0:00:02 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language
0:00:07 > 0:00:11- January 14th, 1978. The last Sex Pistols gig. - No fun. This is no fun.
0:00:11 > 0:00:17Beset by internal problems, the Sex Pistols broke up.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20For many, the end of punk.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24The universe they created around this mythological Johnny Rotten creature,
0:00:24 > 0:00:27is an impossibility.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30No-one can be that...
0:00:30 > 0:00:36obtusely, permanently, insanely wonderful, could they?
0:00:36 > 0:00:40'Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? Good night.'
0:00:46 > 0:00:50As Britain teetered on the brink of seismic political upheaval,
0:00:50 > 0:00:55the spotlight would shift to a new cast of punk-inspired idealists.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02I suppose the punks were like the early revolutionaries in Russia,
0:01:02 > 0:01:04they did the job of breaking everything down,
0:01:04 > 0:01:09and then in came the next lot, and kind of, expanded it, really, musically.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15What happened after punk was very much a result of what punk did.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18And it didn't sound like punk rock.
0:01:21 > 0:01:22Anything was possible,
0:01:22 > 0:01:28so long as you didn't have a great desire to become rich and famous.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32It's like after the Cold War, it's like the beatnik scene in San Francisco -
0:01:32 > 0:01:35you suddenly felt you could do anything you wanted to do.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38They would take up the challenge left by the Pistols,
0:01:38 > 0:01:43and re-imagine Britain and its rock 'n' roll post-punk.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00If the Sex Pistols had been punk's avant-garde,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03in their wake emerged a second wave
0:02:03 > 0:02:06who took the spirit of punk and made it base.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10By 1978, punk was becoming a parody of yobbish manners
0:02:10 > 0:02:13and three-chord thrash.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17It had got quite ugly and tawdry and dark and desperate.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19How many fucking tunes can go...
0:02:22 > 0:02:25You know what I mean? How many times, yeah?
0:02:25 > 0:02:27I mean, the truth is that a lot of hardcore punks
0:02:27 > 0:02:30actually ended up begging outside Tube stations
0:02:30 > 0:02:34with a dog on a piece of string. You know, it was such a nihilistic,
0:02:34 > 0:02:38self-destructive thing in a lot of ways.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40I mean, Sid Vicious, kind of, committed suicide
0:02:40 > 0:02:43and took his girlfriend with him for our entertainment, you know?
0:02:43 > 0:02:47And it was, kind of, getting very, very negative and self-destructive.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Punk may have painted itself into a corner,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53but its spirit would inspire a new generation
0:02:53 > 0:02:55of underground musicians across the country.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59These post-punks would throw the musical rulebook out of the window,
0:02:59 > 0:03:03hell-bent on questioning the nature of society,
0:03:03 > 0:03:06capitalism and rock 'n' roll itself.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16The post-punk era would be kicked off
0:03:16 > 0:03:18by one of punk's founding fathers.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20After leaving The Buzzcocks,
0:03:20 > 0:03:24Howard Devoto would look to the future and start again.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29I stuck up a sign in the Virgin record shop in Manchester
0:03:29 > 0:03:32looking for other band members.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36It certainly said something about playing fast and slow music,
0:03:36 > 0:03:40because, of course, punk had been a very disciplined thing
0:03:40 > 0:03:46where people kind of only did music in one general direction.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51There was an advert up saying Howard Devoto is looking for musicians
0:03:51 > 0:03:53and I remember at the time thinking,
0:03:53 > 0:03:55"Wow, maybe I should apply for that."
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Formed in the white heat of punk in '77,
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Manchester-based Magazine set out to deconstruct the rules of punk rock.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15Magazine was more developed,
0:04:15 > 0:04:20more clever musically than most of punk.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24The songs were tightly arranged. They were well edited.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31That was something from punk.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33# Time flies
0:04:34 > 0:04:37# Time pours
0:04:37 > 0:04:39# Like an insect
0:04:41 > 0:04:44# Up and down the walls
0:04:44 > 0:04:48# The light pours out of me. #
0:04:48 > 0:04:51We were offered Top Of The Pops
0:04:51 > 0:04:54and I turned it down.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00And that was the first time I saw Virgin Records,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03our record company, go, "Argh!"
0:05:03 > 0:05:06One of the year's most talked-about new bands is this one -
0:05:06 > 0:05:10they're called Magazine and here's their debut single, Shot By Both Sides.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Despite Devoto's misgivings,
0:05:12 > 0:05:17Magazine became the first post-punk band on Top Of The Pops.
0:05:17 > 0:05:24Punk finished, really, with the Pistols when they split up in January 1978,
0:05:24 > 0:05:29and a week or two later, Shot By Both Sides came out.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32# This and that They must be the same
0:05:32 > 0:05:35# What is legal Is just what's real
0:05:35 > 0:05:38# What I'm given to understand
0:05:38 > 0:05:41# Is exactly what I steal. #
0:05:41 > 0:05:45I'm afraid Top Of The Pops was a little bit of an anathema, you know?
0:05:47 > 0:05:49# I was shocked to find What was allowed
0:05:49 > 0:05:52# I didn't lose myself In the crowd. #
0:05:52 > 0:05:55You know, most people mimed - it was fakery,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58and I had my problems with things like that.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01# Shot by both sides. #
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Magazine were first to market,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07but their commercial success caught them off guard.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09Well, you know, the record was popular,
0:06:09 > 0:06:14so, I guess there's a thing that happens where it charts,
0:06:14 > 0:06:19and you go on Top Of The Pops, and given your performance, it goes up the charts.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23I think our record was the first for a long time that actually went down.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26I never really thought about commercial success.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29# They'll have to rewrite All the books again
0:06:29 > 0:06:32# As a matter of course
0:06:32 > 0:06:35# I wormed my way Into the heart of the crowd. #
0:06:35 > 0:06:40And yet there was some unformed ambition.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42Well, we weren't really about entertainment.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46We were about this thing of expression
0:06:46 > 0:06:48and getting out our stuff,
0:06:48 > 0:06:53and that's what everybody seemed to be doing within this unit
0:06:53 > 0:06:57and under this umbrella.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01Post-punk was characterised by refuseniks and malcontents
0:07:01 > 0:07:03who shunned the bright lights of the big time.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07One of its most fitting bastions was Manchester,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10a city traditionally suspicious of metropolitan glamour.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13# Entrances uncovered
0:07:15 > 0:07:18# The street signs you never saw... #
0:07:18 > 0:07:20It was nice, actually.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23I used to like Manchester, cos you couldn't see a thing.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26I mean, it was like...
0:07:26 > 0:07:28With the smog and everything, you couldn't see anything.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31# Street signs you never saw
0:07:32 > 0:07:35# All entrances delivered... #
0:07:35 > 0:07:39It was like gangster films about New York, you know. You see...
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Film noir, sort of thing, you know?
0:07:43 > 0:07:45# Entrances uncovered... #
0:07:47 > 0:07:50People would literally come out of the fog at you.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54So it was all very mysterious.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56# You got Manny in the library
0:07:58 > 0:08:02# Working off his hangover 3.30 Get the spleen... #
0:08:02 > 0:08:05Once they got all the pollution laws passed,
0:08:05 > 0:08:09you saw Manchester, it was like, "What a horrible place!"
0:08:13 > 0:08:16Manchester saw a flowering of truculent bands.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18But not a scene.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23The subconscious effect that Manchester had on you
0:08:23 > 0:08:27and your personality, your thoughts, your actions,
0:08:27 > 0:08:31it came through in the music. It was a pretty grim place.
0:08:31 > 0:08:37And you felt - I don't know - dark, I suppose.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Joy Division had originally formed as a punk bank in 1976,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47after witnessing the Sex Pistols at the Lesser Free Trade Hall.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52Once I saw Johnny Rotten, I realised that the only thing
0:08:52 > 0:08:54I wanted to do in the world was tell everyone to fuck off.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01It was literally the next day I went out and bought a bass guitar,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04Bernard had a guitar and we started our punk band.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08As our playing capabilities got better,
0:09:08 > 0:09:11we started writing better and better songs
0:09:11 > 0:09:13and that happened quite quickly.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15# To the centre of the city
0:09:15 > 0:09:18# Where our roads meet Waiting for you. #
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Literally within the space of six months,
0:09:21 > 0:09:25we'd turned from Warsaw, a dodgy punk band, to Joy Division.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32# Booming through the silence Without motion waiting for you
0:09:33 > 0:09:40# In a room with no window In the corner, I found truth. #
0:09:40 > 0:09:42In a time of three-chord thrash,
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Joy Division interpreted punk's DIY ethos
0:09:45 > 0:09:47as permission to be different
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Determined only to be truthful, they combined a brooding sound
0:09:51 > 0:09:55with the existential lyrics of Ian Curtis.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59Joy Division.
0:09:59 > 0:10:05They took the anger of punk, the rage of punk,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07but that was all externalised stuff.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12What was interesting about Joy Division
0:10:12 > 0:10:14was the rage was internalised.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17# In the shadow play Acting out your own
0:10:17 > 0:10:20# But knowing no more
0:10:21 > 0:10:24# As the assassins All grouped in four lines
0:10:24 > 0:10:26# Dancing on the floor
0:10:27 > 0:10:31# And with cold steel Odour on their bodies. #
0:10:32 > 0:10:37In 1978, post-punk was no communal scene of kindred spirits.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39Rather the opposite.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43Then you kind of had a slight frostiness with everybody.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45You know, I can remember - empty landscape,
0:10:45 > 0:10:47bump into somebody from another band,
0:10:47 > 0:10:51"Are you all right?" "Yeah. Are you all right?" "Yeah." That was it.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Bands are very competitive,
0:10:56 > 0:10:57and there's always a great rivalry,
0:10:57 > 0:11:01and there was always a great rivalry between us and The Fall.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05I've never paid much attention to our competition
0:11:05 > 0:11:09or anything like that, other groups.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13I'm a big Fall fan, believe it or not. HE LAUGHS
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Like Joy Division, Mark E Smith had witnessed the Sex Pistols
0:11:17 > 0:11:20at the Lesser Free Trade Hall in 1976,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23and set out on his own path with The Fall.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25- # Totally wired - Totally wired
0:11:25 > 0:11:27# Totally biased... #
0:11:29 > 0:11:31The Pistols, when they started out,
0:11:31 > 0:11:34I think they were quite garage, really.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38But in the space of a couple of singles,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41it went almost heavy metal, didn't it?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44# When the going gets weird
0:11:44 > 0:11:46# The weird turn pro
0:11:46 > 0:11:50# So I'm totally wired
0:11:50 > 0:11:53# T-t-t-totally wired
0:11:53 > 0:11:56- # I'm totally wired - Can't you see?
0:11:56 > 0:11:59# T-t-t-totally wired now. #
0:12:02 > 0:12:04Taking the band's name from a novel by Camus,
0:12:04 > 0:12:08there was no mistaking Mark E Smith's existential street poetry
0:12:08 > 0:12:11for the initial agitprop of punk.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18The more you didn't dress like them, the more you got spat at.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25# My heart and I agree... #
0:12:25 > 0:12:29We would get attacked for having long hair and all sorts.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31You got attacked for having long hair?
0:12:31 > 0:12:34Yeah, cos, you know, if they saw you and you forgot to cut your hair,
0:12:34 > 0:12:37you know what I mean... Used to come off stage all green.
0:12:39 > 0:12:41Back in metropolitan London,
0:12:41 > 0:12:45the big question on every interviewer's lips in 1978 was,
0:12:45 > 0:12:49what was Johnny going to do next?
0:12:49 > 0:12:56The Pistols broke up in a really unclarified and corrupting way,
0:12:56 > 0:12:58due to mismanagement, really, more than anything.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00and it left me completely frustrated
0:13:00 > 0:13:04and I wanted to do something, cos I wanted to continue with music,
0:13:04 > 0:13:10so I, kind of, pooled the friends I had around me, and formed PiL.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22The record company, Virgin, weren't too interested in a new band.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26They were really, kind of, very angry with me
0:13:26 > 0:13:30for daring to suggest complete unknowns to them,
0:13:30 > 0:13:32but I had to remind them that, you know,
0:13:32 > 0:13:35up until two years before that, I was a complete unknown.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41John was up to do something radical.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43I was known for playing a little bit of bass,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46I'm not quite sure how people knew, that, but I love bass -
0:13:46 > 0:13:50I was synonymous with playing bass, I was at one with playing bass.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53There's only other thing, which was clay pigeon shooting,
0:13:53 > 0:13:57which I took up once and was very, very good at from the word go,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01and got afraid because it might displace playing bass.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06I love cacophony, I mean, I loved the Captain Beefheart approach to music.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09You know, fill a room full of amateurs and let's see what happens.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11Fantastic.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15Who could have known that there would be no more Sex Pistols?
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Next thing I knew, John's saying, "Let's do it,"
0:14:18 > 0:14:21and I knew Wobble, and they said, "We want to use Wobble,"
0:14:21 > 0:14:25and I said, "Great," and it was on.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38Released on October 13th, 1978,
0:14:38 > 0:14:44Public Image marked the moment Johnny Rotten stepped out of costume
0:14:44 > 0:14:46to reveal John, the visionary.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50# You never listened To a word that I said
0:14:50 > 0:14:53# You only see me For the clothes that I wear
0:14:53 > 0:14:57# Or did the interest Go so much deeper
0:14:57 > 0:15:00# It must have been The colour of my hair
0:15:00 > 0:15:03# The public image. #
0:15:03 > 0:15:07You know, everybody was waiting for Rotten's new record, after leaving the Pistols,
0:15:07 > 0:15:11what was it going to be like? When he came back with the single Public Image Ltd,
0:15:11 > 0:15:13it was just like...
0:15:13 > 0:15:15# What you wanted Was never made clear
0:15:15 > 0:15:18# Behind the image Was ignorance and fear. #
0:15:18 > 0:15:26Levene's...smacked-out, Byrds, arpeggio guitar...
0:15:26 > 0:15:29# Public image... #
0:15:31 > 0:15:33But more than that, right, it was rock music,
0:15:33 > 0:15:36but it wasn't rock music like the Pistols or The Clash,
0:15:36 > 0:15:40it wasn't traditional like that, it was like a departure.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43It was like a way into the future.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46# I'm not the same as when I began
0:15:46 > 0:15:50# I will not be Treated as property
0:15:51 > 0:15:57# Public image. #
0:15:57 > 0:16:00Public Image Ltd, very warm welcome to Check It Out.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03Where did you get the name Public Image Ltd from?
0:16:03 > 0:16:06Most people who would interview me had a negative attitude towards me
0:16:06 > 0:16:10and so it was... Again, it was another battle I had to take on
0:16:10 > 0:16:12in order to get my point across.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16I don't have to explain myself to anybody, and I ain't going to bother.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Now, I was asked here, right, to interview with the band here, PiL,
0:16:20 > 0:16:26but now we're facing a cheapskate, comedy interrogation act
0:16:26 > 0:16:27and it just ain't on, pal.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30It was relentlessly tedious to be presumed to be
0:16:30 > 0:16:34a thick, ignorant oik, over and over again.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37Well, it sounds like we've heard this story before.
0:16:37 > 0:16:42- Really, would you like to tell me where? Good night.- Good night.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44They didn't want an explanation of the songs.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47They didn't want to know that this was an ongoing force
0:16:47 > 0:16:52and something to be reckoned with and all coming from a really nice person!
0:16:52 > 0:17:00- Cop out.- Cop out.- BEEP.
0:17:02 > 0:17:06Well, I'm pleased I didn't pick the short straw for THAT interview.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10If post-punk was characterised by darkness and paranoia,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Britain in '78 was the perfect backdrop.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17As the fag-end of Callaghan's socialist Government played out,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19the trade unions went into overdrive,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21creating a "Winter of Discontent".
0:17:21 > 0:17:25Well, I think capitalism was collapsing rather than fading,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27and then was going to be shored up when Thatcher got in.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34You know, the climate at the time was pretty desperate.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37People were on three-day weeks, no rubbish collections.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40# How many dead or alive? #
0:17:40 > 0:17:45England was a very, very miserable, burnt-out oil rig, basically.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47# How many dead or alive? #
0:17:47 > 0:17:50There was an American photographer came over,
0:17:50 > 0:17:53and we did a promo shoot with him in Leicester Square,
0:17:53 > 0:17:58when Leicester Square was, I don't know, eight bin bags deep.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02It was just like walls of bin bags,
0:18:02 > 0:18:06it was like a rainy, grey day in London,
0:18:06 > 0:18:11with starling shit all over these black bin bags.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I think it stinks, like all the other damn strikes in this country,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20run by the filthy, socialist, communist unions.
0:18:20 > 0:18:21It is not an exaggeration to say
0:18:21 > 0:18:24the country was on the verge of civil war.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27In fact, the most paranoid voices at that time
0:18:27 > 0:18:32believed that the Government was planning to bring in martial law.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40There was a certainly a cabal within the army and the establishment to do that.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43I think there was an armed wing of the Tory Party
0:18:43 > 0:18:46that were trying to organise a coup at the time of the Labour Government.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50There's a book called A Very British Coup, and there's a film about it.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58As Lady Di said, there's dark forces at heart in British politics.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11One of my favourite films from that era
0:19:11 > 0:19:14is called Radio On, by Chris Petit.
0:19:14 > 0:19:20It's filmed in black and white. It could be, like, the '50s almost.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24Everything seemed very grey and very pessimistic.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29What was great about that film, of course,
0:19:29 > 0:19:31was the soundtrack was Radioactivity by Kraftwerk
0:19:31 > 0:19:33which really threw the whole thing
0:19:33 > 0:19:35into a completely different, weird spin.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40One of the key ingredients of post-punk
0:19:40 > 0:19:45would be the fearless assimilation of a kaleidoscope of musical styles.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47Punk had championed DIY,
0:19:47 > 0:19:50and post-punk made it the sound of the future.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55# Radioactivity... #
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Well, I think punks hated synthesisers generally,
0:20:01 > 0:20:03from a, kind of, ideological point of view,
0:20:03 > 0:20:06because if you looked at the uses of synthesisers in those days,
0:20:06 > 0:20:12it was in prog rock bands to play very fast, pseudo-classical riffs.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16You know, to me, the synthesiser felt like a punk instrument,
0:20:16 > 0:20:19because it was much easier to play than a guitar,
0:20:19 > 0:20:23and you just had to twiddle a few knobs, play one note.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26You get a half-decent sound and a half-decent idea and you had a song.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38Now, if you listen to people like Human League,
0:20:38 > 0:20:41or anybody who were completely disillusioned
0:20:41 > 0:20:45with the music of the time, felt the synthesiser
0:20:45 > 0:20:47was a logical place to go next.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53The Human League were so far removed in look and sound,
0:20:53 > 0:20:55that even the king of punk himself
0:20:55 > 0:20:58had trouble spotting kindred spirits.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03# Faced with the choice
0:21:03 > 0:21:07# What would you say
0:21:07 > 0:21:10# The path of least resistance
0:21:10 > 0:21:13# It seems the only way. #
0:21:13 > 0:21:18When Being Boiled came out, John Lydon was doing the reviews at NME,
0:21:18 > 0:21:23which at that time was like the emperor going...yeah?
0:21:24 > 0:21:28And he's gone into all these reviews and said, "Oh, it's bloody rubbish,"
0:21:28 > 0:21:32and it comes round to Being Boiled, and he just said, "Bloody hippies."
0:21:32 > 0:21:37Two words. I'm going, "Are you sure, John?"
0:21:37 > 0:21:40Because essentially, this is the difference
0:21:40 > 0:21:44between the London scene, as it is a was at the time,
0:21:44 > 0:21:46to them, they were still in this thing like,
0:21:46 > 0:21:48"If I have a quiff, I'm cool."
0:21:48 > 0:21:49After that...
0:21:51 > 0:21:56..initial classic British punk rock phase
0:21:56 > 0:22:01things went all over the place, and things weren't homogeneous -
0:22:01 > 0:22:03very far from it.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09In 1979, the future of music was up for grabs
0:22:09 > 0:22:12amongst the factions of post-punk.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17# Ah
0:22:17 > 0:22:19# A-a-a-ow
0:22:22 > 0:22:24# Ah
0:22:24 > 0:22:26# A-a-a-ow
0:22:27 > 0:22:32The term "post-punk" is, I always thought, quite interesting,
0:22:32 > 0:22:36and it is literally true that what we did was after punk.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38# In my arms
0:22:38 > 0:22:39# We shall begin
0:22:39 > 0:22:42# With none of the rocks There's no charge. #
0:22:42 > 0:22:46I think there was something else going on, in a sense,
0:22:46 > 0:22:50that people were trying out, I suppose, proto-mash-ups.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54We thought we were a mixture of a funk band and a rock band,
0:22:54 > 0:22:56somehow or other.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Post-punk will do, won't it?
