:00:00. > :00:00.This programme contains strong language and scenes you may find
:00:00. > :00:14.disturbing. 20 years ago, the IRA and Loyalist
:00:15. > :00:18.paramilitaries declared an end to the so called war that claimed the
:00:19. > :00:22.lives of more than 3,000 people. EXPLOSION
:00:23. > :00:22.lives of more than 3,000 people. Their historic ceasefires marked
:00:23. > :00:30.the beginning of the road to peace that Northern Ireland enjoys today.
:00:31. > :00:34.I've been covering the conflict for more than 40 years
:00:35. > :00:37.and I never dreamt it would have been so utterly transformed from
:00:38. > :00:40.and I never dreamt it would have a war zone...
:00:41. > :00:44.EXPLOSION ...to somewhere that looks
:00:45. > :00:47.just like any other part of the UK. I also never imagined I'd see
:00:48. > :00:48.the remarkable sight of the Republican and Unionist
:00:49. > :00:57.extremes ? Sinn Fein, and the Democratic Unionist Party - sharing
:00:58. > :00:59.political power at Stormont. What's the current state
:01:00. > :01:05.of your relationship with the Deputy First Minister?
:01:06. > :01:07.What it always was. Very good.
:01:08. > :01:11.No change, not an inch and no surrender.
:01:12. > :01:15.The former IRA commander Martin McGuinness having an audience with
:01:16. > :01:19.the Queen as Deputy First Minister, is an astonishing illustration
:01:20. > :01:23.of just how far things have come. Nice to see you.
:01:24. > :01:28.So how did this near miraculous transition
:01:29. > :01:33.from war to peace come about? I've made almost 100 documentaries
:01:34. > :01:37.on the conflict and this year I've come back to meet again many
:01:38. > :01:42.of the people I've talked to over the years.
:01:43. > :01:46.I'm going to show them clips of what they said then...
:01:47. > :01:50....and ask them how they feel about where we are today.
:01:51. > :01:53.If they're going to do that to us, we're going to do that to you.
:01:54. > :01:58.So you tell them to stop. When you look at that now?
:01:59. > :02:01.It was wrong. We don't believe winning elections
:02:02. > :02:05.and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom in Ireland.
:02:06. > :02:08.At the end of the day, it will be the cutting edge of the IRA
:02:09. > :02:11.which will bring freedom. Was it the cutting edge of the IRA
:02:12. > :02:17.that in the end brought what you would describe as "freedom"?
:02:18. > :02:20.It is often argued that the British came to the negotiating table
:02:21. > :02:24.specifically because of an ongoing IRA campaign.
:02:25. > :02:28.I want to talk to all sides - from paramilitaries to politicians ?
:02:29. > :02:33.and ask them who they think were the winners and losers.
:02:34. > :02:34.But in the end I want to reach my own conclusion.
:02:35. > :02:51.Who really did win the war? 'Good morning, ladies and gentlemen,
:02:52. > :02:56.this is your 11.38 service for Norwich...'
:02:57. > :02:59.When I first began to cover Northern Ireland, the last thing on
:03:00. > :03:03.people's minds in the rest of the United Kingdom was the escalating
:03:04. > :03:07.conflict on the other side of the Irish Sea.
:03:08. > :03:11.Friends in England ask why I'm still reporting the conflict.
:03:12. > :03:19."Isn't it all sorted since the ceasefires?" they ask.
:03:20. > :03:23.But all sorted it is not. In some places,
:03:24. > :03:26.normality seems a veneer to hide the powerful undercurrents
:03:27. > :03:33.of bitterness and resentment that have never gone away.
:03:34. > :03:35.I've seen many Loyalist bonfires over the years,
:03:36. > :03:41.but this is without exception the biggest Loyalist bonfire that
:03:42. > :03:45.I've ever set eyes upon. In July, during the annual marching
:03:46. > :03:49.season, I visited the Loyalist heartland of Belfast's Shankill
:03:50. > :03:52.Road. Giant bonfires tower towards
:03:53. > :03:58.the sky, celebrating Protestants' ancient victory over Catholics
:03:59. > :04:01.at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. This year, the bonfires are
:04:02. > :04:06.bigger than ever seeming to symbolise Loyalist discontent.
:04:07. > :04:09.There's two sides in this country. We are allowed nothing.
:04:10. > :04:12.We get nothing and they are allowed everything.
:04:13. > :04:15.Why are the feelings so intense and the hostilities so deep?
:04:16. > :04:17.That's what many people back in England...
:04:18. > :04:21.They don't understand. Because no-one can let go
:04:22. > :04:24.of their past. Around the bonfire, burned raw
:04:25. > :04:30.anger, given how the tables have turned with Martin McGuinness
:04:31. > :04:33.now sharing power at Stormont. The Union is as secure as it has
:04:34. > :04:36.ever been so what are you worried about?
:04:37. > :04:40.No. The Union will not change
:04:41. > :04:43.unless the majority of the people of Northern Ireland,
:04:44. > :04:45.which is your majority, want it to. And to be fair they're breeding
:04:46. > :04:48.like rabbits, so 50 years down the line it might change.
:04:49. > :04:53.Well, if it changes because the majority want it to
:04:54. > :04:56.change, that's OK, isn't it? No.
:04:57. > :05:01.Why are there Sinn Fein posters of Sinn Fein politicians?
:05:02. > :05:05.Sinn Fein are not the most favourite of people.
:05:06. > :05:08.They're in government. Deputy Prime Minister - and he's
:05:09. > :05:13.been in jail during the Troubles. Known IRA man in Londonderry.
:05:14. > :05:16.Martin McGuinness has come a long way since I first met him
:05:17. > :05:22.in the troubled streets of Londonderry 42 years ago.
:05:23. > :05:25.I'd arrived here a few hours after 13 Catholics, marching for
:05:26. > :05:32.civil rights, had been shot dead by British paratroopers on the day that
:05:33. > :05:37.became known as "Bloody Sunday". I remember two days after Bloody
:05:38. > :05:41.Sunday or thereabouts standing here, or perhaps it was over by those
:05:42. > :05:56.railings, and I was talking to John Hume from the SDLP, the Social
:05:57. > :05:58.Democratic Labour Party, who were the moderate non-violent Catholic
:05:59. > :06:01.politicians. And I remember John Hume saying to me,
:06:02. > :06:05.the person you want to watch is that young man over there.
:06:06. > :06:08.His name is Martin McGuinness. John Hume was right
:06:09. > :06:12.and his words were prophetic. When did you join the IRA?
:06:13. > :06:16.I joined the IRA in 1970. Did your mother know that
:06:17. > :06:19.you'd joined the IRA? No, not initially, she didn't know.
:06:20. > :06:21.She... You didn't tell her, you didn't tell
:06:22. > :06:27.her? Oh no, I absolutely didn't tell her.
:06:28. > :06:30.I didn't tell either of my parents. But my mother found, I think it was
:06:31. > :06:34.a black beret or something like that, in the house, and immediately
:06:35. > :06:38.traumatised her, I think, yeah. Did your mother produce the beret
:06:39. > :06:41.and say, "What's this, Martin?" Oh, absolutely.
:06:42. > :06:44.Yeah. She didn't hit me with it
:06:45. > :06:47.or anything like that. Or if there were gloves, there was
:06:48. > :06:50.no smack across the face with the gloves.
:06:51. > :07:00.No, I think that it was a moment in time and she was obviously annoyed
:07:01. > :07:10.at the prospect that all of our lives were changing and maybe
:07:11. > :07:13.mine's more dramatically than anybody else's.
:07:14. > :07:14.Dramatic change is part of Ireland's tortured history.
:07:15. > :07:17.After partition in 1921, Northern Ireland was established
:07:18. > :07:23.as a Protestant state for a Protestant people - with a
:07:24. > :07:26.Protestant parliament at Stormont. Catholics were second-class
:07:27. > :07:29.citizens ? victims of blatant discrimination.
:07:30. > :07:43.On Bloody Sunday they were marching to demand equal rights and
:07:44. > :07:47.an end to internment without trial. Do not fire back for the moment
:07:48. > :07:49.until you identify a target... 20 years on,
:07:50. > :07:55.I interviewed one of those soldiers who wished to remain anonymous.
:07:56. > :08:04.It changed from an ordinary scoop-up arrest operation to hey,
:08:05. > :08:07.someone's trying to kill me. You looked for targets.
:08:08. > :08:10.Started identifying them and started dropping them.
:08:11. > :08:12.Started dropping them? Shooting them.
:08:13. > :08:14.Do you stand by what you told me then?
:08:15. > :08:18.Oh, yes. 100 per cent.
:08:19. > :08:22.If I had to do the same thing again, I would do it.
:08:23. > :08:24.No regrets? No regrets.
:08:25. > :08:27.Martin McGuiness and his colleagues would say you
:08:28. > :08:30.have blood on your hands - the blood of innocent civilians.
:08:31. > :08:33.I've got blood on my hands, yes, but not of innocent civilians.
:08:34. > :08:36.What I did, I did correctly. Catholics saw Bloody Sunday
:08:37. > :08:38.as a massacre of the innocents. 40 years later,
:08:39. > :08:42.Lord Saville who'd investigated the killings, broadly agreed, accusing
:08:43. > :08:48.some of the soldiers of fabricating accounts to justify their actions.
:08:49. > :08:52.some of the soldiers of fabricating Are you one of those soldiers?
:08:53. > :08:53.No way. I told the truth
:08:54. > :09:00.as I seen it the information to prove his point.
:09:01. > :09:02.Did you believe that you were fighting a war?
:09:03. > :09:06.Yes. were fighting a war?
:09:07. > :09:09.When people are getting killed around you you're fighting a war.
:09:10. > :09:18.The wound of Bloody Sunday still open ? despite the
:09:19. > :09:20.government's attempt to heal it. The government is ultimately
:09:21. > :09:24.responsible for the conduct of the armed forces and for that, on behalf
:09:25. > :09:31.of our government, indeed on behalf of our country, I am deeply sorry.
:09:32. > :09:34.Whereas Republicans see the Saville Inquiry as delivering
:09:35. > :09:40.justice, many Loyalists see it as a sop to Sinn Fein.
:09:41. > :09:45.Despite the ongoing sensitivities, I've always regarded Bloody Sunday
:09:46. > :09:49.as the seminal event that gave the conflict its impetus.
:09:50. > :09:58.That was the moment when the IRA's real "war" began.
:09:59. > :10:02.Demands for civil rights were now drowned out by the sound of guns
:10:03. > :10:04.and bombs... EXPLOSION
:10:05. > :10:08....the beginning of a concerted military campaign to
:10:09. > :10:14.end British involvement in the North and unify Ireland.
:10:15. > :10:17.Many young people who hadn't previously contemplated being
:10:18. > :10:22.involved in the IRA, then decided that they would take
:10:23. > :10:28.that very dramatic step. The high moral ground went
:10:29. > :10:34.in some people's eyes to the IRA and Sinn Fein as a result
:10:35. > :10:38.of what happened on Bloody Sunday. They were given a credibility,
:10:39. > :10:42.and a standing within the community which they used to
:10:43. > :10:47.great effect, and are still using, and that directly resulted from
:10:48. > :11:00.the trauma of the all those dead bodies in the streets in Derry.
:11:01. > :11:06.Watch the step. Today, Catholics enjoy equal rights
:11:07. > :11:14.with Protestants and Stormont is no longer
:11:15. > :11:19.the secure citadel of Unionism. Here we are.
:11:20. > :11:27.There's the statue of Carson, the symbol of Protestant Unionist
:11:28. > :11:29.resistance. What that statue says to me
:11:30. > :11:35.is Ulster will fight. Ulster will be right, no surrender.
:11:36. > :11:38.What would he think if he knew you were here now and what you were?
:11:39. > :11:42.It really doesn't remotely concern me what he would think.
:11:43. > :11:46.What concerns me is what present-day Uionist leaders think.
:11:47. > :11:56.They are the people that I have to work with.
:11:57. > :12:00.According to a Gallup Poll we've commissioned for this programme...
:12:01. > :12:03.Nearly 30 years ago, I chaired a studio discussion in which
:12:04. > :12:07.Peter Robinson, now First Minister, accused the then government
:12:08. > :12:10.of giving in to the IRA. The reward is given to terrorist
:12:11. > :12:12.and the reward is given to the boycotter.
:12:13. > :12:15.Hasn't the reward today been given to the so-called terrorist with
:12:16. > :12:23.the former IRA leader Martin McGuiness now being your Deputy?
:12:24. > :12:27.Isn't that their reward? I think the distinction between the
:12:28. > :12:32.two is that Martin McGuiness and Sinn Fein have a mandate from the
:12:33. > :12:37.Nationalist Republican community. There's a difference
:12:38. > :12:40.between giving somebody a position in the politics of Northern Ireland
:12:41. > :12:43.because they have a mandate, and giving somebody a role in
:12:44. > :12:46.the politics for Northern Ireland because they threaten violence or
:12:47. > :12:50.actually carry out violence. The Queen has made an extraordinary,
:12:51. > :12:58.if more regal, journey too - inviting the Deputy First Minister
:12:59. > :13:00.to a banquet at Windsor Castle. Neither of us would ever have
:13:01. > :13:05.anticipated Martin McGuiness dining with the Queen, would we?
:13:06. > :13:08.No, I think that the men in white coats would've taken both of us
:13:09. > :13:14.away. There is a much greater maturity
:13:15. > :13:17.about our acceptance of the identity and what's important to each
:13:18. > :13:20.of the sections of our community. And that's as much as a case
:13:21. > :13:23.for myself as it is for Martin McGuinness.
:13:24. > :13:25.Queen Elizabeth has many reasons not to meet with me.
:13:26. > :13:28.I have many reasons not to meet with her.
:13:29. > :13:32.But as Deputy First Minister I thought it was important to take
:13:33. > :13:44.the opportunity through her to reach out the hand of friendship to
:13:45. > :13:47.the Unionist people of the North. But the unlikely love affair
:13:48. > :13:51.between Sinn Fein and the British monarchy has only fuelled Loyalist
:13:52. > :14:00.fears that the Union with Britain is being undermined.
:14:01. > :14:03.Like the IRA, Loyalist paramilitaries resorted to
:14:04. > :14:14.violence to keep the Union secure. In 1972, Jackie McDonald joined the
:14:15. > :14:18.paramilitary Ulster Defence Association.
:14:19. > :14:27.Why did you and so many other young Loyalists join the UDA at the time?
:14:28. > :14:30.Well, there was so much going on and it was building up
:14:31. > :14:39.and building up and when I joined, it wasn't long after Bloody Friday.
:14:40. > :14:45.Bloody Friday was the day in July 1972, when the IRA planted 23 bombs
:14:46. > :14:48.in the heart of Belfast. Nine people died and 130 were
:14:49. > :14:51.injured. Like Bloody Sunday for the IRA,
:14:52. > :15:00.Bloody Friday was a powerful recruiting agent
:15:01. > :15:03.for loyalist paramilitaries. Some of my best friends are killers
:15:04. > :15:06.and they took the fight to the Republicans to show that the
:15:07. > :15:12.IRA wasn't this invincible army and it was to terrorise the terrorist.
:15:13. > :15:14.But it wasn't just republicans who were targeted.
:15:15. > :15:18.Ordinary, innocent Catholics were targeted and murdered by...
:15:19. > :15:20.Well, like, yes, and that happened both ways, Peter.
:15:21. > :15:23...by loyalists. Yep.
:15:24. > :15:27.But it happened both ways. I just want to show you
:15:28. > :15:32.a clip of what you told me when I interviewed you last time.
:15:33. > :15:34.Billy Hutchinson is a former member of the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer
:15:35. > :15:40.Force and now leads the loyalist Progressive Unionist Party.
:15:41. > :15:44.He was sentenced to life for murder committed in 1974.
:15:45. > :15:47.At this junction at 7:30 one morning the UVF drove
:15:48. > :15:50.by and shot dead two young Catholics.
:15:51. > :15:55.Do you regret the murder of those two young men?
:15:56. > :15:58.No, I don't have any regrets for anything I have done.
:15:59. > :16:02.I believe that I was a part of a war and that war had to be fought.
:16:03. > :16:05.What do you think when you see that now?
:16:06. > :16:09.I regret every life that was taken and everybody who was injured
:16:10. > :16:12.during the conflict. I suppose in many ways I wish that
:16:13. > :16:14.the conflict had never happened but it did.
:16:15. > :16:18.Many young men were driven by that notion that the IRA had to
:16:19. > :16:23.be stopped and that the British government weren't going to do it.
:16:24. > :16:25.I remember watching loyalist paramilitaries emerge
:16:26. > :16:33.from the shadows in the early 1970s as the IRA campaign intensified.
:16:34. > :16:34.Have you any idea who these people are?
:16:35. > :16:37.No. Are you frightened?
:16:38. > :16:39.I am not indeed. I'm glad to see them round here.
:16:40. > :16:41.Why? Because I am.
:16:42. > :16:49.I think it's about time our ones started to do something.
:16:50. > :16:52.It was a message to the IRA if you're going to do that to us,
:16:53. > :16:54.we're going to do this to you. So you tell them to stop.
:16:55. > :16:58.And you look at that now?
:16:59. > :17:02.It was wrong. Killing innocent Catholics?
:17:03. > :17:05.Killing anybody. Looking back there was
:17:06. > :17:10.a different way of doing things. Violence only gets you so far.
:17:11. > :17:12.The provisional IRA realised that and they turned to the ballot box,
:17:13. > :17:17.turned to democracy. and they turned to the ballot box,
:17:18. > :17:17.And it's taken them a long way. Adams, Gerry, Sinn
:17:18. > :17:29.Fein 15,072 votes. Adams, Gerry, Sinn
:17:30. > :17:30.elected to the Irish parliament. Being in government North and South
:17:31. > :17:35.is no Being in government North and South
:17:36. > :17:37.for republicans. They see it
:17:38. > :17:44.as a step to achieving Sinn Fein's ultimate goal of a united Ireland.
:17:45. > :17:47.Sinn Fein is now the largest party in terms
:17:48. > :17:50.of votes on the island of Ireland. We're the biggest party
:17:51. > :18:07.on the Ireland of Ireland. But it's what we do with that.
:18:08. > :18:14.This is the grave of Bobby Sands, the man from whom Sinn Fein's
:18:15. > :18:17.electoral success initially stemmed. Bobby Sands died after 66 days
:18:18. > :18:25.on hunger strike in the H Blocks of the Maze prison and crucially, after
:18:26. > :18:28.he had become a Westminster MP. Indirectly Bobby Sands gave the IRA
:18:29. > :18:44.its long term strategy of the Armalite and Ballot Box.
:18:45. > :18:48.The government insists that the men in these cells are common criminals
:18:49. > :18:50.sentenced by due process of law. The prisoners say they're
:18:51. > :18:54.prisoners of war. To both sides the issue
:18:55. > :19:00.at stake is one of principle. That's the real reason for
:19:01. > :19:02.the conflict here in the H blocks. Nine more republican hunger strikers
:19:03. > :19:08.followed Bobby Sands to their graves.
:19:09. > :19:20.The political consequences were seismic.
:19:21. > :19:23.I'm now sitting on the actual bed where the hunger striker Bobby Sands
:19:24. > :19:27.died in May 1981. I never thought Bobby Sands
:19:28. > :19:30.would go through with it. It was no ordinary death and Sands
:19:31. > :19:37.was no ordinary prisoner, no ordinary man because he was
:19:38. > :19:39.an elected member of parliament. The sheer scale
:19:40. > :19:43.of Sands' victory stunned Margaret Thatcher's government.
:19:44. > :19:50.His 30,000 votes gave the lie to the Prime Minister's scathing
:19:51. > :19:52.dismissal of IRA prisoners. There can no question
:19:53. > :19:59.of political status for someone who is serving a sentence for crime.
:20:00. > :20:06.Crime is crime, is crime, is crime. It is not political, it is crime.
:20:07. > :20:10.Mrs Thatcher never really understood what the problem was.
:20:11. > :20:12.James Prior, never Mrs Thatcher's darling at the best of times,
:20:13. > :20:18.was exiled to Northern Ireland to end the hunger strikes.
:20:19. > :20:22.Did you regard the IRA prisoners as terrorists?
:20:23. > :20:26.That's a very difficult question to answer.
:20:27. > :20:29.I obviously felt they were close to terrorism, particularly when they
:20:30. > :20:43.tried to kill me, but there was a deeper side to it as well as,
:20:44. > :20:45.as it were, a terrorist side. By standing firm
:20:46. > :20:51.and allowing the hunger strikers to die, Mrs Thatcher inadvertently
:20:52. > :20:53.turned them into martyrs. With the benefit of hindsight,
:20:54. > :20:59.I wondered whether Lord Prior believed her intransigence affected
:21:00. > :21:03.the final outcome of the conflict. Who won the war?
:21:04. > :21:07.I know we didn't win it, but I'm not certain the other side won it.
:21:08. > :21:11.As time went on, it became possible for both sides to
:21:12. > :21:20.get into a position where it was easier to make peace.
:21:21. > :21:26.Than make war? Than make war.
:21:27. > :21:28.The hunger strikes and Bobby Sands' election to Westminster were
:21:29. > :21:38.the watershed that indicated the ballot box might be as powerful
:21:39. > :21:40.a weapon as the armalite. The evidence that there was strong
:21:41. > :21:44.support for the prisoners brought about a huge discussion within
:21:45. > :21:46.republicanism about what we would do in the context of the assembly
:21:47. > :21:52.elections which would take place the following year, in 1982.
:21:53. > :21:58.The first elections that I ever stood for.
:21:59. > :22:00.I realised it was only through building Sinn Fein up to be
:22:01. > :22:11.a major positive political force that we would make progress.
:22:12. > :22:16.We don't believe winning elections will bring freedom in Ireland, it
:22:17. > :22:22.will be the cutting edge of the IRA that will bring freedom.
:22:23. > :22:26.Was it the cutting edge of the IRA that in the end brought what you
:22:27. > :22:30.would describe as freedom? It is often argued that the British
:22:31. > :22:33.came to the negotiating table specifically
:22:34. > :22:40.because of what was happening in regard to an ongoing IRA campaign.
:22:41. > :22:44.But I've always been very conscious that the continuing efforts that we
:22:45. > :22:47.made to build Sinn Fein up as a political party had to be designed
:22:48. > :22:51.towards bringing about a process of negotiations which would deal with
:22:52. > :22:56.the issues that lay at the heart of the conflict.
:22:57. > :23:00.The Armalite and Ballot Box strategy propelled the IRA and Sinn Fein
:23:01. > :23:09.through the 1980s ? with both wings fervently committed to Irish unity.
:23:10. > :23:13.The person elected to serve for the said constituency is Gerard Adams.
:23:14. > :23:16.Gerry Adams was a potent illustration that Sinn Fein's
:23:17. > :23:25.strategy was working when he was elected to Westminster in 1983, just
:23:26. > :23:28.two years after the hunger strikes. It was an auspicious beginning to
:23:29. > :23:32.Sinn Fein's ambition of becoming the dominant political force.
:23:33. > :23:41.North and South. politics on the whole island
:23:42. > :23:55.of Ireland and gave the type of emotional impetus to Sinn Fein for
:23:56. > :23:58.their planned to political progress. 30 years on, Sinn Fein is now a
:23:59. > :24:12.mainstream political party, proud of its Irish identity - fostering Irish
:24:13. > :24:15.culture across all walks of life. Coming back to Belfast I really get
:24:16. > :24:21.the sense that nationalists and republicans are comfortable
:24:22. > :24:24.in their own skins. You've only got to look
:24:25. > :24:43.around to realise how much Irish culture and language have become
:24:44. > :24:45.part of the fabric of life. Whether or not things have changed
:24:46. > :24:55.for the people, that they are no longer being
:24:56. > :25:03.treated as second class citizens. But not all republicans sing
:25:04. > :25:06.Sinn Fein's praises. Long-time no see, come in.
:25:07. > :25:09.Come in. It has been a long time, hasn't it?
:25:10. > :25:11.It has. Gerard Hodgins was the last IRA
:25:12. > :25:17.prisoner to go on hunger strike. He's now totally disillusioned
:25:18. > :25:21.with the Sinn Fein leadership. Just behind the tower block
:25:22. > :25:24.of the City hospital you can just make out Stormont which gives me
:25:25. > :25:28.the opportunity if I'm angry with them and many times I come out
:25:29. > :25:34.and shake my fist at them and say get on with it and do something.
:25:35. > :25:37.But the people that, you know, you supported and fought for over all
:25:38. > :25:42.those years are now in Stormont. I know.
:25:43. > :25:45.It's a crazy situation. We set out to be revolutionaries,
:25:46. > :25:49.to overthrow the state. Now they're up being caretakers
:25:50. > :25:53.of the state. It's a crazy way for things to turn.
:25:54. > :25:56.But you shake your fist at...? Aye, in a wee bit of anger,
:25:57. > :26:00.a wee bit of rage, you know? Three thousand plus people dead was
:26:01. > :26:05.a hell of a price to pay just to become a part of the state you were
:26:06. > :26:08.supposedly trying to overthrow. You know,
:26:09. > :26:10.we could have become a part of that state a long, long time ago.
:26:11. > :26:15.It's not just some republicans who are dismissive of the political
:26:16. > :26:27.establishment at Stormont. Most loyalists feel alienated too.
:26:28. > :26:30.Bonfires, flags and parades are the symbols of
:26:31. > :26:36.a British identity loyalists believe Sinn Fein is out to destroy.
:26:37. > :26:41.This is loyalism. Raw loyalism.
:26:42. > :26:48.Sinn Fein seem to be dictating what exactly happens and what doesn't.
:26:49. > :26:53.Part of the problem for loyalism is democracy hasn't worked the same.
:26:54. > :26:56.Working class unionist or loyalists in Northern Ireland actually feel
:26:57. > :27:00.that, you know, they haven't gained anything from the peace process.
:27:01. > :27:02.You will see educational underachievement,
:27:03. > :27:05.you'll see poverty, you'll see deprivation, you'll see all of those
:27:06. > :27:11.things, but as well as that you'll see people whose culture's been
:27:12. > :27:14.trailed, you know, away from them. Grass roots protestants once felt
:27:15. > :27:23.they had an iconic, charismatic champion ? who for years
:27:24. > :27:26.articulated their anger and fears. Let it go out that we are cool,
:27:27. > :27:33.cold determined loyalists who will never surrender.
:27:34. > :27:36.Extreme loyalism and unionism have always been synonymous with
:27:37. > :27:40.the late Reverend Ian Paisley, founder and former leader of
:27:41. > :27:47.the DUP who played on the ancient fears of the IRA and Popery.
:27:48. > :27:51.Romanism has controlled for many centuries and Romanism has
:27:52. > :27:57.bred poverty and ignorance and priest craft and superstition.
:27:58. > :28:01.bred poverty and ignorance Thank God for the liberty
:28:02. > :28:02.of the gospel. Dr Paisley became
:28:03. > :28:09.the thunderous champion of thousands Dr Paisley became
:28:10. > :28:12.of working class protestants and loyalist paramilitaries
:28:13. > :28:16.who saw every political move by the British in the direction of Dublin
:28:17. > :28:24.as a plot to destroy the union. We say never, never, never, never.
:28:25. > :28:31.From small beginnings, Ian Paisley built up the DUP to
:28:32. > :28:34.become the dominant unionist party - increasingly with the support
:28:35. > :28:40.of the middle classes, leaving many loyalists out in the cold.
:28:41. > :28:45.Until they address that and balance that,
:28:46. > :28:49.there will be serious problems. Political parties with connections
:28:50. > :28:52.to loyalist paramilitaries have tried to make electoral inroads ?
:28:53. > :28:59.learning lessons from the IRA and Sinn Fein ? but with mixed fortunes.
:29:00. > :29:02.It is very hard for us to get political support because we are
:29:03. > :29:06.seen to be connected to the UVF and we are seen as ex-prisoners.
:29:07. > :29:10.The IRA made this journey from a gunman on the street,
:29:11. > :29:13.wee Paddy on the border with this AK47, to being joint Prime Minister
:29:14. > :29:16.of Northern Ireland. If the Provos
:29:17. > :29:18.couldn't have made that journey from the bottom to
:29:19. > :29:22.the top, what would have happened? They'd still be killing people.
:29:23. > :29:26.While Sinn Fein prospered at the Ballot Box,
:29:27. > :29:31.the IRA's Armalite strategy became increasingly audacious.
:29:32. > :29:36.In 1984, it struck at the heart of the British government, bombing
:29:37. > :29:40.the Grand Hotel in Brighton. The Industry Secretary,
:29:41. > :29:46.Norman Tebbit, narrowly survived. His wife Margaret was paralysed
:29:47. > :29:51.for life. I have no sympathy
:29:52. > :29:55.for those who declared the war. But having said all that,
:29:56. > :29:56.one way or another, a ceasefire was achieved and to that extent, it was
:29:57. > :30:12.a price that was worth paying. The Brighton Bomb was
:30:13. > :30:16.a major turning point in the war. Such a sophisticated attack prompted
:30:17. > :30:19.the government to recognise an uncomfortable truth - that
:30:20. > :30:24.the British could not inflict a military defeat on the IRA.
:30:25. > :30:29.I wondered if Lord Tebbit thought that affected the final outcome.
:30:30. > :30:32.Who won the war? I don't think this was
:30:33. > :30:38.a war that was won. It was a war which ended in a truce.
:30:39. > :30:42.By the end of the 1980s, both the British and
:30:43. > :30:47.the IRA realised that an outright military victory was impossible.
:30:48. > :30:51.Both sides realised that the only way to break
:30:52. > :30:55.the deadlock was to talk. But the precedent
:30:56. > :31:04.for the government talking to terrorists was not encouraging.
:31:05. > :31:10.The first face to face meeting at government level was held way back
:31:11. > :31:14.in 1972 at a Minister's house in London's fashionable Cheyne Walk.
:31:15. > :31:18.The young Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams joined the then IRA
:31:19. > :31:25.Chief of Staff at the negotiating table.
:31:26. > :31:28.All were IRA? Yes, not Sinn Fein but IRA.
:31:29. > :31:30.All of them? Yes.
:31:31. > :31:33.Including Martin McGuinness? Yes.
:31:34. > :31:37.Including Gerry Adams? Well, all of them.
:31:38. > :31:40.Well, I'm very clear on this and, you know, I have consistently denied
:31:41. > :31:42.membership of the IRA, although I've never dissociated myself from the
:31:43. > :31:45.IRA. But nobody believes it, Mr Adams.
:31:46. > :31:49.Well that's, that's fair enough. That's, that's a matter for them.
:31:50. > :31:55.When Unionists found out the meeting had taken place behind their backs,
:31:56. > :31:58.they were deeply suspicious. There was a feeling of betrayal,
:31:59. > :32:01.and very much, I think, igniting a feeling within
:32:02. > :32:07.the Unionist community that they were on their own.
:32:08. > :32:10.The meeting was disastrous. Republicans demanded declaration
:32:11. > :32:13.of a British intent to withdraw by 1975.
:32:14. > :32:20.Neither side was prepared to negotiate.
:32:21. > :32:25.Was it na?ve? What, what it lacked was a strategy.
:32:26. > :32:29.When I reflect on that event I rapidly come to the conclusion that
:32:30. > :32:37.the British government were never going to, in a bilateral way,
:32:38. > :32:44.negotiate the future of this part of Ireland with Republicans to
:32:45. > :32:47.the exclusion of all others. It would be another two decades
:32:48. > :32:52.before the British met Martin McGuinness again.
:32:53. > :32:59.And it was that meeting that was to lead to the historic IRA ceasefire
:33:00. > :33:03.of 1994. The IRA put out feelers
:33:04. > :33:09.in response to coded overtures from the British, after John Major
:33:10. > :33:13.had become Prime Minister. Why did you make Northern Ireland
:33:14. > :33:16.such a priority? People were killing one another.
:33:17. > :33:19.If that had happened in Surrey or Sussex, or any part
:33:20. > :33:24.of the mainland, nobody would have tolerated it for a moment.
:33:25. > :33:29.It seemed to me to be equally intolerable in Northern Ireland.
:33:30. > :33:32.Talking to terrorists was anathema to Conservatives, but John Major
:33:33. > :33:38.reluctantly accepted the only way forward was to engage with the IRA
:33:39. > :33:43.and Loyalist paramilitaries. EXPLOSION
:33:44. > :33:46.Three days before secret talks with MI5 were due to take place, the IRA
:33:47. > :33:50.bombed Warrington, killing two little children.
:33:51. > :33:58.Incredibly, the meeting went ahead - although John Major himself was
:33:59. > :34:02.not aware of it at the time. If the implication from
:34:03. > :34:07.not aware of it at the time. that we should talk with Mr Adams
:34:08. > :34:10.and the Provisional IRA, I can only say to the honourable gentleman that
:34:11. > :34:17.would turn my stomach over and that of most people in this House
:34:18. > :34:20.and we will not do it. The angry part of me said,
:34:21. > :34:23.'I would never sit down'. The pragmatic part of me
:34:24. > :34:27.of course would have done so had I thought there was going to be an
:34:28. > :34:31.of course would have done so had I would carry the process forward.
:34:32. > :34:32.of course would have done so had I The government's chief point of
:34:33. > :34:35.contact to establish whether the IRA The government's chief point of
:34:36. > :34:43.was seriously interested in calling a ceasefire was Martin McGuinness.
:34:44. > :34:46.Did you believe Martin McGuinness was a member of the IRA's Army
:34:47. > :34:50.Council? Yes, I did.
:34:51. > :34:53.If he couldn't deliver the IRA, then there would have been
:34:54. > :34:56.no point in talking to him. Were you at the time
:34:57. > :34:58.of the negotiations on the IRA's Army Council?
:34:59. > :35:02.No. But I was obviously someone who was
:35:03. > :35:05.trusted by the IRA leadership, and...
:35:06. > :35:09.Weren't you part of it? If you remember...
:35:10. > :35:13.No, I wasn't part of it at the time. For me anyway,
:35:14. > :35:20.it's irrelevant what status the British government thought I had
:35:21. > :35:21.in regard to negotiations. It was clear that because there was
:35:22. > :35:42.a military stalemate And a political stalemate also, to
:35:43. > :35:46.us, as the leadership of Irish Republicanism, somebody had to break
:35:47. > :35:53.the vicious cycle of conflict. On the 31st of August 1994, the IRA
:35:54. > :35:58.declared its historic ceasefire, ending a campaign that had resulted
:35:59. > :36:00.in the deaths of 1,800 people. It was probably one
:36:01. > :36:08.of the most challenging things I've ever been involved in in my life,
:36:09. > :36:12.but it was hugely important. In all sincerity, we offer, to
:36:13. > :36:20.the loved ones of all innocent victims of the last
:36:21. > :36:26.25 years, abject and true remorse. Seven weeks later,
:36:27. > :36:28.on the 13th October, Loyalist paramilitaries declared
:36:29. > :36:36.an equally historic ceasefire. Their campaign had been responsible
:36:37. > :36:38.for nearly 1,000 deaths. Whenever we got to
:36:39. > :36:42.a ceasefire stage it opened up a whole new vista and we could all
:36:43. > :36:46.see the world in a different way. It gave a great boost to the belief
:36:47. > :36:49.in many people's minds that there was a deal that could be done.
:36:50. > :36:55.Many doubted it, but then there was a glimmer of hope.
:36:56. > :37:00.The ceasefires laid the foundations for talks, now involving the Irish
:37:01. > :37:04.government, but John Major was only able to take them so far.
:37:05. > :37:13.It was left to his successor, Tony Blair, to finish
:37:14. > :37:16.the task three years later. From the beginning, Northern Ireland
:37:17. > :37:19.was something I wanted to put at the centre of what we did.
:37:20. > :37:25.He knew from the outset he would have to
:37:26. > :37:27.entice Unionists into negotiations. It's always important to
:37:28. > :37:31.try to talk, and then what matters is what you say.
:37:32. > :37:36.The new Prime Minister embarked on a bold charm offensive.
:37:37. > :37:39.The Prime Minister would like to speak to you.
:37:40. > :37:43.Thank you very much indeed. My agenda is not a United Ireland.
:37:44. > :37:48.Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom as long
:37:49. > :37:51.as the majority here wish. Moderate Unionists accepted
:37:52. > :37:53.Mr Blair's offer. Reluctantly,
:37:54. > :37:59.they accepted Republicans would need to be at the table too.
:38:00. > :38:02.The snag is that in order to bring them in, you had to bring in the
:38:03. > :38:05.people they regarded as the leaders who are not such nice people to have
:38:06. > :38:12.there but the overall objective of including people was right.
:38:13. > :38:15.At Good Friday the Republican movement, Sinn Fein, embraced
:38:16. > :38:17.Unionism, embraced Loyalism. That was the key to Good Friday,
:38:18. > :38:20.wasn't it? That is of course one
:38:21. > :38:24.of the key differences and we developed a working relationship
:38:25. > :38:28.and we resolved problems. In a momentous step for a
:38:29. > :38:31.British Prime Minister, Tony Blair invited Gerry Adams
:38:32. > :38:38.and Martin McGuinness to take part in inclusive, face to face talks.
:38:39. > :38:44.You've got to be prepared at a certain point to say I'm going
:38:45. > :38:46.to risk everything for peace. Did you believe that
:38:47. > :38:49.Martin McGuinness was on the IRA's Army Council?
:38:50. > :38:54.I always thought the IRA and Sinn Fein as two sides to the same
:38:55. > :38:58.coin, if I'm honest about it. So the answer is yes?
:38:59. > :39:04.As far as I was concerned, I was talking to the Republican movement
:39:05. > :39:06.when I was talking to them. If I hadn't met Adams
:39:07. > :39:11.and McGuinness, if I hadn't been able to sit in front of them and see
:39:12. > :39:15.them and you know feel what type of people they were and where they were
:39:16. > :39:18.coming from, if I hadn't been able to have that personal engagement, I
:39:19. > :39:24.don't think we could ever have put this together.
:39:25. > :39:29.An historic agreement for peace in Northern Ireland has been reached
:39:30. > :39:34.within the past few minutes. After much burning of midnight oil,
:39:35. > :39:37.a settlement was reached. APPLAUSE
:39:38. > :39:43.The Good Friday Agreement in 1998 paved the road from war to peace.
:39:44. > :39:47.But first the DUP had to be coaxed into the tent.
:39:48. > :39:56.Given Ian Paisley's track record, the omens did not look good.
:39:57. > :40:00.Ulster is not for sale. For four decades,
:40:01. > :40:06.Ian Paisley was known as Dr No. But in a wondrous turnaround,
:40:07. > :40:09.Dr No was transformed into Dr Yes ? becoming First Minister
:40:10. > :40:20.and unbelievably sharing power with his sworn enemy, Martin McGuinness.
:40:21. > :40:23.If you had told me some time ago that I'd be standing here
:40:24. > :40:27.to take this office, I would have been totally unbelieving.
:40:28. > :40:33.How do you view the journey that Ian Paisley made?
:40:34. > :40:36.I was struck when Ian came out of hospital after his illness, that
:40:37. > :40:39.he had this sense and expressed it to me that he'd been through a
:40:40. > :40:43.near death experience, he'd survived and it should be for a purpose.
:40:44. > :40:50.And if the purpose was peace and that was God's will as it were,
:40:51. > :40:53.then he should do that. When it came to a point where he
:40:54. > :40:58.could see himself as the prime person in political life in the
:40:59. > :41:07.North of Ireland... The Prime Minister?
:41:08. > :41:09....well, essentially that, he couldn't, he couldn't refuse.
:41:10. > :41:15.Never, never, never became yes, please and quick.
:41:16. > :41:17.People say it's terrible you've left the place in charge of the extremes.
:41:18. > :41:20.But the interesting thing about extremes is once they're
:41:21. > :41:23.in power, it's very difficult to be extreme when you're worrying
:41:24. > :41:25.about water rates and education - it's more difficult to be extreme
:41:26. > :41:28.than when you're waving a gun. In 2007, Ian Paisley and
:41:29. > :41:30.Martin McGuinness joined forces as First and Deputy First Minister
:41:31. > :41:37.- the triumph of the extremes at the expense of the moderates.
:41:38. > :41:42.Two men who've taken a leap of faith out of the past and into the future.
:41:43. > :41:46.SDLP leader John Hume and Ulster Unionist leader, David Trimble,
:41:47. > :41:50.were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for their efforts as peacemakers.
:41:51. > :41:56.But their respective parties were the greatest political casualties
:41:57. > :41:59.of the war. Is it hurtful?
:42:00. > :42:06.Oh very much, very much when you look at what we
:42:07. > :42:11.gave up, that we sacrificed to get peace, to get an end to killing.
:42:12. > :42:14.I find it hurtful, let's put it that way.
:42:15. > :42:21.Do you feel that you've been marginalised and eclipsed
:42:22. > :42:25.by the DUP? It could've been better.
:42:26. > :42:27.It may very well be. Maybe there were misjudgements that I made,
:42:28. > :42:30.there were misjudgements the SDLP made. But I'm not going to say it
:42:31. > :42:33.wasn't worth it. Seeing Sinn Fein in power
:42:34. > :42:36.at Stormont brings home to me an unpalatable truth.
:42:37. > :42:45.It's there because voters put it there - the
:42:46. > :42:48.ultimate triumph of the Ballot Box. But it was the Armalite that paved
:42:49. > :42:52.the way by breaking the mould of the Unionist state.
:42:53. > :42:56.Violence paid, didn't it? Isn't that one of the lessons
:42:57. > :42:58.however unpalatable that may be... Well, I mean...
:42:59. > :43:01.Isn't that a fact? You use the term violence; it's a
:43:02. > :43:07.very pejorative term. Well, it's about killing people.
:43:08. > :43:10.Yeah. Injuring people.
:43:11. > :43:12.That's what violence is. That's
:43:13. > :43:14.the campaign resulted in. Yes, that's what the war resulted
:43:15. > :43:17.in. It would've been better that there was no war.
:43:18. > :43:21.But, you show me anywhere in the world where people have won either
:43:22. > :43:25.a modicum of decency and rights, or indeed in terms of colonial wars,
:43:26. > :43:35.won independence, that it didn't happen after bloodletting.
:43:36. > :43:41.What did Loyalist violence achieve? It prevented a united Ireland.
:43:42. > :43:45.Why do you say that? Because we don't have one.
:43:46. > :43:50.Violence was not the only thing but it was one of the things that
:43:51. > :43:53.actually prevented it. I think violence probably does work.
:43:54. > :43:56.It may not work quickly and it may not be seen to be working
:43:57. > :43:58.quickly, but in the long run one has to look back
:43:59. > :44:18.and say, "Yes, it ? it did work". What's the current state
:44:19. > :44:21.of your relationship with the deputy First Minister?
:44:22. > :44:29.No change, not an inch and no surrender.
:44:30. > :44:32.Whenever Ian Paisley and I went into government together Ian said to
:44:33. > :44:34.me, "You know, Martin, we can rule ourselves.
:44:35. > :44:37.We don't need these people coming over from England, telling us what
:44:38. > :44:46.to do", and for me, that was common ground that we could all stand on.
:44:47. > :44:48.Don't be nervous about the wasp. Martin McGuinness has potentially
:44:49. > :44:52.more dangerous things to worry about ? not least small groups
:44:53. > :44:58.of armed republican dissidents, dismissive of the peace
:44:59. > :45:01.and determined to carry on the war. Peace has arrived.
:45:02. > :45:04.There are still people who are opposed to it, and they're small and
:45:05. > :45:12.they're unrepresentative, and they have no prospect of reversing the
:45:13. > :45:19.important change that has happened. We gather today to remember our true
:45:20. > :45:21.friend and comrade Brendan Hughes. Disaffected republicans
:45:22. > :45:29.believe Sinn Fein has abandoned its Holy Grail of a united Ireland.
:45:30. > :45:32.Their leaders dressed up in white ties and went to Buckingham Palace
:45:33. > :45:35.to have dinner with the British Queen, whose name is on every single
:45:36. > :45:42.charge sheet brought against us which consigned us to the prisons.
:45:43. > :45:47.Who won the war? The British.
:45:48. > :45:49.We lost. We just didn't get our
:45:50. > :45:57.United Ireland and now we are pretending it wasn't about freedom
:45:58. > :46:01.that it was really about equality. The IRA are too clever to tell
:46:02. > :46:05.the full truth of what was actually negotiated
:46:06. > :46:08.and Unionists are just too stupid to recognise the enormity of what
:46:09. > :46:21.they have achieved in bringing the IRA to a negotiated settlement
:46:22. > :46:26.which accepts the six county state. Our position is clear and it
:46:27. > :46:34.will never, never never change. Don't go my friends.
:46:35. > :46:37.We will lead you to the Republic. Do you believe that one day
:46:38. > :46:40.there will be a United Ireland? I've never been as convinced
:46:41. > :46:44.of anything in my life that at some stage in the future there
:46:45. > :46:48.will be a reunified Ireland. Absolutely.
:46:49. > :46:51.The IRA has not achieved that, isn't that why you republicans and former
:46:52. > :46:59.IRA volunteers are now rewriting history by claiming that the IRA was
:47:00. > :47:03.fighting for equality which you've achieved and that's a substitute for
:47:04. > :47:11.fighting for the IRA's real goal which is the reunification
:47:12. > :47:14.of Ireland which you haven't got? The IRA were fighting to bring
:47:15. > :47:18.about the equality, yes, but also the reunification of Ireland.
:47:19. > :47:33.I'm still fighting for that, but I'm fighting for that politically.
:47:34. > :47:36.This is a sight I thought I would never see.
:47:37. > :47:45.Little boys in front of Belfast City Hall playing the
:47:46. > :47:50.Irish National game of Hurling. It's another sign that Irish culture
:47:51. > :47:57.and identity are now part of what was once a Unionist state.
:47:58. > :48:00.Who won the war? Well the struggle isn't over.
:48:01. > :48:04.I believe we will get a united Ireland.
:48:05. > :48:09.I believe it has to be a united Ireland in
:48:10. > :48:12.which Unionism feels secure. I'm afraid Gerry's day is over.
:48:13. > :48:14.He's not going to get his united Ireland.
:48:15. > :48:16.It's just not going to happen. Unquestionably we have come out with
:48:17. > :48:20.our objectives intact but that isn't always
:48:21. > :48:22.the way it is seen on the ground. Unionists are capable
:48:23. > :48:25.of extracting defeat from the jaws of victory, and nationalists and
:48:26. > :48:35.republicans are capable of gaining victory from the jaws of defeat.
:48:36. > :48:40.For years Belfast City Hall was the bastion of Unionism.
:48:41. > :48:42.In 1912 nearly half a million Protestants signed
:48:43. > :48:46.a covenant there in which they swore to maintain the Union.
:48:47. > :48:52.And for years the Union flag flew above on just
:48:53. > :48:55.about every day of the year. But all that has changed too.
:48:56. > :48:59.The flag can only be flown on designated days
:49:00. > :49:10.and that's a bone of huge contention within the Protestant,
:49:11. > :49:12.Unionist and loyalist community. Since that decision was taken
:49:13. > :49:21.in 2012, there've been ongoing street protests.
:49:22. > :49:28.There are also protests on a different cultural issue.
:49:29. > :49:31.Parades. The flashpoint is a volatile
:49:32. > :49:36.interface in north Belfast where loyalists have been protesting
:49:37. > :49:37.nightly for more than a year. They're angry
:49:38. > :49:42.at restrictions placed on where they can march on the 12th of July.
:49:43. > :49:58.Nearby Catholic residents say the parade is triumphalist
:49:59. > :49:59.and sectarian. When I started covering
:50:00. > :50:05.the conflict 42 years ago were top dogs.
:50:06. > :50:12.They're no longer top dogs and they feel that.
:50:13. > :50:17.For the past two years there've been violent riots on the day
:50:18. > :50:20.the march was due to take place. This year tensions were running
:50:21. > :50:25.high because restrictions had been placed on the march once again.
:50:26. > :50:29.The more they attack our heritage and traditions,
:50:30. > :50:35.the stronger our response will be. Let them home.
:50:36. > :50:38.The war has changed in how it's fought but it's still
:50:39. > :50:41.a war and still going on. The IRA had a strategy,
:50:42. > :50:45.they wanted the Brits out. Now unfortunately the Brits that
:50:46. > :50:48.they talk about is me, is not the British apparatus because, you know,
:50:49. > :50:50.that has all been taken away, but we're still here and that's
:50:51. > :50:52.that has all been taken away, but still have the republican
:50:53. > :50:56.engaging in a cultural war and trying to, you know, take away
:50:57. > :51:04.what vestige of British-ness is left, and that includes us.
:51:05. > :51:07.You need to grow a set. You need to grow a set of
:51:08. > :51:09.Nothing... but you need to tell
:51:10. > :51:15.Nothing... that he sold us out.
:51:16. > :51:20.He has sold us out. We've been sold down the river.
:51:21. > :51:23.There is real bitterness and resentment in significant
:51:24. > :51:27.sections of the loyalist community. Can you understand that?
:51:28. > :51:30.Oh, I do understand it. On many occasions you can see that
:51:31. > :51:33.there has been a pandering to Sinn Fein.
:51:34. > :51:36.The reality, of course, is that the union is safe
:51:37. > :51:41.but there isn't the same degree of understanding of the Protestant
:51:42. > :51:43.Unionist and loyalist position. Whether it's on flags,
:51:44. > :51:47.whether it's on parades or whether it's on other issues of identity.
:51:48. > :51:50.whether it's on parades or whether This parade today reminds me of
:51:51. > :51:59.the parades I watched in the early 1970s but with one big difference.
:52:00. > :52:02.The parades I saw then were by Catholics, nationalists
:52:03. > :52:08.and republicans who were protesting about what they regarded as their
:52:09. > :52:12.status as second class citizens. The irony is that
:52:13. > :52:16.the loyalists who are marching today, their bands, their supporters
:52:17. > :52:19.now regard themselves as second class citizens
:52:20. > :52:23.now regard themselves a similarity but a huge difference.
:52:24. > :52:32.Things seem to have gone full circle.
:52:33. > :52:34.In the end this year's parade passed off without incident,
:52:35. > :52:44.the welcome fruit of protracted negotiations behind the scenes.
:52:45. > :52:47.I hope there will be a recognition that politics must be
:52:48. > :52:50.seen to work to ensure that those who would advocate violence don't
:52:51. > :52:53.get any basis upon which they can argue that case and articulate it to
:52:54. > :52:57.the wider community. This year's agreement over
:52:58. > :52:59.the sensitive parade is an encouraging sign that dialogue
:53:00. > :53:03.is the key to peace - just as dialogue produced the ceasefires
:53:04. > :53:08.and brought the conflict to an end. Who won the war?
:53:09. > :53:11.No one won the war. The British and the Unionists were
:53:12. > :53:14.never going to be bombed out of the United Kingdom, and we were
:53:15. > :53:19.never going to be able by military force to destroy the Republicans.
:53:20. > :53:21.So no one won. On
:53:22. > :53:30.the other hand I honestly do believe that everyone has won the peace.
:53:31. > :53:34.It's been an exemplary journey in many ways and when one looks at
:53:35. > :53:37.other parts of the world where the conflict seems irresolvable, one can
:53:38. > :53:39.realise that it is possible to bring together those who seem implacably
:53:40. > :53:46.opposed to one another for ideological reasons. And it is
:53:47. > :53:57.a gift of human nature that that is possible.
:53:58. > :54:10.But the price for everyone - young and old - has been impossibly high.
:54:11. > :54:15.Try and get up quicker. Forty years ago I made a film about
:54:16. > :54:18.Divis flats here in west Belfast. That's all that's left
:54:19. > :54:21.of the flats today. It used to be a death trap
:54:22. > :54:24.for the British army who used Divis as a lookout post.
:54:25. > :54:28.I remember interviewing a group of children who lived there.
:54:29. > :54:33.The memory of one has always haunted me.
:54:34. > :54:37.His name was Sean. He had the initials IRA tattooed
:54:38. > :54:39.on his knuckles. Sean, how do you get
:54:40. > :54:41.on with the soldiers? Don't like them.
:54:42. > :54:44.Never will like them. When I grow up I'm going
:54:45. > :54:46.to fight against them. And I often wondered what happened
:54:47. > :54:50.to Sean because of what his aspirations were.
:54:51. > :54:58.This year I finally tracked him down.
:54:59. > :55:03.He's now 52. Good to see you.
:55:04. > :55:12.It's been a long time. 40 years.
:55:13. > :55:15.You haven't changed a bit Peter. Thirteen years after I interviewed
:55:16. > :55:20.Sean, he was sentenced to life for the murder of a British soldier.
:55:21. > :55:36.This is a clip in which I interviewed you all those years ago.
:55:37. > :55:45.I'm going to fight for my country. And die for it.
:55:46. > :55:51.If I were to interview some children about the same age as you were when
:55:52. > :55:57.I interviewed you 40 years ago and one of those children said to me now
:55:58. > :56:02.that he wanted to fight and die for Ireland, what would you say to him?
:56:03. > :56:05.I would advise him to forget it, because I know a lot
:56:06. > :56:08.of people who died, and they thought they were fighting
:56:09. > :56:19.and dying for their country, but it never worked out that way.
:56:20. > :56:21.It never worked out. What did IRA violence achieve
:56:22. > :56:26.in their so-called war? They're running Stormont.
:56:27. > :56:29.But there's no united Ireland? No, but we'll get there.
:56:30. > :56:38.I'm sure we will. Why are you so confident?
:56:39. > :56:44.I've every faith in Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.
:56:45. > :56:47.Total faith in them. The tragedy is that generations
:56:48. > :56:50.of children have been victims of a conflict by
:56:51. > :57:05.which they were conditioned ? some to become killers in the name
:57:06. > :57:16.of causes that fuelled the war. So what's my conclusion?
:57:17. > :57:21.Who really did win the war? Viewed through the prism
:57:22. > :57:24.of the present, it's clear that the British and
:57:25. > :57:27.the Unionists won because the union is secure and the IRA is no more.
:57:28. > :57:31.But nobody knows what the future may hold.
:57:32. > :57:34.The unimaginable has already happened with Martin McGuinness up
:57:35. > :57:41.there at Stormont as deputy first minister and dining
:57:42. > :57:44.at Windsor Castle with the Queen. I wouldn't be surprised if
:57:45. > :57:51.at some stage in the long years ahead a united Ireland did emerge.
:57:52. > :57:58.But the danger is that people may forget
:57:59. > :58:06.what we've all been through - a past that the young know little
:58:07. > :58:09.about. The memories of that past may help ensure that we
:58:10. > :58:17.never go through it again.