0:00:03 > 0:00:04CHANTING
0:00:04 > 0:00:06We're English till we die!
0:00:06 > 0:00:09Tommy Robinson was the founder and leader of the English Defence
0:00:09 > 0:00:12League, always in the forefront of their controversial street protests.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14I don't care whether you say I'm racist,
0:00:14 > 0:00:18I don't care what you say to me, I don't care if you want to kill me.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21But then, three weeks ago, he suddenly announced he was leaving.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25I'm asking all my supporters who have followed me
0:00:25 > 0:00:29to put faith in the decision we are making and follow.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34He jumped ship to Quilliam, a counter-extremism think tank
0:00:34 > 0:00:38led by former Islamic extremist Maajid Nawaz.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42This is a wonderfully courageous and brave thing to do.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44But what made Tommy go from saying this...
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Islam is not a religion of peace, Islam is fascist
0:00:47 > 0:00:50and it is violent and this is the end!
0:00:50 > 0:00:51..to saying this?
0:00:51 > 0:00:54I don't believe street protest is the way forward.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56To solve the problem, we need the support
0:00:56 > 0:00:59and we need to work with Muslims in this country.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Tonight we tell the full story behind Tommy Robinson's
0:01:03 > 0:01:07resignation. How his journey with Mo Ansar, the man who tried to
0:01:07 > 0:01:08get the EDL banned,
0:01:08 > 0:01:11led to him quitting the organisation he founded.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14We need to change somehow, we do need to change.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16..and brought him together with Maajid Nawaz.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18We need to win the hearts and minds of the people.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20Is this the end of the EDL?
0:01:20 > 0:01:23And is it the beginning of a new Tommy Robinson or just
0:01:23 > 0:01:24a change of tactics?
0:01:35 > 0:01:39In April 2012, Tommy Robinson and Mo Ansar took part in the BBC
0:01:39 > 0:01:43programme The Big Questions to debate far right extremism.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45You can't call everyone who opposes anything to do with Islam far
0:01:45 > 0:01:47right, it's not right.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49You are bedfellows with people who are saying
0:01:49 > 0:01:53that we want to outlaw the Koran, we want to outlaw the hijab, we want to
0:01:53 > 0:01:55deport Muslims from Europe.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58You are trying to become a soft face,
0:01:58 > 0:02:02which is appeasing hatred against Muslims and Islamophobia.
0:02:02 > 0:02:03Islam is failing to integrate.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Islam needs to evolve, it needs to modernise.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Then, Mo Ansar, the man who had tried to get the EDL banned,
0:02:09 > 0:02:11issued a surprising invitation.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Tommy, if you and your family ever want to come
0:02:13 > 0:02:16and meet my family for dinner, you are more than welcome.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19This simple gesture of friendship led to Tommy
0:02:19 > 0:02:23and Mo agreeing to go on a journey together around British Islam.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26I had in my mind before we started the programme that,
0:02:26 > 0:02:29if the opportunity came up, that I would want to try
0:02:29 > 0:02:31and reach out to him somehow,
0:02:31 > 0:02:34I wanted to try and connect with him, just to try and educate him.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36I call him "no answer" rather than Mo Ansar...
0:02:36 > 0:02:38HE LAUGHS
0:02:38 > 0:02:40..cos he doesn't seem to have an answer to a lot of the issues
0:02:40 > 0:02:44but at the same time, I warm to him when I meet him.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51It's a journey where Mo took a huge risk attending an EDL rally.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54I'm incredibly nervous being here.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56Tommy paid his first visit to a mosque.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59This is Mohammed Ansar, everybody. Say hello.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Mo became the first Muslim ever to address the EDL.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04..slaves.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07And Tommy was confronted by his critics.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10Where does it say sexual slaves, where does it say sexual slaves?
0:03:10 > 0:03:15And discovered an unlikely ally over young girls covering up their hair.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18As a Muslim women, I feel uncomfortable
0:03:18 > 0:03:22when I see young girls, even if they're seven.
0:03:22 > 0:03:23I see so many of them.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26Because I do think it is about being grown-up.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32Tommy's personal story began in Luton, his home town,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36and one of the few places in Britain where Christians are a minority.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38Living here shaped his view of Islam.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44Back in 2009, a group of Islamic extremists staged a protest in
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Luton against a parade of soldiers returning home from Afghanistan.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Tommy was then 26 and running a plumbing business.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55The demonstration prompted him set up the English Defence League/
0:03:55 > 0:03:57This is the fourth time in four years
0:03:57 > 0:03:59we have tried to enter Tower Hamlets.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02'The English Defence League is the bravest people in this country.'
0:04:02 > 0:04:04People that are not afraid of political correctness,
0:04:04 > 0:04:07not afraid of coming under attack, not afraid of being smeared
0:04:07 > 0:04:10and having their reputation dragged through the mud and willing to stand
0:04:10 > 0:04:14up and give a voice to people who don't have a voice in this country.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18CHANTING
0:04:18 > 0:04:21But the EDL quickly developed a reputation for violence,
0:04:21 > 0:04:24racism and Islamophobia.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27The movement grew and Tommy became the unlikely spokesman
0:04:27 > 0:04:31and hero for people who shared in his concerns about Islam in Britain.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34Tommy may have been a hero to the EDL
0:04:34 > 0:04:37but to the wider world he was a pariah.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40There were counter demonstrations from groups
0:04:40 > 0:04:43like Unite Against Fascism at every EDL rally.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47Mainstream politicians refused to engage with him.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51And in November 2011, Mo Ansar, a diversity manager
0:04:51 > 0:04:52and Muslim commentator,
0:04:52 > 0:04:56set up an online petition calling for the EDL to be banned.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00I think the English Defence League are a real menace to society.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02I think they are a threat.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05I think the Government has been complacent in addressing the issues.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08The Government has been really clear.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11They have said if we have groups that foment hatred or
0:05:11 > 0:05:15that are contrary to the public good or public safety,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17they will take steps to ban them.
0:05:17 > 0:05:18EDL! EDL!
0:05:18 > 0:05:20So in October 2012,
0:05:20 > 0:05:24when Tommy was held on remand in prison his critics were delighted.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27They believed it would weaken the EDL.
0:05:27 > 0:05:29Alone for three months in a cell,
0:05:29 > 0:05:33Tommy began to face up to the real motives of some EDL supporters.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35I have battled for four years to keep certain elements
0:05:35 > 0:05:37out of this movement, to keep
0:05:37 > 0:05:40it down the path we want to take it down, and I have seen they have been
0:05:40 > 0:05:43welcomed back. They are the Nazis and the fascists who were welcomed back.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Despite this, Tommy continued to lead the EDL and on May 25th,
0:05:47 > 0:05:52Tommy and Mo began their journey together at a rally in Newcastle.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Thousands of EDL supporters from all over Britain were out in force.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59For Mo Ansar, attending an EDL rally was a very big first step to take.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02He was putting himself in real danger.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04In a democracy when you are angry and frustrated, you protest,
0:06:04 > 0:06:05don't you?
0:06:05 > 0:06:08You just vent your frustration in a democracy by using
0:06:08 > 0:06:12freedom of assembly, which is what we will be doing today.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13If an Englishman commits a crime...
0:06:13 > 0:06:17If an Englishman on the march today throws a bottle at the police
0:06:17 > 0:06:20or commits a crime or gives a Nazi salute...
0:06:20 > 0:06:21That won't happen.
0:06:21 > 0:06:27You have said yourself, there is a lot of strange types in the EDL, OK?
0:06:27 > 0:06:30Not as many strange types as in Islam.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33And if somebody commits a crime today, is it right for us
0:06:33 > 0:06:35to blame all English people? Is it right?
0:06:35 > 0:06:37It is just a yes or no question, is it right?
0:06:37 > 0:06:38If the people pick up a book
0:06:38 > 0:06:41and it says throw a bottle at the police officer, when they throw
0:06:41 > 0:06:44the bottle at the police officer, of course it is that book's fault.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46Do you accept that you are adding to a fear
0:06:46 > 0:06:48and hysteria, which is causing attacks on Muslims?
0:06:48 > 0:06:50No, I don't, I don't.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53On police advice, Mo had to watch from a safe vantage point.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55It's frightening scenes outside. Horrifying.
0:06:55 > 0:07:00Thousands and thousands of nationalists, angry,
0:07:00 > 0:07:05many of them will be drunk, violent, waving flags, hostile, it is
0:07:05 > 0:07:09so hostile, it is not safe for me to be out there.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14I don't care what you term racist! I don't care what you say to me!
0:07:14 > 0:07:17I don't care if you want to kill me, we don't care whatever you say!
0:07:17 > 0:07:21We are going to continue to fight it no matter what.
0:07:21 > 0:07:26We will defeat Islamism or we will die trying!
0:07:26 > 0:07:28Despite the doubts Tommy is now feeling privately
0:07:28 > 0:07:32about his more extreme followers, his public face remains hard line.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34And he is talking to them about
0:07:34 > 0:07:38no more mosques, about stopping immigration, about hardening
0:07:38 > 0:07:44in every way their response towards Muslims in this country.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48But a more tolerant message, against violence and racism, is there too.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51This is not about colour, this is not about race,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54this is about an ideology. Now, to defeat this ideology
0:07:54 > 0:07:57you won't beat it with punches, kicks, bombs or bullets,
0:07:57 > 0:08:00you need to win the hearts and minds of the people
0:08:00 > 0:08:02and we're winning the hearts and minds of the people.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05CHEERING Through non-violent peaceful protest,
0:08:05 > 0:08:08we will win the hearts and minds of the people of this country.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10Everyone is welcome in the English Defence League,
0:08:10 > 0:08:13all colours and races. God bless.
0:08:13 > 0:08:14CHEERING
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Despite Tommy's appeal for a more inclusive membership,
0:08:19 > 0:08:22Mo is still shocked by scenes of violence at the rally.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Mo asked Tommy for a chance to talk to EDL members directly.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29No Muslim had ever asked to address them before.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Tommy set up a meeting in Luton, where it all began.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36Mo offered to answer questions about Islam as a religion
0:08:36 > 0:08:40and he hopes this will allay their fears about the growing number of British Muslims.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43The people who gathered to hear him needed a lot of convincing,
0:08:43 > 0:08:47including Kevin Carroll, Tommy's cousin and right-hand man.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50"Islam is a religion of peace," you know,
0:08:50 > 0:08:52which is the biggest joke of all, really.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54You can't implement a 7th-century dogma
0:08:54 > 0:08:58into 21st-century western Britain, can't do it.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02This country has formed a democracy
0:09:02 > 0:09:06and I don't want to revert 1,000 years back to medieval times.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09So I'd like to see how he addresses that question.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12Not all Muslims are terrorists, we know that's true,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15but all the terrorists at the moment are Muslim,
0:09:15 > 0:09:16so what does that say to you?
0:09:18 > 0:09:23It's an opportunity for him to see that we're not all lunatics.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25It is an opportunity to talk to him, to ask him questions.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28I've been spending quite a bit of time with him.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I like him, but I don't like the ideology he's following,
0:09:31 > 0:09:33so I try to separate the two of them.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37All right, Mo. Evening, Tommy. I'm all right, you? Good, good.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39I respect the fact that you are the first Muslim
0:09:39 > 0:09:41that's come in to talk with the English Defence League.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Which is getting somewhere, to listen to people's concerns.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I want you to realise when you meet them, these people don't hate you,
0:09:47 > 0:09:50but they are ordinary people who have concerns and fears
0:09:50 > 0:09:52about what's happening to their country.
0:09:52 > 0:09:53I'm very happy to come here tonight.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56I think the most important thing is to open up a dialogue.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59This is Mohammed Ansar, everybody. Say hello. Hello. Hi.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01I used to be of the strong view
0:10:01 > 0:10:04that I thought the English Defence League should be banned.
0:10:04 > 0:10:05Over the last couple of years,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07I've seen that the EDL have grown in strength,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10have grown in numbers and are getting a lot of popular support now
0:10:10 > 0:10:14and so it is up to public figures, people like me,
0:10:14 > 0:10:16I think also the Government, to engage in what you have to say.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19As somebody who was born in this country and is British,
0:10:19 > 0:10:23I think I uphold British values. I am also a Muslim.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25Islam is not here to take over the country,
0:10:25 > 0:10:27Islam is not here to take over the world.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29That is not the Islam that I know.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32The Islam that I know is one that lives in co-existence,
0:10:32 > 0:10:35one that honours and respects British virtues and values.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Does anyone recognise the Islam that Mo is talking about?
0:10:38 > 0:10:40No. No. Here's the problem.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43Living somewhere like Luton, you are not the face of Islam.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47First, concerns about daughters who have married into Muslim families.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50We know girls that convert to Islam. It's not the sort of thing we see.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53Girls convert and they're not allowed to see their mums and dads.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55If there are girls who convert to Islam that are told,
0:10:55 > 0:10:58"You cannot meet your family..." Can't be trusted. I know loads of girls.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00If that happens, then I will say now clearly,
0:11:00 > 0:11:02that is not allowed in Islam.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04If the Islamic community want to integrate,
0:11:04 > 0:11:06why do you punish your children
0:11:06 > 0:11:08if they go with somebody from a different religion?
0:11:08 > 0:11:11If we think all Muslims are one monolithic block, if we think that
0:11:11 > 0:11:14when one Muslim does something wrong that reflects on all the community,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Muslims are not one tribe,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19they are not one group of people who think the same,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22they think differently, they act differently.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25So you can't defend Islam, then? Well, Islam and Muslims are two...
0:11:25 > 0:11:27You can defend YOUR Islam, but nobody else's.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30But Islam and Muslims are two separate things.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32I can't look at the actions of a Christian priest
0:11:32 > 0:11:34and condemn all of Christianity for it.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38And for some, the treatment of gay men in many Islamic countries
0:11:38 > 0:11:39was a real concern.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41Why is Islam really homophobic?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44I've been working for gay rights for the last 15 years,
0:11:44 > 0:11:46a lot of people are surprised by that.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48One thing Islam regards is equality
0:11:48 > 0:11:52and a verse of the Koran says, "Ta'AAlaw ilaa kalimatin sawaaim baynanaa wa baynakum."
0:11:52 > 0:11:54It's not some kind of a magic spell.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56What it says is, "Come to common terms between us and you."
0:11:56 > 0:12:00I've got on my shirt five gay Iranians getting hung for being gay.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03There's been... I've got that on my shirt.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06Right, and I... "Gay rights under Islam." Right, and I applaud that.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09If you're saying homophobia's wrong, Islamic scripture must be wrong
0:12:09 > 0:12:12because it promotes homophobia. Islam is not homophobic.
0:12:12 > 0:12:13LAUGHTER
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Would you guys mind if I took a brief break?
0:12:16 > 0:12:19The meeting adjourned to allow Mo to pray.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Mo was pleased. The meeting felt like a good first step.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Not all the audience agreed with him
0:12:25 > 0:12:27but he was relieved they had listened to each other.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29They were calm, they were listening.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31They were very passionate. They had strongly held views
0:12:31 > 0:12:34and I think it is the kind of thing we need to do more and more
0:12:34 > 0:12:36as that conversation could have gone on for weeks.
0:12:36 > 0:12:37I think that went good.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40I hope it's changed Mo's perception,
0:12:40 > 0:12:44I hope it showed Mo that people have got concerns.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47I always felt... I didn't want Mo to come here and feel like
0:12:47 > 0:12:49he was in any way picked on because the problem is,
0:12:49 > 0:12:53Mo is the first person that's come to talk to the English Defence League.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55But others weren't so positive.
0:12:55 > 0:13:01He speaks for HIS attitude towards Islam, not what Islam is.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03And, as you've heard from the other guys,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06they live with the actual Islam.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08He's just pandering to the audience,
0:13:08 > 0:13:12saying the things that he knows the audience are going to...
0:13:12 > 0:13:14And he thinks we're all dimwits, we don't read.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18It was Ramadan, so Mo was not able to eat between sunrise and sunset.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21Tommy offers to keep him company. How long since you last ate?
0:13:21 > 0:13:25You don't look like a man who ain't eaten in 16 hours, Mo!
0:13:25 > 0:13:272.30 in the morning,
0:13:27 > 0:13:31and now it's nearly 9.20, so I am going to have a date,
0:13:31 > 0:13:34then we'll unpack the goodies and see what food we've got.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36I think it's a nice sign for us to be able to come together
0:13:36 > 0:13:39to share me breaking the fast, if that's OK with you?
0:13:39 > 0:13:42I would love to break the fast with you cos I am actually starving
0:13:42 > 0:13:48but if we ate somewhere down the road that done Halal, non-Halal,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51then it'd be more suitable for me. OK, all right.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53I apologise this time, but maybe next time. Maybe next time.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56Despite not breaking bread with Mo, Tommy sums up their meeting
0:13:56 > 0:13:58in a light that would surprise his critics
0:13:58 > 0:14:00and even some of the supporters of the EDL.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03No-one from the English Defence League would care
0:14:03 > 0:14:05about a Muslim living their life peacefully, praying,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08doing his Ramadan, doing this, doing that, if we didn't see all the hate,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10and we didn't see our culture under attack,
0:14:10 > 0:14:14we didn't see our existence at threat in this country,
0:14:14 > 0:14:16but we do, and that's what Mo has to understand.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20Tommy has personal reasons for the way he feels.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24His own family lost contact with his cousin 20 years ago.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27This girl had become a victim of an Asian on-street gang.
0:14:27 > 0:14:32She woke up one day in a flat in Bury Park with at least ten men on her.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Yeah? And then she was found naked, running through the streets
0:14:35 > 0:14:38by the call girls, prostitutes on the streets,
0:14:38 > 0:14:40and they took her to the police, who took her home.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Then the family locked her in the room
0:14:43 > 0:14:45because she was going cold turkey.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Then she climbed out the window to get back to them,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50because she needs the drugs, and that's the process.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Now she wears a burka and no-one sees her.
0:14:55 > 0:14:57The recent spate of largely Asian gangs
0:14:57 > 0:15:00convicted of what has been dubbed "on-street grooming" in Rochdale,
0:15:00 > 0:15:04Oxford and Derby has only reinforced Tommy's belief
0:15:04 > 0:15:06that the problem stems from their religion,
0:15:06 > 0:15:08and they're not isolated cases.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12Grooming is most definitely an Islamic problem.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14If you look in this country,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17it is predominately Pakistani Muslim men doing it.
0:15:17 > 0:15:21There is a terrible view in Islam of women,
0:15:21 > 0:15:23especially non-Muslim women.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Mo vehemently disagrees.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28To him, the fact many on-street groomers were also Muslim
0:15:28 > 0:15:30has nothing to do with their crimes.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32Tommy arranged for Mo to meet parents in Blackburn
0:15:32 > 0:15:35whose daughters had been victims of on-street grooming,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38and also to meet professionals working in this field.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41For legal reasons, some identities have been disguised.
0:15:41 > 0:15:46The problem with the Muslim is, with the Muslim grooming, is it is
0:15:46 > 0:15:52all gang grooming, where it seems to be OK to discuss this within
0:15:52 > 0:15:55your family and friends and we will all go out to groom together.
0:15:55 > 0:16:01Why do you think we categorise paedophiles as white
0:16:01 > 0:16:03but we don't look at their religion, but then Asian ones as Muslim,
0:16:03 > 0:16:05and we do look at their religion?
0:16:05 > 0:16:10Because that is how most of the Asian community categorise themselves.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14"We are the Muslim community," you hear them say it all the time.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17And I am only focusing on the Muslim grooming gangs
0:16:17 > 0:16:19because you are here today to discuss that.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24You are not here to discuss the whole problem with paedophilia and grooming.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26I'm from WAG - Women Against Grooming.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28I have seen a lot of what Islam does...
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Sorry, how does Islam do that?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Because the men in that family are using Islam as an excuse to
0:16:33 > 0:16:37treat their females in their family like that and that is wrong.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39And that's the excuse they always go back to -
0:16:39 > 0:16:41"Within our religion, this is what we can do."
0:16:41 > 0:16:46I am really, really sick of being told that it doesn't happen
0:16:46 > 0:16:48within a Muslim community, because it does.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51I accept that we have white men disgustingly going round
0:16:51 > 0:16:55grooming little girls that aren't old enough properly to think,
0:16:55 > 0:16:56never mind have sex.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00But until people in the Muslim community are prepared to say,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03"Hang on a minute, this is happening, this does need stopping..."
0:17:03 > 0:17:07The problem is across the country, across all communities... It is.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10..and if we are going to focus on the problems within
0:17:10 > 0:17:15the 3.5 million Muslim community in this country, then we also need to
0:17:15 > 0:17:20focus on the other 60 million people who are not in the Muslim community.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24Of course we do. Because we are... We want to be one community,
0:17:24 > 0:17:27one nation, who are tackling these issues together,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29cos they are common issues, they are common problems.
0:17:32 > 0:17:36Mo then travelled to meet Tommy across the Pennines, in Bradford,
0:17:36 > 0:17:40to talk with others involved in tackling on street grooming.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44I think Tommy has a very clear view that this kind of abuse
0:17:44 > 0:17:49of children or sex crimes are related to the Muslim community.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53And he believes it goes all the way back to the time of Prophet Mohammed.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Two people who risked their reputations to speak out
0:17:57 > 0:18:02about Asian on-street grooming were persuaded to talk to Tommy and Mo.
0:18:02 > 0:18:05Mohammed Shafiq heads a Muslim youth organisation.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07Ann Cryer was Labour MP for Keighley.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12Ann tried to help many families whose daughters were
0:18:12 > 0:18:15victims of Asian on-street grooming.
0:18:15 > 0:18:19Their daughters were 12 and 13-year-olds,
0:18:19 > 0:18:25and all of those offenders who were corrupting these girls
0:18:25 > 0:18:29were from, I'm afraid, the Pakistani community.
0:18:29 > 0:18:32And the reason that I believe - I may be wrong -
0:18:32 > 0:18:35but I believe the reason that neither the police nor social
0:18:35 > 0:18:40services would touch these cases... I was begging them.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42I was round at the police station virtually every week when I came up
0:18:42 > 0:18:47to Keighley, and I think it was they were afraid of being called racist.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51There is a significant over-representation of Pakistani men
0:18:51 > 0:18:58in on-street gang grooming, of which the majority of the girls are white.
0:18:58 > 0:19:03We as a community, if you like, have to be honest and open about that.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06We've all got a duty to... You're saying what we're saying, but you're OK to say it.
0:19:06 > 0:19:07But the difference is, you don't...
0:19:07 > 0:19:11You're a heroic moderate for saying it, I'm a far-right hooligan.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15Ann Cryer tried but failed to get her local mosque to talk to suspects' families.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19I went to a friend of mine who is a local councillor, and he happened
0:19:19 > 0:19:23to be a Muslim, and therefore he was able to represent me to the elders,
0:19:23 > 0:19:29because I felt it was a good move to try and get those elders involved.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33Yeah, it was a good move. I hoped that I would be able to persuade the elders to go
0:19:33 > 0:19:37knocking on doors and say to them, "This behaviour is
0:19:37 > 0:19:40"un-Islamic and I want it to stop, because I am going to
0:19:40 > 0:19:44"tell the whole community about you and what you're doing if you don't."
0:19:44 > 0:19:46Now, they weren't prepared to do that.
0:19:46 > 0:19:50Acknowledging the problem with the community's response to the crimes is one thing,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54introducing a possible reason linked their faith is quite another.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58There is a possibility for me that this is linked to Islam.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Maybe it is not, but maybe it is. When you have in the Koran...
0:20:01 > 0:20:04How can you say it is linked to Islam? On what basis?
0:20:04 > 0:20:05What is your evidence? OK.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08The Koran, you can take sexual slaves... I mean... You can take sexual slaves.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12Read it to me, where it says you can take non-Muslim
0:20:12 > 0:20:14women as sexual slaves. OK, I will.
0:20:14 > 0:20:15I don't think you can find it.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18MO: It is nice to see you are reading the Koran, I have to say.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22It is obviously not making a difference, is it? You're still distorting it
0:20:22 > 0:20:24No, I am not distorting it, I am reading it.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26"If you fear you will not deal justly with the orphan girls,
0:20:26 > 0:20:30"then marry those that please you of other women, two, three or four.
0:20:30 > 0:20:32"If you fear that will not be just,
0:20:32 > 0:20:36"then take what your right arm possesses, ie, slaves."
0:20:36 > 0:20:39Where does it say "sexual slaves"? Slaves, you can take....
0:20:39 > 0:20:43Where does it say sexual slaves? Where does it say sexual slaves? Don't distort it!
0:20:43 > 0:20:44Maybe it's not me misrepresenting it,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46maybe it's the groomers misrepresenting this!
0:20:46 > 0:20:49Would we all agree that these girls who are being
0:20:49 > 0:20:52targeted by these gangs are slaves, being treated like slaves? Oh!
0:20:52 > 0:20:54Can we agree?
0:20:54 > 0:20:57I think that is a very unhelpful way of tackling the issue.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01They are being treated like slaves and we have chapters in here that tells them it is OK to take
0:21:01 > 0:21:05non-Muslim women as slaves, and to me that needs to be explored. Tommy...
0:21:05 > 0:21:07That is not right. It says slaves.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09Only a few weeks ago,
0:21:09 > 0:21:14we saw imams, over 500 mosques, deliver a sermon against grooming.
0:21:14 > 0:21:15That's good.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19In 2002, when it started, when you dealt with that very first case here
0:21:19 > 0:21:22in Keighley, they got four years. Now they are getting life sentences.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Do you think it has got anything to do with the ideology behind
0:21:25 > 0:21:30the fact that under sharia, as soon as a girl starts puberty, she is fair game, yeah? No.
0:21:30 > 0:21:31Absolutely not. Yes, it is!
0:21:31 > 0:21:37A Muslim man, for example, cannot have sex outside of marriage,
0:21:37 > 0:21:42cannot marry somebody who is not a consenting adult, and can certainly
0:21:42 > 0:21:47not commit any of these offences. Islam is utterly, utterly against
0:21:47 > 0:21:51grooming, child abuse, any form of abuse against any individual.
0:21:51 > 0:21:56Like Tommy, Ann thinks the Muslim community could have done
0:21:56 > 0:21:58much more to tackle the groomers.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04To Mo, Tommy continually tries to unfairly blame
0:22:04 > 0:22:06the religion of Islam for criminal acts.
0:22:06 > 0:22:10Tommy has tried to create a link between some theological
0:22:10 > 0:22:14aspects and linking them with paedophilia. And that is wrong.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16Whatever sources he is using, they are deeply flawed.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20To Tommy, the sacred texts seem to provide an excuse.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22Everybody wants to shout down my points
0:22:22 > 0:22:24but they can't tackle the points.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27It says in the Koran that you can take non-Muslim women as slaves.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29What do they do with slaves?
0:22:29 > 0:22:32If it's in there, we must explore that avenue.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35A meeting was set up in London at the end of August with two
0:22:35 > 0:22:37experts on the Koran.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40This is the first time Tommy would meet someone from Quilliam,
0:22:40 > 0:22:42a counter-extremism think tank.
0:22:42 > 0:22:47Dr Usama Hasan, from Quilliam, is a scientist and Islamic scholar,
0:22:47 > 0:22:50whilst historian Tom Holland has written ground-breaking
0:22:50 > 0:22:51books on the birth of Islam.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Tommy used this opportunity to go straight
0:22:54 > 0:22:57to his belief that it is Islamic texts
0:22:57 > 0:23:00that are to blame for gang abuse of young girls.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03Outside of your four wives, "you can take whatever your right arm possesses".
0:23:03 > 0:23:07Now how do we understand that? That will refer to slavery.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10Concubines. Concubine, which included sexual slavery. Now that was part of ancient culture.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13Tommy's delighted they seem to agree with his position.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16All the dos and don'ts in the Koran are all conditioned
0:23:16 > 0:23:18by principles of justice, mercy, the common good,
0:23:18 > 0:23:21public welfare, etc, and they are all actually liable to change.
0:23:21 > 0:23:27Islam does face a problem in that the holy scriptures derive from
0:23:27 > 0:23:33a very remote period. The Koran, the Hadiths, classical jurisprudence
0:23:33 > 0:23:35take for granted the existence of slavery.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39In their time. Absolutely but there is then the problem
0:23:39 > 0:23:45in a society that takes for granted that slavery is wrong,
0:23:45 > 0:23:49how do you then square that with the fact in the Bible, in the Koran,
0:23:49 > 0:23:51slavery seems to be taken for granted?
0:23:51 > 0:23:54Why does God not issue a firm prohibition?
0:23:54 > 0:23:56The situation is very similar to women actually,
0:23:56 > 0:24:00if you read the Koran now, some of the verses relating to women
0:24:00 > 0:24:02seem to discriminate against women.
0:24:02 > 0:24:03But for that time,
0:24:03 > 0:24:07they actually were revolutionary and they really improved women's rights.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10It needs to be continued. Which is precisely why I think it's vital
0:24:10 > 0:24:12to historicise the Koran... Yes.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14..and to work out where these commentaries come from,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16to situate them in a particular place and time.
0:24:16 > 0:24:20Again, Tommy feels the learned men are expressing what he thinks too
0:24:20 > 0:24:21but Mo doesn't.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25Maybe what's going on here is that the core principles within the Koran,
0:24:25 > 0:24:28the principles of brotherhood and of justice,
0:24:28 > 0:24:30they predominate, they are eternal.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33Maybe the specific things - the details about slavery,
0:24:33 > 0:24:38the commands within some of the hadiths to kill apostates,
0:24:38 > 0:24:40to kill homosexuals,
0:24:40 > 0:24:41they are the ones that can be phased out
0:24:41 > 0:24:43because humanity has moved on.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47That seems to me the way ahead for a British form of Islam to emerge.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49I believe that we need to reform the book.
0:24:49 > 0:24:50And certain verses of hate
0:24:50 > 0:24:53and certain verses that glorify murder and rape
0:24:53 > 0:24:57need to be taken out, or addressed, or warnings put in,
0:24:57 > 0:25:00or something to say that this is no longer taught in British Islam.
0:25:00 > 0:25:04If one of my children came home with a schoolbook,
0:25:04 > 0:25:05a reading book from school,
0:25:05 > 0:25:08and they were unable to read or understand parts of the book,
0:25:08 > 0:25:10I don't rip out the pages and put them to one side.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12I'd say, "Let's educate better."
0:25:12 > 0:25:13People are dying, Mo, people are dying.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16It's not like when your daughter comes home with a schoolbook.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19I agree with you that Muslims in this country
0:25:19 > 0:25:21certainly have to step up the efforts
0:25:21 > 0:25:23against the extremists and the reformers.
0:25:23 > 0:25:24That is something I've tried to do
0:25:24 > 0:25:26and colleagues of mine have tried to do.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28We've faced death threats and intimidation
0:25:28 > 0:25:30for what we are saying, also.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33And that does need to be addressed, you know? How we... How...
0:25:33 > 0:25:36We're looking, by the way, at a very small number of verses
0:25:36 > 0:25:38which are what you might call "problematic", in our times.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41The vast majority of the Koran is about the wonders of God,
0:25:41 > 0:25:42about the wonders of creation.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44I believe that there needs to be immense pressure
0:25:44 > 0:25:47put on the Islamic community of this country
0:25:47 > 0:25:48to realise how we feel in our country.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50You need to make the distinction
0:25:50 > 0:25:52between Muslims that need reformation
0:25:52 > 0:25:55and Islam as a theology and Islam as a way of life
0:25:55 > 0:25:58and a value system, which I don't think does need reform.
0:25:58 > 0:26:00TOM: That's where I think I disagree.
0:26:00 > 0:26:01Because I think that Islam,
0:26:01 > 0:26:05like any institutionalised religion in this country,
0:26:05 > 0:26:07is subject to incredible pressures.
0:26:07 > 0:26:11And those pressures are partly to do with historical research.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13It changed the way Christians understand their faith.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16I'm sure it will change the way Muslims understand their faith -
0:26:16 > 0:26:19the impact of science, an increased understanding of the universe.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22And above all, people of all religions in Britain
0:26:22 > 0:26:24are now living in an incredibly liberal society
0:26:24 > 0:26:26and there's been an absolute revolution
0:26:26 > 0:26:28in the understanding of, say, the status of women,
0:26:28 > 0:26:30the status of homosexuality.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34I have no doubt that the form of Islam that emerges from this,
0:26:34 > 0:26:36it's kind of weathering waves beating against it,
0:26:36 > 0:26:41will be a much less literalist, a much less fundamentalist Islam.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44MO: I speak often about an enlightened, progressive,
0:26:44 > 0:26:49modern British context for Islam and I think we are on that journey.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51We're certainly not there, we're on that journey.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54Tommy's in a hurry for us to get there quickly...
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Hurry up, lads. ..but I think we have... Sort it out. These things take time.
0:26:57 > 0:26:58These things take time.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Tommy now held Usama Hasan in great esteem.
0:27:01 > 0:27:02He seems like a good guy.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05I was doing a lot of reading on him - really outspoken against extremism.
0:27:05 > 0:27:07I want them to bring their ideology forward,
0:27:07 > 0:27:11and I keep saying it's not down to us to define a British Islam,
0:27:11 > 0:27:14it's down to them. It's down to the Muslims in this country.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18Yet just a week later, Tommy is back on the streets,
0:27:18 > 0:27:21leading an EDL march into one of London's most Muslim areas -
0:27:21 > 0:27:23Tower Hamlets.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27There is no such thing in this country as a Muslim area.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31CHEERING AND APPLAUSE There is no such thing.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33The rhetoric was anti-Muslim and there was no sign
0:27:33 > 0:27:36he had any doubts about the power of on-street protest,
0:27:36 > 0:27:38as he later claimed.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Do I want to come out of here and keep shouting on street corners?
0:27:41 > 0:27:42And "us and them" and kicking off?
0:27:42 > 0:27:43It's not what I want.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46I want what is right for my kids and what's right for everyone's kids
0:27:46 > 0:27:48and that is to bring dialogue.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50I'm not saying we're going to agree on everything,
0:27:50 > 0:27:52but this is about working out. This is a slow process.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56But it's about sitting down and working out where we go from here.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Islam is one of the few religions
0:27:58 > 0:28:01whose followers may be clearly recognised by what they wear.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04And in recent years, more British Muslims have felt free
0:28:04 > 0:28:06to present themselves in ways abandoned by their parents
0:28:06 > 0:28:09when they came to Britain a generation or two ago.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12As Muslims have come here and become more educated,
0:28:12 > 0:28:14the younger generation starts asking questions -
0:28:14 > 0:28:17"Who am I? What am I about? Where do I come from?
0:28:17 > 0:28:19"What do I believe?"
0:28:19 > 0:28:21And so maybe 20 or 30 years ago,
0:28:21 > 0:28:24we would have seen fewer beards and fewer headscarves.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26But increasingly, as Muslims feel closer
0:28:26 > 0:28:28and stronger in their identity,
0:28:28 > 0:28:30I think people like Tommy have seen that
0:28:30 > 0:28:31and have become scared.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34And it's nothing to be scared of, the world's a big place.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Muslims see wearing these clothes as self-expression.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39But some critics, including Tommy,
0:28:39 > 0:28:42see it as Islamic repression, especially of women.
0:28:42 > 0:28:46Only last month, a student petition with 8,000 signatures
0:28:46 > 0:28:47forced Birmingham Metropolitan College
0:28:47 > 0:28:50to lift its ban on face veils.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52And in London, a row erupted when a judge ruled
0:28:52 > 0:28:56a female defendant had to remove her veil when giving evidence.
0:28:56 > 0:29:00So Mo has arranged for Tommy to meet a leading female Muslim politician,
0:29:00 > 0:29:03the former leader of the Respect Party, Salma Yaqoob,
0:29:03 > 0:29:05to discuss the issue of dress.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07Is it a religious need to wear a burqa?
0:29:07 > 0:29:08There's an emphasis on modesty
0:29:08 > 0:29:11but people interpret that in many different ways.
0:29:11 > 0:29:12You can see for yourself.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14Some Muslim women cover their hair, some don't.
0:29:14 > 0:29:15Some cover their face, most don't.
0:29:15 > 0:29:17It is a tiny minority who do.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20I personally don't, as you can see,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23but I would not want to impose my views on anybody else.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26I think the vast majority of people in this country
0:29:26 > 0:29:27would want the burqa banned.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30There could be anybody under that burqa, walking down the street.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32What's the point in having CCTV?
0:29:32 > 0:29:33The burqa is a security risk.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35Again, I think you're very good at this,
0:29:35 > 0:29:40in terms of trying to smear and merge two very different issues.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43I believe that women should be allowed to cover what they want.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46I believe that women should be allowed to not cover what they want.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48It shouldn't be up to men or a state.
0:29:48 > 0:29:50Why do Muslim women cover their hair?
0:29:50 > 0:29:53It's the same in the Judaeo-Christian tradition
0:29:53 > 0:29:56where there's been an encouragement of modesty.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57And so it's seen as that.
0:29:57 > 0:30:02Statues of Mary, you'll see that she's covered from head to toe.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04I wear a wedding ring. It's a signal.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06And that's what the hijab is about.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10It's saying that I don't interact beyond a certain boundary
0:30:10 > 0:30:13when I mix with other guys.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17When you say it's for modesty and not to feel, sorry, to let men know
0:30:17 > 0:30:19and things like that - I get all that, yeah.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22But when we have seven-year-old children wearing hijabs,
0:30:22 > 0:30:23that's when I'm like,
0:30:23 > 0:30:26"Well, what's the reason why she's covering her hair, then?"
0:30:26 > 0:30:28Don't parents have the right to bring their children up
0:30:28 > 0:30:29in their religious tradition?
0:30:29 > 0:30:31Many Muslim women, that I speak to, say...
0:30:31 > 0:30:34And my wife will say the same and my daughters,
0:30:34 > 0:30:36who sometimes wear it, sometimes don't.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39..they cover their hair, not only as a sign of modesty
0:30:39 > 0:30:41but also they want to identify themselves.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43It's part of their identity.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45I mean, I, as a Muslim women,
0:30:45 > 0:30:48feel uncomfortable when I see young girls.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52You know, even, if they're seven. I see so many of them.
0:30:52 > 0:30:56Because I do think it's about being grown-up, right. Yeah, so do I.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58And so, that for me is about parenting.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01And you can see there'll be different views amongst parents,
0:31:01 > 0:31:03how they do things.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06To Mo, dress is about displaying your faith.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09To Salma, it's a choice about modesty for grown women.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12For Tommy, accepting Salma's view is a big step.
0:31:12 > 0:31:16At this moment, to the outside world Tommy is defined
0:31:16 > 0:31:19as the leader of the street-fighting, Islamophobic EDL.
0:31:19 > 0:31:24But privately, he is visiting the Aisha Mosque in Walsall with Mo.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27A few months earlier, it was attacked with a home-made bomb
0:31:27 > 0:31:30and initially the EDL was blamed.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33It was quickly proved that there was no link to the EDL.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36This is the first time Tommy has ever entered a mosque.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40To some of his followers, this would be unthinkable and Tommy too
0:31:40 > 0:31:43still has misgivings about the role of mosques in Britain.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47I think a mosque is a command and control centre,
0:31:47 > 0:31:49I think the last thing they do in there is pray.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51I don't want any more mosques built
0:31:51 > 0:31:53because I believe we are adding to the problem.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56When Islam integrates and assimilates in the same way
0:31:56 > 0:31:57every other ideology and religion has,
0:31:57 > 0:31:59then they can build more mosques.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07We will take our shoes off here and we put them on here
0:32:07 > 0:32:09and then we go through. No problem.
0:32:09 > 0:32:13Mo took Tommy upstairs to watch the afternoon prayers.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16Most of the men below were completely unaware
0:32:16 > 0:32:19the leader of the English Defence League was in their midst.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23Tommy thinks it's wrong that women have to pray in a separate area,
0:32:23 > 0:32:25behind the men.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51Once prayers were over, Mo took Tommy into the musalla,
0:32:51 > 0:32:53or prayer room.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56With no over-seeing body running British Islam,
0:32:56 > 0:33:00Tommy questioned how mosques are able to combat extremist beliefs.
0:33:00 > 0:33:05Say there is a local loony Islamist who is a potential terrorist.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08Say for example, the lads who tried to blow the English Defence League up.
0:33:08 > 0:33:13One of them worked in a mosque, he was the youth leader in a mosque.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15So how come he wasn't spotted?
0:33:15 > 0:33:17If you have a congregation here,
0:33:17 > 0:33:21and the overwhelming majority will regulate what goes on in mosques.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24The committee, the congregation will hear what is said
0:33:24 > 0:33:26and they are very much self-policing.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29Not one mosque has reported one extremist.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35One of Britain's leading Muslim scholars,
0:33:35 > 0:33:37Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra, was keen to meet Tommy.
0:33:37 > 0:33:40He was joined by Imam Shay, who leads this congregation.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43All right, lads. How are you? Doing all right. Nice to meet you.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45Hi, Tommy. Welcome. Nice to meet you.
0:33:45 > 0:33:49This is our Imam. He has a gift for you.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52A present? Religious, cultural.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54I've got one of these you know, from an Islamic outreach centre.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57My daughter is five years old and she come home and said,
0:33:57 > 0:33:59"Mum, do you go to the mosque?"
0:33:59 > 0:34:00MY daughter. "Do you go to the mosque?"
0:34:00 > 0:34:03It's a special place where people pray.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06Personally, I am uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10It's so important for them to learn about Christians, about Jews,
0:34:10 > 0:34:14Hindus, and everybody else, otherwise they will grow up
0:34:14 > 0:34:18not appreciating the good that all these different religions have.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Tommy wanted Shaykh Mogra to explain how British rights
0:34:21 > 0:34:25and values are upheld when they clash with fundamentalist ideas.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29Every mosque I look at, I can go on and I can find a homophobic,
0:34:29 > 0:34:32anti-Semitic preacher who will come into this country and give a sermon.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35And they should be stopped, they should be stopped,
0:34:35 > 0:34:36Do you stand for gay people's rights? Yes.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38You stand for gay marriage?
0:34:38 > 0:34:41If the two individuals who are of
0:34:41 > 0:34:44the same sex want to be married
0:34:44 > 0:34:48and they go for a civil partnership or marriage, whatever it is,
0:34:48 > 0:34:50if it is provided within the constitution,
0:34:50 > 0:34:54within the legal systems of our country, they are entitled to it.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57To be a good Muslim, I first have to be a good human being,
0:34:57 > 0:34:58before anything.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02I disagree with a lot of your views, but I respect you as a human being.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05I cannot harm you, I am not allowed, it's forbidden.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08Well, I wish everyone felt like that because all I get is death threats,
0:35:08 > 0:35:12people want to smash my face in, murder my kids, murder my wife.
0:35:12 > 0:35:16Please don't measure Islam by the behaviour of some.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19Measure Islam by godly, peaceful people.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22There are two million of us in this country.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25There are six million of you in this country.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29OK, six million, but you haven't received six million death threats,
0:35:29 > 0:35:30you might have received...
0:35:30 > 0:35:33To be honest, for every death threat I get I meet a great Muslim.
0:35:33 > 0:35:34When I'm walking around in the town centre,
0:35:34 > 0:35:37I have Muslims come up to me and they're very peaceful.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Tommy is so surprised by Shaykh Mogra's views
0:35:39 > 0:35:41he raises doubts that he's typical.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45I've read articles on yourself today that say you're a non-Muslim.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48Muslims that say, because of your beliefs,
0:35:48 > 0:35:49you are an infidel.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52But God is the judge.
0:35:52 > 0:35:54I am not worried about what people say about me.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57I have to stand before God, and answer for my actions.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01I try my best to be a good human being, to be a good Muslim,
0:36:01 > 0:36:05disagreeing with you but respecting you because you are God's creation.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08Ibrahim Mogra believes extending the hand of friendship to Tommy
0:36:08 > 0:36:10comes directly from Islamic belief.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13The Koran tells me to dialogue with people,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16especially people that I disagree with.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19And it promises that you might be surprised, pleasantly,
0:36:19 > 0:36:21that you turn out to become good friends.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23So we have to talk, we must dialogue.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26We disagree with the views of the EDL,
0:36:26 > 0:36:28I totally oppose their racism
0:36:28 > 0:36:30and their anti-Muslim and anti-Islam stance,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33but that doesn't mean I should shun them.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36It means I should reach out to them and help them understand
0:36:36 > 0:36:40what the real Islam is, and what real Muslims are like.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43And hopefully they will be forced to rethink their strategy.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47Mo and Tommy rounded off their visit in the family area.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50The women had prepared a feast to welcome their guests.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54It smells good. Chicken korma?
0:36:54 > 0:36:57You can go and sit down and have some food. I'm all right.
0:37:06 > 0:37:10Eating their Halal food on camera was still a step too far for Tommy,
0:37:10 > 0:37:12but he's certainly warming to them.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15I feel awkward, not eating.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21Why would I have a problem with those sort of people,
0:37:21 > 0:37:26do you know what I mean? But at the same time,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29we have to keep this country as a Christian country.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32To me, it is being overtaken.
0:37:32 > 0:37:37When does diversity and tolerance become takeover?
0:37:37 > 0:37:39That is what I see.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Early October, and the next stage in Tommy and Mo's journey
0:37:42 > 0:37:45is with Quilliam, a counter-extremism think-tank
0:37:45 > 0:37:49named after one of Britain's first converts to Islam, William Quilliam.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52Maajid Nawaz set it up in 2007.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56Originally Quilliam was funded under Labour's PREVENT strategy,
0:37:56 > 0:37:59a policy deeply resented by many Muslims.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03Maajid had been an Islamist for 13 years,
0:38:03 > 0:38:05and recruited for Hizb-ut-Tahrir,
0:38:05 > 0:38:08campaigners for an Islamic caliphate.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11Imprisoned for political activity in Egypt for five years,
0:38:11 > 0:38:14after his release, he rejected Islamism
0:38:14 > 0:38:17and became a very vocal counter-extremist.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20The EDL and far right extremist groups believe
0:38:20 > 0:38:23there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27They believe that all Muslims who pretend to be moderate
0:38:27 > 0:38:29say one thing in public and another in private.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31Having researched Quilliam,
0:38:31 > 0:38:33Tommy was looking forward to meeting Maajid
0:38:33 > 0:38:35but because he'd been selected to stand for Parliament,
0:38:35 > 0:38:39on the day Maajid refused to sit down with Tommy.
0:38:39 > 0:38:40But he was keen to challenge Mo.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43Maajid revealed the deep divisions between him and Mo
0:38:43 > 0:38:45on how to interpret Sharia law.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48Has there been any evolution in your own thinking
0:38:48 > 0:38:50as a result of your interactions with Tommy?
0:38:50 > 0:38:54I think not particularly. I think I come from a very reasonable place.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57If your views haven't changed then I assume,
0:38:57 > 0:39:02if I may, that your perspective on say, the Koran says...
0:39:02 > 0:39:05HE SPEAKS ARABIC
0:39:05 > 0:39:08"The male and female thief, cut their hands off."
0:39:08 > 0:39:11Would you agree with chopping off someone's hand as a punishment for theft?
0:39:11 > 0:39:14I don't agree with chopping hands off as a punishment for theft.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17If an Islamic state existed, should it chop off someone's hand
0:39:17 > 0:39:19for theft if the Sharia conditions are met?
0:39:19 > 0:39:24Please, yes or no, yes or no, yes or no, answer that? Look...
0:39:24 > 0:39:26I will tell you my answer, no. What's yours?
0:39:26 > 0:39:28On some of my theological views I'm clear,
0:39:28 > 0:39:32on other theological views, I would like to hear what the consensus of
0:39:32 > 0:39:36the scholars would be, and on other theological views I am not made up.
0:39:36 > 0:39:40If one were to ask me on my views on stoning someone to death,
0:39:40 > 0:39:46whether now or in a hypothetical ideal Islamic state,
0:39:46 > 0:39:48I don't think it is morally justifiable to defer the answer
0:39:48 > 0:39:52and say I'm not sure whether someone should be stoned to death or not,
0:39:52 > 0:39:53that is morally reprehensible.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58Hearing how Maajid argued so vehemently against Mo
0:39:58 > 0:40:02about basic human rights was a revelation to Tommy.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04I didn't think a Muslim would confront Mo Ansar, I thought
0:40:04 > 0:40:07Mo Ansar was being built as the acceptable face of Islam
0:40:07 > 0:40:09and that is everything that I think is wrong.
0:40:09 > 0:40:13So when I saw this and read more about Quilliam
0:40:13 > 0:40:17and I looked at what Quilliam has done, they have actually brought change,
0:40:17 > 0:40:22which is what I want to do, I want to tackle Islamist extremism,
0:40:22 > 0:40:23I want to tackle Neo Nazi extremism.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25They are opposite sides of the same coin.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32Straight after Maajid and Mo's heated conversation,
0:40:32 > 0:40:35Tommy and Mo had to meet a group of Muslims at a London club.
0:40:35 > 0:40:37Some were Quilliam staff, including Usama Hasan,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40the Koranic expert, others were from other Muslim organisations.
0:40:40 > 0:40:45All shared concerns about Tommy and the EDL and were keen to know
0:40:45 > 0:40:49whether his journey with Mo had changed him.
0:40:49 > 0:40:53What they heard was a Tommy clearly realising that there were
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Muslims he could reach out to.
0:40:57 > 0:40:59I don't hate Muslims.
0:40:59 > 0:41:03When I look nationally, there are 4 or 5 million Muslims in this country,
0:41:03 > 0:41:05they are not going to pack up and leave tomorrow.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09What we have to reach out for is reformist and true moderate Muslims.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12Nobody is denying your right to protest,
0:41:12 > 0:41:15nobody is denying your right to criticise.
0:41:15 > 0:41:16I think it's just the tactics in
0:41:16 > 0:41:19the way it comes across and there are some
0:41:19 > 0:41:21unsavoury characters within your organisation
0:41:21 > 0:41:24that turn up to protest
0:41:24 > 0:41:25and they have those banners,
0:41:25 > 0:41:28and they have those things and the slogans.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31I have known that deep down for two years,
0:41:31 > 0:41:33thinking, we need to change somehow, we do need to change.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37The assembled Muslims could see this was a big admission for Tommy to make.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39For most of them, this was the first time
0:41:39 > 0:41:41they learned that he harboured any doubts at all.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44We do have, we, the British Muslim communities,
0:41:44 > 0:41:45have a lot of work to do.
0:41:45 > 0:41:48There is no doubt about that. We have a lot of issues that are still being
0:41:48 > 0:41:52brushed under the carpet, some of which you have already spoken about.
0:41:52 > 0:41:54I am part of your culture, I am part of your tradition and I
0:41:54 > 0:41:56absolutely love the country that I live in.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58So I absolutely agree with you, I think
0:41:58 > 0:42:01the Muslim community has not been at the forefront of change.
0:42:01 > 0:42:06We have not honoured the precepts of Islam, which actually have
0:42:06 > 0:42:08so much to do with British culture.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10The problem in this country is extremist Islam
0:42:10 > 0:42:14and the English Defence League are a symptom of that problem.
0:42:14 > 0:42:16The answer is to reform.
0:42:16 > 0:42:18Reform Islam or Muslims
0:42:18 > 0:42:21Both. How do you reform Islam?
0:42:21 > 0:42:22By taking out the hate.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24The Koran should be reformed in the same way the Bible was.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27You are just going to wind up all the Muslims who would have given
0:42:27 > 0:42:31you support, because I have been sitting here for the past hour-and-a-half
0:42:31 > 0:42:34thinking that I agree with so much that you say, but
0:42:34 > 0:42:38then you end with that, reform the Koran, now you have got me furious.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44Tommy has gone too far for some, but not for Dr Hasan from Quilliam.
0:42:44 > 0:42:46I agree that it is Muslims who have to engage in reform.
0:42:46 > 0:42:47I have found through experience
0:42:47 > 0:42:49it is very difficult.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51After serving as an imam for over 25 years,
0:42:51 > 0:42:55when I tried to raise difficult questions at my own mosque,
0:42:55 > 0:42:57I was booted out and received death threats for it.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59The meeting ends on a high.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02There was consensus for change even if not on the methods.
0:43:02 > 0:43:06Mo is keen to reflect on the changes he has experienced
0:43:06 > 0:43:08since he began his journey with Tommy.
0:43:08 > 0:43:11I think Tommy has opened my eyes to a number of things, I think
0:43:11 > 0:43:17the first of those things is there is a lot of genuine fear, hostility,
0:43:17 > 0:43:22frustration and anger, amongst the white non-Muslim majority within
0:43:22 > 0:43:26this country and they have real questions which we have to address.
0:43:26 > 0:43:30And the day with Quilliam had even more of an impact on Tommy.
0:43:30 > 0:43:35To be honest, some of the lads, I have read a lot about Quilliam,
0:43:35 > 0:43:39massively impressed, and although your man Maajid didn't want
0:43:39 > 0:43:46to sit and talk to me, they are the Muslims I see as shaping the future
0:43:46 > 0:43:49for Islam in Britain. We just have to look at it realistically.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52Muslims are not going to leave Britain, they are here, so we have to
0:43:52 > 0:43:55make the best of the situation and the best of the situation is finding
0:43:55 > 0:43:58the really good ones and the really moderate ones and pushing them
0:43:58 > 0:44:01to the forefront and making sure they are the ones that are heard.
0:44:02 > 0:44:04Away from the cameras, Tommy reached out to Maajid.
0:44:04 > 0:44:05In a series of telephone calls
0:44:05 > 0:44:09and secret meetings they began to believe they could work together.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11So then they discussed the unthinkable.
0:44:11 > 0:44:14Tommy to quit the EDL and work with Quilliam.
0:44:14 > 0:44:18Maajid knew from his own experience of leaving Hizb-ut-Tehrir,
0:44:18 > 0:44:20that this was a very difficult decision for Tommy.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24This isn't about publicity. Both of us have sacrificed to be in this position but both of us
0:44:24 > 0:44:30passionately believe in an inclusive united Britain where Muslims
0:44:30 > 0:44:32and non Muslims can all live together in peace and harmony.
0:44:32 > 0:44:37One week later, the world's media assembled in Bloomsbury to question
0:44:37 > 0:44:40him about why he was leaving the EDL to join forces with a leading Muslim
0:44:40 > 0:44:44think-tank. Mo, having seen the announcement on Twitter,
0:44:44 > 0:44:48cancelled everything and hurried up from Hampshire to be there too.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51Naturally there are going to be lot of people who will be
0:44:51 > 0:44:53sceptical about Quilliam and Tommy working together.
0:44:53 > 0:44:57Only recently we've seen Tommy's behaviour has been less than noble
0:44:57 > 0:45:00and there are going to be questions raised about
0:45:00 > 0:45:02if this is a tactical move.
0:45:02 > 0:45:07Is this a cynical ploy to put himself forward
0:45:07 > 0:45:10in the eyes of the public or is this a genuine attempt?
0:45:10 > 0:45:12But Mo was kept waiting.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15We are allowing nobody in till six o'clock, sorry.
0:45:15 > 0:45:20And once he'd gained access with the crew, all were thrown out.
0:45:20 > 0:45:21Tommy texted to explain.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24He did not want Mo claiming any credit for this momentous decision.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27I am really disappointed with how things have turned out.
0:45:27 > 0:45:29I have spent 18 months talking to Tommy
0:45:29 > 0:45:32and going on a journey to learn about Islam, to extend a hand
0:45:32 > 0:45:37and I thought it was important to develop a dialogue.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41Part of asking the English Defence League to put down their hate and prejudice
0:45:41 > 0:45:45was about having dialogue and today it has fallen flat on its face.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48And Mo wasn't the only one to feel rejected by Tommy.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50In South London, a group of EDL organisers
0:45:50 > 0:45:52and supporters gathered over a drink.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55One was unwilling to show his face.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57People are just so stunned.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00Totally betrayed, totally betrayed, I felt like someone had
0:46:00 > 0:46:02ripped my heart out today and that is being serious.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05We have been close to Tommy the last nine months.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08I just couldn't believe it.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11I am quite surprised they chose Quilliam - bearing in mind
0:46:11 > 0:46:14Quilliam's history and the people behind Quilliam - which are Islamic
0:46:14 > 0:46:16extremists themselves.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19Tommy's choices of walking away
0:46:19 > 0:46:24and getting back into mainstream life are very limited.
0:46:24 > 0:46:28He's always going to be known as Tommy Robinson the guy that run the EDL.
0:46:28 > 0:46:30The EDL will carry on as it is.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33Only two down, isn't it? Tommy and Kevin Carroll were only the face of the EDL.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36The people out on streets are the EDL, not Tommy and Kevin Carroll.
0:46:36 > 0:46:41Seven years ago, Maajid Nawaz turned away from Islamic extremism, founded
0:46:41 > 0:46:44Quilliam and built it into a respected organisation.
0:46:44 > 0:46:48Tommy has now chosen to follow a similar path, to reject the often
0:46:48 > 0:46:52violent actions of some EDL supporters and to work with Quilliam
0:46:52 > 0:46:56on a new way to tackle what he sees is an Islamist problem in Britain.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59Both Tommy and Maajid know it's a risk for them personally
0:46:59 > 0:47:01and for what they believe in.
0:47:01 > 0:47:06Only time will tell how successful this is, but I genuinely hope this will work out.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09For me last night, it was either the end
0:47:09 > 0:47:13and everything is going to come crashing down around me, or it
0:47:13 > 0:47:17was the beginning of a new era. And I am positive and I believe this is
0:47:17 > 0:47:23definitely a step forward, I believe it is beneficial for all communities
0:47:23 > 0:47:28and I believe there is nothing more powerful than working together.
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