Britain & Europe: The Immigration Question

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0:00:09 > 0:00:11It's the decision of a lifetime,

0:00:11 > 0:00:15whether to stay in or to leave the European Union,

0:00:15 > 0:00:17the vast economic and political bloc

0:00:17 > 0:00:22that's opened the doors of the UK to people from across the continent.

0:00:24 > 0:00:27Immigration is one of the most emotive

0:00:27 > 0:00:30and controversial issues in British politics.

0:00:30 > 0:00:33Listen here, my daughter couldn't get into a school place.

0:00:33 > 0:00:36Farage's family was a refugee once.

0:00:37 > 0:00:42And now it's centre stage in the referendum campaign.

0:00:42 > 0:00:46You have absolutely no way of stopping it.

0:00:46 > 0:00:49Isis say they will use this migrant crisis

0:00:49 > 0:00:52to flood the continent with their jihadi fighters.

0:00:52 > 0:00:53I suggest we take them seriously.

0:00:53 > 0:00:57You use immigration to frighten people.

0:00:57 > 0:01:00It's always been a very potent political weapon.

0:01:00 > 0:01:03- Vote Leave.- Vote Leave. - Vote Leave.- Vote Leave.

0:01:03 > 0:01:07On one side, people claim that free movement within the EU

0:01:07 > 0:01:09is bad for Britain.

0:01:09 > 0:01:12For the top 4% or 5%,

0:01:12 > 0:01:16they get the gilded life of much cheaper nannies...

0:01:16 > 0:01:18If you go outside London,

0:01:18 > 0:01:21those wages are being lowered time and time again

0:01:21 > 0:01:24by cheap labour coming in from the continent.

0:01:24 > 0:01:26I don't know if I'm probably going to get in trouble

0:01:26 > 0:01:28for saying this or not, I don't care.

0:01:28 > 0:01:30I only employee English drivers.

0:01:30 > 0:01:31This is not an anti-migration.

0:01:31 > 0:01:34This is an anti-uncontrolled migration.

0:01:35 > 0:01:37While those who want to remain

0:01:37 > 0:01:42claim the economic benefits of free movement outweigh any problems.

0:01:42 > 0:01:46The level of immigration in terms of free movement

0:01:46 > 0:01:48is something that I support.

0:01:48 > 0:01:50You will fundamentally damage our economy.

0:01:50 > 0:01:54That cannot be the right way of controlling immigration.

0:01:55 > 0:01:57How we weigh up these arguments

0:01:57 > 0:02:00will shape the outcome of the referendum next week

0:02:00 > 0:02:03and the future of the country for years to come.

0:02:18 > 0:02:20The English seaside.

0:02:20 > 0:02:23Evocative of a bygone, perhaps a simpler era,

0:02:23 > 0:02:27when Britain had a different sense of its identity.

0:02:29 > 0:02:33This is Clacton in Essex, filmed in 1961,

0:02:33 > 0:02:35when it was a thriving resort.

0:02:43 > 0:02:45Today, Clacton looks like this.

0:02:48 > 0:02:51Like many coastal towns, it has suffered.

0:02:53 > 0:02:58Its biggest attraction, a Butlins holiday camp, closed years ago.

0:03:00 > 0:03:02Swan Taxis, good morning.

0:03:02 > 0:03:04Yeah, where from?

0:03:04 > 0:03:09Sonia Chowles works in a local taxi office.

0:03:09 > 0:03:14'I have lived in Clacton on and off since I was about seven years old.

0:03:14 > 0:03:16'So, 23 years.'

0:03:16 > 0:03:19I did leave Clacton for about a year, but I came back,

0:03:19 > 0:03:23and I haven't left since, and I have no intentions of leaving, either!

0:03:26 > 0:03:29You need to have one colour, darling.

0:03:29 > 0:03:33But life here is not easy for Sonia and her young family.

0:03:37 > 0:03:39Her husband is disabled,

0:03:39 > 0:03:43and she's desperate for a council house that better suits their needs.

0:03:44 > 0:03:47The housing waiting list is 15 years long,

0:03:47 > 0:03:51which is a huge amount of wait for someone that needs a home.

0:03:51 > 0:03:54So I don't think it's a case of no more immigrants.

0:03:54 > 0:03:57I think it's a case of no more anybodys.

0:03:57 > 0:03:59I just don't think the town can take any more,

0:03:59 > 0:04:02be them English, Welsh, Scottish,

0:04:02 > 0:04:05be them from the EU, be them from America.

0:04:05 > 0:04:08We just can't physically take any more people into this town.

0:04:08 > 0:04:10There's already too many.

0:04:11 > 0:04:14Clacton has a relatively low population of people

0:04:14 > 0:04:17born outside the UK.

0:04:17 > 0:04:19But immigration is a big issue here,

0:04:19 > 0:04:21as it is in many parts of the country.

0:04:23 > 0:04:25At the last election,

0:04:25 > 0:04:29almost four million people across Britain voted for Ukip,

0:04:29 > 0:04:33a party dedicated to getting Britain out of the European Union.

0:04:34 > 0:04:37It's Clacton, the largest town.

0:04:37 > 0:04:39I think it's the centre of the universe.

0:04:39 > 0:04:42How do people feel about the EU around here?

0:04:42 > 0:04:47I think people are pretty sceptical about it.

0:04:47 > 0:04:52'Despite all those votes, only Clacton elected a Ukip MP -

0:04:52 > 0:04:54'former Conservative Douglas Carswell.'

0:04:56 > 0:04:58It's the Europe of the political elite

0:04:58 > 0:05:03that I think people feel frustrated by and hostile towards.

0:05:08 > 0:05:12Clacton's unemployment rate is higher than the national average,

0:05:12 > 0:05:16and where work is available, wages tend to be low.

0:05:18 > 0:05:21As far as the frustrations of people who live here are concerned,

0:05:21 > 0:05:25isn't that much more about their economic situation?

0:05:25 > 0:05:28The fact is that this is an area of high deprivation.

0:05:28 > 0:05:30If they're going to be angry, they should be angry at Westminster.

0:05:30 > 0:05:33If what you said was correct

0:05:33 > 0:05:36then you would expect that in very prosperous Frinton,

0:05:36 > 0:05:37there would be less Euroscepticism

0:05:37 > 0:05:40than in relatively socioeconomically deprived Jaywick.

0:05:40 > 0:05:42That's simply not the case.

0:05:42 > 0:05:45Many, particularly on the left, like to think

0:05:45 > 0:05:47that if people are disaffected and discontent,

0:05:47 > 0:05:50it must caused by economics.

0:05:50 > 0:05:52I think economics is important,

0:05:52 > 0:05:54but I don't think that's really the issue.

0:05:54 > 0:05:57There are other issues to do with the feeling of control.

0:05:57 > 0:06:01They want to believe that they can elect a government

0:06:01 > 0:06:03that can take back control.

0:06:03 > 0:06:06And, you know, no-one wants to close the borders.

0:06:06 > 0:06:08But people do want to control the borders.

0:06:08 > 0:06:11And I think that's a quite legitimate aspiration.

0:06:13 > 0:06:16How are you going to vote in the referendum?

0:06:16 > 0:06:18I'm going to vote out. I'm voting out.

0:06:18 > 0:06:22So is my other half, and pretty much everyone else I've spoken to.

0:06:22 > 0:06:25I think immigration's got a big part to play

0:06:25 > 0:06:28in the services that are overwhelmed at the moment.

0:06:28 > 0:06:32And if we voted to leave, if the UK left the EU,

0:06:32 > 0:06:36how do you think that your life would improve?

0:06:37 > 0:06:40I don't think my life would, to be completely honest.

0:06:40 > 0:06:43I would hope it would by the time my children are grown up

0:06:43 > 0:06:45and have their own homes and their own children.

0:06:45 > 0:06:48I think that's what we need to do it for - not for the generation now,

0:06:48 > 0:06:51but for the next generation that are growing up

0:06:51 > 0:06:53and growing into a country that, at the moment,

0:06:53 > 0:06:56it's not going to be able to support them when they're older.

0:06:56 > 0:06:58Whereas we need a country that will support the next generation,

0:06:58 > 0:07:01and I don't think, at the moment, we can do that.

0:07:05 > 0:07:09Clacton's journey over the last 20 years,

0:07:09 > 0:07:16I think, is a journey that many people in Britain have also been on

0:07:16 > 0:07:18and can relate to.

0:07:18 > 0:07:22And I think it's a journey that many political representatives,

0:07:22 > 0:07:27and also media elites, struggle to relate to.

0:07:27 > 0:07:30It's a part of Britain that doesn't celebrate

0:07:30 > 0:07:32what people in London celebrate.

0:07:32 > 0:07:34It's a part of Britain that doesn't cherish

0:07:34 > 0:07:38the progressive cosmopolitan values that people in London cherish.

0:07:40 > 0:07:43It's a part of Britain that feels as though

0:07:43 > 0:07:47a way of life that it once knew and held tight

0:07:47 > 0:07:49is slipping away over the horizon,

0:07:49 > 0:07:52and it wants to let people know that's how it feels.

0:07:55 > 0:07:58CHEERING

0:07:58 > 0:08:01Is it not time we took back control of our immigration policy?

0:08:02 > 0:08:07But concern about immigration from the EU goes far beyond Clacton.

0:08:09 > 0:08:12We want our borders back, we want our country back.

0:08:14 > 0:08:19Polls regularly suggest that it is a big concern for British voters.

0:08:20 > 0:08:23We can't control our border with the EU for migration,

0:08:23 > 0:08:25and that runs pretty much out of control now.

0:08:25 > 0:08:27We won't be drowned out, will we?

0:08:27 > 0:08:29- ALL:- No!

0:08:29 > 0:08:30As we approach the referendum,

0:08:30 > 0:08:34EU migration is, for some, the biggest issue of all.

0:08:36 > 0:08:41And Leave campaigners have been keen to put it at the top of the agenda.

0:08:41 > 0:08:42Thank you.

0:08:45 > 0:08:47I can't think of any other country in the world

0:08:47 > 0:08:50that would think it's somehow extreme

0:08:50 > 0:08:52to want to have border control and, therefore,

0:08:52 > 0:08:56to be in charge of how many people come in into your country.

0:08:56 > 0:08:58That seems to me to be a quite reasonable position to take.

0:08:58 > 0:09:00MUSIC: Ode To Joy by Beethoven

0:09:03 > 0:09:06- REPORTER:- Celebrating a new beginning, a new Europe.

0:09:07 > 0:09:09In 2004,

0:09:09 > 0:09:13many former communist countries joined the European Union.

0:09:14 > 0:09:16A moment of unity and history

0:09:16 > 0:09:20for a continent that had seen decades of ideological division.

0:09:23 > 0:09:28At the time, net migration from the EU stood at 15,000 a year.

0:09:28 > 0:09:31But a new era was about to begin.

0:09:33 > 0:09:39In 2004, we had the enlargement of the EU.

0:09:39 > 0:09:41Unlike some of our EU partners,

0:09:41 > 0:09:44we said, yeah, anyone who wants to come

0:09:44 > 0:09:48from the eight countries from Eastern Europe

0:09:48 > 0:09:50can come straight away.

0:09:50 > 0:09:52Well, that was a mistake,

0:09:52 > 0:09:56and it's been acknowledged that that was a mistake.

0:09:56 > 0:09:58- REPORTER: - A new queue for the newcomers,

0:09:58 > 0:10:00able to have their passports checked

0:10:00 > 0:10:04in the EU channel for the first time.

0:10:04 > 0:10:07Government commissioned some studies

0:10:07 > 0:10:12as to what sort of additional numbers might we expect.

0:10:13 > 0:10:16And, lo and behold,

0:10:16 > 0:10:21they were told that it would be no more than 13,000 a year.

0:10:21 > 0:10:23It's a hell of a lot more than that.

0:10:28 > 0:10:32Within three years, the figure was almost ten times that,

0:10:32 > 0:10:37as annual net migration from the EU went above 120,000.

0:10:40 > 0:10:42The public weren't told.

0:10:42 > 0:10:45There was a deliberate decision by the Labour government,

0:10:45 > 0:10:48which I voted for, and I'm a member of the party.

0:10:48 > 0:10:51It was a deliberate decision to keep the public in the dark

0:10:51 > 0:10:54about immigration, which is utterly shameful.

0:10:54 > 0:10:56And they did that because they knew

0:10:56 > 0:10:59that the public would baulk at the numbers who were coming in.

0:11:01 > 0:11:04Do you think that the British public was misled

0:11:04 > 0:11:08about how many people from Eastern Europe would come in after 2004?

0:11:08 > 0:11:10That is the charge

0:11:10 > 0:11:13that's been placed against the Labour government of the time.

0:11:13 > 0:11:15Not deliberately misled. They got the facts wrong.

0:11:15 > 0:11:19The figures were wrong, and for that, I think various ministers

0:11:19 > 0:11:22have apologised over the years.

0:11:22 > 0:11:26We had 600,000 vacancies in the economy.

0:11:26 > 0:11:30There was a transition period of seven years,

0:11:30 > 0:11:33but the three most successful economies in Europe -

0:11:33 > 0:11:36ourselves, the Irish Republic and Sweden -

0:11:36 > 0:11:39actually needed people, we needed workers.

0:11:39 > 0:11:42But if you had had the right numbers at that point,

0:11:42 > 0:11:44would you have looked at them and thought,

0:11:44 > 0:11:48"This is going to be a lot for the country to handle,

0:11:48 > 0:11:51"we should think carefully about how we go about this"?

0:11:51 > 0:11:56Perhaps, because the numbers were far higher than we expected,

0:11:56 > 0:11:59and we needed people over here.

0:11:59 > 0:12:01In a sense, the market was working,

0:12:01 > 0:12:04because there were jobs for people to come to.

0:12:04 > 0:12:09But I guess that would have coloured our judgment if the statistics...

0:12:09 > 0:12:11These statistics are never right, by the way.

0:12:11 > 0:12:14No ifs, no buts.

0:12:14 > 0:12:16This is a promise we made to the British people,

0:12:16 > 0:12:19and it is a promise we are keeping.

0:12:21 > 0:12:24Against a long-term rise in migration to Britain,

0:12:24 > 0:12:29David Cameron made a bold pledge in his election manifesto of 2010.

0:12:30 > 0:12:31Net migration to this country

0:12:31 > 0:12:34will be in the order of tens of thousands each year.

0:12:40 > 0:12:43That target has never been met.

0:12:45 > 0:12:47In fact, net migration -

0:12:47 > 0:12:50the number of people arriving minus those leaving the country -

0:12:50 > 0:12:51has risen.

0:12:53 > 0:12:57Last month, the Office for National Statistics revealed that in 2015,

0:12:57 > 0:13:00it was 333,000.

0:13:00 > 0:13:04EU net migration was 184,000.

0:13:07 > 0:13:12Is the level of immigration at the moment acceptable to you?

0:13:13 > 0:13:17The level of immigration in terms of free movement

0:13:17 > 0:13:20is something that I support.

0:13:20 > 0:13:21- The level...- 184,000 people.

0:13:21 > 0:13:24..of immigration that's coming from outside the European Union...

0:13:24 > 0:13:26184,000 people.

0:13:26 > 0:13:29You know, this is not a great crisis, incidentally.

0:13:29 > 0:13:31There is not a crisis out there.

0:13:31 > 0:13:34There is a situation where...

0:13:34 > 0:13:38we need to ensure we have people working in jobs, paying taxes,

0:13:38 > 0:13:41to make sure we can cope with an ageing population.

0:13:44 > 0:13:48There are now an estimated three million EU citizens

0:13:48 > 0:13:49living in Britain.

0:13:51 > 0:13:54The population of the UK is projected to rise

0:13:54 > 0:13:57by more than four million in the next ten years.

0:13:59 > 0:14:02Half of that directly because of immigration

0:14:02 > 0:14:05both from the EU and the rest of the world.

0:14:11 > 0:14:15The principle that the European Union's 500 million citizens

0:14:15 > 0:14:17have freedom of movement

0:14:17 > 0:14:20means that immigration is part of our referendum debate.

0:14:20 > 0:14:24For some, it may well be the defining issue

0:14:24 > 0:14:27when they decide whether to vote Leave or Remain.

0:14:27 > 0:14:31So how can we assess its true impact on the UK?

0:14:31 > 0:14:34One step closer to me, please.

0:14:34 > 0:14:35Yeah.

0:14:37 > 0:14:38Good, perfect.

0:14:41 > 0:14:44Ieva Zu is originally from Lithuania

0:14:44 > 0:14:47and now runs an online business in London

0:14:47 > 0:14:50promoting Eastern European fashion designers.

0:14:53 > 0:14:55London is the perfect place to be,

0:14:55 > 0:14:58because it's a hub of fashion as well.

0:14:58 > 0:15:00At least, I think so.

0:15:03 > 0:15:08Ieva's partner, Paulus, enjoys a successful career in finance,

0:15:08 > 0:15:10and they've started a family here.

0:15:12 > 0:15:17A pin-up couple for those who think migration is good for our economy.

0:15:19 > 0:15:21Is Britain going to be your home?

0:15:21 > 0:15:25As far as we can see in the near future, that seems to be the case.

0:15:25 > 0:15:27Alex was born here one year ago,

0:15:27 > 0:15:31and right now, our world really revolves around him.

0:15:31 > 0:15:35And do you feel that Britain is benefiting from your presence

0:15:35 > 0:15:38in the same way that you've benefited from being here?

0:15:38 > 0:15:40Well, I would hope so,

0:15:40 > 0:15:43that we are, you know, adding value to the society,

0:15:43 > 0:15:46and not just taking it out as a resident.

0:15:46 > 0:15:50Yeah, not as a person who just lives here.

0:15:50 > 0:15:54Coming from Lithuania, that was occupied by the Soviet Union,

0:15:54 > 0:15:57you know, makes you really appreciate

0:15:57 > 0:16:00the freedom that you have, you know?

0:16:04 > 0:16:07In London, more than a third of the population

0:16:07 > 0:16:09was born outside the UK.

0:16:11 > 0:16:15It's the most economically successful part of the country,

0:16:15 > 0:16:18crucial to the national economy.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20Some say the two things are linked.

0:16:20 > 0:16:23I do not think it is controversial to suggest

0:16:23 > 0:16:26that the substantial success of London,

0:16:26 > 0:16:28not just within the UK economy,

0:16:28 > 0:16:32but perhaps within the global economy over the past 20 years,

0:16:32 > 0:16:36is owed in large part to the relatively high levels of migration

0:16:36 > 0:16:38we've had at all skill levels.

0:16:40 > 0:16:42On the whole, European Union migrants

0:16:42 > 0:16:44pay significantly more in taxes

0:16:44 > 0:16:46than they take out in benefits or public services,

0:16:46 > 0:16:50so either we, the rest of us, are paying lower taxes,

0:16:50 > 0:16:53or we're getting better public services

0:16:53 > 0:16:55than we otherwise would have.

0:16:55 > 0:16:58Great. One more time, please. Look at me.

0:16:58 > 0:17:01I would say free movement has been positive for this country.

0:17:01 > 0:17:04This concept that, within those borders,

0:17:04 > 0:17:07within that single market, you can move freely,

0:17:07 > 0:17:11not just goods, not just capital, but labour as well,

0:17:11 > 0:17:14is essential to actually making that operate.

0:17:14 > 0:17:16And, yes, it's been good for this country.

0:17:16 > 0:17:20Witness the fact, you know, the Leave side often say,

0:17:20 > 0:17:23but Britain's the fifth biggest economy in the world.

0:17:23 > 0:17:25Well, it wasn't when we went into the EU.

0:17:25 > 0:17:2743 years' membership of the European Union

0:17:27 > 0:17:31has helped us be the fifth biggest economy in the world.

0:17:31 > 0:17:33Good morning, good morning!

0:17:33 > 0:17:35Thank you.

0:17:35 > 0:17:37Recent figures from the taxman support the assertion

0:17:37 > 0:17:40that migration has been good for the economy.

0:17:42 > 0:17:46In the year 2013 to 2014, European migrants like Ieva

0:17:46 > 0:17:49contributed £2.5 billion more to British coffers

0:17:49 > 0:17:51than they took out.

0:17:57 > 0:18:01But many would argue that any economic benefits of migration

0:18:01 > 0:18:03have not been spread around.

0:18:04 > 0:18:07For the top 4% or 5%,

0:18:07 > 0:18:11they get a gilded life of much cheaper nannies,

0:18:11 > 0:18:16of their basement extensions in Notting Hill

0:18:16 > 0:18:19done both more speedily and more cheaply

0:18:19 > 0:18:22by Polish immigrant labour.

0:18:22 > 0:18:27If you go outside London, you will see that the big, big problem there,

0:18:27 > 0:18:30or one of the big problems, is low wages.

0:18:30 > 0:18:33And those wages have been lowered time and time again

0:18:33 > 0:18:36by cheap labour coming in from the continent.

0:18:37 > 0:18:38PHONE RINGS

0:18:42 > 0:18:44Hello, Angie speaking.

0:18:44 > 0:18:47Angie Cook runs a transport business in Boston, Lincolnshire.

0:18:47 > 0:18:50Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can do that for you.

0:18:50 > 0:18:53She used to supply drivers for the haulage industry,

0:18:53 > 0:18:57but says her company folded because of competition from a rival agency.

0:18:57 > 0:19:009am in the morning. Yeah, no worries at all.

0:19:00 > 0:19:03'They were bringing the drivers over here by the busload.'

0:19:03 > 0:19:05Bye.

0:19:05 > 0:19:08If I'd have reduced the wages for the drivers, they would have left.

0:19:08 > 0:19:14If I reduced the prices to the customer, I wasn't making a profit.

0:19:14 > 0:19:16So where do you go?

0:19:16 > 0:19:19And this was because someone had been across to the EU

0:19:19 > 0:19:21and recruited all these drivers

0:19:21 > 0:19:23and put them in cheap, low-cost housing

0:19:23 > 0:19:27that our drivers and our workers cannot compete with.

0:19:29 > 0:19:33Angie has started a new business, and she'll be voting for Brexit

0:19:33 > 0:19:38because she's had enough of the EU and its supply of cheap workers.

0:19:39 > 0:19:42Now, I don't know if I'm probably going to get in trouble

0:19:42 > 0:19:44for saying this or not, I don't care.

0:19:44 > 0:19:45I only employee English drivers.

0:19:54 > 0:19:56Across Britain,

0:19:56 > 0:20:00hundreds of thousands of European migrants are in low-paid work.

0:20:01 > 0:20:04In sectors like agriculture and tourism,

0:20:04 > 0:20:07they're a vital resource for many businesses.

0:20:08 > 0:20:11It's very difficult to get any of the local people to do the job,

0:20:11 > 0:20:13and it's a very high demanding job as well.

0:20:13 > 0:20:16I started as a field operative.

0:20:16 > 0:20:20Now in the wintertime, I'm a line operative in the factory.

0:20:22 > 0:20:24And I have the chance to be promoted.

0:20:27 > 0:20:29It's often said that Europe's migrants

0:20:29 > 0:20:32will do work that British people won't,

0:20:32 > 0:20:34at least not for a low wage.

0:20:38 > 0:20:41One industry where they play an important role

0:20:41 > 0:20:44is in caring for our ageing population.

0:20:44 > 0:20:48You're going downstairs with me for a cup of tea in the garden.

0:20:48 > 0:20:51One in five of adult care workers in England

0:20:51 > 0:20:56are born outside the UK, rising to three in five in London.

0:20:59 > 0:21:02The number recruited from EU countries has increased,

0:21:02 > 0:21:06and there are now an estimated 80,000 EU citizens

0:21:06 > 0:21:09working in the sector in England alone.

0:21:09 > 0:21:11One of the consequences of us

0:21:11 > 0:21:13increasing the proportion of young people

0:21:13 > 0:21:15who go into higher education, for example,

0:21:15 > 0:21:17is that there are less people available,

0:21:17 > 0:21:20young people available, to do some of those low-skilled jobs.

0:21:20 > 0:21:23People don't want to come out, having a degree,

0:21:23 > 0:21:26and then end up working in the care sector, for example.

0:21:27 > 0:21:30So those demands in the care sector

0:21:30 > 0:21:33become ones that people from within Europe,

0:21:33 > 0:21:36who are arguably low-skilled, come to fill.

0:21:40 > 0:21:43Our economy needs the low-skilled or the unskilled people as well...

0:21:43 > 0:21:44Well, I disagree with you.

0:21:44 > 0:21:48- I fundamentally disagree with you. - Fruit-picking, warehouses...- No.

0:21:48 > 0:21:51This has been an absolute nonsense in the UK economy for some time.

0:21:51 > 0:21:54You get a lot of nonsense from businesses suddenly saying to you,

0:21:54 > 0:21:57oh, we've tried to hire British workers, they just won't work.

0:21:57 > 0:21:59When you investigate it, you find they didn't bother at all.

0:21:59 > 0:22:01They were going outside

0:22:01 > 0:22:03because they knew they could get a lower wage for these people

0:22:03 > 0:22:05and thus, that would improve their profits.

0:22:05 > 0:22:07I am fundamentally against that.

0:22:09 > 0:22:12A Bank of England report found that, broadly,

0:22:12 > 0:22:17migration has had a small negative impact on average British wages.

0:22:19 > 0:22:21And, crucially, it concluded

0:22:21 > 0:22:24that workers at the low-paid end of the spectrum

0:22:24 > 0:22:25have been more affected.

0:22:28 > 0:22:30As a Labour politician,

0:22:30 > 0:22:33a depression of wages must be something that bothers you.

0:22:33 > 0:22:35As a Labour politician and a trade unionist,

0:22:35 > 0:22:38I have never, throughout my career,

0:22:38 > 0:22:42blamed exploitation on the people who are being exploited.

0:22:42 > 0:22:45The trade union movement in this country, I'm proud to say,

0:22:45 > 0:22:49have not found scapegoats amongst immigrants.

0:22:49 > 0:22:51They've tried to tackle the exploitation.

0:22:51 > 0:22:54Now, the Bank of England found a very small - very small -

0:22:54 > 0:22:56difference there.

0:22:56 > 0:22:59It might not feel small to people who are at the receiving end of it.

0:22:59 > 0:23:03Well, that's about where you set the minimum wage.

0:23:03 > 0:23:06That's about issues like the Agency Workers Directive.

0:23:06 > 0:23:09It's a protection that British workers have.

0:23:09 > 0:23:10Most people coming in

0:23:10 > 0:23:14who will undercut the wage of those who are working here

0:23:14 > 0:23:15come in through agencies.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18The Agency Workers Directive was a very important way

0:23:18 > 0:23:21of stopping that through the European Union.

0:23:23 > 0:23:27But this debate is about more than pay.

0:23:27 > 0:23:28What will the other effects be

0:23:28 > 0:23:32if our population really does increase by ten million

0:23:32 > 0:23:35in the next 25 years, as projected?

0:23:37 > 0:23:41The obvious place to start is with the sheer numbers.

0:23:41 > 0:23:45Can Britain really support millions of newcomers?

0:23:49 > 0:23:53Many are asking, where will they all live?

0:23:53 > 0:23:59To meet the needs of the population increase

0:23:59 > 0:24:03that is largely the result of that scale of immigration,

0:24:03 > 0:24:04we would have to build

0:24:04 > 0:24:07something like a quarter of a million houses a year.

0:24:07 > 0:24:09We're building nothing like that.

0:24:12 > 0:24:14It's a nonsense to suggest that

0:24:14 > 0:24:19we're going to suddenly build that number of houses that are required,

0:24:19 > 0:24:22be it in London or elsewhere throughout the country.

0:24:22 > 0:24:24We're simply not going to do it.

0:24:24 > 0:24:28So all that is going to mean is more and more of a shortage of housing,

0:24:28 > 0:24:31largely because of the increase in our population

0:24:31 > 0:24:34which, as I say, is largely driven by migration.

0:24:36 > 0:24:38Most of that population growth will,

0:24:38 > 0:24:41as it has done over the last 15 years,

0:24:41 > 0:24:45probably occur in London and the rest of south-east England

0:24:45 > 0:24:48where, of course, we know that we don't build enough houses.

0:24:48 > 0:24:51The reason we don't build enough houses is, of course,

0:24:51 > 0:24:54relatively little to do with immigration.

0:24:54 > 0:24:58That reflects the dysfunctional nature of UK housing policy

0:24:58 > 0:25:02going back for at least the past 20 or 30 years or so,

0:25:02 > 0:25:05the failure of successive governments

0:25:05 > 0:25:08simply to ensure that we build enough houses.

0:25:08 > 0:25:11But there's no doubt this is a major challenge going forward.

0:25:22 > 0:25:26So if we may have trouble housing a growing population,

0:25:26 > 0:25:29what about the impact of migrants from the European Union

0:25:29 > 0:25:32on public services like health and education?

0:25:36 > 0:25:38To find out, I headed to the city

0:25:38 > 0:25:41with one of the highest proportions of EU migrants

0:25:41 > 0:25:43anywhere in the country.

0:25:44 > 0:25:46Peterborough in Cambridge.

0:25:46 > 0:25:48This part of Peterborough

0:25:48 > 0:25:52has seen large numbers of people come in from Europe in recent years.

0:25:52 > 0:25:56Portuguese, Poles, Lithuanians, all have made the city their home.

0:25:56 > 0:26:00Welcome to what is appropriately named New England.

0:26:04 > 0:26:07Many of the migrants come here to work in agriculture.

0:26:07 > 0:26:11Many farmers believe they are essential to the local economy.

0:26:13 > 0:26:16But what is the impact on local services?

0:26:24 > 0:26:26This is Fulbridge Academy,

0:26:26 > 0:26:31a primary school ranked outstanding by the schools regulator, Ofsted.

0:26:35 > 0:26:38I've been at Fulbridge Academy for a very long time,

0:26:38 > 0:26:42over 20 years here as head, so I've seen enormous changes.

0:26:43 > 0:26:45- Where have you been? - I've just been...

0:26:45 > 0:26:48The main change, really, has been the numbers game.

0:26:48 > 0:26:52It's been a huge increase in the number of children in the area.

0:26:52 > 0:26:55It's a densely populated area anyway.

0:26:55 > 0:26:58But with all the different nationalities come in,

0:26:58 > 0:27:01that put enormous strain on school places.

0:27:01 > 0:27:04And if you look at the paragraph that you have in front of you...

0:27:04 > 0:27:08A quarter of this school's pupils come from Eastern Europe.

0:27:10 > 0:27:13And like other parts of the UK with high number of migrants,

0:27:13 > 0:27:16there is real competition for places.

0:27:16 > 0:27:19But nationally, a different picture emerges.

0:27:19 > 0:27:22We know that most children in Britain do, in fact,

0:27:22 > 0:27:24get into the school they want.

0:27:25 > 0:27:3084% of families in this country

0:27:30 > 0:27:34get their first choice of secondary school, so it doesn't suggest

0:27:34 > 0:27:36that there's a massive problem with school places.

0:27:36 > 0:27:39No, but the recent report from the Education Department

0:27:39 > 0:27:41made it very clear that they are having to build

0:27:41 > 0:27:43significantly more numbers of schools

0:27:43 > 0:27:47to deal with the plan and the forecast on migration

0:27:47 > 0:27:48and the existing migration.

0:27:48 > 0:27:50It's just what they've said.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53And even beyond that, there is a strong perception and a recognition

0:27:53 > 0:27:56that it does play a role for the British public.

0:27:56 > 0:27:58So there is one way to deal with it. You can dismiss it.

0:27:58 > 0:28:01You can say that 84% means not a problem to settle, not an issue,

0:28:01 > 0:28:03they're talking nonsense.

0:28:03 > 0:28:06In which case, this will just grow and grow as a concern,

0:28:06 > 0:28:09because it's not being dealt with by British politicians.

0:28:10 > 0:28:13But apart from potential competition for places,

0:28:13 > 0:28:17what is the effect of an influx of migrants on standards?

0:28:18 > 0:28:22We've certainly found that children from other nationalities,

0:28:22 > 0:28:25particularly Eastern European communities,

0:28:25 > 0:28:27are very keen on education,

0:28:27 > 0:28:30very positive about their children doing well,

0:28:30 > 0:28:34and many of the children become, by Year 6, when they leave us,

0:28:34 > 0:28:37if we've had them for four or five years,

0:28:37 > 0:28:40they can be some of our highest achieving children.

0:28:40 > 0:28:43..I'd like to play A and E.

0:28:43 > 0:28:45CHILD PLAYS NOTES

0:28:45 > 0:28:47There isn't a huge amount of evidence

0:28:47 > 0:28:51on how that's affecting what we care about at the end of the day,

0:28:51 > 0:28:54which is the outcomes for pupils in UK schools.

0:28:54 > 0:28:55OK...

0:28:55 > 0:28:57But the couple of studies that have been done

0:28:57 > 0:29:00were not able to identify any negative impact.

0:29:00 > 0:29:04They suggested that students are doing just as well

0:29:04 > 0:29:08regardless of whether there are new migrants coming into those schools.

0:29:14 > 0:29:19Another vital service always close to voters' hearts is the NHS.

0:29:21 > 0:29:24We all know the huge pressures the system is under.

0:29:24 > 0:29:28What will happen if the population increases as projected?

0:29:30 > 0:29:32In Peterborough, doctors are feeling the strain

0:29:32 > 0:29:36of treating migrant workers and their families.

0:29:36 > 0:29:38We do have a large number

0:29:38 > 0:29:40relative to other parts of the country

0:29:40 > 0:29:44in houses of multiple occupancy, so several families in one house.

0:29:44 > 0:29:47You know, sometimes a family in one room.

0:29:47 > 0:29:49And, as I say, the actual quality of the housing

0:29:49 > 0:29:51is often, you know, poor.

0:29:51 > 0:29:56So there are houses round here that are very damp.

0:29:56 > 0:29:58That in itself causes the high risk

0:29:58 > 0:30:00of things like respiratory infections.

0:30:00 > 0:30:03We do find that whole families and households

0:30:03 > 0:30:05present with infections particularly.

0:30:05 > 0:30:07- Including the children?- Absolutely.

0:30:07 > 0:30:11So, again, if you look at the A&E figures for our local hospital,

0:30:11 > 0:30:14they're high particularly for respiratory infections

0:30:14 > 0:30:16and in the younger group.

0:30:17 > 0:30:19Do you therefore see migration

0:30:19 > 0:30:25as an added pressure on the service you can offer as a local GP?

0:30:25 > 0:30:27Yes, absolutely definitely.

0:30:27 > 0:30:30And I think the number of challenges for me,

0:30:30 > 0:30:34since working in Peterborough, is unbelievable, actually.

0:30:34 > 0:30:36So I think language,

0:30:36 > 0:30:39the whole difference in health beliefs and behaviour

0:30:39 > 0:30:42and, actually, the higher sort of prevalence of illnesses

0:30:42 > 0:30:46related to poverty and difficult housing conditions

0:30:46 > 0:30:48would be, you know, three of the biggest issues.

0:30:51 > 0:30:53With such a high concentration of migrants,

0:30:53 > 0:30:55Peterborough is far from typical.

0:30:58 > 0:31:00Nationally, the picture is mixed.

0:31:03 > 0:31:05Most migrants are young,

0:31:05 > 0:31:08so they use health services much less than average.

0:31:08 > 0:31:11For the same reason, they have more children,

0:31:11 > 0:31:14so maternity units can face extra pressure.

0:31:15 > 0:31:19But there is something missing in the argument you often hear

0:31:19 > 0:31:23about migration putting pressure on public services as a whole.

0:31:23 > 0:31:28Most of the arrivals from the EU are working and paying taxes.

0:31:28 > 0:31:30Surely that extra money

0:31:30 > 0:31:34should help pay for extra demand on hospitals and schools.

0:31:37 > 0:31:40Shouldn't see a big impact on services overall.

0:31:40 > 0:31:43There may be some localised pressures for particular areas

0:31:43 > 0:31:47if there are unexpected increases in demand.

0:31:47 > 0:31:51There is also another factor that's actually very difficult to quantify,

0:31:51 > 0:31:54which is the contributions of EU migrants

0:31:54 > 0:31:56as workers in the health service.

0:31:56 > 0:31:58So, for example, last year,

0:31:58 > 0:32:03about 12% of newly recruited nurses working in the UK

0:32:03 > 0:32:05were born in EU countries,

0:32:05 > 0:32:07so they're making up a significant share of that workforce.

0:32:09 > 0:32:13Something is going wrong in the way that we are spending

0:32:13 > 0:32:16what we get in income tax, for example, from these EU migrants.

0:32:16 > 0:32:19The Revenue & Customs said recently

0:32:19 > 0:32:22that EU migrants pay about £3 billion a year in taxes.

0:32:22 > 0:32:24Is it getting lost somewhere?

0:32:24 > 0:32:27Why is it that we have the effect on services you're talking about?

0:32:27 > 0:32:29It's a very narrow way of looking at it.

0:32:29 > 0:32:32It's not about saying it's OK because someone pays taxes,

0:32:32 > 0:32:35so that's fine, you know, because it's not the sole issue.

0:32:35 > 0:32:37The issue I come back to is about human beings.

0:32:37 > 0:32:39We tend to put these things into just the money,

0:32:39 > 0:32:41but it's human beings,

0:32:41 > 0:32:43and the nature and the scale of that immigration

0:32:43 > 0:32:46puts pressure on people in the way that they assimilate with people

0:32:46 > 0:32:49who, often, they are not speaking English as a first language,

0:32:49 > 0:32:51often bringing their kids over...

0:32:51 > 0:32:53That makes the British people uncomfortable in many places

0:32:53 > 0:32:57because it is on a scale that they would otherwise not have expected.

0:32:57 > 0:33:00We expect a lot from people who live in communities

0:33:00 > 0:33:03and have to accommodate this, have to live with it,

0:33:03 > 0:33:05have to sort out their schooling,

0:33:05 > 0:33:07many people competing for jobs with them.

0:33:07 > 0:33:10I think, therefore, controlling the scale of that migration

0:33:10 > 0:33:14is important so that they have time to be able to get to terms with that

0:33:14 > 0:33:16without feeling as though this is a problem for them.

0:33:18 > 0:33:20When we talk about migration into Britain,

0:33:20 > 0:33:23the debate is rarely just about the numbers

0:33:23 > 0:33:26or about the pressures of a growing population.

0:33:26 > 0:33:31It's often been linked to something else, something emotive,

0:33:31 > 0:33:34something that reverberates across the UK -

0:33:34 > 0:33:37who gets what from the benefit system?

0:33:37 > 0:33:40Morning, all. Good morning, good morning.

0:33:40 > 0:33:41Good morning.

0:33:46 > 0:33:48In the build-up to the referendum,

0:33:48 > 0:33:51David Cameron spent months touring around Europe

0:33:51 > 0:33:53renegotiating our membership of the EU...

0:33:55 > 0:33:57Are we on the other side?

0:33:57 > 0:34:00..getting, he claimed, a better deal for Britain

0:34:00 > 0:34:02that would persuade us to stay.

0:34:02 > 0:34:03I'll be battling for Britain.

0:34:03 > 0:34:06If we can get a good deal, I'll take that deal.

0:34:06 > 0:34:10But I will not take a deal that doesn't meet what we need.

0:34:11 > 0:34:12Top of the British list

0:34:12 > 0:34:15was putting a stop to so-called benefits tourism.

0:34:17 > 0:34:19This deal has delivered on the commitments I made

0:34:19 > 0:34:22at the beginning of this renegotiation process.

0:34:22 > 0:34:24There will be tough new restrictions

0:34:24 > 0:34:28on access to our welfare system for EU migrants.

0:34:28 > 0:34:30No more something for nothing.

0:34:32 > 0:34:34The Prime Minister's deal

0:34:34 > 0:34:36involved partial restrictions to child benefit

0:34:36 > 0:34:39as well as a four-year so-called break

0:34:39 > 0:34:42on migrants' ability to claim in work benefits.

0:34:42 > 0:34:44- MAN:- Goodnight, Dave. Goodnight.

0:34:45 > 0:34:48Many were sceptical about the chances of this

0:34:48 > 0:34:50reducing the numbers.

0:34:52 > 0:34:54We had this somewhat bizarre argument

0:34:54 > 0:34:57during the renegotiation with Brussels that, again,

0:34:57 > 0:35:01the country can control net migration

0:35:01 > 0:35:07by restricting the amount of welfare for EU migrant workers,

0:35:07 > 0:35:09as if Bulgarians, Romanians and Poles

0:35:09 > 0:35:14are going through the welfare policies of European states

0:35:14 > 0:35:16and are adjusting their plans accordingly.

0:35:19 > 0:35:21Now the Vote Leave campaigners,

0:35:21 > 0:35:23even those who were part of Cameron's government,

0:35:23 > 0:35:26seem to want to distance themselves from the whole issue.

0:35:28 > 0:35:33Is there such a thing in your view as benefit tourism from the EU?

0:35:33 > 0:35:37I think, if I'm honest about it, I think there may be.

0:35:37 > 0:35:39It's very difficult to nail down the figures in this.

0:35:39 > 0:35:42I mean, I did see somebody say that most people in Eastern Europe

0:35:42 > 0:35:45didn't actually know what the benefits were here.

0:35:45 > 0:35:48So I'm a little ambivalent about this one.

0:35:48 > 0:35:50Because you sounded pretty convinced about it last year

0:35:50 > 0:35:53when you said that, you know, benefit tourism

0:35:53 > 0:35:55was a nut that you wanted to crack.

0:35:55 > 0:35:57Yes, I think for those that do come over...

0:35:57 > 0:35:59I've never said they're a vast number.

0:35:59 > 0:36:03If the question is, do I think that it is a huge driver

0:36:03 > 0:36:06for people coming over here, the answer's categorically not.

0:36:06 > 0:36:08So it turned out to be not such a large nut...?

0:36:08 > 0:36:10Well, it's a nut in the sense

0:36:10 > 0:36:13of having people over here collecting benefits,

0:36:13 > 0:36:16in a certain degree, particularly things like family benefits,

0:36:16 > 0:36:18which struck me as absurd.

0:36:18 > 0:36:23But as I said at the time, this is AN issue, it's not THE issue.

0:36:23 > 0:36:26In fact, EU migrants are less likely than UK nationals

0:36:26 > 0:36:29to claim unemployment benefit, housing benefit, tax credits...

0:36:29 > 0:36:31I don't...resile from that at all. That's probably true.

0:36:43 > 0:36:47Attitudes to immigration vary across the country,

0:36:47 > 0:36:49including north of the border.

0:36:54 > 0:36:57I've come to one part of the UK where, for some migrants at least,

0:36:57 > 0:37:01the welcome mat has been well and truly laid out.

0:37:01 > 0:37:05The party in government here is a rarity in British politics.

0:37:05 > 0:37:08One that has campaigned for more immigration.

0:37:10 > 0:37:13Scotland's free university education

0:37:13 > 0:37:16is a huge pull for young people from across the EU.

0:37:20 > 0:37:24Like these Edinburgh University students from Poland and Slovakia.

0:37:27 > 0:37:30And immigration is perceived less negatively in Scotland

0:37:30 > 0:37:32than other parts of the UK.

0:37:35 > 0:37:36Whoo!

0:37:36 > 0:37:38Do you feel welcome here?

0:37:38 > 0:37:40Yeah, I feel great.

0:37:40 > 0:37:43Especially here in Edinburgh, I feel really welcome.

0:37:43 > 0:37:46I met lots of great friends, both Scottish and international.

0:37:46 > 0:37:49So, yeah, I feel really...

0:37:49 > 0:37:53really welcome and comfortable here in Scotland.

0:37:58 > 0:38:00So, why the warm welcome?

0:38:00 > 0:38:05As its population ages, Scotland is simply said to need more people,

0:38:05 > 0:38:08particularly more people of working age.

0:38:08 > 0:38:11The Scottish government and the Treasury believe

0:38:11 > 0:38:13that that may only be fully achievable

0:38:13 > 0:38:16through an influx of migrants.

0:38:17 > 0:38:19The Scottish National Party

0:38:19 > 0:38:22has been enthusiastic about the benefits of immigration

0:38:22 > 0:38:25and free movement of people in the European Union.

0:38:26 > 0:38:29Scotland's a country that's benefited

0:38:29 > 0:38:30from immigration over the years.

0:38:30 > 0:38:33I think about Polish communities who've made their home here,

0:38:33 > 0:38:34Irish communities,

0:38:34 > 0:38:37English people have come up, and people from across Europe.

0:38:37 > 0:38:40One thing I think that's lacking from the debate a little bit

0:38:40 > 0:38:44is just a general acceptance that immigration is a good thing,

0:38:44 > 0:38:45and our country's the richer,

0:38:45 > 0:38:48socially and economically, because of immigration.

0:38:48 > 0:38:51And let's not forget that

0:38:51 > 0:38:55if you were to take every EU migrant out of the workforce,

0:38:55 > 0:38:59the Chancellor would be left with an enormous black hole in the Treasury,

0:38:59 > 0:39:01given the amount that they make up

0:39:01 > 0:39:03in terms of their net contribution to our finances.

0:39:03 > 0:39:05And Eastern European immigration,

0:39:05 > 0:39:07or immigration from other parts of the EU,

0:39:07 > 0:39:09would be a big part of what you want?

0:39:09 > 0:39:11Of course, that's freedom of movement, isn't it?

0:39:11 > 0:39:14It's something in this European debate I think we lose sometimes.

0:39:14 > 0:39:16Freedom of movement works both ways.

0:39:16 > 0:39:19People from the UK benefit as much as people from elsewhere in Europe.

0:39:19 > 0:39:22Freedom of movement is a two-way process.

0:39:29 > 0:39:32The freedom to live and work in any member state

0:39:32 > 0:39:36is a fundamental right of EU citizens.

0:39:36 > 0:39:38- RATTLING - What is it?- What, the rattle?

0:39:38 > 0:39:40Not sure yet.

0:39:40 > 0:39:43It's something that has changed John and Irene's lives.

0:39:43 > 0:39:46Like more than a million other Britons,

0:39:46 > 0:39:49they live elsewhere in the European Union.

0:40:04 > 0:40:06Can't get this to work.

0:40:06 > 0:40:09- You need a woman's touch. - Go on, then.

0:40:09 > 0:40:13The couple run a go-karting business on the Spanish island of Lanzarote.

0:40:16 > 0:40:17I'm an Barnsley ex-miner.

0:40:17 > 0:40:20My dad was a miner, and my grandad before him.

0:40:22 > 0:40:25First holiday I ever came on abroad was to Lanzarote

0:40:25 > 0:40:27when I were a coal miner,

0:40:27 > 0:40:29and I fell in love with the place then,

0:40:29 > 0:40:33and that became my dream, to come and live in Lanzarote.

0:40:36 > 0:40:37We've got a great set of boys,

0:40:37 > 0:40:39and we don't have a big turnover of staff

0:40:39 > 0:40:42because it's a boy's dream, isn't it, this job?

0:40:42 > 0:40:45So it's the nearest thing to a nine to five,

0:40:45 > 0:40:46but, yeah, great.

0:40:46 > 0:40:48And I'm the only girl.

0:40:48 > 0:40:50But they all do as they're told!

0:40:50 > 0:40:51SHE LAUGHS

0:40:58 > 0:41:02John and Irene are worried about the referendum.

0:41:02 > 0:41:06Their business relies on free trade imports from the UK.

0:41:06 > 0:41:08If Britain leaves the EU,

0:41:08 > 0:41:12they're concerned about the possibility of paying tariffs.

0:41:12 > 0:41:15We're definitely going to vote. We discussed it at length.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18We can vote in general elections, but we never do.

0:41:18 > 0:41:21We feel, because we're not living in the UK any more,

0:41:21 > 0:41:24that, really, we don't feel we should do that.

0:41:24 > 0:41:26But this EU referendum is obviously a lot different,

0:41:26 > 0:41:27because it will affect us.

0:41:27 > 0:41:30We're immigrants, in effect, in this country,

0:41:30 > 0:41:33and, obviously, with regard to the business,

0:41:33 > 0:41:36we have a lot of suppliers that come from the UK

0:41:36 > 0:41:40and, obviously, any trade agreement that ceases

0:41:40 > 0:41:41would affect this business.

0:41:41 > 0:41:43So we're looking at it very closely.

0:41:43 > 0:41:46The EU is a big, big thing, isn't it, darling, for us at the minute?

0:41:46 > 0:41:49- It's a big unknown, a big worry. - It's a very big unknown.

0:41:56 > 0:41:58It's not just those of working age

0:41:58 > 0:42:00who've taken advantage of free movement.

0:42:02 > 0:42:04It's the best thing we ever did.

0:42:04 > 0:42:07Yeah, by coming here, quite honestly,

0:42:07 > 0:42:10I think Tony wouldn't have been so healthy.

0:42:13 > 0:42:15At the other end of the island,

0:42:15 > 0:42:19Tony and Robina are among the 400,000 British pensioners

0:42:19 > 0:42:21living elsewhere in the EU.

0:42:26 > 0:42:28Do you want some olives in there?

0:42:28 > 0:42:30- Yeah.- Yeah?- Why not?

0:42:30 > 0:42:31As EU pensioners,

0:42:31 > 0:42:35they are entitled to the same health care they would get at home.

0:42:35 > 0:42:38That needs a little bit of this.

0:42:38 > 0:42:40They can use all the local services

0:42:40 > 0:42:42and their health care bill is effectively picked up

0:42:42 > 0:42:44by the British taxpayer.

0:42:44 > 0:42:45Yummy!

0:42:46 > 0:42:51- Wonderful. And the health care here is...- Excellent.

0:42:51 > 0:42:53..total. It's very, very good.

0:42:53 > 0:42:58If you have something more serious, say a heart condition,

0:42:58 > 0:43:00you'd go to Las Palmas...

0:43:00 > 0:43:04And Tony went to Las Palmas, he had a small problem,

0:43:04 > 0:43:09went to Las Palmas, they paid for us to fly there.

0:43:09 > 0:43:11They put me in a hotel.

0:43:11 > 0:43:13All free. Everything.

0:43:13 > 0:43:17And they looked after Tony extremely well.

0:43:17 > 0:43:20You couldn't have faulted it. It was excellent service.

0:43:27 > 0:43:29Tony and Robina also have children

0:43:29 > 0:43:32living and working across the European Union.

0:43:36 > 0:43:41For their family, Europe's free movement of people is a big plus.

0:43:43 > 0:43:47But they do understand why some back home would want to vote to leave.

0:43:49 > 0:43:51Because I live here,

0:43:51 > 0:43:56and I've seen this island benefit totally from the EU,

0:43:56 > 0:43:58and it's great.

0:43:58 > 0:44:00But if I lived in England...

0:44:02 > 0:44:04..it might be a different story.

0:44:04 > 0:44:06You know, I think that...

0:44:07 > 0:44:10I think I would probably go the other way.

0:44:10 > 0:44:12But living here,

0:44:12 > 0:44:14I can't fault it,

0:44:14 > 0:44:17because they get so much, you know.

0:44:17 > 0:44:20We get so much, you know. Not they - we.

0:44:20 > 0:44:22We get so much from it!

0:44:27 > 0:44:29SHOUTING

0:44:34 > 0:44:36It's a long way from Lanzarote

0:44:36 > 0:44:40to the chaos that's been seen on some of Europe's borders.

0:44:41 > 0:44:45- REPORTER:- Today, on a European border, children were teargassed.

0:44:53 > 0:44:55But Europe has been rocked

0:44:55 > 0:44:58by the huge numbers of refugees and migrants

0:44:58 > 0:45:00entering from Turkey and North Africa.

0:45:04 > 0:45:08Germany alone last year registered over a million new arrivals.

0:45:08 > 0:45:11It's been controversial across the continent.

0:45:13 > 0:45:19Every time that this fantasy land of integration

0:45:19 > 0:45:22that Germany believes it can foster

0:45:22 > 0:45:28with migrants from the Middle East and North Africa...

0:45:28 > 0:45:32falls down into a chaos of sexual assaults, robberies and violence,

0:45:32 > 0:45:34every time that is reported,

0:45:34 > 0:45:36every time the security chiefs tell us

0:45:36 > 0:45:40that for every 200 migrants coming here,

0:45:40 > 0:45:43one will be a supporter of Isis...

0:45:43 > 0:45:44every time that happens

0:45:44 > 0:45:47then the vote to leave the EU goes up a little bit.

0:45:53 > 0:45:57Several EU countries have agreed to take large numbers of refugees.

0:46:00 > 0:46:04To be clear, the UK has said that it won't be part of that system

0:46:04 > 0:46:07and that...there's no reason why that would change.

0:46:07 > 0:46:12So the UK, Denmark and Ireland are not part of that allocation.

0:46:14 > 0:46:17What the UK has said that it will do instead

0:46:17 > 0:46:19is to offer up 20,000 places

0:46:19 > 0:46:21to people who have not yet come to Europe,

0:46:21 > 0:46:25so from camps in Jordan and Lebanon in particular,

0:46:25 > 0:46:29and that they will come in quite gradually over a five-year period.

0:46:29 > 0:46:34So although Britain is part of the European Union currently,

0:46:34 > 0:46:37what we can see from that is that, actually,

0:46:37 > 0:46:40the UK has been able to exert, rightly or wrongly,

0:46:40 > 0:46:41quite a lot of control.

0:46:48 > 0:46:51It's places like this, the borders of our island nation,

0:46:51 > 0:46:56that have become increasingly linked with the question of EU immigration.

0:46:56 > 0:46:59The Leavers say it's simple.

0:46:59 > 0:47:01Outside the EU, we would have control,

0:47:01 > 0:47:05the ability to exclude people from the country.

0:47:05 > 0:47:08The Remainers say we already have control.

0:47:08 > 0:47:12Both argue that their vision makes us more secure.

0:47:23 > 0:47:26Following the terrible attacks in Paris and Brussels,

0:47:26 > 0:47:29many fear that Britain, too, is vulnerable.

0:47:32 > 0:47:34Once you're a citizen of the European Union,

0:47:34 > 0:47:38it is incredibly difficult for us to exclude somebody in that case

0:47:38 > 0:47:40because we have to be able to demonstrate,

0:47:40 > 0:47:42peradventure to the court,

0:47:42 > 0:47:45that we are seeing something of a direct threat.

0:47:45 > 0:47:49So we don't have that control, and that may seem to you to be marginal,

0:47:49 > 0:47:51but that marginal may be the difference

0:47:51 > 0:47:54in being able to say to somebody we just don't want them here.

0:47:56 > 0:48:01No-one waltzes into this country without showing their passport,

0:48:01 > 0:48:03so it's not an open-door policy.

0:48:05 > 0:48:09We refuse around about 1,000, 2,000 a year of people

0:48:09 > 0:48:11because we think they're either a danger...

0:48:11 > 0:48:14It's a tiny fraction of the overall numbers of EU citizens...

0:48:14 > 0:48:16Yeah, but it's indicative of the fact

0:48:16 > 0:48:19that you cannot just come to this country.

0:48:19 > 0:48:21We shouldn't have an anything goes policy,

0:48:21 > 0:48:23and we don't have an anything goes policy.

0:48:25 > 0:48:27ACCORDION MUSIC PLAYS

0:48:32 > 0:48:34INAUDIBLE

0:48:37 > 0:48:39However we vote in the referendum,

0:48:39 > 0:48:42it's clear that migration from Europe

0:48:42 > 0:48:44has already brought great change.

0:48:47 > 0:48:49This is Days Of Poland,

0:48:49 > 0:48:52the biggest Eastern European festival in Britain.

0:48:52 > 0:48:55This year, it attracted thousands of visitors.

0:48:57 > 0:49:00A festival on this scale would have been hard to imagine

0:49:00 > 0:49:02just a decade ago.

0:49:02 > 0:49:06But since then, the Polish population has grown tenfold.

0:49:11 > 0:49:15There are now around 800,000 Poles living in the UK.

0:49:18 > 0:49:22While many are recent arrivals, some have been here for decades

0:49:22 > 0:49:26and are completely integrated into British society.

0:49:26 > 0:49:29I came to England when I was three months old.

0:49:29 > 0:49:32And yet these Polish traditions, Polish culture,

0:49:32 > 0:49:34obviously very important to you.

0:49:34 > 0:49:36Very important to me.

0:49:36 > 0:49:39I'm proud to be British, I love living in England,

0:49:39 > 0:49:42and I love so much about England,

0:49:42 > 0:49:44I wouldn't dream of living anywhere else,

0:49:44 > 0:49:47and I love being Polish.

0:49:51 > 0:49:54There's no doubt that free movement of labour

0:49:54 > 0:49:56has been great for many Eastern Europeans.

0:49:58 > 0:49:59And some would argue

0:49:59 > 0:50:03there's been little negative impact on our communities.

0:50:05 > 0:50:07SHE SPEAKS IN HER OWN LANGUAGE

0:50:09 > 0:50:11If you look at the data,

0:50:11 > 0:50:15if you look at the results of the community cohesion survey,

0:50:15 > 0:50:20the vast majority of English people still think that

0:50:20 > 0:50:23the place where they live is a place where people get on pretty well,

0:50:23 > 0:50:26a place where there are high levels of social cohesion,

0:50:26 > 0:50:28however you want to define it.

0:50:30 > 0:50:32CHOIR SINGS

0:50:40 > 0:50:44Back in Peterborough, 11-year-old Agata is a chorister

0:50:44 > 0:50:47at a prestigious Church Of England school.

0:50:49 > 0:50:51She came to live here as a baby

0:50:51 > 0:50:55when her Polish parents decided to settle in Britain.

0:51:01 > 0:51:05Yeah, we like, also, international food.

0:51:05 > 0:51:08'Today, the whole family are British citizens.'

0:51:08 > 0:51:10Chicken korma...

0:51:10 > 0:51:12Agata and her parents, Grazyna and Tomas,

0:51:12 > 0:51:16feel they are well integrated, not least with the language.

0:51:16 > 0:51:18Um...

0:51:18 > 0:51:20I'd been living for 30 years in Poland.

0:51:20 > 0:51:22For me, it's definitely second language.

0:51:22 > 0:51:25For her, it's first language. It's a big difference between us.

0:51:25 > 0:51:29She has got schooling, she's been raised here.

0:51:29 > 0:51:32And when people ask you where are you from, what do you say?

0:51:32 > 0:51:35I just say I'm from Poland.

0:51:35 > 0:51:38And... Yeah, I...

0:51:38 > 0:51:43For about three years, some people didn't know I was born in Poland.

0:51:43 > 0:51:48Sometimes they asked where I was born, and I say, "In Poland."

0:51:48 > 0:51:52They just think, "Oh, really?!" But they don't believe me.

0:51:55 > 0:52:00- Because you sound just like them. - I think so, yeah.

0:52:00 > 0:52:01What would you say to someone

0:52:01 > 0:52:06who is going to vote for the UK to leave the European Union?

0:52:06 > 0:52:08Crazy.

0:52:08 > 0:52:13I just think... It is... For me, it's...

0:52:15 > 0:52:18People don't realise how many benefits we've got

0:52:18 > 0:52:20staying in the EU.

0:52:20 > 0:52:25So many small countries in unity, there is our strength.

0:52:26 > 0:52:29I want to be welcoming to all people from all nationalities,

0:52:29 > 0:52:33but there is an issue, if you let people come in,

0:52:33 > 0:52:36you know, the growing numbers that there are,

0:52:36 > 0:52:38at a scale which is unprecedented,

0:52:38 > 0:52:41my argument is that it therefore puts pressure on people.

0:52:41 > 0:52:44The public knows a lot better than the BBC does about immigration

0:52:44 > 0:52:48and has a far better grip of the subject.

0:52:48 > 0:52:51And they can see that Polish people...

0:52:51 > 0:52:53There's no cultural problem.

0:52:53 > 0:52:56There is not the remotest cultural problem at all.

0:52:56 > 0:52:59There is an economic problem, and they wish it would stop,

0:52:59 > 0:53:01because it harms their income.

0:53:07 > 0:53:09You can even see negative perceptions

0:53:09 > 0:53:13in communities established by previous phases of immigration.

0:53:16 > 0:53:19This is Brixton in south London.

0:53:21 > 0:53:25Don't get me wrong, Mishal. I do support migration to an extent.

0:53:25 > 0:53:29But my concern is that there has to be some control

0:53:29 > 0:53:33as to how much we can realistically accept

0:53:33 > 0:53:37without causing any particular damage to the system.

0:53:37 > 0:53:40We welcome them, but we have to have a cap

0:53:40 > 0:53:43or else we're going to have such an influx that we can't manage.

0:53:46 > 0:53:48I saw some statistics the other day,

0:53:48 > 0:53:51and the majority of these people are coming here to work.

0:53:51 > 0:53:54It does affect our housing, but then why aren't we building houses?

0:53:54 > 0:53:56We didn't have enough houses for our own people.

0:53:56 > 0:53:59What are the important issues for you?

0:53:59 > 0:54:01It's jobs

0:54:01 > 0:54:05and, of course, also the issue about immigration

0:54:05 > 0:54:08and a whole lot of people coming here

0:54:08 > 0:54:13and basically not working, feeding off the benefit system.

0:54:13 > 0:54:17- So that's a big issue.- Yeah, it is.

0:54:17 > 0:54:22- So...- Is it an issue that would make you vote to leave?

0:54:23 > 0:54:27- For me, yes, maybe. - Yeah, of course it will be.

0:54:27 > 0:54:30There are a lot of people here now, so...

0:54:31 > 0:54:35If we be by ourselves, I think it will be much better.

0:54:35 > 0:54:36Too many migrants.

0:54:39 > 0:54:42There's no doubt that immigration is a complicated

0:54:42 > 0:54:44and an emotive issue.

0:54:44 > 0:54:48Survey after survey has shown that most people in Britain

0:54:48 > 0:54:51favour a reduction in the numbers coming in.

0:54:51 > 0:54:53Leaving the EU could lower those numbers,

0:54:53 > 0:54:55although it's important to remember

0:54:55 > 0:54:57that around half of all net migration

0:54:57 > 0:55:00has nothing to do with the EU.

0:55:00 > 0:55:01Those who want us to stay in

0:55:01 > 0:55:05say that we'd be mad to take the economic risk of leaving

0:55:05 > 0:55:08just to reduce immigration.

0:55:08 > 0:55:11- Vote Leave.- Vote Leave. - Vote Leave.- Vote Leave.

0:55:14 > 0:55:17It's an argument playing out among the politicians...

0:55:17 > 0:55:19Good. Good.

0:55:19 > 0:55:21You will fundamentally damage our economy.

0:55:21 > 0:55:24That cannot be the right way of controlling immigration.

0:55:24 > 0:55:28You have absolutely no way of stopping it.

0:55:29 > 0:55:32..and on the streets.

0:55:32 > 0:55:34I think two things will decide the referendum.

0:55:34 > 0:55:39Leaving the EU is a one-way ticket to a poorer Britain.

0:55:39 > 0:55:42One is if people think they're going to be skint

0:55:42 > 0:55:45as a consequence of us leaving the European Union.

0:55:45 > 0:55:47Knickers to the pessimists! How about that?

0:55:47 > 0:55:48The other is

0:55:48 > 0:55:52if there may be a way to address our immigration problem

0:55:52 > 0:55:53by leaving the EU.

0:55:53 > 0:55:56There are good ways of controlling migration

0:55:56 > 0:55:58and there are bad ways.

0:55:58 > 0:56:01A good way is doing what I did in my renegotiation.

0:56:02 > 0:56:05Isis say they will use this migrant crisis

0:56:05 > 0:56:08to flood the continent with their jihadi fighters.

0:56:08 > 0:56:10I suggest we take them seriously.

0:56:11 > 0:56:16In recent weeks, the rhetoric on immigration has been stepped up.

0:56:16 > 0:56:18It is so vital that on June 23rd

0:56:18 > 0:56:21we do exactly what it says over there

0:56:21 > 0:56:23and we take back control of our immigration system.

0:56:27 > 0:56:29I was brought up in the slums of Notting Hill

0:56:29 > 0:56:31when Oswald Mosley was on the street corner

0:56:31 > 0:56:34saying, "Your jobs are being taken by Jamaicans".

0:56:34 > 0:56:37I lived in Slough for many years with a big Asian population

0:56:37 > 0:56:40where people said, "These people are taking your jobs".

0:56:40 > 0:56:45Now all of those communities have changed. They've all changed.

0:56:45 > 0:56:48And there are a very small number of people who want all of that back

0:56:48 > 0:56:52to some sepia-tinted world of the early '50s that doesn't exist.

0:56:54 > 0:56:57Border control isn't about saying no to migration.

0:56:57 > 0:57:00It's about saying no to just open-ended migration

0:57:00 > 0:57:02that suits people who pay low wages.

0:57:02 > 0:57:04My kind of idea about migration is to say,

0:57:04 > 0:57:07what does Britain actually need? Do we need skills?

0:57:07 > 0:57:09Do we need software engineers coming from India?

0:57:09 > 0:57:11Absolutely, if they're there and they're bright,

0:57:11 > 0:57:14we don't have enough here, we want to get more trained.

0:57:14 > 0:57:17Do we need more people to teach people software here? Yes.

0:57:17 > 0:57:18I want to balance this out.

0:57:18 > 0:57:20This is not an anti-migration.

0:57:20 > 0:57:22This is an anti-uncontrolled migration.

0:57:24 > 0:57:26We are not going to stop...

0:57:26 > 0:57:30people moving around the globe by leaving the EU.

0:57:30 > 0:57:33This suggestion that I've heard all my life from various people

0:57:33 > 0:57:37that, you know, you use immigration to frighten people...

0:57:37 > 0:57:41It's always been a very potent political weapon throughout my life.

0:57:41 > 0:57:43It's a real concern for voters.

0:57:43 > 0:57:46It's a concern for voters.

0:57:46 > 0:57:50It's also a potent political weapon for some politicians.

0:57:54 > 0:57:57For now, the politicians hold the floor.

0:57:57 > 0:58:00But soon it will be your turn to cast your vote.

0:58:04 > 0:58:06Immigration is just one issue

0:58:06 > 0:58:09in Britain's often complex relationship with Europe.

0:58:12 > 0:58:16But how you feel about it may decide whether you think

0:58:16 > 0:58:20Britain should stay in or leave the European Union.