44 > 1:14:46We read a book on hypnotic regression that...
1:14:48 > 1:14:52Sometimes if you've got problems in the present,
1:14:52 > 1:14:55the regression could unlock, erm...
1:14:56 > 1:14:59..problems that had occurred either in your childhood or,
1:14:59 > 1:15:02if you believed in it, in previous lives.
1:15:02 > 1:15:05And Ian was like, "Oh, that sounds interesting. I'd like to try that."
1:15:05 > 1:15:09So I said, "Why don't we try it now and record it on a cassette?"
1:15:09 > 1:15:11TAPE HISS
1:16:35 > 1:16:37SONG: Decades
1:17:22 > 1:17:30It's not difficult to realise that he was seriously destabilised
1:17:30 > 1:17:36by the whole matrix of things that was going on at that time.
1:17:36 > 1:17:41But he was also on the cusp of exactly what he wanted...
1:17:41 > 1:17:43which was to get out...
1:17:45 > 1:17:49..of Manchester, to travel and see the world, to go to America,
1:17:49 > 1:17:52the land of some of his heroes.
1:17:52 > 1:17:55Why would he want to do himself in the night before that?
1:17:55 > 1:17:57You know, it's 24 hours from Tulsa, isn't it?
1:17:57 > 1:18:0024 hours from the plane to America.
1:18:10 > 1:18:13Going to America on the Monday.
1:18:13 > 1:18:17Ian had gone back to live with his mum and dad by Thursday,
1:18:17 > 1:18:22or something, and he just phoned me on the Saturday or the Friday night
1:18:22 > 1:18:24and said, "I can't come out tomorrow.
1:18:24 > 1:18:27"I'm going to go and see Debbie before we go away."
1:18:27 > 1:18:31That kind of thing. "Uh-oh..." A little bit, you know?
1:18:31 > 1:18:32"It's going to end in tears, at least,
1:18:32 > 1:18:35"or they're going to have an argument."
1:18:40 > 1:18:42So I said, "Are you sure, like? Just come out and have a drink.
1:18:42 > 1:18:46"We'll have a laugh." He was like, "No, I've got to see her."
1:18:46 > 1:18:50I was probably in Belgium for about five days before I was due to
1:18:50 > 1:18:52return to go back to England.
1:18:52 > 1:18:55The last time we spoke together was on the Saturday night.
1:18:55 > 1:18:58It was very short, and I couldn't hear him very well.
1:18:58 > 1:19:02I was in the backstage with lots of people around.
1:19:02 > 1:19:04And he said that it's imperative
1:19:04 > 1:19:08that we have to meet before they go to America,
1:19:08 > 1:19:11otherwise it would be seven or eight weeks without seeing each other.
1:19:11 > 1:19:14And basically, we just agreed that he should call me
1:19:14 > 1:19:18at home the following day, and he told me he was listening to the
1:19:18 > 1:19:24record and was going to watch a film, and he was alone.
1:19:31 > 1:19:34I was the first one that they told.
1:19:34 > 1:19:38It was really weird, because I was sitting down, just about to have
1:19:38 > 1:19:44me Sunday lunch, me and Iris, and the phone rang, literally like that.
1:19:44 > 1:19:48And I went on the phone, and they said, "Oh, this is the police.
1:19:48 > 1:19:50"We're trying to get in touch with Rob Gretton."
1:19:50 > 1:19:53And I said, "He should be at home." They said, "We phoned him at home,
1:19:53 > 1:19:55"he's not there." I said, "What's the problem?"
1:19:55 > 1:19:58And he went, "Oh, well, I'm sorry to tell you this,
1:19:58 > 1:20:01"but Ian Curtis has committed suicide."
1:20:01 > 1:20:04And I went, "Oh, right, OK." And he went,
1:20:04 > 1:20:07"Right, well, OK, if you speak to Mr Gretton, could you get him
1:20:07 > 1:20:08"to call us?"
