0:00:06 > 0:00:09Scotland sits on the very edge of the continent.
0:00:11 > 0:00:15How European are we out here on the geographical margin?
0:00:17 > 0:00:20For the second time in as many years,
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Scotland faces a choice about the kind of country it wants to be.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27But this time, the United Kingdom will decide
0:00:27 > 0:00:31whether we stay in or leave the European Union -
0:00:31 > 0:00:35and Scotland will have just an 8% share of the decision.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40The possibility that Scotland will vote to stay inside the EU,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42while the UK as a whole votes to leave,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44is not remote. It's real.
0:00:44 > 0:00:45So what would it mean?
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Many on the Remain side -
0:00:47 > 0:00:49from Nicola Sturgeon to William Hague -
0:00:49 > 0:00:51have warned that it would push Scotland
0:00:51 > 0:00:53further down the road to independence -
0:00:53 > 0:00:54that if Britain left Europe,
0:00:54 > 0:00:57Scotland would eventually leave Britain.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59But is that true?
0:00:59 > 0:01:02What would a vote to leave do to the arguments
0:01:02 > 0:01:05for and against Scottish independence?
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Well, it changes them. It changes them dramatically.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Scotland is a small country with a global reach -
0:01:22 > 0:01:25and we're quite fond of saying so.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28In truth, we have forgotten much of our own story.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32For sure, we remember and celebrate the British Empire Scots
0:01:32 > 0:01:35who went to Australia, Canada, Africa, India -
0:01:35 > 0:01:39but there has also been a big Continental diaspora,
0:01:39 > 0:01:43a huge Scottish boot-print in the heart of Europe.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46The evidence is there, if you reach back for it.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49So, this is a map of the city of Gdansk,
0:01:49 > 0:01:52or Danzig, as it's called on this German map,
0:01:52 > 0:01:54and clearly there are two large suburbs,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57one in the west here, which is called "New Scotland",
0:01:57 > 0:01:59"Neu Schottland", in German,
0:01:59 > 0:02:04and this one is called the "Suburb of Scotland", or "Ecosse",
0:02:04 > 0:02:06and that's in the south of the city,
0:02:06 > 0:02:10very close to the densely populated city centre.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14But both, by the look of them on this map, substantial suburbs.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21English MPs sympathised with the poor Poles
0:02:21 > 0:02:25who were, they said, overrun with the worst sort of immigrants.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29This letter of 1615 begs King James VI to stem the flow
0:02:29 > 0:02:35of disreputable, disruptive and dissolute Scots to Poland.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37The Polish state saw it differently.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42In this document of 1655, the Polish king grants trading privileges
0:02:42 > 0:02:44to two Scots merchants
0:02:44 > 0:02:47called Daniel McLauchlan and George Drummond.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49Funny to think there was a time
0:02:49 > 0:02:52when ordinary Poles railed against Scottish immigration,
0:02:52 > 0:02:55when Scots went over there, took their jobs
0:02:55 > 0:02:57and undercut their tradesmen.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04This was a period where the sea united and the land divided,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06that the east coast ports of Scotland
0:03:06 > 0:03:09had closer relationships to Bergen in Norway,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12to Danzig in Poland-Lithuania -
0:03:12 > 0:03:15what is now referred to, of course, as Gdansk.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20Overwhelmingly, those settlements were made up of merchants.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23Petty, sometimes. Often petty.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26You know, just hucksters going about selling goods.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30Some of these Scots, even into the second, third generation,
0:03:30 > 0:03:33became high officials
0:03:33 > 0:03:38in some of these Polish-Lithuanian towns.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40It was today's dynamic in reverse -
0:03:40 > 0:03:44Poland offering tens of thousands of Scots a better life
0:03:44 > 0:03:46than their own country could.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50When we think of the country at that time,
0:03:50 > 0:03:54we think of it as disadvantaged, as poor,
0:03:54 > 0:03:59as losing out on the...the race for colonies.
0:03:59 > 0:04:01But then if you shift the focus
0:04:01 > 0:04:07and remember that there was indeed - not a formal Scottish Empire,
0:04:07 > 0:04:12but a very important Scottish commercial empire in Europe.
0:04:12 > 0:04:13Much more significant
0:04:13 > 0:04:18than any of the attempts to establish links with the Americas.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31The point is this - that before Union with England
0:04:31 > 0:04:34made Scotland part of a non-European global empire,
0:04:34 > 0:04:39Scotland formed natural links with its neighbours across the North Sea.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42The Baltic port city of Gdansk has for centuries been a place
0:04:42 > 0:04:47of European integration - a trading magnet that has drawn in communities
0:04:47 > 0:04:53of Russians, Germans, Jews, Dutch, Scandinavians, and above all, Scots.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55The Scots formed colonies here -
0:04:55 > 0:04:59remembered to this day in the names of those suburbs.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03We are in the very heart of a district
0:05:03 > 0:05:06referred to as Stare Szkoty in Polish,
0:05:06 > 0:05:10which literally means "Old Scotland".
0:05:10 > 0:05:12If you came as a Scot to Gdansk,
0:05:12 > 0:05:17you, of course, could settle in the city, if you have wealth enough.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21Those less affluent would settle here -
0:05:21 > 0:05:24so there were breweries, tanneries,
0:05:24 > 0:05:29shoemakers, bakers, all kinds of profession,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31and some of them, due to hard work
0:05:31 > 0:05:35and, well, the entrepreneurial spirit...
0:05:35 > 0:05:39would arrive at becoming wealthy people.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47After the 1707 Union with England,
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Scotland turned to face the Atlantic.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Before that, though, generations of Scots on the make landed here.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57Their first impressions - the architecture -
0:05:57 > 0:05:59would have chimed with the quays and wharfs
0:05:59 > 0:06:02of the cities and towns they'd left behind -
0:06:02 > 0:06:05recognisably part of the same world.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08But this place was vastly more opulent,
0:06:08 > 0:06:12offered vastly greater opportunity for advancement.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17Most Scots never went back. Slowly they merged into Polish society.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21This is a reminder that for most of our history,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24the sea hasn't been a barrier, but a point of connection.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27It hasn't separated people, but joined them together,
0:06:27 > 0:06:30so that communities that inhabit the shores of the North Sea
0:06:30 > 0:06:34and the Baltic are united by this into a single community,
0:06:34 > 0:06:36a trading bloc.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39The sea has been a trading route, a migration corridor.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41And it would have drawn populations from the sea ports
0:06:41 > 0:06:44of the east of Scotland right across the Baltic
0:06:44 > 0:06:48and down the Vistula Valley into the very heart of Poland,
0:06:48 > 0:06:49and the heart of Europe.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56After decades in the deep freeze of Communism,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Poland is re-emerging as an economic and commercial hub.
0:07:00 > 0:07:04It is reconnecting with its centuries-old trading hinterland.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07When they joined in 2004,
0:07:07 > 0:07:11Poles saw the EU as a way of returning to their natural home.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16Their economy has been one of the most successful in Europe -
0:07:16 > 0:07:18they haven't had a single year of recession.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23After we started membership of the European Union,
0:07:23 > 0:07:25we are growing.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29Every year our-our GDP is growing, our trade is growing.
0:07:29 > 0:07:34Do you think Poland has benefited from 12 years in the European Union?
0:07:34 > 0:07:37We would never be able to put in so much money to invest,
0:07:37 > 0:07:41without the European Union, in our infrastructure.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45You see the highways, freeways around-around the cities...
0:07:45 > 0:07:49During the last 12 years this development was huge,
0:07:49 > 0:07:53and without the European Union support it will never be possible.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55Never.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Britain is separated from its neighbours
0:07:57 > 0:08:00by more than a strip of water.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Historical experience separates it, too.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06Unlike Britain, almost all the other EU countries have,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09within living memory, suffered military defeat,
0:08:09 > 0:08:14and the humiliation of foreign occupation - Poland above all.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16Becoming a part of the European Union, for Poles,
0:08:16 > 0:08:22first of all meant - finally - security and stability.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25I mean, finally Poland was coming back to its right place,
0:08:25 > 0:08:31I mean to the community of Western Christian nations.
0:08:31 > 0:08:32And when you say security,
0:08:32 > 0:08:36you also mean security for a securely rooted democracy,
0:08:36 > 0:08:38democratic governance?
0:08:38 > 0:08:41In order to introduce European money to the system, Poland,
0:08:41 > 0:08:44like every country, had to introduce various procedures
0:08:44 > 0:08:47and enhance all these elements
0:08:47 > 0:08:52which used to be suspicious or weakened in terms of transparency -
0:08:52 > 0:08:56corruption, conduct of governance, or quality of governance.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01This is a country that was wiped off the map of Europe
0:09:01 > 0:09:04for 200 years by the competing imperialisms
0:09:04 > 0:09:08of its two great neighbours, the Germans and the Russians.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11In the Second World War it was defeated by both sides,
0:09:11 > 0:09:16occupied by both sides - first Germany and then the Soviet Union.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19When it got its liberation in 1989,
0:09:19 > 0:09:21it come to view the process of European integration
0:09:21 > 0:09:24not as a threat to Polish sovereignty,
0:09:24 > 0:09:26but as the best way to protect it.
0:09:26 > 0:09:31Not as a threat to Polish democracy, but as the best way to entrench it.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Because the key to both these things lay, as the Poles saw it,
0:09:35 > 0:09:38in something they hadn't achieved for hundreds of years -
0:09:38 > 0:09:42a long-term sustainable peace with their neighbours.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45That's what the European Union means in a place like this.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49It's not just about who you trade with. It's something much bigger.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55Britain is just not familiar with that experience.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58In the biting cold of an early morning at Peterhead,
0:09:58 > 0:10:02there aren't many who think the EU has redeemed Britain's democracy
0:10:02 > 0:10:05or made more secure its national sovereignty.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11Britain was, before Europe, an island of coal surrounded by fish.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14And we don't do much of either any more.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16HE SHOUTS PRICES
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Peterhead remains the biggest fish market in Europe.
0:10:19 > 0:10:2355,000 tonnes of white fish come through here every year,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25worth £80 million.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29It's a lot - but it's nothing like it used to be.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33Britain has to share its territorial waters with the rest of Europe.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36And Brussels - not London or Holyrood -
0:10:36 > 0:10:41decides how much fish the Scottish fleet can be allowed to catch.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44In 1975, you voted to stay in the European Community.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46Why did you do that?
0:10:46 > 0:10:50We were told that it was going to be for a free...
0:10:50 > 0:10:53free market, and trading with people.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55We just thought it was better.
0:10:55 > 0:10:56As the years went by,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59Brussels seemed to have more and more control,
0:10:59 > 0:11:03and every time they used to come back from quota negotiations,
0:11:03 > 0:11:07more and more restrictions were coming in.
0:11:07 > 0:11:11It just... It was like a noose that was tightening around our neck
0:11:11 > 0:11:12all the time.
0:11:12 > 0:11:13So that, in your view,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16is all down to Britain's European Union membership?
0:11:16 > 0:11:17Absolutely - no question.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19And what do you think of that?
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Well, you just... You need to look at the side of my boat.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27I think my views are quite clear.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30And are you confident that the Leave campaign can win this?
0:11:30 > 0:11:34It's going to be a hard fight, but I've waited 40 years for this...
0:11:35 > 0:11:39..and I'll give it the damn best chance I can, like.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44We're just across the North Sea, here, from Norway.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47We're a lot closer to Stavanger than we are to London.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50In the early 1970s, the Norwegians were negotiating
0:11:50 > 0:11:53to join the European Community along with Britain -
0:11:53 > 0:11:57they were meant to become full members on the same day as us.
0:11:57 > 0:11:58They pulled out at the last minute
0:11:58 > 0:12:02because of fears of what membership would do to their fishing industry.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05They opted instead to retain full national control
0:12:05 > 0:12:09of their vast territorial waters.
0:12:09 > 0:12:1340 years on, fisheries are still the second biggest part
0:12:13 > 0:12:17of the Norwegian economy, after oil and gas.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20A story very different to what happened to fisheries in Scotland.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25There's been a lot of pain over the last 20, 25 years.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28This port used to have in excess of 400 vessels
0:12:28 > 0:12:30sailing in and out of it.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34We've got about 70 now, but there are eight on order for next year
0:12:34 > 0:12:38and we hope that will, with the increase in quotas,
0:12:38 > 0:12:41and I think the greater husbandry of our seas,
0:12:41 > 0:12:45it all echoes for a good future.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51We are building a future here in Peterhead.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54If we get a grant that we're looking for from the EU
0:12:54 > 0:12:57and from the Scottish government - this will be knocked down
0:12:57 > 0:12:58to make way for a new fish market.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09But 40 years in the EU has changed the shape of Scotland's economy.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12Drive a few hours west of Peterhead
0:13:12 > 0:13:16and you find an emblematic Scottish success story - whisky.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23A third of Scotland's whisky exports go to Europe.
0:13:23 > 0:13:28EU clout opens up new markets in growing economies around the world.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31This is a cask that once contained Muscatel.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33And what does it do to the flavour?
0:13:33 > 0:13:35I'll show you.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43'This industry believes it owes that success in part to EU membership.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46'This is a different taste of the EU experience.'
0:13:51 > 0:13:55We've built our business models around EU membership,
0:13:55 > 0:13:57access to the Single Market,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01access to the trade agreements with other countries,
0:14:01 > 0:14:05access and support for our intellectual property...
0:14:05 > 0:14:06But what do you mean by this?
0:14:06 > 0:14:10Give me an example of the kind of regulatory or tariff barriers
0:14:10 > 0:14:11you face around the world,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14that might emerge in Europe if we weren't members.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17A good example, for example, is Vietnam.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20Big emerging market, bigger than lots of people think.
0:14:20 > 0:14:25The EU has just agreed a free trade agreement with Vietnam.
0:14:25 > 0:14:30The current tariff on spirits to Vietnam is 45%.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34That will go down to zero under this free trade agreement.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39# Let's stay in the Common Market
0:14:39 > 0:14:43# In Europe we can be great... #
0:14:43 > 0:14:46The last time Britain voted on membership, in 1975,
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Scotland was one of the most Eurosceptic parts of the UK -
0:14:50 > 0:14:52second only to Northern Ireland
0:14:52 > 0:14:55in its doubts about the benefits of Europe.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Now that's reversed - with polls showing Scotland
0:14:58 > 0:15:03second only to Northern Ireland in its support for EU membership.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08Why? Why have we become more enthusiastic Europeans,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11while most of the UK has become more sceptical?
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Brexit, you know, the campaign to leave the EU,
0:15:15 > 0:15:18is seen very much as a Conservative Party project.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20And in Scotland there are an awful lot of people
0:15:20 > 0:15:23who will say, "If the Tories want this, I don't".
0:15:23 > 0:15:25I think that's a wee bit shallow,
0:15:25 > 0:15:27but that brings me on to another point, actually,
0:15:27 > 0:15:31which is, I think, just as important for my campaign.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36Support for the European Union in Scotland is very widespread,
0:15:36 > 0:15:37it's not very deep.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41It's not like support for the UK or support for independence
0:15:41 > 0:15:45which is felt viscerally by people.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48But the SNP have changed, too.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50They were once for leaving the EU,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53but a generation ago, they adopted
0:15:53 > 0:15:57independence in Europe as their defining purpose.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00I would prefer a European passport, in the short term,
0:16:00 > 0:16:02to the UK one I have.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05I would prefer not to have the flag of the Union Jack,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08which is now a symbol of hooliganism internationally.
0:16:08 > 0:16:09I'd rather have a European flag.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13The SNP now argued that independence
0:16:13 > 0:16:17did not mean separating or going it alone -
0:16:17 > 0:16:20it would still be part of something big and strong.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23And talking of the EU,
0:16:23 > 0:16:28no matter how England votes, we are staying in.
0:16:31 > 0:16:32Opinion polls suggest
0:16:32 > 0:16:35Scottish voters overwhelmingly support staying in.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39So, if Scotland is, as the SNP government puts it,
0:16:39 > 0:16:43dragged out of the EU against the democratic wish of the people,
0:16:43 > 0:16:46what will happen? What SHOULD happen?
0:16:46 > 0:16:49At this stage, I'm not particularly keen
0:16:49 > 0:16:52to get too far into the realms of speculation about that,
0:16:52 > 0:16:57for the simple reason that I hope that scenario doesn't arise.
0:16:57 > 0:16:58I want Scotland to be independent,
0:16:58 > 0:17:02but I wouldn't choose to have another referendum
0:17:02 > 0:17:05on the basis that the rest of the UK had chosen to do something
0:17:05 > 0:17:08that I think would be damaging for the rest of the UK.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10So I'm going to campaign and argue
0:17:10 > 0:17:12for not just Scotland to vote to stay in,
0:17:12 > 0:17:15but the rest of the UK to do so as well.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19Do you accept there will be a question of democratic legitimacy
0:17:19 > 0:17:22if Scotland votes to stay in the European Union
0:17:22 > 0:17:25but Britain as a whole votes to leave?
0:17:25 > 0:17:28There's no question of democratic legitimacy at all.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30I mean, first of all...
0:17:30 > 0:17:34I think it's really important that Scots approach June 23rd
0:17:34 > 0:17:36with ONE question in their mind,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38which is, "Should we continue to be members of the EU?"
0:17:38 > 0:17:40That's the only question that's being asked.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42It's not about Scottish independence,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45it would be unfair, I think, to the Scottish people
0:17:45 > 0:17:49and the British people, if we put our cross in the box
0:17:49 > 0:17:52with any other motivation than answering the question.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55But could the SNP build a new case for independence
0:17:55 > 0:17:58on the back of a Brexit vote?
0:17:58 > 0:18:01One of the big issues in the Scottish independence referendum
0:18:01 > 0:18:03was the issue of the currency.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05That was difficult enough then.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07The idea of trying to sell
0:18:07 > 0:18:09the message of Scottish independence
0:18:09 > 0:18:11on the currency issue,
0:18:11 > 0:18:12in the context of Brexit,
0:18:12 > 0:18:14would be very, very difficult.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17Before I say what I'm about to say, this is not me saying
0:18:17 > 0:18:22that our position on currency was wrong, because I don't think it was,
0:18:22 > 0:18:26but, clearly, that was one of a number of areas
0:18:26 > 0:18:28where we clearly didn't persuade enough people
0:18:28 > 0:18:31that what we were saying was as credible as it needed to be.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34So, you know, when you don't win a campaign -
0:18:34 > 0:18:36whatever that campaign might be -
0:18:36 > 0:18:38it would be incredibly arrogant to assume
0:18:38 > 0:18:40that there was nothing more you had to do
0:18:40 > 0:18:42in order to persuade people in the future.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54There's not much traffic on the bridge at Coldstream these days,
0:18:54 > 0:18:56but it does carry a heavy symbolic load.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59It was built in the 18th century,
0:18:59 > 0:19:01when building bridges between England and Scotland
0:19:01 > 0:19:05was designed to cement two kingdoms into one.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09In 2014, pro-independence campaigners
0:19:09 > 0:19:12said a border here wouldn't matter
0:19:12 > 0:19:15because everything moves freely within the EU anyway,
0:19:15 > 0:19:17but Brexit would change that.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21And remember, 64% of Scotland's exports
0:19:21 > 0:19:23go to the rest of the UK.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28So, what would this border look like
0:19:28 > 0:19:31should this bank of the Tweed stay inside the European Union,
0:19:31 > 0:19:33while that bank left?
0:19:33 > 0:19:35Would there be a customs post here,
0:19:35 > 0:19:37would there be passport controls,
0:19:37 > 0:19:41would there be immigration checks? Well, maybe that would be necessary.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44There are some countries outside the EU that have got around this.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48You can travel, for example, between Sweden and Norway without checks.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51You can travel between France and Switzerland without checks.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53Would a similar agreement be possible here?
0:19:53 > 0:19:55Well, the answer is, nobody knows,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58because nobody, as far as we know, has made a plan for that.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03The ideal of a Europe without borders has, in any case,
0:20:03 > 0:20:05been strained to breaking point.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09National governments are reimposing border controls
0:20:09 > 0:20:11to impede free movement.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14A sensible open-immigration policy
0:20:14 > 0:20:17that says we welcome people, but we've got to control...
0:20:17 > 0:20:20Ukip has had little electoral success in Scotland,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23but does that mean immigration is not an issue here?
0:20:23 > 0:20:27If you are wealthy enough and cosmopolitan enough,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30then it makes it easier to get a cleaner for a low wage.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33But for a lot of working-class communities
0:20:33 > 0:20:36and the working-class communities I represented as an MP,
0:20:36 > 0:20:41I mean, it has real, major impact on housing,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44on schools and on jobs.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46Most of those people work and pay taxes, though.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50Isn't the immigration community from the European Union
0:20:50 > 0:20:52a net contributor to the public purse?
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Nobody denies that immigration's a good thing.
0:20:55 > 0:20:56I've always believed, you know,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59anyone in the progressive left of politics
0:20:59 > 0:21:01believes that immigration is a good thing.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04But unlimited immigration is not a good thing,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06because it has to be managed.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09Do you accept that, although it doesn't figure highly
0:21:09 > 0:21:14on things that Scottish people say they are concerned about,
0:21:14 > 0:21:16immigration is a problem in Scotland,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19especially if you are at the lower end of the income bracket?
0:21:19 > 0:21:23I absolutely recognise the concerns people have about immigration.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26I represent a constituency in the south side of Glasgow
0:21:26 > 0:21:31that has a particular concentration of immigration from Eastern Europe.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34Notwithstanding some of these particular concerns people have,
0:21:34 > 0:21:36the fact is - and this is a fact
0:21:36 > 0:21:39that doesn't get spoken about nearly enough -
0:21:39 > 0:21:42is that, overall, immigration from other European Union countries
0:21:42 > 0:21:45into Scotland and the UK is a net positive benefit,
0:21:45 > 0:21:48it actually contributes more to our economy
0:21:48 > 0:21:50than people coming here take out,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53if that's not too pejorative a way of putting it,
0:21:53 > 0:21:55in terms of public services.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57And that's before we talk about
0:21:57 > 0:22:00the hugely positive social and cultural benefits
0:22:00 > 0:22:03of having people come from other parts of the world to Scotland,
0:22:03 > 0:22:05just as people from Scotland, for generations,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08have gone to every corner of the world.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14There is a strong argument that Scotland's problem
0:22:14 > 0:22:16has not been immigration at all, but emigration.
0:22:16 > 0:22:21In the 20th century, the population of England and Wales grew by 60%.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23In Scotland, it grew by just 10%.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25That doesn't suggest a country
0:22:25 > 0:22:28that has been an irresistible magnet for migrants.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30It suggests a country that has struggled
0:22:30 > 0:22:32to hold on to its own young people,
0:22:32 > 0:22:35who are drawn by better opportunities elsewhere.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40There's another part of Scotland's European story
0:22:40 > 0:22:43that we've largely forgotten. In the 1940s,
0:22:43 > 0:22:47there were 40,000 Polish soldiers stationed in Scotland.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50They fought in the liberation of Europe.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Many of them settled here afterwards.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55There's a pleasing symmetry to this,
0:22:55 > 0:22:58for some of them were descended from Scots
0:22:58 > 0:23:01who went to Poland in the 17th and 18th centuries.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05Underneath, we've got the emblem of Poland...
0:23:05 > 0:23:09Why were there so many Polish people here after the war?
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Well, many of them, like my own parents
0:23:12 > 0:23:16lived in eastern Poland and, in 1940,
0:23:16 > 0:23:18they were exiled up to Siberia.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20When Stalin joined the Allies,
0:23:20 > 0:23:24they then released the people who were in Siberia,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27they escaped through Romania and so on,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30into France and then from France into Britain.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33What was it like growing up here as a young Polish girl in Scotland,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35to Polish parents who didn't even speak the language?
0:23:35 > 0:23:38We were expected to be Polish at home.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41The minute we crossed the threshold, we were expected to blend in,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44to be Scottish, to take part in everything that went on.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46Poland came into the EU in 2004
0:23:46 > 0:23:49and tens of thousands of Polish people
0:23:49 > 0:23:50came to work in Scotland.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54That must have had a big impact on the Polish community here, did it?
0:23:54 > 0:23:56The church is full of people now,
0:23:56 > 0:23:59because, at one time, you had about...
0:23:59 > 0:24:03maybe a dozen grey heads and that was it, but it's now full.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05One other thing that's really been a boon for us
0:24:05 > 0:24:08is we have all these Polish delis now,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11which means I can get my kielbasa and all sorts of things,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14which was lacking in the past few years.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17- That's sausage?- Sausage, yes.
0:24:21 > 0:24:26Tens of thousands more Poles have come to Scotland in the last decade.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29Their language is now the second most common in the country.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Jacek Korzeniowski came to Glasgow with his family as a teenager.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36You can hear a dual identity,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39a fusion of Polish and Scottish nationalities,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41even in the way he speaks.
0:24:41 > 0:24:46The idea came through my parents speaking to co-workers
0:24:46 > 0:24:49in their previous work,
0:24:49 > 0:24:53them asking, "Since there is so many Polish people,
0:24:53 > 0:24:57"why cannot you get Polish food here? I would like to try it."
0:24:57 > 0:24:59Then idea turn into business.
0:24:59 > 0:25:01And how do the Polish people integrate here,
0:25:01 > 0:25:03do they mix well with the local communities?
0:25:03 > 0:25:07I've never felt as being alien here.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09I've always felt support.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12I've always felt being welcome.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16How important is the European Union in all this?
0:25:16 > 0:25:21Poland got partitioned after the Second World War.
0:25:21 > 0:25:26Unwillingly, we have become part of the Eastern European world.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29And now we-we're back in the European Union,
0:25:29 > 0:25:32we're in the place where we prefer to be.
0:25:32 > 0:25:38If I'm going to take a bit of cooked ham, a little taste of Poland, home,
0:25:38 > 0:25:44- what are you going to recommend for me?- Maybe that ham on the far left.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46But Poland's relationship with the EU is shaped
0:25:46 > 0:25:48by a radically different historical experience.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51It is just not the same for the UK.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53Many Leave campaigners acknowledge
0:25:53 > 0:25:56the positive role immigration has played here.
0:25:56 > 0:26:00For them, leaving the EU is not ending the relationship with Europe,
0:26:00 > 0:26:03not ending co-operation with our European neighbours,
0:26:03 > 0:26:08simply taking back more control over how we co-operate.
0:26:08 > 0:26:09That's very nice, you're right.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12It all comes down to trying it, tasting it.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16People change their opinion.
0:26:16 > 0:26:17If we come out of the EU, then all the powers
0:26:17 > 0:26:20that the European Commission and the European Parliament
0:26:20 > 0:26:22have over Britain have to go somewhere,
0:26:22 > 0:26:25they can't just dissolve into the ether.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27Some of them, undoubtedly, will come to Westminster,
0:26:27 > 0:26:30but here in Scotland, when it comes, for example,
0:26:30 > 0:26:32to fisheries and agriculture,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35so we would no longer be members of the Common Agricultural Policy
0:26:35 > 0:26:38or the Common Fisheries Policy,
0:26:38 > 0:26:42those would be powers that would be handed to ministers at Holyrood.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45The defining purpose of your political life
0:26:45 > 0:26:47is to repatriate political power,
0:26:47 > 0:26:51repatriate from Westminster back to Scotland.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54Why would you not want to repatriate power from Brussels as well?
0:26:54 > 0:26:56I want Scotland to be independent
0:26:56 > 0:26:59so that the choices about when and in what circumstances
0:26:59 > 0:27:02we pool our sovereignty are our choices to make.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04But I want an independent Scotland
0:27:04 > 0:27:07to be an outward-looking, internationalist country,
0:27:07 > 0:27:11playing its part in the world, joining with other countries
0:27:11 > 0:27:13to deal with the big challenges the world faces,
0:27:13 > 0:27:16and in the European Union, imperfect though it is,
0:27:16 > 0:27:20the frustrations it will bring from time to time, taken for granted,
0:27:20 > 0:27:21it's better to be in there.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33The North Sea has connected Scotland
0:27:33 > 0:27:36to its neighbours on the other shore for centuries.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40From time to time it has also defended Scotland from them -
0:27:40 > 0:27:43there are defensive emplacements up and down this coast.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46This month it is time, again,
0:27:46 > 0:27:49to decide what kind of relationship to seek.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53And the result could also change further
0:27:53 > 0:27:58Scotland's relationship with its single most important neighbour,
0:27:58 > 0:28:00the one it is connected to
0:28:00 > 0:28:04not by the sea, but by the land and by history.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09Would a vote to leave the European Union
0:28:09 > 0:28:11propel Scotland further down the road to independence?
0:28:11 > 0:28:14Well, it certainly changes the independence proposition
0:28:14 > 0:28:17in ways we haven't even begun to consider yet.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20And it would confront Scotland with a new national question -
0:28:20 > 0:28:23which union do you want to be part of,
0:28:23 > 0:28:25the British one or the European one?
0:28:25 > 0:28:28And that's an argument we haven't even started to have yet.