:00:04. > :00:09.I wouldn't wish this. I wouldn't wish this on any teacher or any
:00:09. > :00:16.child. In classrooms around Wales, there
:00:16. > :00:18.are hidden dangers. Asbestos. younger someone is, the more
:00:18. > :00:22.concern there is that they are getting exposed to asbestos.
:00:22. > :00:24.Tonight we investigate the risks. You're aware there's this massive
:00:24. > :00:30.thing that should be taken seriously. There's not a lot of
:00:30. > :00:35.information about the extent of the risk.
:00:35. > :00:41.There is a lack of information. There has been nothing. Are we
:00:41. > :00:44.stuck with it? There's not enough money for us to do it. I just think
:00:44. > :00:46.it's such a massive problem. And we ask what's being done to protect
:00:46. > :00:49.our children's health. They've highlighted a problem in our
:00:49. > :00:59.schools. The minister has to decide what is the safe limit going to be?
:00:59. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:19.We cannot simply turn our back on Saying their goodbyes at the end of
:01:19. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :01:26.another school day. Staff at Cwmcarn High School go home, but
:01:26. > :01:29.they don't know when they'll be returning to teach. Earlier this
:01:29. > :01:34.month, tests for asbestos found levels that were a higher than
:01:34. > :01:40.normal level of asbestos at the school. Caerphilly council were
:01:40. > :01:44.advised to close it. That was Friday, October the 12th and the
:01:44. > :01:48.majority of the school site remains closed for the foreseeable future.
:01:48. > :01:53.Nicola Young has two children at the school. Morgan, who's doing her
:01:53. > :02:03.GCSEs, and 12-year-old Courtney. I just wish they would keep us
:02:03. > :02:06.
:02:06. > :02:08.informed. We send our children there, we expect health and safety
:02:08. > :02:11.to be a priority and education should come first as well. I don't
:02:11. > :02:15.like it that it's been disrupted. They should be sorting it out
:02:15. > :02:23.quicker than they are doing. The school's sudden closure came as
:02:23. > :02:26.a shock to parents. And a week on, there were still unanswered
:02:26. > :02:28.questions and some confusion. knew about the asbestos in
:02:28. > :02:38.September, because Courtney and Morgan had come home to say they
:02:38. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:43.weren't allowed in the RE block. We have always known there was
:02:43. > :02:46.asbestos in the school. But we didn't think it was harmful. The
:02:46. > :02:48.school said, it's OK we are getting it sorted. No letter from the
:02:48. > :02:52.school, just what they've told the children and what they've told us.
:02:52. > :02:55.We haven't been told what kind of asbestos is there. I don't know if
:02:55. > :02:57.they don't want to frighten the parents in case it is the worst
:02:57. > :02:59.case scenario, and that's why they're keeping it quiet. I don't
:02:59. > :03:01.know. This family, like hundreds of
:03:01. > :03:08.others in the community, are worried that their children's
:03:08. > :03:11.health may have been jeopardised. Before the dangers of asbestos were
:03:11. > :03:16.known, it was routinely used in schools built after the Second
:03:16. > :03:21.World War. It was used in walls, ceiling and floor tiles, and to
:03:21. > :03:27.insulate pipes and boilers. For decades there has been concern
:03:27. > :03:29.about the health risks associated with asbestos. It can cause a form
:03:29. > :03:39.of lung cancer called mesothelioma, which can take up to 40 years to
:03:39. > :03:40.
:03:40. > :03:45.develop after initial exposure. Today, schools in Wales are living
:03:45. > :03:49.with the legacy of the problem. We asked every local authority in
:03:49. > :03:56.Wales, how many schools contain asbestos. The answer? Around 1,500.
:03:56. > :03:58.That's 84% of our schools, higher than the UK average. The lack of
:03:58. > :04:01.action to tackle the problem was labelled a "national scandal"
:04:01. > :04:04.earlier this year, by a group of MPs and peers who looked at the
:04:04. > :04:13.issue. Robin Howie is a former government advisor. He's assessed
:04:13. > :04:15.asbestos risks for 40 years. He says it's often behaviour in
:04:16. > :04:25.schools that can make them vulnerable. Doors slamming are a
:04:26. > :04:33.
