:00:14. > :00:20.This is Chris O'Neill. Earlier this month he pleaded guilty to two
:00:20. > :00:27.counts of fraud. He had promised to help a veterans of Wales. He was a
:00:27. > :00:31.charm. I deplore him for what he did. He got his hands on tens of
:00:31. > :00:37.thousands of pounds of public money, but within months, you do you most
:00:37. > :00:44.about. Lots of money was spent in Ladbrokes. An uncertain future for
:00:44. > :00:49.the people he was going to health. I came home a broken man. We ask
:00:49. > :00:54.how he got his hands on so much public money? I have to question if
:00:54. > :00:59.the procedures were in place and if they were managed? We speak to the
:00:59. > :01:09.council that allowed it to happen. We would like to speak to you about
:01:09. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:32.These men are veterans who survived years of conflict. It has left its
:01:32. > :01:38.mark. It was top. Anyone who says it is not to of is lying. No matter
:01:38. > :01:46.what you say, those days are really difficult. We worked on the borders,
:01:46. > :01:51.we worked in Londonderry. We saw quite a few sites that people do
:01:51. > :01:56.not want to see. Like thousands of veterans, their battles did not end
:01:56. > :02:00.when their service careers finished. They struggled with life on civvy
:02:00. > :02:05.street. It is the only Winnie become unemployed edge you have
:02:05. > :02:10.time to dwell, but the ramifications job up and bite you.
:02:10. > :02:17.Along came hope in the shape of Chris O'Neill, offering a home,
:02:17. > :02:21.Haven and Anglesey. He said he knew how it was to be damaged by
:02:21. > :02:27.conflict and set up Forces for Good, a social enterprise offering hope
:02:27. > :02:34.for the veterans. One person who trusted O'Neill was Kevin Gray, a
:02:34. > :02:39.former soldier. He had post- traumatic stress disorder in 2009.
:02:39. > :02:45.He said he was a Royal Military policeman, cert 15 years, served
:02:45. > :02:49.with 14 Intelligence that used to be in Northern Ireland. Everything
:02:49. > :02:54.he said was very plausible. Just the fact he was a military
:02:54. > :02:59.policeman, I trusted him. I thought he had only good intentions.
:02:59. > :03:04.Telling tales of his own military career, he convinced the veterans
:03:04. > :03:09.that he was really a force for good. One of the many convinced was a
:03:09. > :03:16.Billy. What they were doing was brilliant. They gave soldiers a
:03:16. > :03:26.chance to get back to life. Billy has been affected by his
:03:26. > :03:28.
:03:28. > :03:32.experiences in Northern Ireland. was ambushed. I was hit here. Eyes
:03:32. > :03:38.of the bullet mark behind by a year when I got back to the camp. That
:03:38. > :03:43.may be nervous. O'Neill started to develop the Forces for Good brand,
:03:43. > :03:49.reiterating that this was a cause for a veterans would help veterans.
:03:49. > :03:55.We worked together. There are no managers, he was a sergeant, he was
:03:56. > :04:01.a sergeant major, he was a private soldier, there was none of that. It
:04:01. > :04:11.was a team of lads. We all spoke and work together. We do things
:04:11. > :04:11.
:04:11. > :04:17.together. How did Chris O'Neill's plans failed so spectacularly? How
:04:17. > :04:21.did he end up convicted for fraud? We found another side to Chris
:04:21. > :04:27.O'Neill, a dark side, as I'd very much at odds with these boot
:04:27. > :04:32.talking campaigner. Chris O'Neill wedded to the Army as a young
:04:32. > :04:39.recruit in the 80s and served for five years. It is a good career
:04:39. > :04:42.path and a good experience. But you going with the rise open. This was
:04:42. > :04:48.him appearing on television spinning is the Oram about military
:04:48. > :04:57.past. -- spinning a yarn about military past. Nothing can prepare
:04:57. > :05:02.you for a military life. He was happy to talk about mental scars
:05:02. > :05:06.and about our veterans need help from organisations like this.
