:00:18. > :00:23.veteran at the centre of a political storm over the NHS in Wales. Those
:00:24. > :00:29.are shocking figures. Some people are going to die by the time they're
:00:30. > :00:33.actually getting treatment. She's embarrassed the party leadership in
:00:34. > :00:36.Wales. She has produced nothing but anonymous comments. We don't whether
:00:37. > :00:40.they are correct or not and they can't be investigated. What about
:00:41. > :00:49.the people who have died waiting for treatment? All he kept saying was,
:00:50. > :00:53.proep promise -- "Promise me if anything happens you won't leave it
:00:54. > :01:00.there." Can you feel her pain for a second? I can and I'm deeply sorry.
:01:01. > :01:13.Tonight, we examine the evidence and ask, is Ann Clwyd right?
:01:14. > :01:22.I'm off to Westminster with MP Ann Clwyd. A very familiar routine for
:01:23. > :01:27.you? It is. Shall I put your bag in the boot? Yes. I'll do that. Thank
:01:28. > :01:31.you. I'm accompanying her on a journey behind the headlines, to
:01:32. > :01:37.find out why she's so determined to ask awkward questions about the NHS
:01:38. > :01:44.in Wales. There's a feeling that you have become a real maverick and your
:01:45. > :01:55.campaign is undermining Labour in Wales. For critics to say you can't
:01:56. > :01:59.be critical of the NHS is not doing mie constituents any good, because
:02:00. > :02:04.they're the ones on long waiting lists. Some of them may have died on
:02:05. > :02:09.hospital waiting lists and that is not right. If it's not right, you've
:02:10. > :02:13.got to say so. When she was asked to review the NHS complaints system in
:02:14. > :02:19.England, she received scores of complaints from Wales too. The
:02:20. > :02:25.letters from people haven't stopped. Letters and e-mails and phone calls.
:02:26. > :02:34.There's a lot of people out there who are hurting. A lot of people who
:02:35. > :02:40.are suffering. And they think that somehow I can put things right,
:02:41. > :02:44.well, I'm trying to. She's driven straight into controversy over the
:02:45. > :02:47.NHS in Wales, criticising poor care and long waiting lists. Which she
:02:48. > :02:54.says are falling behind the rest of the UK. At this meeting in Cardiff
:02:55. > :03:00.in March, they heard familiar and harrowing complaints. Simply broken.
:03:01. > :03:06.One story after another. Where is my husband? He's dead.
:03:07. > :03:11.Labour-supporting Jackie parsons is here too. She is one of the hundreds
:03:12. > :03:17.of people who has written to app. I'm 54 and I've been waiting for a
:03:18. > :03:22.hip replacement. It's gradually got worse and worse. The bit that irks
:03:23. > :03:27.many is I've been on the sick from work for six months and I've been
:03:28. > :03:35.sacked. I'm still awaiting my hip replacement and it's just a
:03:36. > :03:40.disaster. Jackie is in constant pain. At home in Barry, where she
:03:41. > :03:47.was once the town mayor, she has to rely on carers as he waits. I've got
:03:48. > :03:52.two parents who are in their 70s do things that I wouldn't even bat an
:03:53. > :03:58.eyelid about doing, simple things like shopping and taking me out.
:03:59. > :04:09.Driving is out the window. I can't shower. I was an active mum to this.
:04:10. > :04:14.Sorry. Take care. And you. She's not alone. There are more than 56,000
:04:15. > :04:18.trauma and orthopaedic patients waiting for surgery and one in five
:04:19. > :04:27.of those has waited more than 26 weeks. Aberdare, the constituency
:04:28. > :04:30.Anne collude has held for 30 years. I asked her to see the complaints
:04:31. > :04:42.she says she has received about the Welsh NHS. I never thought I would
:04:43. > :04:47.be deluged and they're still coming in. Sometimes people send e-mails,
:04:48. > :04:55.sometimes people send letters, sometimes they send a whole file.
:04:56. > :05:02.And they're from all over Wales. Probably in all of boxes you would
:05:03. > :05:05.find about three that are saying, "I've had very good treatment in the
:05:06. > :05:10.NHS." Did you imagine that this would be the sort of response you
:05:11. > :05:17.would get? No. Never. I just never thought that I would be deluged.