0:23:00 > 0:23:02I think I prefer it to punk funk.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07I think there was that sense that anything was possible,
0:23:07 > 0:23:12so long as you didn't have a great desire to become rich and famous.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16The dilemma between integrity and entertainment
0:23:16 > 0:23:19was caught perfectly in 1979,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22when Gang Of Four were offered a spot on Top Of The Pops
0:23:22 > 0:23:26to perform their expose of consumerism, At Home He's A Tourist.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30We were doing rehearsals for the show,
0:23:30 > 0:23:34and they picked up on the word "rubbers", cos it's in the song -
0:23:34 > 0:23:38it's "the rubbers you hide in your top-left pocket".
0:23:38 > 0:23:41They said, "You can't use the word 'rubbers'," and we said, "Why not?"
0:23:41 > 0:23:43And they said, "Because this is a family show
0:23:43 > 0:23:46"and we don't want that disgusting word used on our family show."
0:23:46 > 0:23:50# And the rubbers you hide
0:23:50 > 0:23:52# In your top-left pocket. #
0:23:52 > 0:23:55We had a long chat about this, whether censorship
0:23:55 > 0:23:58was something that we were prepared to embrace.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00So we changed the word "rubbers" to "packets".
0:24:00 > 0:24:04"The packets you hide in your top-left pocket". And the producer said,
0:24:04 > 0:24:08"You've changed the word to packets," and we said, "Yes."
0:24:08 > 0:24:11He said, "Yes, but it's still got the same meaning, hasn't it?
0:24:11 > 0:24:14"So what we'd like you to do, we'd like you to re-record it
0:24:14 > 0:24:16"with the word "rubbish" instead."
0:24:16 > 0:24:20I told him in quite short, pithy words,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23that I didn't think that was a very good idea, and we walked off the show.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28We gained nothing by standing our ground.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Except to prove that we could be really bloody minded.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35# We are the sultans
0:24:35 > 0:24:39# We are the sultans of swing. #
0:24:39 > 0:24:44To my eternal shame, Dire Straits, whose single, Sultans Of Swing,
0:24:44 > 0:24:47had been in the same place in the charts for two weeks running
0:24:47 > 0:24:50and was likely to go out of the charts, were invited in at the last minute,
0:24:50 > 0:24:54having already re-recorded their track, to come on Top Of The Pops,
0:24:54 > 0:24:57and that's why their single went up the charts and became a hit.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00'The much-criticised Radio 1 playlist committee.'
0:25:06 > 0:25:08- John Cooper Clarke. - That's weird.- It is a weirdy.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10Cooper Clarke?
0:25:10 > 0:25:13John Cooper Clarke.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16It came out and then they took it back for remixing.
0:25:16 > 0:25:17Boring.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21Boring. It doesn't mean much.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26Same tempo as the last one. Exactly the same tempo.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28The conceptual nature of post-punk
0:25:28 > 0:25:31is no easy shoe-in for radio playlists.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34Two minutes 30, fades, yes!
0:25:37 > 0:25:40British radio was really not open to what we were doing.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43We were not considered a radio-friendly band.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47# I remark. #
0:25:47 > 0:25:51We had definitely arrived by 1979 as far as the press was concerned,
0:25:51 > 0:25:55but we had no radio. There was very little radio play, outside of John Peel.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57# Like a heartbeat
0:25:57 > 0:25:59# Like a heartbeat
0:25:59 > 0:26:01# Like a heartbeat
0:26:01 > 0:26:03# Like a heartbeat
0:26:03 > 0:26:05# Like a heartbeat. #
0:26:05 > 0:26:08Off air, there was one medium,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11which lent itself perfectly to the new music.
0:26:12 > 0:26:17I mean, that was the time when a lot of people bought the NME,
0:26:17 > 0:26:22and a lot of people bought it because there were really interesting conversations going on.
0:26:22 > 0:26:28I mean, you had NME and Sounds, and, latterly, the Melody Maker,
0:26:28 > 0:26:30that were very big supporters of us. I mean, we got...
0:26:30 > 0:26:34There was another one, as well, wasn't there? Record Mirror?
0:26:34 > 0:26:36Record Mirror. They didn't love us so much.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39There was a fascinating - or what seemed to us fascinating -
0:26:39 > 0:26:44debate going on about what it was all about.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50To categorise post-punk as being purely outside the mainstream
0:26:50 > 0:26:52was not the full picture.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55There were musicians who launched stellar careers
0:26:55 > 0:26:58on a new wave of punk-inspired pop.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59# I don't want to... #
0:26:59 > 0:27:03You know, there's The Fall, and there's New Wave.
0:27:03 > 0:27:05# ..go to Chelsea. #
0:27:05 > 0:27:07I think it was very appropriate, actually.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09Elvis Costello and all that crap.
0:27:16 > 0:27:22New Wave, no, no. You daft h'apporths.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24It's really getting it wrong.
0:27:25 > 0:27:30It was an instant record company movement to try and turn punk
0:27:30 > 0:27:34into just a fad and here's the new fad.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37# Message in a bottle... #
0:27:37 > 0:27:40People like Sting were all part of that. They definitely were.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43# Message in a bottle... #
0:27:43 > 0:27:47He's very far removed from the Buddhist he pretends to be,
0:27:47 > 0:27:49when there's a dollar in it.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54This is Public Image Ltd, and Death Disco.
0:27:55 > 0:27:59While the Police were happy to court fame, Johnny still didn't care.
0:28:00 > 0:28:05On July 12th, 1979, PiL appeared live on Top Of The Pops
0:28:05 > 0:28:10performing a fusion of dub, disco and Tchaikovsky,
0:28:10 > 0:28:14with lyrics about the recent death of Lydon's mother.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17# Words can never can say the way
0:28:17 > 0:28:22# You told me in your eyes. #
0:28:22 > 0:28:24Death Disco was on Top Of The Pops,
0:28:24 > 0:28:26that is subversive
0:28:26 > 0:28:30because it was being beamed into millions of people's living rooms.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34# Never no more hope away
0:28:34 > 0:28:38# Final in a fade. #
0:28:40 > 0:28:42It's actually not subversive,
0:28:42 > 0:28:45because I see the shit-stem as being morally bankrupt,
0:28:45 > 0:28:50and anyway around, out or through is actually to the benefit of mankind,
0:28:50 > 0:28:54so...it's inverted subversiveness.
0:28:54 > 0:28:59Is there such a concept? There probably is.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06# Never really know
0:29:08 > 0:29:12# 'Til it's gone away... #
0:29:13 > 0:29:15I mean, who wouldn't go on Top Of The Pops, yeah?
0:29:15 > 0:29:18I mean, there's no point saying, "I'm not going on Top Of The Pops,
0:29:18 > 0:29:20"cos we're so punk and different."
0:29:20 > 0:29:22It wasn't like that, it was like, "Wow, this is great."
0:29:22 > 0:29:26All I cared about when we did Death Disco on Top Of The Pops,
0:29:26 > 0:29:30was getting to the make-up department and getting my teeth blacked out.
0:29:33 > 0:29:39Death Disco featured on Second Edition, "the" post-punk album.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41It was presented in a metal box,
0:29:41 > 0:29:45like a time capsule for a bygone era.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52To me, that record sounds...
0:29:52 > 0:29:56It's pure art because it sounds like Britain
0:29:56 > 0:29:58felt like to live in back in 1979.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01It's dank record.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05It's dark, it's damp
0:30:05 > 0:30:08and it's slightly depressed.
0:30:17 > 0:30:23# Drive to the forest in a Japanese car
0:30:23 > 0:30:27# The smell of rubber on country tar... #
0:30:27 > 0:30:29It just feels like Britain, you know.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32It's kind of like a greyness and a kind of...
0:30:32 > 0:30:35Not rain but after the rain.
0:30:35 > 0:30:40# ..the cassette played
0:30:42 > 0:30:45# Poptones... #
0:30:45 > 0:30:49I paint pictures with words and sounds.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52And I want those pictures to be as accurate as possible
0:30:52 > 0:30:55and to tell a complete true story,
0:30:55 > 0:31:02and it's all part of the progression of earth, life, death, all of it.
0:31:02 > 0:31:06# You left a hole in the back of my head
0:31:06 > 0:31:09# I don't like hiding in this foliage and peat
0:31:09 > 0:31:14# It's wet and I'm losing my body heat
0:31:14 > 0:31:17# The cassette played
0:31:19 > 0:31:23# Poptones. #
0:31:25 > 0:31:28The Metal Box record was, I think,
0:31:28 > 0:31:32one of the albums that changed things for a lot of people.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39You know, rather than the restricted sort of chord thrash,
0:31:39 > 0:31:44there was, like, soundscapes, and Wobble doing this other thing altogether,
0:31:44 > 0:31:48which no-one had sort of heard outside of reggae, really.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51HE PLAYS THE BASS RIFF TO "POPTONES"
0:31:56 > 0:31:59MUSIC: "Poptones" by PiL
0:32:09 > 0:32:15Poptones musically and lyrically deconstructed all notions of rock.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19The tribes of post-punk were challenging the retro orthodoxy
0:32:19 > 0:32:21that punk rock had become.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29The interesting thing is that bands like the Pistols and The Clash
0:32:29 > 0:32:32were seen as so experimental and so different,
0:32:32 > 0:32:35but actually they were rock 'n' roll bands.
0:32:35 > 0:32:37They acted and dressed like rock stars, really,
0:32:37 > 0:32:39and had the whole pose on stage.
0:32:39 > 0:32:42Whereas I think The Slits were utterly different.
0:32:42 > 0:32:47We challenged all that. We made sure we even stood differently.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50We didn't fall into all the sort of, I don't know,
0:32:50 > 0:32:51the cliches of rock 'n' roll.
0:32:54 > 0:32:59In 1979, The Slits' fusion of punk and reggae was a soundtrack for a new Britain.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03MUSIC: "Newtown" by The Slits
0:33:08 > 0:33:10It's talking about the new towns
0:33:10 > 0:33:13appearing all over England, which were just these soulless
0:33:13 > 0:33:17little mini-cities.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20It's quite ominous. The bass line is quite ominous.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23It's talking about people's addictions, basically, in the city.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33What's that one they built? Oh, Milton Keynes, yeah.
0:33:33 > 0:33:38It just somehow caught the whole ordinariness
0:33:38 > 0:33:41and desolation of living in a new town.
0:33:42 > 0:33:46Post-punk was a flowering of creativity and idealism
0:33:46 > 0:33:49that proved rock 'n' roll didn't have to be a swindle.
0:33:50 > 0:33:55There was this whole idea of somehow controlling the means of production.
0:33:55 > 0:33:59Again, through questioning things, we were questioning contracts,
0:33:59 > 0:34:03we were realising things were being corrupted and taken away
0:34:03 > 0:34:07and polished up and made into, like, Showaddywaddy punk,
0:34:07 > 0:34:10or children's TV punk, right?
0:34:10 > 0:34:14So we wanted to have control over what we were doing.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Formed by Geoff Travis in 1978,
0:34:19 > 0:34:21Rough Trade was an indie label with a Marxist heart
0:34:21 > 0:34:23that took its cue from punk.
0:34:25 > 0:34:26Rough Trade was very important
0:34:26 > 0:34:29because they were so open to different styles.
0:34:29 > 0:34:33If you get, like, the first five records they did, for instance,
0:34:33 > 0:34:36you'll find synthesiser music,
0:34:36 > 0:34:41guitar music, women, men, mixed.
0:34:41 > 0:34:47You know, they were distributing reggae as well. It just felt very, very open.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52If you walked into Rough Trade,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55they had a catalogue of scores of artists,
0:34:55 > 0:34:57doing maybe two or three records,
0:34:57 > 0:35:00most of which wouldn't sell very much at all.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03That was their business model. It was wonderful.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09Prior to Margaret Thatcher coming to power, you know,
0:35:09 > 0:35:15the whole idea of money and commerciality was not an issue.
0:35:16 > 0:35:21It was kind of almost a bad thing, you know,
0:35:21 > 0:35:25the idea of seeking fame, success and money, was...
0:35:25 > 0:35:29You know, we weren't about that at all. In fact almost the opposite.
0:35:31 > 0:35:36What Rough Trade was to London, Factory Records was to Manchester.
0:35:36 > 0:35:40Fronted by colourful TV personality Tony Wilson,
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Factory signed Joy Division.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45They didn't care about making pots of money.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48They focused on the presentation of new music.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54Tony Wilson in particular, I loved his attitude.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57When he did the first Durutti Column LP and he and Pete Saville
0:35:57 > 0:36:00came up with the idea of putting sandpaper on the sleeve,
0:36:00 > 0:36:04so that when you put it in you destroyed all your other records.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07I thought that was absolute genius.
0:36:12 > 0:36:16That was from the Situationist Manifesto. The Situationists
0:36:16 > 0:36:19were going to bring a book out which destroyed the sleeves
0:36:19 > 0:36:20of all the other books.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26Tony appropriated the idea and said,
0:36:26 > 0:36:29"Let's put it on this album." I thought it was great.
0:36:31 > 0:36:36We got paid 50p per 100 sheets for sticking it on the LPs,
0:36:36 > 0:36:39which was double-bubble. It was great.
0:36:39 > 0:36:46It was somewhat diffused by people shrink wrapping it.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Just when the theory was getting interesting, reality bit.
0:36:58 > 0:37:03There was a little period where there was this exciting time,
0:37:03 > 0:37:06things were really happening at that point,
0:37:06 > 0:37:09and then, of course, you have this, you know...
0:37:09 > 0:37:13You can't really explain how ugly the Thatcher thing kind of was.
0:37:13 > 0:37:15It was kind of like
0:37:15 > 0:37:21the sort of really horrible, ugly, accountant types had come in,
0:37:21 > 0:37:25and they were kind of going, "Fun time's over."
0:37:25 > 0:37:28MUSIC: "By The Rivers Of Babylon" by Boney M
0:37:28 > 0:37:32On May 4th, 1979, Margaret Thatcher took office,
0:37:32 > 0:37:36A Prime Minister who the post-punks instinctively hated.
0:37:40 > 0:37:45To be a punk, you had to keep on changing and questioning.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49We thought we were questioning the very structure of society
0:37:49 > 0:37:52and the very structure of the music you were playing,
0:37:52 > 0:37:54so we ended up wandering into this nether land.
0:37:58 > 0:38:04We came out with this demented, you know, God knows what!
0:38:05 > 0:38:10Avant-guard jazz meets King Tubby at the roots of hell or something!
0:38:10 > 0:38:13# We are prostitutes
0:38:15 > 0:38:17# Everyone has their price
0:38:19 > 0:38:21# We are prostitutes
0:38:23 > 0:38:26# Everyone has their price. #
0:38:26 > 0:38:28The ironically-named Pop Group
0:38:28 > 0:38:35caught something of the rising monetary zeitgeist in October 1979, with a stinging take on consumerism.
0:38:35 > 0:38:39# And you too will learn to live the lie
0:38:39 > 0:38:43# And you too will learn to live the lie
0:38:43 > 0:38:47# You will learn to live the lie
0:38:47 > 0:38:51# Everyone has their price. #
0:38:59 > 0:39:03It's not negative to think about politics and the way the world runs.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06Since the 1900s, they've been trying to tell us that working people
0:39:06 > 0:39:09shouldn't think about how their lives are controlled,
0:39:09 > 0:39:11but it's good to feel a bit empowered.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14# Ambition
0:39:14 > 0:39:17# Consumer fascism... #
0:39:17 > 0:39:20That's when Thatcher and all this stuff comes in.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22So suddenly your brain's going, "Oh, my God.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25"I'm not what they call an adult, am I?"
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Of course we weren't until we were about 48!
0:39:28 > 0:39:31# We are prostitutes... #
0:39:31 > 0:39:34And some of us still aren't! We won't mention names.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37Do you know what I mean? Punk isn't standing playing four...
0:39:37 > 0:39:42Punk is experimenting, in fashion, in clothes and politics.
0:39:42 > 0:39:43That's what punk is, you know?
0:39:43 > 0:39:48Not some old fat fart lecturing you about punk on fucking BBC Four.
0:39:51 > 0:39:55In 1979, the anger and radicalism of punk
0:39:55 > 0:39:59hadn't just dissipated into the realms of musical aestheticism.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02There were also now real anarchists involved.
0:40:02 > 0:40:07# I am an Antichrist
0:40:07 > 0:40:10# I am an anarchist
0:40:10 > 0:40:12# Don't know what I want... #
0:40:12 > 0:40:15Crass promoted anarchy
0:40:15 > 0:40:19as a political ideology, and advocated direct action.
0:40:19 > 0:40:21# I...
0:40:21 > 0:40:25- # I just wanna be - He wants to be
0:40:25 > 0:40:27# Anarchy. #
0:40:29 > 0:40:33We were intervening on something which we saw as just a hedonistic wank.
0:40:33 > 0:40:37And although it's a slight misrepresentation
0:40:37 > 0:40:41of Lydon's "no future",
0:40:41 > 0:40:46we, as the people we were, absolutely would not accept there was no future.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49The future is ours to make. That's what we went out to say.
0:40:49 > 0:40:54The future is not ours to make by "get pissed destroy".
0:40:54 > 0:40:57The future was a positive one and we were going to create a positive one.
0:40:57 > 0:41:00# Fuck the politically minded Here's something I want to say
0:41:00 > 0:41:04# About the state of nation The way it treats us... #
0:41:04 > 0:41:09Punk, to Crass, was all about dogma rather than musical experimentation.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12# Then you're a prime example of how they must not be
0:41:12 > 0:41:14# This is just a sample of what they've done to you and me
0:41:14 > 0:41:17# Do they owe us a living? Of course they do, of course they do
0:41:17 > 0:41:19# Owe us a living? Of course they do... #
0:41:19 > 0:41:26What I needed was to offer
0:41:26 > 0:41:30a substantial concept of freedom,
0:41:30 > 0:41:35which I think was best expressed in there is no authority but yourself,
0:41:35 > 0:41:38which became our major catchphrase.
0:41:38 > 0:41:43- NEWSREEL:- Crass and what they represent are attacked politically from all sides.
0:41:43 > 0:41:48The right see them simply as criminals out to destroy the existing structures of society.
0:41:48 > 0:41:54The left see them as hopeless utopians, deviationists, nearer to a bunch of vandals.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58As for the authorities, they don't like anarchists in general because they're unpredictable.
0:41:58 > 0:42:02You can never tell how they'll react to a given political situation.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05MUSIC: "Do They Owe Us A Living" by Crass
0:42:08 > 0:42:11# Do they owe us a living? Course they do, course they do
0:42:11 > 0:42:14# Owe us a living? Course they do, course they do
0:42:14 > 0:42:17# Owe us a living? Course they fucking do. #
0:42:17 > 0:42:20One of the worst confrontations I ever experienced,
0:42:20 > 0:42:22and we certainly experienced plenty,
0:42:22 > 0:42:26with attacks from the British Movement and all that sort of shit,
0:42:26 > 0:42:31but one of the most unpleasant ones was when the vegetarians and vegans
0:42:31 > 0:42:35decided to have a go at each other. That was just ludicrous.
0:42:37 > 0:42:39Anarcho-punks weren't the only ones to reclaim punk.
0:42:39 > 0:42:43The Oi! Movement, led by Cockney Rejects,
0:42:43 > 0:42:45were the bastard offspring of Sham 69.
0:42:45 > 0:42:50They wanted to take punk from the King's Road back to the East End.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57They were dragging punk from the art schools
0:42:57 > 0:42:59back to the reality of what the mythology of punk was.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02They were the reality of punk mythology.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05# Gotta break out Find something else to do
0:43:05 > 0:43:08# I can't stand being stuck in here with you
0:43:08 > 0:43:11# Gonna have a laugh Break into a store
0:43:11 > 0:43:14# You know I'm bored I don't care any more... #
0:43:14 > 0:43:19Like The Angels With Dirty Faces, they came from places you don't want to go.