:05:06. > :05:12.call it the Queen of the resorts and it was through that O'Neill set
:05:13. > :05:17.up a hotel for veterans, Forces for Good was registered as a company.
:05:17. > :05:21.He had a business plan drawn up. The white government and Conwy
:05:21. > :05:30.Council were told that a member of the Royal Family was lined up as a
:05:30. > :05:34.patron. Forces for Good already existed as a completely separate
:05:34. > :05:39.organisations in England and three years ago, he hopes to emulate
:05:39. > :05:44.their success in North Wales. Can you tell us a little bit about
:05:44. > :05:54.Forces for Good and the working due in North Wales. Here he is at the
:05:54. > :05:55.
:05:55. > :05:59.health and well-being campaign. It was all spoof talk. It lies in the
:05:59. > :06:03.principle that a veteran will talk to a veteran, because I have been
:06:04. > :06:08.very you have been. Is there a model in North Wales that could be
:06:08. > :06:14.folded out across the rest of Wales? It is like everything else,
:06:14. > :06:17.it all comes down to finance and taking things forward. Tell us what
:06:18. > :06:27.you need and we make recommendations to the Government
:06:28. > :06:28.
:06:28. > :06:33.and they make the priorities. again standing next to Simon Weston
:06:33. > :06:38.at the Welsh Parliaments. There were five or six organisations at
:06:39. > :06:44.the time. He was listening to the rest of us speaking County picked
:06:44. > :06:49.up on that and embellished it. He was a confidence trickster. These
:06:49. > :06:56.people exist. Borneo began a publicity drive and started to
:06:56. > :07:00.lobby politicians. -- O'Neill began. He would speak to his social
:07:00. > :07:05.services, he would speak to his contacts in the Probation Service,
:07:05. > :07:10.the police service, he could talk the present round of the trees, to
:07:10. > :07:14.be honest. Elfyn Llwyd is a prominent campaigner for veterans
:07:14. > :07:20.and so knew that he would be useful and campaigned the MP that he could
:07:20. > :07:25.change lives. Well-intentioned, knowledgeable, he spoke about his
:07:25. > :07:32.time in the services. I had problems myself when I came had
:07:32. > :07:36.come alive problems, a readjustment problems. He was suffering from
:07:36. > :07:42.alcoholism, and the way in which she had to pull himself together
:07:42. > :07:47.and get back into mainstream life. I can empathise with a lot of these
:07:47. > :07:52.men. I respected him even more for the fact he would share his
:07:52. > :07:56.experience with others and do something to prevent others sliding
:07:56. > :08:01.into the dark as he was in. wasn't just politicians that he
:08:01. > :08:06.rubs shoulders with in his mission to further the endgame. He was in
:08:06. > :08:13.several meetings with some high- powered, ex-service people, people
:08:13. > :08:17.from the probation service, the whole group are people that we deal
:08:17. > :08:23.with in our committees in London. I do not think anybody suspected
:08:23. > :08:29.anything. Chris O'Neill, you are part of a big campaign? Yes, to
:08:29. > :08:34.raise awareness for veterans. he appeared on television speaking
:08:34. > :08:40.about veterans, I almost fell off the chair. I rang his ex-wife to
:08:40. > :08:45.say, Look who is on television axe back she would not believe it.
:08:45. > :08:50.Unfortunately, have to see it is true. Phil Rowe from Barmouth has
:08:50. > :08:55.known O'Neill for 12 years and saw a different side. What did you
:08:55. > :09:02.think you were watching? Apart from a total shock, what was he doing
:09:02. > :09:08.there?! He had gone from a bar manager in Barmouth to being on TV
:09:08. > :09:15.sitting with an MP, setting up this charity acts back I was absolutely
:09:15. > :09:23.amazed. O'Neill has been married to fill's cousin and Phil had given
:09:23. > :09:28.him a job. He had many facets, what you see is not what you get. He is
:09:28. > :09:33.convincing, smart, hopeful, well- mannered. But there was something
:09:33. > :09:39.going on in the background. According to Phil Roe, O'Neill had
:09:39. > :09:44.a chaotic lifestyle that left a trail of debt. He ran a security
:09:44. > :09:47.firm and the guys from the security firm, he ended up knocking on my
:09:47. > :09:55.cousin's door looking for money because he had not paid the wages.