:05:18. > :05:21.That's the only word I can used. There are letters, phone calls and
:05:22. > :05:26.e-mails and they're still coming in. She was so concerned that she sent a
:05:27. > :05:31.summary of the complaints to the First Minister, Carwyn Jones. This
:05:32. > :05:35.all started when she complained over the care she said her husband
:05:36. > :05:41.received before his died nearly two years ago at the University Hospital
:05:42. > :05:46.of Wales. I had no idea that Owen was going to die in that hospital.
:05:47. > :05:49.And I imagine a lot of people take people into hospital and believe the
:05:50. > :05:58.same things. How do you reflect on him? He was a fighter. He should
:05:59. > :06:03.have been alive to carry on the fight, but I'm carrying on the
:06:04. > :06:10.fight, not just for him, but I hope for a lot of others too. And that's
:06:11. > :06:15.exactly what she is doing. There are increasing complaints about nurses
:06:16. > :06:21.who fail to show care and compassion to their patients. What exactly will
:06:22. > :06:25.the Prime Minister do about that? I think the honourable lady speaks for
:06:26. > :06:29.the whole House and country in raising this issue. David Cameron
:06:30. > :06:34.went on to ask Ann Clwyd to write the English review that prompted the
:06:35. > :06:39.flood of Welsh complaints, which she summarised and sent to Carwyn Jones.
:06:40. > :06:44.We have obtained that summary, using Freedom of Information Act. It
:06:45. > :06:50.precised 75 different cases, but the fist minister said he hadn't seen
:06:51. > :06:54.enough. -- First Minister said he hadn't seen enough. I've asked her.
:06:55. > :06:58.The minister for health has asked her. She has produced anonymous
:06:59. > :07:03.comments, we don't know whether they are correct or not and they can't be
:07:04. > :07:07.investigated. We have asked her on more than one occasion. Wouldn't it
:07:08. > :07:11.not have been reasonable to ring those people and ask if you could
:07:12. > :07:18.refer the details. Tim, if someone had put the resources in to do that
:07:19. > :07:22.we might have been able to. But... Would you... I can't accept that
:07:23. > :07:25.argument. When the First Minister criticised you for not supplying
:07:26. > :07:33.details. If you don't think the details were there in the several
:07:34. > :07:40.pages of letters then what else can you do? She also highlighted longs
:07:41. > :07:43.waits for diagnostic tests and sometimes for surgery, compared to
:07:44. > :07:49.England. Those are shocking figures. : That means some people are going
:07:50. > :07:55.to get worse because they haven't been diagnosed. Some people are
:07:56. > :08:00.going to die because by the time they actually get treatments it may
:08:01. > :08:06.be too late. People like Ron Jones from Newport. Ron was a Labour
:08:07. > :08:11.councillor and a big personality. He was I have bubbly character and he
:08:12. > :08:16.loved a laugh aned joke. He -- and a joke. He would drive you mad in the
:08:17. > :08:21.morning. He was like Fred Astaire bouncing around like a rubber ball.
:08:22. > :08:26.Ron's health began to fail and in May 2012 he was told he needed heart
:08:27. > :08:33.surgery at the University Hospital of Wales, in Cardiff. We went down
:08:34. > :08:39.to see the cardiologist and he said there were three to six months
:08:40. > :08:45.waiting for him. He should have had a triple bypass in 26 weeks, but the
:08:46. > :08:48.wait went on and on. I was annoyed. I was annoyed to think ease waiting
:08:49. > :08:54.all this time and wasn't getting better and to me it was an urgent
:08:55. > :08:59.operation. You could see him deteriorating. He was losing weight
:09:00. > :09:05.and couldn't water the garden. His angina spray, he was using as much
:09:06. > :09:09.as 15 or 20 times a day and all he kept saying was, "Promise me, if
:09:10. > :09:13.anything happens to me before this operation, that you won't leave it
:09:14. > :09:19.there." Last August, Ron was taken ill in the middle of the night. He
:09:20. > :09:24.come out of the bathroom and he said I need an ambulance, I'm dying.
:09:25. > :09:27.Initially you thought if he was taken in as an emergency this might
:09:28. > :09:33.actually mean he would get the operation that would save his life?
:09:34. > :09:36.Yes. He didn't make it? No. Ron died as paramedics tried to save him. He
:09:37. > :09:44.had waited 15 months for heart operation. It was a shock. I didn't
:09:45. > :09:54.expect him to die. I didn't honestly expect him to die. 15 months of just
:09:55. > :09:59.waiting for a phone call. Latest figures show 477 patients waiting
:10:00. > :10:04.for heart surgery. At the two specialist centres in South Wales,
:10:05. > :10:07.at one in Swansea and here at Cardiff's University Hospital of
:10:08. > :10:14.Wales. Adam Cairns is in charge here and we asked him about Ron Jones'
:10:15. > :10:18.case. Can you feel her pain and understand what it must be like to
:10:19. > :10:23.watch the person you love deteriorate in front of you? I can.
:10:24. > :10:30.I can. As I say, I'm deeply sorry that the family's had what I think
:10:31. > :10:33.must be a truly awful experience. That ex-emifies why it is so
:10:34. > :10:39.important that we deal with this problem and we make sure that we get
:10:40. > :10:42.to a position, which is our plan, to ensure that patients who need this
:10:43. > :10:46.kind of surgery get it more quickly. Ron Jones was one of 238 people
:10:47. > :10:50.waiting here for heart surgery when he died. Some patients are being
:10:51. > :10:55.sent out of Wales to ease the pressure, but there are still 119 on
:10:56. > :10:59.the list. How will you reduce the lists? How many extra patients will
:11:00. > :11:06.you deal with and how many are going to be sent outside Wales? Currently,
:11:07. > :11:11.we are working to finalise a plan with the commissioners to increase
:11:12. > :11:16.our capacity in this hospital by 300 cases a year. In order to do that,
:11:17. > :11:20.we have already recruited a further surgeon and we'll need to employ
:11:21. > :11:26.more surgeons in order to make sure we can achieve that. We think we can
:11:27. > :11:30.deliver that. The health board told us it has a shortage of intensive
:11:31. > :11:34.care beds and asked the Government for more money to increase capacity,
:11:35. > :11:40.especially for heart patients. Last year, there were more than 37,000
:11:41. > :11:44.operations cancelled across Wales for non-clinical reasons, including
:11:45. > :11:47.lack of staff and beds. Including those in intensive care. When my
:11:48. > :11:54.surgical colleagues knock at my door and asked for beds and I'm saying,
:11:55. > :12:00.no, sorry I'm not doing that without having fully looked at what the
:12:01. > :12:07.options are and how can I create a bed? And that's a situation which is
:12:08. > :12:14.going on in every Welsh hospital, maybe not on a daily basis, but
:12:15. > :12:18.certainly perhaps a weekly base -- basis, where there is pressure for
:12:19. > :12:23.beds. If you're the patient whose operation is postponed for whatever
:12:24. > :12:29.reason, you are going to be traumatised, but it might also be
:12:30. > :12:33.that the physical nature of the disease process could be adversely
:12:34. > :12:39.affected and it could become inoperable. You might die as a
:12:40. > :12:44.result? Yes. Yes? Absolutely, yes. We have discovered that across Welsh
:12:45. > :12:49.hospitals and despite increasing demand, 2,770 beds have been cut in
:12:50. > :12:57.the last ten years. 312 in the last year a loan. All -- alone. All
:12:58. > :13:02.issues for Ann Clwyd who has been getting unexpected report. Carwyn
:13:03. > :13:06.Jones and Welsh Labour Party may not have respect, but we do and I want
:13:07. > :13:13.you to stand and pay triB tuT to Ann Clwyd, a true champion of our
:13:14. > :13:17.national health -- priB uT to Ann Clwyd -- tribute to Ann Clwyd, a
:13:18. > :13:19.true cammion of our National Health Service. -- champion of our National
:13:20. > :13:40.Health Service. football. How is your relationship
:13:41. > :13:49.with Carwyn Jones these days? I AM not going to talk about that. You
:13:50. > :13:58.may think I AM half asleep, but I AM not. As we stop at Reading
:13:59. > :14:09.services, she hears another complaint. This lady has not
:14:10. > :14:33.followed you from Cardiff? So you are a supporter? Absolutely. I will
:14:34. > :14:39.vote for her myself. Mr Speaker my constituent is seeking to be treated
:14:40. > :14:45.by the English NHS, will the rest that like Prime Minister help her
:14:46. > :14:52.and other NHS refugees who are facing long waiting times because of
:14:53. > :14:57.this government. That refugee is this woman who lives in
:14:58. > :15:04.Monmouthshire. She has to take a cocktail of medication every day.
:15:05. > :15:10.One day I take 100 pills. She takes bile and -- she has bile and gastric
:15:11. > :15:15.problems and has difficulty digesting food. Without these, I'd
:15:16. > :15:20.go downhill quickly. She has been waiting more than six months for an
:15:21. > :15:27.NHS specialist appointments. She borrowed money for a diagnosis at a
:15:28. > :15:32.private hospital in Bristol, but she needs more tests and her money has
:15:33. > :15:38.run out. It is extremely frustrating. I have cried. I have
:15:39. > :15:46.been so upset thinking, how do I make these people listen? Marianne
:15:47. > :15:51.is an artist. Her home is just inside the Welsh border and that is
:15:52. > :15:59.a problem. Right now we are in Wales. Behind you is the river, on
:16:00. > :16:07.the other side is England's. So if you lived half a mile that we? I
:16:08. > :16:15.would be referred to NHS Bristol. You would've the biopsy. And I would
:16:16. > :16:22.have had a full diagnosis of my condition. How does that make you
:16:23. > :16:28.feel? It makes me extremely angry. She is not alone. 125,000 patients
:16:29. > :16:35.are waiting for diagnostic services, more than at any time in
:16:36. > :16:39.the last five years. Marion asked for the health board to pay for her
:16:40. > :16:46.to be treated at Bristol but they have refused twice. She has appealed
:16:47. > :16:52.directly to the Health Secretary in England although we had no authority
:16:53. > :17:01.over health matters in Wales. Marianna is amongst thousands of
:17:02. > :17:04.patients waiting for treatment. I AM meeting Doctor Alison who represents
:17:05. > :17:11.gastroenterologists from across the country. You concerned about delays
:17:12. > :17:18.and the time it takes for people to receive treatment? I have to say
:17:19. > :17:26.that I'm concerned about this. Weights are longer than they are in
:17:27. > :17:31.England. There are clear current symptoms of bowel cancer and they
:17:32. > :17:36.should be seen promptly but those with vague symptoms often do have to
:17:37. > :17:42.wait quite a lot longer than the shoot. It is not just new patients,
:17:43. > :17:48.there are also long waits for those with conditions which needs regular
:17:49. > :17:53.monitoring. There are examples of hospitals in Wales which I3 years
:17:54. > :17:58.behind their recall dates. Patients turned up on the list with cancer
:17:59. > :18:07.already established when you are trying to prevent cancer. Ann Clwyd
:18:08. > :18:17.is seeing another constituent on a waiting list. Biden needs me free
:18:18. > :18:21.but he has no idea when will be. The referral was December last year. I
:18:22. > :18:30.rang up a couple of weeks ago and was told that the original 18 week
:18:31. > :18:35.period is now 26 weeks at least. I AM considering seeing a patient --
:18:36. > :18:41.specialist myself, paying go private. I do not think it is right
:18:42. > :18:45.that in a constituency like this where people have worked hard all
:18:46. > :18:50.their lives, they have to dip into their savings to get a quick
:18:51. > :18:55.diagnosis will stop when you compare with other countries in the UK, for
:18:56. > :19:02.instance England, Wales does not look too good. Most people when
:19:03. > :19:09.asked say we are satisfied with the work the NHS is doing in Wales. That
:19:10. > :19:15.is good. A lot of people have good experiences with the NHS but at the
:19:16. > :19:19.same time, a minority and a growing minority have not had good
:19:20. > :19:25.experiences and are having to wait or fork out money themselves. Biden
:19:26. > :19:31.paid privately in the end. The health board told us they cannot
:19:32. > :19:50.comment on individual cases but 90% of people have completed treatment
:19:51. > :19:54.within 26 weeks. News of the Nuffield report, an independent
:19:55. > :19:57.review of the NHS in Wales felt there were longer waiting lists for
:19:58. > :20:04.some medical treatments but overall Wales is in line with the rest of
:20:05. > :20:09.the UK. The health minister is launching another initiative. He is
:20:10. > :20:15.keen to accentuate the positive. The survey last week found that nine out
:20:16. > :20:17.of ten are happy with our NHS experience. He says Wales
:20:18. > :20:25.outperforms England when it comes to some cancer waiting times. The
:20:26. > :20:31.proportion of patients waiting more than the 26 week target for
:20:32. > :20:40.treatment has risen from around 8% in 2010 to almost one in five in
:20:41. > :20:44.2014, almost 200,000 people. It is not acceptable to me that people
:20:45. > :20:49.wait longer than the 26 weeks unless there are good clinical reasons why
:20:50. > :20:55.that should be the case. I have made it clear to the NHS that I expect
:20:56. > :20:59.over the next 12 months, weights over 26 weeks are brought down
:21:00. > :21:03.progressively. They came down significantly over the last few
:21:04. > :21:09.months and its spectrum to be brought down and eliminated. The
:21:10. > :21:14.uncomfortable fact is that people are still dying on waiting lists.
:21:15. > :21:20.When people die on waiting lists because they are on the waiting
:21:21. > :21:25.list, that is entirely unacceptable. It is not a new situation, it has
:21:26. > :21:32.been going on for some time and is going on today. If you look at the
:21:33. > :21:35.figures you quoted from for cardiac conditions, you would've seen that
:21:36. > :21:42.the number of people who died on the waiting list Wales has fallen in
:21:43. > :21:47.each of the last three years. The figures are going down. The position
:21:48. > :21:54.is improving. We have since found that the latest figures for 2013 up
:21:55. > :21:59.to 2014 show a rise. 29 patients died while waiting for heart surgery
:22:00. > :22:08.in Wales, 12 more than the year before. We have got Ann Clwyd to
:22:09. > :22:15.meet Jackie Parsons, one of the thousands who wrote to her. Jackie,
:22:16. > :22:19.you have had bad news. Yes, yesterday afternoon I got a
:22:20. > :22:24.telephone call saying that the operation has been cancelled again.
:22:25. > :22:30.How many times has it been cancelled? Three times. Are you
:22:31. > :22:35.asking for special treatment? Absolutely not. I ask for something
:22:36. > :22:43.that people in England get within 18 weeks. No one should be in pain.
:22:44. > :22:49.That is not a high expectation. It is a reasonable expectation. After
:22:50. > :22:53.her appeal to the English Health Secretary who is critical of the
:22:54. > :22:58.management of the NHS in Wales, Marianna has come to Westminster to
:22:59. > :23:06.meet him, accompanied by her local MP David Davis. Hello. I AM good
:23:07. > :23:14.today, thank you. We were not allowed to film their discussion but
:23:15. > :23:22.two hours later... Hello, how was it? It looks like he is not able to
:23:23. > :23:28.do anything for me personally. I do not know where I go from here other
:23:29. > :23:32.than making a lot of noise. David is here because he is a politician and
:23:33. > :23:38.this is a political issue and he wants to make political capital out
:23:39. > :23:42.of it. I think that is very unfair. I AM here because Marianna
:23:43. > :23:49.approached me. I will be there for any constituent who approaches me.
:23:50. > :23:52.Carwyn Jones says the Tories are trying to make political capital out
:23:53. > :23:58.of the NHS. It is an attack on wheels. That may resonate with some
:23:59. > :24:03.people? I think that is disgraceful. It is rubbish. That is something
:24:04. > :24:08.wrong with the NHS in Wales and I will not be silent about it. What
:24:09. > :24:16.will you do from here Marianna? Probably cry when I get home. The
:24:17. > :24:24.NHS in Bristol says it has a duty to users own resources as well as it
:24:25. > :24:28.can. Ann Clwyd believes that the lack of funding by the Welsh
:24:29. > :24:33.Government is one of the key reasons behind the long waiting lists and
:24:34. > :24:39.cancelled operations. Their argument is that they did not have sufficient
:24:40. > :24:43.funds from Westminster. Everybody makes those arguments. Of course
:24:44. > :24:48.there are insufficient funds but they decide how the cake is shared
:24:49. > :24:57.out. If you decide to give a small slice to the NHS, you are taking the
:24:58. > :24:59.decision how you cut spending. You did not ring fence and protect the
:25:00. > :25:05.NHS when it was protected in England. We protected the National
:25:06. > :25:11.Health Service and the social services but the National Health
:25:12. > :25:15.Service relies upon that. Our delayed transfer care figures in
:25:16. > :25:19.Wales at an all-time low whereas in England they are going through the
:25:20. > :25:24.roof and compromising the ability of the NHS to discharge patients when
:25:25. > :25:30.they are fit and ready to be discharged. We did the right thing.
:25:31. > :25:34.Serious concerns have been raised about safety and the quality of
:25:35. > :25:41.patient care in two hospitals in Wales. The Andrews report makes
:25:42. > :25:48.headlines across Britain as evidence of widespread neglect is detailed in
:25:49. > :25:53.our health board. Ann Clwyd says policing of the NHS has two
:25:54. > :25:57.improved. If there was a system of independent regulation in Wales in
:25:58. > :26:07.place then events like this should never happen. An inspection regime
:26:08. > :26:13.is absolutely necessary. I very much hope that the Welsh Government will
:26:14. > :26:17.put this in place very soon. The health minister has ruled out a full
:26:18. > :26:22.enquiry but announced a regime of spot checks in hospitals in Wales
:26:23. > :26:29.and says the NHS in Wales is doing a good job. Does he accept more needs
:26:30. > :26:37.to be done? Reform of the NHS in Wales has been too slow, I agree
:26:38. > :26:41.with that. I AM determined we bring the three major reconfiguration
:26:42. > :26:47.exercises in Wales to a conclusion. I AM determined we will make things
:26:48. > :26:52.happen in as fast and timely way as we can while continuing to respect
:26:53. > :26:57.the rights of people. You by what Ann Clwyd has said about all those?
:26:58. > :27:04.I AM not embarrassed. I agree with some of it and disagree with some
:27:05. > :27:11.other things. Jackie is home from hospital but her operation has been
:27:12. > :27:18.cancelled for the fourth time. I had the stockings on to go to theatre,
:27:19. > :27:23.the arrow on my leg, I'd had the pre-med and I was just waiting for
:27:24. > :27:30.the final injection and real me off. I was ready to go. I was absolutely
:27:31. > :27:36.gutted. It was cancelled at the last moment because the surgeon had not
:27:37. > :27:44.been told she had an allergy to the text. Or cancellations no, it is
:27:45. > :27:50.ridiculous. I have listened to her and I would say I AM very sorry she
:27:51. > :27:56.has had this experience. When I look at this case, there are some very
:27:57. > :28:04.sad aspects to it. I agree. It is terrible to say... The fourth time,
:28:05. > :28:11.how does that sound? I know. This is not something I AM proud of. The day
:28:12. > :28:15.after this interview, Jackie had her operation. Cardiff and Vale health
:28:16. > :28:21.board says it is spending millions of pounds to reduce waiting lists.
:28:22. > :28:27.This morning Marianna heard that her health board had agreed to pay for
:28:28. > :28:33.her to receive treatment from the consultant she has been seeing in
:28:34. > :28:37.Bristol on the NHS. And this woman is still waiting for the outcome of
:28:38. > :28:43.the investigation into the death of her partner while on a waiting list.
:28:44. > :28:47.Ann Clwyd's personal fight for answers over the death of her
:28:48. > :28:53.husband continues. She is on to the second stage of the NHS complaints
:28:54. > :28:57.process. The MP has announced she is not standing again. Do you see this
:28:58. > :29:06.as your last great campaign as an MP? I will not see this as. Because
:29:07. > :29:15.it is not. When I said I was packing up next year, this is just a pause.
:29:16. > :29:26.It does not mean I AM going to shut up.
:29:27. > :29:34.Cheerio. One thing is almost certain, this may not be this
:29:35. > :29:42.rebel's last cause.