:00:07. > :00:15.In some places, it's getting harder to see the doctor.
:00:16. > :00:19.The wife had to press redial 240 times.
:00:20. > :00:26.GPs say there are too many patients, and too few of them.
:00:27. > :00:28.We meet doctors retiring early because they say the job
:00:29. > :00:39.Fewer doctors, increasing demands, and something has got to give.
:00:40. > :00:40.There aren't enough new doctors to replace
:00:41. > :00:42.those who are leaving, and the pressure is
:00:43. > :00:51.There are GPs out there that are burning out
:00:52. > :00:54.and that's why I worry for my future if I continue
:00:55. > :00:57.So what does this mean for us, the patients?
:00:58. > :01:00.We're with a former NHS insider to ask what can be done.
:01:01. > :01:08.The general public are on the street saying, no, we want our old services
:01:09. > :01:14.even if it is killing people, and that's a real challenge.
:01:15. > :01:17.This was 8am last month in Tenby and a queue has
:01:18. > :01:24.These patients say it's the best way to get
:01:25. > :01:31.They need to spend more money on west Wales.
:01:32. > :01:38.We are more vulnerable and the system has been like it since I
:01:39. > :01:41.moved down here 15 years ago. At this surgery, like many others, they
:01:42. > :01:44.say there are not enough doctors to meet demand.
:01:45. > :01:47.And things got so bad for this surgery in Milford Haven last month,
:01:48. > :02:09.The practice will be under extreme strain, please only request
:02:10. > :02:11.appointments if they are genuine. -- emergency appointments.
:02:12. > :02:13.And patients at this health centre in Pembroke Dock have been
:02:14. > :02:15.complaining about getting an appointment there.
:02:16. > :02:17.The way they do their appointment system is really...it
:02:18. > :02:21.They open the lines at 8am and you can be 25 past eight,
:02:22. > :02:23.quarter to nine hanging on waiting to see if you can
:02:24. > :02:27.100 times in 20 minutes, trying to ring on a mobile especially.
:02:28. > :02:33.The wife was trying to get an appointment for herself.
:02:34. > :02:46.It's frustrating when you can't get an appointment to see your GP
:02:47. > :02:51.It's one of the things that gets patients most worked up
:02:52. > :02:57.We've been filming in surgeries to see why the system is struggling
:02:58. > :03:06.to cope and why GPs don't want to work in some
:03:07. > :03:10.areas, and what it means for you, the patient.
:03:11. > :03:13.One of the practices that's come in for criticism in Pembrokeshire
:03:14. > :03:17.invited us in to see the pressure they're under.
:03:18. > :03:26.They, like the others, say they don't have enough doctors.
:03:27. > :03:29.I would say we are about one and a half whole equivalents,
:03:30. > :03:35.We did advertise for about 18 months through all the journals,
:03:36. > :03:41.We've noticed as well the number of doctors coming
:03:42. > :03:46.And what we used to find was if they trained here they often
:03:47. > :03:48.stayed here so that source has dried up.
:03:49. > :03:51.We've tried to advertise outside Wales but that's failed and we've
:03:52. > :03:59.also lost doctors from the surgery who have emigrated out of the UK.
:04:00. > :04:04.Dr Thanujah is a registrar, one of the health centre's newest recruits.
:04:05. > :04:13.She told us about a typical working day there.
:04:14. > :04:21.On an average day I come into work, I do a bit of admin, I start my
:04:22. > :04:25.morning surgery and I have roughly about 12 patients to see in the
:04:26. > :04:30.morning and each one is allocated ten minutes. On average down here I
:04:31. > :04:36.will have four home visits to do each day. I will come back into the
:04:37. > :04:40.surgery, look at any paperwork, blood results that need action in,
:04:41. > :04:44.then my surgery starts again. Once afternoon surgery has finished,
:04:45. > :04:47.there might be more paperwork that needs doing before I go home.
:04:48. > :04:51.We find the demands from patient exceed what we are able to supply
:04:52. > :04:55.We have improved that lately because we have got more nurse
:04:56. > :05:02.practitioners and advanced clinical practitioners working for us
:05:03. > :05:06.and so are able to offer more appointments with those
:05:07. > :05:09.In response to complaints, the surgery's also changed
:05:10. > :05:11.the appointment system to try to improve access,
:05:12. > :05:14.but without enough doctors they are struggling.