:09:55. > :09:59.He ran a burglar alarm company adds that went the same way. All in all,
:09:59. > :10:04.he was full of enthusiasm, everything would be fine and right,
:10:04. > :10:14.but it's deteriorated into nothing with many being owed. Did he ever
:10:14. > :10:16.
:10:17. > :10:22.make his excess of anything in the But the man with the modest past
:10:22. > :10:26.came up with a grand plan in Llandudno. It was here on this
:10:26. > :10:33.quiet side-street close to the seafront that his gamble very
:10:33. > :10:38.nearly paid off. Two years ago, this was the Jenivore Hotel. It was
:10:38. > :10:42.here that he had a vision for creating jobs, opportunities and
:10:42. > :10:49.fresh hope for Army veterans batterer finding it difficult to
:10:49. > :10:55.cope on civvy street. Are to be a business plan, he comes insists the
:10:55. > :11:00.white government to hand over �125,000 to help set up the hotel
:11:00. > :11:05.project. -- he got the world's governments to handover. But money
:11:06. > :11:10.was to be administered with Conwy Council, but should setting up a
:11:10. > :11:16.business proposal, with Jacques? There were lots of things with this
:11:16. > :11:21.happening, so we should cross our fingers. Simon Denny is an expert
:11:21. > :11:25.on social enterprises and we showed in the business proposal. What kind
:11:25. > :11:29.of check-ups should take place? They should look at the
:11:29. > :11:33.organisation, the financial standing, they should expect that
:11:33. > :11:38.there are certain that bits of work done, it's check the premises, and
:11:38. > :11:44.also check the business record of the people running it. But they are
:11:44. > :11:51.capable of handling money? Capable, honest, and that it is a business,
:11:51. > :11:56.had a business people? Gris O'Neill won an award for voluntary work and
:11:56. > :11:59.his application contained the support of the local community
:11:59. > :12:03.safety partnership which was chaired by a Chief Superintendent
:12:03. > :12:08.of North Wales Police. The partnership is made up of a variety
:12:08. > :12:13.of agencies including the police, the local authority, the fire
:12:13. > :12:16.service and the probation service. Harry Fletcher from the National
:12:16. > :12:26.Association of Probation officers met O'Neill several times when he
:12:26. > :12:28.
:12:28. > :12:33.visited London looking for support. Between 2008 and 2011, I had to be
:12:33. > :12:38.no doubts at all and I believed that he sincerely wanted to assist
:12:38. > :12:43.and was actively trying to get together the funding. Why were
:12:43. > :12:53.professional people taking in by a conman with a colourful past?
:12:53. > :12:53.
:12:53. > :12:58.surprised that so many of us, the Government, the council, veterans,
:12:58. > :13:02.were all fooled into believing that he was a sincere man looking to
:13:02. > :13:06.help soldiers with the mental health issues, all of those
:13:06. > :13:11.including the, we were conned for several years. How did he manage to
:13:11. > :13:19.get so much support from the council, the Government, the police
:13:19. > :13:24.and the probation service? At the time I first met him in 2008, the
:13:24. > :13:28.problems that soldiers based in the justice system with mental health
:13:28. > :13:34.and homeless as, this was just emerging as a problem. There was a
:13:34. > :13:39.lot of press attention, money floating around, and I think all of
:13:39. > :13:43.the agencies were very, very eager to assist. But O'Neill was a
:13:43. > :13:48.convicted thief, admitting as much on film. We have this footage from
:13:48. > :13:58.several years ago where he blames alcohol for his downfall. That such
:13:58. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:24.a grip on me, that I would do So, what about the checks and
:14:24. > :14:34.balances that Stewart had been in place? It surprises me looking back,
:14:34. > :14:50.
