:00:13. > :00:20.people who rarely find a welcome. They call us stinking pikeys.
:00:20. > :00:26.Stinking gypsies. If we had anywhere else to go we would not be here.
:00:26. > :00:30.Across Wales they need more sites but where will they go? They say we
:00:30. > :00:38.do not want the huggers here. has life changed for the travellers
:00:38. > :00:42.we met 21 years ago? A new law might mean councils being prosecuted if
:00:42. > :00:47.they do not build new sites but what about the neighbours? It is the mess
:00:47. > :00:57.that is left behind and the thieving that goes on. Not all travellers are
:00:57. > :01:15.
:01:15. > :01:20.This is home for the McDonnagh family. A roadside on a business
:01:20. > :01:27.park in Swansea. They have no toilets, water or electricity. We do
:01:28. > :01:31.not want to be here. This is what we call home. They have been camped
:01:31. > :01:38.here for 18 months and three Bernard's five children go to local
:01:38. > :01:44.schools. The kids come back from school, if they need to use the
:01:44. > :01:51.toilet they go to Burger King or KFC. Showers, they go to VLC in
:01:51. > :01:54.Swansea. You can see here we keep the place as tidy as we can. With
:01:54. > :02:01.five kids coming in here, every evening it has to be swept up and
:02:01. > :02:07.kept tidy. We take these bags to the tip every evening. But neighbouring
:02:07. > :02:10.businesses have had enough and they want the council to evict them.
:02:10. > :02:17.are told they are not going to be here long but we have been told that
:02:17. > :02:21.before. We invite numerous high profile clients to our flagship head
:02:21. > :02:28.office premises. The first thing they see and notice is that we are
:02:28. > :02:35.flanked by some gypsy caravans. The family has been using the company's
:02:35. > :02:39.water supply and Dawnus have caught other unwanted guests on camera.
:02:39. > :02:43.have had horses tethered here, both on this particular patch and more
:02:43. > :02:52.recently around the back here. No horses here today but tomorrow there
:02:52. > :02:56.may well be. The family say the horses belong to other travellers.
:02:56. > :03:02.We respect their culture but at the same time, they need to be living
:03:02. > :03:06.somewhere else. If this family is moved on, they say they will have to
:03:06. > :03:10.park summer rails illegally in Swansea. That is because the council
:03:10. > :03:14.does not have an official site for them to go to. But it is spending
:03:14. > :03:18.money trying to evict them and others from around the city. Across
:03:18. > :03:28.Wales there is a demand for hundreds of new pitches and the row about
:03:28. > :03:32.where to put them is getting louder. By law, councils are expected to try
:03:32. > :03:37.to provide gypsy and traveller sites where there is a need. Gorseinon is
:03:37. > :03:44.a town which has been earmarked by Swansea Council for one of five new
:03:44. > :03:50.possible sites. Malcolm Curtice is a town councillor. Until last month he
:03:50. > :03:57.was the local mayor. I ask people what they think and they say, we do
:03:57. > :04:01.not want the huggers here. That is it. There is no more to be said.
:04:01. > :04:06.They do not want them here. Malcolm does not speak for everyone in the
:04:06. > :04:12.town but he tells me why some people do not want gypsies and travellers
:04:12. > :04:16.here. The site is well used for the local public.
:04:16. > :04:23.The show people come here three or four times a year. It is a beautiful
:04:23. > :04:29.area. Malcolm says people have not forgotten the travellers who parked
:04:29. > :04:36.illegally here 20 years ago. The thefts in the shops in the high
:04:36. > :04:40.Street and the mess left after them. I'm not saying the new travellers
:04:40. > :04:49.coming here it is them, I cannot say that because it is going back 20 odd
:04:50. > :04:55.years. You do not want them here? The public do not want them here.
