:00:00. > :00:00.investigate allegations that the country's child protection
:00:00. > :00:21.Down the road to a tiny village came at power that tore a young family
:00:22. > :00:27.apart. I saw two black cars and won't continue driving on the main
:00:28. > :00:33.road and one came on our farm. They lost four of their children and then
:00:34. > :00:38.the fifth. I told Marius said they were going to take the children and
:00:39. > :00:43.there was nothing I could do. This is Norway, proud of its record in
:00:44. > :00:50.protecting children, but now accused of campaigners abroad and at home of
:00:51. > :00:58.a brutal campaign of taking babies into care without any reason. Not
:00:59. > :01:04.one single bad case and it is a simple with bad cases all the time.
:01:05. > :01:08.Norway's child protection services says it does all it can to keep
:01:09. > :01:15.families together. We don't have any self interest in taking the children
:01:16. > :01:17.with us. But parents battling the state believe all the odds are
:01:18. > :01:23.stacked against them in a system that has gone mad. They will win
:01:24. > :01:25.just to win and they hate to lose and be proven wrong because no one
:01:26. > :01:56.can be wrong. It is
:01:57. > :01:59.a house that had five children. Their father plays one of his
:02:00. > :02:35.favourite songs - not to entertain For news if he and his wife will
:02:36. > :02:40.ever get them back. Ruse has been at the police station again. Trying
:02:41. > :02:47.desperately to convince the authorities that she and Marius are
:02:48. > :02:56.good player -- parents. Blast out was three hours -- last night. I
:02:57. > :03:01.knew what the kids had said to the child protection services and to the
:03:02. > :03:04.police and I hope that they believe me. But it is hoped against hope.
:03:05. > :03:07.Their two girls aged eight and ten, their two boys aged two
:03:08. > :03:11.and five and their baby were taken away in November.
:03:12. > :03:17.And Ruth and Marius's world fell apart.
:03:18. > :03:19.I was waiting for the girls to come home from school.
:03:20. > :03:27.And it passed ten or 15 minutes and they didn't come.
:03:28. > :03:37.I saw it came, two black cars, one continued driving on the main
:03:38. > :03:44.Inside the car was a child protection officer.
:03:45. > :03:46.She said the two girls had been taken away in
:03:47. > :03:53.the other black car and two older boys were being taken away too.
:03:54. > :04:01.She said I had to come to the police station for interrogation. I was
:04:02. > :04:06.shocked and I asked what was going on and she did not want to answer
:04:07. > :04:13.that. And she said that she had my two girls and that she wanted to
:04:14. > :04:16.take care of the boys while I was at the interrogation. I said it is not
:04:17. > :04:28.necessary because they can stay with my mother and she can watch them.
:04:29. > :04:32.And then I understood it was very serious. For children gone in one
:04:33. > :04:42.day, they still have the baby. They still had the baby,
:04:43. > :04:45.but not for much longer. It was the second day in the evening
:04:46. > :04:48.we saw two cars driving here and two black cars again and I said,
:04:49. > :04:52.they have brought the kids home. Were you excited, you got really
:04:53. > :04:55.excited when you saw those cars? Then I saw four policemen
:04:56. > :04:58.coming out of the car. I told Marius, I think they're
:04:59. > :05:06.going to take the baby. So the baby just disappeared down
:05:07. > :05:12.the road. Yes. And then we found they drove three and a half hours.
:05:13. > :05:17.With the baby they drove that night to Bergen. They wrote that the baby
:05:18. > :05:24.cried the 30 minutes and they watched the baby cry on the road.
:05:25. > :05:30.Marius and Ruth thought this while Dali was an ideal place to bring up
:05:31. > :05:34.the family. But even here there are rules and something one of the
:05:35. > :05:39.children said first alerted the authorities that Marius and Ruth
:05:40. > :05:49.might be breaking the law. In Norway it forbids any corporal punishment.
:05:50. > :05:51.We were questioned about violence in the
:05:52. > :05:54.We admitted spanking the kids, but not...
:05:55. > :05:58.Not every time when they would do something bad.
:05:59. > :06:01.They didn't find any physical marks or anything like that when they had
:06:02. > :06:13.It's very clear until the smallest detail.
:06:14. > :06:18.It is not allowed for any physical correction.