:14:50. > :14:57.Where there are large pots of money available and mental health is such
:14:57. > :15:02.a difficult world to go into, only the professional should be able to
:15:02. > :15:07.go in. By his own admission, O'Neill is a man with an addictive
:15:07. > :15:13.personality, drawn to drink and gambling. This caused misery for
:15:13. > :15:20.his former life's family -- his former wife's family. He drove his
:15:20. > :15:25.ex-wife, his mother-in-law and father-in-law to misery. They never
:15:25. > :15:29.knew who was gained been knocking on the door. How surprised are you
:15:29. > :15:36.that Chris O'Neill has found himself and his predicament? I am
:15:36. > :15:40.now -- I'm more surprise with him getting him into this position
:15:40. > :15:44.would be Assembly. If you look at the video, you will notice that
:15:44. > :15:54.every time he has to think of anything in conversation, his eyes
:15:54. > :15:56.
:15:56. > :16:01.a rise to the top of his head. He has to think about what he is
:16:01. > :16:07.saying all the time. It is not natural. If somebody had come to
:16:07. > :16:14.you and said they were thinking of giving him a grant of �125,000,
:16:14. > :16:20.what would you have done? I would have laughed! With the Jenivore
:16:20. > :16:26.Hotel set up, O'Neill promised to employ it veterans are recovering
:16:26. > :16:30.from drink and drug problems. He also persuaded a woman to give him
:16:31. > :16:35.�30,000 from a divorce settlement. He promised her a job. For a while,
:16:35. > :16:38.the project work. But he was greedy. Once he had a guarantee that the
:16:38. > :16:45.money was definitely coming from the government, he did not waste
:16:45. > :16:50.any time spending it. There were the two special Japanese people
:16:50. > :16:58.carriers with personalised Forces for Good number plates. And then,
:16:58. > :17:03.what every veterans organisation knees, a speedboat. I went to pick
:17:03. > :17:07.it up with him, but thought was a rowboat. But he was a great big
:17:07. > :17:16.speedboat! I was starting to think that this guy was a secret
:17:16. > :17:20.millionaire because of the way he was splashing the cash around.
:17:20. > :17:23.O'Neill was the sole director of Forces for Good and held the purse
:17:23. > :17:31.strings. Professor Denny believes they should have been more than one
:17:31. > :17:35.director in charge. If he was saying he was expecting to have a
:17:35. > :17:39.turnover of six figures, you would have expected two or three people
:17:39. > :17:44.involved. There would be a strong case as to why only one person was
:17:44. > :17:51.needed. That implies they have all the business skills and a suitable
:17:51. > :17:56.track record. In this instance, we had a person who had alcohol
:17:56. > :18:01.problems, who had left the forces, we didn't have a job, he was living
:18:01. > :18:07.on benefits, and to had no track record in running any kind of
:18:07. > :18:12.business or any kind of charity or going concern. So, all in all, this
:18:12. > :18:17.candidate was a very poor candidate for public funding, it seems to me.
:18:17. > :18:23.So, even if a most cursory check had been undertaken, it is
:18:23. > :18:27.undertake -- it is astonishing that any money was given. Within a few
:18:27. > :18:33.days of Conwy Council paying out a grant to Forces for Good, Chris
:18:33. > :18:39.O'Neill transferred a substantial amount of it, nearly �70,000, into
:18:39. > :18:44.his personal account. He couldn't resist the temptation. He went on a
:18:44. > :18:50.gambling spree and ran up huge hotel bills, using money that was
:18:50. > :19:00.supposed to be helping war veterans. O'Neill lived a life. He was good
:19:00. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:10.at it. He told everyone he had been a military policeman for many years.
:19:10. > :19:16.That is a live. O'Neill only served a two brief periods in the army. We
:19:16. > :19:23.have been told he never saw active service. He joined after school,
:19:23. > :19:26.and was in the youth, not the cadets. In the induction period. He
:19:26. > :19:33.stayed for some time. He left because he said was becoming boring.
:19:33. > :19:38.He went again and immediately that Northern island was mentioned, he
:19:38. > :19:42.came straight back out again. from the media spotlight, we
:19:42. > :19:47.discovered that O'Neill was living in chaos. He rented this bungalow
:19:47. > :19:54.on Anglesey and told the landlord he was homeless. He was a charmer.
