0:00:02 > 0:00:05We're not sat on our arses, expecting people to give us money.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09Well, you obviously...you do want some. But you want it...
0:00:09 > 0:00:12You want me to give it to you in the form of housing benefit.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15'It's hitting harder in Wales than anywhere else in the UK.'
0:00:15 > 0:00:18I think it's cruel that you've got to move out your family home
0:00:18 > 0:00:21because of this bedroom tax.
0:00:21 > 0:00:23'There are tenants who could be evicted.'
0:00:23 > 0:00:28By 12.15pm tomorrow, I'll know if I'm going to be homeless or not.
0:00:28 > 0:00:33'We go door-knocking with housing officers in one Welsh town.'
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Do you feel sometimes like you're a bedroom tax collector?
0:00:36 > 0:00:39At the end of the day, I'm to get the full money off them.
0:00:39 > 0:00:40'One size doesn't fit all...'
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Before you start on with this bedroom tax,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46I think you ought to start building some properties first.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48'..and some home truths.'
0:00:48 > 0:00:50You're not going to like what I have to say to you.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10HE KNOCKS ON DOOR
0:01:10 > 0:01:12If you're not willing to pay that
0:01:12 > 0:01:14until we can get something sorted for you,
0:01:14 > 0:01:16it's going to be entered into court on Friday.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18KNOCK ON DOOR
0:01:18 > 0:01:21It's the knock on the door that many are dreading.
0:01:21 > 0:01:22If you didn't pay it this week,
0:01:22 > 0:01:26you'd be looking to apply for a warrant for eviction.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29Under our system, you're flagged as being underoccupying.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Do everything to get those arrears down now,
0:01:32 > 0:01:33to prevent any further action.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36When rent officer Ryan Dorian comes calling,
0:01:36 > 0:01:38it's often the last chance for tenants
0:01:38 > 0:01:39who are well behind with payments.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Sometimes the bedroom tax or arrears
0:01:41 > 0:01:45force people to bury their head in the sand and think they'll go away.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48And the next thing, there could be a bailiff at the door.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50One quarter of tenants here in Blaenavon
0:01:50 > 0:01:52have been or are in arrears,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55and many are struggling since the law changed.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Housing benefit has been cut
0:01:57 > 0:02:00for bedrooms that are now classified as spare.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Ryan has the job of recovering the shortfall or recommending eviction.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09So tenants like Natalie Powell have a problem.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12£62.24 a week.
0:02:14 > 0:02:15How much do you get?
0:02:15 > 0:02:17£71.40 a week.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20It makes it impossible.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Natalie can't meet all her debt repayments.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27She's run up £1,100 in arrears since the new law was introduced.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29She's pregnant, on income support,
0:02:29 > 0:02:31and she's due in court in the morning.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33I think now they will be going for eviction,
0:02:33 > 0:02:37because of the downfall for the bedroom tax.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Because they will work out that I can't afford it,
0:02:39 > 0:02:41so they'll just be looking to take the house tomorrow.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47By 12.15 tomorrow, I'll know if I'm going to be homeless or not.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54The number of applications to the court for evictions in Blaenavon
0:02:54 > 0:02:56has more than doubled since April.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Behind closed doors in this town and many like it across Wales,
0:02:59 > 0:03:02people are afraid of losing their homes.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10This is where I grew up, I suppose.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13A lot of my friends lived in these little houses,
0:03:13 > 0:03:15and I used to knock on the door and we used to go out
0:03:15 > 0:03:19and play with the chickens and...
0:03:19 > 0:03:22it holds a lot of memories for me.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26Gail Harris's family have lived here for generations,
0:03:26 > 0:03:30and she's rented the same three-bedroom house for 25 years.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34It's where my roots are and just where I feel comfortable.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40She brought up her children here, but they've since left home
0:03:40 > 0:03:43and now she lives here on her own.
0:03:43 > 0:03:49When I was in full-time work, I was paying my rent regular, every month.
0:03:49 > 0:03:50Never in arrears.
0:03:50 > 0:03:56And then suddenly, I was out of work, looking for a job.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58I had to go on Jobseeker's,
0:03:58 > 0:04:00and having to claim the benefits,
0:04:00 > 0:04:02for example, housing benefit.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04Then all of a sudden, this bedroom tax come in.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10So all my arrears have just been sky-high.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Gail has lost housing benefit,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15because the law says she has two bedrooms more than she needs.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18She's now £400 in arrears.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20You've never been in debt?