:05:15. > :05:16.And they're leaving, including their most recent recruit,
:05:17. > :05:31.I feel that they have a better worklife balance out there. They
:05:32. > :05:37.also have better services, and patients out there in private care
:05:38. > :05:43.can book a 20 minute appointment. I think that gives the GP enough time
:05:44. > :05:49.to address the needs of the patient safely and adequately. There are GPs
:05:50. > :05:55.out there that are burning out and that's a shame. That's what I worry
:05:56. > :05:58.for my future if I continue to work in this health service.
:05:59. > :06:00.It's 8am and I'm at the Gardden Road surgery
:06:01. > :06:10.The same doctors have been looking after the same patients here for up
:06:11. > :06:21.It's a traditional family general practice.
:06:22. > :06:25.Just see how we are getting on. No ankles swelling?
:06:26. > :06:29.A General Practice is an independent business and doctors are partners
:06:30. > :06:33.There used to be five partners but by next April there'll
:06:34. > :06:50.And you have been there ever since? Yes, full-time.
:06:51. > :07:00.Yes, and we are very lucky to have had that, with mentors to show the
:07:01. > :07:01.way. Dr Coward says it's the pressure
:07:02. > :07:04.that's driving out older doctors. He is about to come down
:07:05. > :07:07.to two days a week. He's failing to recruit younger full
:07:08. > :07:10.time partners because they're put So you have got that perfect storm -
:07:11. > :07:18.fewer doctors, increasing demands Patients like Eleanor Valentine
:07:19. > :07:25.don't want to lose doctors who've I've been with this
:07:26. > :07:39.practice since I was born. Don't know where I'd
:07:40. > :07:41.be without them. But Dr Coward has had enough
:07:42. > :07:49.and is planning to semi retire. I'm going part time in September
:07:50. > :08:01.and Dr McCaddon is going in March. Today he is having to spell out
:08:02. > :08:13.the changes to other patients. With so few people coming
:08:14. > :08:18.through the system we will have five retired
:08:19. > :08:37.doctors coming in. I didn't know about this until a few
:08:38. > :08:39.days ago. I am quite happy now that I know this practice is going to
:08:40. > :08:41.continue. The number of GPs in Wales
:08:42. > :08:44.has gone up by 8% over But headcount alone doesn't
:08:45. > :08:50.tell the whole story. And doctors leaders in Wales say
:08:51. > :09:02.with more GPs wanting to work part time, and with patient demands
:09:03. > :09:04.growing, far more GPs Replacing those leaving,
:09:05. > :09:13.whether young or old, is a problem, because the trainees
:09:14. > :09:21.aren't coming through. I think there has to become fewer
:09:22. > :09:24.places... Malcolm Lewis trains
:09:25. > :09:26.the next generation of GPs. They haven't attracted
:09:27. > :09:28.enough students from medical school for years
:09:29. > :09:30.so a shortfall's been building. And future projections
:09:31. > :09:32.of the workforce paint Given we have only something
:09:33. > :09:42.like 2,500 headcount GPs in Wales, to have a potential shortfall of GPs
:09:43. > :09:49.maybe 700 by maybe 2024 is that's According to the Kings Fund,
:09:50. > :09:58.a health think tank, only one in ten GP trainees surveyed
:09:59. > :10:01.in England plans to work The Wales Deanery say
:10:02. > :10:16.it's much the same here. I think we are maybe the generation
:10:17. > :10:21.that sees ourselves as may be more mobile, not staying in one location
:10:22. > :10:25.for our whole career. Entering a partnership makes it difficult to be
:10:26. > :10:27.so mobile and move from one location after five, ten years.
:10:28. > :10:28.There's also a geographical divide opening up.
:10:29. > :10:31.Of these five trainees, only one could imagine herself
:10:32. > :10:35.practicing any distance away from a big city.
:10:36. > :10:46.plans would maybe to move further west. More long-term plans.
:10:47. > :10:51.Facilities in and around Cardiff and along the M4 corridor art may be
:10:52. > :10:56.better in some senses than rural locations. Other things that put
:10:57. > :11:00.people off working in rural rural areas is the workload, they are sure
:11:01. > :11:04.of partners and having to cover extra workload, you feel if you went
:11:05. > :11:05.there there would be other work to do.
:11:06. > :11:07.It's these views that lead some to say we'll see
:11:08. > :11:10.This doesn't mean surgeries will close, necessarily,
:11:11. > :11:15.We already have a situation in parts of Wales where GPs feel unable
:11:16. > :11:22.to continue in their practice and it's called handing
:11:23. > :11:25.back their keys or handing back the contracts to the health board
:11:26. > :11:27.and unless we are able to increase number of GPs.
:11:28. > :11:34.It may be that other parts of Wales will suffer that fate.
:11:35. > :11:36.Across north Wales, six GP partnerships have already given
:11:37. > :11:39.up their practices and they've been taken by health boards.
:11:40. > :11:41.Recruitment and retention problems are threatening a model of care
:11:42. > :11:49.that's served welsh towns and villages for decades.
:11:50. > :11:54.A survey two months ago by the royal College of GPs reported that more
:11:55. > :11:57.than one in five said they planned to reduce their working hours
:11:58. > :12:06.As a senior partner used to say who retired several years ago,
:12:07. > :12:14.you should aim to have natural causes on your death certificate.
:12:15. > :12:21.People tend to self medicate and things like that, go down the
:12:22. > :12:30.alcohol root and so on. People are getting burned out very quickly, and
:12:31. > :12:33.I cannot see anybody of my age working, carrying on doing six days
:12:34. > :12:34.a week. I want to drop down to two days.
:12:35. > :12:38.The same survey found eight out of ten doctors in Wales were worried
:12:39. > :12:44.they would miss something serious due to current workload.
:12:45. > :12:53.The amount of time which is spent in a consultation, although it usually
:12:54. > :12:59.runs to more than ten minutes, phone calls, interruptions, excessive
:13:00. > :13:07.house calls that we've always tried to contain, it's inevitably going to
:13:08. > :13:14.lead to some rather snap, snappy decisions than one would like. There
:13:15. > :13:20.is a safety issue. We do our best, but we do think, what have I missed
:13:21. > :13:23.today, what could I have done better? It's a fear.
:13:24. > :13:26.Betsi Cadwaladr Health Board told us they take the issue of patient
:13:27. > :13:29.safety very seriously and their role is to help take pressure
:13:30. > :13:38.But responsibility for safety of the individual lies with the GP.
:13:39. > :13:43.I wanted to ask our new Health Secretary Vaughan Gething how
:13:44. > :13:48.he responded to fears from doctors' leaders about enlisting more GPs.
:13:49. > :13:56.What's your take on what seems to be going on with GP recruitment? We
:13:57. > :14:01.know we have a real challenge on GP recruitment. Various different
:14:02. > :14:04.context in different parts of the country in a different scale in
:14:05. > :14:09.different parts of the country. We wouldn't be doing if we didn't think
:14:10. > :14:14.there was problem. That is why we have a primary care plan, it's worth
:14:15. > :14:18.putting more money in. When looking at diversifying the workforce, so
:14:19. > :14:21.GPs get to do more of what they can do and there are other professionals
:14:22. > :14:26.to do different things. I'm confident we can find a way through.
:14:27. > :14:29.Where GP surgeries have handed back their notices, we've always found a
:14:30. > :14:40.way to maintain the service for the public. Recruiting and retailing
:14:41. > :14:46.enough GPs especially in rural areas is a problem.
:14:47. > :14:49.Jonathan Richards was one of South Wales's most prominent GPs.
:14:50. > :14:51.We've often filmed him over his 30 years working in Merthyr.
:14:52. > :14:54.He deliberately chose the town because of its high levels
:14:55. > :15:04.The challenge we face at the moment is other things are changing society
:15:05. > :15:06.is changing, and expectation is changing, roles and responsibilities
:15:07. > :15:09.are changing and that's making the job of a family doctor
:15:10. > :15:12.substantially more difficult and more challenging.
:15:13. > :15:16.I have to confess, I was pleased to retire.
:15:17. > :15:19.A professor of primary care, he was also a clinical director
:15:20. > :15:31.As a former NHS insider, he believes we have to do things differently.
:15:32. > :15:34.I was finding day to day work, as a clinical GP, more and more
:15:35. > :15:36.challenging - harder and harder work.
:15:37. > :15:39.Do you mean traditional GPs surgeries can't function in the same
:15:40. > :15:52.In Prestatyn with partnerships throwing in the towel,
:15:53. > :15:56.the local health board has had to step in to provide the service
:15:57. > :16:03.I think this is something the nurse practitioner can deal
:16:04. > :16:06.if you bring in a urine sample with you as well.
:16:07. > :16:12.It's called Healthy Prestatyn, and it's a new kind of surgery.
:16:13. > :16:15.I'd like to book you in for an initial assessment.
:16:16. > :16:19.Does she have enough tablets to last till then?
:16:20. > :16:22.GPs, including Chris Stockport, work here not as partners in a business,
:16:23. > :16:33.but as salaried staff of the health board.
:16:34. > :16:35.I see lots of doctors in my day-to-day job,
:16:36. > :16:38.and in speaking to young doctors many are telling me and colleagues
:16:39. > :16:40.one reason they don't consider GP practice as a career
:16:41. > :16:44.is because they don't want to be involved in the running of business.
:16:45. > :16:47.They want to be employed under similar terms and conditions
:16:48. > :16:55.It's also pushing a different approach to healthcare.
:16:56. > :16:57.Nurse practitioners like Katie Dawson are increasingly
:16:58. > :16:59.common in surgeries, but Healthy Prestatyn is relying
:17:00. > :17:15.As a nurse practitioner, if you are can see the day-to-day presentations
:17:16. > :17:18.of minor illnesses, then it frees the GP to see the more
:17:19. > :17:21.complex cases that come But does she get any resistance
:17:22. > :17:24.from people who only Sometimes people insist
:17:25. > :17:28.they want to see a doctor and I don't force that,
:17:29. > :17:32.but sometimes - once they realise that you have skills to deal
:17:33. > :17:34.with them efficiently - I'm calling from the doctor 's
:17:35. > :17:46.surgery... physio therapists, all dealing
:17:47. > :17:50.with things the doctor And also that you're
:17:51. > :17:57.wanting to return to work? There's an occupational therapist
:17:58. > :18:00.who tries to boost people's independence, so they don't have
:18:01. > :18:03.to visit the GP at all. If people are staying active
:18:04. > :18:09.for longer and being able to self-manage,
:18:10. > :18:11.reaching their own goals, then yes, you are more in control and that's
:18:12. > :18:15.what they like. I have worked with patients who like
:18:16. > :18:20.having that sense of control. It's about self-management
:18:21. > :18:21.and not coming knocking I'm seeing patients that
:18:22. > :18:28.are being managed by other professionals that would previously
:18:29. > :18:30.have been on my list for the day. Not only managing them well, but,
:18:31. > :18:33.if I am perfectly honest, managing them better,
:18:34. > :18:35.because they are bringing other The doctors here say a third
:18:36. > :18:44.of their workload has been taken away, releasing more time
:18:45. > :18:47.for appointments and for the people It is making a huge difference,
:18:48. > :19:04.it means that patients I see are more complex,
:19:05. > :19:07.but I can use my skills I've been It's the first time this model
:19:08. > :19:12.of primary care has been tried on this scale,
:19:13. > :19:15.looking after so many patients. The Health Board says this new model
:19:16. > :19:17.can compete on cost with So is this the shape
:19:18. > :19:21.of things to come? Very possibly, says health economist
:19:22. > :19:25.Ceri Phillips. We cannot do the things we've always
:19:26. > :19:28.done. The system is on the verge
:19:29. > :19:38.of breaking. In some areas perhaps it's already
:19:39. > :19:41.broken - we cannot fix We have to look at what works
:19:42. > :19:49.in other communities. We have to look at other models
:19:50. > :19:53.of care and use of technology, we have to make sure that
:19:54. > :19:56.professionals do what only do Before retiring last year,
:19:57. > :20:03.Professor Richards was helping shape how his local health board,
:20:04. > :20:05.Cwm Taf, provided primary He says trying to make
:20:06. > :20:09.changes in the NHS creates I achieved quite a lot of small
:20:10. > :20:17.changes, but in terms of the broader things - that has
:20:18. > :20:20.proved much more challenging. People wanted to continue doing
:20:21. > :20:28.the things they we are familiar doing, and there were not
:20:29. > :20:36.all of the levers that I'd liked to have in place to say
:20:37. > :20:39.we can't keep driving the oil tanker in this direction,
:20:40. > :20:41.the oil tanker needs to be And and that does really does
:20:42. > :20:45.require a real small political drive, to say we simply cannot
:20:46. > :20:48.continue doing the same things He was particularly concerned
:20:49. > :20:58.about how smaller GP partnerships in places
:20:59. > :21:02.like the Cynon Valley would survive. He was helping them to work more
:21:03. > :21:05.closely together in clusters, He took us to see one
:21:06. > :21:13.of the surgeries involved. Sometimes we have to treat patients
:21:14. > :21:19.in corridors because This is sometimes used
:21:20. > :21:23.as a consulting room As you can see, very
:21:24. > :21:28.little space in here. This surgery in Mountain Ash has
:21:29. > :21:32.outgrown its building ? the practice is hoping to get money
:21:33. > :21:42.from Welsh Goverment We allowed the students and
:21:43. > :21:43.registrars to have a room to study downstairs but it is totally
:21:44. > :21:49.unacceptable, isn't it? Two full time partners
:21:50. > :21:52.and a salaried doctor and nurse look There's also a visiting pharmacist
:21:53. > :21:59.and nurse practitioner. If you mentioned anyone to Cardiff,
:22:00. > :22:03.I work in Mountain Ash, they say, couldn't you get a job anywhere else
:22:04. > :22:08.question at this is where we want to be, an exciting place to work and
:22:09. > :22:11.this is where the future should be. The answer for recruitment
:22:12. > :22:15.protection is to have a good working life, in a good place, with good
:22:16. > :22:21.people. But that doesn't come easily, does it? In the valleys we
:22:22. > :22:26.have a high number of patients who have a lot of chronic diseases, more
:22:27. > :22:27.than elsewhere. A high number of unemployed people and a high number
:22:28. > :22:36.of elderly patients. You see people and they're
:22:37. > :22:38.on 12-16 medications, It's not just are tablets, it's
:22:39. > :22:41.checking all conditions are managed. One of the things that's meant
:22:42. > :22:45.to help meet these demands These doctors say they are happy to
:22:46. > :22:52.come together with other surgeries. It builds up better
:22:53. > :22:58.relationships with other The Welsh Government has just has
:22:59. > :23:06.put a further ?6 million into supporting Wales' GP clusters,
:23:07. > :23:09.but as independent businesses, general practices can't be
:23:10. > :23:12.forced to join clusters, and around Wales there are reports
:23:13. > :23:15.of some being keener than others The Welsh Government wants to take
:23:16. > :23:26.pressure off hospitals by getting GPS to do more
:23:27. > :23:29.here in the community, but they are worried that will only
:23:30. > :23:35.add to their workload. And without extra money
:23:36. > :23:37.and resources, they won't be able The Royal College of GPs not enough
:23:38. > :23:43.money is going to general practitioners, whereas the number
:23:44. > :23:45.of full time hospital consultants in Wales has
:23:46. > :23:50.gone up by more than 40% over The Welsh Government is putting
:23:51. > :23:54.an extra ?40 million into primary But the proportion of the NHS total
:23:55. > :23:59.going into primary care, compared with hospitals, has gone
:24:00. > :24:02.down over the years, and GPs think But when Professor Richards
:24:03. > :24:13.was at the health board suggesting resources should be
:24:14. > :24:17.switched to primary care, he says he faced opposition
:24:18. > :24:19.from some consultants. Yes, people think -
:24:20. > :24:29.if I agree to this change, Might they decide instead of four
:24:30. > :24:30.consultants in the team, we only need two? It does come down to that
:24:31. > :24:33.level. And he says we all need
:24:34. > :24:37.to change our attitude. In Wales, the public hate
:24:38. > :24:39.changes to hospitals. Look at some ideas to change
:24:40. > :24:42.hospital services and the general public are almost on the streets
:24:43. > :24:45.saying "No, we want our old services" even if its
:24:46. > :24:47.killing people, and this Cwm Taf Health Board told us that
:24:48. > :24:55."Working in an integrated system is partly about how the skills
:24:56. > :24:59.of GPs, hospital doctors and wider This means everyone working
:25:00. > :25:04.differently and collaboratively The board accepts that change can be
:25:05. > :25:17.difficult, but it's extremely proud of how their staff
:25:18. > :25:20.are embracing new ways of working. Driving change is challenge
:25:21. > :25:22.for the new Health Secretary Doctor Jonathan Richards told
:25:23. > :25:26.us there are too many internal barriers to change,
:25:27. > :25:28.and when he suggested the things to help the primary sector
:25:29. > :25:31.at the expense of the hospital, We've got to have a clear
:25:32. > :25:35.expectation from our point of view of how people will
:25:36. > :25:37.work with each other. There's no point pretending
:25:38. > :25:39.there aren't some rubbing together, or some rubbing apart from people
:25:40. > :25:42.from different parts of the service. And I do think we need
:25:43. > :25:49.to be more demanding, and having a much greater
:25:50. > :25:51.expectation then what works will then work will be carried
:25:52. > :25:53.out more consistently, and that is one of our biggest
:25:54. > :25:56.challenges in the service - how do we make sure that what works,
:25:57. > :26:00.when there's evidence that it works, is then delivered in a much more
:26:01. > :26:02.consistent basis right In the meantime, this system,
:26:03. > :26:08.to some extent, struggles on, held together by the dedication
:26:09. > :26:11.of doctors like these. Jonathan admires them,
:26:12. > :26:13.but also thinks the situation in the Valleys is unsustainable,
:26:14. > :26:25.until everyone agrees on change. If you take the needs of the people
:26:26. > :26:28.in the community here, they'd be best served by a larger
:26:29. > :26:31.team of people with economies of scale to bring in more staff
:26:32. > :26:34.working from one building, because at the moment
:26:35. > :26:36.if you want to provide services, you have to provide 3 or 4
:26:37. > :26:40.of everything - instead of a team instead of a team of two or three
:26:41. > :26:43.people who could provide You could have more equipment.
:26:44. > :26:48.Better use of IT if everybody worked together, but if you did that,
:26:49. > :26:53.you'd lose the spark of individualism, you see on show
:26:54. > :26:55.here today, so the challenge Back in Rhosllanerchrugog
:26:56. > :27:07.near Wrexham, the surgery is going to be relying much more
:27:08. > :27:12.heavily soon on part-time GPs. They are determined to carry
:27:13. > :27:14.on as an independent practice, and are looking at new ways
:27:15. > :27:17.of running the business. Dr Coward is looking forward
:27:18. > :27:21.to semi-retirement, but after so long in the same place
:27:22. > :27:26.he says he can't just walk away. It is not just coming
:27:27. > :27:28.up to retirement age, It would be a dreadful thing
:27:29. > :27:42.to the legacy of previous senior partners going back 90 years
:27:43. > :27:45.even if we did anything less than our very best,
:27:46. > :27:50.even in retirement. The Welsh Government says it
:27:51. > :27:53.will prioritise plans to boost the recruitment and training
:27:54. > :27:55.of additional GPs and Last week doctors' leaders met
:27:56. > :28:02.with the Health Secretary for the first time since
:28:03. > :28:05.the election, saying they'd been encouraged by his latest comments
:28:06. > :28:08.about wanting to see a greater transfer of resources
:28:09. > :28:12.from hospitals to primary care. Back in Pembrokeshire,
:28:13. > :28:16.Hywel Dda Health Board admit there are recruitment difficulties,
:28:17. > :28:20.but told us they were committed to ensuring patients
:28:21. > :28:24.could access clinicians. As for the queues we filmed
:28:25. > :28:27.in Tenby, the Health Board said they are telling patients they can
:28:28. > :28:37.book appointments on the phone. And at the Argyle St Practice,
:28:38. > :28:39.they'll will be looking I didn't realise the difficulties
:28:40. > :28:52.GPs have in rural settings. Being here, I have got the skills
:28:53. > :28:56.I need to be an independent And Juliet ? who's worked
:28:57. > :29:02.at the surgery for a decade is saying goodbye too ?
:29:03. > :29:05.she's just retiring. My hope is that the doctors
:29:06. > :29:17.who work here stay here I think it has to be raised in
:29:18. > :29:21.doctor 's consciousness is that becoming a GP can be a good career
:29:22. > :29:23.option and isn't the poisoned chalice they perhaps think that it
:29:24. > :29:50.is. I've brought you all here
:29:51. > :29:52.to lay out a vision - a team of radio presenters
:29:53. > :29:55.without equal. Actually, we're already...
:29:56. > :29:57.Wynne Evans - singer, raconteur. I'm betting you'd also
:29:58. > :30:00.be funny on radio.