:19:54. > :20:00.A smooth talker. He could talk himself into the palace. But when
:20:00. > :20:06.the rent was due, O'Neill was not quite so keen to communicate.
:20:06. > :20:16.time I tried to get hold of him, he said he was in London, giving
:20:16. > :20:20.seminars about PTSD, combat stress, drugs and Argos. -- drugs and
:20:20. > :20:28.alcohol. Coming to the back bedroom, I don't know what's been going on
:20:28. > :20:32.here, but you can see a lot of personal paperwork and details. We
:20:32. > :20:40.have found it a lot of heavy gambling stuff that has been going
:20:40. > :20:45.on here. By the sum of 2011, O'Neill's lies started to catch up
:20:45. > :20:52.with him. Two directors joined the board of Forces for Good, one of
:20:52. > :21:00.whom or was it psychotherapist Mandy Bostwick. Chris O'Neill
:21:00. > :21:06.invited me to become a director. went along to an office in clan did
:21:06. > :21:14.know and has signed a paper agreeing to be off -- agreeing to
:21:14. > :21:21.the directors. They soon. They soon became suspicious. He refused to
:21:21. > :21:25.show than the accounts and they went to the bank manager. He asked
:21:25. > :21:32.if they knew how much they should be in the account. We said, they
:21:32. > :21:37.should be between 85,090 1,000. We saw the bank manager's pupils
:21:37. > :21:47.pinpoint. I said, judging by their reaction, there isn't much in there,
:21:47. > :21:47.
:21:47. > :21:52.or is there? He said, I can't disclose it. He said its under �500.
:21:52. > :21:57.I remember very clearly Mr Grace sitting to my right and the colour
:21:57. > :22:01.drain from him completely. -- Mr Gray. I felt completely sick and
:22:01. > :22:04.wondered how on earth this had managed it to happen. I said, we
:22:04. > :22:11.have to inform the police straight away because we will need some
:22:11. > :22:15.support from everywhere. It is 16 months since they blew the whistle
:22:15. > :22:21.and Chris O'Neill's House of Cards has come crashing down. In court,
:22:21. > :22:31.he pleaded guilty to two counts of fraud. He will be sentenced but he
:22:31. > :22:37.has been warned that his future is likely to be behind bars. But what
:22:37. > :22:44.about the damage done to the veterans left behind? It was a
:22:44. > :22:51.disaster. It was, like, I have come here, through my own personal
:22:51. > :22:58.circumstances. Rebuilding my life, and now, I am further down the line
:22:58. > :23:05.them what I was when I first came here. I feel suicidal. You have
:23:06. > :23:11.just had your whole world taken away from you. Because of one man.
:23:11. > :23:16.He is somebody that I deplore for what he did. It is a very tragic
:23:16. > :23:20.lesson. I can't do anything about photographs taken with me, but I
:23:20. > :23:26.can do something about speaking out on behalf of people who need to be
:23:26. > :23:32.supported, not victimised. could the events around -- around
:23:32. > :23:36.the collapse of Forces for Good have a greater impact? There always
:23:36. > :23:41.be conmen taking advantage of a strong situation, as veterans are
:23:41. > :23:46.in this case. But people should not stop giving to veteranss --
:23:46. > :23:49.veterans' organisations. The British Legion, organisations like
:23:49. > :23:55.that are strong organisations which have been doing brilliantly for so
:23:55. > :24:01.long. So, how has the situation allowed to get this far? That is
:24:01. > :24:07.the question being asked by one MP who was demanding an inquiry.
:24:07. > :24:12.has been a failure of regulatory control. It may be partly the world
:24:12. > :24:17.government and partly Conwy Council, but somewhere, it has to be found
:24:17. > :24:23.out and properly dealt with because checks and balances are vital when
:24:23. > :24:30.public funds are being given out. It was Conwy Borough Council's job
:24:30. > :24:34.to administer the �125,000 grant. We asked the Welsh Assembly
:24:34. > :24:38.government to ask -- what had been done to check Chris O'Neill's
:24:38. > :24:42.background before the money was paid out. They declined a request
:24:42. > :24:50.for an interview but they said that, the borough council have paid the
:24:50. > :24:55.money back to them in full. The Welsh government said that they
:24:55. > :24:58.worked with the councils to strengthen Conwy's governors
:24:58. > :25:03.procedures. Even so, there are questions about the way, we dealt
:25:03. > :25:07.with the whole affair. Serious decisions need to be made about
:25:07. > :25:11.people working in public office who have the responsibility of our
:25:11. > :25:15.money, regarding what they are doing with it, and what checks are
:25:15. > :25:21.being placed on it. And if there are no checks being placed on it
:25:21. > :25:26.and this kind of thing happens, then people who hold responsible
:25:26. > :25:31.positions start -- need to be brought to account. There are a
:25:31. > :25:35.whole host of warning bells going off. Proper systems and procedures
:25:35. > :25:39.can manage those. I have to question whether the systems and
:25:39. > :25:44.procedures were in place and whether they were managed. Was it
:25:44. > :25:48.naive? It is possible that somebody was naive. He in other words,
:25:48. > :25:54.before but this individual was such a good chap, they could afford to
:25:55. > :26:01.give them a cheque for �125,000 and that will be all right? Put it this
:26:01. > :26:08.way, somebody came to me and said a few people think I'm a good bloke,
:26:08. > :26:14.can I have �125,000, I wouldn't give it to him. Among the questions
:26:14. > :26:21.we would have liked to have put to the council is why they pay the
:26:21. > :26:31.grant to Forces for Good in a lump sum? Why did they not -- why do
:26:31. > :26:33.they allow Chris O'Neill to have the money solely. They have refused
:26:33. > :26:39.our request for an interview but there are important questions we
:26:39. > :26:44.needed to put to the chief executive, Iwan Davies.
:26:44. > :26:50.We would like to talk to you about Forces for Good. The council will
:26:50. > :26:53.be putting assets -- the council will be looking at its own internal
:26:54. > :26:58.report soon. We have made several request to talk to the councils
:26:58. > :27:06.which have been denied. The council, as you know, has been accused of
:27:06. > :27:10.not a ministering funds properly. First thing on a Monday morning!
:27:10. > :27:14.There are important questions. are not hiding anything. We are
:27:14. > :27:18.doing things properly, there will be a public meeting where you can
:27:18. > :27:22.watch. Why have you been so reluctant to say anything up to
:27:22. > :27:27.this point? Because we have been waiting for the trial to conclude.
:27:27. > :27:33.You know that Chris O'Neill has been -- has pleaded guilty. He has
:27:33. > :27:36.not been sentenced. That is imminent. He has accepted his role.
:27:36. > :27:41.I think this is very much in the public interest, you would accept
:27:41. > :27:47.that? Yes, that is why we will have a meeting in public to discuss the
:27:47. > :27:51.Council's position. Why are you so reluctant to do an interview?
:27:51. > :27:58.don't trust people like you. This is poor behaviour. It is because
:27:58. > :28:01.the council has refused to face up to the accusations against it. So,
:28:01. > :28:06.it will need -- it will be the people of Conwy and this area who
:28:06. > :28:10.will have to pick up the bill for Chris O'Neill's crimes, not to
:28:10. > :28:17.mention the cost of the court case an investigation by the police and
:28:17. > :28:21.council. A burden that will have to be shouldered by all Welsh -- all
:28:21. > :28:27.Welsh taxpayers. The money has gone and the veterans have been left
:28:27. > :28:33.with an uncertain future. That was the big one. I felt we were making
:28:33. > :28:38.a difference. We were about time. To have it ripped away, not just
:28:38. > :28:46.from me, but from all those guys who we were promising to help, it
:28:46. > :28:54.is probably one of the hardest things to do. I came home, I was a
:28:54. > :28:58.broken man. Somebody has got to take the responsibility, so it is
:28:59. > :29:02.surely the people in power and gave him the money. You invest that