0:04:20 > 0:04:22I've never been in debt.
0:04:22 > 0:04:23No, never been in debt.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25It's always frightened me to death.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27It's just the constant worry.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35In the past, housing benefit could be claimed
0:04:35 > 0:04:38by people like Gail and Natalie to pay their rent,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42even if some of their bedrooms weren't being used all the time.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45But the UK government says that's unfair,
0:04:45 > 0:04:50and it's stopped what it calls the spare room subsidy.
0:04:50 > 0:04:55In Wales, it says that will save £25 million a year.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00But is a policy like that right for communities like this?
0:05:12 > 0:05:15All right, do you want a biscuit, then, before bed? Yeah!
0:05:15 > 0:05:20I need the rooms, but if they're not paying housing benefit,
0:05:20 > 0:05:21I'm a bit stuffed.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26Torfaen Council is no longer paying the rent
0:05:26 > 0:05:28for two of Natalie's three bedrooms
0:05:28 > 0:05:32because, under the new rules, they're considered to be spare.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35She's been left with big debts and more worry.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41Snuggle down, now. Kyla's teddy! Kiss.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Night, Jack.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45Natalie's children don't live with her,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48but she wants to keep the extra rooms so they can visit.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52Losing her home could make that relationship more difficult.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55She has an eviction hearing tomorrow.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58I just really don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02I could be packing up my house tomorrow,
0:06:02 > 0:06:05because I might have to be out of here.
0:06:05 > 0:06:06Because of the bedroom tax,
0:06:06 > 0:06:09it's making it impossible for me to stay here
0:06:09 > 0:06:10because I can't afford it,
0:06:10 > 0:06:15but I really need to be in this house and I need the rooms.
0:06:17 > 0:06:18So...
0:06:20 > 0:06:22..tomorrow's going to be quite a stressful day.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24Under the change in the law,
0:06:24 > 0:06:27full housing benefit can only be claimed
0:06:27 > 0:06:31for one family home instead of two when parents are separated.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43Natalie's children live with her mother, Molly.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47This is how we survive.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Molly thinks Natalie should be allowed to keep her spare rooms too.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57It's very important.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59They still need to have their bond with their mother,
0:06:59 > 0:07:03and I'm absolutely adamant I'm going to keep it.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08But does the state have to provide three rooms in two houses
0:07:08 > 0:07:10in order for that to happen?
0:07:10 > 0:07:12They're going to have to.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Where are we going to sleep the children?
0:07:19 > 0:07:22This is the day that Natalie has feared.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25On her way to court, she's facing the possibility
0:07:25 > 0:07:29of losing her home altogether, and Molly is worried too.
0:07:29 > 0:07:30If it goes the wrong way today,
0:07:30 > 0:07:33she is my daughter, after all is said and done,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36and I'm going to be absolutely devastated for her.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38The children can't really sleep on floors.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40They should never have brought this bedroom tax in.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57A lot of these three-bed houses, people have lived in for a long time,
0:07:57 > 0:08:00and then when their families have moved out and moved on,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02then obviously, they're left there on their own,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05but this is the area they've known and always lived in.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10So, you know, some of these are underoccupying. Right, OK.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13These housing officers see the wider problem.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16Claire Dullea is showing Tom Fullick which homes have been affected.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18Tenants in arrears will need financial help,
0:08:18 > 0:08:20or are moved to smaller properties
0:08:20 > 0:08:22where they won't have to pay the charge.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27And then we've got these one-beds, where they're one-up and one-down,
0:08:27 > 0:08:28and they're really desirable.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Lots of people have been in those a long time,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34and they don't become available very often. Right.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38In Blaenavon, only two one-bedroom flats have become available
0:08:38 > 0:08:40since the new law came in,
0:08:40 > 0:08:44and there were twice as many applicants as there were last year.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46We know people want to move,
0:08:46 > 0:08:48we've got people in our priority band,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50waiting to move to one-bedrooms,
0:08:50 > 0:08:52but we haven't got hardly any one-bedrooms
0:08:52 > 0:08:54in the north of the borough.
0:08:54 > 0:08:59Isn't it better to put people in the accommodation that suits them?
0:08:59 > 0:09:03It is, and I can see why the legislation has come into place.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06The only thing I would say is that, if we haven't got those one-bedrooms
0:09:06 > 0:09:09available for people to be able to move into,
0:09:09 > 0:09:10then it's not going to happen,
0:09:10 > 0:09:13and those people left in the three-bedroom houses,
0:09:13 > 0:09:16paying the bedroom tax, are really, really struggling.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28I've always been wary about putting the gas and electric on,
0:09:28 > 0:09:30but now, it's going to affect me this winter.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34I mean, this bedroom tax come in, what? April?
0:09:34 > 0:09:37But this winter, it is going to affect me,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40because I won't be able to afford to put the heating on.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43I buy hardly any food.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49I think twice about what I'm buying, and try and make it last.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53With two empty bedrooms, Gail has to find £21 a week.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57You're just thinking about every penny to try and manage.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00Your income is just...
0:10:00 > 0:10:03it seems to be going down and down and down.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07There's no one-bedroom flats.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10Only down below, so some people in Blaenavon are having to move
0:10:10 > 0:10:15down into Cwmbran or Pontnewydd, or...there's a few in Pontypool.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17And it's just...
0:10:17 > 0:10:21People are having to move into places they don't want to go.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24I'd be really isolated and cut off from the family.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26I've got a few friends down the Valleys,
0:10:26 > 0:10:29but, er, I would be cut off from the family.
0:10:30 > 0:10:34Which I enjoy having a cup of coffee with my sisters, and having a chat.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36Put those tea bags on the side, because I'm going to dry them out.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39THEY CHUCKLE I'll use them again.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41'And if I moved out of Blaenavon, I wouldn't get that.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43'I wouldn't get that at all.'
0:10:45 > 0:10:47You'd just lose it all.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53Across Wales, nearly half of all social housing claimants
0:10:53 > 0:10:55are losing benefit.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59The UK government says they have a choice - pay the extra rent,
0:10:59 > 0:11:00or move to a smaller property.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07Amy and Lloyd couldn't find a one-bedroom flat in their home town.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10You lose your friends.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13But you'll never lose your family.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16So, if I lost my friends...
0:11:16 > 0:11:18my family is still in Blaenavon.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20It only takes one phone call.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Amy suffers from epilepsy.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27If Amy doesn't feel well, and I've got to go to work,
0:11:27 > 0:11:29somebody can come and look after her.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32So, if we had to move to somewhere further,
0:11:32 > 0:11:35I couldn't go anywhere, because if Amy has a seizure
0:11:35 > 0:11:37and she's on her own, I don't know what could happen.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Housing officer Claire helped them get the flat.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45It's a two-bed, and it was all that was available,
0:11:45 > 0:11:47but the cost is pushing them to the limit.
0:11:47 > 0:11:48Hello.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51Like I said, you've done really well so far.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53I just hope that it'll be a long-term...
0:11:53 > 0:11:55that you can get the jobs,
0:11:55 > 0:12:00and you'll be able to... paying for the bedroom tax,
0:12:00 > 0:12:01then, shouldn't be such an issue.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03There's people out there,
0:12:03 > 0:12:07which I believe it's probably going to be me soon,
0:12:07 > 0:12:09going to be struggling.
0:12:09 > 0:12:13We're there to help, but should you not pay the rent,
0:12:13 > 0:12:17it's important you realise that you could be evicted.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19And that's the last thing we want.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23You've got so much stuff, considering you moved in with nothing.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26A third of all two and three-bed homes in Blaenavon have
0:12:26 > 0:12:28had their housing benefit cut.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31The average debt is £360.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Natalie has much bigger debts than that.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42The court has ruled, and she's narrowly escaped
0:12:42 > 0:12:45being evicted from her three-bedroom house.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47But only after her mother, Molly,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50agreed to pay the shortfall in her rent and arrears.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54If it wasn't for my mum, I'd now be going to present myself as homeless.
0:12:54 > 0:13:00My mum's just had to offer to pay the downfall of £47 every week.
0:13:00 > 0:13:01Otherwise, I would have been evicted.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03It would have been an order for eviction today,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06and I would have had to go and present as homeless.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08And now I've got to wait for Bron Afon to try and help me
0:13:08 > 0:13:10to downsize to a two-bedroom property.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12Well, we're just going to have to tighten our belts.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15The kids won't have quite so many niceties.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Natalie has agreed to work with
0:13:17 > 0:13:20the housing association to find a solution.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24They'll try to help her move to a smaller home or find savings
0:13:24 > 0:13:26so she can pay her rent.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29Tom is the housing officer who will advise her.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31People who are in really difficult situations,
0:13:31 > 0:13:34it's pretty common to have the discussion with them.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36They need to cut certain things out of their income
0:13:36 > 0:13:39and expenditure to be able to afford the rent.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42How do you do? My name's Tom. Yeah, come on in. Thanks.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44Expecting me today, then. Yes.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47Do you know roughly how much you would smoke?
0:13:47 > 0:13:49Depends how stressed I am! Right.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Um...I don't know, about £10 a week.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55Do you think, about £10 a week? Yeah. OK.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57People always live to their means.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00If they've got £100 a week or £1,000 a week,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03they'll always spend pretty much up to the end of that,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06and they'll live their life the way their income allows them.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10And obviously, when it gets cut, they have to make cutbacks.
0:14:10 > 0:14:11It's part of losing money.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14What would you see as an unnecessary expenditure,
0:14:14 > 0:14:17that you give people advice about cutting back on?
0:14:17 > 0:14:19Smoking is one of the big ones.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22We get quite a lot of people who say they drink on a regular basis,
0:14:22 > 0:14:24so that's another one to cut back on.
0:14:24 > 0:14:25And then clothing -
0:14:25 > 0:14:27clothing's a really difficult one to put a number on.
0:14:27 > 0:14:29When you make applications,
0:14:29 > 0:14:33usually what we recommend is about £3 per week per person in the household.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35How much was your top this week?
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Which one? The new one you bought.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39I got two. Oh, right.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42And how much were they? They were on sale.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45And then this last bit is other expenses,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48so anything you can think of that we might have missed in this list.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50No Sky or anything like that? No.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Anything you can think of at all?
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57If you have any problems, get in touch. OK, thank you.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59At least we'll be able to help her to downsize.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01As soon as she finds something suitable,
0:15:01 > 0:15:06then we'll be all for the support to help her deal with downsizing.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09She's still in the situation where she hasn't got enough money
0:15:09 > 0:15:12coming in for the money to go out.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Half a mile away, Clare is also trying to help Gail.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28You're not on any benefits.
0:15:28 > 0:15:33And how much do you earn on a weekly basis, if you don't mind me asking?
0:15:34 > 0:15:36On average, like, 20-25 hours.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39One suggestion is to take in a lodger.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41The thought of some... a stranger, then...
0:15:41 > 0:15:43All right, you've got to vet them first,
0:15:43 > 0:15:46you've got to feel comfortable with it,
0:15:46 > 0:15:48but the thought of a stranger living in my house...
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Your privacy's gone.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Well, everything's gone, really, isn't it?
0:15:53 > 0:15:57Gail's applying for a discretionary housing payment.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00It's a temporary benefit that might cover the shortfall in her rent.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04Claire also sets up an appointment with a money adviser.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06They make sure that you've got all the benefits
0:16:06 > 0:16:10that you're entitled to, and try and help it be as easy as possible.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12That sounds promising,
0:16:12 > 0:16:17because up until now, I've just felt totally on my own with it all.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19There's been a big increase in applications
0:16:19 > 0:16:22for discretionary housing payments since April.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Torfaen Council has spent one and a half times as much
0:16:25 > 0:16:28in the first six months of this year as in the whole of last year.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30It makes me really annoyed and frustrated,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33because I really want to help her.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36It's obvious that, you know, she needs help.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40Things are going downhill drastically for her in so many ways.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42The government have brought in the charges
0:16:42 > 0:16:46without really thinking about the options for people.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50We can't promise her that it will only be a week or fortnight or month,
0:16:50 > 0:16:52because we don't really know how long it will take
0:16:52 > 0:16:54before a suitable property comes in.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04The UK government believes that privately owned flats
0:17:04 > 0:17:08will help to meet demand when the full effect of the new law kicks in.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12But in Blaenavon not all landlords will accept tenants on benefits.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16They won't, they won't, they won't. They will.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20That one made a decision to go with someone on private.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22So, out of those properties, nine,
0:17:22 > 0:17:25we've only got three who will consider people on benefits.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27Two thirds of them wouldn't... Two thirds.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30How worried are the landlords that you represent about people
0:17:30 > 0:17:32who've been, if you like,
0:17:32 > 0:17:35forced out of large housing association properties,
0:17:35 > 0:17:37three-bedroom houses and so on,
0:17:37 > 0:17:41who are now trying to seek out one-bedroom flats,
0:17:41 > 0:17:44and yet might be bringing with them a lot of debt?
0:17:44 > 0:17:48That is a major concern for a lot of our landlords.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50we have, in the last couple of months,
0:17:50 > 0:17:53had to say no to two families. Yeah.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Have you seen people distressed?
0:17:55 > 0:17:57Yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, terrible.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01People crying... Crying in the office, and it's been upsetting,
0:18:01 > 0:18:03it's been really, really horrendous.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07Our tenants are looking for somewhere smaller to live,
0:18:07 > 0:18:08but where can they go?
0:18:09 > 0:18:11Amy and Lloyd are in a two-bed.
0:18:11 > 0:18:13Paying for the empty room is a struggle.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18We are not going to get into arrears.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20To make sure we didn't go in arrears,
0:18:20 > 0:18:22we've cut down on loads of things, haven't we?
0:18:22 > 0:18:24Like, we had Sky and internet, internet -
0:18:24 > 0:18:26we don't have that any more.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29Basically, in order to put the rent first, you've had to...
0:18:29 > 0:18:32Cut down loads. Cut on the luxuries.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36Pretty much. Um... That's the right way round, isn't it?
0:18:36 > 0:18:38Well...
0:18:38 > 0:18:40To keep a roof over our heads and not be in the rain -
0:18:40 > 0:18:42it's better than nothing, isn't it?
0:18:44 > 0:18:49They get just £60 a week between them from a training scheme.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51How long was that on for?
0:18:51 > 0:18:55Using the fire provokes a rush to the electricity meter.
0:18:55 > 0:18:56So, how much has that taken off you?
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Um... We had £4.82.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02We had £4.82, and now we've got £3.92, so it took...
0:19:02 > 0:19:04£1.10 off us.
0:19:04 > 0:19:06See, this is why we can't have it on -
0:19:06 > 0:19:08because every penny on our electric counts.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Say we go and get £10 electric,
0:19:11 > 0:19:13that should last us a good couple of weeks.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22There are 90,000 people on housing waiting lists in Wales.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25In the past, housing associations have offered couples
0:19:25 > 0:19:27like Amy and Lloyd larger flats
0:19:27 > 0:19:30in the expectation that they'll have families.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33But Bron Afon say, with the changes to housing benefit,
0:19:33 > 0:19:36couples aren't prepared to risk going into arrears,
0:19:36 > 0:19:40and properties are actually staying empty for longer as a result.
0:19:40 > 0:19:41Morning, Tim.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44The UK government wants to cut the huge housing benefit bill,
0:19:44 > 0:19:46and encourage people to work.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49David Davies is a prominent supporter.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51I entirely support the government's approach
0:19:51 > 0:19:54of bringing about these changes.
0:19:54 > 0:19:55Partly because...
0:19:55 > 0:19:59There's an issue about fairness with people who are already working
0:19:59 > 0:20:01and unable to get those benefits and partly because
0:20:01 > 0:20:03we're desperately short of money as a country
0:20:03 > 0:20:07and we simply can't afford the level of benefits that have been in place.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10'He's coming with us to talk to the tenants face to face.'
0:20:10 > 0:20:12What are you anticipating?
0:20:12 > 0:20:14I assume people won't be very happy.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16That's certainly to be expected,
0:20:16 > 0:20:21but I hope I can reassure people why these changes are being made.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24'First, we take him to meet Amy and Lloyd
0:20:24 > 0:20:27'at her grandfather's house.'
0:20:27 > 0:20:29You won't like what I have to say to you.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33But the Government have brought this in
0:20:33 > 0:20:35because we have a terrible financial situation
0:20:35 > 0:20:38at the moment, absolutely unbelievable.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40And the days when we were able
0:20:40 > 0:20:44to fund people in your situation have gone.
0:20:44 > 0:20:50Lloyd, you look obviously fairly fit and capable.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53If I were you, I wouldn't spend too much longer training
0:20:53 > 0:20:55on 30 quid a week, I'd be out there looking for work.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57You're not particularly tied to Blaenavon.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59Amy is, I accept that.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02But why not go to London? Why stay here if you can't find work here?
0:21:02 > 0:21:05Just finding the money. I need a job to get the money to go to London
0:21:05 > 0:21:07and find a place in London.
0:21:07 > 0:21:12For you to say, "Get a job", it's easier said than done.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15First of all, if I was in your situation, I think
0:21:15 > 0:21:19I'd move back home and wait until...save the money.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21Put yourself in my and Lloyd's position, right?
0:21:21 > 0:21:25I would love for you to go down to that Jobcentre,
0:21:25 > 0:21:27ask 'em for all the help they can give you
0:21:27 > 0:21:28and they'll just say "training".
0:21:28 > 0:21:33There was nothing on the boards because you are 17, you can't drive
0:21:33 > 0:21:35because you haven't got the money to drive.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37It's the end of the subject, closed.
0:21:37 > 0:21:38That is the fact of the matter.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40It probably is. Yeah, it is. It's easy for you to say it.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42That's how I would approach it.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45"Where did your money come from? Where's this, where's that?"
0:21:45 > 0:21:48What I wouldn't do is sit around and wait for Mr Davies
0:21:48 > 0:21:51to solve my problem, or anyone else, Tory, Labour or Liberal.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54People like me can't solve your problems.
0:21:54 > 0:21:55You're 17. You're a young man.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00You can't solve their problems, but you help create the problems.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02Thank you very much(!)
0:22:04 > 0:22:06If I knew there was a job available for me today,
0:22:06 > 0:22:08believe me, I'd be there.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11We're not sat on our arses, expecting people to give us money.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14I'm not expecting for you to give however much tax
0:22:14 > 0:22:18you pay for your money to come to me, because I don't want it.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Well, you obviously do want some.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24But you want me to give it to you in the form of housing benefit.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29David Davies is chairing a House of Commons enquiry
0:22:29 > 0:22:31into the bedroom tax in Wales.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33Hello.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36He's going to meet Molly at Natalie's three-bedroomed house.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38Natalie isn't here
0:22:38 > 0:22:41because she's in hospital, having her baby.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43I have to throw this back to you
0:22:43 > 0:22:45and I'd love to say it to your daughter to her face,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48but only in that I want to put to her what other people say -
0:22:48 > 0:22:49is it wise to have four children
0:22:49 > 0:22:52if there isn't a father around to pick up the bill for it?
0:22:52 > 0:22:54Well, yeah, there is that point.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57But even though we live separately,
0:22:57 > 0:23:01I still want her to see these children regularly. Mm-hm.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03I still want her to keep it as a family unit
0:23:03 > 0:23:05and I still want,
0:23:05 > 0:23:07wherever they're living - whether they're with me
0:23:07 > 0:23:09or with their mum -
0:23:09 > 0:23:10they need a roof over their head.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14My argument, really, is, for anybody downgrading,
0:23:14 > 0:23:17there is just not the property out there
0:23:17 > 0:23:18for them to move into.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21I definitely can see this being more of a problem in rural areas
0:23:21 > 0:23:24and parts of Wales like this than maybe in the cities.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27It's something we have to keep a very careful eye on.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Nobody wants people to lose out,
0:23:30 > 0:23:33nobody will want anyone not to have a roof over their head.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39With three grandchildren to entertain
0:23:39 > 0:23:42and another just born, what does Molly think
0:23:42 > 0:23:44about what Mr Davies had to say?
0:23:44 > 0:23:48I think he's living in cloud cuckoo land, to be honest.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52He's saying he can't supply us with two or three-bedroomed houses.
0:23:52 > 0:23:53Fair enough.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56So we downgrade, but where do we downgrade to?
0:23:56 > 0:23:58There is no properties around here.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00There is no two-bedroomed houses,
0:24:00 > 0:24:02there's no one-bedroomed flats.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05And how long will we have to wait until these are built?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08What would your message be to the Government?
0:24:08 > 0:24:11I think before you start on with this bedroom tax,
0:24:11 > 0:24:15I think you ought to start building some properties first.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18See it through to the end instead of just coming so far
0:24:18 > 0:24:20with this tax and thinking,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23"Oh, well, flip! Where will we put them now?"
0:24:23 > 0:24:26The Welsh Government is backing the construction
0:24:26 > 0:24:28of new homes for social housing,
0:24:28 > 0:24:30but the first won't be available until next year.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34Gail is one of those who's been looking to downsize,
0:24:34 > 0:24:38but she can't find anywhere, despite asking around the town.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41We take David Davies to meet her.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43I have a lot of sympathy for you, to be honest,
0:24:43 > 0:24:46but there's no way in law you can discriminate
0:24:46 > 0:24:49between people who, as you have, have worked all their life
0:24:49 > 0:24:53and paid into the system and are now getting back a small amount
0:24:53 > 0:24:57of what you've contributed, and somebody else who hasn't.
0:24:57 > 0:24:58And that is a real problem.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01As it stands, the housing association don't have any choice.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04They're told their hands are tied
0:25:04 > 0:25:08and, bluntly, they have to talk to people about eviction.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10That is right.
0:25:10 > 0:25:15If that's applied to Gail, that's your nightmare, isn't it? It is.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19There's no way you'd be left without a roof over your head.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21Can I ask you a question? Of course.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Don't you think the Government brought this bedroom tax in
0:25:25 > 0:25:29and they weren't fully prepared for it, and people like myself
0:25:29 > 0:25:32are willing to move out of that particular house,
0:25:32 > 0:25:36but there's just not the houses to meet the need.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38I think there has to be recognition,
0:25:38 > 0:25:40and maybe ministers are reluctant to say this,
0:25:40 > 0:25:42that when you change the law,
0:25:42 > 0:25:46there will be unforeseen and unfortunate consequences.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48In other words, there will be some people...
0:25:48 > 0:25:49That's what's happened.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51Yes. I think we should be upfront about that.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55There are people who will lose out that don't deserve to lose out
0:25:55 > 0:25:57and I think you may well fall into that category.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59I'm really sorry for that.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02That doesn't mean I think we can reverse the whole thing
0:26:02 > 0:26:05or change it, because I think there's a bigger picture there.
0:26:05 > 0:26:09'So, an apology, but he still backs the policy.'
0:26:10 > 0:26:13We've seen for ourselves how the people of this community
0:26:13 > 0:26:16have been affected by the changes in housing benefit,
0:26:16 > 0:26:21with tenants often being pitted against housing officers.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24So far, the majority of the 40,000 people
0:26:24 > 0:26:27across Wales who've been affected by the introduction of the bedroom tax
0:26:27 > 0:26:31are staying in their homes and paying the extra rent.
0:26:31 > 0:26:35But winter is on its way and as fuel bills rise,
0:26:35 > 0:26:40many of those people will find life getting harder.
0:26:42 > 0:26:43KNOCK ON DOOR
0:26:43 > 0:26:48So the Blaenavon housing team will keep on touring the estates,
0:26:48 > 0:26:50offering help and chasing arrears.
0:26:52 > 0:26:53There are genuine cases
0:26:53 > 0:26:56where they make a decision and put gas in or pay the bedroom tax
0:26:56 > 0:26:59or put food on the table or pay the bedroom tax.
0:26:59 > 0:27:00I don't agree with that in this day and age.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03People on Jobseeker's Allowance
0:27:03 > 0:27:07or Employment Seeker's Allowance genuinely can't afford it.
0:27:07 > 0:27:11Not that they don't want to, they just can't.
0:27:11 > 0:27:12The money just isn't there.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22'Amy and Lloyd are determined to make a go of their new independent life together,
0:27:22 > 0:27:24'whatever David Davies says.'
0:27:24 > 0:27:25What sort of things do you eat?
0:27:25 > 0:27:27Anything that's on offer.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29Anything what's on offer, really.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31Two for £1.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34As they count the pennies, they're bracing themselves
0:27:34 > 0:27:37for their first winter in their flat.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39We'll have a bit of a cold Christmas, won't we?
0:27:39 > 0:27:41Food.
0:27:41 > 0:27:46Cos the snow was bad last year, we need to get out.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48But you're not going back to your mum's
0:27:48 > 0:27:50and you're not going to London?
0:27:50 > 0:27:52No.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54Why should we?
0:27:54 > 0:27:56Natalie has had her new baby
0:27:56 > 0:28:00and has managed to avoid eviction, this time.
0:28:02 > 0:28:04Gail is still on the hunt for a new home
0:28:04 > 0:28:07and worrying about her future.
0:28:07 > 0:28:12There's nothing available at the moment, and I just feel I'm trapped.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15I think it's cruel. I think it's really cruel
0:28:15 > 0:28:18that you've got to move out of your family home.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21because of this bedroom tax.
0:28:43 > 0:28:46Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd