0:00:05 > 0:00:09The early hours of the 24th of June, 2016.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Britain is still asleep, most of it.
0:00:14 > 0:00:21But in corners of Westminster, a handful of parties go blearily on.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Some of them livelier than others.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26After 43 years of membership,
0:00:26 > 0:00:31the country has been voting about whether to leave the European Union.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36And while the TV cameras swarm around Westminster,
0:00:36 > 0:00:40this is a decision which will affect the whole of the UK,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42in particular Scotland.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46It's seven o'clock. It's Friday morning, the 24th of June.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50This is Good Morning Scotland with Gary Robertson at Westminster and
0:00:50 > 0:00:51Hayley Miller in the studio.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54Britain votes to leave the EU.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58But Scotland backs remain, raising the prospect of Indyref2.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03While most of England and Wales voted to leave,
0:01:03 > 0:01:08every single local authority in Scotland voted to remain.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12This could trigger a second independence referendum.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15But Nicola Sturgeon and the ruling Scottish National Party
0:01:15 > 0:01:17must be careful.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22If they lose again, her cause could be buried for ever.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26The Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum
0:01:26 > 0:01:29if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances
0:01:29 > 0:01:32that prevailed in 2014,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41The anger unleashed in Scotland by the EU referendum is only part of a
0:01:41 > 0:01:47much longer story of two British political cultures drifting apart.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51Scotland and Westminster have been turning their backs on each other
0:01:51 > 0:01:53for decades.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55So, what has happened?
0:01:55 > 0:01:58I am a Scot. I know I don't sound it.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01That's because I've spent most of my life working and living
0:02:01 > 0:02:04in the clammy grip of central London.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07But I'm a Scot by birth, education, upbringing
0:02:07 > 0:02:10and, for what it's worth, by sentiment.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14And the Scotland that I was born into just felt very different.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16It was rather male, it felt slightly dark,
0:02:16 > 0:02:21it was fiercely pro-British Unionist and it was mildly conservative,
0:02:21 > 0:02:22in every possible cultural way.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26A million miles away from today's Scotland, which is leftish,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30where women seem to be running almost everything and which is,
0:02:30 > 0:02:32of course, now dominated by the Scottish National Party.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35So the question is very straightforward
0:02:35 > 0:02:37and simple to pose, at least.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Why? What has happened here?
0:02:40 > 0:02:44In these two films, I'm going back to Scotland
0:02:44 > 0:02:47to tell the story of a quiet political revolution,
0:02:47 > 0:02:52which still isn't much understood south of the border.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55I'm going to speak to some of the biggest players
0:02:55 > 0:02:58about Scotland's past, present and future.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00I believe Scotland should be an independent country.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04That's what kept me going throughout all of these years when the SNP
0:03:04 > 0:03:07didn't have a prayer's chance at most elections.
0:03:07 > 0:03:12There's no doubt that Brexit means many things for jobs, the economy,
0:03:12 > 0:03:17London's prosperity and for national morale.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20But will it also lead to Scotland seizing independence?
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Scotland's a country of many faces,
0:03:41 > 0:03:46from the hot, fast-talking bustle of Glasgow Central
0:03:46 > 0:03:49to the scraped grandeur of the Highlands.
0:03:51 > 0:03:58Empty and crammed, rich and poor, there are many different Scotlands.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00And Scotland's also gone through
0:04:00 > 0:04:04an extraordinary wave of political change.
0:04:04 > 0:04:0510-20 years ago,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08the majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster were Labour.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14And many of Tony Blair's first cabinet were Scots,
0:04:14 > 0:04:17which also helped Labour to dominate Scotland.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Today, many of the most important Scottish politicians
0:04:20 > 0:04:24are at Holyrood in Edinburgh and, in the last election,
0:04:24 > 0:04:29the SNP won all but three of the Scottish seats at Westminster.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31But the changes in Scotland have, in truth,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33been happening for much longer.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36And to understand where we're going,
0:04:36 > 0:04:39first we need to understand where we've been.
0:04:43 > 0:04:49I was born in Glasgow, but I was brought up in Dundee.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52And it's really the east coast of Scotland that I feel closest to.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Perthshire, the River Tay, Edinburgh.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00And round here, when I was small,
0:05:00 > 0:05:03there was one truly dominant political party.
0:05:05 > 0:05:11Now, I am, despite my youthful good looks, a child of the 1950s,
0:05:11 > 0:05:14just, born in 1959.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17Four years before that, in 1955,
0:05:17 > 0:05:20the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party, the Tories,
0:05:20 > 0:05:24had won 50% of the popular Scottish vote,
0:05:24 > 0:05:27an achievement that would stand for half a century to come.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Moderate, one nation, mainstream,
0:05:30 > 0:05:34the Tories then could have called themselves the party of Scotland.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36And the SNP, back in the day?
0:05:36 > 0:05:42Well, they managed 0.5%, exactly the same as the British Communist Party.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Was any constituency ever more flattered
0:05:50 > 0:05:52than Kinross and West Perthshire?
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Perthshire was largely rural and solidly Conservative.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58The constituency next to my parents
0:05:58 > 0:06:01was the safest Tory seat in Scotland.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05The MP, when I was a boy there, was Sir Alec Douglas-Home,
0:06:05 > 0:06:09the aristocrat schooled at Eton, a friend of the Queen,
0:06:09 > 0:06:11plucked from the House of Lords
0:06:11 > 0:06:14so that he could become the new Prime Minister.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16Those were the days.
0:06:17 > 0:06:18When I was growing up,
0:06:18 > 0:06:21Scottish independence wasn't a live political issue.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25It was history, an old song dying out.
0:06:25 > 0:06:31Scotland had been mostly independent until 1707 when, nearly bankrupt,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35we unified with England under a single parliament at Westminster.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Before that union, which was much disliked in Scotland at the time,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43this hall was where the original Scottish Parliament met.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46The building now houses Scotland's Supreme Courts,
0:06:46 > 0:06:52where advocates glide up and down, trying to avoid being overheard.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54These rooms drip with history.
0:06:54 > 0:06:59Not a bad place to meet Scotland's leading historian, Sir Tom Devine.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04My own feeling is, as a historian, that the 1950s were,
0:07:04 > 0:07:08in a sense, closer to the 1850s than the 1950s is today.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12The Conservative Party was politically dominant,
0:07:12 > 0:07:16the Church of Scotland reached its highest level of membership
0:07:16 > 0:07:18in the late 1950s.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21It's a sense of nostalgia, almost,
0:07:21 > 0:07:24because that Scotland has vanished almost entirely.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30'Lord Home accepted Her Majesty's invitation.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34'He was now on his way to Number 10 as Prime Minister.'
0:07:34 > 0:07:39So how did the Conservatives fall from such a position of dominance?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42Michael Forsyth was the Scottish Secretary of State
0:07:42 > 0:07:44in John Major's Tory government.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Could I start by asking how Scotland felt politically
0:07:47 > 0:07:51when you were growing up, what kind of country you felt it was?
0:07:51 > 0:07:56It was strongly Unionist, it was conservative with a small "c".
0:07:56 > 0:07:57I went to school in Arbroath.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01There was a strong fishing community.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05There were lots of small businesses. It was very entrepreneurial.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08And there was none of this nationalism
0:08:08 > 0:08:11which very much dominates my hometown today.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13Why do you think it was where the Scotland,
0:08:13 > 0:08:17where most of the population voted for the Conservatives,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20became the Scotland where there are almost no Conservative MPs
0:08:20 > 0:08:21and only a few MSPs?
0:08:21 > 0:08:24Glasgow, when I was born in Scotland,
0:08:24 > 0:08:25was the second city of the Empire.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27I mean, it had booming factories
0:08:27 > 0:08:30producing locomotives for all over the world.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32It had a shipbuilding industry.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33It had steel and coal.
0:08:33 > 0:08:38And all these industries, which had a great past, but sadly no future.
0:08:38 > 0:08:43And in large measure, the Tories got the blame for that.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45And, of course, you also became...
0:08:45 > 0:08:49Scotland became a country where more and more people were either directly
0:08:49 > 0:08:54or indirectly dependent for their incomes on public expenditure.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59'These are the steel spawning grounds on the banks of the Clyde.'
0:09:01 > 0:09:06The story of deindustrialisation is absolutely key if you want to
0:09:06 > 0:09:10understand what's driven the great changes in Scotland.
0:09:10 > 0:09:15Once upon a time, we Scots mined, engineered and manufactured much of
0:09:15 > 0:09:18what made and drove the modern world.
0:09:18 > 0:09:23A century ago, a fifth of all ships in the world were built in Glasgow
0:09:23 > 0:09:25and towns like Clydebank.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29It was a northern European Shanghai.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32But deindustrialisation ripped out its innards.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38And the party this had the biggest effect on was Scottish Labour.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48When people speak about Labour's industrial heartlands,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51they mean places like Govan and the Clyde in Glasgow.
0:09:52 > 0:09:57Today, these areas may have gone all solidly SNP,
0:09:57 > 0:10:01but the men who worked here in the glory days mostly believed
0:10:01 > 0:10:03in a United Kingdom.
0:10:04 > 0:10:09The days of tens of thousands of men coming into these yards by the call
0:10:09 > 0:10:13of a whistle with a sky thick with smoke and the noise of cranes and
0:10:13 > 0:10:16chains, that has long gone.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18But the politics followed the economics.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22Those men were organised in these disciplined trade unions,
0:10:22 > 0:10:24which gave them power at the heart of the Labour Party
0:10:24 > 0:10:26and therefore at Westminster.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29And they were immensely proud of the ships they sent down the Clyde,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32many of them Royal Naval ships.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35They were British Unionists and they were trade unionists,
0:10:35 > 0:10:36Unionists in both senses.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Labour unionism left a big mark on Scotland,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46so big that old Labour held on for decades on the hope,
0:10:46 > 0:10:51dashed again and again, of regaining power at Westminster.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56I've travelled across the country many times and I'm always struck by
0:10:56 > 0:11:00how much Scotland was shaped by this period and its politics.
0:11:02 > 0:11:03In many ways,
0:11:03 > 0:11:08the modern Highlands is the creation of post-war Labour unionism.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12Vast acreages taken over by the Forestry Commission,
0:11:12 > 0:11:14huge hydroelectric dams,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17the Highlands and Islands Development Board,
0:11:17 > 0:11:21subsidies for nationalised trains and council houses
0:11:21 > 0:11:23in the most remote places.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25All of those came from Labour.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30These days, the Labour Party seems
0:11:30 > 0:11:33a remarkably southern and urban institution,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37but the history of Scottish Labour was very, very different.
0:11:40 > 0:11:41The major stamp
0:11:41 > 0:11:44and probably will never be forgotten,
0:11:44 > 0:11:46in terms of the heritage of Scottish Labour
0:11:46 > 0:11:48and its historical role in Scotland.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52It was the development of what we now call the welfare state,
0:11:52 > 0:11:55everything from health, through education, pensions,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58unemployment benefit and the rest.
0:11:58 > 0:11:59Producing pamphlets...
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Helen Liddell was the party's General Secretary for
0:12:01 > 0:12:06much of the 1970s and '80s and the first woman to hold that position.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09She grew up in a family and neighbourhood
0:12:09 > 0:12:11that only ever voted Labour.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14I was brought up in Coatbridge,
0:12:14 > 0:12:15between Glasgow and Edinburgh,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18from an area where people weighed Labour votes.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21And if you weren't Labour,
0:12:21 > 0:12:24well, you really needed serious medical help.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26In the council house I was brought up in,
0:12:26 > 0:12:28people really worried if the man next door
0:12:28 > 0:12:30was going to be able to keep his job.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32They worked in the steel plants.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35I got the opportunity to go to university
0:12:35 > 0:12:37because of a Labour government.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39And, you know, the morning I went to university,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41the women in the scheme in Old Monkland,
0:12:41 > 0:12:43that I was born and brought up in,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47they were at the doors because this was a girl from Coatbridge
0:12:47 > 0:12:50going to the uni! That was completely unheard of.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53And all of that was put down to a Labour government that was in touch
0:12:53 > 0:12:56with the people. To what extent do you think deindustrialisation,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59the end of heavy industry on the Clyde and so forth,
0:12:59 > 0:13:01had a bad effect on the Labour Party?
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Deindustrialisation fragmented societies.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07People had to move away.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Most people would live in a street round the corner from the rest of
0:13:10 > 0:13:13their family and they would be active in trade unions,
0:13:13 > 0:13:14they'd be active in the church.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17There was a greater coherence within society.
0:13:17 > 0:13:18And that lack of coherence
0:13:18 > 0:13:22started to affect the political parties, as well.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26People weren't interested in coming out to political meetings.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30But the dismantling of Scotland's heavy industries didn't just
0:13:30 > 0:13:33fragment Labour's core vote.
0:13:33 > 0:13:38It opened people's eyes to other political possibilities.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42Once the heavy industry goes, everything changes.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47A post-industrial country which is, essentially, what Scotland now is,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50produces a post-industrial politics.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52What does that mean?
0:13:52 > 0:13:56It means an end to the simple binary politics of us versus them,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00because I was born in this street, going to this school,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03joining this trade union and doing this job,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06therefore I vote for that party. That all goes.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10The glue vanishes and all sorts of possibilities emerge.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13You can live in the same street, go to the same school,
0:14:13 > 0:14:16do the same kind of job, but think about doing something very radical
0:14:16 > 0:14:19and different like, for instance, voting for the SNP.
0:14:23 > 0:14:24In the late 1960s,
0:14:24 > 0:14:30the SNP was beginning to breathe unsettlingly down Labour's neck.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34But these people were still seen as a bit suspect.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36When I was a boy,
0:14:36 > 0:14:40nationalism had seemed the preserve of poetic idealists
0:14:40 > 0:14:45and nostalgic social Conservatives, kitted out in dusty tartan.
0:14:45 > 0:14:51The first SNP leader to really come to my attention was Billy Wolfe.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55He'd been a poet and run a business making forestry equipment.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59It was Wolfe's idea to fuse the Saint Andrew's cross of Scotland
0:14:59 > 0:15:03with a thistle, creating the SNP's famous logo.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06Despite his influence, however, Billy Wolfe never won a
0:15:06 > 0:15:09parliamentary seat for the Nationalists.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14'The glamour in the campaign undoubtedly comes from the
0:15:14 > 0:15:16'Nationalist candidate...'
0:15:16 > 0:15:21The tradition of heroic defeats began to end in November 1967
0:15:21 > 0:15:25when Winnie Ewing won the solidly Labour seat of Hamilton,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29sounding uncannily like a Caledonian Margaret Thatcher.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33Well, I've been at 15 public meetings round the constituency
0:15:33 > 0:15:36and I don't find any difficulty fitting in.
0:15:36 > 0:15:41Sometimes, indeed, we've had an almost total response from the hall
0:15:41 > 0:15:43that they're going to vote for the SNP this time.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46As to being a woman, I think it's an advantage.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48REPORTER: But do you think Mrs Ewing will deal as well for you?
0:15:48 > 0:15:50Certainly. Certainly.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53What do you think she will achieve for you?
0:15:53 > 0:15:54For me? Yes, for you, as well.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56She'll achieve a lot for me
0:15:56 > 0:15:58and she'll achieve even more for Scotland.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02You've got to remember almost the banality of Scottish politics
0:16:02 > 0:16:05in the '50s and early '60s.
0:16:05 > 0:16:06The tussle which had been going on for ages
0:16:06 > 0:16:08between Conservative and Labour.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11And in this technicolour event, this young woman,
0:16:11 > 0:16:14charismatic, appealing, this young lawyer,
0:16:14 > 0:16:16I mean the press went crazy over it.
