0:00:02 > 0:00:06In 1920, the leader of an obscure German political party
0:00:06 > 0:00:10made what seemed at the time an insignificant decision.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Adolf Hitler adopted a symbol
0:00:16 > 0:00:19for his National Democratic Socialist Party.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24It was a symbol which, over the next two decades,
0:00:24 > 0:00:27would become synonymous with hatred, fear,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30and a regime that slaughtered millions.
0:00:32 > 0:00:33The swastika.
0:00:34 > 0:00:41The swastika means Nazism. It means evil, death and genocide.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46In Auschwitz, it was an emblem that I hated
0:00:46 > 0:00:50and I didn't even want to see it.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53But the swastika has a long and complex history.
0:00:55 > 0:01:00For thousands of years, this has been a religious symbol,
0:01:00 > 0:01:05with a sacred past. A sign of benevolence, luck and good fortune.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13And for the nearly one billion Hindus around the world today,
0:01:13 > 0:01:18it lies at the heart of their religious practices and beliefs.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22For me personally, the swastika means hope. It means purity,
0:01:22 > 0:01:24it means auspiciousness.
0:01:24 > 0:01:30The swastika will be used by Hindus to evoke a sense of the sacred.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34To draw the attention of the divine to human undertakings.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43But because of its recent past, in the West, the Hindu swastika
0:01:43 > 0:01:47has sometimes provoked hostility.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50I've got a tattoo of a swastika on my lip.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53And when I got it done, the tattoo artist was a little taken aback
0:01:53 > 0:01:56and he was like, "Ah, Jew killer." And I said, "No."
0:01:58 > 0:02:02In the week when Hindus across Britain are celebrating
0:02:02 > 0:02:07the holy festival of Diwali, we tell the story of their sacred symbol.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11And we bring together members of the communities
0:02:11 > 0:02:14for whom it has the most potent meaning,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17to see if a new experience of the swastika
0:02:17 > 0:02:20could break down long-held prejudices.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23It's very beautiful. I mean, it's obviously quite different,
0:02:23 > 0:02:25being in gold compared to red and black.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Can Hindus restore the reputation of a symbol
0:02:30 > 0:02:33they believe invokes the blessings of the divine?
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Sunday morning.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Chalfont Cricket Club in leafy Buckinghamshire.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53A place associated with English teas
0:02:53 > 0:02:56and the gentle competitiveness of the weekend sportsman.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Certainly not a place you'd expect to see a symbol
0:03:01 > 0:03:06most commonly associated with the fascist regimes of pre-war Germany.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10But today is an exception.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22The club is host to a Hindu wedding celebration,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25in which the swastika plays a vital role.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35As the guests congregate and the happy couple arrive,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38the Hindu priest has an important task...
0:03:43 > 0:03:46..Placing a swastika in front of the sacred area
0:03:46 > 0:03:48where the couple will sit during the ceremony.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52And the meaning of this swastika
0:03:52 > 0:03:55is a world away from that of Nazi Germany.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58It's a diagram.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02The moment you look at the diagram, it should invoke the peace
0:04:02 > 0:04:03within you.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05So it has the swastika.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10"Swasti" means well-being, "swastika" - asking the well-being of the gods.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16A statue of their elephant-headed god, Ganesh,
0:04:16 > 0:04:19is placed at the centre of the swastika.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Ganesh is the remover of all obstacles.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25And as the priest rotates him,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28it's believed any hindrances to the ceremony are removed.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34For Hindus, the swastika isn't only a sacred power for good,
0:04:34 > 0:04:38but an essential element of any rite of passage.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41Ramesh Pattni is the father of the groom.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49The word "swastik" actually comes from the Sanskrit word
0:04:49 > 0:04:51for a state of auspiciousness.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58Wherever any ceremony is performed - and Hindus have got 16 ceremonies
0:04:58 > 0:05:00during the lifetime, and each one of them
0:05:00 > 0:05:05will have one way or the other in which the swastik is represented.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08In the wedding, the swastik, it is the most important.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Because the wedding ceremony marks a transition
0:05:11 > 0:05:13from one period of life to another.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17HE CHANTS
0:05:19 > 0:05:21And therefore all the auspiciousness is required.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23Warm the hands and get up! Yes!