:04:55. > :05:05.We asked some of the locals what they think. As travellers, they
:05:05. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:10.should be travelling. We are on the rise. We have Asda coming to
:05:10. > :05:16.Gorseinon. We are trying to make it look nicer and we are really worried
:05:16. > :05:19.about something which will be an eyesore. But the council thinks some
:05:20. > :05:24.of this park land which will set aside for a cemetery might be the
:05:24. > :05:29.place. Once people know it is a gypsy site or a traveller site as
:05:29. > :05:35.they call it, which is close by, I think it will affect the price of
:05:35. > :05:40.houses. If I was buying I would think twice. I am all for giving
:05:40. > :05:48.people a chance and then see what happens. Love your neighbour and who
:05:48. > :05:55.is my neighbour? They have got rituals. They do a lot of fighting
:05:55. > :05:59.and they do have the attitude that you are not allowed near their land.
:05:59. > :06:02.Malcolm has never visited the city's only official site so we
:06:02. > :06:09.asked him if he would like the opportunity. What do you think you
:06:09. > :06:15.know about them and their life? Well, I do not know much, to be
:06:15. > :06:23.honest. They come over from Ireland. They are mostly Irish tinkerers. 90%
:06:23. > :06:29.of them have got houses in Ireland. They come back, Labour, paving slabs
:06:29. > :06:34.and that is it, that is the way they work and people are getting fed up
:06:34. > :06:41.with it. If they want a permanent site, have a permanent house, that
:06:41. > :06:51.is my argument. Is the law wrong? The law is an ass has been often
:06:51. > :06:59.said. The law says they are entitled to have their own pitch and sites.
:06:59. > :07:04.If they want a permanent site, have a permanent house.
:07:04. > :07:08.This is Swansea Council's only official Gypsy and Traveller site.
:07:08. > :07:14.With seven pictures it is home to the Gilheaney family. They like it
:07:14. > :07:20.but they say it is not big enough. They're all my brothers and sisters
:07:20. > :07:26.living here. It is fantastic but the city does need a new site. We have
:07:26. > :07:30.everything we need but we could do with a bit more space. In here now
:07:30. > :07:37.you have got the conservatory at the front. That is your kitchen, sitting
:07:37. > :07:42.area where you eat. Then you have a shower, bathroom, toilet facilities.
:07:42. > :07:46.Jimmy and his wife have eight children. We have no intention of
:07:46. > :07:54.leaving the site. We are happy where we are. But when the children grow
:07:54. > :07:58.up they might need more space. and living as a scrap collector. He
:07:58. > :08:03.is worried about the row about where to put the new site is fuelling
:08:03. > :08:08.anti-Gypsy and Traveller sentiment. You can be driving through the
:08:08. > :08:13.street and you will salute someone and they will go like that, to pose.
:08:13. > :08:20.That is how it is every day around Swansea. They paint everyone with
:08:20. > :08:26.the same brush. They say we do not pay taxes, we get things for
:08:26. > :08:30.nothing. We pay our way. Obviously, a small minority probably do not pay
:08:30. > :08:35.their way but so do the settled community. I imagine that they think
:08:35. > :08:41.a gypsy's home would be very filthy and dirty and smelly and as you can
:08:41. > :08:47.see, it is not the case. We use this as a kitchen. We use the camper home
:08:47. > :08:54.as a bedroom. I have got kids living there and kids next door in another
:08:54. > :08:57.caravan. We had that the caravans in one plot. Families who stay here pay
:08:57. > :09:04.rent and council tax but Jimmy is worried that wherever the new site
:09:04. > :09:08.is built there could be a backlash. There were picketing boards.
:09:08. > :09:16.there was a black person and they were protesting, what would be said
:09:16. > :09:24.then? Is it because they are gypsies it is okayed to do that?
:09:24. > :09:29.The two sides have agreed to meet. am prepared to listen to him. I will
:09:30. > :09:33.try and enlighten him and educate him.