1:20:08 > 1:20:12And I went, "Yeah, right, OK," and put the phone down
1:20:12 > 1:20:15and went and sat back and had me dinner.
1:20:15 > 1:20:18And then Iris said to me, "Oh, who was on the phone, by the way?"
1:20:18 > 1:20:21I went, "Oh, it's just Ian. He's killed himself."
1:20:23 > 1:20:27And that was it, then. That was the shock of it.
1:20:27 > 1:20:30It was really weird. Horrible.
1:20:30 > 1:20:32When he first tried to commit suicide,
1:20:32 > 1:20:36when he took the overdose, it was a COMPLETE surprise.
1:20:36 > 1:20:41In fact, when he actually did commit suicide and Rob told me,
1:20:41 > 1:20:45I said, "What, he's tried again?" You know, I can't believe it.
1:20:45 > 1:20:48"He's tried again?" And he said, "No, he has. He's dead."
1:20:50 > 1:20:52I was like, "What, he's tried...?"
1:20:52 > 1:20:55He said, "No, he's dead. He's done it."
1:20:55 > 1:20:59Everything then seems a blur after that, really.
1:20:59 > 1:21:00Spent most of the time in the pub.
1:21:00 > 1:21:03Just spent most of the time together, all of us.
1:21:03 > 1:21:06Me, Tony, Terry, Barney, we'd all go and sit together,
1:21:06 > 1:21:10just sit in the pub together. Just couldn't take it in, really.
1:21:11 > 1:21:14It's hard to say, sort of...
1:21:14 > 1:21:1850% sad and 50% angry...
1:21:18 > 1:21:20really.
1:21:20 > 1:21:23Angry at HIM, really,
1:21:23 > 1:21:26a) for being stupid...
1:21:27 > 1:21:29..and doing that
1:21:29 > 1:21:35and angry at myself for not doing something.
1:21:41 > 1:21:42Yeah.
1:21:44 > 1:21:45- ANNIK:- I arrived in London.
1:21:45 > 1:21:48He never rang, so I thought, "Maybe there's a problem.
1:21:48 > 1:21:50"I should call his parents, at his parents',"
1:21:50 > 1:21:53because that's where he was staying...
1:21:53 > 1:21:56where he was supposed to stay, and when I called...
1:21:57 > 1:22:03..his father just said, "Ian is dead," and he put the phone down.
1:22:03 > 1:22:04And that was it.
1:22:08 > 1:22:10I came home from work and there's this piece of paper.
1:22:10 > 1:22:12I looked at it, and it says,
1:22:12 > 1:22:14"Singer kills himself on eve of tour".
1:22:14 > 1:22:18You think, "This isn't true"...
1:22:18 > 1:22:22and then you get a feeling of anger, where you say, "You twat.
1:22:22 > 1:22:23"Why have you done that?" You know?
1:22:25 > 1:22:28"You bastard. You should have stuck it out with the rest of us."
1:22:30 > 1:22:32We didn't go to the wake.
1:22:32 > 1:22:34I don't think we were welcome, really, somehow.
1:22:34 > 1:22:37I mean, one of my greatest regrets in life is that I didn't go
1:22:37 > 1:22:41and see him, you know, after he was dead.
1:22:41 > 1:22:43I really, really do regret that.
1:22:45 > 1:22:48But I think we was so young, we didn't know what the bloody hell...
1:22:48 > 1:22:49Nobody offered it, you know?
1:22:49 > 1:22:52I think somebody said, "Oh, do you want to go and see him?"
1:22:52 > 1:22:55"Fucking right(!) Do I want to go and see a dead body? Do I fuck!"
1:22:55 > 1:22:57You know, "I'm 22. I'm going to the pub. Fuck that."
1:22:58 > 1:23:02But, you know, I really do regret not seeing him and saying goodbye now.
1:23:02 > 1:23:04I really do.
1:23:04 > 1:23:06There's only Bernard and I that didn't go.
1:23:06 > 1:23:08Everybody else went, you know?