0:43:19 > 0:43:23That's why there was not a lot written by the middle-class media
0:43:23 > 0:43:25about these new bands.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28# I'm not so ignorant
0:43:28 > 0:43:30# I'm not a fool
0:43:30 > 0:43:33# So keep your intelligence
0:43:33 > 0:43:36# I'm not a fool
0:43:36 > 0:43:38# I'm not a fool... #
0:43:38 > 0:43:41The music press had a built-in resistance to punk.
0:43:41 > 0:43:43They hated punk in the first place, the normal punk.
0:43:43 > 0:43:45They were much happier when New Wave happened.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48New Wave was more intellectual, more middle-class,
0:43:48 > 0:43:51people who had been to university who were Marxists,
0:43:51 > 0:43:55like the Gang Of Four. They loved bands like that because they were more up their street.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03The turn of the decade was beset by all sorts of dread and tension.
0:44:03 > 0:44:08But by far the most terrifying was the crescendoing Cold War.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13Enormous military build-ups in both Russia and Reagan's America,
0:44:13 > 0:44:16underscored by the Soviet war in Afghanistan,
0:44:16 > 0:44:20had led to a renewed round of political brinkmanship.
0:44:24 > 0:44:27There was an office on top of the shop of Rough Trade.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30I was walking around in full army gear with a helmet on,
0:44:30 > 0:44:35because I thought World War III was about to break out. Honestly.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46'If we are attacked by nuclear weapons,
0:44:46 > 0:44:49'these are the warning sounds you must recognise.'
0:44:49 > 0:44:52You may find some of this film disturbing,
0:44:52 > 0:44:55but as long as we remain a likely target for attack,
0:44:55 > 0:44:57we must think about the unthinkable.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01UK alarm level one. Missile attack.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10Would you know what to do if you heard sirens sound?
0:45:10 > 0:45:15Waste of time, innit, going anywhere. You've had it, in't ya?
0:45:15 > 0:45:18- You've had it, in't ya?- Will you take any preparations at all?
0:45:18 > 0:45:21What preparations? You've had it, in't ya? You've had it, in't ya?
0:45:21 > 0:45:25No messing about, is it? You've had it, in't ya?
0:45:25 > 0:45:27No point crying over spilt milk, is there?
0:45:27 > 0:45:30AIR-RAID SIREN WAILS
0:45:33 > 0:45:37Resourceful Brits that we were, we knew that carefully-placed cushions
0:45:37 > 0:45:42would deliver us and our pets from mutually assured destruction.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53Nuclear war was a huge threat, you know.
0:45:53 > 0:45:59It was a great paranoia that I think a lot of people held,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02even if they weren't talking about it all the time.
0:46:02 > 0:46:06There was the underlying fear of this great force out there
0:46:06 > 0:46:09that could be so destructive.
0:46:09 > 0:46:11If post-punk was characterised by gloom,
0:46:11 > 0:46:15its darkest masterpiece was Young Marble Giants' Final Day,
0:46:15 > 0:46:19a 1 minute 40 minimalist painting of Armageddon,
0:46:19 > 0:46:20released on Rough Trade.
0:46:20 > 0:46:22# When the rich die last
0:46:22 > 0:46:25# Like the rabbits running from a lucky past
0:46:25 > 0:46:27# Full of shadow cunning
0:46:27 > 0:46:29# And the world lights up for the final day
0:46:29 > 0:46:33# We will all be poor having had our say... #
0:46:33 > 0:46:37I wrote the song for the plight of humanity.
0:46:37 > 0:46:41When the rich die last, like the rabbits running from a lucky past,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45full of shallow cunning, I was getting my dig in there.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49I quite like digging at the rich. It's just pure jealousy!
0:46:49 > 0:46:50HE LAUGHS
0:46:50 > 0:46:53# Put a blanket up on the window pane
0:46:53 > 0:46:55# When the baby cries lullaby again
0:46:55 > 0:46:58# As the night goes out on the final day
0:46:58 > 0:47:02# For the people who never had a say. #
0:47:02 > 0:47:07Even now when I listen to that track, it's got a very strong energy to it,
0:47:07 > 0:47:12in terms of its bleakness and the fear that's in it, really, as well.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20# There is so much noise There is too much heat
0:47:20 > 0:47:24# And the living floor throws you off your feet
0:47:24 > 0:47:26# As the final day falls into the night
0:47:26 > 0:47:30# There is peace outside in the narrow light. #
0:47:36 > 0:47:39Just when it seemed things couldn't get any darker,
0:47:39 > 0:47:44in 1980, post-punk's poster boy took his own life.
0:47:45 > 0:47:50Ian Curtis's suicide both canonised and ended Joy Division.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55Atmosphere was re-released as a posthumous requiem,
0:47:55 > 0:47:59replete with iconic video, which helped create a post-punk legend.
0:48:02 > 0:48:07When Ian died, we just cut Joy Division off, cut it adrift.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13The group literally was professional for about nine months.
0:48:15 > 0:48:19It was such a small, short time, you know.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22To look back now and think of the effect you've had,
0:48:22 > 0:48:27and the effect that you're having on music now, 30-odd years later,
0:48:27 > 0:48:31is ridiculous. It's a great compliment to the songwriters.
0:48:35 > 0:48:41He was an incredible poet, more than anything else.
0:48:41 > 0:48:46Just amazing. A one-off, a one-off.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49MUSIC: "Geno" by Dexys Midnight Runners
0:48:50 > 0:48:54In the new decade, there would be a noticeable change of mood.
0:48:58 > 0:49:02The term "post-punk" is generally applied to a lot of bands
0:49:02 > 0:49:07who couldn't really play but had been at university
0:49:07 > 0:49:15and were applying either art theory or Marxist theory to music
0:49:15 > 0:49:20that was kind of amateurish but maybe feeling towards something new.
0:49:22 > 0:49:27- What about Dexys Midnight Runners? - What about The Specials, The Pogues?
0:49:27 > 0:49:30All bands who took traditional musical forms
0:49:30 > 0:49:34and then brought it screaming and kicking right up-to-date,
0:49:34 > 0:49:37by writing about life in contemporary Britain.
0:49:38 > 0:49:41MUSIC: "You're Wondering Now" by The Specials
0:49:48 > 0:49:522Tone marked the moment when post-punk went positive.
0:49:52 > 0:49:56Fusing black ska with the energy of punk, 2Tone was wildly popular.
0:49:58 > 0:50:01It was spearheaded by The Specials' Jerry Dammers,
0:50:01 > 0:50:05whose ambition was to rescue punk from the darkness.
0:50:07 > 0:50:102Tone revolutionised the pop scene. It revolutionised everything in it,
0:50:10 > 0:50:14cos it had a philosophy, it had a person whose vision it was who was driving it,
0:50:14 > 0:50:18and it would never have happened without Jerry Dammers. He made that happen.
0:50:21 > 0:50:242Tone was actually more popular than punk ever was.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26Punk was quite an extreme thing.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29It was quite a minority interest, really.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32There was a lot of negative sides to it,
0:50:32 > 0:50:38and it was in danger of degenerating into out-and-out fascism.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41That's what we felt, with the Sham Army and everything.
0:50:41 > 0:50:48That's where we came in, to try and get in there and change the way people thought.
0:50:48 > 0:50:50MUSIC: "Ghost Town" by The Specials
0:50:53 > 0:50:58Released in 1981, Ghost Town was post-punk's God Save The Queen moment.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02Not since the Pistols' searing release of four years prior,
0:51:02 > 0:51:06had such social comment caught the imagination of a nation.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15We went and did a gig in Glasgow,
0:51:15 > 0:51:21and there were a lot of people on the streets selling their household items, just in the street.
0:51:21 > 0:51:23It was just really strange.
0:51:23 > 0:51:28Little old ladies selling their tea cups.
0:51:28 > 0:51:30I'd never seen that in this country before.
0:51:30 > 0:51:34That's where I really got the idea for that song.
0:51:34 > 0:51:37It wasn't just about Glasgow. It was about the whole country.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40It was about Coventry as well.
0:51:40 > 0:51:42Factories were closing down.
0:51:42 > 0:51:47All the big industries were being closed down, you know, by Thatcher.
0:51:47 > 0:51:50# This town is coming like a ghost town
0:51:50 > 0:51:53# No jobs to be found in this country
0:51:53 > 0:51:58# Can't go on no more
0:51:58 > 0:52:00# People getting angry... #
0:52:03 > 0:52:07Ghost Town reached number one in July 1981.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10It marked a parting of the waves for post-punk.
0:52:10 > 0:52:13After years of being wilfully uncommercial,
0:52:13 > 0:52:18the most radical thing left for some was to reinvigorate the charts.
0:52:22 > 0:52:24MUSIC: "The Sound Of The Crowd" by The Human League
0:52:29 > 0:52:33# Don't put your hand in a party wave
0:52:36 > 0:52:39# Make a shroud pulling combs through a backwash frame... #
0:52:39 > 0:52:42You couldn't get any more avant-garde than
0:52:42 > 0:52:44the early Human League.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47But by 1982, they were the biggest pop band in the world.
0:52:50 > 0:52:53# Stroke a pocket with a print of a laughing sound... #
0:52:53 > 0:52:57Something came along in 1982, where suddenly it was cool
0:52:57 > 0:53:01to be on the cover of the NME, as it always was,
0:53:01 > 0:53:05but even more cool if you could somehow also be on the cover of Smash Hits.
0:53:05 > 0:53:11People like Martin Fry, ABC coming along, Billy Mackenzie...
0:53:11 > 0:53:12Mavericks.
0:53:12 > 0:53:15# I'm standing still
0:53:15 > 0:53:20# And you say I dress too well... #
0:53:21 > 0:53:27Post Punk's reinvigoration of pop was the apex of this generation's story.
0:53:27 > 0:53:32There still remained those for whom there was no success like failure,
0:53:32 > 0:53:35and failure was no success at all.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38# Have I done something wrong?
0:53:38 > 0:53:43# What's wrong? The wrong that's always in wrong...#
0:53:43 > 0:53:48It was an explosion and it was very short lived, maybe two or three years,
0:53:48 > 0:53:52and then it branched off into these different things.
0:53:52 > 0:53:58Then the whole music scene got squeaky clean with groups like Duran Duran and Wham!
0:54:00 > 0:54:07Duran Duran were like Wire with nice-looking boys and cheerful tunes.
0:54:08 > 0:54:11People talk about the early '80s as being this amazing...
0:54:11 > 0:54:14A whole post-punk scene.
0:54:14 > 0:54:16Most people didn't even know about that stuff.
0:54:16 > 0:54:20What they knew about was pop. Pop suddenly supplanted everything.
0:54:20 > 0:54:27The whole thing became unrecognisably glossy and kind of royal blue and shoulder pads.
0:54:27 > 0:54:30What happened next? The New Romantics.
0:54:30 > 0:54:34It was, like, "Oh!" Tragic, really, you know?
0:54:34 > 0:54:38We're the eternal underground. We're the eternal influence.
0:54:38 > 0:54:45We're the grumpy granddads who were there before you've been anywhere.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48No way. No, no. I'm not having that in.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53Perhaps the song that best summed up the post-punk era
0:54:53 > 0:54:56was Rip It Up And Start Again.
0:54:56 > 0:55:01Edwyn Collins had borne witness to The Clash's White Riot tour in '77,
0:55:01 > 0:55:04before forming his own band, Orange Juice.
0:55:06 > 0:55:10# Rip it up and start again
0:55:10 > 0:55:14# I hope to God you're not as dumb as you make out
0:55:14 > 0:55:16# I hope to God... #
0:55:16 > 0:55:21I wanted to try something different, something new,
0:55:21 > 0:55:24jangly guitars.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26# I hope to God.. #
0:55:26 > 0:55:32Spencer Davis Group, Stevie Winwood and all that shit.
0:55:32 > 0:55:37Raw but interesting. It's a time for a change.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40# You know the sea is very... #
0:55:40 > 0:55:45The song contained a canny reference to punk originals The Buzzcocks.
0:56:03 > 0:56:05Stories of London.
0:56:05 > 0:56:07Public Image Ltd 2012.
0:56:07 > 0:56:12John Lydon is back with the first new PiL album in 20 years.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20From The Sex Pistols to PiL,
0:56:20 > 0:56:22Johnny Rotten to John Lydon,
0:56:22 > 0:56:26King Johnny remains the ever-contrarian spirit of punk.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29MUSIC: "Reggie Song" by PiL
0:56:38 > 0:56:42# You see a Reginald
0:56:42 > 0:56:45# He is a reasonable man
0:56:46 > 0:56:48# And being comfortable
0:56:49 > 0:56:52# With a bit of a better plan
0:56:53 > 0:56:56# He don't see... #
0:56:56 > 0:56:59Over the years there's been some 49 different members of PiL.
0:57:02 > 0:57:07It's almost like a working-class university.
0:57:13 > 0:57:15I suppose the one thing you learn in PiL the most
0:57:15 > 0:57:20is the punk ethos is do it yourself because nobody will do it for you.
0:57:20 > 0:57:22# I've been dreaming... #
0:57:22 > 0:57:26Don't sit back and try to learn the set formats.
0:57:26 > 0:57:28# I'm still living... #
0:57:29 > 0:57:32If you do that you become institutionalised
0:57:32 > 0:57:36and you become as tedious as everything else in the top 30.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38# Back in the garden
0:57:39 > 0:57:42# I'm still living... #
0:57:44 > 0:57:48I love being on top of the ocean and I love being underneath it too.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50I love that.
0:57:50 > 0:57:54The colours down there, the life that goes on, it's fantastic.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57It's both sides of the picture, the yin and the yang.
0:57:57 > 0:57:59# We're all still living
0:58:04 > 0:58:08# Back in the garden
0:58:10 > 0:58:15# I'll be there. #
0:58:21 > 0:58:23Welcome to our world.