:04:33. > :04:35.very good way of releasing dust. And hooliganism. Punching will
:04:35. > :04:38.release a lot of fibres. A lot of insulation boards contained brown
:04:38. > :04:44.asbestos. Sticking a single drawing pin into a wall releases 5,000
:04:44. > :04:54.fibres into the air. Now it used to be common to pin display things on
:04:54. > :04:55.
:04:55. > :05:04.school walls. The Health and Safety Executive's Watch Committee said
:05:04. > :05:07.this was not be done. That legal duty is to assume everything has
:05:07. > :05:17.asbestos unless you know it doesn't. He argues that the current
:05:17. > :05:18.
:05:18. > :05:20.monitoring of asbestos in schools doesn't go far enough. The worry is
:05:20. > :05:30.that the current way we manage asbestos explicitly excludes
:05:30. > :05:33.
:05:33. > :05:35.measuring airborne fibre levels. If we're only looking at the materials
:05:35. > :05:37.which are present, not the fibre levels generated, we are looking at
:05:37. > :05:40.potential for causing harm, rather than assessing the risk which is
:05:40. > :05:42.the probability that harm will occur. At Cwmcarn school a series
:05:42. > :05:51.of air sampling tests revealed levels of up to 0.008 fibres per
:05:51. > :05:54.millilitre. Contractors working there said the levels were too high
:05:54. > :05:57.and advised the school to shut immediately. The official advice
:05:57. > :05:59.from the Health and Safety Executive is that asbestos, if in
:05:59. > :06:05.good condition and not disturbed, should not present a significant
:06:05. > :06:07.health risk. The HSE and Public Health Wales
:06:07. > :06:11.told us that whilst occupational exposure limits for workers exist,
:06:11. > :06:15.there is no accepted safe level for a school environment. In any event,
:06:15. > :06:16.routine air testing for asbestos isn't carried out in schools.
:06:16. > :06:22.That's something the biggest teachers union in Wales wants
:06:22. > :06:32.changed. The case of Cwmcarn has raised the
:06:32. > :06:38.
:06:38. > :06:41.profile. Given we know the cost of removing it is high, what we have
:06:41. > :06:44.to do is either remove it or to look at the process of regular
:06:44. > :06:46.inspection and testing air samples. That's step one. Step two is to
:06:46. > :06:56.ensure that the working environment and the learning environment is
:06:56. > :06:59.
:06:59. > :07:05.safe in those schools. 11 o'clock, Thursday morning.
:07:05. > :07:07.Morgan would normally be in school studying now. But a week after her
:07:07. > :07:17.school closed, and she's one of 900 pupils still off.
:07:17. > :07:20.
:07:20. > :07:25.Yeah, we are a bit worried. A lot of my friends are worried. It
:07:25. > :07:28.foodies airborne and could raise up in 40 years, when it affect our
:07:28. > :07:30.health? But we are basically worried about our GCSEs right now.
:07:30. > :07:32.Despite the lie-in, Morgan is trying to keep up with her
:07:32. > :07:36.schoolwork. Don't use Microsoft word, or you'll get marked down, or
:07:36. > :07:46.zero marks. She's joined by her friend Elliott to do some homework.
:07:46. > :07:51.Teachers are keeping in touch with them via e-mail and Twitter.
:07:51. > :07:54.You don't have teachers motivating you. But what they are doing on
:07:54. > :08:01.Twitter is very helpful. We would just be sat here doing nothing if
:08:01. > :08:08.they hadn't set up Twitters. I'm going back on Monday. But some
:08:08. > :08:18.resources will be limited. As for my sister, I don't know when she's
:08:18. > :08:26.going back. Probably November the 5th, but probably not our school,
:08:26. > :08:29.unless they've sorted out the asbestos in two weeks.
:08:29. > :08:39.Union leader Rex Philips is on his way to a meeting with Caerphilly
:08:39. > :08:41.
:08:42. > :08:44.council to discuss the closure. If asbestos is going to be removed,
:08:44. > :08:47.it is incumbent upon the local authority and school management to
:08:47. > :08:50.tell parents. He's worried that the long term health of staff and
:08:50. > :08:52.pupils at the school may have put at risk.
:08:52. > :08:56.Well, there are still a lot of outstanding issues concerning the
:08:56. > :09:06.threshold of testing for asbestos in schools. There's been a risk to
:09:06. > :09:09.