1:23:08 > 1:23:10Lindsay's and my job was to look after Annik.
1:23:10 > 1:23:12I didn't go to the funeral because it was my job to make sure
1:23:12 > 1:23:14Annik got on the plane back to Brussels
1:23:14 > 1:23:16and there was no scene at the funeral...
1:23:18 > 1:23:21..and sent me looking after Annik for five or six days.
1:23:21 > 1:23:25I'm sure Annik probably doesn't remember this much.
1:23:25 > 1:23:28She was playing both albums back-to-back, nonstop...
1:23:28 > 1:23:29HE LAUGHS
1:23:29 > 1:23:31..24 hours a day
1:23:31 > 1:23:34for about the entire time she stayed in the cottage.
1:23:34 > 1:23:36There you go.
1:23:36 > 1:23:38I didn't go to the funeral, but I went to Factory Records
1:23:38 > 1:23:41after the funeral, and they played The Great Rock 'n' Roll Swindle.
1:23:41 > 1:23:45I always remember that. And I just remember being frozen throughout it,
1:23:45 > 1:23:47and I think we all were, in the room,
1:23:47 > 1:23:53frozen at the aptness and yet the absolute ridiculous
1:23:53 > 1:23:55stupidity that we should be doing this.
1:23:55 > 1:23:58So it was a classic "putting on a brave face", I guess,
1:23:58 > 1:24:05and doing it in a showy way and not really dealing with the emotion.
1:24:05 > 1:24:09It was almost like we were just too damned self-conscious
1:24:09 > 1:24:12about maintaining a ridiculous kind of degraded cool,
1:24:12 > 1:24:14a kind of cool that in a way
1:24:14 > 1:24:17a lot of that thing at that time was meant to destroy.
1:24:17 > 1:24:20But we still, you know, didn't really talk to each other.
1:24:20 > 1:24:24The day Tony phoned me to tell me Ian had died, it was during that
1:24:24 > 1:24:28conversation that I suddenly thought of the cover we had.
1:24:31 > 1:24:35And I felt it necessary to point it out.
1:24:35 > 1:24:37And Tony was very concerned.
1:24:40 > 1:24:43The notions of...
1:24:43 > 1:24:48sensationalism or exploitation were lying there, and I said, "Tony,
1:24:48 > 1:24:51"we've got a tomb on the cover of the album."
1:24:51 > 1:24:53And he was like, "Oh, fuck."
1:25:01 > 1:25:09- TONY WILSON:- Cos Joy Division ends, and because it all ends with a jolt,
1:25:09 > 1:25:10the jolt of a rope...
1:25:12 > 1:25:15..there's a tendency to end the story there,
1:25:15 > 1:25:20and I think the important thing is not to end the story there.
1:25:20 > 1:25:22Why did we decide to carry on? We just carried on.
1:25:22 > 1:25:26We just never even thought, "Should we carry on or not carry on?"
1:25:26 > 1:25:28It was just we went to the funeral,
1:25:28 > 1:25:33we went to the wake at Palatine Road, and then it's, "So...
1:25:34 > 1:25:37"..Monday? Right, see you on Monday, then.
1:25:37 > 1:25:39That was it.
1:25:40 > 1:25:42SONG: Shadowplay
1:25:47 > 1:25:50# I'd do everything
1:25:50 > 1:25:52# Everything I wanted to
1:25:54 > 1:25:56# I let them use you
1:25:58 > 1:25:59# For their own ends
1:26:01 > 1:26:05# To the centre of the city in the night, looking for you
1:26:08 > 1:26:12# To the centre of the city in the night, waiting for you... #
1:26:15 > 1:26:19The beauty of Joy Division, that we did it, four of us.
1:26:19 > 1:26:21Didn't know what we were doing,
1:26:21 > 1:26:25didn't know why we were doing it, and the chemistry was unbelievable.
1:26:25 > 1:26:29And talk to one of us, and we didn't know. Maybe Ian might have known.
1:26:29 > 1:26:31I suppose that's summat we'll never find out.
1:26:31 > 1:26:35But, erm, you know, it was just pure chemistry of four people.
1:26:35 > 1:26:39And it was easy. It was easy writing those songs
1:26:39 > 1:26:43and playing that well. It was easy.
1:26:43 > 1:26:46And it only got difficult when he died.
1:27:07 > 1:27:08SONG ENDS
1:27:08 > 1:27:10CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
1:27:10 > 1:27:15The revolution that Joy Division created
1:27:15 > 1:27:18and were at the heart of and inspired many other people to take
1:27:18 > 1:27:23part in, of not differentiating between dance and rock,
1:27:23 > 1:27:25has resulted in this modern city,
1:27:25 > 1:27:30in what was the original modern city becoming again a modern city.
1:27:30 > 1:27:33MUSIC: Blue Monday by New Order
1:27:40 > 1:27:44The vibrancy of the city, the expectations of the city,
1:27:44 > 1:27:47all those things are the legacy of Joy Division.
1:27:49 > 1:27:52I think what they managed to do had a kind of truth to it that has
1:27:52 > 1:27:57sustained through the fluctuations of fashion, an integrity,
1:27:57 > 1:27:59something you can believe in,
1:27:59 > 1:28:01something that didn't seem to be just for the money, for the career.
1:28:01 > 1:28:03It was anti-industry,
1:28:03 > 1:28:06all the things that ultimately have seemed important to the
1:28:06 > 1:28:08maintenance of popular culture,
1:28:08 > 1:28:10the reinvention of what cool is.
1:28:10 > 1:28:13Those that exploit, you know,
1:28:13 > 1:28:16can make good use of something like Joy Division,
1:28:16 > 1:28:20because it explains some of the rules of what it is to be cool.
1:28:20 > 1:28:27The two works are Unknown Pleasures and Closer, and that's it.
1:28:27 > 1:28:31Everything else is merchandising...
1:28:32 > 1:28:35..merchandising of memory.
1:28:36 > 1:28:40We live in a time where brands are everything.
1:28:40 > 1:28:43But Joy Division were beyond all that,
1:28:43 > 1:28:46because you could simply trust what they were doing.
1:28:46 > 1:28:49Joy Division in particular, Factory in general,
1:28:49 > 1:28:51Ian's story...
1:28:51 > 1:28:55is one of the last true stories in pop.
1:28:55 > 1:28:59There are very few true stories...
1:28:59 > 1:29:01in a business-dominated pop culture.
1:29:02 > 1:29:04Yes, it's a fabulous story,
1:29:04 > 1:29:07the story of the rebuilding of a city that begins with them,
1:29:07 > 1:29:13the story of a tragic suicide and a moral story and a cultural,
1:29:13 > 1:29:15academic, intellectual, aesthetic story.
1:29:15 > 1:29:18But at the heart of it, it's only here cos they wrote great songs,
1:29:18 > 1:29:20and great songs never die.
1:29:21 > 1:29:23MUSIC: Atmosphere by Joy Division
1:29:23 > 1:29:27# Walk
1:29:27 > 1:29:31# In silence
1:29:31 > 1:29:34# Don't walk away
1:29:35 > 1:29:39# In silence
1:29:39 > 1:29:42# See the danger
1:29:43 > 1:29:47# Always danger
1:29:47 > 1:29:51# Endless talking
1:29:51 > 1:29:54# Life rebuilding
1:29:55 > 1:29:57# Don't walk away
1:30:27 > 1:30:31# Walk
1:30:31 > 1:30:35# In silence
1:30:35 > 1:30:38# Don't turn away
1:30:39 > 1:30:43# In silence
1:30:43 > 1:30:47# Your confusion
1:30:47 > 1:30:50# My illusion
1:30:51 > 1:30:54# Worn like a mask of self-hate
1:30:55 > 1:30:59# Confronts and then dies
1:30:59 > 1:31:01# Don't walk away... #