:09:33. > :09:41.For 20 years, Welsh councils have been obliged to try and provide
:09:41. > :09:45.sites but some have none at all. Today, pictures are needed for 1200
:09:46. > :09:50.caravans in Wales. For dozens of gypsies in Newport, there has never
:09:50. > :09:58.been an official site. They all live rent free on unauthorised pictures
:09:58. > :10:05.but that is about to change. Thank you, Lord, thank you for everyone
:10:05. > :10:09.here. We know you can do miracles. This gypsy family is praying for a
:10:09. > :10:14.better future. They have been illegally camped for more than a
:10:14. > :10:21.year. The Price family may have been welcomed by a local church but
:10:21. > :10:26.others in the city are not as keen. About two days ago they came to the
:10:26. > :10:35.gate and said, you stinking gypsies. Get back to where you come from and
:10:35. > :10:40.all that. If we had anywhere else to go, we would not be here. This might
:10:40. > :10:47.be their next home. There are plans to site 120 caravans here. The
:10:47. > :10:52.gypsies like the idea but it has not gone down well in the community.
:10:52. > :10:58.Everyone you talk to, they want to stop it. If you are living in a posh
:10:58. > :11:03.part they are concerned it will make the area look a bit low. I don't see
:11:03. > :11:07.why everybody cannot get along. They have got to settle somewhere. I'm
:11:07. > :11:16.not saying they are all that add but I suppose they get tarred with the
:11:16. > :11:23.same brush. -- all that bad. They live under pylons but there is
:11:23. > :11:27.no mains electricity. They paid �25 a week for a toilet and there is one
:11:27. > :11:31.tap for 35 adults and children. do not have a shower, we have a wash
:11:31. > :11:38.in a bowl. It is quite hard. What we need on this site is toilets for
:11:38. > :11:48.each home. We need proper water. We could do with electric. We do not
:11:48. > :11:54.mind paying for it. And just somewhere really settled.
:11:54. > :11:59.Chantelle lives here with her three children her parents and a large
:11:59. > :12:02.extended family. They are being tolerated here and tell the council
:12:02. > :12:10.builds a new site. Chantelle's brother says rats are another
:12:10. > :12:14.problem. All the holes you see along the bottom of that fence, that is
:12:14. > :12:18.the rat runs. You see the backs of these, there are holes in the back
:12:18. > :12:26.of the fence is to put the gas pipes through. You have got to block them
:12:26. > :12:32.to stop them getting in. That is how bad the rat far. Chantelle thinks
:12:32. > :12:36.these conditions are making her children ill. She has had diarrhoea
:12:36. > :12:40.and sickness. Most of the times they are burning up and come out with a
:12:40. > :12:46.rash but we do not know where it comes from. We take them to the
:12:46. > :12:50.doctors and they say it is a viral infection, everything. Life would be
:12:50. > :12:53.easier and house but Chantelle is a gypsy and she wants the right to
:12:53. > :13:03.follow her tradition and live the caravan life. There is my kitchen
:13:03. > :13:04.
:13:04. > :13:12.there, my diner. I have been in a house before. I am a gypsy and I am
:13:12. > :13:17.used to being a gypsy. When I get decorating, I want to go.
:13:17. > :13:24.The new site is planned opposite the Pile family's home. They moved in
:13:24. > :13:29.six months ago. The main reason we moved to this house is the ruble
:13:29. > :13:33.location. It is that slickly beautiful, very peaceful, very
:13:33. > :13:38.quiet. Safe for the children. There is no traffic on the lane. It is
:13:38. > :13:44.perfect really. Carly Pile say they have invested everything in their
:13:44. > :13:48.home and now they are worried they might have made a big mistake.
:13:48. > :13:52.house is situated here and I have just walked five yards across.
:13:52. > :13:56.behind this hedgerow is where the site is proposed to be. As you can
:13:56. > :14:04.see, it is Ray close to my house. From my bedroom window I will be
:14:04. > :14:11.looking onto the site. Protesters want the council to sell the land.
:14:11. > :14:17.The council thinks this is the best place to say to travellers. Gypsy
:14:17. > :14:24.rights worker Tom Hendrie is visiting Chantelle. He is a gypsy he
:14:24. > :14:30.grew up in Newport. This is the pressure. You cannot host down the
:14:30. > :14:37.trailers or nothing. He knows only too well how much gypsies need an
:14:37. > :14:46.official site. You have to propose something because it makes you sound
:14:46. > :14:53.better. These people have nowhere to live. The row over where to put
:14:53. > :14:57.sites has been raging the decades. 21 years ago, I filmed on Swansea is
:14:57. > :15:00.sprawling unofficial site. More than 100 people are living in appalling
:15:00. > :15:05.squalor, families with small children make the best of filthy
:15:05. > :15:13.conditions because this is their last refuge. Back then, I met
:15:13. > :15:19.another family. The Joyces. Mounds of rubbish have piled up high in the
:15:20. > :15:27.caravan belonging to Kathleen. She only leaves the caravan at day.
:15:27. > :15:31.At night, she is trapped by rats. A friend of mine was here and she had
:15:31. > :15:35.little girl and one got into the caravan and got the child on the
:15:35. > :15:39.leg. The child was in hospital. They were regularly evicted. Years
:15:39. > :15:45.earlier, her daughter-in-law told the BBC how she had struggled to
:15:45. > :15:49.find a school I was prepared to teach her children. I went to the
:15:49. > :15:52.first school and asked if they would take the kids. She thought it was
:15:52. > :16:02.somebody out of the houses so when she heard I was from down here she
:16:02. > :16:07.refused. This is Christine now. We found her living a few miles from
:16:07. > :16:15.the old site, she still doesn't have an official pitch in the city.
:16:15. > :16:25.Hello. How are you? It's been a long time.
:16:25. > :16:25.
:16:25. > :16:30.Can I come in? Please come in. Well, here we are again. 21 years later.
:16:30. > :16:40.We are still here. You are still here. How have things been for you?
:16:40. > :16:49.Awful. Moving around week after week, month after month. Do you get
:16:49. > :16:55.depressed? Sometimes. I am on anti-depression tablets. Do you know
:16:55. > :17:05.what the cause is? The hassle I have had to life, nowhere to properly
:17:05. > :17:07.
:17:07. > :17:10.stay, no amenities and I would like my family to have them. Christine's
:17:11. > :17:16.children and grandchildren live here too. Swansea Council owns the land
:17:16. > :17:21.and it has tried to evict them. But in court, Christine won the right to
:17:21. > :17:30.stay here until a new official site is built. This is the taps, no water
:17:30. > :17:39.coming out. Hot or cold. Nothing. Everything has to be carried by
:17:39. > :17:44.hand. Yes. This is the water supply. For 12 caravans, all of your
:17:44. > :17:49.washing needs. It comes from here. All from there. The council paid
:17:49. > :17:52.�45,000 to have two shoulder -- toilets and showers installed after
:17:52. > :17:59.the children's Commissioner intervened but it's still a
:17:59. > :18:05.struggle. We find it difficult, so many kids and adults using two
:18:06. > :18:09.showers and toilets is awful. to is not on. The life of
:18:09. > :18:13.uncertainty for travellers and gypsies in Swansea and across Wales
:18:13. > :18:17.might be about to change. The Welsh government will introduce
:18:17. > :18:27.legislation which if past will mean councils are prosecuted if they
:18:27. > :18:29.
:18:29. > :18:35.don't provide more official site in further tension in communities
:18:35. > :18:39.already unhappy with plans for new sites. Hillary and Tom Jenkins don't
:18:39. > :18:46.want one at the bottom of their garden. They are helping to lead the
:18:46. > :18:51.fight. If the council wants to put half �1 million houses there, Tom
:18:51. > :18:56.and I would object as well. They've organised protests against the new
:18:56. > :19:02.site. Currently the official, tolerated and illegal sites are all
:19:02. > :19:07.in the area. I am not racist. I have no objection to the council
:19:07. > :19:13.providing a site but if you said put all the black people to live in one
:19:13. > :19:17.area of Swansea, the council would be up in arms, council officers
:19:17. > :19:21.would be up in arms, the police would be and the commission for
:19:21. > :19:29.racial equality would be up in arms and anyone who had a fair-minded
:19:29. > :19:34.view of society would be up in arms. While the rows with the council
:19:34. > :19:37.continue, Christine has to manage. She would happily stay here if the
:19:37. > :19:43.council installed amenities but it won't because it says it is
:19:43. > :19:47.unsuitable. We were willing to pay rent but the council said we were
:19:47. > :19:55.not permanent residence. I was willing to pay rent. You don't pay
:19:55. > :20:04.council tax. No, we don't. We are willing to pay it. If the site was
:20:04. > :20:08.permanent. They know we are willing to do it. For the family living on a
:20:08. > :20:13.roadside, there's more at people ahead. Bernard is worried about the
:20:13. > :20:20.children's education if they leave the area. Kids going to school,
:20:20. > :20:24.water and electric, that's all we want. I would like them to read and
:20:24. > :20:30.write. I missed out on it. I never followed it up. They've been warned
:20:30. > :20:35.they will be evicted by September if they don't move on. Where would you
:20:35. > :20:42.go? Somewhere in the area again. whole process starts again.
:20:42. > :20:46.court orders and they move us here and it's what I've been used to.
:20:46. > :20:49.cost the public every time gypsies and travellers are evicted but
:20:49. > :20:56.without enough sites, the bill gets longer and the problem goes on and
:20:56. > :21:02.on. In Gorseinon, Malcolm says that the local politicians like him,
:21:02. > :21:10.there were no votes in gypsies and travellers. I know councillors have
:21:10. > :21:13.been told if they can hear you have had it. It is still true today.At
:21:13. > :21:23.the official site, Jimmy is anticipating his meeting with
:21:23. > :21:25.
:21:25. > :21:34.Malcolm. He will expect us to be rough and rowdy. Get him tied up, it
:21:34. > :21:44.might frighten him. This is who you have come to meet. This is Jimmy.
:21:44. > :21:50.
:21:50. > :21:54.All right. Pleased to meet you.I am Tim. Let's have a chat. What would
:21:54. > :22:02.July to know? How can you say you are travelling when you have a
:22:02. > :22:09.permanent site? What can I say? We are travellers, we were travellers
:22:09. > :22:16.but we have settled down. Would you like a permanent house? Would you
:22:16. > :22:24.let live a caravan? No, it's too cold in the winter. A house feels
:22:24. > :22:31.like a prison to me. Are you Irish? I am Welsh by birth. I used a box
:22:31. > :22:35.for Wales. I was like heavyweight champion in 1999. People will not
:22:35. > :22:39.accept you because you are travellers and living caravans.
:22:39. > :22:49.met someone this morning, they called me a gypsy. There is a
:22:49. > :22:54.difference between a gypsy and an Irish tinkerer. A gypsy moves about.
:22:54. > :23:02.And Irish tinkerer is racist, that is like calling a black person the
:23:02. > :23:10.n-word. You have been racist to me. Do not take offence. We cannot keep
:23:10. > :23:14.on like this. Next, a quick tour of the site. You have a better Way
:23:14. > :23:21.ground than the children in Gorseinon. The council is good to
:23:22. > :23:27.us. How do you make a living?Scrap. Anything I get, I work hard for it.
:23:27. > :23:33.That is the way any young man should be. If you get up and work you
:23:33. > :23:41.should be working. Not into the asphalt? A lot of people have been
:23:41. > :23:51.coming in, Irish, laying ass out, quick and away. Many may not be
:23:51. > :23:52.
:23:52. > :23:58.travellers. They are Irish. They are putting on the accent. Is there
:23:58. > :24:04.anything the community can do to change perceptions? It will not
:24:04. > :24:09.happen in my lifetime. Travellers I looked at and despised in society.
:24:09. > :24:13.It will not happen any time soon. Try to mix with the community.
:24:13. > :24:23.do, travellers try to mix but we keep getting pushed out. It is
:24:23. > :24:25.
:24:25. > :24:31.they,. People say we are thieving bustards. What you object to?
:24:31. > :24:34.Caravan life and the mess that is left behind and the thieving.
:24:34. > :24:40.is painting everyone with the same brush. Not all travellers alike
:24:40. > :24:45.that. I appreciate that. But when one does it, it is a stigma that
:24:45. > :24:53.goes right three. Jimmy except some travellers can be prejudiced.
:24:53. > :24:58.both sides. It is travellers as well, that is your way of living,
:24:58. > :25:03.this is our way of living, as no -- as long as no one is breaking the
:25:03. > :25:06.law. This is a sensitive issue. one from the council would be
:25:06. > :25:11.interviewed. They are currently assessing thousands of objections to
:25:11. > :25:17.the plans. The council says a site will be built but as yet no one
:25:17. > :25:21.knows where or when. Back in Newport, and today after looking at
:25:21. > :25:26.hundreds of possible locations, councillors are about to make a
:25:26. > :25:30.tough decision. They know they won't please everyone. Tom Hendry and bass
:25:30. > :25:36.are representing the gypsies, Carly and local protesters are the other
:25:36. > :25:46.side. If the land is allocated as planned, there is no financial
:25:46. > :25:51.gain. Housing is having some safe for children to grow and flat --
:25:52. > :25:56.grow and play. It's a basic human right. It would not serve human
:25:56. > :26:00.rights to make money. The council would not be interviewed about the
:26:00. > :26:05.plans. There was a heated debate inside the chamber but we weren't
:26:05. > :26:11.allowed to film it. Eventually they decided Ringland is the right place
:26:11. > :26:16.but Carly and the protesters are not giving up. Our plan now for the
:26:16. > :26:23.local residents is getting together and proceeding with legal action
:26:23. > :26:28.against the council. The plan will still have to be approved by Welsh
:26:28. > :26:32.government. It could be months before the prices and the city's
:26:32. > :26:37.other gypsy families know where they will end up. We want our own site, a
:26:37. > :26:43.home to say is our own and where we can stay all the time and safe for
:26:43. > :26:47.the kids. The Welsh government has offered councils grants to pay for
:26:47. > :26:50.new sites that much of the money still hasn't been used. Assembly
:26:50. > :26:54.member Julie Morgan shares the cross-party committee gypsies and
:26:54. > :26:59.travellers and says a new law will force councils to deal with the
:26:59. > :27:03.issue. We have to grasp the nettle and find places for people to live,
:27:03. > :27:07.they have human rights. But if councils do not do it, what
:27:07. > :27:13.sanctions will be applied against them? I cannot tell you. I do not
:27:13. > :27:18.know. Should sanctions be applied? Ultimately, every effort will have
:27:18. > :27:22.to be made to ensure they do it. Housing Bill which could change
:27:22. > :27:28.everything for the families we have met, could become law next year.
:27:28. > :27:34.now, Christine is determined to live her way. I was raised like this as a
:27:34. > :27:38.child. And my family before me, I will not leave it off. If I have to
:27:38. > :27:45.live like this without water and electric, I will fight for it. But
:27:45. > :27:52.Bernard and his family will be on the move again soon. And Malcolm's
:27:52. > :28:00.visit has given him cause for thought. Cheers, boy. You're no
:28:00. > :28:06.different my boy. Just better looking! Do you think the impression
:28:06. > :28:13.you had and the one you gave earlier might be a little bit prejudiced?
:28:13. > :28:19.Could be. He is a Welsh boy with a broad Irish accent. That is what you
:28:19. > :28:23.found out. If I met him in Swansea I would not know the difference. I
:28:23. > :28:31.cannot understand why he cannot live in a house with a family he has got.
:28:31. > :28:39.Do you regret anything you have said? No, not all of it. Some of it.
:28:39. > :28:44.Just a bit. He seems quite a nice bloke. It could take a long time
:28:44. > :28:50.before we know if building a new site will build bridges between
:28:50. > :28:53.communities. Jimmy is keeping an open mind. I hope it has a different