:09:09. > :09:13.members. There has been exposed to risk. We always tell our members to
:09:13. > :09:23.register that because no-one knows the long-term risk. They may want
:09:23. > :09:33.
:09:33. > :09:35.to claim compensation for being put in that position.
:09:35. > :09:38.Cwmcarn school closed after asbestos dust was found at higher
:09:38. > :09:40.than normal levels. It is brown asbestos which has been found at
:09:40. > :09:48.the school. Brown asbestos, amocite, is a material which is easily
:09:48. > :09:50.rendered air-born. So, it's very easy to generate harmful levels of
:09:50. > :09:58.exposure. Parents were told the risk of exposure to asbestos at the
:09:58. > :10:00.school is low. But Mr Howie says the risk of developing the
:10:00. > :10:10.mesothelioma might have increased slightly. The local councils are
:10:10. > :10:10.
:10:10. > :10:12.saying fibre levels are between 0.003 and 0.008 per mil. If we look
:10:12. > :10:20.at fibre levels, we can see risk to 11-year-olds of developing
:10:20. > :10:30.mesothelioma. The acceptable risk is one in a million, according to
:10:30. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:40.the Health and Safety Executive. That means the risk level in the
:10:40. > :10:50.
:10:50. > :10:54.school is 20 to 50 times higher Because of the potential dangers of
:10:54. > :11:00.asbestos, any removal or demolition work can be expensive.
:11:00. > :11:06.Removal always feels costly to the client. Because what do they get? A
:11:06. > :11:16.hole where asbestos used to be. The operation itself should be safe,
:11:16. > :11:16.
:11:16. > :11:18.but you don't want people around in case it isn't.
:11:18. > :11:20.At this specialist training centre, contractors are trained to deal
:11:20. > :11:26.with asbestos in buildings, including schools. We have a lot of
:11:26. > :11:28.buildings that went up in the 1960s and 1970s. There may be some
:11:28. > :11:34.asbestos in reasonable condition, but behind that may be services,
:11:34. > :11:38.electrics, plumbing, that may need servicing. And as a result it
:11:38. > :11:43.becomes essential to remove asbestos to get to those services.
:11:43. > :11:45.Since 2004 all schools have had to keep asbestos registers. Keeping
:11:45. > :11:50.them up to date and keeping buildings safe is a constant
:11:50. > :11:55.challenge. Peter Robinson wants schools and councils to do more to
:11:55. > :11:59.identify asbestos risks. The younger someone is, the more
:11:59. > :12:02.concern there is that they are getting exposed to asbestos. It is
:12:02. > :12:06.children who are being exposed today who have got maybe 70 years
:12:06. > :12:15.to live during which mesothelioma could develop. Everyone recognises
:12:15. > :12:17.there's too much there. That scale is enormous. We'd never be able to
:12:17. > :12:19.remove all asbestos from schools, the scale is enormous. It's
:12:19. > :12:26.believed best we put every effort into finding the asbestos and
:12:26. > :12:36.addressing those risks. The potential dangers have been
:12:36. > :12:37.
:12:37. > :12:39.known about for years. Education minister Leighton Andrews gave
:12:39. > :12:47.local councils 10 days to tell him how schools are managing asbestos
:12:48. > :12:53.and what they'd do in an emergency. The deadline for that information
:12:53. > :12:55.was last Friday. We asked the Welsh Government if
:12:55. > :13:02.they'd like to share that information with us, but they
:13:02. > :13:04.refused. The right for parents to know if there's asbestos in their
:13:04. > :13:14.schools, and how it's being managed, is the subject of a newly-launched
:13:14. > :13:15.
:13:15. > :13:22.campaign. The problem in Wales is that it has taken so long to
:13:22. > :13:26.recognise the problem and get to grips with it.
:13:26. > :13:32.He says he repeatedly warned the Welsh government to do something
:13:32. > :13:34.about it. I'm not in government, but it's for me to point out where
:13:34. > :13:43.problems are. It's for government to allay government's concerns, but
:13:43. > :13:45.this issue is growing in importance. Teaching unions in Wales also
:13:45. > :13:52.called on Leighton Andrews to order a comprehensive audit of asbestos
:13:52. > :13:54.in schools, three years ago. Previous education ministers have
:13:54. > :14:02.also been warned that hidden asbestos in crumbling Welsh schools
:14:02. > :14:04.could be a hazard. Some teachers who've spent a
:14:04. > :14:14.lifetime in school classrooms, fear they could be at risk of asbestos-
:14:14. > :14:14.
:14:14. > :14:20.related illnesses. There needs to be a policy of openness about this.
:14:21. > :14:23.Parents and teachers need to know of the dangers of asbestos.
:14:23. > :14:33.Carole Hagedorn had to retire early from teaching after she developed
:14:33. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:36.mesothelioma. I got the diagnosis of mesothelioma,
:14:36. > :14:42.which was quite devastating, because I'd never heard of it. I
:14:42. > :14:45.didn't know that it was caused by exposure to asbestos. And as a
:14:45. > :14:55.teacher, I had no reason to think I would contract an industrial
:14:55. > :14:55.
:14:55. > :15:04.disease. I'd only ever be teacher. It was shocking. When we asked
:15:04. > :15:07.about the prognosis, the doctor shrugged his shoulders.
:15:07. > :15:17.I found out on internet that the usual life span is between four and
:15:17. > :15:29.
:15:29. > :15:34.He can will is from Essex. spent over-thirties years teaching.
:15:34. > :15:39.We know that there was asbestos in several of the schools that I
:15:39. > :15:45.taught in. All mesothelioma cases are very difficult because there is
:15:45. > :15:53.a time-lag usually of at least 30 years between your exposure and
:15:53. > :16:02.then developing the disease. Mesothelioma can be caused either
:16:02. > :16:08.by a short, sharp exposure or buy it a chronic low-level exposure and
:16:08. > :16:12.these things are just very difficult to prove. When first
:16:13. > :16:18.diagnosed in 2008, Carole and her husband were told to expect the
:16:19. > :16:26.worst. If I wouldn't wish this on any teacher or any child. It is an
:16:26. > :16:32.extremely aggressive cancer. It usually kills within 18 months and
:16:32. > :16:40.it does so by crushing the long, which is of course extremely
:16:40. > :16:47.painful. The number of teachers dying from mesothelioma is
:16:47. > :16:57.relatively small. There have been 228 cases since 1980, with 140 in
:16:57. > :17:01.
:17:01. > :17:05.the last 10 years. The numbers are Back to school for some. 10 days
:17:05. > :17:15.after Cwmcarn High School Close, sixth-form pupils are returning to
:17:15. > :17:18.
:17:18. > :17:23.lessons. They are in any part of the school and affected by asbestos.
:17:23. > :17:30.Three days later and the Morgan and her friends in year 11 also going
:17:30. > :17:34.back to school. Morgan's sister Courtney and hundreds of other
:17:34. > :17:40.pupils are still off making the most of the unexpected holiday. It
:17:40. > :17:47.is really good because I get to hang out with my friends. Sometimes
:17:47. > :17:55.I do a bit of homework. She thinks, I'm not in school I can go out to
:17:55. > :17:59.play. Morgan does work. I am hoping it has not affected Courtney. It is
:17:59. > :18:05.OK in school doing the schoolwork because teachers are there. Send
:18:05. > :18:09.her home and ask her to sit at the computer is a hard job. It is not
:18:10. > :18:13.just Nicola who has concerns. I caught up with a group of mothers
:18:13. > :18:18.of children at Cwmcarn High School who are also worried about the
:18:18. > :18:22.asbestos at the school. You are aware that it is this massive thing
:18:22. > :18:27.that should be taken seriously. There is not a lot of information
:18:27. > :18:33.as to the extent of the risk. is no information how it led up to
:18:33. > :18:38.this point. We have no idea where it came to this point we had 900
:18:38. > :18:45.kids out of school. Today they are getting together ahead of a meeting
:18:45. > :18:51.at Caerphilly council. They are saying it will take over a year to
:18:51. > :18:54.remove the asbestos at a cost of �3 million. They are going back to
:18:54. > :18:58.Cwmcarn High School as soon as possible and the council will be in
:18:58. > :19:02.full support of that. That is what we want to hear. The parents will
:19:02. > :19:06.find out what the future holds for their school. They will demand
:19:06. > :19:12.answers for themselves and their children. Given the level of
:19:12. > :19:16.concern about a asbestos in schools in Wales among parents, experts and
:19:16. > :19:21.politicians, it is perhaps surprising that not one of the
:19:21. > :19:26.public bodies responsible for this area was prepared to be interviewed
:19:26. > :19:32.for this programme. Not the Welsh Local Government Association, not
:19:32. > :19:36.the Health and Safety Executive, more public health Wales. However,
:19:36. > :19:40.in a statement, public health Wales told us that based on asbestos
:19:40. > :19:47.level readings before the school was closed, it is advise the
:19:48. > :19:52.council that the risk to pupils and staff is low. The campaign to give
:19:52. > :20:00.parents more information about asbestos in schools has been backed
:20:00. > :20:07.by Monmouthshire County Council. It looks like we are into one of our
:20:07. > :20:11.new learning plazas. This is the reception.
:20:11. > :20:16.This new �7 million primary-school will open its doors to pupils for
:20:16. > :20:19.the first time next week. wonderful environment and this is
:20:19. > :20:25.different to the usual concept of schools because we do not have
:20:25. > :20:30.classrooms. Very flexible learning spaces. This building is completely
:20:30. > :20:34.free of asbestos, but that is not the case in 31 the counties. The
:20:34. > :20:41.council leader says effective monitoring is the key to keeping
:20:41. > :20:44.pupils and staff say. It is just important that we manage these
:20:44. > :20:49.hazards and are monitoring them constantly so that we can contain
:20:49. > :20:54.them. The reality is, if we want to take asbestos out of every school
:20:54. > :20:57.building up there will be enough money in this country to do it. How
:20:57. > :21:02.would you decant all of the children in all of our schools and
:21:02. > :21:07.teach them while you remove all this stuff? So you have to be
:21:07. > :21:13.sensible, take a sensible approach. You have to contain it, monitor it
:21:13. > :21:19.and manage it. The council has spent millions of grading schools.
:21:19. > :21:24.Getting rid of asbestos has been a priority. At this primary-school in
:21:24. > :21:28.Chepstow it has cost �3,000 just to get the asbestos out. We have had
:21:28. > :21:34.floor tiles all over the flaws which contained asbestos within
:21:34. > :21:39.them. Also, they take that stuck them to the floor also would have
:21:39. > :21:42.had it in them so that had to be removed. The council will soon
:21:43. > :21:48.publish details about which schools contain asbestos and it believes
:21:48. > :21:52.the public has a right to access that information. You can see the
:21:52. > :21:57.potential here for enormous alarm among parents everywhere who are
:21:57. > :22:01.saying, I don't want my child to go to a school where there is asbestos.
:22:01. > :22:05.I can understand why people might think that which is why there is a
:22:06. > :22:10.duty on us to reassure parents that we will take every step to make
:22:10. > :22:15.sure their children are safe. How many parents have done an asbestos
:22:15. > :22:19.assessment of their own house? And their own children live there every
:22:19. > :22:25.day. The reality is, I don't know what is in someone's hours. I do
:22:25. > :22:30.know what is in the school and how we are managing that and how we
:22:30. > :22:35.continue to manage that. I want to reassure all of the parents in my
:22:35. > :22:39.county that we are on the case. do they know how much it could cost
:22:39. > :22:45.to remove asbestos from all schools? If he said tomorrow we
:22:45. > :22:49.need to get rid of every ACM, I don't know what that would cost. I
:22:50. > :22:54.don't think there is enough money in Wales for us to do it. It is
:22:54. > :23:01.such a massive problem, that is why a robust management plans have to
:23:01. > :23:06.be in place for us to manage that risk. Almost year started their
:23:06. > :23:11.school improvement programme been less austere times. The fact is, if
:23:11. > :23:17.all the other schools had to be repaired or replaced, the cost
:23:17. > :23:22.would run into hundreds of millions of pounds. The Welsh government has
:23:22. > :23:27.a school building programme called a 21st century schools. Local
:23:27. > :23:31.councils say they want to spend �4.4 billion on school buildings
:23:31. > :23:36.over 15 years, but the government will only give them a third of what
:23:36. > :23:42.they need. There is a warning that as
:23:42. > :23:46.buildings deteriorate, so the risk from asbestos could increase.