:06:19. > :06:20.Their lawyers wouldn't let me ask any more questions,
:06:21. > :06:22.because they're still under investigation and the authorities
:06:23. > :06:25.aren't allowed to discuss this or any other individual case to protect
:06:26. > :06:32.Beginning on November 16th when the Norwegian authority for
:06:33. > :06:40.child protection, the Barnevernet, had taken away the five children...
:06:41. > :06:43.Claims that Marius and Ruth's kids and hundreds of others have been
:06:44. > :06:48.taken without reason have triggered demonstrations all over the world.
:06:49. > :06:51.Even if the protestors can't know all the facts.
:06:52. > :06:55.The campaign's strong abroad, because Marius is an immigrant
:06:56. > :06:57.from Romania and the couple belonged to an evangelical Christian
:06:58. > :07:10.But in Norway today, there are solid members of the establishment who
:07:11. > :07:30.also think the country's child protection system is out of control.
:07:31. > :07:33.Ingla is head of state archive in the city of Bergen.
:07:34. > :07:35.I grew up believing that the Norwegian system was the best
:07:36. > :07:45.Appointed personally by the king to guard thousands of documents. But
:07:46. > :07:52.now his faith in the system is badly shaken.
:07:53. > :07:54.I grew up believing that the Norwegian system was the best
:07:55. > :07:58.The UN are stating that all the time.
:07:59. > :08:00.Then suddenly I discovered that this cannot be the case,
:08:01. > :08:03.and that was because of things that happened in my own family.
:08:04. > :08:06.Because of what happened to this little girl, his grand daughter, who
:08:07. > :08:13.The Norwegian child protection service known as Barnevernet said
:08:14. > :08:22.But that is not how it looked to Ingla.
:08:23. > :08:30.So this was the passive, non-sounding child.
:08:31. > :08:32.How long is this before she was taken?
:08:33. > :08:36.This is in the middle of November, so this is is basically two months
:08:37. > :08:42.She was put into emergency fostering, because the child
:08:43. > :08:48.protection service said she was suffering serious psychological
:08:49. > :08:52.harm, because her parents count meet her emotional needs.
:08:53. > :08:56.They said her mother, who is from China and has now gone back there,
:08:57. > :08:59.was depressed and her father, Eric, was simple, though he has never been
:09:00. > :09:02.diagnosed with any condition, other than a slight lack of short-term
:09:03. > :09:09.I did everything, I changed nappies, I change nappies
:09:10. > :09:29.So what did you do to play with her? Just the small toys and at first we
:09:30. > :09:37.often played with hands so maybe a tickle on the tummy.
:09:38. > :09:39.Just days before child protection started their urgent assessment
:09:40. > :09:42.of the family, a doctor at the local health clinic found the little
:09:43. > :09:45.girl was developing normally, but Barnevernet said later that even if
:09:46. > :09:50.they had known that it wouldn't have affected their conclusions.
:09:51. > :09:56.And his anger at the court held up the report and they agreed.
:09:57. > :09:59.We put forward a huge report on my son's psychological strength
:10:00. > :10:04.They haven't mentioned that by one word.
:10:05. > :10:08.So they're closing their eyes and they say that we can only rely on
:10:09. > :10:23.the assessments that these persons working for Barnevernet have made.
:10:24. > :10:27.Him and his wife press the authorities to let them take care of
:10:28. > :10:31.the little girl but the child protection services said that would
:10:32. > :10:34.mean too much uncertainty as things have gone wrong with the child while
:10:35. > :10:39.the grandparents were living in the same house. Many parents have lost
:10:40. > :10:44.children I say that Norway is less keen on letting the children stay
:10:45. > :10:48.with other members of the family. But they say they are kept within
:10:49. > :11:07.the wider family. For the last five months Marius and
:11:08. > :11:12.Ruth have lost their five children have spent much of their lives on
:11:13. > :11:15.the road. It is been an eight hour round trip for them to get to
:11:16. > :11:19.supervise meetings with the baby and their little boys. The children were
:11:20. > :11:23.split up between three different sets of foster parents. The age of
:11:24. > :11:31.has this impression that we are going to die and that is why she
:11:32. > :11:36.cannot be with us. And the five-year-old was asking a lot for
:11:37. > :11:41.his father and asking why he cannot meet us both and he told us that he
:11:42. > :11:50.dreamt that we would be together. He had this dream that we would all be
:11:51. > :11:54.together. For now all that Marius and Ruth can do is wait between
:11:55. > :11:58.meetings in a friend 's flat. They say they have offered to fix what
:11:59. > :12:02.ever needs fixing as the way they behaved as parents but the chart
:12:03. > :12:09.protection did not even want to discuss reuniting the family. So
:12:10. > :12:16.this is the baby in mother's tummy. Yeah she tried several times to draw
:12:17. > :12:25.me in the tummy. He wanted it to be perfect. Said this is mum, dad and
:12:26. > :12:27.me. They write down their own account with a meeting with the
:12:28. > :12:33.children because they don't trust the social workers to report
:12:34. > :12:36.fairly. We don't know when we are fighting to show our feelings
:12:37. > :12:45.because for the bigger boys we're told to not show any sorrow because
:12:46. > :12:48.we make the kids sad. So we try to keep every tear inside and we keep
:12:49. > :12:52.them for ourselves until they are out of the door, at least.
:12:53. > :12:54.Of course, parents whose children are taken into care
:12:55. > :12:57.in any country are nearly always angry with the system, but I'm
:12:58. > :13:04.It devotes more resources and attention to children and their
:13:05. > :13:07.rights than almost any country on earth and child protection usually
:13:08. > :13:10.just provides guidance to parents with problems, it is only in what
:13:11. > :13:17.they regard as extreme cases they they seek care orders.
:13:18. > :13:23.I would like to get the other side of the story from the tiny authority
:13:24. > :13:32.that took their kids but they cannot talk about individual cases. We have
:13:33. > :13:37.approximately 110. I had to go to another part of Norway to meet HR
:13:38. > :13:40.protection officer. This man does not look like the kind of evil child
:13:41. > :13:47.snatcher that aggrieved parent to portray. As he says, they usually
:13:48. > :13:50.just provide guidance to Paris with problems and it is only with what
:13:51. > :13:56.they regard as extreme cases that they seek care orders. Our
:13:57. > :14:04.obligation is to keep the children out of danger. That is our main goal
:14:05. > :14:08.and it is to make that possible through the parents and with the
:14:09. > :14:12.parents and makes them able to give sufficient care for their children.
:14:13. > :14:15.If there is conflict between those two we have to take sides with the
:14:16. > :14:22.children. And you don't think you are too powerful? We often
:14:23. > :14:30.criticised because we're not doing enough or we're not doing it early
:14:31. > :14:37.enough and not enough children are giving sufficient time.
:14:38. > :14:44.The number of children taken rose by 70% in the recent five-year period.
:14:45. > :14:47.That was partly a reaction to the state's failure to protect and
:14:48. > :14:54.eight-year-old boy who was beaten to death by his stepfather in 2005. But
:14:55. > :15:00.if the authorities overreact? It is hard to work out whether Norway is
:15:01. > :15:03.better in its child protection practices. In England it would be
:15:04. > :15:09.very unusual for children to be taken away without parents being
:15:10. > :15:14.contacted first and without serious attempts immediately afterwards to
:15:15. > :15:20.engage with the family. Maybe the cases we're looking at our very
:15:21. > :15:22.unusual in Norway two, but Norwegian experts don't think so and that
:15:23. > :15:30.perhaps is the most significant point in the story. -- Norway too.
:15:31. > :15:37.Almost 150 Norwegian professionals, psychologists, or -- lawyers, have
:15:38. > :15:43.written a letter to say that the child protection services is a
:15:44. > :15:48.dysfunctional organisation that makes the seriousness calculation
:15:49. > :15:55.is, with serious consequences. This man is one of the authors of the
:15:56. > :15:59.open letters to the government. There is a lack of a human factor in
:16:00. > :16:05.the system. A lack of empathy and really providing an atmosphere so
:16:06. > :16:10.people can learn and can have a good discussion about what's happening.
