:00:00. > :00:00.He used to be a council youth worker.
:00:07. > :00:11.Bosses were warned he posed a risk to children.
:00:12. > :00:13.I knew there was something funny going on.
:00:14. > :00:16.We were all concerned there was some type of grooming going on.
:00:17. > :00:22.Tonight, we ask, why he wasn't he stopped sooner?
:00:23. > :00:26.Nobody joined all the dots and said to somebody in authority,
:00:27. > :00:29.there's a problem here, we've got to do something about this.
:00:30. > :00:32.If people had taken the time and the care, what we've been
:00:33. > :00:40.There are concerns now for hundreds of other children.
:00:41. > :00:43.He should never have been allowed to work with children.
:00:44. > :00:47.Wales' highest-paid council chief is at the centre of this scandal.
:00:48. > :00:50.Tonight, there are calls for him to go.
:00:51. > :00:53.You cannot be the highest-paid chief executive in Wales because
:00:54. > :01:19.you are worth that money and reside over failure, repeated failure.
:01:20. > :01:24.Pembrokeshire Council is once again embroiled in an ugly scandal.
:01:25. > :01:27.In the last few years, it has been accused of failing to
:01:28. > :01:32.A damning report highlighted the fact that
:01:33. > :01:39.It has been accused of putting its own reputation
:01:40. > :01:44.And the jailing of paedophile Mik Smith has put it back
:01:45. > :01:50.Could his crimes have been prevented, and
:01:51. > :01:57.Smith was jailed for six years this month for a sexually abusing
:01:58. > :02:02.an eight-year-old boy, a year after leaving the council.
:02:03. > :02:08.He'd often bring maybe, um, something, some kind
:02:09. > :02:13.of gift or treat, and he'd often shout his hellos and the children
:02:14. > :02:21.I never had any cause for concern with the way he physically played
:02:22. > :02:29.There was never a type of touching whatsoever.
:02:30. > :02:32.But last year, her son told his dad that Smith had sexually
:02:33. > :02:40.I asked my child what had been happening, and he repeated it, at
:02:41. > :02:51.I just felt in a surreal place for months and months,
:02:52. > :02:57.and my husband struggled in a much more overt way than I did.
:02:58. > :03:02.Smith admitted filming his abuse of the young boy, and police had
:03:03. > :03:07.found over 1,000 images of child pornography on his computer.
:03:08. > :03:10.The judge said of particular concern was the fact that Smith had applied
:03:11. > :03:14.for jobs which would give him access to children.
:03:15. > :03:20.He's betrayed us at the highest level of betrayal.
:03:21. > :03:25.My son is too afraid to go to the shop.
:03:26. > :03:30.But there had been warnings years earlier
:03:31. > :03:36.One person who tried to warn officials about the risk Smith
:03:37. > :03:46.When I first met Mik Smith, he became my line manager in 2003,
:03:47. > :03:50.I thought he was a nice guy, and I got on well with him, and he
:03:51. > :03:57.Ten years ago, she, like Smith, was a council youth worker.
:03:58. > :04:00.She saw a disturbing side to him on a trip.
:04:01. > :04:03.I took part in a summer camp in Pembrey, we were all expected to
:04:04. > :04:06.go down for three or four days to camp with youngsters there.
:04:07. > :04:13.Three or four youngsters gravitated straight to him, and one sat down on
:04:14. > :04:20.He put his arms round the child, started rocking
:04:21. > :04:27.the child side to side, and I stared at him, got eye contact with him,
:04:28. > :04:33.thinking, now he's seen me looking, he's going to do something and push
:04:34. > :04:41.Might that be excused as rough and tumble?
:04:42. > :04:46.No, not nowadays, in light of everything, and not with other
:04:47. > :04:52.She was also concerned about the language Smith used with
:04:53. > :04:57.Mik started having chat with one of the other boys next to him,
:04:58. > :05:00.and he asked him to go and do something camp, and the boy didn't
:05:01. > :05:05.want to, and Mik said to him, if you carry on like that, you're not going
:05:06. > :05:24.They were all vulnerable boys, that's the nature of our work.
:05:25. > :05:40.The feeling I got was one of just smugness, pleased with himself.
:05:41. > :05:45.Hairs on the back of my neck standing on end.
:05:46. > :05:48.She complained to officials at Pembrokeshire Council about what
:05:49. > :05:53.she'd witnessed, and started a formal whistle-blowing process.
:05:54. > :05:57.Biddy Rawlence was a UNISON rep at the council.
:05:58. > :06:00.She believes that Sue and her colleagues were right to
:06:01. > :06:06.These people, Sue and her colleagues, were doing their duty to
:06:07. > :06:10.raise issues about a man clearly behaving very inappropriately at
:06:11. > :06:16.There were witness accounts, witness statements, that he'd been
:06:17. > :06:20.seen at summer camp, witnessed by people who worked for children's
:06:21. > :06:25.services in Carmarthenshire, with children on his lap, children
:06:26. > :06:35.And I recall there were some concerns about him
:06:36. > :06:39.She wasn't satisfied with the way the council handled such serious
:06:40. > :06:46.Parents who allow children to go on summer camps
:06:47. > :06:52.and things assume people looking after them are professionally
:06:53. > :07:04.responsible, and clearly, flagrant breach of that in this situation.
:07:05. > :07:07.The council investigated 11 allegations against Mik Smith,
:07:08. > :07:13.including allowing a child to spend the night at his house, sleeping in
:07:14. > :07:21.tents with children, letting a child sit on his lap, talk of cuddle time
:07:22. > :07:25.and being seen alone with children in his car. Smith was
:07:26. > :07:29.working with some of the county's most vulnerable children.
:07:30. > :07:31.He worked in special schools, in youth clubs
:07:32. > :07:37.and often took children away camping or on outdoor pursuits activities.
:07:38. > :07:43.Before working for the council, he'd had a job at a local youth project.
:07:44. > :07:53.We employed him from 2001 till some time in 2003, when he left to
:07:54. > :07:58.take up a job with Pembrokeshire County Council as a youth worker.
:07:59. > :08:01.Ken Jones is chair of trustees at the Tanyard Youth Project
:08:02. > :08:03.in Pembroke, a small independent charity that
:08:04. > :08:12.He was quite professional, he'd been in the field for a long time and had
:08:13. > :08:22.As far as we were concerned, he was the best candidate for the job.
:08:23. > :08:26.Sue Thomas and the others thought Smith posed a risk to children.
:08:27. > :08:29.The council held an internal inquiry into their allegations and brought
:08:30. > :08:36.Eventually, Sue and her colleagues were called to a meeting with Smith.
:08:37. > :08:40.They were told six of the allegations had been upheld, but
:08:41. > :08:48.Smith received a verbal warning and was allowed to carry on working
:08:49. > :09:03.A number of complaints were made about Mik Smith by
:09:04. > :09:11.The council investigated 11 allegations of Mik Smith's
:09:12. > :09:18.inappropriate behaviour in 2005, including that he had a child to
:09:19. > :09:23.stay at his home overnight, but he was given a verbal warning
:09:24. > :09:41.I still can't get my head round it, because there were so many good,
:09:42. > :09:43.hardworking, professional people that came forward with complaints.
:09:44. > :09:51.I cannot understand why we were not listened to.
:09:52. > :09:53.Sue Thomas was deeply unhappy with the outcome
:09:54. > :09:56.of the council's investigation, so she went a step further.
:09:57. > :09:59.I emailed right through the Education Department, up to
:10:00. > :10:07.Bryn Parry Jones, giving the team's concerns, putting the points across.
:10:08. > :10:09.Writing to the chief executive, as you did, and to senior members
:10:10. > :10:15.of the council was possibly taking the nuclear option?
:10:16. > :10:20.I felt that I had no option other than to do that, and again, naively,
:10:21. > :10:24.I thought that if I went higher up at some stage, some level, someone
:10:25. > :10:33.In the letter she was sent from the chief executive, he tells her, your
:10:34. > :10:37.perceived problem seems to relate to your personal circumstances
:10:38. > :10:43.And he tells her there were established procedures for her to
:10:44. > :10:51.follow and it would be inappropriate for him to intervene personally.
:10:52. > :10:58.He suggested she ask other colleagues for help.
:10:59. > :11:02.Couldn't he take five minutes out of his day to sit back
:11:03. > :11:14.They got it very wrong, and they put priorities of image
:11:15. > :11:25.and ego before even considering safeguarding children.
:11:26. > :11:27.Bryn Parry Jones said he'd been assured that
:11:28. > :11:32.the allegations were dealt with under child-protection procedures.
:11:33. > :11:34.Assembly Member Joyce Watson was a Pembrokeshire Councillor
:11:35. > :11:40.She says she was never told about Sue Thomas' whistle-blowing
:11:41. > :11:47.In her opinion, the council got it badly wrong.
:11:48. > :11:50.There were certainly warnings, there were certainly red flags going
:11:51. > :11:53.up there, so if it was felt that a verbal warning for that
:11:54. > :12:00.inappropriate behaviour in 2005, and there was inappropriate behaviour,
:12:01. > :12:05.what should have happened was close monitoring after that, very close
:12:06. > :12:14.monitoring after that, and for all the time when he was near children.
:12:15. > :12:18.Somebody somewhere should have been overseeing his actions all
:12:19. > :12:33.Smith had worked at a number of schools and children's charities.
:12:34. > :12:36.He also volunteered with Cubs and Scouts.
:12:37. > :12:39.By 2005, he had become a trustee at the Tanyard Youth Project.
:12:40. > :12:42.Did Ken Jones know about the allegations made
:12:43. > :12:58.If that was the case, we would have expected to have been
:12:59. > :13:05.And I know it's only hypothetical, but would have recommended to
:13:06. > :13:08.my fellow board members that we terminate his membership
:13:09. > :13:19.of the trustee board, and they would have concurred.
:13:20. > :13:22.But could the council argue that it was simply a confidential
:13:23. > :13:27.They might argue that, but I don't think it's a valid argument,
:13:28. > :13:37.The director of Education and Children's Services says he
:13:38. > :13:42.But he's confident that if these allegations were raised
:13:43. > :13:47.now, they would involve clear and effective information sharing.
:13:48. > :13:49.Mik Smith's case has raised serious questions
:13:50. > :14:11.about the council's judgement and whether it could and should
:14:12. > :14:16.It leaves me wondering what on earth those officers were
:14:17. > :14:19.thinking at the time, how on earth they felt their obligations to
:14:20. > :14:24.children, young people and families were being taken properly forward.
:14:25. > :14:29.You are in a position of absolute trust as an officer of council.
:14:30. > :14:35.People talk about how damaging an abuse of trust can be.
:14:36. > :14:41.If that can happen for an individual, that's one thing, but
:14:42. > :14:44.if everyone around you, including your manager, abuses that trust by
:14:45. > :14:47.placing that employee in a situation where they'll have access to
:14:48. > :14:54.children and there's any doubt in one's own mind that's a safe thing
:14:55. > :15:01.to do, then that's abuse of trust as well as being grossly incompetent.
:15:02. > :15:05.We've discovered that a report was written on Smith's case.
:15:06. > :15:09.Until now, it has remained confidential.
:15:10. > :15:11.It was written by an independent social worker
:15:12. > :15:15.bought in by Pembrokeshire Council to assess the allegations.
:15:16. > :15:19.We've spoken to her and she told us that, based
:15:20. > :15:27.on the evidence, she was surprised that Smith had remained in his job.
:15:28. > :15:35.Sue Thomas was dismissed in early 2006 due to long-term illness.
:15:36. > :15:38.I packed my bag and got out of Pembrokeshire as quickly as I could.
:15:39. > :15:51.We've discovered that in 2009 further allegations about
:15:52. > :15:54.Smith were made to the council, this time by a worried parent.
:15:55. > :16:00.We have disguised the man's appearance to protect
:16:01. > :16:15.Mik Smith wanted to take my son camping to Pembrey to build
:16:16. > :16:17.by a worried parent. We have disguised the man?s
:16:18. > :16:19.appearance to protect his son?s identity.
:16:20. > :16:21.Mik Smith wanted to take my son camping to Pembrey
:16:22. > :16:23.to build morale and something didn?t seem right
:16:24. > :16:38.The father was suspicious, and refused to co-operate.
:16:39. > :16:41.He put him in a vehicle, he thought it funny to shake the vehicle
:16:42. > :16:45.The council investigated and agreed Smith had been at fault.
:16:46. > :16:49.But he says another incident made him even more concerned.
:16:50. > :16:51.My son had been swimming, and he said to me,
:16:52. > :16:54.Mik Smith was taking pictures of the children in changing rooms.
:16:55. > :16:59.I went round the back of the school and found Mik Smith's
:17:00. > :17:03.He was in the driver's seat, and I opened the passenger door
:17:04. > :17:09.He tried to get the camera back, I took the camera and left.
:17:10. > :17:11.He says as he drove away, he looked at the screen
:17:12. > :17:16.There were images of children in the changing room,
:17:17. > :17:24.It's hard for me to say, but I'm guessing anyone taking
:17:25. > :17:28.pictures of children in a changing room would be inappropriate.
:17:29. > :17:38.I went through quite a few on the screen, it was very difficult
:17:39. > :17:48.to see, as I was trying to drive away from the scene.
:17:49. > :17:56.He was so shocked that he told the council and complained. I explained
:17:57. > :18:00.my concerns. I was not graphic about what I saw on the camera as I do not
:18:01. > :18:04.believe that I saw anything which was graphic, without being sure. But
:18:05. > :18:09.I certainly said, inappropriate images, and I know that, because I
:18:10. > :18:14.saw them on screen. This is a copy of the letter he says he handed to
:18:15. > :18:17.the council. The chief executive confirmed they do have letters of
:18:18. > :18:23.complaint on file from this man, but they do not refer in any this
:18:24. > :18:27.particular incident. In the same year, the council was embroiled in a
:18:28. > :18:37.child sex abuse scandal involving one of its headteachers. 56-year-old
:18:38. > :18:42.David Thornely was convicted of nine counts... The case revealed serious
:18:43. > :18:47.doubts about the way Pembrokeshire council handled allegations against
:18:48. > :18:52.its staff who worked with children. Following the case, outside agencies
:18:53. > :18:55.began taking an interest in how Pembrokeshire Council had dealt with
:18:56. > :19:06.allegations of "professional" abuse. An investigation began. The
:19:07. > :19:12.care services watchdog says shortcomings are long-standing and
:19:13. > :19:15.systemic. The report investigated the handling of 25 allegations of
:19:16. > :19:26."professional" abuse against children I council staff, between
:19:27. > :19:30.2007 and 2011. But Smith's case was not one of them. When Sue Thomas
:19:31. > :19:35.read the headlines about the child protection scandal at Pembrokeshire
:19:36. > :19:40.Council she contacted the Welsh government run but I immediately got
:19:41. > :19:47.hold of Gwenda Thomas, I got hold of the lead investigator at CCIW, as
:19:48. > :19:50.well as Estyn, to ask if the 2005 case could be re-examined. The Welsh
:19:51. > :19:56.government was seriously worried about what was going on in
:19:57. > :20:00.Pembrokeshire. The inspectorate has asked Pembrokeshire County Council
:20:01. > :20:05.and Dyfed-Powys Police to review all 25 cases of alleged official abuse
:20:06. > :20:12.in education services which were made between 2007 and 2011, plus one
:20:13. > :20:18.additional case which has subsequently been reported.
:20:19. > :20:21.Until now, the details of those cases had not been made public, but
:20:22. > :20:27.tonight, we can reveal that the additional case involved more
:20:28. > :20:33.allegations against Mik Smith, as well as concerns raised in 2005.
:20:34. > :20:39.There were also fresh allegations, and plaints about his inappropriate
:20:40. > :20:43.and reckless behaviour. Inspectors discovered that Mik Smith had
:20:44. > :20:46.applied to become a foster carer. Despite the allegations, he was
:20:47. > :20:52.given a reference by a manager at the council. Another complaint was
:20:53. > :20:59.made in 2009 referring to his reckless diving of children who were
:21:00. > :21:03.in his care, in his Land Rover. He apologises but he is allowed again
:21:04. > :21:07.to continue in his post. And it is another two years before he is
:21:08. > :21:11.eventually sacked, and only after a review of the case has been ordered.
:21:12. > :21:16.What it tells me is that nobody within the local authority has taken
:21:17. > :21:19.an overall look at everything that has emerged around one of their
:21:20. > :21:23.officers, and has not joined up all the dots and said to somebody in
:21:24. > :21:27.authority, there is a problem here, and we have got to do something
:21:28. > :21:32.about this. The council says it has changed its
:21:33. > :21:35.procedures, and the management of the education department. But none
:21:36. > :21:40.of those involved in making decisions in 2005 still work for the
:21:41. > :21:45.council, and it says it is confident the failings of nine years ago would
:21:46. > :21:49.not be repeated now. Following the safeguarding scandal, the council
:21:50. > :21:52.was accused of doing too much of its business in the shadows, that it
:21:53. > :21:57.operated a closed culture, and lacked transparency, and that
:21:58. > :22:03.officers failed to sharing formation with elected members. One councillor
:22:04. > :22:11.has told us that there are still some staff who are afraid to voice
:22:12. > :22:15.their concerns. The Labour opposition group in Pembrokeshire is
:22:16. > :22:20.led by Paul Miller. I would say that there is very much a culture of fear
:22:21. > :22:24.in Pembrokeshire County Council. We live in a very remote part of Wales,
:22:25. > :22:28.on the west coast. These people are on good salaries, with good
:22:29. > :22:33.pensions, and with almost zero prospect of finding a similarly paid
:22:34. > :22:36.job out in the private sector in Pembrokeshire. So, it would be fair
:22:37. > :22:41.to say that they are extremely nervous about coming forward with
:22:42. > :22:44.concerns. The council does have clear whistle-blowing policies, but
:22:45. > :22:51.he says that some remain reluctant to use them. So, do they feel able
:22:52. > :22:55.to raise concerns with me, for example, as their elected member, or
:22:56. > :23:01.as the leader of the opposition? Absolutely not. I mean, some do, but
:23:02. > :23:04.they are very keen to stress to me how nervous they feel about doing
:23:05. > :23:08.so, and how they feel that their job is very much on the line should they
:23:09. > :23:14.be caught doing so. And it is a dangerous place to be. And I am in a
:23:15. > :23:17.dangerous place, having stuck my head above the parapet. A dangerous
:23:18. > :23:24.place, what do you mean by that, you mean potentially career wrecking?
:23:25. > :23:28.Yes, absolutely. You are taking a risk if you take on the
:23:29. > :23:35.establishment in Pembrokeshire. It is a strong claim which Bryn Parry
:23:36. > :23:39.Jones says is unfair and untrue. But Paul Miller was not the only one to
:23:40. > :23:43.raise concerns with me in this corner of the world about the fear
:23:44. > :23:49.about speaking out against Pembrokeshire County Council. Biddy
:23:50. > :23:54.Rawlence felt the same when she worked there. It is about the
:23:55. > :23:58.culture of an organisation, where it is so closed, where people are made
:23:59. > :24:03.to feel that they will end up being pilloried if they raise their head
:24:04. > :24:15.above the parapet. People feel frightened to speak out about a
:24:16. > :24:21.potential abuse. That is dangerous. Was Sue Thomas let down? Badly. Bryn
:24:22. > :24:26.Parry Jones told us he did not realise that Sue Thomas had invoked
:24:27. > :24:28.the whistle-blowing policy in 2005, because of reasons of
:24:29. > :24:31.confidentiality. The Children's Commissioner says the case raises
:24:32. > :24:35.important questions about the way whistle-blowers are treated. I think
:24:36. > :24:39.we should change this idea that whistle-blowers are the problem, and
:24:40. > :24:44.actually, we should be recognising and championing the bravery of
:24:45. > :24:48.people who are prepared to step up, at the risk of their own job, and
:24:49. > :24:52.say, I think there is something going wrong here. We should be
:24:53. > :24:57.congratulating them and we should be recognising what she has done in
:24:58. > :25:02.this case. Complaints were made about Mik Smith in 2005, and also by
:25:03. > :25:08.this father. He should never have been allowed to work with children.
:25:09. > :25:14.Rightly or wrongly, I have had to challenge a lot of decisions. I
:25:15. > :25:17.guess I am seen as somebody who will complain a lot, but I think my
:25:18. > :25:21.complaints have been quite justified. Bryn Parry Jones told us
:25:22. > :25:27.that when letters from the father arrived in 2009 and 2011, he was
:25:28. > :25:35.away from his office, and matters were dealt with by others. But
:25:36. > :25:39.should he have done more? I am not in a position to judge what he did
:25:40. > :25:43.and did not do, but on the face of it, the chief executive of any
:25:44. > :25:46.organisation, or to give really a local authority, that is where the
:25:47. > :25:49.buck stops, you have to make sure that you are well briefed by your
:25:50. > :25:52.officers, you understand what is going on and you issue and
:25:53. > :25:56.instruction about what is going to happen next. I would have expected
:25:57. > :25:59.the chief executive would have had a briefing, and if I was the chief
:26:00. > :26:03.executive and I did not know that was going on in my local authority,
:26:04. > :26:08.and I found out subsequently that it was being kept from me, then I would
:26:09. > :26:11.want to know why. Smith was eventually suspended in 2011
:26:12. > :26:17.following new complaints about his driving. His he was sacked in
:26:18. > :26:21.January 2012. The council said it did not find any evidence of
:26:22. > :26:25.criminal wrongdoing, and there were no allegations of child abuse. It
:26:26. > :26:28.says it's deeply regrets that there were significant failings in the
:26:29. > :26:34.disciplinary standards in its education directorate in 2005. The
:26:35. > :26:41.process was fundamentally flawed, and lacked effective risk management
:26:42. > :26:45.Smith sexually abused his victim in 2013 after he was sacked. The
:26:46. > :26:52.child's mother said he had simply explained away his dismissal. My
:26:53. > :26:55.husband genuinely believed that Mik had been dismissed. There was
:26:56. > :26:59.something about a Land Rover, something about having a child on
:27:00. > :27:05.his lap or not driving safely? It just seemed that he had gone over
:27:06. > :27:11.the top, -- that they had gone over the top, that Mik was a victim, that
:27:12. > :27:16.he was a good youth worker. She feels let down by the council. Well,
:27:17. > :27:21.as far as I can see, if people had taken the time and the care to do
:27:22. > :27:25.their jobs properly, what we have been through might have been
:27:26. > :27:30.avoided. And what have you been through? We have been through hell.
:27:31. > :27:34.We are still going through it. We cannot live here any more. She now
:27:35. > :27:39.wants an inquiry into the council's handling of the case and is calling
:27:40. > :27:43.on the chief executive to re-sign. He is in a position of huge
:27:44. > :27:46.responsibility for the people of Pembrokeshire, who need to live in a
:27:47. > :27:50.Safeway. We are not safe, do not feel safe. He probably does. But
:27:51. > :28:04.sure he should not keep his job, no! Bryn Parry Jones has refused to be
:28:05. > :28:06.interviewed for this programme, but in response to questions we have put
:28:07. > :28:13.to him, he has admitted that there were some failures in the way Mik
:28:14. > :28:20.Smith's case was handled. But for some, that is there have been
:28:21. > :28:23.several calls for him to resign from his ?223,000 a year job, most
:28:24. > :28:28.recently over a controversial pension scheme. Smith's case has put
:28:29. > :28:32.him in the headlines again. I think it is time for him to go and I am
:28:33. > :28:37.not shy of saying that. He has been the permanency in all of the
:28:38. > :28:43.negative reports that have been there, and there have been a number
:28:44. > :28:47.of them. And is he, as the man at the top, the Persian who should take
:28:48. > :28:53.ultimate responsibility? Absolutely, you cannot be the highest-paid chief
:28:54. > :28:57.executive in Wales, because you are worth that money, and wheeze eyed
:28:58. > :29:03.over failure, repeated failure. Smith has been jailed for six years.
:29:04. > :29:07.The council says he is not the subject of any continuing criminal
:29:08. > :29:14.investigation, and it has written to 150 families, asking them to get in
:29:15. > :29:17.touch if they are worried. Anybody watching this programme tonight who
:29:18. > :29:20.has a concern about Pembrokeshire and does not have confidence in
:29:21. > :29:23.contacting the authority should remember that they can always get in
:29:24. > :29:28.touch with me as the Children's Commissioner for Wales. He has now
:29:29. > :29:32.promised to carry out his own investigation into Pembrokeshire's
:29:33. > :29:36.handling of the Smith case. I think what you are raising our very
:29:37. > :29:41.serious allegations which probably need a good, independent look. If I
:29:42. > :29:45.take the view that things which happened to children in the past
:29:46. > :29:51.could help improve the lives of children today, then I have the
:29:52. > :29:54.remit to take a look at it. Sue Thomas was proved right about Smith,
:29:55. > :30:00.but she says that is little comfort to her, or to his victim. It would
:30:01. > :30:05.be nice to have an apology from them, for what I was put through for
:30:06. > :30:10.those 8-9 months of my life, yes. The fact that we were correct about
:30:11. > :30:16.it, and perhaps outside agencies will look at it again, and I am sure
:30:17. > :30:25.that will bring closure for me, if that happens. There was and is a
:30:26. > :30:31.dark side to him. He needs to live a different way, so that that horrible
:30:32. > :30:35.monster Park is not what is defining him. If it is, then he needs to stay
:30:36. > :30:39.in prison for ever.