0:16:16 > 0:16:21Winnie Ewing had a transformative effect on Scottish politics.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23Not only for the independence movement,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26but also encouraging a more prominent role for women.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32It's particularly wonderful to look out and see...
0:16:32 > 0:16:34No offence, guys!
0:16:34 > 0:16:37..so many WOMEN here today.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41Scottish politics today is heavily feminised.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43London is playing catch up.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47It was quite a big thing in my life, Winnie Ewing winning in Hamilton.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51One, she was an attractive woman.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53And it was unusual to see a woman in that position.
0:16:53 > 0:16:58For the SNP to win Hamilton in the '60s was a massive difference.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02This was a big working class area that was voting for the SNP,
0:17:02 > 0:17:04so there was traction there
0:17:04 > 0:17:08and maybe lessons that the Labour Party should have learned.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11'Wembley, Bobby Moore and John Greig were the captains.
0:17:11 > 0:17:12'England versus Scotland.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15'Neither Bobby, his team, nor England supporters
0:17:15 > 0:17:19'believed Scotland had a chance. How wrong they were destined to be.'
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Scottishness was a fervent and powerful feeling back then,
0:17:22 > 0:17:27but it was mostly expressed through football, rugby and music.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30It was more cultural than political.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33'Scotland have beaten the World Cup winners hands down.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35'The game will go down in football history as one of the greatest
0:17:35 > 0:17:37'that Scotland ever played.'
0:17:43 > 0:17:49Even during the heyday of unionism, many Scots felt something close to
0:17:49 > 0:17:52despair about the lack of power in Scotland.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56The poet, Sydney Goodsir Smith, writing in the 1960s,
0:17:56 > 0:17:59portrayed Edinburgh as a spiritless place,
0:17:59 > 0:18:02cowed like a beggar in the rain.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04Only a capital in name, not in spirit.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06He said this about it.
0:18:06 > 0:18:12"This empty capital, snorts like a great beast, caged in its sleep.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15"Dreaming of freedom but with nae belief.
0:18:15 > 0:18:20"Indulging an auld ritual whase meaning has been forgot owre lang,
0:18:20 > 0:18:25"a mere habit of words, when the drink's in and signifying naething."
0:18:28 > 0:18:31That was a picture of a very different Edinburgh.
0:18:31 > 0:18:35A much darker, sadder city bereft of a parliament.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42But other external events
0:18:42 > 0:18:46would shift the case for Scottish independence up a gear.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48And the biggest of these was, of course,
0:18:48 > 0:18:50the discovery of North Sea oil.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58A number of fields had been cracked in the 1970s and, by 1975,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01oil was flowing ashore at Aberdeen.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05One of the old arguments of unionism,
0:19:05 > 0:19:09which interestingly enough has not really been used again since,
0:19:09 > 0:19:11was that Scotland was too poor,
0:19:11 > 0:19:15too disadvantaged to stand up for itself as an autonomous state.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20So that was kicked into touch by the discovery of oil and some of the
0:19:20 > 0:19:24secret documents of the time referred to the potential that,
0:19:24 > 0:19:28if Scotland was able to absorb most of the income from North Sea oil,
0:19:28 > 0:19:31it would become "the Kuwait of the north"
0:19:31 > 0:19:35and would have one of the highest standards of living in Europe.
0:19:35 > 0:19:41It was the first serious blow against the old view
0:19:41 > 0:19:45that a separate or independent Scotland could not sustain itself.
0:19:46 > 0:19:52The discovery of oil and the notion that Westminster might be stealing
0:19:52 > 0:19:54it was electoral gold.
0:19:54 > 0:19:59The SNP wasted no time in plastering the thought all over their posters.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02I was very offended by it.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05Because people had to make a moral and intellectual judgment.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09The idea that, when there was this bonanza, that we should turn our
0:20:09 > 0:20:13backs on working people in Liverpool and Newcastle and Birmingham,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16people in communities with the same needs and the same general history.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21But oil initially gave a huge boost to the SNP.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29Alex Salmond himself once even worked as an oil economist and a
0:20:29 > 0:20:32decade later, this would play a big role in his first campaign
0:20:32 > 0:20:34to become an MP.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37At the present moment, Scotland gets nothing from the oil revenue.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39Unless we take control over the resource,
0:20:39 > 0:20:41then Scotland is in severe danger of ending up
0:20:41 > 0:20:44the only country in history to discover oil and get poorer.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51How important to the revival of the SNP was the oil question?
0:20:51 > 0:20:56It was very important, but only importance because what it did to
0:20:56 > 0:20:58open up people's eyes to the idea
0:20:58 > 0:21:03that Scotland could be economically viable, could sustain itself.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07Countries which haven't governed themselves, and this is true
0:21:07 > 0:21:13virtually universally, always get told that their their-ness
0:21:13 > 0:21:18as poor, wee subsidised places and only by the magnificence and
0:21:18 > 0:21:22generosity of the central government are they able to sustain themselves.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26So oil put a chink in that Westminster armour.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29I don't want to wear my bleeding heart on my sleeve,
0:21:29 > 0:21:30I just want you to trust me
0:21:30 > 0:21:33and I will be as good an MP as I possibly can be. Thank you.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39Following Winnie Ewing, the SNP now found a new female champion
0:21:39 > 0:21:42to pierce that Westminster armour.
0:21:43 > 0:21:48The charismatic blonde bombshell, Margo MacDonald, who, in 1973
0:21:48 > 0:21:53stormed the Labour stronghold of Glasgow Govan.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56But Margo was very different to Winnie Ewing.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00She was much more left-wing and socialist.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02Back then in the 1970s,
0:22:02 > 0:22:07the SNP could wear almost any ideological clothes they chose.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12Left, right or centre, so long as they advocated nationalism.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15There were two elections held the following year
0:22:15 > 0:22:17and although Margo lost in Govan,
0:22:17 > 0:22:23in October 1974, the SNP ended up with 11 MPs at Westminster.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28But it wasn't just the 11 MPs.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31The SNP had also finished second
0:22:31 > 0:22:35to Labour in 30 other seats across Scotland.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39The mutual loathing between the two sides was very much on display
0:22:39 > 0:22:43when the Labour politician Brian Wilson debated independence
0:22:43 > 0:22:44at the Oxford Union.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47..Mr Brian Wilson to speak second for Scotland and against the motion.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55Mr President, ladies and gentlemen,
0:22:55 > 0:22:59I stand before you, if Mrs Margo MacDonald is to be believed,
0:22:59 > 0:23:02as a parasite lacking in self-respect,
0:23:02 > 0:23:05and I think in her speech we heard the language of intolerance
0:23:05 > 0:23:09that we in Scotland have come to associate with nationalism.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12They were viewed as opportunistic, as chameleons.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14One place, they're socialist. Another other place,
0:23:14 > 0:23:17they're right-wing Tories. The basis of the SNP vote was built
0:23:17 > 0:23:21in the strongest Tory areas in Scotland, and the grafting on
0:23:21 > 0:23:25of sort of radical credentials came much, much later.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27But still, there were two tribes that really disliked
0:23:27 > 0:23:30each other, weren't there? I mean, Nats and Labour Party people
0:23:30 > 0:23:32had no time for each other whatever.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34In general, I think that was true.
0:23:34 > 0:23:38But I think the reason for that is that the SNP
0:23:38 > 0:23:41have always, certainly in the past 30 years,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44that if they were going to prevail,
0:23:44 > 0:23:49which they've come quite close to doing, that the prerequisite for
0:23:49 > 0:23:52that was the destruction of the Labour Party in Scotland.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57In 1976,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Labour's Jim Callaghan took over from Harold Wilson
0:24:00 > 0:24:04as Prime Minister, but the gains made by the SNP in Scotland
0:24:04 > 0:24:06had shaken Jim to his socks.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10To fight back, he proposed to create a Scottish Assembly with
0:24:10 > 0:24:13very limited devolutionary powers.
0:24:17 > 0:24:22There's room for much diversity within that sovereignty.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25And if you wish it,
0:24:25 > 0:24:29an elected assembly is yours for the taking.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33If you do so, and I would encourage you,
0:24:33 > 0:24:37in the belief that a yes vote is good for Scotland and certainly not
0:24:37 > 0:24:39harmful to the rest of us,
0:24:39 > 0:24:44you will take the first and most essential step to putting an end
0:24:44 > 0:24:49to a controversy that has distracted politics in Scotland,
0:24:49 > 0:24:51intermittently, for a century.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58This was a huge political gamble, vaguely reminiscent of
0:24:58 > 0:25:01David Cameron's proposal for the EU referendum.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05But then, a group of anti-devolution Labour MPs
0:25:05 > 0:25:08moved an unprecedented amendment,
0:25:08 > 0:25:12that unless 40% of those on the electoral register in Scotland
0:25:12 > 0:25:15voted yes, the Assembly wouldn't happen.
0:25:17 > 0:25:22But as the 1970s meandered on, Britain and Scotland limped.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24The economy was shot,
0:25:24 > 0:25:28the winters were long and everybody seemed to be on strike.
0:25:28 > 0:25:32For many, the mood was cautious and nervous.
0:25:32 > 0:25:36The Winter of Discontent was, in retrospect, about the worst
0:25:36 > 0:25:40possible time to be holding a referendum for radical, new change.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44On March 1st, 1979,
0:25:44 > 0:25:49Scotland went to the polls to record a very timid yes.
0:25:49 > 0:25:50Number of yes votes...
0:25:52 > 0:25:57..1,230,937.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59But, it wasn't enough.
0:25:59 > 0:26:04That's 40% hurdle hadn't been reached and the result was
0:26:04 > 0:26:06a kind of massive anti-climax.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12Once again, however, British politics was on the move.
0:26:13 > 0:26:17Well ahead in the polls, the Conservatives proposed a vote
0:26:17 > 0:26:19of no-confidence in the Labour government.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22I always look forward to a good fight.
0:26:22 > 0:26:24The Tories needed a majority and the SNP,
0:26:24 > 0:26:28in revenge for Labour's failure to deliver devolution,
0:26:28 > 0:26:31sided with the Conservatives and the Liberals,
0:26:31 > 0:26:34and the government was defeated by a single vote.
0:26:35 > 0:26:39It was a move Jim Callaghan famously described as turkeys voting
0:26:39 > 0:26:40for an early Christmas.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46By voting to bring down Labour, the SNP had certainly helped bring
0:26:46 > 0:26:48Margaret Thatcher to Scotland.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53'..and Mrs Thatcher waves as Prime Minister.'
0:26:53 > 0:26:57And so, while the Tories dominated in England,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00the SNP were punished in Scotland,
0:27:00 > 0:27:03helping Labour do better and turning Scotland red -
0:27:03 > 0:27:06or at least an angry pink.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09When I first started as a young reporter in Scotland
0:27:09 > 0:27:14in the early 1980s, staggering my way rather unsteadily up and down
0:27:14 > 0:27:17these stairs to the back door of The Scotsman,
0:27:17 > 0:27:21Scotland seemed an unassailably Labour country.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25Even in the 1979 general election, Margaret Thatcher's great triumph,
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Labour in Scotland had a clear majority,
0:27:28 > 0:27:3144 out of 71 of the available seats.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34And by 1987, that had risen to 50.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36Labour seemed impregnable.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41Now, if, by some kind of beery alchemy, I was able to travel back
0:27:41 > 0:27:45in time and tap my younger self on the shoulder
0:27:45 > 0:27:47and tell him that, by 2015,
0:27:47 > 0:27:52Labour in Scotland would have been reduced to one, just one MP,
0:27:52 > 0:27:57younger Marr would've said to me, "You something-something lunatic!"
0:27:57 > 0:27:58I would not have believed it.
0:27:59 > 0:28:03This mismatch between Labour Scotland and Tory-dominated
0:28:03 > 0:28:09Westminster gave rise to a popular idea - that Scotland was being ruled
0:28:09 > 0:28:13from London against the will of the Scottish people.
0:28:13 > 0:28:1730 years on and exactly the same rhetoric is still being used.
0:28:17 > 0:28:23As things stand, Scotland faces the prospect of being taken out
0:28:23 > 0:28:26of the EU against our will.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29But this sense of us against London reached its zenith
0:28:29 > 0:28:31during the Thatcher years,
0:28:31 > 0:28:35and what's really raised the hackles was when the Tories introduced
0:28:35 > 0:28:38the poll tax to Scotland in 1989,
0:28:38 > 0:28:41a year before the rest of the UK.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43MAN CHANTS: We're not paying the poll tax!
0:28:43 > 0:28:44We're not paying the poll tax!
0:28:46 > 0:28:49Thatcher's got no mandate in Scotland, not a vestige left
0:28:49 > 0:28:52after last Thursday. This is a Tory-free zone
0:28:52 > 0:28:55and it's got to be a poll tax-free zone, as well.
0:28:55 > 0:28:59The "no mandate" argument was the notion that a party which failed
0:28:59 > 0:29:04to get a majority in Scotland had no moral right to rule there.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09In that period, how important was the poll tax in sharpening the idea
0:29:09 > 0:29:12the Tories didn't have a mandate and making it all a bit more intense
0:29:12 > 0:29:14and a bit more aggressive?
0:29:14 > 0:29:21It was very significant, because it crystallised the difference between
0:29:21 > 0:29:23what was being legislated for at Westminster and
0:29:23 > 0:29:25what the majority of people in Scotland,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28just as the majority of people in very large,
0:29:28 > 0:29:30other parts of the UK wanted.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35But this wasn't just coming from the SNP.
0:29:35 > 0:29:39Many people within Labour were also speaking out about
0:29:39 > 0:29:41a democratic deficit.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45The idea that Scotland was being ruled by a Westminster government
0:29:45 > 0:29:48without a mandate.
0:29:50 > 0:29:51The Scottish Tories,
0:29:51 > 0:29:56they must know that 25% of the vote gives no mandate to pursue policies
0:29:56 > 0:29:58that Scotland rejected.
0:29:58 > 0:30:02If they push on with the unacceptable proposals of recent years,
0:30:02 > 0:30:06they will try the patience of Scotland beyond breaking point.
0:30:08 > 0:30:13But for a unionist party to reject the idea of a Westminster government
0:30:13 > 0:30:15was kamikaze politics.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19The Labour Party started to talk about the Tories
0:30:19 > 0:30:21not having a Scottish mandate.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24Was that a serious mistake for your party?
0:30:24 > 0:30:28That was a serious mistake, to subscribe to that rhetoric.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30I grew up in Argyllshire.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32All my life, there've been Tory MPs there.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35The idea that Scotland didn't have Tories was nonsensical.
0:30:35 > 0:30:39All you were really saying was that a substantial minority
0:30:39 > 0:30:42within Scotland should have no representation,
0:30:42 > 0:30:45and to me that wasn't a very clever argument.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48But more fundamentally,
0:30:48 > 0:30:52I think the problem was that a generation of Scottish Labour
0:30:52 > 0:30:54politicians arose who thought that was the only solution,
0:30:54 > 0:30:56that was all you needed to do,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59and stopped thinking about anything else,
0:30:59 > 0:31:03and particularly, stopped understanding the dangers for
0:31:03 > 0:31:05the Labour Party and for progressive politics
0:31:05 > 0:31:07that was inherent in that approach.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13What may come, however, as a bit of a surprise is that there was
0:31:13 > 0:31:15actually a Scottish element to many
0:31:15 > 0:31:18of Margaret Thatcher's era-defining policies.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28Now, it's often claimed, particularly by left-leaning Scots,
0:31:28 > 0:31:32that Margaret Thatcher was somehow an alien influence in Scotland.
0:31:32 > 0:31:34This is not entirely true.
0:31:34 > 0:31:38In the early 1970s, when the big state was at its biggest,
0:31:38 > 0:31:43a group of free-market libertarian students met together at St Andrews
0:31:43 > 0:31:47University in Fife and began to talk about ways of dismantling
0:31:47 > 0:31:51the big state through a new word - privatisation.
0:31:51 > 0:31:56In 1977, they formed the Adam Smith Institute, which became one of the
0:31:56 > 0:31:59key influences on Margaret Thatcher's government.
0:31:59 > 0:32:04The voice, to Scottish ears, might have been unpleasingly English,
0:32:04 > 0:32:09but the ideas it was expressing had been welded together in Fife.
0:32:09 > 0:32:13One of those intellectual welders was Michael Forsyth,
0:32:13 > 0:32:16who'd become Margaret Thatcher's most trusted lieutenant
0:32:16 > 0:32:17north of the border.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20'She promoted right-winger Michael Forsyth,
0:32:20 > 0:32:23'putting him in charge of health and education.'
0:32:23 > 0:32:26I mean, I went up to St Andrews thinking I was a socialist,
0:32:26 > 0:32:29and I encountered extraordinary people like Madsen Pirie and
0:32:29 > 0:32:33Eamonn Butler, who set up the Adam Smith Institute subsequently.
0:32:33 > 0:32:38And they were bubbling with ideas, and so the things I cared about,
0:32:38 > 0:32:41you know, how you could create a meritocratic society,
0:32:41 > 0:32:45how we could extend choice, how we could reduce the power of the state,
0:32:45 > 0:32:47how we could increase personal freedoms,
0:32:47 > 0:32:49there was a ferment of ideas.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51This is very, very interesting, because it's often said,
0:32:51 > 0:32:53particularly on the left, obviously,
0:32:53 > 0:32:57that Scotland was a place that was alien for Thatcher ideas,
0:32:57 > 0:33:00and Margaret Thatcher found Scotland a completely alien country.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03I mean, I knew Margaret was involved as a youngster in a leadership
0:33:03 > 0:33:06campaign and I can remember her being greeted with cheering crowds,
0:33:06 > 0:33:08shouting, "Maggie, Maggie, Maggie!"
0:33:08 > 0:33:11Hello!
0:33:13 > 0:33:16The period of Margaret Thatcher's governments, especially in terms of
0:33:16 > 0:33:19Scottish perception, and, even more important,
0:33:19 > 0:33:23Scottish historical memory, encrusted with myth.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25Still people believe,
0:33:25 > 0:33:28despite the recent successes or partial successes
0:33:28 > 0:33:31of the Conservative Party in Scottish elections,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34they still regard that period as a terrible time for Scotland.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41Of course, it's not without a core of truth,
0:33:41 > 0:33:43but if you look at the fundamental problem,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45which was the Scottish economic problem,
0:33:45 > 0:33:48industries had been decaying for at least a generation.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51And so, in that sense, it was a tragedy.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56But the myths grew gnarled and almost overwhelming,
0:33:56 > 0:33:59and Mrs Thatcher did little to allay them.
0:34:00 > 0:34:04In 1988, just two years before she was forced from power,
0:34:04 > 0:34:07Margaret Thatcher came here to The Mound in Edinburgh to address
0:34:07 > 0:34:10the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland,
0:34:10 > 0:34:13the church's annual governing conference.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15And her message caused what people in Scotland
0:34:15 > 0:34:18would call "a bit of a stooshie" - a heck of a row.
0:34:18 > 0:34:20Perhaps it would be best, Moderator,
0:34:20 > 0:34:23if I began by speaking personally as a Christian,
0:34:23 > 0:34:28as well as a politician, about the way I see things.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Yes, she said, Christians should look after the poor and the weak,
0:34:31 > 0:34:34but first they had to believe in wealth creation,
0:34:34 > 0:34:36otherwise where did the money come from?
0:34:36 > 0:34:38And they had to believe in original sin.
0:34:38 > 0:34:42And that they should look after their own families first
0:34:42 > 0:34:46and they should not depend on high taxation or over-mighty government.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50But, intervention by the state must never become so great
0:34:50 > 0:34:55that it effectively removes personal responsibility.
0:34:55 > 0:34:5850 or 100 years earlier,
0:34:58 > 0:35:02that message would have caused no ripple of dissent in the Church of
0:35:02 > 0:35:05Scotland or most other Christian churches in Britain.
0:35:05 > 0:35:09So why did it upset so many people in 1988?
0:35:11 > 0:35:14I think it was the time and the tone.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16After the miseries of deindustrialisation,
0:35:16 > 0:35:20the miners' strike, Scots had had enough of what they regarded
0:35:20 > 0:35:24as Margaret Thatcher's grating, patronising voice,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28that perfectly manicured fingernail jabbing at them.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31The churchmen made it clear they were distinctly unamused,
0:35:31 > 0:35:35and, in that, they spoke for many Scots.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37As many commentators said at the time,
0:35:37 > 0:35:41as far as the Scots were concerned, Margaret Thatcher was
0:35:41 > 0:35:46the very incarnation of an unacceptable type of Englishness.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50Everything from her clearly bourgeois demeanour,
0:35:50 > 0:35:52her cut-glass English accent,
0:35:52 > 0:35:55her apparently patronising behaviour.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58You could argue, I think, that if it had been a different personality
0:35:58 > 0:36:00leading the Tory Party,
0:36:00 > 0:36:05although their policies would have ensured a degree of alienation,
0:36:05 > 0:36:08they might not have ensured the degree of alienation
0:36:08 > 0:36:11which came the way of Margaret Thatcher's governance.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14Two years later and Margaret Thatcher did this
0:36:14 > 0:36:17disastrous interview with a young Kirsty Wark.
0:36:17 > 0:36:22I was very perturbed at the last election that we in Scotland
0:36:22 > 0:36:26hadn't quite had the full benefit
0:36:26 > 0:36:30of the increasing number of jobs that there were.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Her way of showing Scotland wasn't being ruled from London
0:36:33 > 0:36:36was simply to replace "you" with "we".
0:36:36 > 0:36:39..and it's going to, it looks from the latest figures,
0:36:39 > 0:36:42as if we in Scotland are going to have higher growth
0:36:42 > 0:36:44than the people further south.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47Just a tad cheeky, Mrs T.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50Prime Minister, thank you very much. Thank you.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Less than a year later, Margaret Thatcher resigned.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58Ladies and gentlemen,
0:36:58 > 0:37:01we're leaving Downing Street for the last time.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03But the fall of Margaret Thatcher's only part of the
0:37:03 > 0:37:05political story of Scotland.
0:37:07 > 0:37:11How did the SNP now rise from marginal to mainstream?
0:37:14 > 0:37:18The Nationalists picked up on the anger caused by Margaret Thatcher
0:37:18 > 0:37:21and started to appeal to people on the left.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24This is a powerful and a very carefully-phrased resolution.
0:37:24 > 0:37:29This period also saw the first appearances by a young Alex Salmond.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32It is a government of occupation we face in Scotland,
0:37:32 > 0:37:36just as surely as if they had an army at their backs,
0:37:36 > 0:37:38and when you think about it, perhaps they have.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Salmond had always been a committed left-winger,
0:37:42 > 0:37:47supporting a socialist faction called the 79 Group.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50He worked to shed the SNP's right-wing image
0:37:50 > 0:37:52and turn it into a party of the centre-left.
0:37:54 > 0:37:58Salmond rose to become the SNP's leader just three years
0:37:58 > 0:38:00after reaching Westminster.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04I think it's very important for the party to set ambitious targets.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06I mean, there are 37% of people
0:38:06 > 0:38:08already believing in Scottish independence.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10We've never had that situation before in Scottish politics.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16One of the earliest moves Alex Salmond made as leader was
0:38:16 > 0:38:19to confront the sectarian divisions which stopped so many people
0:38:19 > 0:38:22from even thinking of voting SNP.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25One of the things that I remember very clearly from the Scotland I was
0:38:25 > 0:38:28brought up in was that it was still religiously divided, even in Dundee,
0:38:28 > 0:38:31the big Orange parades and all the rest of it.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34All football teams were completely religiously affiliated one way or
0:38:34 > 0:38:37another and the SNP, particularly in the West of Scotland,
0:38:37 > 0:38:40was seen as essentially a Protestant party against
0:38:40 > 0:38:42the pro-Catholic Labour Party.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45Yes, and I deliberately went out to change that.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49I mean, you know, listen, the SNP never wanted to be identified with
0:38:49 > 0:38:55a religion, but because of Labour's domination of the Catholic vote
0:38:55 > 0:38:59in Scotland, which, in many senses, was a largely immigrant vote
0:38:59 > 0:39:02from Ireland, because Labour held that and held it fast,
0:39:02 > 0:39:06then basically what was left tended to be non-Catholic.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Now, that had to be changed,
0:39:09 > 0:39:12and therefore I quite deliberately, in the 1990s,
0:39:12 > 0:39:14went out to say to people,
0:39:14 > 0:39:17"Look, we have to do more than just say
0:39:17 > 0:39:19"we are not on one side or another,
0:39:19 > 0:39:22"we have to make it absolutely clear in a variety of ways
0:39:22 > 0:39:26"that the SNP is a party which embraces
0:39:26 > 0:39:29"all of the trends and tendencies in Scotland."
0:39:31 > 0:39:35But Alex Salmond's brand of leadership didn't always appeal.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39# Oh, rowan tree
0:39:39 > 0:39:44# Thou'll aye be dear tae me... #
0:39:44 > 0:39:48And it would still be a while before the SNP could completely shake off
0:39:48 > 0:39:54their image as a protest party and slightly odd outsiders in politics.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59And if we can run into the election in a challenging position,
0:39:59 > 0:40:01over 20% in the opinion polls,
0:40:01 > 0:40:06then sky could be the limit for the SNP in that election campaign.
0:40:06 > 0:40:11# There wasnae sic a bonnie tree... #
0:40:11 > 0:40:14I think it's good to say, you know, independence for Scotland,
0:40:14 > 0:40:17free by '93 - very important to set high targets.
0:40:17 > 0:40:22# Oh, rowan tree. #
0:40:24 > 0:40:27But Scotland was never free by '93.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30In fact, in the general election of 1992,
0:40:30 > 0:40:34the Nationalists won only three seats in Scotland.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37The Tories were the surprise winners at Westminster,
0:40:37 > 0:40:39but Labour kept control of Scotland.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46This brought back the idea the Tories had no mandate,
0:40:46 > 0:40:49which was an extremely dangerous idea for Labour
0:40:49 > 0:40:52because they were a profoundly unionist party.
0:40:54 > 0:40:57It was a danger masked, at least for a while,
0:40:57 > 0:41:00because now British Labour chose a Scottish leader.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04I, therefore, declare
0:41:04 > 0:41:08that John Smith is elected the leader of the Labour Party.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12But who was John Smith
0:41:12 > 0:41:16and what did he bring to the Labour Party and Scotland?
0:41:19 > 0:41:24All this gorgeous countryside is really John Smith country.
0:41:24 > 0:41:30He was a studious, serious Highland boy, who grew up to be a studious,
0:41:30 > 0:41:34serious Edinburgh lawyer and then a studious and serious and
0:41:34 > 0:41:39highly successful government minister and then Shadow Chancellor,
0:41:39 > 0:41:41leader of the Labour Party.
0:41:42 > 0:41:43The most important thing, though,
0:41:43 > 0:41:48was his utter, shiny-shoed, imperturbable self-confidence.
0:41:48 > 0:41:53We talk a lot in Scotland sometimes about the Scottish cultural cringe,
0:41:53 > 0:41:58that sense of inferiority complex when Scots confronted by the more
0:41:58 > 0:42:03loquacious, swaggering, wealthier and much more numerous English,
0:42:03 > 0:42:05in particular the English establishment,
0:42:05 > 0:42:08and John had not a shred of that.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12All the way through, he thought he was better than they were.
0:42:12 > 0:42:13He didn't take them at all seriously.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16I promised some vigorous changes for the Labour Party
0:42:16 > 0:42:18which will be carried through.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21But they're predictable Conservative attacks.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23They also attack the individuals
0:42:23 > 0:42:26and I'll no doubt be subject to a great deal of that,
0:42:26 > 0:42:29not just from the Tories, but from some of their friends in the tabloids,
0:42:29 > 0:42:32but that just goes with the job and I'll deal with it with as much
0:42:32 > 0:42:33forbearance as I can muster.
0:42:36 > 0:42:37Now that he was leader,
0:42:37 > 0:42:41Smith chose to bring back a policy he had worked on for Jim Callaghan
0:42:41 > 0:42:43back in the 1970s.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47It is the Labour Party which has campaigned to get
0:42:47 > 0:42:49a Scottish Assembly established.
0:42:49 > 0:42:53No other political party has pioneered the way
0:42:53 > 0:42:55in which this Labour Party has.
0:42:55 > 0:43:00Smith said he felt that Scottish devolution was unfinished business.
0:43:00 > 0:43:04But surely, that devolution would help Labour reign supreme?
0:43:05 > 0:43:09He thought that a devolved Scottish Parliament would satisfy Scottish
0:43:09 > 0:43:13aspirations and, in particular, would see off, would scupper
0:43:13 > 0:43:16the real enemy, the SNP,
0:43:16 > 0:43:19leaving Scotland as a secure Labour bastion.
0:43:21 > 0:43:25Which only goes to show that John Smith might have been a fine man,
0:43:25 > 0:43:27but he wasn't right about everything.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34Politics is full of the unexpected,
0:43:34 > 0:43:36and on May 11th, 1994,
0:43:36 > 0:43:39a sad event took everybody by surprise.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44The death of Labour leader John Smith has stunned not just the world
0:43:44 > 0:43:47of politics but the whole country.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50He died this morning in a London hospital after suffering his second
0:43:50 > 0:43:52heart attack in six years.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56John Smith's funeral was attended by people from across
0:43:56 > 0:43:58the political establishment.
0:43:58 > 0:44:02His close friend Donald Dewar delivered a moving address
0:44:02 > 0:44:05to the packed church in Edinburgh.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08No-one would deny the sincerity,
0:44:08 > 0:44:10the tenacity, the true spirit of the man.
0:44:14 > 0:44:18John Smith was buried on the tiny island of Iona
0:44:18 > 0:44:20in the Inner Hebrides.
0:44:20 > 0:44:25The Church of Scotland minister George MacLeod once called Iona
0:44:25 > 0:44:30"a thin place, where only a tissue paper separates heaven and earth".
0:44:32 > 0:44:34John Smith's widow Elizabeth said it
0:44:34 > 0:44:37was here that he felt most happy and relaxed.
0:44:38 > 0:44:43It's often said that we personalise politics too much these days.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45Well, maybe we do, but still,
0:44:45 > 0:44:49the randomness of human life is very, very important.
0:44:49 > 0:44:53Had John Smith lived, he would almost certainly have become
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Labour Prime Minister in 1997.
0:44:56 > 0:45:00We would not have lived through New Labour, as it subsequently developed.
0:45:00 > 0:45:01Now, I don't know,
0:45:01 > 0:45:03but I don't believe that John Smith would have taken us
0:45:03 > 0:45:08into the Iraq War with George W Bush, and I think that, even now,
0:45:08 > 0:45:11more than 22 years on, the Labour Party today would be a different
0:45:11 > 0:45:14party had he lived and, therefore, the Tories would have been
0:45:14 > 0:45:16different, Scottish politics would have been different
0:45:16 > 0:45:21in unknowable ways, and all because of one overstressed heart
0:45:21 > 0:45:23and one very bad night.
0:45:33 > 0:45:37So, one of the things that happened as a result of John Smith's death
0:45:37 > 0:45:40was that leadership of the British Labour Party passed
0:45:40 > 0:45:44not to Smith's natural and obvious Scottish successor,
0:45:44 > 0:45:46the youthful Gordon Brown,
0:45:46 > 0:45:50but to Tony Blair, a politician of a very different kidney.
0:45:50 > 0:45:54Blair had had a Scottish father and he'd been educated partly
0:45:54 > 0:45:57in Edinburgh, but to most Scots he simply didn't sound
0:45:57 > 0:45:59or look Scottish at all,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02and his politics were much more focused on winning over
0:46:02 > 0:46:05the floating middle-English voters to Labour,
0:46:05 > 0:46:09demolishing that long Thatcher majority he'd lived under.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12And that simply produced a different atmosphere,
0:46:12 > 0:46:14a different form of words, a different tone, if you like,
0:46:14 > 0:46:16in Labour politics.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19Tone had a different tone entirely.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23Since the Chilcot Inquiry,
0:46:23 > 0:46:26Tony Blair's become an even more controversial figure,
0:46:26 > 0:46:31but his role is still key to the story of modern Scottish politics,
0:46:31 > 0:46:34because when he took over from John Smith,
0:46:34 > 0:46:38devolution became one of New Labour's flagship policies.
0:46:39 > 0:46:44And many within the party believed it would fend off the SNP for good.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48A Scottish Parliament inside and strengthening the United Kingdom
0:46:48 > 0:46:52would kill the SNP, because the majority of people in Scotland
0:46:52 > 0:46:55want control over their own lives, over domestic affairs,
0:46:55 > 0:46:58but they don't want to wrench Scotland out of the United Kingdom.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04It's been said that it was Elizabeth Smith who said to you
0:47:04 > 0:47:05after John Smith's death,
0:47:05 > 0:47:08"You know, you must press ahead with devolution, because
0:47:08 > 0:47:12"that's my husband's inheritance and you owe it to him, as it were."
0:47:12 > 0:47:15Was that true? Was that part of your motivation
0:47:15 > 0:47:18for pushing ahead so strongly with Scottish devolution?
0:47:18 > 0:47:20Elizabeth Smith was obviously very keen
0:47:20 > 0:47:24that John's legacy on devolution should be protected,
0:47:24 > 0:47:27but in any event it was part of the Labour Party's programme
0:47:27 > 0:47:30and I believed in it. You know, we've got to understand
0:47:30 > 0:47:32that the cause of devolution, at least,
0:47:32 > 0:47:36had been going on for 100 years or more before the Scottish Parliament,
0:47:36 > 0:47:40and, of course, in the 1970s had been a dominant issue
0:47:40 > 0:47:42in the politics of the Labour government at that time.
0:47:42 > 0:47:47So I think this has always been an argument that's been there
0:47:47 > 0:47:52and been latent at times, coming to the surface at other times.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54John Smith, who I was very close to, obviously,
0:47:54 > 0:47:57was a passionate supporter of devolution,
0:47:57 > 0:47:59and devolution was the Labour Party's programme.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03I mean, this was a programme I inherited as leader.
0:48:03 > 0:48:04CHEERING
0:48:04 > 0:48:07He arrived at Buckingham Palace,
0:48:07 > 0:48:11the first Labour premier for 18 years and the youngest this century.
0:48:12 > 0:48:17New Labour moved swiftly to push forward Scottish devolution.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20Four months after the May 1997 general election,
0:48:20 > 0:48:23there was a referendum in Scotland,
0:48:23 > 0:48:27asking people if they supported the creation of a Scottish Parliament.
0:48:27 > 0:48:33And the result was a resounding yes vote of almost 75%.
0:48:33 > 0:48:38And so, almost three centuries after the 1707 Act of Union,
0:48:38 > 0:48:41the Scottish Parliament rose again.
0:48:42 > 0:48:47Scotland does not need to choose, and should not be forced to choose
0:48:47 > 0:48:51between separation and no change,
0:48:51 > 0:48:55that there is a better, modern way forward,
0:48:55 > 0:48:57there is a third way -
0:48:57 > 0:49:01that way is devolution within the United Kingdom.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08Waiting for a new building, the parliament was housed
0:49:08 > 0:49:11in the same place where Margaret Thatcher had once delivered
0:49:11 > 0:49:13her sermon on The Mound.
0:49:13 > 0:49:18On July 1st, 1999 it was officially opened by the Queen,
0:49:18 > 0:49:21and received its full legislative powers.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25And Donald Dewar, Scotland's first First Minister,
0:49:25 > 0:49:28made this memorable maiden speech.
0:49:31 > 0:49:36This is, indeed, a moment anchored in our history.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39And in the quiet moments of today, if there are any,
0:49:39 > 0:49:41we might hear some echoes from the past.
0:49:42 > 0:49:46The shout of the welder in the din of the great Clyde shipyards.
0:49:46 > 0:49:49The speak of the Mearns, rooted in the land.
0:49:49 > 0:49:53The discourse of the Enlightenment, when Edinburgh and Glasgow
0:49:53 > 0:49:56were indeed a light held to the intellectual life of Europe.
0:49:56 > 0:50:00The wild cry of the great pipes and back to the distant noise
0:50:00 > 0:50:03of battles in the days of Bruce and Wallace.
0:50:04 > 0:50:07The past is part of us, part of every one of us,
0:50:07 > 0:50:11and we respect it, but today there is a new voice in the land,
0:50:11 > 0:50:14the voice of a democratic parliament.
0:50:14 > 0:50:16A voice to shape Scotland.
0:50:16 > 0:50:20A voice, above all, for the future.
0:50:20 > 0:50:23APPLAUSE
0:50:23 > 0:50:26The first Scottish elections had been held earlier that year in May.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31Labour were the winners, gaining 21 seats more than the SNP,
0:50:31 > 0:50:34and they formed a coalition with the Lib Dems.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38But Labour's dominant position was making the party
0:50:38 > 0:50:40arrogant and overconfident.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43When I was growing up in Ayrshire, the saying used to be,
0:50:43 > 0:50:45you could put a red rosette on a monkey
0:50:45 > 0:50:47and people would still vote for it.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49And, you know, it was meant as a joke,
0:50:49 > 0:50:51but I suspect Labour started to believe that...
0:50:51 > 0:50:53There were some monkeys in Westminster.
0:50:53 > 0:50:56..they were untouchable. That is not what I would say, but, you know,
0:50:56 > 0:50:59there was a sense that Labour could do anything they wanted
0:50:59 > 0:51:02and people would still, in Scotland, would still blindly vote for them.
0:51:02 > 0:51:06And this emerging hubris among the Labour Party in Scotland
0:51:06 > 0:51:09as they continued to win election after election,
0:51:09 > 0:51:12but especially in the local areas, it used to be said that
0:51:12 > 0:51:15their votes were weighed rather than counted,
0:51:15 > 0:51:21is a serious historical lesson for the current SNP government.
0:51:21 > 0:51:23The danger of hubris.
0:51:23 > 0:51:27The danger of self-satisfaction and taking things for granted,
0:51:27 > 0:51:28which can easily occur
0:51:28 > 0:51:32if a political party is continuously dominant.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38New Labour also introduced policies
0:51:38 > 0:51:41that alienated the party's core vote.
0:51:45 > 0:51:47Privatisation,
0:51:47 > 0:51:49welfare reform,
0:51:49 > 0:51:51trade union legislation,
0:51:51 > 0:51:55tuition fees, which were reversed by the Scottish Parliament but then,
0:51:55 > 0:51:57of course, the war in Iraq.
0:51:59 > 0:52:04In February, 2003, tens of thousands of people demonstrated in Glasgow,
0:52:04 > 0:52:08and one of the main speakers at the rally was John Swinney,
0:52:08 > 0:52:11who was then the leader of the SNP.
0:52:11 > 0:52:16Prime Minister, one last time, are you listening
0:52:16 > 0:52:19to the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland?
0:52:19 > 0:52:23Not in our name! No way!
0:52:25 > 0:52:28Seizing this and many other opportunities given to them
0:52:28 > 0:52:31by the Blair government, the SNP were on the rise again
0:52:31 > 0:52:37and this time attacking the very notion of Tony Blair's New Labour.
0:52:37 > 0:52:40Now, New Labour was never a Scottish construct.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43Now, of course, that didn't mean it wasn't successful in Scotland,
0:52:43 > 0:52:46and Blair had at least two successful elections in Scotland,
0:52:46 > 0:52:49but he was never loved in Scotland.
0:52:49 > 0:52:51He was never approved of in Scotland.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53And, of course, the Iraq War poisoned the well
0:52:53 > 0:52:55to an extraordinary degree.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57So you had the SNP emerging
0:52:57 > 0:53:00as a viable alternative, while you had much, much disillusionment
0:53:00 > 0:53:03with the Labour Party in Scotland,
0:53:03 > 0:53:05and I think that is...a combination of that,
0:53:05 > 0:53:08is why we won the 2007 Scottish election.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11CHEERING
0:53:11 > 0:53:13In May 2007,
0:53:13 > 0:53:17the SNP beat Labour by one seat to win the Scottish
0:53:17 > 0:53:20parliamentary elections and form a minority government.
0:53:20 > 0:53:25The first time the Nationalists had ever been in power.
0:53:26 > 0:53:30Four years later, they won a commanding majority at Holyrood.
0:53:30 > 0:53:34Blue Scotland and red Scotland had now gone.
0:53:34 > 0:53:39The entire country seemed to be Nationalist to bumblebee - black and yellow.
0:53:40 > 0:53:46The SNP can finally claim that we have lived up to that accolade
0:53:46 > 0:53:48as the National Party of Scotland.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51And this meant one big thing,
0:53:51 > 0:53:55plans for an independence referendum were now well and truly afoot.
0:53:55 > 0:53:59We shall bring forward a referendum and trust the people
0:53:59 > 0:54:02with Scotland's own constitutional future.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04Thank you very much.
0:54:04 > 0:54:09So how do we best explain the recent rise of the SNP?
0:54:09 > 0:54:13Was it somehow inevitable or was it also down to Labour
0:54:13 > 0:54:16and the creation of this parliament at Holyrood?
0:54:16 > 0:54:19So if you think that the momentum which has taken us to the lip of
0:54:19 > 0:54:23independence now starts with the creation of the Scottish Parliament,
0:54:23 > 0:54:27the obvious question then is if the Scottish Parliament had been denied
0:54:27 > 0:54:30to Scotland, could all of this have been avoided?
0:54:30 > 0:54:33No, because people in Scotland wanted a parliament,
0:54:33 > 0:54:36so if it had been denied to the people of Scotland, who knows,
0:54:36 > 0:54:39we might be independent already, because people wanted...
0:54:39 > 0:54:42I think the lesson for Labour is that they thought...
0:54:42 > 0:54:45The Scottish Parliament for them was a calculation about
0:54:45 > 0:54:49how they could contain the aspirations of the Scottish people.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52And I think the lesson for them should be you can't contain
0:54:52 > 0:54:53the aspirations of a country.
0:54:53 > 0:54:56Scotland wanted a Scottish Parliament and therefore,
0:54:56 > 0:54:59if had been denied it by Labour, it would have...
0:54:59 > 0:55:01that sentiment would have found another direction.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04And, likewise, if Scotland wants to be independent,
0:55:04 > 0:55:06nothing ultimately is going to stop that happening.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09The New Labour response to the rise of the SNP
0:55:09 > 0:55:12is, unsurprisingly, a bit different.
0:55:12 > 0:55:15They declined to blame themselves and instead put it down
0:55:15 > 0:55:18to identity politics.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21I think the Scottish National Party has arisen for all sorts of reasons,
0:55:21 > 0:55:24and so I think what would be a mistake is to think
0:55:24 > 0:55:28that this issue hadn't been there, or this gathering sense Scotland
0:55:28 > 0:55:31certainly wanted more power over its own destiny hadn't been there,
0:55:31 > 0:55:34so the question really is what is the thing that has driven it
0:55:34 > 0:55:37with such vigour in these last couple of decades?
0:55:37 > 0:55:39And what's your answer to that?
0:55:39 > 0:55:42Because it's been an extraordinary change, very, very fast indeed.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45My instinct is that it's part of actually what is a bigger
0:55:45 > 0:55:49global movement, where people want a greater sense of identity,
0:55:49 > 0:55:55look for identity, where identity politics is much more important,
0:55:55 > 0:55:57and where people also...
0:55:57 > 0:56:00they like to be part of a kind of insurgent movement
0:56:00 > 0:56:05against the other thing that is dominating people's lives,
0:56:05 > 0:56:09whether it's UK and Brussels, or whether it's...
0:56:09 > 0:56:11Scotland and Westminster,
0:56:11 > 0:56:14but you can see very similar things happening right round the world.
0:56:15 > 0:56:19For much of 2011, after that initial announcement of a referendum,
0:56:19 > 0:56:22not a lot actually happened.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25There were meetings, negotiations and cheery pronouncements,
0:56:25 > 0:56:28and then in January 2012,
0:56:28 > 0:56:32David Cameron, speaking to some haggard-looking bloke on the BBC,
0:56:32 > 0:56:34upped the ante.
0:56:34 > 0:56:37And I think we owe the Scottish people something that is
0:56:37 > 0:56:39fair, legal and decisive.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42And so, in the coming days, we'll be setting out clearly
0:56:42 > 0:56:44what the legal situation is,
0:56:44 > 0:56:47and I think then we need to move forward and say,
0:56:47 > 0:56:49"Right, let's settle this issue in a fair and decisive way."
0:56:49 > 0:56:51So you are saying, vote earlier.
0:56:51 > 0:56:55I think this is a matter for the Scottish people. It is, it is.
0:56:55 > 0:56:58If there are problems of uncertainty and lack of clarity,
0:56:58 > 0:57:02and I don't think we should just let this go on year after year.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04I think that's damaging for everyone concerned.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07So let's clear up the legal situation and then let's have
0:57:07 > 0:57:09a debate about how we bring this issue to a...
0:57:09 > 0:57:12Sooner not later? My view is that sooner rather than later would be better.
0:57:12 > 0:57:14Right.
0:57:15 > 0:57:20Two days later came the announcement from Alex Salmond and the Scottish government,
0:57:20 > 0:57:23the independence referendum would be held
0:57:23 > 0:57:25in the autumn of 2014.
0:57:25 > 0:57:29Your Scotland, your referendum.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32The date for the referendum has to be the autumn of 2014.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36That's because this is the biggest decision that Scotland has made for 300 years.
0:57:36 > 0:57:39The date had been set.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41The race was under way.
0:57:41 > 0:57:44What could possibly go wrong?
0:57:48 > 0:57:49In the next film,
0:57:49 > 0:57:53what really happened when Scotland voted on the issue of independence?
0:57:53 > 0:57:57I always believed that it was winnable. What we were
0:57:57 > 0:58:01putting forward was something which many, many Scots found attractive.
0:58:01 > 0:58:04The Nationalists could never make an economic case.
0:58:04 > 0:58:07An economic case will, in most circumstances,
0:58:07 > 0:58:09trump the emotion, if you like.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11And coming right up to date,
0:58:11 > 0:58:15what does Brexit mean for the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom?
0:58:16 > 0:58:20Are we, at last, about to witness the break-up of Britain?
0:58:21 > 0:58:25There's probably somewhere around a 50% chance that Scotland is
0:58:25 > 0:58:29going to vote to leave the United Kingdom in the next two years.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32If you want to find out more about historical
0:58:32 > 0:58:35and contemporary Scotland, just go to the website below
0:58:35 > 0:58:39and follow the links to the Open University.
0:59:18 > 0:59:20STELLA: You're under arrest.
0:59:20 > 0:59:22You're going to prison.
0:59:22 > 0:59:23In what sense are you free?
0:59:25 > 0:59:27PAUL: I live with a level of intensity
0:59:27 > 0:59:29unknown to you and others of your type.