0:05:25 > 0:05:27It's the first exercise as wife and husband!
0:05:29 > 0:05:31As unlikely as it might seem to those not brought up
0:05:31 > 0:05:34in the Hindu faith, for the Hindus here today,
0:05:34 > 0:05:38a wedding without a swastika would be unusual.
0:05:38 > 0:05:42I now declare you wife and husband. May God bless you.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45You look beautiful. You'll live happily ever after.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47For this young couple,
0:05:47 > 0:05:51the swastika ensures their marriage is blessed by the gods.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56It's a far cry from its associations in the West.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Most western people when they see it,
0:06:01 > 0:06:05they see a Nazi German symbol.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10Shaunaka Rishi Das has been a Hindu priest for more than 30 years.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13It is interesting that Hindus themselves,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16they're brought up with the swastika, it's perfectly normal for them.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18You see all the children at the wedding,
0:06:18 > 0:06:20they're just seeing it from birth. Then they go to school
0:06:20 > 0:06:23and learn that the Nazis used it in this way.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27But you have to understand that here's a tradition that's ancient.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31And the Germans borrow it from a different culture and misuse it
0:06:31 > 0:06:34over less than two decades, and all of a sudden it develops
0:06:34 > 0:06:37an internationally bad reputation.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41HE CHANTS
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Of all the symbols produced by ancient and modern man,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47this is the most contradictory.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50And its origins are shrouded in mystery.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Images of the swastika have been found across the world.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02And the earliest examples date back thousands of years.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06Well, the swastika's one of those strange symbols that you find
0:07:06 > 0:07:08in lots of different cultures.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11You see it in China and Japan, you see it in Mongolia,
0:07:11 > 0:07:14you see it in the ancient Mediterranean world, in Greece,
0:07:14 > 0:07:18even over in Native American cultures and in the British Isles as well.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22But despite the swastika's prolific-ness,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25its original meaning is an enigma.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Perhaps it's just a simple, elegant geometry.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33Maybe it was a solar symbol.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37It's so universal that we can't really find a first point of use,
0:07:37 > 0:07:40it just has a kind of instinctive appeal across the world.
0:07:47 > 0:07:52Some of the most ancient swastikas were found here, in India.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59And over the centuries, it's been adopted across the Subcontinent
0:07:59 > 0:08:01by many different religions.
0:08:03 > 0:08:09Hindus, Buddhists and Jains all see it a holy symbol.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14It's displayed just about everywhere, to bring good fortune.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23And there's one time of year that it's specially prominent.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25At the Hindu festival of Diwali.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40It's a five day celebration to mark the Hindu New Year.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46Also known as the festival of lights,
0:08:46 > 0:08:49it marks the triumph of good over evil.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58And in India, the streets are a riot of noise and colour.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06The festival honours deities such as the goddess of wealth, Lakshmi,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10and so the swastika is painted on the account books
0:09:10 > 0:09:14for the new financial year, to ensure prosperity.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19But it's not just in the East that the swastika features
0:09:19 > 0:09:21in Diwali festivities.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31This is Neasden Temple in North West London.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36It's the spiritual home to thousands of Hindus.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41And every Diwali, the ladies of the temple
0:09:41 > 0:09:47spend hours making an incredible display, known as a rangoli,
0:09:47 > 0:09:51like this one, in which the swastika plays a central role.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56Rangoli patterns are literal forms of art
0:09:56 > 0:10:02and they're created by hand, generally by women who use rice
0:10:02 > 0:10:03or coloured rice.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Avni Chag has been celebrating Diwali here for most of her life.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14Diwali represents the festival of lights.
0:10:14 > 0:10:17If you go back to physics lessons, you'll always be taught
0:10:17 > 0:10:20how the spectrum of colours originates from white light.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27And I think that's completely honoured within these beautiful
0:10:27 > 0:10:31geometric patterns and these beautiful designs that are created
0:10:31 > 0:10:36during Diwali. And most commonly you will see the Hindu swastika.
0:10:36 > 0:10:41And for some it may mean prosperity, for some it may mean good luck.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44For me personally, the swastika means hope.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53For Hindus who've grown up with the swastika,
0:10:53 > 0:10:56finding out that this emblem of light has been used
0:10:56 > 0:10:59for the darkest of purposes, can be horrifying.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04I was pretty much born with the symbol surrounding me,
0:11:04 > 0:11:07and at special occasions,
0:11:07 > 0:11:09festivals, this symbol would be prevalent.
0:11:09 > 0:11:16And then when I finally started studying about the Second World War
0:11:16 > 0:11:19in history lessons at school, I freaked out.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33I saw the symbol and I was just completely gobsmacked.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43Seeing it in this textbook associated with the Holocaust, with genocide,
0:11:43 > 0:11:47with racial intolerance, was quite a shock.
0:11:47 > 0:11:52And I wondered how it could've been mutated from something so positive
0:11:52 > 0:11:54to something to so negative.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00So how did this sacred symbol come to symbolise
0:12:00 > 0:12:03one of the most evil regimes in history?
0:12:09 > 0:12:12The swastika's metamorphosis began with an archaeological dig
0:12:12 > 0:12:13in the 19th century.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21In 1874, excavations started at a site believed to be
0:12:21 > 0:12:24the ancient city of Troy in Turkey.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28They were led by a German businessman
0:12:28 > 0:12:30named Heinrich Schliemann.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35Schliemann was an adventurer and his real mission
0:12:35 > 0:12:39was to find the real Troy, the Troy of the Homeric epics.
0:12:40 > 0:12:45Now, as he dug, he found spheres. Strange spheres with an equator
0:12:45 > 0:12:49round them bearing the image of what we would call the swastika
0:12:49 > 0:12:53and plenty of fragments of pottery bearing swastikas.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57What Schliemann had uncovered was to have deadly consequences.
0:12:59 > 0:13:04His work would inadvertently lay the foundations for a new mythology
0:13:04 > 0:13:07of the swastika to be constructed.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11One which would transform it from a sacred symbol of benevolence
0:13:11 > 0:13:15into the Nazi emblem of the Aryan master race.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20Now, Schliemann didn't know what these symbols were.
0:13:20 > 0:13:23But there were scholars who were willing to interpret these objects
0:13:23 > 0:13:24and these symbols for him.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26One of these men was a man called Emile Burnouf.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Burnouf was a scholar of ancient Indian literature,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36and it was to a Hindu epic called the Rig Veda
0:13:36 > 0:13:40that he turned to try and make sense of Schliemann's find.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45In the Rig Vedas, there are a people called the Arias mentioned,
0:13:45 > 0:13:50and in the lexicon of the Rig Vedas, the word "swastika" is mentioned.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54And scholars like Burnouf put the swastika together with the Arias,
0:13:54 > 0:14:00and said, "Ah! This was the ancient symbol of these people, the Arias,
0:14:00 > 0:14:04"and these people were invaders, warriors, who came from the North,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08"who displaced the existing people of India.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12"And these were the same people who we find represented
0:14:12 > 0:14:14"in the pottery fragments of Troy."
