0:00:06 > 0:00:11You know when you are in Wales, because you have to pay to get in.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13And now there are new laws to support the Welsh
0:00:13 > 0:00:15language, and they cost too.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17This is times of austerity.
0:00:17 > 0:00:18Can we afford it?
0:00:18 > 0:00:21I think not.
0:00:21 > 0:00:23You now have the right to demand services in Welsh
0:00:23 > 0:00:28as well as English.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33But it could cost Welsh councils millions of pounds
0:00:33 > 0:00:37to provide bilingual services.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42When I received the figure for what it might cost us
0:00:42 > 0:00:45there was a deep intake of breath from lots of my council colleagues.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Tonight, as rows rage about the cost, are we even spending
0:00:48 > 0:00:55in the right places?
0:00:58 > 0:01:04We've got it all in Wales - stunning scenery, culture and sport.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08RADIO: Wales will be in the Euro 2016!
0:01:08 > 0:01:12And of course the Welsh language.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14RADIO CYMRU PLAYS.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17It's something we're proud of but most of us don't speak it
0:01:17 > 0:01:21and there's a constant battle to keep it alive.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24As a young lad in Flintshire, I found myself as a
0:01:24 > 0:01:26linguistic guinea pig.
0:01:26 > 0:01:31That brings you back.
0:01:32 > 0:01:38A long time ago, back in the 1970s, I was educated off these corridors
0:01:38 > 0:01:41through the medium of Welsh.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44That was an evangelical time for the language and,
0:01:44 > 0:01:49for pupils like me who came from English-speaking homes,
0:01:49 > 0:01:52part of the mission was clear - that we would go on to save
0:01:52 > 0:01:56the Welsh language.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01As it turned out, things didn't go according to the big plan.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Inside the classroom, the language was definitely Welsh,
0:02:04 > 0:02:06but, for me and other pupils, the language
0:02:06 > 0:02:08of the playground was English.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11And when I left here it was to make my way
0:02:11 > 0:02:14into an English-speaking world across the border, and I left most
0:02:14 > 0:02:18of my Welsh language behind me.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26For me and many others where I grew up, it is a typical story.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29But today, the language is being supported in predominantly
0:02:29 > 0:02:35English-speaking areas thanks to the introduction of new laws.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38They give Welsh speakers the right to use Welsh.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41But there's a catch.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45We have discovered that the new laws which are designed to keep the Welsh
0:02:45 > 0:02:50language alive come at a cos.
0:02:50 > 0:02:52-- language alive come at a cost.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54In fact the price tag is huge.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56And it's councils that are going to have to pick it up first.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01The idea is for you to be able to speak Welsh wherever
0:03:01 > 0:03:02you are in Wales.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04But already rows are breaking out across the country about
0:03:04 > 0:03:08whether we can really afford it.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11I'm in Torfaen, where fluent Welsh speakers are a bit
0:03:11 > 0:03:14thin on the ground.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Do you remember last time you heard anyone speaking Welsh
0:03:16 > 0:03:17in Pontypool?
0:03:17 > 0:03:18No.
0:03:18 > 0:03:22My granddaughter is three and she's going to Welsh nursery so she comes
0:03:22 > 0:03:25out with the odd word but you've got to go to west Wales to hear
0:03:25 > 0:03:28people speaking Welsh.
0:03:28 > 0:03:3110% of locals speak Welsh here.
0:03:31 > 0:03:32I speak Welsh fluently.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36I went to a Welsh school.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39But nobody else really speaks it and there's no need to speak Welsh
0:03:39 > 0:03:48cos no-one in the shops speaks Welsh and stuff like that.
0:03:48 > 0:03:49that I am really dull.
0:03:49 > 0:03:50And I'm not!
0:03:50 > 0:03:53It's just cos I don't know anything in English.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54What about friends?
0:03:54 > 0:03:55Do you speak to them in Welsh?
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Only if we want to speak about someone behind their back
0:03:58 > 0:04:01and they can't speak Welsh!
0:04:01 > 0:04:03Since last month, Torfaen, and every other council in Wales,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06has been obliged to provide services in English and Welsh.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09So all public documents have to be translated and staff must
0:04:09 > 0:04:13be available to deal with the public in Welsh.
0:04:13 > 0:04:23The cost to Torfaen is estimated to be ?870,000.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26All this bilingual pamphlets, all right up north Wales but down
0:04:26 > 0:04:29here I don't see any need for it to be honest.
0:04:29 > 0:04:35Nobody reads it.
0:04:35 > 0:04:40Giving Welsh equal status to English costs.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43Certainly when I received the figure about what it might cost us
0:04:43 > 0:04:47there was a deep intake of breath from lots of my council colleagues.
0:04:47 > 0:04:48You're being polite now.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50What did they really say?
0:04:50 > 0:04:52There were some colourful expressions.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55A few expletives went around the room?
0:04:55 > 0:05:01We're far too polite for expletives in Torfaen but certainly
0:05:01 > 0:05:05there was a bit of shock and a bit of alarm at the fact
0:05:05 > 0:05:07we had been through another budget situation where we are having
0:05:07 > 0:05:09to make really difficult decisions.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12You're talking tens of millions of pounds over the last five or six
0:05:12 > 0:05:13years, just to keep going.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16If it is going to make a real difference to the language,
0:05:16 > 0:05:18I can understand it, but my issue comes where it's
0:05:18 > 0:05:22maybe more tokenistic.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25So what do people in Pontypool think about their council having
0:05:25 > 0:05:37to spend their money on the Welsh language?
0:05:37 > 0:05:38Waste of money.
0:05:38 > 0:05:39But that's what they do.
0:05:39 > 0:05:50It's just a waste of money.
0:05:50 > 0:05:55Yes, I suppose cos there's a lot of Welsh schools around now.
0:05:55 > 0:06:02Teaching kids Welsh, they'd be better...
0:06:02 > 0:06:03I look at myself as Welsh.
0:06:03 > 0:06:04Are you Welsh?
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Yes.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08Wouldn't you be a bit more Welsh if you could speak it?
0:06:08 > 0:06:09This is my Welsh.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11Everyone round here speaks like this.
0:06:11 > 0:06:18This is our Welsh.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23The new regulations are called Welsh Standards.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26There are 176 of them and councils have had a year to get
0:06:26 > 0:06:28ready for the change.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31But what do people here think?
0:06:31 > 0:06:33Too much, too late.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35Torfaen has never been a Welsh speaking area.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37It's never going to be a Welsh speaking area.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39Protect what you have got.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Don't try to force on other people what's never going to happen.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45When Ron Burnett isn't working in his family's florist shop,
0:06:45 > 0:06:46he's an independent councillor helping to decide
0:06:51 > 0:06:52on where to make cuts.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55I'm a proud Welshman and I know we have to maintain our Welsh
0:06:55 > 0:06:58language and heritage but at what cost?
0:06:58 > 0:06:59This is times of austerity.
0:06:59 > 0:07:00Can we afford it?
0:07:00 > 0:07:06I think not.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09The point of the new law, called Welsh Standards,
0:07:09 > 0:07:15is to give Welsh equal status alongside English in public life.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19My sister works in a place in Cardiff as a receptionist
0:07:19 > 0:07:21and she speaks Welsh in there but anywhere
0:07:21 > 0:07:23round here there's nothing.
0:07:23 > 0:07:24Would you like to use your Welsh?
0:07:24 > 0:07:26Yeah, I would.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29If everyone else spoke Welsh I'd speak Welsh all the time.
0:07:29 > 0:07:30I'd love it.
0:07:30 > 0:07:37I'm shy now cos I'm on camera.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40Councils are the first to work with the new regulations.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43Every other public body, more than 100 in all,
0:07:43 > 0:07:48will have to follow suit, ranging from police forces to museums.
0:07:48 > 0:07:54And we've found Torfaen won't be facing the stiff bill alone.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02what it will cost to put the Welsh Standards into effect.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05But getting an accurate figure is proving difficult.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Estimates from those who have responded vary wildly from no cost
0:08:10 > 0:08:15to millions of pounds.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17The Government has published these figures but it admits
0:08:17 > 0:08:19they are unreliable.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22What this means is that new laws have been passed to introduce
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Welsh Standards but no-one really knows what the final cost
0:08:25 > 0:08:31to the public is likely to be.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Councillor Burnett says it's creating uncertainty.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37I've spoken to officers on an individual basis
0:08:37 > 0:08:40and they are worried.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43They have a hard enough job as it is to meet budgets and they're
0:08:43 > 0:08:45hard working officers.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47Where is the money going to come from?
0:08:47 > 0:08:51And the cuts they have to do at the moment are worrying cuts.
0:08:51 > 0:08:56But like it or not, councils don't have a choice.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01They're not allowed to ignore the changes.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07SHE SPEAKS WELSH.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10This is Mari Huws, and what she's telling
0:09:10 > 0:09:17you is that your rights to speak Welsh is enshrined in law.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20-- you is that your rights to speak Welsh are enshrined in law.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22It is her job as the new Welsh language commissioner
0:09:22 > 0:09:24to oversee the introduction of these new regulations.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26She's person you complain to if you think your
0:09:26 > 0:09:27rights are being ignored.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31And she's the person councils have to answer to if they get it wrong.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34She has the power to investigate and the power to impose fines
0:09:34 > 0:09:39if the rules are broken.
0:09:40 > 0:09:47So why does the language need to be protected in law?
0:09:47 > 0:09:50Only one in five of us speaks Welsh and the last census said
0:09:50 > 0:09:53numbers are dropping.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56A critical mass that speaks the language is important
0:09:56 > 0:10:02for the language maintenance and the survival of the language.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04Linguist Professor Antonella Sorace says new laws alone won't be
0:10:04 > 0:10:06enough to save Welsh.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08You also have to invest in communities where it's
0:10:08 > 0:10:11already a living language.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15It has been calculated that 70% or more people who speak
0:10:15 > 0:10:20the language actually maintains the language alive.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23From the point of view of a child who grows up with the language,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26it's very important to hear the language from many different
0:10:26 > 0:10:31people who speak in different ways.
0:10:32 > 0:10:3550 years ago there were hundreds of such communities in Wales.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39You could drive from Holyhead in Anglesey, through the hills
0:10:39 > 0:10:44in mid-Wales near Machynlleth, all the way to Llanelli,
0:10:44 > 0:10:50and you wouldn't have to speak a word of English.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53This is renowned as one of the most beautiful views in Wales.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55But this place also has a siginifigance on the
0:10:55 > 0:10:56linguistic map as well.
0:10:56 > 0:11:01Because 50 years ago there were literally hundreds
0:11:01 > 0:11:03of communities north and south of here where Welsh
0:11:03 > 0:11:11was the majority language.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15But today there are just 49 - all north of here, in Gwynedd
0:11:15 > 0:11:17and Anglesey, where over 70% speak Welsh.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18To the south in Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire,
0:11:18 > 0:11:22Welsh has gone into rapid decline.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30I'm in the heart of Ceredigion.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34For Welsh learners, it's the perfect setting.
0:11:39 > 0:11:45Today, English is strictly off the menu.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50If they don't order their Chinese in Welsh, they go hungry.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54SHE SPEAKS WELSH.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57Iestyn Ap Dafydd runs the class, and the emphasis
0:11:57 > 0:12:02is on the practical.
0:12:02 > 0:12:08To speak to us, he has to leave the table.
0:12:08 > 0:12:14For people who are learning Welsh, to be able to go out in a village
0:12:14 > 0:12:17and talk Welsh without having to worry whether the person
0:12:17 > 0:12:21will understand is just priceless.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25In an area like this where you hear people speaking Welsh to each other
0:12:25 > 0:12:28on the street all the time it's just more natural to think,
0:12:28 > 0:12:32"I'm going to join in with that."
0:12:32 > 0:12:35Iestyn's pupils are doing well because Llandysul is still mainly
0:12:35 > 0:12:38a Welsh-speaking community.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42But for how much longer?
0:12:42 > 0:12:48Even here, numbers are dropping.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51The old families, they all speak Welsh but the new families coming
0:12:51 > 0:12:55in now haven't got a clue.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Most people speak Welsh around this village but there
0:12:58 > 0:13:04is a tendency to speak English.
0:13:04 > 0:13:09We see the Welsh language used less and less now which is quite sad.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17There are quite a lot of English people in pubs now and people try
0:13:17 > 0:13:23and transform them to Welsh.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Oh, yes, we're having a lot of fun trying to learn people.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29Oh, yes.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31The local council is already able to function through
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Welsh in most areas.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38But under the new laws it may have to spend up to ?36,000 to provide
0:13:38 > 0:13:42more public information in Welsh as well as English.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44But to really keep the language alive in places like this,
0:13:44 > 0:13:49you need to go back to school.
0:13:49 > 0:13:54THEY SPEAK WELSH.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01In Llandysul, the village primary school teaches through the medium
0:14:01 > 0:14:06of Welsh, and children from English-speaking homes
0:14:06 > 0:14:08quickly become fluent.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13THEY SPEAK WELSH.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18Iestyn Ap Dafydd is also one of the school governors.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21What Ceredigion does very well is they have immersion centres
0:14:21 > 0:14:24for new arrivals where children go there for a few weeks and come out
0:14:24 > 0:14:28practically Welsh speakers.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32With schools like Llandysul where everything happens in Welsh,
0:14:32 > 0:14:39once your child is able to take part in that,
0:14:39 > 0:14:42they just take to it like a duck to water.
0:14:42 > 0:14:44Unlike my Welsh, which I learnt and left in the classroom,
0:14:44 > 0:14:47when these children leave school, the new law will give them the right
0:14:47 > 0:14:50to demand to use the language when dealing with public
0:14:50 > 0:14:53bodies anywhere in Wales.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55But are enough children learning Welsh to make it work
0:14:55 > 0:14:59and will they continue using it?
0:14:59 > 0:15:02In Ceredigion, learning through Welsh is popular especially
0:15:02 > 0:15:06at primary school level, but it's not compulsory.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08Some think it should be - like language consultant
0:15:08 > 0:15:11Cefin Campbell.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13Well, research shows over many, many years that,
0:15:13 > 0:15:16when you provide choice, the numbers opting for Welsh
0:15:16 > 0:15:22medium tend to decrease.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25So we have a dilemma - if you provide choice,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29then fewer people opt - for various reasons.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34But with a level of compulsion, you are giving young people those
0:15:34 > 0:15:37opportunities to be bilingual.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41What you want making out an argument for is anti-democratic.
0:15:41 > 0:15:42Social engineering.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46I think it's not anti-democratic in any way.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49The Welsh Government have committed themselves to creating a bilingual
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Wales, so if we believe in that, then we must give our children
0:15:52 > 0:15:56the tools to become fully bilingual.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59And that means it's not about opposing choice or forcing
0:15:59 > 0:16:03the language down people's throat, it's about giving them
0:16:03 > 0:16:05the opportunity to be bilingual, and I think all schools
0:16:05 > 0:16:09in Wales eventually should be able to do this.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Cefin Campbell is also a councillor in the next county, Carmarthenshire,
0:16:13 > 0:16:15where there are controversial plans to help save the language
0:16:15 > 0:16:18in one community.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20I think if people want to learn Welsh, great.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23I'm not against the Welsh language whatsoever,
0:16:23 > 0:16:27if people want to learn the language I think it's absolutely fantastic.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31But I don't think it should be forced on people.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Michaela Beddows is one of a number of parents in Llangennech
0:16:34 > 0:16:37who are worried about plans for the village primary,
0:16:37 > 0:16:40where children are currently taught through English or Welsh.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44In future the English stream could disappear.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49I think that these people who are trying to force this policy
0:16:49 > 0:16:53on children especially are doing more harm than good.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55They're going to make more people anti-Welsh language than supportive
0:16:55 > 0:16:59of the Welsh language.
0:16:59 > 0:17:00Michealea's daughter went to the school,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03and her younger son is still there.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05But she's worried about the effect the proposed change could
0:17:05 > 0:17:08have on the village.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10If they start now, parents start sending their children
0:17:10 > 0:17:20to different schools, changing schools, out of the area,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23and all different children are coming from different areas
0:17:23 > 0:17:26into the school, the children are not growing up knowing each other.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29We're not going to be a strong community ever again.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31The Welsh Government is keen to promote more Welsh medium
0:17:31 > 0:17:33schools, and Carmarthenshire Council will decide soon if Llangennech
0:17:33 > 0:17:36primary will become one of them.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38It might be controversial, but to the north, in Gwynedd,
0:17:38 > 0:17:44the vast majority of pupils already learn through the medium of Welsh.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Certainly in the primary sector, we have implemented this for over 20
0:17:47 > 0:17:51years and it's extremely successful.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54Most children who have gone through the primary sector
0:17:54 > 0:17:57by the time they go into the secondary sector are fluent,
0:17:57 > 0:18:03and I mean fluent in both languages.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05The number of Welsh speakers has held up better in Gwynedd
0:18:05 > 0:18:07than anywhere else, and there is evidence
0:18:07 > 0:18:09that the school system has helped.
0:18:09 > 0:18:15But should Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire do the same?
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Parents like a choice and they know that.
0:18:17 > 0:18:18Well, we've got over it.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20Just go for it.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22Go for it.
0:18:22 > 0:18:23Put the arguments.
0:18:23 > 0:18:29There are positives, there are very big positives
0:18:29 > 0:18:34in having your education through the medium of Welsh.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37Gwynedd already has a well-established policy
0:18:37 > 0:18:42to support the Welsh language, so they don't expect the new Welsh
0:18:42 > 0:18:44Standards laws to cost them any more money.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46But back in Torfaen, they're already worried about how
0:18:46 > 0:18:52they're going to foot a potential bill of more than ?800,000.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54We are trying to keep our libraries open around Torfaen.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57One of these standards potentially could mean that we have to run
0:18:57 > 0:19:01bilingual reception facilities at all of our sites.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04If you're going to have two receptionists, how busy do
0:19:04 > 0:19:06you think the Welsh language receptionist would be?
0:19:06 > 0:19:08The demand isn't particularly great.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12I think it's under 2% of the visits to our website, for example,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15are accessed in Welsh.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19If you were to ask a resident what they want us to spend our money
0:19:19 > 0:19:22on, forget about whether it's Welsh language or other bureaucracy,
0:19:22 > 0:19:25they want us to spend it on front line services and not about printing
0:19:25 > 0:19:29two sets of forms out.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32But if the language is going to survive in areas where it's been
0:19:32 > 0:19:34traditionally spoken, the thought is it will need
0:19:34 > 0:19:38the support of the new laws and other practical measures.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42Hello there, hello.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45Come on, I'll show you around.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48Elliw Mai Davies has just moved into a new home in the tiny
0:19:48 > 0:19:51Welsh-speaking village of Felinfach in Ceredigion.
0:19:51 > 0:19:52That's nice, isn't it?
0:19:52 > 0:19:53It is nice, yes.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56Like many young people, she wanted to stay in her Welsh
0:19:56 > 0:20:00speaking community.
0:20:00 > 0:20:01The kitchen.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03This is nice and spacious, isn't it?
0:20:03 > 0:20:04It is, yes.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07You've got enough room for a dining table, as well, which is nice.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10She's a single mum who works in the county as a Marie Curie nurse.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13She says she couldn't have afforded to buy her own home here.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15This is my daughter's bedroom.
0:20:15 > 0:20:19So this housing association scheme built for local people with the aim
0:20:19 > 0:20:21of helping to support the Welsh language came at just
0:20:21 > 0:20:23the right time.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26I think eventually, every young person moves out of the area
0:20:26 > 0:20:36that can't speak Welsh, I don't know whether the Welsh line
0:20:38 > 0:20:41-- that can speak Welsh, I don't know whether the Welsh langage
0:20:41 > 0:20:42will survive.
0:20:42 > 0:20:43Elliw and her daughter are lucky.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46But there's shortage of affordable housing in areas like this.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47THEY SPEAK WELSH
0:20:47 > 0:20:48A third of young people leave Welsh-speaking counties,
0:20:48 > 0:20:50taking the language with them.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52That's a major threat to its survival.
0:20:52 > 0:21:00If that process of transmission stops, then the language is bound
0:21:00 > 0:21:06and pass it on to their children, that language can survive.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09We work on minority languages all over Europe that are not doing
0:21:09 > 0:21:25as well as Welsh.
0:21:25 > 0:21:34speakers is controversial.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39of 300 homes because of fears it would bring in non-Welsh speakers.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42Not everyone here is convinced.
0:21:42 > 0:21:43I wouldn't agree with them...
0:21:43 > 0:21:48on that particular case.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50There are cases, of course, where if you...
0:21:50 > 0:21:53Why wouldn't you agree with them?
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Because I'm not sure whether it will have a detrimental effect
0:21:56 > 0:21:58on the Welsh language in that particular area.
0:21:58 > 0:22:03Not that I have a personal knowledge of that locality.
0:22:03 > 0:22:07We need to provide housing.
0:22:07 > 0:22:17We can't stop building houses just in case it has a detrimental effect
0:22:17 > 0:22:19He believes there's a more productive way to
0:22:19 > 0:22:27maintain the language.
0:22:27 > 0:22:28of this county council -
0:22:28 > 0:22:33have had a policy when all our administration is undertaken
0:22:33 > 0:22:44Which has had a very important effect on the language
0:22:44 > 0:22:50who deal with us on a regular basis to adopt a similar policy.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52We want to see the whole of Wales, really, being administerd
0:22:52 > 0:22:57through the Welsh language - that's the ideal.
0:22:57 > 0:23:01So you see the public sector as taking a lead on this.
0:23:01 > 0:23:15It's a brilliant opportunity to take the lead on this.
0:23:15 > 0:23:16But could this really work anywhere else in Wales?
0:23:16 > 0:23:20In Carmarthenshire, 67% of council staff speak Welsh.
0:23:20 > 0:23:30The union Unison is worried further pressure for bilingualism
0:23:30 > 0:23:34of their qualifications, etc, and they Then apply for a job
0:23:34 > 0:23:41and because they don't speak Welsh to a certain standard, they are now
0:23:41 > 0:23:47Yes, we are in full favour of promoting it, but if you think
0:23:47 > 0:23:49A sizeable part of the workforce would have to learn
0:23:49 > 0:24:01Welsh for new jobs.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03I don't necessarily agree with that.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07But that would be the feeling people will have and it will
0:24:07 > 0:24:09If the Welsh Assembly wants it, put the money in.
0:24:09 > 0:24:13And what about Torfaen?
0:24:13 > 0:24:16If local authorities staff are required to be bilingual,
0:24:16 > 0:24:19that goes a long way in encouraging the wider population to learn Welsh.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Would that work here?
0:24:22 > 0:24:24No, frankly.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27We want to try and employ the best possible people to run
0:24:27 > 0:24:29our public services.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34That may be a realistic aspiration in Gwynedd.
0:24:34 > 0:24:39it was here or indeed in other parts of Wales.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42We now know the new Welsh laws come at a cost.
0:24:42 > 0:24:48In Torfaen, they claim it'll be more than ?800,000.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52Other councils say they are facing six-figure bills, too.
0:24:52 > 0:24:59So who did the number crunching before passing this legislation?
0:24:59 > 0:25:03The law giving Welsh equal status was first passed in the Senedd
0:25:03 > 0:25:09five years ago.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12When it came to the Welsh standards that have just hit our local
0:25:12 > 0:25:15councils, the First Minister Carwyn Jones said the benefits
0:25:15 > 0:25:19justified the probable costs.
0:25:19 > 0:25:25But did any of our politicians realise just how much that might be?
0:25:25 > 0:25:27The aims of the Welsh Language Standards received
0:25:27 > 0:25:30all-party support.
0:25:30 > 0:25:34AM Suzy Davies speaks for the Conservatives on Welsh.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38All parties committed to making Wales more bilingual, if you like.
0:25:38 > 0:25:43There is a difference between imposing decisions on people
0:25:43 > 0:25:45in a way that actually puts people off the Welsh language
0:25:45 > 0:25:48and encouraging them to take up opportunities that the law can
0:25:48 > 0:25:56provide them in order to enjoy the benefits of being bilingual.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59I wanted to know how this would be policed.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01And what are councils telling the Language Commissioner?
0:26:01 > 0:26:04After all, she's the one who has to get tough on those
0:26:04 > 0:26:06who don't comply.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08But she doesn't want to speak to us.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11That's because we've been told that the introduction
0:26:11 > 0:26:14to the new regulations is at a sensitive stage of the process.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18In fact, half the public organisations who have been issued
0:26:18 > 0:26:22with new standards have launched legal appeals,
0:26:22 > 0:26:25and that includes Welsh Government departments.
0:26:25 > 0:26:31So her in-tray might be a little bit full at the moment.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33In fact, we've discovered there are 18 public bodies appealing
0:26:33 > 0:26:38against more than 270 of the new regulations.
0:26:38 > 0:26:39If there are...
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Let's say it's local authorities feel that the standards,
0:26:42 > 0:26:48as applied to them, are not reasonable and proportionate,
0:26:48 > 0:26:51then they are quite right to appeal, and they will get more support
0:26:51 > 0:26:54with that appeal if they are able to show that the weight had
0:26:54 > 0:26:55gone too far.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58But I think it should be a concern for the Welsh language commissioner
0:26:58 > 0:27:00that so many authorities have appealed against the regulations
0:27:00 > 0:27:03which were, of course, devised on the basis of advice
0:27:03 > 0:27:06from her office.
0:27:06 > 0:27:11But if Torfaen had done more sooner, would they have such a big bill now?
0:27:11 > 0:27:13We've not taken an approach, for example, of objecting
0:27:13 > 0:27:15to all the standards.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18We've really tried to drill down and looked really at what we can do
0:27:18 > 0:27:20and what we'll try to do and what really has
0:27:20 > 0:27:21big resource implications.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24So I hope she would see that we've taken that balanced approach
0:27:24 > 0:27:30and deal with us sympathetically.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33I've come to the Senedd because I wanted to ask why
0:27:33 > 0:27:37the application of a law passed by the Welsh Government should cost
0:27:37 > 0:27:41so much and why there've been so many legal challenges against it
0:27:41 > 0:27:46- including two from this place.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48But we were told that because they'd been busy deciding who's
0:27:48 > 0:27:52going to get which Cabinet job, the minister now responsible
0:27:52 > 0:27:56for the language, Alun Davies, isn't ready to talk to us.
0:27:56 > 0:28:03But the Welsh Government says it's always been open about the fact
0:28:03 > 0:28:06the new Welsh standards would cost councils money.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09They say they should not be disproportionate to public bodies
0:28:09 > 0:28:17which have endeared effectively to their Welsh language schemes that
0:28:17 > 0:28:19-- which have adhered effectively to their Welsh language schemes that
0:28:19 > 0:28:21have been in force since the 1990s.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23However, some feel there should be a wider debate
0:28:23 > 0:28:25about what each community needs.
0:28:25 > 0:28:28The Welsh Government should come down to ground level
0:28:28 > 0:28:30and take their gold-rimmed glasses off, because they think this
0:28:30 > 0:28:33is what is going to be, give people the choice.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35Again, do you want the Welsh language or not?
0:28:35 > 0:28:38And within the community of Torfaen, I'd say less than 10% are Welsh
0:28:38 > 0:28:40speaking, and they choose to speak Welsh and keep
0:28:40 > 0:28:41the Welsh language alive.
0:28:41 > 0:28:46The other 90% choose not to.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49It looks as if the arguments about the cost of this new law
0:28:49 > 0:28:51will go on for some time.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53The big question is, what will it do to help
0:28:53 > 0:28:56the Welsh language survive?
0:28:56 > 0:28:59Well, one thing is certain.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01The language does need help and is facing its toughest test
0:29:01 > 0:29:05in an increasingly Anglicised world.