:16:11. > :16:13.It is more like police interventions, more like we have to
:16:14. > :16:29.find out what's wrong with you. The vast majority of cases, where
:16:30. > :16:34.custody of the child is disputed, the state wins and parents lose, but
:16:35. > :16:37.not always. In this hospital in the far south of Norway there is a
:16:38. > :16:42.little girl who was taken away from her parents what they've now on back
:16:43. > :16:48.custody. Hello, nice to see you. Very nice to see you. This is your
:16:49. > :17:03.daughter? How long has she been in for, overnight? From 7pm until
:17:04. > :17:06.10pm. 15 hours? Yes. She has had almost 100% kidney failure from just
:17:07. > :17:11.after she was born. She could die at any time. Now she goes home for a
:17:12. > :17:18.few hours a day between dialysis sessions. But when child protection
:17:19. > :17:28.took over custody, she stayed in hospital round the clock. In the
:17:29. > :17:32.beginning it was like because they said that the doctors from hospital
:17:33. > :17:41.are scared to send her with us at home, that we would hurt her, we
:17:42. > :17:45.were a risk for her. Later, the child protection also said that she
:17:46. > :17:50.hadn't bonded with her mother or father, Robert. But the fact that
:17:51. > :17:56.she spends much time in hospital helped them to prove that it wasn't
:17:57. > :18:00.true. It meant that there were regular medical records confirming
:18:01. > :18:06.their story, that the court could refuse to consider. The mother, who
:18:07. > :18:08.is from the Czech Republic, and the father who is Norwegian save the
:18:09. > :18:13.child protection even accused them of saying they wanted their daughter
:18:14. > :18:17.to die, to spare her a lifetime of pain. But the records show that
:18:18. > :18:25.actually intervened more than once with suggestions that saved their
:18:26. > :18:33.daughter's life. We have a patient diary since every day she was born.
:18:34. > :18:38.We have every day written things from doctors and nurses. You wrote
:18:39. > :18:50.everything down? What did that show? It shows that the child protection
:18:51. > :18:56.is writing the opposite. In the diary it was written that she was
:18:57. > :19:00.smiling to see her parents. They never talk with anyone, have never
:19:01. > :19:11.been in our house, they've never seen us with Nikita. They saw the
:19:12. > :19:15.run on -- saw her on one occasion. This has fuelled the protest in the
:19:16. > :19:19.Czech Republic, protests backed by the state. So how does the Norwegian
:19:20. > :19:26.government feel about all this anger at home and abroad? We don't have
:19:27. > :19:29.many children in care, compared to other Nordic countries. So why there
:19:30. > :19:36.is so much attention to the Norwegian system? We don't have a
:19:37. > :19:38.good answer to that, but I understand that these cases raise a
:19:39. > :19:43.lot of feelings and emotions. There's lots of evidence that
:19:44. > :19:47.parents say isn't accepted. That's a concern we are looking into and
:19:48. > :19:50.that's why we want to look into a broad review of the child welfare
:19:51. > :19:57.cases to see what goes wrong and also learn from best practice. Good
:19:58. > :20:03.children be taken off parents -- could children be taken off parents
:20:04. > :20:07.simply because the parents had exercised mild corporal punishment?
:20:08. > :20:14.I can't comment. This could be several other aspects from one case,
:20:15. > :20:17.but it is important we have programmes helping parents, avoiding
:20:18. > :20:22.the use corporal punishment in their child's upbringing, and that's the
:20:23. > :20:27.answer to your question. But parents have to know the law and live by the
:20:28. > :20:40.law in Norway, regardless of background.
:20:41. > :20:51.Ruth and marry us' background is religious. -- Marius's. Bowral
:20:52. > :20:55.Pentecostals and he is Romanian. Their supporters think they are
:20:56. > :20:59.victims of discrimination and in Norway children with an immigrant
:21:00. > :21:05.parents are four times more likely to be removed by force from their
:21:06. > :21:16.families. Thank you. But there's no of knowing if cultural factors were
:21:17. > :21:21.present in this case. We can't be sure exactly what is going on in
:21:22. > :21:24.this family, but now Ruth's routine of taking bags of frozen breastmilk
:21:25. > :21:30.twice a week to the baby is finally over. Since we filmed with the
:21:31. > :21:36.couple, their baby son has now unexpectedly been returned to them.
:21:37. > :21:40.But they still fear that got a long fight ahead for the other four
:21:41. > :21:43.children and many more longer journeys to those agonisingly short
:21:44. > :21:48.meetings with them, laden with unspoken emotion. What do you think
:21:49. > :21:54.about before these meetings? We would like to explain to them their
:21:55. > :22:01.situation and convert them, but we cannot do that, since we cannot talk
:22:02. > :22:05.about the case. They say they are crying in the evenings, crying
:22:06. > :22:17.themselves to sleep. Of course I would like to... To convert them and
:22:18. > :22:20.tell them how to not be afraid. -- comfort them. But of course it is
:22:21. > :22:58.hard to do that when she is afraid herself.
:22:59. > :23:01.For many of us on Saturday it is not really going
:23:02. > :23:07.It will be quite chilly, with air coming all the way from the Arctic.
:23:08. > :23:11.By the early hours of Saturday morning there's even a chance of