0:00:02 > 0:00:09This programme contains strong language
0:00:12 > 0:00:16"Dear John, please could you play some punk rock on your show for me?"
0:00:16 > 0:00:17Well, indeed, I can.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19Anyway, we'll hear a lot of music that may be punk rock
0:00:19 > 0:00:22and a lot that certainly is.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Well, life in Scotland in the '70s...
0:00:25 > 0:00:29Extremes, I suppose - I think the '70s was quite an extreme decade.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33- SIREN WAILS - A kind of sea of brown and denim.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35It still felt a bit, like, post-war, you know?
0:00:35 > 0:00:39It had that feeling of abandonment.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42We'd come through periods of time where the rubbish, you know,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44didn't get collected on the streets,
0:00:44 > 0:00:49and where power cuts were things that, you know, were expected.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53The sense of being apart, alienation, no future...
0:00:53 > 0:00:56Austere, I think, is the word.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Just coming from Scotland in the 1970s,
0:00:58 > 0:01:02you didn't really think you could be in a group that would be successful.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05There was... I mean, we had Pilot, I suppose.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08MUSIC: Magic by Pilot
0:01:17 > 0:01:19# Oh-ho-ho
0:01:19 > 0:01:21# It's magic... #
0:01:21 > 0:01:23I always wanted to be in a band.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25When I was three I was in a band with my grandad.
0:01:25 > 0:01:26We were called the Beatles.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30He was Ringo Starr and I was John Lennon, right?
0:01:30 > 0:01:32The Faces were my favourite band,
0:01:32 > 0:01:34but I have to admit that I did used to listen to
0:01:34 > 0:01:37my brother's Genesis albums.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40We were like explorers - the brand was an explorer.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I actually read quite a lot of military strategy.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48We all grew up with the Rolling Stones and the Beatles,
0:01:48 > 0:01:50but that was our big brothers' and sisters' music.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Well, I was a Bowie fan.
0:01:53 > 0:01:54You know, I made a guitar.
0:01:56 > 0:01:57You know these old egg slicers?
0:01:57 > 0:01:59It would have ten thin strings,
0:01:59 > 0:02:01and you'd lay the egg in and then press it down
0:02:01 > 0:02:03and it would slice the egg?
0:02:03 > 0:02:06I used to chase my dad around playing that, saying,
0:02:06 > 0:02:08"Buy me a guitar, buy me a guitar, buy me a guitar."
0:02:08 > 0:02:10And then down to the music shop,
0:02:10 > 0:02:12get you The Pianist's Picture Chords
0:02:12 > 0:02:14and that's it, you're all set.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Everyone was calling themselves Brian Puke or something like this,
0:02:18 > 0:02:20so I called myself Bobby Charm.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25The people who were there know what went on in 1977.
0:02:25 > 0:02:26We'll always have punk.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42It's a predictable thing to say, but there's certain periods in which,
0:02:42 > 0:02:44things like the late '60s or the earlier era of hip-hop,
0:02:44 > 0:02:46there seems to be a whole group for cultural reasons,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49or whatever reason, that are trying to express themselves
0:02:49 > 0:02:51differently or struggling to do something interesting,
0:02:51 > 0:02:54and it seemed like something like that was certainly happening in
0:02:54 > 0:02:56Edinburgh. You could feel it.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00I remember the Sex Pistols appearing in the NME or Melody Maker
0:03:00 > 0:03:02and it was just like, "Wow."
0:03:04 > 0:03:07And clearly the best-known band, I should think, in the country
0:03:07 > 0:03:09at the moment must be the Sex Pistols.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11Every night, at ten o'clock, John Peel,
0:03:11 > 0:03:16just when you heard, like, Anarchy In The UK on your wee radio under
0:03:16 > 0:03:17the covers, it was just like...
0:03:18 > 0:03:22Virgin Records had an appearance of the Sex Pistols,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25and we all went along and that's how we all met each other.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27Sid was nowhere to be seen,
0:03:27 > 0:03:31but Paul Cook and Steve Jones and John Lydon were there.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35I got John Lydon to sign a single I'd just bought.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40As I handed it to him to sign it, he went, "I despise you."
0:03:40 > 0:03:42And we were all like, "Oh, Johnny Rotten despises us!"
0:03:44 > 0:03:48It was one of those moments where you realised all the things you were
0:03:48 > 0:03:52feeling, about being slightly disenfranchised and being young
0:03:52 > 0:03:56and not having money, to suddenly be with a group of people,
0:03:56 > 0:03:57where you looked around and thought,
0:03:57 > 0:04:01"Oh, they're just like me," you know?
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Punk was a great thing for self-expression and all that,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07but walking down the street, you did get some stick,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10you know, if you were dressed in that kind of unusual way.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13I'm not talking about particularly strangely dressed, either.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15I mean, we didn't have dyed hair or anything -
0:04:15 > 0:04:17just straight-legged jeans was enough to get you
0:04:17 > 0:04:20some, you know, smart remarks.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22We weren't like London punks. We didn't have any money.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25There wasn't the bondage trousers and all that look.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29The look was very much making yourself look as cool as possible,
0:04:29 > 0:04:32because we'd all been into Bowie and stuff,
0:04:32 > 0:04:35so we immediately called ourselves glam punks.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37APPLAUSE
0:04:37 > 0:04:39And then the White Riot tour came.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41MUSIC: White Riot by The Clash
0:04:41 > 0:04:44# White riot I wanna riot... #
0:04:44 > 0:04:46It was a real year-zero moment.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49I mean, it was incredible.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53In May '77, the White Riot tour hit the east coast of Scotland,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56a star-studded bill of new punk heroes -
0:04:56 > 0:05:01The Clash, The Slits, and young soul rebels - Subway Sect.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07Yeah, the White Riot tour, on the big gigs,
0:05:07 > 0:05:10they had, like, multiple support acts
0:05:10 > 0:05:14and we were, like, relegated right down to
0:05:14 > 0:05:15not at the bottom of the bill,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17because we had The Prefects underneath us sometimes,
0:05:17 > 0:05:19or The Slits.
0:05:19 > 0:05:24Bands before that were...they were like divinities almost.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26They weren't connected at all, in any way,
0:05:26 > 0:05:29to the people who were out front,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31and that completely changed
0:05:31 > 0:05:35the very first time that The Slits walked on stage.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:05:37 > 0:05:41The singer, she walked on to the stage, right, and said,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43"Has anybody got a comb?"
0:05:43 > 0:05:48She asked the audience if anybody had a comb,
0:05:48 > 0:05:53and came down into the audience, so she had broken that barrier,
0:05:53 > 0:05:55and it was unbelievable.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57It was like,
0:05:57 > 0:05:59"I want this. I want more."
0:06:02 > 0:06:06A lot of people, they sort of got off on, like, The Slits
0:06:06 > 0:06:09and the Subway Sect more than they seemed to with The Clash,
0:06:09 > 0:06:13and took more ideas of that maybe they could do it themselves from us,
0:06:13 > 0:06:17rather than The Clash, who didn't actually make like anyone
0:06:17 > 0:06:20could have done it themselves, cos they had a bloody backdrop
0:06:20 > 0:06:23of about 120-foot long.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27You know, the band couldn't just go out and get an articulated lorry
0:06:27 > 0:06:29and carry a backdrop around with them,
0:06:29 > 0:06:31whereas they could just go down Oxfam,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35get a load of grey jumpers, like us, and go on stage.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42We were just ripe for it, for punk coming along, really.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47It was just, like, a total DIY, don't-give-a-fuck kind of thing
0:06:47 > 0:06:49that they were coming from,
0:06:49 > 0:06:50but it was intelligent.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53There was no polish to it,
0:06:53 > 0:06:55and that kind of kick-started everybody to think,
0:06:55 > 0:06:58"Well, there's not an enormous amount of musicianship
0:06:58 > 0:07:00"going on here, but there's a lot of energy.
0:07:00 > 0:07:01"We can do that."
0:07:01 > 0:07:06And out of this grew a whole new generation of musicians.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09MUSIC: Boredom by Buzzcocks
0:07:11 > 0:07:14There are certain records,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18tracks, songs, that you hear, and they stop you dead -
0:07:18 > 0:07:19Spiral Scratch was one.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22# Oh, yeah Well, I say what I mean... #
0:07:22 > 0:07:26I bought my then-boyfriend a copy of Spiral Scratch, and said,
0:07:26 > 0:07:27"You've got to listen to this."
0:07:27 > 0:07:29# Boredom
0:07:29 > 0:07:32# Boredom
0:07:32 > 0:07:33# Boredom... #
0:07:33 > 0:07:37Hilary's boyfriend was Bob Last, an ex-student of architecture.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42He had a plan to build an empire with his company, Fast Product.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46He had the vision, he had the name, but he didn't have the product.
0:07:48 > 0:07:55I guess I was an aspiring entrepreneur or impresario.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58I wasn't brought up on pop music.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00I listened to Spiral Scratch and I thought,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04"OK, this is what Fast Product should do,"
0:08:04 > 0:08:08and went out to find what I would...
0:08:08 > 0:08:11you know, my Spiral Scratch.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13# Take the money... #
0:08:13 > 0:08:15Bob and Hilary were roadying with The Rezillos,
0:08:15 > 0:08:19an Edinburgh garage punk band who'd been on the go since '76.
0:08:19 > 0:08:24# Everybody's on Top Of The Pops... #
0:08:24 > 0:08:26When the punk thing started up,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28you know, they didn't start and then we joined on it -
0:08:28 > 0:08:29we all started up about the same time.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31And it was also like,
0:08:31 > 0:08:35"There's something about our attitude which is the same."
0:08:35 > 0:08:36We just got up and did it, really.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38# Hold tight... #
0:08:38 > 0:08:41We weren't taken seriously by any of the other bands
0:08:41 > 0:08:43that were on the go at the time.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45They used to think we were taking the piss, right,
0:08:45 > 0:08:47which in a way we were, I suppose.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49I mean, The Rezillos, they were part of that scene,
0:08:49 > 0:08:51and it was a very small scene,
0:08:51 > 0:08:53so you'd go around the country and play a gig
0:08:53 > 0:08:55and you're going to meet everyone who's in a band.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58Bob was just one of them people that used his own initiative quite a bit,
0:08:58 > 0:09:03and he was the obvious choice to manage the group, you know?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06He was very creative and had a lot of ideas.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Erm...
0:09:08 > 0:09:10Maybe a tad pretentious.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14I was interested in Mao's military strategy.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16I mean, God knows why.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18We went along on a number of gigs,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21and through that we started to see these other bands
0:09:21 > 0:09:23all over Britain and we thought,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26"Right, why don't we do a record label?"
0:09:26 > 0:09:28And so Fast Product was born.
0:09:29 > 0:09:30Over two short years,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33only a dozen records would be released on the label,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36but, from the word go, it challenged the might of the majors,
0:09:36 > 0:09:39and paved the way for Factory and more.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43I don't honestly think any of us, at the time, had any idea what an
0:09:43 > 0:09:47important cultural thing Fast would actually be.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Before Factory, and, you know, pretty much at the same time
0:09:49 > 0:09:51if not slightly before Rough Trade,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54oh, yeah, Fast Product were right there at the start of it.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57Fast would channel the homespun energy of punk
0:09:57 > 0:10:01and create a label where the image was as important as the music.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05We started growing the label out of a flat in Keir Street,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08and, as is always the case in big cultural movements,
0:10:08 > 0:10:14the local bar has an important, you know, role to play.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16The pub shut at ten!
0:10:16 > 0:10:17That was it.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19The pub shut at ten and that was it,
0:10:19 > 0:10:20so it was all back to mine.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25That winter of 1977 and '78,
0:10:25 > 0:10:30when Bob and Hilary were collecting people and collecting sounds,
0:10:30 > 0:10:32was amazing.
0:10:32 > 0:10:33They were collaborators.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Hilary was, kind of, the heart of it, I think.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37She gave it heart,
0:10:37 > 0:10:39and I think that was probably the first time that
0:10:39 > 0:10:42I'd come across a woman like that, who was so strong.
0:10:42 > 0:10:43- It was "Bob and Hilary".- No.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45It wasn't "Bob's girlfriend".
0:10:45 > 0:10:49Equivalent to, sort of, Malcolm McLaren and Vivienne Westwood.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52He had a big flat - it had big high ceilings and huge windows,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54and it was full of art,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56you know, a lot of which he'd created himself.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58It was on the top floor,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01so we used to go up there and make toasties and have cups of tea
0:11:01 > 0:11:03and things like that.
0:11:03 > 0:11:05I remember a Dalek in the corner of the room,
0:11:05 > 0:11:07and I found out it was, like, a Rezillos prop.
0:11:07 > 0:11:11In yellow on the walls, Bob had written in big letters,
0:11:11 > 0:11:13"this is luxury",
0:11:13 > 0:11:15and that just seemed so radical.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18We would talk about films, books...
0:11:18 > 0:11:19We'd even do the...
0:11:19 > 0:11:21It sounds really pretentious now,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24but, I mean, we'd even do a little bit of cutting up of stuff
0:11:24 > 0:11:25and doing a bit of art.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27It was a place where ideas hatched.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Many bands were hatched there, too.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Keir Street was the hub of the thriving arts scene
0:11:35 > 0:11:36in Edinburgh at the time,
0:11:36 > 0:11:40and flat two was its beating heart.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42The future Fire Engines hung out there,
0:11:42 > 0:11:44The Ettes, The Twinsets,
0:11:44 > 0:11:46The Thursdays, The Flowers...
0:11:46 > 0:11:49The list was, quite literally, long.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53And popping in for the occasional toastie was the band who would
0:11:53 > 0:11:56rewrite the punk manifesto, the Scars,
0:11:56 > 0:11:58formed by brothers Paul and John Mackie.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02We wanted to write pop songs, you know,
0:12:02 > 0:12:07but we wanted them to have energy and we wanted them to be different.
0:12:08 > 0:12:09We put an advert in
0:12:09 > 0:12:10a record shop window.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12It was called Hot Licks and we knew
0:12:12 > 0:12:13that we wanted a real front man who
0:12:13 > 0:12:15was going to perform.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18One day I was in Hot Licks,
0:12:18 > 0:12:22and I saw an advert by a band called the Scars
0:12:22 > 0:12:23who were looking for a singer,
0:12:23 > 0:12:25so I decided to phone them up.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29I did a rehearsal with them,
0:12:29 > 0:12:31what you would call an audition of sorts.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33But it was quite a fantastic audition.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35I've got to hand it to Robert.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37It was almost like one of those horror films
0:12:37 > 0:12:39where the scary character elevates themself into the air
0:12:39 > 0:12:42in a, sort of, Exorcist-type fashion.
0:12:42 > 0:12:43SCREAMING
0:12:43 > 0:12:44And started shaking,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46and it was the most incredible thing I've ever seen.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Oh, yeah!
0:12:48 > 0:12:51So I sort of looked across at John and I thought,
0:12:51 > 0:12:53"We've really got a live one here."
0:12:53 > 0:12:55YEAH, YEAH!
0:12:55 > 0:12:57The other guy was so frightened by his performance
0:12:57 > 0:13:00that he just got up and left!
0:13:00 > 0:13:02So that was it - he had the gig.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06This wasn't the only band of brothers in town.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10Russell and Tam Dean Burn had formed
0:13:10 > 0:13:13anarchic combo The Dirty Reds.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15There was a sort of
0:13:15 > 0:13:16budding of politics in me,
0:13:16 > 0:13:18and that's why I wanted to
0:13:18 > 0:13:21call our band The Dirty Reds.
0:13:21 > 0:13:25And one of the first songs we wrote was called The Rich Reds.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28"Here come the rich reds, from underneath their waterbeds."
0:13:31 > 0:13:32Walk on stage.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36Russell, you'd have seen him with his drum set.
0:13:36 > 0:13:37He was the local butcher up in Clermiston,
0:13:37 > 0:13:40but he also was a jazz drummer and he had a kit.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43What he was doing to earn money was he was going rabbiting up
0:13:43 > 0:13:47Clermiston Hill and selling the rabbits to the butcher.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51So, he convinced me that I'd front the money for the drum kit
0:13:51 > 0:13:53and he'd go ferreting to make the money back.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56Of course, Russell was at that age where he'd started smoking and
0:13:56 > 0:13:59drinking and he never went ferreting and he still owes me the money!
0:13:59 > 0:14:01COWBELL CLANGS
0:14:01 > 0:14:03The Dirty Reds split into Dirty Reds Two,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06featuring the young Davy Henderson on guitar,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09and The Flowers, with Hilary on vocals.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12# He said he really liked me And did I take the pill?
0:14:12 > 0:14:15# I sprayed myself with Charlie and I'm ready for the kill... #
0:14:15 > 0:14:18I had written a lot of lyrics that were all sort of
0:14:18 > 0:14:20angry young woman lyrics,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23but it made me sick with nerves half the time.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28There was lots of eventful gigs, involving lacerations
0:14:28 > 0:14:32and almost decapitations, etc.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37Our first gig was for the Edinburgh University Communist Society,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40in some hall up in the university.
0:14:41 > 0:14:46And I do remember it was, like, Russell threw the cymbal,
0:14:46 > 0:14:49and it was, like, you know, just sort of flying through the air.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52If that had have hit somebody, it would have been death.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55But the music, in a way, strangely,
0:14:55 > 0:14:59was less important than the excitement of the feeling that
0:14:59 > 0:15:01you were doing something new.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06One thing that differentiated Edinburgh amongst other sort of
0:15:06 > 0:15:10punk movements in the country was the fact that people wanted to
0:15:10 > 0:15:14move on from punk really quickly and make their own original music,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17and punk was a starting point, but it wasn't supposed to be,
0:15:17 > 0:15:19you know, perfecting a formula.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26Always in the vanguard were The Scars,
0:15:26 > 0:15:29pushing boundaries with their confrontational
0:15:29 > 0:15:31and provocative image.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34They were 17. Really, at that time, they were just...
0:15:34 > 0:15:35Nobody could touch them.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38Super-intelligent boys, and they could really play.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40That was the thing - they could all play.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45Our original sound was based on what kind of instruments we had.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49You know, I made a guitar, but, you know, I couldn't afford to buy one.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51And it was really overdriven at the top end.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53It was just a sound that I really liked.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55It sounded like nobody else was making.
0:15:55 > 0:15:59Sometimes, you know, equipment got damaged and tempers were lost,
0:15:59 > 0:16:01but it was all real.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Glam rock was a big influence on The Scars,
0:16:03 > 0:16:06and it allowed us to start wearing make-up.
0:16:06 > 0:16:08Like, everybody else was dressing up in an aggressive way,
0:16:08 > 0:16:11so we would dress up in a kind of feminine-type way.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Bobby King would have ladies' shoes on, high-heeled shoes,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18big permed hair and big earrings, and he'd be booed.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21But because he was so cool and so strong,
0:16:21 > 0:16:23the boos would turn into cheers,
0:16:23 > 0:16:25because he was like, "I'm having you, you fuck.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27"I'm having you, the audience."
0:16:27 > 0:16:29He had such conviction.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32We'd come on stage, and people would shout, "Poofters," or whatever,
0:16:32 > 0:16:35like that, so I would usually start the gig by saying,
0:16:35 > 0:16:37"Well, anybody that wants to fight us,
0:16:37 > 0:16:40"you're welcome to meet us backstage after the gig."
0:16:40 > 0:16:41Nobody ever came backstage.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47With unbridled confidence and charisma,
0:16:47 > 0:16:49The Scars knew they were the best band in town.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:16:51 > 0:16:55That is a letter that Paul from The Scars
0:16:55 > 0:17:01wrote to Siouxsie Sioux and delivered to her backstage,
0:17:01 > 0:17:02about how much...
0:17:02 > 0:17:05"I hate you. I hate your band.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09"I've seen them only once, and I would never go to see you again.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11"You were shit.
0:17:11 > 0:17:16"Boring, derivative music has always made me sick, and you're the worst.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19"Yours sincerely, Paul from The Scars."
0:17:19 > 0:17:20I found that the other day.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22GUITAR FEEDBACK HOWLS
0:17:28 > 0:17:29On tour with the Rezillos,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32Bob and Hilary were on the hunt for their Spiral Scratch.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38We were like explorers - the brand was an explorer -
0:17:38 > 0:17:44but I liked the idea of the mass market.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48Our thing was always have as much control as you can, because, then,
0:17:48 > 0:17:52you're much more likely to be able,
0:17:52 > 0:17:55not necessarily always to do what you want,
0:17:55 > 0:17:59but to do more of what you want than a major record label,
0:17:59 > 0:18:01who's just controlling you, would ever let you do.
0:18:01 > 0:18:02One, two, three, four!
0:18:02 > 0:18:04# Living in a rut... #
0:18:04 > 0:18:06Challenging the mainstream was the aim,
0:18:06 > 0:18:10and they recognised a similar spirit of subversion in punk provocateurs
0:18:10 > 0:18:14The Mekons, who would be the first band to sign to Fast.
0:18:16 > 0:18:21They were an exemplar of having a world of ideas and absolutely no
0:18:21 > 0:18:27interest in musical competence for its own sake,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29which was, kind of, part of what appealed.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32If it somehow worked or had an attitude that I thought
0:18:32 > 0:18:37was interesting, I absolutely didn't care about, musically,
0:18:37 > 0:18:39what rules it transgressed.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43I went to the bank manager
0:18:43 > 0:18:46and I told him I wanted to borrow 400 quid to put a record out,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48and he said, "OK."
0:18:48 > 0:18:52And so we got them up here and recorded them in a cottage
0:18:52 > 0:18:53in the Borders.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55Someone said, "Oh, I think my uncle's got a place
0:18:55 > 0:18:57"in the country we can go to."
0:18:57 > 0:19:01We get down there and discover...
0:19:01 > 0:19:03it was all locked up.
0:19:03 > 0:19:04His uncle only stayed there sometimes,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06so the long and short of it was,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10The Mekons' first record started by breaking into a house...
0:19:10 > 0:19:12- SHE LAUGHS - ..in the middle of nowhere.
0:19:12 > 0:19:17And I was quite small, so I was posted...put through a window,
0:19:17 > 0:19:19let everyone in, took over this house for the weekend,
0:19:19 > 0:19:22recorded The Mekons' single.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25It was one thing to make a record,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28but quite another to get it out to the masses.
0:19:28 > 0:19:29I didn't have a clue how to do it.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32I just assumed I'd made something fucking great.
0:19:32 > 0:19:33I'm going to find a way of...
0:19:33 > 0:19:35There are going to be people who want to buy it.
0:19:35 > 0:19:36I mean, it was that simple.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39I got sent on the overnight bus to go down to London
0:19:39 > 0:19:43to talk Rough Trade into taking on the record.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46And, famously, Rough Trade...
0:19:46 > 0:19:48said it was the worst-played record they'd ever heard
0:19:48 > 0:19:50and they weren't stocking it.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54And to this day, I torture Geoff Travis with the fact that
0:19:54 > 0:19:57he would not release our first record on the grounds of
0:19:57 > 0:19:58it not being musically competent.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Indie distributors Rough Trade may have knocked him back,
0:20:02 > 0:20:06but, undeterred, Bob found an outlet through a Scottish chain
0:20:06 > 0:20:08which championed new, cutting-edge music.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13Well, Bruce's was an absolute focus for the punk movement.
0:20:13 > 0:20:14Bruce is a big music fan,
0:20:14 > 0:20:17and we had all the punks of Edinburgh coming into the shop,
0:20:17 > 0:20:18you know, pretty much every day of the week -
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Bob Last and Hilary Morrison and that -
0:20:20 > 0:20:22and they were bringing a box of 25 to start things off with.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26I don't think we started really selling things
0:20:26 > 0:20:29until it got reviewed in the NME -
0:20:29 > 0:20:31they made it single of the week.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33That's the equivalent these days of it suddenly
0:20:33 > 0:20:36trending on Twitter or whatever.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38MUSIC: Damaged Goods by Gang Of Four
0:20:38 > 0:20:41Bob and Hilary quickly built on that success by signing
0:20:41 > 0:20:44Sheffield electronic pioneers 2.3,
0:20:44 > 0:20:47and agitprop, postpunk outfit Gang Of Four,
0:20:47 > 0:20:51and their debut single took Fast to number one in the indie charts.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54# Your sweat so sour
0:20:54 > 0:20:56# Sometimes I'm thinking that I love you... #
0:20:56 > 0:20:58It was one of the coolest independent labels in Britain,
0:20:58 > 0:21:02in fact, if not the coolest, because at that time
0:21:02 > 0:21:04Factory Records didn't exist.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08One of my mates came into our office with the first Gang Of Four thing,
0:21:08 > 0:21:11and the packaging and everything on those Fast releases,
0:21:11 > 0:21:12I mean, it influenced Factory...
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Amazing, I mean, Bob, what Bob Last did with it.
0:21:14 > 0:21:18He was the template for early, cool, indie things, you know?
0:21:18 > 0:21:22Many people involved in punk thought that this was all some sort of
0:21:22 > 0:21:23grubby marketing thing.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25We took the opposite point of view.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27We said, "Actually, one of the reasons we are excited about doing
0:21:27 > 0:21:31"this is because I like deploying packaging and marketing."
0:21:31 > 0:21:36Brand was what would give us power to introduce music to people that
0:21:36 > 0:21:39they wouldn't otherwise hear.
0:21:39 > 0:21:40The idea was that, you know,
0:21:40 > 0:21:43you had to have all the Fast Record records in sequence
0:21:43 > 0:21:45because it was like an oeuvre.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47It was a bit like collecting trading cards, you know,
0:21:47 > 0:21:49bubble-gum cards or something.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52You wanted to be part of this scene.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Bob is a conceptualist.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58You know, he was doing all these things with posters and artwork
0:21:58 > 0:22:00about consumerism,
0:22:00 > 0:22:03the kind of stuff that's absolutely accepted nowadays,
0:22:03 > 0:22:05but then it seemed quite unusual.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09We famously released and successfully sold bits of
0:22:09 > 0:22:10rotting orange peel.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14The point about that was to make a point,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17that if we...if you put it in a different context,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19even rotting orange peel may have a value.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22For Bob, concept was king.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25The distinctive look and radical approach of Fast marked them out
0:22:25 > 0:22:29from the crowd, and began to attract interest worldwide.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34I can remember him playing a tape that he'd just got from America,
0:22:34 > 0:22:37and it was Human Fly, it was The Cramps, and Rab hated it.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41He was like, "It's just rock and roll. I don't see it."
0:22:41 > 0:22:44And for whatever reason, Bob decided not to take them on.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46MUSIC: Being Boiled by The Human League
0:22:46 > 0:22:47OK, ready. Let's do it.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50That was a really interesting period.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53I went up to Bob's one afternoon,
0:22:53 > 0:22:59and he'd received a cassette from a band and a letter on silver foil,
0:22:59 > 0:23:01and it was the flipping Human League.
0:23:01 > 0:23:06# Listen to the voice of Buddha
0:23:06 > 0:23:09# Saying stop your sericulture... #
0:23:09 > 0:23:11We, as The Human League,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14never had any idea that anybody would ever be interested
0:23:14 > 0:23:17in putting out any of our stuff.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22Paul Bower, so he was in 2.3, he was the lead singer and writer.
0:23:22 > 0:23:27I met as a fellow trainee manager at the Co-op in Sheffield,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30boning bacon and stacking shelves.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34He was the one who heard Being Boiled.
0:23:34 > 0:23:36He said, "You've got to send this to Bob.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38"I reckon he'll really like it. I think it's brilliant."
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Kind of, "What are you talking about?"
0:23:40 > 0:23:41First of all, it was in mono,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43and nobody was going to want to buy a mono record, you know.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47# Is no excuse for thoughtless slaying... #
0:23:47 > 0:23:49They'd put the record out before I ever met them.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53I don't know if we even spoke on the phone, I just rang back and said,
0:23:53 > 0:23:55"Yeah, great, I want to put it out now."
0:23:55 > 0:24:00A very strange combination of apparently incredibly significant
0:24:00 > 0:24:04and important lyrics that also insisted on being
0:24:04 > 0:24:07completely meaningless and poppy at the same time,
0:24:07 > 0:24:09and I loved that tension,
0:24:09 > 0:24:12and so they had me straight away.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14Next thing you know, it's out,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16and John Peel's playing it on a regular basis on his show.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18Kind of, "This is utterly crazy."
0:24:18 > 0:24:24It sold like, I think, around about 5,000 in ten weeks.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26It was phenomenal, you know,
0:24:26 > 0:24:28and that was the kind of thing that was happening
0:24:28 > 0:24:30almost on a weekly basis, you know?
0:24:30 > 0:24:32It was heaven, because, musically,
0:24:32 > 0:24:34you didn't know what was happening next.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38If there was a market for cutting-edge electronic music,
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Bob was happy to exploit it.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42And there was.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47Anything that challenged the status quo was desirable,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50and the status quo was now punk.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52BELL RINGS
0:24:52 > 0:24:57Punk itself settled into an incredibly antiquated
0:24:57 > 0:25:00and geriatric set of rules about what was and wasn't punk,
0:25:00 > 0:25:04which, you know, we were already completely uninterested in.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09Punk turned into postpunk very quickly, really.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11You know, the board has been wiped clean,
0:25:11 > 0:25:13so it was a question of, kind of, starting again.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15Everything had changed.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18There was a complete sort of cultural shift.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23SIRENS WAIL
0:25:25 > 0:25:28By now, The Dirty Reds had evolved into another band,
0:25:28 > 0:25:31with Davy on vocals and his old school friend Murray on guitar.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36The name is a good one, actually.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39The first piece of literary work that I ever got published,
0:25:39 > 0:25:43possibly the only, was when I was six years old at school,
0:25:43 > 0:25:45and it was a poem about fire engines.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47MUSIC: Get Up And Use Me by Fire Engines
0:25:47 > 0:25:50You know, they're red, they're noisy...
0:25:52 > 0:25:54What I loved about that when I was a young guy was just
0:25:54 > 0:25:57the fucking rawness, man, do you know what I mean?
0:25:57 > 0:25:58# Use me... #
0:25:58 > 0:26:01HE SINGS ALONG WITH GUITAR RIFF
0:26:01 > 0:26:03Just fucking amazing.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07It seemed like they just wanted to drive forward at full tilt,
0:26:07 > 0:26:09all other considerations secondary.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12Our main objective was to have something that was not laid-back
0:26:12 > 0:26:14in any way. Laid-back was just bad.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20The Fire Engines were just, I mean, what you might call an enigma.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24And I remember, very early on, meeting...
0:26:24 > 0:26:27seeing them come into the Tap O' Lauriston.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30They all walked in and they'd got this job lot of
0:26:30 > 0:26:33long, kind of, overcoats,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37and they just...and they looked like a band.
0:26:37 > 0:26:42The Fire Engines were famous for really short, aggressive,
0:26:42 > 0:26:45explosive attacks of sets, you know,
0:26:45 > 0:26:48maybe ten to 15 minutes long, and it was
0:26:48 > 0:26:50kind of astounding to see.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54People would say, "You only played for 15 minutes,"
0:26:54 > 0:26:56and it was like, "Well, who wants to...?"
0:26:56 > 0:26:58You're only famous for 15 minutes.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01I think Fire Engines were one of the best Scottish bands ever.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04Totally underrated.
0:27:04 > 0:27:05Amazing live band.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08They should have been a really big one.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10We had a song called Discord,
0:27:10 > 0:27:13and Malc was like, "You should put that out. It's really poppy.
0:27:13 > 0:27:14"It's like Blondie."
0:27:14 > 0:27:17And he said, "Definitely not Get Up And Use Me."
0:27:21 > 0:27:23Use me.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25# Use me... #
0:27:25 > 0:27:27They clubbed together with a couple of friends,
0:27:27 > 0:27:28Angus Groovy and Paul Steen,
0:27:28 > 0:27:32and made Get Up And Use Me for around 100 quid.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34I don't know... I think there was maybe 1,000 copies.
0:27:34 > 0:27:38There was a big box of vinyl and a big box of sleeves.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Angus would start gluing, and expecting us to glue,
0:27:41 > 0:27:44and we'd wake up at 6.30 in the evening,
0:27:44 > 0:27:47and sneak out of the house, and walk into Edinburgh
0:27:47 > 0:27:50and try and find somebody to buy us a drink,
0:27:50 > 0:27:52and he'd be gluing away in the dark.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57It actually got reviewed in the NME,
0:27:57 > 0:27:59and that was just, like, unbelievable.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01It just changed everything.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04It just turned your mind around completely.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11BELL TOLLS
0:28:15 > 0:28:16By early '79,
0:28:16 > 0:28:21Bob and Hilary had amassed a roster of eclectic northern talent on Fast,
0:28:21 > 0:28:24and Bob decided that it was time to shift the label's focus
0:28:24 > 0:28:25closer to home.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30What I always thought was interesting about Fast Product was,
0:28:30 > 0:28:34when it started, it was primarily northern English groups that were
0:28:34 > 0:28:35involved in the label,
0:28:35 > 0:28:39but where it really became charged for me was
0:28:39 > 0:28:40when they signed the Scars.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43MUSIC: Adult/ery by Scars
0:28:46 > 0:28:50In late-summer 1977, we did our first gig in Balerno,
0:28:50 > 0:28:55and it was like a whole year passed, and meanwhile, The Mekons came out,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58the Gang Of Four, The Human League, and I was like,
0:28:58 > 0:29:00"Are we never going to get our chance to make a record?"
0:29:02 > 0:29:05I can very clearly remember seeing Roxy Music
0:29:05 > 0:29:07on the Old Grey Whistle Test,
0:29:07 > 0:29:10but, you know, that moment was why,
0:29:10 > 0:29:13when I first saw the Scars actually play,
0:29:13 > 0:29:15that was my reference point where, "I get this."
0:29:15 > 0:29:18MUSIC: Horrorshow by Scars
0:29:20 > 0:29:24I mean, a lot of people suggest that Blue Boy by Orange Juice was
0:29:24 > 0:29:27the start of the whole explosion, you know,
0:29:27 > 0:29:31and that Blue Boy was like Scotland's Anarchy In The UK.
0:29:31 > 0:29:32I don't think it was.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35I think it was Adult/ery and Horrorshow on Fast Product
0:29:35 > 0:29:36by the Scars.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40# Tolchocked a baboochka Just a mite too horrorshow... #
0:29:40 > 0:29:43He took us to Rochdale, to Rochdale of all places,
0:29:43 > 0:29:47to record our first single, and it was...it happened really quickly.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49It was quite raw.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53Horrorshow was essentially just a synopsis of A Clockwork Orange.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56It was called possibly the most violent song ever written,
0:29:56 > 0:29:58just because of the nature of the lyrics.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02# Baboochka died that very night Got 14 years in zoo-time... #
0:30:02 > 0:30:03That exploded.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06That was just incredible, and it still sounds incredible.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10It was just an amazing kind of mission statement,
0:30:10 > 0:30:13and the fact that Fast Product had signed, you know,
0:30:13 > 0:30:15a band from Edinburgh,
0:30:15 > 0:30:17it just felt like Scotland was alive.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23New labels, clubs and fanzines were in proliferation.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27There was bands springing up everywhere,
0:30:27 > 0:30:29fanzines on the grass-root level,
0:30:29 > 0:30:32people putting out their own independent records
0:30:32 > 0:30:33and stuff like that.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35In what seemed a completely mad move,
0:30:35 > 0:30:39I decided to set up a small, live event on a Tuesday night -
0:30:39 > 0:30:40why Tuesday night, I don't know -
0:30:40 > 0:30:42at a place called the Aquarius on Grindlay Street.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46It immediately became apparent there was a whole other culture and group
0:30:46 > 0:30:48of acts that were doing really exciting things.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51Alan started his own label, Rational,
0:30:51 > 0:30:56which went on to hone The Visitors, The Delmontes, and Article 58.
0:30:56 > 0:31:01We used to support bands like A Certain Ratio, the Scars...
0:31:01 > 0:31:03It was quite a fertile time.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06Everyone was involved and trying to do things.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08Well, there was a bit of band rivalry, obviously,
0:31:08 > 0:31:10but we were all very supportive of each other.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13We'd borrow equipment from each other, share PAs,
0:31:13 > 0:31:16and put on gigs together, so that we could get gigs.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18Cos folk would just do it for...
0:31:18 > 0:31:20because they were into it and cos they enjoyed it.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22I mean, now everyone wants to be paid for everything,
0:31:22 > 0:31:23but then it was...
0:31:23 > 0:31:25It was just for the fun of it then.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28Steven Daly, drummer with Glasgow band The New Sonics,
0:31:28 > 0:31:31was one such enthusiast.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34He had his own label, Absolute, and wanted to sign an austere,
0:31:34 > 0:31:37uncompromising Edinburgh outfit.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40He loved the sound, if only they'd change their name.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44They should have kept their name as TVR -
0:31:44 > 0:31:47they would have been big now, but they changed it to Josef K.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50I mean, that sounds like something out of a book, right?
0:31:50 > 0:31:55OK. This is Josef K, and it's called Chance Meeting.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58MUSIC: Chance Meeting by Josef K
0:32:00 > 0:32:04For me, anyway, in Edinburgh at that time, there were three bands that
0:32:04 > 0:32:06I saw live that were absolutely sensational -
0:32:06 > 0:32:09The Associates, the Fire Engines, and Josef K.
0:32:10 > 0:32:14All of the members of Josef K, we all went to the same high school.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16I knew of Malcolm and David.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20They weren't sort of in my gang, as it were.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22They were far too intellectual.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25# The red sky behind you
0:32:27 > 0:32:30# The feeling you've been here before... #
0:32:31 > 0:32:32A lot of people look back and say,
0:32:32 > 0:32:35"How did they sound like that? What was it all about?"
0:32:35 > 0:32:38We wanted to try and get people to dance,
0:32:38 > 0:32:40and in Edinburgh that was a difficult job.
0:32:40 > 0:32:41# You looked in the past, dear... #
0:32:41 > 0:32:44I mean, I was heavily into James Brown and stuff,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48and to make the marriage of the abrasive, slightly punk,
0:32:48 > 0:32:51New Wave guitars with a sort of straight beat
0:32:51 > 0:32:53was something we were definitely trying to do.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59A lot of the stuff about punk in music in '77 and '78
0:32:59 > 0:33:01was everyone was using fuzz boxes.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04So, I was taking that clean, trebly guitar sound
0:33:04 > 0:33:07and trying to really take it to an extreme.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10It just felt right - a bit calmer than punk.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15The first time I saw Josef K, they played with an incredible intensity,
0:33:15 > 0:33:17and I remember thinking at that point,
0:33:17 > 0:33:20"This feels exciting, and it feels like somebody should be doing
0:33:20 > 0:33:21"something about these guys."
0:33:22 > 0:33:27Alan became their manager and the gigs started rolling in.
0:33:27 > 0:33:28They were so great,
0:33:28 > 0:33:32and we were jealous of these guys that could play anything.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36We exchanged unpleasantries,
0:33:36 > 0:33:41and I think there might have been some fists - very small ones -
0:33:41 > 0:33:43teenage fists.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46But then we became great friends after that,
0:33:46 > 0:33:50just through a shared interest in Lucky Strike cigarettes.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00By 1979, Fast Products' unconventional approach
0:34:00 > 0:34:04marked them out from the burgeoning indie market,
0:34:04 > 0:34:08and the label became as much of a story as the bands.
0:34:08 > 0:34:13We really were inundated after the first three or four singles,
0:34:13 > 0:34:17and this is where the idea of the Earcoms came in.
0:34:17 > 0:34:18It was Earcomming -
0:34:18 > 0:34:22the idea being like a music magazine where you got a taster -
0:34:22 > 0:34:26and it was to give a snapshot of very, very, very different things
0:34:26 > 0:34:27that were happening.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32Kier Street alumni, The Thursdays, were featured,
0:34:32 > 0:34:35fronted by cult poet Paul Reekie.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37Gin is remarkably potent.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41If you want to get flat drunk, it'll make you that way.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44It'll make you pissed through this into the next day...
0:34:44 > 0:34:51Paul used to start the set with a Nico poem, Frozen Warnings,
0:34:51 > 0:34:53and then we joined him on stage,
0:34:53 > 0:34:57and we were ducking bottles because we weren't thrashing out.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59MUSIC: From Safety To Where? by Joy Division
0:34:59 > 0:35:01# No, I don't know just why... #
0:35:01 > 0:35:02For the second issue,
0:35:02 > 0:35:06Bob and Hilary released a couple of tracks by a Manchester band they'd
0:35:06 > 0:35:07been on the brink of signing.
0:35:08 > 0:35:12Jo Callis and I, in particular, were huge fans of Warsaw,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15the precursor of Joy Division,
0:35:15 > 0:35:19and we would give them support slots whenever we could,
0:35:19 > 0:35:24and we had on-and-off discussions about releasing them.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27We had turned down the original Joy Division,
0:35:27 > 0:35:30cos I knew what the name meant and it...I was uncomfortable.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34Joy Division is a reference to the
0:35:34 > 0:35:39corps of prostitutes that the Nazis created for their military,
0:35:39 > 0:35:42and I think they were playing with iconography the same way we did,
0:35:42 > 0:35:44and they were being provocative.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47I since met them. When Ian Curtis came off, he was a lovely guy.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50He liked cats. He came to visit us and it was all fine,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53but, you know, I had reservations.
0:35:53 > 0:35:55We played a few dates with the Rezillos,
0:35:55 > 0:35:57- and Bob Last was their manager at the time.- Yeah.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59We'd always sort of kept in touch.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03He mentioned his idea for Earcom,
0:36:03 > 0:36:07and we just offered him, you know, the two tracks.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11They gave me the tracks cos I asked them.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13You know, you don't get something if you don't ask for it.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20"From Safety to Where?" was written in the studio,
0:36:20 > 0:36:22and Bernard didn't like it, I remember,
0:36:22 > 0:36:27and he put very, very reluctant guitar on it.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29- It just goes... That goes... - HE SQUEAKS
0:36:29 > 0:36:33It's like the least you could possibly do on a track,
0:36:33 > 0:36:34but it worked.
0:36:40 > 0:36:42Joy Division instead signed to Tony Wilson's
0:36:42 > 0:36:45fledgling indie label, Factory.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48Tony Wilson, when he started setting up Factory,
0:36:48 > 0:36:52he called me up many times to ask about, "Well, how do you do this?"
0:36:53 > 0:36:57And there are some things about what he did which come from a similar
0:36:57 > 0:36:58place as what we were doing.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00They turned out to be great friends,
0:37:00 > 0:37:04and they did actually inspire each other.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07People like Tony Wilson and people like Bob Last
0:37:07 > 0:37:09are very few and far between in this business.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12They aren't out for themselves - it's all about the music.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15Fast 13, that was Factory.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18That's my view.
0:37:18 > 0:37:22I just never told them that they had a catalogue number until now.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24RADIO STATIC
0:37:27 > 0:37:30Indie labels now ruled the airwaves -
0:37:30 > 0:37:32in the evenings, at least.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35Well, it was... You know, in the late '70s, as it hit 1980,
0:37:35 > 0:37:37it was an incredibly transformative moment in music,
0:37:37 > 0:37:40cos it was that stage beyond punk,
0:37:40 > 0:37:45which was obviously given the name possibly by me - postpunk.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47It certainly splattered the idea that music could come from
0:37:47 > 0:37:48anywhere around the country,
0:37:48 > 0:37:51so suddenly you started to pay attention to other places -
0:37:51 > 0:37:55you know, Liverpool, Manchester, Yorkshire, Scotland. You know?
0:37:55 > 0:37:57PIGEON COOS
0:38:02 > 0:38:04BELL TOLLS
0:38:06 > 0:38:10The tinderbox of punk had been slow to ignite over on the West Coast.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13Punk was banned in Glasgow, though, wasn't it?
0:38:13 > 0:38:16Cos I thought Glasgow Council said they weren't allowed to
0:38:16 > 0:38:18play any punk gigs, anyone.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21One of the earliest so-called punk gigs was a gig
0:38:21 > 0:38:23at the City Halls in Glasgow.
0:38:23 > 0:38:24The Stranglers headlined it,
0:38:24 > 0:38:27and, at the end of the gig, fans invaded the stage,
0:38:27 > 0:38:28and the gig got abandoned.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30You know, because, in the City Halls,
0:38:30 > 0:38:32I don't know if you've ever been there,
0:38:32 > 0:38:33but it's no' proper security men.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37It's kind of elderly stewards who wear kind of maroon blazers
0:38:37 > 0:38:39with the City Hall, you know, crest embroidered
0:38:39 > 0:38:43on the...on the pocket of the jacket.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45So they just couldnae cope, and then the Evening Times
0:38:45 > 0:38:47did a story saying there'd been a mini riot.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51I couldn't possibly have people spitting and all that kind of thing,
0:38:51 > 0:38:53as if that was all that it was about.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55MUSIC: Singing In The Showers by Fun 4
0:38:58 > 0:39:03But local bands emerged, spearheaded by Glasgow punk legend Jimmy Loser,
0:39:03 > 0:39:06guitarist of the Fun 4.
0:39:06 > 0:39:07I used to go to a record store six days a week.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10I'd go in there at about 11 o'clock and stay there till five,
0:39:10 > 0:39:12till it shut, to get thrown out.
0:39:12 > 0:39:14And that's how you got to actually form bands.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16The first time I met Alan Horne, he used to hang about
0:39:16 > 0:39:20Bruce's Record Store, not speaking to anyone,
0:39:20 > 0:39:22standing at the side until they actually did tell Alan,
0:39:22 > 0:39:25"Would you mind, actually, leaving the shop?"
0:39:25 > 0:39:27This is Postcard Records.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30MUSIC: Blue Boy by Orange Juice
0:39:30 > 0:39:35And we have here, this is all just fan mail.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42And, erm, this is the accounts,
0:39:42 > 0:39:44and they're not really sorted out, either,
0:39:44 > 0:39:47and the taxman will get us for this.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50# When he spoke, she smiled in all the right places... #
0:39:50 > 0:39:53Alan Horne and his friend Edwyn Collins were setting up
0:39:53 > 0:39:56a West Coast indie label to rival Fast Product,
0:39:56 > 0:39:59planning to launch Edwyn's band Orange Juice onto the world.
0:39:59 > 0:40:03# She wasn't listening to the sweet words... #
0:40:03 > 0:40:07I found Orange Juice's Blue Boy sitting on the record player,
0:40:07 > 0:40:10so I put the needle on it, and then it was kind of...
0:40:10 > 0:40:12It was an epiphany moment.
0:40:12 > 0:40:13You think, "What is this?"
0:40:13 > 0:40:15And from that moment on, you just think,
0:40:15 > 0:40:17"That's the best thing I've ever heard."
0:40:17 > 0:40:22Their idea was that this was a big, shiny pop record label
0:40:22 > 0:40:24and they were going to have pop hits.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28The first time I heard anything about Postcard was
0:40:28 > 0:40:30when a guy stopped me on the street and said,
0:40:30 > 0:40:33"There's this great thing happening in a house in Charing Cross,
0:40:33 > 0:40:35"you know, and they've started a record label."
0:40:35 > 0:40:38And I was like, you know, "What are you talking about?"
0:40:38 > 0:40:41And it was, of course, 185 West Princes Street,
0:40:41 > 0:40:45the famous flat inhabited by the now-legendary Alan Horne.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51I don't really know what to say about Alan
0:40:51 > 0:40:53that isn't too controversial.
0:40:55 > 0:40:56If you speak to anyone from Orange Juice,
0:40:56 > 0:40:59they'd go straight for the jugular with Alan.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02- He was a lovely guy. - INTERVIEWER LAUGHS
0:41:02 > 0:41:05Cheeky, egocentric, naughty...
0:41:05 > 0:41:07Very intelligent.
0:41:07 > 0:41:08Fierce energy.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10Somebody that would make things happen.
0:41:10 > 0:41:11He was very witty.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14So cutting and camp and cynical.
0:41:14 > 0:41:16There was a sort of bullying element, as well,
0:41:16 > 0:41:18which I guess you have to be, to be that persuasive.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21I found him very condescending and dismissive of musicians.
0:41:23 > 0:41:27He famously thought that the managers in punk rock
0:41:27 > 0:41:28were as important as the singers -
0:41:28 > 0:41:31you know, Malcolm McLaren would be interviewed as well as
0:41:31 > 0:41:33the Sex Pistols - almost like artists in themselves,
0:41:33 > 0:41:35and I think that's what he modelled himself as.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39Suddenly, you had this kind of pop Svengali,
0:41:39 > 0:41:42or as near to a pop Svengali as Scotland was ever going to get.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45MUSIC: Falling And Laughing by Orange Juice
0:41:45 > 0:41:48Like Fast, Postcard would also last for only two years,
0:41:48 > 0:41:50and produce a dozen records,
0:41:50 > 0:41:55but would inspire C86, Creation, and a new generation of indie talent,
0:41:55 > 0:41:58and their first single went straight into the charts -
0:41:58 > 0:42:00the indie charts.
0:42:00 > 0:42:06# You must think very naive
0:42:06 > 0:42:09# Taken as true... #
0:42:09 > 0:42:11I think with Falling And Laughing, that was fantastic.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14You know, you couldn't want for more - single of the week,
0:42:14 > 0:42:17and our first single sold out 1,000 copies in no time.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20# Avoid eye contact at all costs
0:42:20 > 0:42:22# What can I do? #
0:42:22 > 0:42:25As soon as you heard Orange Juice, it had a sound,
0:42:25 > 0:42:27because Alan Horne was very much - and it's true -
0:42:27 > 0:42:29a label must have a sound.
0:42:29 > 0:42:34And that sound quickly became known as "the sound of young Scotland".
0:42:34 > 0:42:36The thing that was great about Orange Juice was that
0:42:36 > 0:42:38they were a punk rock band,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40but they sort of said, "Well, OK, we're a punk rock band,
0:42:40 > 0:42:44"but we really want to make records like Chic."
0:42:44 > 0:42:47Punk was kind of resolutely, you know, working-class,
0:42:47 > 0:42:50and there was a lot of people, you know,
0:42:50 > 0:42:54kind of embraced the whole ripped jeans kind of aspect of it.
0:42:54 > 0:42:57So when Edwyn and Alan appeared on the scene,
0:42:57 > 0:43:00they looked like something from The Famous Five.
0:43:00 > 0:43:01# Fall falling
0:43:01 > 0:43:04# Falling and laughing Falling and laughing
0:43:04 > 0:43:08# Falling and laughing... #
0:43:08 > 0:43:13Postcard can be seen as being a very parochial kind of organisation.
0:43:13 > 0:43:14I don't agree that it was.
0:43:14 > 0:43:19It was a humorous way of slapping London people in the face.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21I loved the character, the personality,
0:43:21 > 0:43:23and the fact that it was nothing like anything else,
0:43:23 > 0:43:25that it came out of its own world.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27Everything about it could have only been Postcard,
0:43:27 > 0:43:29and you'd very quickly begin to trust it, which is an
0:43:29 > 0:43:32amazing thing for a label to do, you know, out of nowhere.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35"I want all those records. They're all going to be great. I trust it."
0:43:39 > 0:43:43The sounds of young Scotland were radically different coast to coast.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47The East had taken the brunt of the punk outbreak in 1977,
0:43:47 > 0:43:48and that was mirrored in the music.
0:43:49 > 0:43:51It was almost like America.
0:43:51 > 0:43:53It was East Coast and West Coast,
0:43:53 > 0:43:57and Edinburgh was very definitely the East Coast.
0:43:57 > 0:43:58You were getting the sounds of Pere Ubu,
0:43:58 > 0:44:00you were getting the sounds of Television -
0:44:00 > 0:44:03that abrasive, angular thing.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05Yeah, I don't know what they were into in Glasgow,
0:44:05 > 0:44:09that they were definitely much more sort of melodic
0:44:09 > 0:44:12and nice and sort of middle-class.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15There was one musical influence both sides were agreed on.
0:44:17 > 0:44:19It started with The Velvets, I think.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21- It was the Velvets.- The Velvet Underground.- The Velvet Underground.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23- The Velvet Underground. - Velvet Underground.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25- The Velvet Underground. - The Velvet Underground.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28- The Velvet Underground.- Velvet Underground.- The Velvet Underground.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31You know, I think The Velvet Underground are the most important
0:44:31 > 0:44:35band to every Scottish band that came out
0:44:35 > 0:44:39from 1976 until probably 1986.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42I remember seeing The Velvets' albums in Cockburn Street Market,
0:44:42 > 0:44:46and I remember seeing copies of White Light/White Heat,
0:44:46 > 0:44:49and looking at the cover, and it was black.
0:44:49 > 0:44:54It looked incredibly exotic, and I was too scared to buy it, actually.
0:44:54 > 0:44:55I mean, when I first met Edwyn,
0:44:55 > 0:44:58I think he was carrying the first Subway Sect single
0:44:58 > 0:45:00and a Velvet Underground album.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04They were kind of like his blueprint, you know, for a group.
0:45:04 > 0:45:07MUSIC: Heart Of Song by Josef K
0:45:07 > 0:45:10# There's so many pathways that lead to the heart... #
0:45:13 > 0:45:15It was the cusp of a new decade,
0:45:15 > 0:45:18and one band was preparing to cross the East-West divide.
0:45:20 > 0:45:25Tempted by the poppy sounds of Postcard, Joseph K defected.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29Alan Thorne, you know, asked us to be on Postcard Records.
0:45:29 > 0:45:33He didn't want Postcard Records just to be a vehicle for Orange Juice.
0:45:34 > 0:45:36I think he had an idea that he'd like Postcard to be
0:45:36 > 0:45:38a kind of Motown as well, though.
0:45:38 > 0:45:43He wanted real, classic pop tunes, and big, classic productions,
0:45:43 > 0:45:47so we were certainly an antidote to sort of
0:45:47 > 0:45:49the glossier side of things.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53# Though it's easy to hear the message through song... #
0:45:53 > 0:45:56Alan boldly combined the darkness and light of his two signings
0:45:56 > 0:45:58with the joint release of singles,
0:45:58 > 0:46:02which shot to number 15 in the indie charts,
0:46:02 > 0:46:06and Joseph K got to experience the great Postcard publicity machine
0:46:06 > 0:46:07at first hand.
0:46:07 > 0:46:12Those shared sleeves, we had, like, four seven-inch squares,
0:46:12 > 0:46:14and then they were hand-coloured.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17There was... I think there was only about five of us in this room
0:46:17 > 0:46:19- with felt pens and... - SHE GIGGLES
0:46:19 > 0:46:22..and 1,000 of these things.
0:46:22 > 0:46:24We're going, "We'll get this done in no time."
0:46:24 > 0:46:28Alan liked to think it was kind of like a wee Factory Records scene.
0:46:28 > 0:46:30You know, there was one transvestite that used to go
0:46:30 > 0:46:33and hang about there, and he loved that - Lucy Alexander.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35So anyone who went up to Alan's, you know,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38he would just give them a felt pen and a pile of these, and say,
0:46:38 > 0:46:39"Can you colour in a few of these for me?"
0:46:39 > 0:46:42We ended up getting, like, a whole load of felt pens
0:46:42 > 0:46:45and just doing this across them, because it had taken so long
0:46:45 > 0:46:46and we were getting...
0:46:46 > 0:46:49It started off going, just colouring them really nice.
0:46:51 > 0:46:52We liked being on Postcard Records.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54We liked to be independent.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56No desire to sign to a major label.
0:47:01 > 0:47:05Alan Horne and Bob Last, although not necessarily soul mates,
0:47:05 > 0:47:07shared the same philosophy -
0:47:07 > 0:47:09that you shouldn't have to go to London to make it
0:47:09 > 0:47:11in the pop business.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14What we now know as indie music was invented in Scotland.
0:47:14 > 0:47:18If you think about Postcard and Fast Product,
0:47:18 > 0:47:21you know, that's the seeds of labels like Creation.
0:47:21 > 0:47:25That's really been the template for indie music to this day.
0:47:25 > 0:47:29I was always very proud of doing things from Scotland
0:47:29 > 0:47:31that were UK-wide and international,
0:47:31 > 0:47:33and that, to me, was the point of being in Scotland.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36It wasn't to be narrowly Scottish.
0:47:36 > 0:47:38It was to say, "Hey, Scotland's part of...
0:47:38 > 0:47:41"You know, we stand up there with everybody else."
0:47:41 > 0:47:44There's no reason why we shouldn't operate from Glasgow.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47There's no reason why, if we wanted a major contract,
0:47:47 > 0:47:50then major record companies shouldn't come up here
0:47:50 > 0:47:55and bring the coals to Newcastle and the fish from the fire.
0:47:55 > 0:47:57THEY LAUGH
0:48:00 > 0:48:01It's interesting.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Postcard were reactive to Fast Product more than they knew.
0:48:04 > 0:48:05They were reactive to that.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08They were going, "Well, what can we do that's not them?"
0:48:08 > 0:48:09And so, right from the get-go,
0:48:09 > 0:48:13part of what energised Postcard was not being Fast Product.
0:48:13 > 0:48:17I think both Bob Last and Alan viewed each other very, very warily,
0:48:17 > 0:48:20and circled each other and avoided contact.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22Somebody told me in their recent book about Postcard,
0:48:22 > 0:48:24I evidently sent them death threats.
0:48:24 > 0:48:28I don't remember it being that, erm, tribal.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30So, it was quite adversarial,
0:48:30 > 0:48:35but it was interesting to see this energy was spreading out.
0:48:35 > 0:48:38TRAIN HORN HONKS
0:48:38 > 0:48:42But for one band of postpunk pioneers, London was calling.
0:48:45 > 0:48:46I think it's great.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48The pavements are golden.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50You know, everything's wonderful.
0:48:50 > 0:48:51You know, nothing lasts forever, OK?
0:48:51 > 0:48:53Everything has a lifespan, you know,
0:48:53 > 0:48:58and our creative relationship with Fast had a lifespan, as well,
0:48:58 > 0:48:59and when it was over, we knew it.
0:48:59 > 0:49:03We knew we wanted to move on to something more commercial,
0:49:03 > 0:49:07and we parted with mutual respect.
0:49:07 > 0:49:08Now, from Edinburgh, comes Scars,
0:49:08 > 0:49:11who have just released their first album, Author! Author!.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15MUSIC: All About You by Scars
0:49:15 > 0:49:18# It was a cold day outside today
0:49:18 > 0:49:21# I have nothing to do so I thought about you... #
0:49:21 > 0:49:24They got pretty big, I think. They were on the TV, man.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26Paul Morley got interested in the band.
0:49:26 > 0:49:29I said to him, "Have you seen the review in Sounds? It's fantastic."
0:49:29 > 0:49:32He said, "That's nothing. Wait until you see my review."
0:49:32 > 0:49:35And I just thought, "Oh, my God, this is great."
0:49:35 > 0:49:39Suddenly we were propelled into that arena, you know,
0:49:39 > 0:49:46and getting stopped on Oxford Street or in Soho by girls, giggling.
0:49:46 > 0:49:49They'd send you fan mail and stuff like this,
0:49:49 > 0:49:51so, in that sense, it was good fun.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57They signed to a major and made a critically-acclaimed album,
0:49:57 > 0:49:59but it would prove to be their only one.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01Bigger budgets meant less control.
0:50:02 > 0:50:04I thought it was a shame for the Scars,
0:50:04 > 0:50:06because they had a fantastic album, but then, you know,
0:50:06 > 0:50:10somebody's taking photographs of them dressed up as New Romantics.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13It was just really unfortunate, you know. It was just like, "What?"
0:50:13 > 0:50:16Being on an indie label is different from being on a major label.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18The expectations are different.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21The budgets are bigger, so you've got to sell more records.
0:50:21 > 0:50:22There's more pressure to have a hit.
0:50:22 > 0:50:23It's the same old story.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26You know, we consider it pretentiously as our art -
0:50:26 > 0:50:28they call it product.
0:50:28 > 0:50:29You know?
0:50:30 > 0:50:32We were playing some really good gigs,
0:50:32 > 0:50:35and we just couldn't get that sound to translate in the studio.
0:50:35 > 0:50:41We didn't have the right sympathetic kind of ears that we'd had
0:50:41 > 0:50:43when we recorded Horrowshow and Adult/ery.
0:50:45 > 0:50:47I think being in a band is like...
0:50:47 > 0:50:50I liken it to being married.
0:50:50 > 0:50:52All the good and the bad compressed, you know?
0:50:52 > 0:50:57You're touring with guys, and you know everything about them -
0:50:57 > 0:50:59what you want to know and what you don't want to know -
0:50:59 > 0:51:04and, you know, that's quite a pressure cooker for young guys.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07Robert left the band and we carried on,
0:51:07 > 0:51:09and tried to find another singer.
0:51:09 > 0:51:10It didn't work out.
0:51:10 > 0:51:15The same things that made it work ultimately tore it apart,
0:51:15 > 0:51:16if you get my drift.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28Following the Scars' departure,
0:51:28 > 0:51:32Bob decided that Fast had outlived its purpose.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35He put out two more singles by The Dead Kennedys and Human League,
0:51:35 > 0:51:37and shut the label down.
0:51:37 > 0:51:39If you look at what went on in Fast Product,
0:51:39 > 0:51:43if you think of it as one body of work that collectively, every band,
0:51:43 > 0:51:45everybody who ever walked in the flat,
0:51:45 > 0:51:48collectively made together,
0:51:48 > 0:51:50anyone who beat me up cos I didn't release their single -
0:51:50 > 0:51:52all those people were part of it.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55Somehow or other, I knew it had finished.
0:51:55 > 0:51:59It's too far gone to remember exactly how I knew,
0:51:59 > 0:52:01but it was...it was done.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08But we wanted to go on doing things and trying out new ideas,
0:52:08 > 0:52:13so, rather than muddy the waters of what Fast Product had done,
0:52:13 > 0:52:15I invented a new brand.
0:52:15 > 0:52:18I mean, that all sounds like rather grand rationalisation -
0:52:18 > 0:52:20it might be that I was just bored.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26And so Pop:Aural was born.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28I think he saw in mind some kind of label where, you know,
0:52:28 > 0:52:30all the acts had a certain affinity,
0:52:30 > 0:52:34a youngness, a popness, if you like, you know, aiming at the charts.
0:52:34 > 0:52:36"Well, we always thought this was about pop music -
0:52:36 > 0:52:39"Let's see if we can make some pop music."
0:52:39 > 0:52:42It turned out...
0:52:42 > 0:52:43A, we couldn't,
0:52:43 > 0:52:48and, B, we'd been so corrupted by what we did at Fast Product
0:52:48 > 0:52:51that we thought that Davy Henderson was a pop star.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53MUSIC: Big Gold Dream by Fire Engines
0:52:54 > 0:52:57Alan always wanted to sign the Fire Engines, and I think was
0:52:57 > 0:53:01absolutely galled that Bob Last signed them to Pop:Aural.
0:53:01 > 0:53:05# The plan is my survival
0:53:05 > 0:53:06# I'm tired of this song
0:53:06 > 0:53:09- # I've a bulldozer - Staying alive, staying alive... #
0:53:09 > 0:53:13# The plan is my survival
0:53:13 > 0:53:17# I'm tired of this song I've a bulldozer... #
0:53:17 > 0:53:22I haven't sung that for a while, I can assure you.
0:53:22 > 0:53:26In true Fast tradition, the packaging played fast and loose with
0:53:26 > 0:53:28the concepts of consumerism.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31They said, "Right, we want to be commodified.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33"We're going to be half naked, oiled up,
0:53:33 > 0:53:37"with slabs of meat and boxes of soap powder."
0:53:37 > 0:53:39"Let's go to the abattoir, take our clothes off
0:53:39 > 0:53:43"and, like, hang out and get covered in baby oil."
0:53:44 > 0:53:46Sadly, we couldn't get into the abattoir,
0:53:46 > 0:53:51and we settled on buying about...
0:53:51 > 0:53:5515 quid's worth of steaks from Safeway.
0:53:55 > 0:53:56# I'm tired of this song
0:53:56 > 0:53:59- # I've a bulldozer - Staying alive... #
0:53:59 > 0:54:01When I did this photo session, it was very funny.
0:54:01 > 0:54:05It was in my flat and I had had a break-in the week before.
0:54:05 > 0:54:09I had all these half-naked, oiled-up boys on my sitting-room floor,
0:54:09 > 0:54:13and the doorbell goes, and it was the police about my break-in.
0:54:18 > 0:54:22Bob's roster of potential pop stars included mini supergroup
0:54:22 > 0:54:23Boots For Dancing.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26A slightly punky funk kind of thing.
0:54:26 > 0:54:30The NME were interested in doing a cover feature on us, you know,
0:54:30 > 0:54:32and Dave bottled out.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34Dave decided it wasn't for him. He just...
0:54:34 > 0:54:37He was worried his mates wouldn't talk to him or something,
0:54:37 > 0:54:39or think he'd sold out or something like that.
0:54:39 > 0:54:42It was just like, "Duh!"
0:54:42 > 0:54:44What were you thinking of, Dave?
0:54:44 > 0:54:47I mean, I was just a teenager then, but I didnae play the game.
0:54:47 > 0:54:52But I'm quite proud I didnae play the game, because that's...
0:54:52 > 0:54:54And that's pretty punk, as far as I'm concerned.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57MUSIC: Candyskin by Fire Engines
0:54:57 > 0:54:59Of course, we did Candyskin.
0:54:59 > 0:55:02MAN SINGS ALONG WITH GUITAR RIFF
0:55:02 > 0:55:03# Candyskin Oh, Candyskin... #
0:55:03 > 0:55:07It was Bob that put the strings on Candyskin,
0:55:07 > 0:55:10which was probably... It is the best thing about it for me.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13# Candyskin Oh, Candysuck... #
0:55:13 > 0:55:16We were always interested in looking for sort of
0:55:16 > 0:55:19cracks into the mainstream.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22It was probably the closest we ever got throughout any of that
0:55:22 > 0:55:25time to something that actually was recognisable
0:55:25 > 0:55:26to other people as being pop.
0:55:29 > 0:55:34Candyskin is very catchy, and it did get onto Roundtable, you know,
0:55:34 > 0:55:36the BBC thing.
0:55:36 > 0:55:40Where it was roundly dismissed as the worst-produced record that
0:55:40 > 0:55:42anyone had ever heard.
0:55:42 > 0:55:44And at the end he says, "No, I don't think it's good,
0:55:44 > 0:55:46"cos it sounds out-of-tune at the end."
0:55:46 > 0:55:48And I was going, "Uh-huh.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50"That's our sound. It's, like...
0:55:50 > 0:55:52"It's not out-of-tune - that's how it's meant to sound."
0:55:52 > 0:55:53So, it got the thumbs down.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55# La-la-la-la... #
0:55:55 > 0:55:58I think it was.... Yeah, it was a great bit of outsider pop
0:55:58 > 0:56:00and remains a great bit of outsider pop.
0:56:02 > 0:56:04Despite radical success,
0:56:04 > 0:56:10Bob again decided enough was enough and disbanded the label,
0:56:10 > 0:56:11but not to leave the music business.
0:56:11 > 0:56:15On the contrary, he had his sights set on greater things -
0:56:15 > 0:56:19band management and publishing.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22I've had no ambition to have my own major label.
0:56:22 > 0:56:28I was interested in that action of being the insurgent and I'd done it.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30SIRENS WAIL
0:56:33 > 0:56:37Bobby invited me to go for something to eat
0:56:37 > 0:56:40in the Habitat in the West End,
0:56:40 > 0:56:44and it was kind of New Year's Eve, actually, I think.
0:56:44 > 0:56:48He told me he was starting a publishing company,
0:56:48 > 0:56:53and he wanted me to be one of the acts.
0:56:53 > 0:56:58It was either me or not at all, on my own,
0:56:58 > 0:57:04and I went home and split the band up.
0:57:04 > 0:57:08Russell phoned me, and I think it was New Year's Day, 1982, was it?
0:57:08 > 0:57:10Possibly '83. I think it was '82.
0:57:10 > 0:57:13See? I don't even know when we finished, it's that long ago.
0:57:13 > 0:57:17And said, "That's it, it's finished, Davy's left the band, we're over,"
0:57:17 > 0:57:18and that was that.
0:57:20 > 0:57:24It's one of the biggest regrets of my life,
0:57:24 > 0:57:26of which there are a few.
0:57:27 > 0:57:31The people in the Fire Engines and The Dirty Reds
0:57:31 > 0:57:36are my brothers,
0:57:36 > 0:57:40and I do, I suppose I feel like I let them down.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44MUSIC: Queen City Of The 4th Dimension by The Sexual Objects
0:57:44 > 0:57:48# I got myself a situation
0:57:48 > 0:57:50# Down the Young Man's Christian Association... #
0:57:50 > 0:57:53Postcard, meanwhile, had been expanding the sock drawer.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56Alan signed the magnificent guitar-based Australian
0:57:56 > 0:57:58two-piece The Go-Betweens,
0:57:58 > 0:58:01and when he enlisted East Kilbride's Aztec Camera,
0:58:01 > 0:58:03fronted by boy wonder Roddy Frame,
0:58:03 > 0:58:08it cemented the label's reputation as a force to be reckoned with.
0:58:08 > 0:58:10We got a big three-page spread in Sounds, I believe,
0:58:10 > 0:58:12before we'd released a record.
0:58:12 > 0:58:14The hip press, the so-called hip press, were like...
0:58:14 > 0:58:17They thought... Well, they had, like, Edwyn and then Roddy.
0:58:17 > 0:58:19"There must be loads of this stuff up here."
0:58:19 > 0:58:21It was really exciting, because we'd never had any of that.
0:58:21 > 0:58:24We'd never experienced the music press being interested,
0:58:24 > 0:58:27and there came a time in the early '80s when it seemed that anybody
0:58:27 > 0:58:29who walked down Sauchiehall Street carrying a guitar case,
0:58:29 > 0:58:33you know, an A&R man would jump out with a chequebook and say,
0:58:33 > 0:58:35"Sign here. I'll give you a deal."
0:58:36 > 0:58:39There was a big kind of, almost like a novelty, like,
0:58:39 > 0:58:43to the London music journalists, to getting on the train, you know,
0:58:43 > 0:58:49and actually going five hours and finding this whole scene, you know.
0:58:49 > 0:58:51It was just the place to be.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53You know, you didnae have to go to London any more.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56It was equally, if not even more exciting,
0:58:56 > 0:58:58because it was ours.
0:58:58 > 0:59:00You know, we had it and it was
0:59:00 > 0:59:03a ten-minute cab ride from the house.
0:59:03 > 0:59:06MUSIC: Variation Of Scene by Josef K
0:59:10 > 0:59:13With the press eagerly awaiting more pop pearls from Postcard,
0:59:13 > 0:59:17Alan felt it was time to put out the label's first album.
0:59:17 > 0:59:23It wasn't by Orange Juice, but by NME favourites Josef K.
0:59:23 > 0:59:24Well, I thought Paul Haig was a pop star.
0:59:24 > 0:59:27He looked like a pop star. I liked the enigma, the cryptic quality,
0:59:27 > 0:59:29and the beauty of the voice.
0:59:29 > 0:59:31That was my kind of pop star, you know,
0:59:31 > 0:59:33slightly, I thought, existential, you know.
0:59:33 > 0:59:37He looked like he read Beckett but loved Diana Ross, you know?
0:59:37 > 0:59:39He just seemed the perfect hybrid.
0:59:39 > 0:59:44But the classic pop charm of a 45 didn't translate to 33rpm.
0:59:44 > 0:59:48# These colours, they are rising... #
0:59:48 > 0:59:49When we heard the masters,
0:59:49 > 0:59:52it sounded blanded out, pure and simple.
0:59:52 > 0:59:57It just didn't seem to be the sound of Josef K.
0:59:57 > 1:00:00So Alan started sowing the seeds of doubt about, you know, saying,
1:00:00 > 1:00:03"I don't think it sounds very good. The drums are mixed too loud.
1:00:03 > 1:00:06"If they're not happy with this, we don't have to put this out.
1:00:06 > 1:00:08"I'll talk to Rough Trade."
1:00:08 > 1:00:11Of course, Rough Trade were aghast, cos they'd put up, you know,
1:00:11 > 1:00:13quite a substantial budget for it.
1:00:14 > 1:00:16In relative terms, you know, I think we'd been in the studio
1:00:16 > 1:00:18for five days or something, you know, which...
1:00:18 > 1:00:22So, we didn't put it out, and we went back to the studio in Belgium,
1:00:22 > 1:00:26and recorded the scratchy, difficult-to-listen-to
1:00:26 > 1:00:28The Only Fun In Town album.
1:00:28 > 1:00:32# It took ten years to realise
1:00:32 > 1:00:36# Why the angels start to cry... #
1:00:36 > 1:00:38It got completely slated when it came out.
1:00:38 > 1:00:41I think my feeling about that first Josef K album was, what happened...
1:00:41 > 1:00:43Everything was happening so quick
1:00:43 > 1:00:45and I think it was just the level of disappointment.
1:00:45 > 1:00:47I had in my head this kind of weird vision of Paul Haig
1:00:47 > 1:00:49being on Top Of The Pops three or four times a year,
1:00:49 > 1:00:51how sexy would that be, you know,
1:00:51 > 1:00:55and then suddenly I heard the album and I just had one of those
1:00:55 > 1:01:00bad-tempered moments of, like, "Oh, you've fucking fucked it up."
1:01:00 > 1:01:03# Sorry for laughing... #
1:01:03 > 1:01:05I just remember Paul Morley talking to me about it,
1:01:05 > 1:01:08saying how disappointed he'd been, how things should have moved on,
1:01:08 > 1:01:11and he'd thought we should have sounded like The Police.
1:01:11 > 1:01:13It was almost like, to him, a betrayal, I think -
1:01:13 > 1:01:18like we'd purposely committed commercial suicide or something.
1:01:18 > 1:01:20But I think it was very much our love and affection.
1:01:20 > 1:01:23"Oh, I'm so disappointed. You've let me down, you know?"
1:01:23 > 1:01:25Forgetting that, oddly enough, the ramification of that,
1:01:25 > 1:01:28- that it was, you know... - HE GASPS
1:01:28 > 1:01:30Because I was obviously meant to be the Postcard guy,
1:01:30 > 1:01:32and suddenly the Postcard guy had scrawled all over the Postcard,
1:01:32 > 1:01:35you know, saying, "It's bloody rubbish. What's happened?"
1:01:35 > 1:01:37Not releasing that first Josef K album,
1:01:37 > 1:01:40for building the label and for any kind of commerciality,
1:01:40 > 1:01:44that was a ridiculous decision to make.
1:01:44 > 1:01:45It was art, not commerce.
1:01:50 > 1:01:52But commerce was the name of the '80s game.
1:01:54 > 1:01:56They're probably the most successful British group to combine
1:01:56 > 1:02:00German-style electronics with a fairly commercial form of melody.
1:02:00 > 1:02:02The Human League, play us out...
1:02:02 > 1:02:05MUSIC: Gordon's Gin by The Human League
1:02:05 > 1:02:08Bob Last was now managing The Human League,
1:02:08 > 1:02:10grooming them for pop stardom,
1:02:10 > 1:02:14but his strategy for chart success would have massive implications
1:02:14 > 1:02:16for the band.
1:02:16 > 1:02:18Bob was a very appealing character to us,
1:02:18 > 1:02:22because he had this kind of aura around him that he was like...
1:02:22 > 1:02:23He was like your dad.
1:02:23 > 1:02:29We just liked the way that he approached the business.
1:02:29 > 1:02:34But behind the scenes, I didn't realise Bob was manipulating
1:02:34 > 1:02:37and was in deep discussion with
1:02:37 > 1:02:40the record company about how to split us,
1:02:40 > 1:02:43and take Phil away and make him into a pop star,
1:02:43 > 1:02:45and make loads of money,
1:02:45 > 1:02:48and get two bands for the price of one, essentially.
1:02:48 > 1:02:52The divide-and-conquer game plan worked well.
1:02:52 > 1:02:56The schism produced two bands, Human League mark two and Heaven 17,
1:02:56 > 1:02:59with Bob managing both.
1:02:59 > 1:03:03Martyn Ware, he was kind of sacked from his own band!
1:03:03 > 1:03:05The band that he'd formed, he was sacked from.
1:03:05 > 1:03:08Of course, I was in a state of shock. You can imagine.
1:03:08 > 1:03:10This was the first example of...
1:03:10 > 1:03:13Well, probably the only example in my entire life, thinking about it,
1:03:13 > 1:03:17of proper betrayal - I mean, full-on epic betrayal, you know?
1:03:17 > 1:03:21# Lies the reason Faith or treason
1:03:21 > 1:03:23# Playing a part... #
1:03:23 > 1:03:26Bob then brought in Jo Callis, with his poppy sensibility,
1:03:26 > 1:03:30to navigate the new, improved Human League towards the charts.
1:03:31 > 1:03:34There was all this eclectic interest,
1:03:34 > 1:03:37and, you know, one extreme of it was Abba.
1:03:37 > 1:03:41You know, Phil, a great admirer of Abba and everything very produced
1:03:41 > 1:03:43and very commercial, you know, very pop.
1:03:43 > 1:03:45So I think Bob probably picked on that,
1:03:45 > 1:03:47and picked up on that and thought,
1:03:47 > 1:03:50"Well, you know, let's just have an arty Abba."
1:03:51 > 1:03:56The Human League didn't actually know anything about music,
1:03:56 > 1:04:02and I didn't want someone in there who was going to turn them into
1:04:02 > 1:04:06some sort of progressive musical noodling,
1:04:06 > 1:04:08which was clearly a risk factor,
1:04:08 > 1:04:14and so I thought the idea of Jo bringing his very taut song-making
1:04:14 > 1:04:18and noise attitude to them might be a good idea.
1:04:18 > 1:04:20It turned out to be a very good idea.
1:04:20 > 1:04:22It felt entirely right.
1:04:22 > 1:04:25# Lies the reason Faith or treason
1:04:25 > 1:04:27# Playing a part... #
1:04:32 > 1:04:35A duo from the East Coast were also on the brink of
1:04:35 > 1:04:37cracking the mainstream.
1:04:38 > 1:04:40Rooted in disco and Bowie,
1:04:40 > 1:04:44they were an antidote to the proliferous indie guitar bands.
1:04:44 > 1:04:48# Ooh, ooh-ooh
1:04:48 > 1:04:52# Ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh... #
1:04:52 > 1:04:56- HIGH-PITCHED: - # Ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh... #
1:04:58 > 1:04:59Did we use helium?
1:04:59 > 1:05:02No, not on recording,
1:05:02 > 1:05:04but we did have helium in the studio
1:05:04 > 1:05:06because we just thought it was so fricking funny.
1:05:06 > 1:05:10It was, like, kind of anti-rock, in a way.
1:05:10 > 1:05:14Fantastical pop music that was like some of it came from Bowie,
1:05:14 > 1:05:16some of it came from disco...
1:05:16 > 1:05:18I was already in this band,
1:05:18 > 1:05:21and this band I was in, they liked Genesis and Yes,
1:05:21 > 1:05:23and all things prog.
1:05:23 > 1:05:27But you can tell by the name - Caspian, for fuck's sake.
1:05:27 > 1:05:30But I heard this voice, and it was in Tiffany's in Edinburgh,
1:05:30 > 1:05:33and I said, "I've got to have that voice."
1:05:33 > 1:05:39# Don't make me do what the atheists do... #
1:05:39 > 1:05:42We wrote Party Fears Two in 1977.
1:05:44 > 1:05:47At that time, my parents stayed in Lithgow,
1:05:47 > 1:05:49and we'd go out and get hammered on Saturday night,
1:05:49 > 1:05:52and then wake up on Sunday morning and go down to the piano
1:05:52 > 1:05:55in the front room and...
1:05:55 > 1:05:58That's, you know, that's the piano that Party Fears Two was written on.
1:05:58 > 1:06:00MUSIC: Party Fears Two by The Associates
1:06:02 > 1:06:06# I'll have a shower
1:06:06 > 1:06:09# And then phone my brother up... #
1:06:09 > 1:06:11I came up with the riff,
1:06:11 > 1:06:14and, you know, we looked at each other and we said,
1:06:14 > 1:06:15"That's a hit, isn't it?"
1:06:15 > 1:06:17I said, "Yeah, but not now."
1:06:17 > 1:06:19You know, cos, at that time, it just sounded...
1:06:19 > 1:06:20It was too poppy, you know,
1:06:20 > 1:06:24it wasn't a three-chord trick played at a breakneck speed.
1:06:24 > 1:06:27# Always in wrong... #
1:06:27 > 1:06:31Party Fears Two got to number nine in the charts and was the first
1:06:31 > 1:06:32in a string of hits.
1:06:32 > 1:06:36Now based in London, the band moved from major to major,
1:06:36 > 1:06:39taking a reputation for excess with them.
1:06:39 > 1:06:43Well, Francesco the barman, I once asked him, I said,
1:06:43 > 1:06:47"Who's the most rock-and-roll person you've ever had in this bar?"
1:06:47 > 1:06:52"Without a doubt, Alan Rankine from The Associates."
1:06:52 > 1:06:55He said he was the most mental out of everyone.
1:06:56 > 1:06:59I know that him and Billy always took things to an extreme,
1:06:59 > 1:07:03and that was the part of The Associates that made me like them
1:07:03 > 1:07:04at the time, as well,
1:07:04 > 1:07:07because they managed to take it to an extreme.
1:07:07 > 1:07:10They weren't built just to be conventional pop stars.
1:07:12 > 1:07:15I have never worked with a singer as good as Bill,
1:07:15 > 1:07:19but he didn't want this massive world tour thing,
1:07:19 > 1:07:23and all this pressure to be brought to bear, erm,
1:07:23 > 1:07:26on him and everyone else around him.
1:07:26 > 1:07:28With Billy's unwillingness to tour,
1:07:28 > 1:07:31their career foundered when they refused a lucrative publishing offer
1:07:31 > 1:07:34from States record supremo Seymour Stein.
1:07:35 > 1:07:36He's big-time, you know?
1:07:36 > 1:07:38"I will pay off all the radio stations.
1:07:38 > 1:07:40"I will do the bribes.
1:07:40 > 1:07:44"I will do the girls, the guys, the coke, the dope, whatever,
1:07:44 > 1:07:47"and I will give you guys about 400,000 quid each,
1:07:47 > 1:07:50"just because I can."
1:07:50 > 1:07:53And Bill said, "I dinnae want to do it."
1:07:53 > 1:07:56HE GROANS AND LAUGHS
1:07:56 > 1:07:57You know? Erm, erm...
1:07:57 > 1:07:59And it was just...
1:07:59 > 1:08:03You know, I could see Seymour choking on his quail's eggs.
1:08:03 > 1:08:07Ah, so it was just downhill from then.
1:08:07 > 1:08:10But I'm kind of disappointed that no-one's, you know,
1:08:10 > 1:08:12really fricking grabbed me, like Bill.
1:08:25 > 1:08:28It was becoming increasingly difficult to compete as an indie
1:08:28 > 1:08:30in the glitzy world of '80s pop.
1:08:30 > 1:08:37It seemed, at that time, that all the bands that were involved in
1:08:37 > 1:08:43the independent scene were suddenly discovering...
1:08:44 > 1:08:47..sequins and pop.
1:08:47 > 1:08:49I mean, it was the Big Gold Dream.
1:08:49 > 1:08:52MUSIC: Everybody's Somebody's Fool by The Bluebells
1:08:58 > 1:09:01Cracking the charts was the Big Gold Dream,
1:09:01 > 1:09:04and Alan Horne was convinced he could do this from
1:09:04 > 1:09:06the Warhol-esque Factory he'd created.
1:09:07 > 1:09:11He nurtured a bunch of young bands like Strawberry Switchblade,
1:09:11 > 1:09:14and The Pastels, signed the Jazzateers,
1:09:14 > 1:09:17and had hopes of releasing a Bluebells track.
1:09:17 > 1:09:22# Everybody's somebody's fool... #
1:09:22 > 1:09:24Alan was a big fan of one of our songs,
1:09:24 > 1:09:27Everybody's Somebody's Fool, and he wanted that to be a single,
1:09:27 > 1:09:31and I remember Alan kind of interviewing us, you know,
1:09:31 > 1:09:33like, to see what we were all about,
1:09:33 > 1:09:35and we were in The Bluebells early on,
1:09:35 > 1:09:37and one of the questions was,
1:09:37 > 1:09:41"Which part of Easterhouse are you neds from?"
1:09:41 > 1:09:42How can I put it?
1:09:42 > 1:09:44Alan wasn't a great manager. He was...
1:09:44 > 1:09:45He had lots of really good ideas.
1:09:45 > 1:09:49He could actually make stuff happen with radio stations and the press,
1:09:49 > 1:09:51which was great, he could do that side,
1:09:51 > 1:09:54but as far as the actual creative process was going on, he...
1:09:54 > 1:09:59He was actually fairly un-encouraging and quite dismissive.
1:09:59 > 1:10:01I dinnae know if Alan knew what to do with us.
1:10:01 > 1:10:03We had a lot of good press, and when we released Just Like Gold,
1:10:03 > 1:10:05it delivered, and then we thought,
1:10:05 > 1:10:08"This is wonderful, you know, the next big thing."
1:10:08 > 1:10:10Blah blah blah...
1:10:10 > 1:10:11If we'd have gone at that point,
1:10:11 > 1:10:15we'd maybe have got whatever we wanted,
1:10:15 > 1:10:17but we held back,
1:10:17 > 1:10:18or rather Roddy held back.
1:10:18 > 1:10:21In the end, the biggest label that would
1:10:21 > 1:10:23do anything with us was Rough Trade.
1:10:23 > 1:10:26Unfortunately, this coincided with Alan having a kind of
1:10:26 > 1:10:30loss of confidence about...
1:10:32 > 1:10:35..where the label was going and what was happening with the label,
1:10:35 > 1:10:38cos the plan for Postcard Records was to release an Orange Juice album
1:10:38 > 1:10:40and an Aztec Camera album,
1:10:40 > 1:10:43and if he'd done that, if he'd just ridden it out for a couple of years,
1:10:43 > 1:10:46Postcard Records could have gone on to be one of the successful,
1:10:46 > 1:10:48most successful independent labels.
1:10:48 > 1:10:51MUSIC: Upwards And Onwards by Orange Juice
1:10:52 > 1:10:56But, instead, Postcard began to implode.
1:10:56 > 1:10:59Frustrated with the lack of direction and commercial success,
1:10:59 > 1:11:03both Orange Juice and Aztec Camera took the big gold road south.
1:11:04 > 1:11:08It was a blow for Alan, but at least he still had Josef K,
1:11:08 > 1:11:12who were on the brink of a European tour.
1:11:12 > 1:11:15Josef K, we were playing our gig. I think I phoned Davy,
1:11:15 > 1:11:17just to see what time they were going to be leaving
1:11:17 > 1:11:21with the gear in Edinburgh, and Davey said, "Oh, Paul's saying
1:11:21 > 1:11:23"this is the last gig he's going to do
1:11:23 > 1:11:25"and Josef K's not doing any more gigs after this."
1:11:27 > 1:11:30I'd always thought it would just be like it was in the early days,
1:11:30 > 1:11:32where we were really...us against the world sort of thing.
1:11:34 > 1:11:37I decided that I'd had enough. It was just...
1:11:37 > 1:11:39It was the right time.
1:11:40 > 1:11:41And I was kind of a bit annoyed,
1:11:41 > 1:11:43in that he hadn't even spoken to me about it,
1:11:43 > 1:11:44and I just kind of said to Davy,
1:11:44 > 1:11:47"Oh, well, you know, that's the end of the band, then, eh?"
1:11:50 > 1:11:52MUSIC: It's Kinda Funny by Josef K
1:11:52 > 1:11:55I was walking down to go to the sound check
1:11:55 > 1:11:58and we bumped into Edwyn in the street, so I was saying to him,
1:11:58 > 1:11:59"Oh, the band's splitting up,"
1:11:59 > 1:12:02and Edwyn immediately said, "Why don't you join Orange Juice?"
1:12:02 > 1:12:05And I said, "Well, what about the rest of them? Do you want to check?"
1:12:05 > 1:12:07And he was like that, "No, no, it's OK.
1:12:07 > 1:12:11"I don't need to check with the rest of them. You can join."
1:12:11 > 1:12:14So, that was the five-piece and it was no...
1:12:14 > 1:12:16It was no fun at all.
1:12:16 > 1:12:21Everyone was squabbling all the time, mostly David and Steven,
1:12:21 > 1:12:24and they were meant to be the rhythm section.
1:12:24 > 1:12:29For Alan, the loss of his main stars was the death knell for Postcard.
1:12:29 > 1:12:32After producing only 11 singles and one album,
1:12:32 > 1:12:35he decided it was time to wind up the label.
1:12:39 > 1:12:41Well, I often think, funnily enough, back then,
1:12:41 > 1:12:44the idea of a two-year burst of activity was about...
1:12:44 > 1:12:45the length you wanted, really.
1:12:45 > 1:12:49You know, there was something true to the spirit of pop,
1:12:49 > 1:12:53you know, the idea of pop music happening,
1:12:53 > 1:12:56making a statement and then disintegrating.
1:12:56 > 1:12:58I guess things, kind of the sparkle did go off
1:12:58 > 1:13:00the Scottish music business because that's when it became cool to be
1:13:00 > 1:13:05on a major label, so it became almost the norm for a band to
1:13:05 > 1:13:07get a deal and move to London.
1:13:07 > 1:13:11People were not content to be on Rough Trade any more.
1:13:11 > 1:13:13They wanted to be on the biggest major,
1:13:13 > 1:13:16have the biggest budget and compete in the real charts.
1:13:16 > 1:13:18MUSIC: Don't You Want Me by The Human League
1:13:18 > 1:13:22Bob had wholeheartedly embraced the lucrative '80s music business,
1:13:22 > 1:13:27managing shiny pop giants Heaven 17, ABC and Scritti Politti,
1:13:27 > 1:13:30along with The Human League.
1:13:30 > 1:13:31Now on major label Virgin,
1:13:31 > 1:13:35he steered them to worldwide success with their new album Dare,
1:13:35 > 1:13:38which shot to number one on both sides of the Atlantic,
1:13:38 > 1:13:40producing four singles.
1:13:40 > 1:13:44It was a far cry from the indie days.
1:13:44 > 1:13:49# You were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar
1:13:49 > 1:13:52# When I met you
1:13:52 > 1:13:54# I picked you out... #
1:13:54 > 1:13:59It was almost, like, a complete surprise that it went
1:13:59 > 1:14:01that stratospheric, you know?
1:14:01 > 1:14:04You know, that's not really the band that you thought you were.
1:14:04 > 1:14:06You thought you were a bit more...
1:14:06 > 1:14:09A bit darker and a bit less pop.
1:14:09 > 1:14:13# But don't forget it's me who put you where you are now
1:14:13 > 1:14:16# And I can put you back down too... #
1:14:16 > 1:14:19There were arguments about Don't You Want Me,
1:14:19 > 1:14:20as to whether it should be a single,
1:14:20 > 1:14:24and I very clearly remember hearing the opening bars of it and thinking,
1:14:24 > 1:14:28"This really has... This time, this has got to be the big hit."
1:14:28 > 1:14:30# Don't
1:14:30 > 1:14:32# Don't you want me? #
1:14:32 > 1:14:33Phil Oakey, who was fantastic,
1:14:33 > 1:14:37who could outdo me for being cantankerous and perverse,
1:14:37 > 1:14:41I think picked up on the fact that I knew that was a big hit
1:14:41 > 1:14:45and did his damnedest to persuade everyone it wasn't,
1:14:45 > 1:14:46which I think, in retrospect,
1:14:46 > 1:14:49was just he and I having an arm-wrestle about
1:14:49 > 1:14:53who was the cleverer tactician.
1:14:53 > 1:14:57# Don't you want me, baby?
1:14:57 > 1:14:59# Don't you want me?
1:14:59 > 1:15:00# Oh... #
1:15:00 > 1:15:03Bob's tactics paid off.
1:15:03 > 1:15:06Don't You Want Me got the coveted Christmas number one slot
1:15:06 > 1:15:08and stayed there for five weeks.
1:15:08 > 1:15:11He'd done what he set out to do back in the fast days
1:15:11 > 1:15:13and conquered the mass market.
1:15:14 > 1:15:17In retrospect, my personal view
1:15:17 > 1:15:23is that we would not have split up, had it not been manipulated,
1:15:23 > 1:15:25that we would have gone on to be more successful,
1:15:25 > 1:15:27I just think it was a slow burner.
1:15:27 > 1:15:29However, you can't argue with the fact that Dare
1:15:29 > 1:15:32sold nine million records, or whatever it was.
1:15:32 > 1:15:35Heaven 17 went on to sell millions and millions of records
1:15:35 > 1:15:41I can't really... I can't blame him, you know, I can't dislike him, even.
1:15:41 > 1:15:44I just really think he's a great lad, you know?
1:15:49 > 1:15:52Right, Billy, what we've got here
1:15:52 > 1:15:54is an analogy for pop music in the '80s,
1:15:54 > 1:15:59OK? We have this beautiful food that looks good enough to eat,
1:15:59 > 1:16:02but what is it? Plastic.
1:16:02 > 1:16:06# Happiness is hard to find Likewise with peace of mind
1:16:06 > 1:16:10# Everything is possible... #
1:16:10 > 1:16:13By now, Alan Horne had come to one conclusion.
1:16:13 > 1:16:17Follow the money. In 1984, after two years in limbo,
1:16:17 > 1:16:20he upped sticks and talked London Records into giving him the cash
1:16:20 > 1:16:23to start his own label, Swamplands.
1:16:25 > 1:16:27The story of Swamplands,
1:16:27 > 1:16:30really you can trace it from the logo on Postcard,
1:16:30 > 1:16:32which was a little pussycat.
1:16:32 > 1:16:35On Swamplands, it's become a big cat
1:16:35 > 1:16:37and I think Alan, inevitably, realised
1:16:37 > 1:16:39that he had to grow up a bit
1:16:39 > 1:16:41and get muscle and do a
1:16:41 > 1:16:44deal with the Devil, which in this case was London Records,
1:16:44 > 1:16:47if he was going to get some kind of success.
1:16:47 > 1:16:49So he had this kind of blank canvas
1:16:49 > 1:16:52and for the first time in his life he had a bag of money.
1:16:52 > 1:16:54He had total carte blanche to do what he wanted.
1:16:54 > 1:16:57He was this sort of enfant terrible.
1:17:00 > 1:17:03He surrounded himself with a roster of familiar faces.
1:17:03 > 1:17:08James Kirk's new band, Memphis, James King And The Lone Wolves,
1:17:08 > 1:17:11and torch singer Paul Quinn.
1:17:11 > 1:17:14And he finally achieved his dreams of signing Fire Engines,
1:17:14 > 1:17:17in their new incarnation as a three-piece, Win,
1:17:17 > 1:17:20with multi-instrumentalist Ian Stoddart.
1:17:22 > 1:17:30# What I want is a super popoid groove... #
1:17:30 > 1:17:32We would work out some chords and do whatever.
1:17:32 > 1:17:34We'd be doing a thing, he would go, "Stoddy, man!
1:17:34 > 1:17:36"You're the fucking musician, man!
1:17:36 > 1:17:40"You can fucking do it, man, you're the musician, you're the fucking..."
1:17:40 > 1:17:43# Hey, boy Hey, boy
1:17:43 > 1:17:45# Why don't you... #
1:17:45 > 1:17:47I think Alan put us on a wage,
1:17:47 > 1:17:49and Ian said, "We want 100 quid a week."
1:17:49 > 1:17:51"That's ridiculous!
1:17:51 > 1:17:54"Orange Juice only get 80 quid, that's ridiculous!"
1:17:56 > 1:17:59But he gave us 100 quid a week and we were pretty happy with that.
1:18:03 > 1:18:07The songs were great and the production was very saccharine,
1:18:07 > 1:18:09which was a deliberate ruse
1:18:09 > 1:18:14to try and appeal to mainstream 1980s tastes at the time.
1:18:16 > 1:18:22When ears pricked was when we made a song called You've Got The Power.
1:18:22 > 1:18:25They could not deny in any way whatsoever
1:18:25 > 1:18:31that this was a pop song that could get into the national charts.
1:18:31 > 1:18:36# You've got the power to generate fear... #
1:18:36 > 1:18:39They put us in this big studio in London and then
1:18:39 > 1:18:42what they did is they got me to hit each drum and sample each drum,
1:18:42 > 1:18:44so we'd sample each drum
1:18:44 > 1:18:47and they would take each drum's individual sound
1:18:47 > 1:18:50and put it into the stuff they'd programmed.
1:18:50 > 1:18:52I didn't... You know, looking back then,
1:18:52 > 1:18:54you just think, "Why didn't you just let me play the fucking drums?"
1:18:56 > 1:18:58It was a different, incredibly different world.
1:18:58 > 1:19:02I just never had any experience on how to...
1:19:02 > 1:19:05execute things in that environment
1:19:05 > 1:19:08and so you'd leave a lot of decisions up to the producer
1:19:08 > 1:19:11and you were grateful that he can get any results at all.
1:19:11 > 1:19:14You'd just go to the pub
1:19:14 > 1:19:15or go away and come back
1:19:15 > 1:19:18and you didn't really have to do anything because
1:19:18 > 1:19:23they were just...taking a little floppy disk and...
1:19:23 > 1:19:25making it sound horrendous.
1:19:25 > 1:19:27HE CHUCKLES
1:19:27 > 1:19:31It kind of became this quite exaggerated overblown pop song,
1:19:31 > 1:19:35really, that London Records could not ignore.
1:19:35 > 1:19:38But everybody else in the world did.
1:19:38 > 1:19:41# Revolution... #
1:19:42 > 1:19:45They had a meeting and decided it was my voice
1:19:45 > 1:19:47that wasn't radio-friendly.
1:19:47 > 1:19:50It was my fault in the end for writing the song in the first place
1:19:50 > 1:19:52AND not being able to sing it.
1:19:55 > 1:19:58Unexpectedly, it looked like Win were about to hit the big time,
1:19:58 > 1:20:02when the song was picked up by Scottish brewery McEwans.
1:20:02 > 1:20:06# McEwans is the best Buy the best, buy the best. #
1:20:06 > 1:20:10The song shot to nationwide popularity in their ad campaign.
1:20:10 > 1:20:15The thing with that was we had this massive marketing debacle
1:20:15 > 1:20:16or kind of problem or just,
1:20:16 > 1:20:20you know, what they call a marketing fail!
1:20:22 > 1:20:25It was doing really well and Simple Minds came out
1:20:25 > 1:20:28that same weekend and we'd sold more records than them.
1:20:28 > 1:20:31But they went straight to the top 20.
1:20:31 > 1:20:34It was like, "How come we've not even entered the charts?"
1:20:34 > 1:20:39And they said well, "We've weighted the sales."
1:20:40 > 1:20:44Because the bulk of the sales were from Scotland they were disallowed
1:20:44 > 1:20:45and the song failed to chart.
1:20:50 > 1:20:53London Records just sort of...
1:20:53 > 1:20:55didn't get back to us one day.
1:20:55 > 1:20:57That period was over, they chucked us.
1:20:59 > 1:21:01I don't think London fully understood them.
1:21:01 > 1:21:05It might have been that, once they were in with the big label,
1:21:05 > 1:21:09they needed...a different kind of management
1:21:09 > 1:21:14but I suppose if you were going to work with a major label,
1:21:14 > 1:21:18it required a kind of business strength and resilience
1:21:18 > 1:21:20that they didn't have.
1:21:21 > 1:21:23Alan just disappeared.
1:21:23 > 1:21:26Or he just kind of evaporated.
1:21:27 > 1:21:28As he does.
1:21:34 > 1:21:37But the driving force behind the label was Alan's belief
1:21:37 > 1:21:39that Paul Quinn was a star in the making.
1:21:39 > 1:21:42And that consumed all his attention.
1:21:43 > 1:21:45Well, Paul, I've been working with off and on for years,
1:21:45 > 1:21:48he's always been like... I've always...
1:21:48 > 1:21:52thought he could be very successful and make great records.
1:21:52 > 1:21:54Is he an erratic person to have to work for?
1:21:54 > 1:21:57- Yes!- Is that not a bad thing?
1:21:57 > 1:21:58No!
1:21:59 > 1:22:04- Why?- Cos any creative people are erratic.
1:22:04 > 1:22:06But I think that means
1:22:06 > 1:22:10that something of some worth will come through.
1:22:10 > 1:22:14# If you should choose to wear your heart on your sleeve
1:22:14 > 1:22:16# Well, let me tell you now
1:22:16 > 1:22:20# You'll be ignored
1:22:20 > 1:22:26# Will be... #
1:22:26 > 1:22:31I think the worst thing that happened to both Alan and Paul...
1:22:31 > 1:22:32was meeting.
1:22:33 > 1:22:36I think Alan wrecked Paul's career.
1:22:36 > 1:22:39And I think Paul wrecked Alan's career.
1:22:39 > 1:22:41Alan seemed to devote too much of his time
1:22:41 > 1:22:44wondering what Paul's career was going to be like
1:22:44 > 1:22:46instead of saying, "Let's look at my record label."
1:22:46 > 1:22:47It was Paul, Paul, Paul.
1:22:47 > 1:22:50# Ain't that always the way? #
1:22:50 > 1:22:54With Paul, I can make the records I always wanted to make with Postcard,
1:22:54 > 1:22:56I suppose, and now we've all learned a bit along the way
1:22:56 > 1:22:58and we've got access to things,
1:22:58 > 1:23:01we've got the money, should be nothing stopping us now.
1:23:04 > 1:23:07Paul recorded two singles for Swamplands.
1:23:07 > 1:23:11Despite Alan's perseverance, chart success eluded them.
1:23:12 > 1:23:14Alan always decried on Postcard records
1:23:14 > 1:23:18that we didn't have the money or the...infrastructure
1:23:18 > 1:23:20to have hit records, and then he had that with Swamplands
1:23:20 > 1:23:22and he still didn't have any hit records.
1:23:22 > 1:23:27When he was doing it in this kind of ad hoc, DIY cottage industry basis,
1:23:27 > 1:23:30when they never had two pots to piss in,
1:23:30 > 1:23:32creatively it seemed much stronger but, you know,
1:23:32 > 1:23:34try as he might to keep his distance
1:23:34 > 1:23:38from the big wheels of the London-based record company,
1:23:38 > 1:23:41he inevitably was sucked in a wee bit.
1:23:41 > 1:23:46# But ain't that always the way? #
1:23:46 > 1:23:49But his musical instincts were in the right place.
1:23:49 > 1:23:51Many of the bands he'd nurtured in West Princes Street
1:23:51 > 1:23:53did go on to have top ten success,
1:23:53 > 1:23:56but only after signing to the majors.
1:23:57 > 1:24:02The Big Gold Dream could only be achieved on a big gold budget.
1:24:02 > 1:24:04The thing is, I think Alan Horne
1:24:04 > 1:24:06was a lot cleverer than people give him credit for,
1:24:06 > 1:24:10an entire city full of artists kind of stepped forward
1:24:10 > 1:24:13and moved on in different ways...
1:24:13 > 1:24:16and that's his achievement.
1:24:16 > 1:24:20The fact that he didn't win big-time, well, you know what?
1:24:20 > 1:24:23A lot of people don't win big-time.
1:24:23 > 1:24:24That's no... There's no shame in that.
1:24:24 > 1:24:28He took them on and pretty much got a result.
1:24:28 > 1:24:33# I'll fly away. #
1:24:36 > 1:24:39In 1995, Alan Horne wound up the label
1:24:39 > 1:24:41and retired from the music industry.
1:24:41 > 1:24:44Bob Last, meanwhile, moved into movies.
1:24:45 > 1:24:48But in the space of a few short years,
1:24:48 > 1:24:52they and the bands they'd nurtured had exploded the music scene.
1:24:54 > 1:24:58The dawning of Postcard and Fast was the beginning of the real Scottish
1:24:58 > 1:25:02music scene and then we ran with it after that as Creation.
1:25:02 > 1:25:04It was a great time to be a kid in Scotland,
1:25:04 > 1:25:07you had two incredible labels on your doorstep.
1:25:07 > 1:25:10We were pretty fucking lucky, I think.
1:25:10 > 1:25:14Fast and Postcard never lost the punk aesthetic.
1:25:14 > 1:25:18I'm still making music because of people like Bob.
1:25:18 > 1:25:20They were really truly changing the world
1:25:20 > 1:25:23and they made great records while they were doing it.
1:25:24 > 1:25:27It did cause outrage, but it's about being fast,
1:25:27 > 1:25:29it's about being intense and we're done.
1:25:40 > 1:25:43I miss that moment of standing at the side of the stage
1:25:43 > 1:25:47where a band goes on and plays that opening bar of something
1:25:47 > 1:25:50that you know people are going to go apeshit about.
1:25:50 > 1:25:51That's a rush.
1:25:54 > 1:25:58Yes, it mattered, but it mattered for a moment,
1:25:58 > 1:26:00so when you have that moment, make it matter.
1:26:04 > 1:26:07How does it feel to be an influence?
1:26:08 > 1:26:10I'm... I'm humbled.
1:26:10 > 1:26:14We thought we were making good music and people today still think it is
1:26:14 > 1:26:16and, yeah, it's very gratifying.
1:26:22 > 1:26:24I'm still very proud to have been part
1:26:24 > 1:26:27of one of the most exciting times in Scottish music history.
1:26:36 > 1:26:38Thank God I heard him that night in Tiffany's.
1:26:38 > 1:26:41I'd probably still be playing flipping God knows,
1:26:41 > 1:26:44flipping, bloody Close To The Edge by bloody Yes.
1:26:48 > 1:26:53Somebody wrote, "Dirty Reds, Edinburgh's only true punks."
1:26:53 > 1:26:55And that's good enough for me!
1:27:04 > 1:27:07When I look back on my life, I think I was lucky to be born when I was.
1:27:07 > 1:27:09These new friendships that were forged
1:27:09 > 1:27:14sort of from the age of 17 to, say, 21, 22...
1:27:15 > 1:27:17..you know, they are for life.
1:27:21 > 1:27:24I think there's always going to be a Sound of Young Scotland,
1:27:24 > 1:27:25I think there is one right now.
1:27:25 > 1:27:28The sound of any young country should always be changing.
1:27:28 > 1:27:30And, in a way, ours still is.
1:27:42 > 1:27:47It's always worth pursuing whatever makes you happy.
1:27:47 > 1:27:51I've got to write the movie, you know, I'm waiting.
1:27:51 > 1:27:52There's a movie to write.
1:27:52 > 1:27:54No. But anyway, shall we proceed?