:23:46. > :23:53.you have material in poor condition, if you have leaky roofs, what
:23:53. > :23:56.happens is the water comes in, it flows over the tops of a ceiling
:23:56. > :24:02.which is contaminated with asbestos fibres, that water will eventually
:24:02. > :24:09.come into the classroom. Once that water evaporates, the fibres can be
:24:09. > :24:13.airborne. Airborne fibres are what we are concerned about. 11 days
:24:13. > :24:17.after Cwmcarn High School it closed, parents are trying to find out what
:24:17. > :24:24.the council has decided to do about their children's education. The
:24:24. > :24:29.council has called a meeting. council has agreed to accommodate
:24:29. > :24:33.schools at the Ebbw Vale campus. We have approved the �1.5 million
:24:33. > :24:39.funding to support the move and is clearly demonstrate our commitment
:24:39. > :24:43.to resolve the issues and reduce disruption to the school.
:24:43. > :24:47.asbestos survey was carried out at the school in August and on
:24:47. > :24:51.September 12th, for risk assessment was ordered. The closure of four
:24:51. > :24:56.classrooms followed, but the school did not shut down for another four
:24:56. > :25:02.weeks. They put a time line up on the big screen. The Test started in
:25:02. > :25:08.August, it is the first time any of us has in the Far -- timeline. None
:25:08. > :25:11.of us were made aware of it. I put in a request last week to see
:25:12. > :25:15.whether there were any tests available for the children and was
:25:15. > :25:20.told that there wasn't. I think they should be something to give us
:25:20. > :25:26.some indication of what the implications are for the people
:25:26. > :25:30.involved and have been exposed. We need to know what is going on.
:25:30. > :25:39.health implications to our children past and present. We need our minds
:25:39. > :25:43.to be put to rest and to know, that is all we want. Carole Hagedorn is
:25:43. > :25:49.living with the legacy of asbestos, but she wants politicians to make
:25:49. > :25:56.sure that future generations of teachers and pupils don't suffer.
:25:56. > :26:03.You have to have a plan to get rid of asbestos eventually. Everywhere,
:26:03. > :26:07.because it is too dangerous to keep around. We know, from the figures,
:26:07. > :26:15.whereas in 1983 teachers per year died of mesothelioma, the numbers
:26:15. > :26:18.have now gone up to 16 teachers per year. My feeling is that
:26:18. > :26:28.essentially governments don't care all that much because it is not
:26:28. > :26:30.
:26:30. > :26:33.So, how has the was government performed in the big asbestos test?
:26:33. > :26:38.Of their dealing with it effectively? I'm sure you will
:26:38. > :26:43.speak to the minister. It is for him to say what he is doing and
:26:43. > :26:48.proposes to do. As far as I am concerned, their action has been
:26:48. > :26:54.laid back, lackadaisical, perhaps because if they deal with it there
:26:54. > :26:58.will be budgeting implications. The challenge for the minister is
:26:58. > :27:03.to decide what test is going to use to determine whether the working
:27:03. > :27:07.environment is safe. That is what the situation has done. They have
:27:07. > :27:11.raised the bar on this now, they have highlighted the problem in our
:27:11. > :27:19.schools and clearly the minister has to decide, what is the safe
:27:19. > :27:22.level going to be? Despite repeated requests, the Welsh government
:27:22. > :27:29.education minister, Leighton Andrews, has also declined to be
:27:29. > :27:33.interviewed for this programme. When pupils return from the half-
:27:33. > :27:36.term holiday, the vast majority of schools in Wales will still have an
:27:36. > :27:42.asbestos problem and the authorities still have the headache
:27:42. > :27:48.of how to deal with it. Concerns remain about our asbestos legacy.
:27:48. > :27:52.Because children who are exposed in primary school or earlier will not
:27:52. > :28:00.die from mesothelioma it until they are old age pensioners, it has lost
:28:00. > :28:05.the immediacy of the response. Monday, pupils at Cwmcarn High
:28:05. > :28:09.School will move temporarily to the newly built Ebbw Vale College.
:28:09. > :28:17.While parents like Nicola Young have been reassured, she still has
:28:17. > :28:21.worries about the future. We can't do nothing. In 10 years' time they