0:14:17 > 0:14:21Two entirely unconnected mythologies were becoming one.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25The people of ancient Troy were being fused with the Aryans
0:14:25 > 0:14:27of the Hindu Rig Vedas.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31And the swastika was the symbol that Burnouf claimed united them.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37So, really, the swastika fragment became for pseudo-scholars
0:14:37 > 0:14:41like Burnouf, the perfect excuse to build a new mythology,
0:14:41 > 0:14:48and invent a single pan-European colonial warrior race
0:14:48 > 0:14:50using the swastika as their emblem.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57For Hitler, a symbol with such a mythology - albeit invented -
0:14:57 > 0:15:01was the perfect emblem for his ambitions for Germany.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04The Nazis were involved in this huge project of trying to create
0:15:04 > 0:15:06a new history for themselves.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10They weren't really happy with their association with Christian history
0:15:10 > 0:15:14because they saw that as having Hebrew, Jewish roots.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18And it was that notion of a history that was being kind of imagined
0:15:18 > 0:15:23out of these different symbols and sources that Hitler wanted to use
0:15:23 > 0:15:28to give the Nazi movement its own foundation.
0:15:33 > 0:15:39Within decades, the swastika had been ripped from its ancient religious roots,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42and become shorthand for the Nazis and their chilling agenda.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50It was perhaps the most successful example of cultural theft in history.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53When you look at the swastika,
0:15:53 > 0:15:57you don't think this is the symbol of Hinduism.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00No, the swastika means Nazism.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03It means evil, death and genocide.
0:16:06 > 0:16:11With its new connotations across Europe so entrenched, it seems unlikely
0:16:11 > 0:16:15that the Hindu symbol can ever rid itself of the shadow of Nazism.
0:16:17 > 0:16:24Especially, when for those who suffered directly in the Holocaust, it unlocks terrifying memories.
0:16:28 > 0:16:33I was taken into my first camp at 11 and a half.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39It was just a horrendous place.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47Arek Hersh lost 81 members of his family under the Nazis.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50SS men were there...
0:16:54 > 0:16:58..and they were beating people, and hanging people and...
0:16:58 > 0:17:00..just a few of us survived.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03But you see the swastika everywhere.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11I abhorred it, actually.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18I hated to look at it even...
0:17:21 > 0:17:23..because I suffered very much under it.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38And even for young Jews today, it's a symbol they still struggle with.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45I do shudder when I see it.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52It's something that is very infamous in the Jewish community.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56And it's something that I think it would be very difficult...to change.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05The Nazi theft of the Hindu sacred symbol changed
0:18:05 > 0:18:08the perception of the swastika in the west, forever.
0:18:11 > 0:18:12And yet at the time in India,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15it was something most Hindus were unaware of.
0:18:18 > 0:18:23The vast majority of Hindus especially in rural areas, mostly illiterate,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26obviously did not know for a very long time
0:18:26 > 0:18:28how it had been used by the Nazis.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33But for the educated classes, I think there was a sense of being appalled.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37And amongst Hindus today,
0:18:37 > 0:18:41feelings against the Nazis' theft of the swastika run high.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46Germany thought they can hijack this sacred symbol
0:18:46 > 0:18:47from the Vedic culture
0:18:47 > 0:18:52and use it you know to enforce their white supremacy and all that.
0:18:52 > 0:18:58And, people are very angry and upset that a sacred symbol so dear to them
0:18:58 > 0:19:01in their religion is hijacked by somebody like this.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08After the war, the feeling against the swastika was so strong,
0:19:08 > 0:19:11that in Germany and Poland, it was banned.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17And since then it's become shorthand, not for divine blessings,
0:19:17 > 0:19:19but for race hatred.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27It's a misappropriation that's had a real impact on Hindus today.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31The difficult thing is that the swastika that Hitler uses
0:19:31 > 0:19:37and the swastika that Indian culture uses, really do look a lot the same.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42Often the Indian swastika will have dots between the four arms,
0:19:42 > 0:19:47but there aren't any definite differences that you can always use to separate them out.
0:19:47 > 0:19:52And that can make it hard for people to distinguish which symbol they're looking at.
0:19:53 > 0:19:59And it's this confusion, in a society with little understanding of Hinduism,
0:19:59 > 0:20:03that's led to the Hindu symbol inadvertently finding itself under attack.
0:20:07 > 0:20:13In 2007 German MEPs proposed a ban of the public use of swastikas
0:20:13 > 0:20:15right across the European Union.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21It was a proposition that upset many Hindus.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25The British Hindus woke up to this
0:20:25 > 0:20:30and they carried out a campaign to bring awareness
0:20:30 > 0:20:32to the members of the British Parliament...
0:20:34 > 0:20:39..to make them understand how sacred this swastika is to the Hindu faith.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46The British Hindu response was that this was a Eurocentric proposal.
0:20:49 > 0:20:53It wasn't taking into account the bigger picture.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Millions of people use this symbol on a daily basis.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02What had started out as an anxiety about Nazism,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05had turned into a fight for religious freedom.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11If Europe wants to be seen as a truly liberal society,
0:21:11 > 0:21:15then it has to really be liberal in the bigger picture.
0:21:16 > 0:21:22It has to let go of its history maybe...to look at how this symbol has been used in the world
0:21:22 > 0:21:29in such a positive way for thousands of years, compared to the European historical aberration
0:21:29 > 0:21:30that needs to be recognised
0:21:30 > 0:21:34but also needs to be balanced with the bigger picture.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39The reaction stopped the ban in its tracks...
0:21:41 > 0:21:46..and British Hindus were free to display their sacred symbol once more.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50But even though it's not illegal in Britain to show the swastika,
0:21:50 > 0:21:56Hindus who do display it, sometimes face misunderstandings and even insults.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00One of the things about Hindus is we don't always explain
0:22:00 > 0:22:06ourselves very well and children if they take into school
0:22:06 > 0:22:10something which displays the swastika, if their friends
0:22:10 > 0:22:15and even the teachers don't know the meaning, they sometimes get chastised
0:22:15 > 0:22:21or even worse, you know bullied, for being associated with Nazism.
0:22:22 > 0:22:27Bharti Taylor spends much of her time teaching children about Hinduism.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31It's a holy symbol for us, whether you draw it other way or this way.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36For her, the key to Hindus being able to show the sign without fear, is knowledge.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42I think we should have more education so that everybody understands
0:22:42 > 0:22:47that the symbol is meant to be for the good, not an evil symbol.
0:22:49 > 0:22:53But can Western, European perceptions really be changed?
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Well, where better to start, than with the community for whom
0:23:00 > 0:23:05the swastika holds the greatest fears...the Jews.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10Today, Josh Dubell, a member of a London synagogue,
0:23:10 > 0:23:13has been invited to the local Hindu Temple in Neasden.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20The Hindus want to show him the beautiful rangoli they've created.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24and to talk to him about their connection with the swastika,
0:23:24 > 0:23:28in the hope that he might begin to see it in a different light.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34If I saw a swastika on the wall in my local area,
0:23:34 > 0:23:38I would report it straight away as an anti-semitic attack.
0:23:38 > 0:23:44It's something that is synonymous with erm...with hate crimes.
0:23:48 > 0:23:53I can understand that when Josh comes he'll come with some idea of the swastika,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57and so it'll be interesting to see how he feels when he does see it,
0:23:57 > 0:23:59when it's portrayed within the temple.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07I don't know that much about it as a Hindu symbol.
0:24:07 > 0:24:12So I really hope to learn what it means to the Hindu faith.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Avni is going to show him round.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31Hello. Hello. Hi, Josh, nice to meet you.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34Nice to meet you too, how are you? I'm good, welcome to Neasden Temple.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Thank you, very happy to be here. Yeah?
0:24:37 > 0:24:42And the first swastika Josh encounters appears before he even gets inside.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49The main symbol that I'd like to point out to you is on the doors.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52And that's the swastika. Ah, yes.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56And I guess what that represents is that it's a sign of welcome,
0:24:56 > 0:25:01and it's welcoming and wishing them good luck as they enter the temple to pray. Mmm.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05It's really interesting. I mean me and my people seeing that
0:25:05 > 0:25:08symbol in the past hasn't really provided me with that luck, but...
0:25:08 > 0:25:11Especially as defined as you can see it here, yeah.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16How do you feel about it?
0:25:17 > 0:25:19It's, it's just a little erm...
0:25:20 > 0:25:24..taken aback a little bit by the erm...seeing it like this.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28It's obviously quite different being gold compared to red and black.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32But it's erm...it's really, really beautiful.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34Shall we go on in? Yeah, sure.
0:25:38 > 0:25:43The swastikas on the doors had a real impact on Josh, and what
0:25:43 > 0:25:45lies inside is even more striking.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50How do you feel now seeing this?
0:25:50 > 0:25:52I mean this is more in red now. Oh, right.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59So this is called a rangoli and I guess it's an expression of worship.
0:25:59 > 0:26:04And you'll find it at times of really big religious occasions or ceremonies.
0:26:04 > 0:26:08The swastika represents prosperity and good luck and wealth.
0:26:11 > 0:26:16How do you feel like in terms of the shape or is it something that's different?
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Obviously to me, it's the most anti-Jewish symbol that
0:26:19 > 0:26:25I've ever seen in terms of the death of a lot of people in my religion.
0:26:25 > 0:26:29And er...I mean it seems a little bit less harsh.
0:26:29 > 0:26:31OK, yeah, because of the curl? Yeah, I think so.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33You see, when I was growing up,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37I always had this positive view of the swastika,
0:26:37 > 0:26:42so I never understood how it could mean something, you know, that it may mean to you.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49As Josh's visit draws to an end, he's got a lot to think about.
0:26:50 > 0:26:55I was taken aback on the doors but now you talk about it a little bit more,
0:26:55 > 0:26:58and that's why I think dialogue is really, really important.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02We talk a lot about what separates us, but hopefully we can
0:27:02 > 0:27:05use this symbol to come together and talk about the things that we have in common.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13Avni and Josh's experiences of the swastika are worlds apart,
0:27:13 > 0:27:17but their meeting has started to break down long-held prejudice.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23It's still very, very strange and a little alien to me,
0:27:23 > 0:27:28but it's actually changed some of my opinions about the swastika.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32Maybe it can be used for good.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40I think Josh's visit is like a first step in the Jewish community
0:27:40 > 0:27:44coming to understand that the swastika means so many different things.
0:27:44 > 0:27:50He understood that it doesn't necessarily have to mean one thing, universally.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52It can mean different things for different people.
0:27:56 > 0:28:02I don't know whether the Jewish community will feel the same way as I do,
0:28:02 > 0:28:06but you know what, hopefully we can really start to educate ourselves that this symbol
0:28:06 > 0:28:08can be used for something positive.
0:28:14 > 0:28:20Perhaps this ancient Hindu symbol, which for so long has held such different meanings
0:28:20 > 0:28:24for these two religious communities, might actually bring them closer together.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31And as Hindus across Britain prepare to celebrate Diwali,
0:28:31 > 0:28:36the festival that marks the banishment of darkness and the coming of light,
0:28:36 > 0:28:41maybe it's a first step towards the swastika being reclaimed for good.
0:28:42 > 0:28:46I think over time the swastika will be redeemed in Europe.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50Just because something in one context looks bad doesn't mean we slam it.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53We have to look at the bigger picture always.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55So the change will come, it'll just take time.
0:28:57 > 0:29:02Wouldn't it be nice if one day there are people who saw the swastika being used in public
0:29:02 > 0:29:05and said, "oh that's an Indian symbol.
0:29:05 > 0:29:10"Hindus use it to signify auspiciousness and blessing."
0:29:10 > 0:29:13And when they later come to see the Nazi use of the symbol,
0:29:13 > 0:29:17they think, "Gosh that's horrific, that's really inappropriate."
0:29:17 > 0:29:22If we can get to that point then finally Hitler will really have been defeated.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd